Things You Don't Expect to Hear
Jms at B5
Bruce Boxleitner earlier in the day about the year 2 DVD. In the course of
that conversation, Bruce mentioned something that Doug in turn mentioned to me.
To wit:
Bruce had been at the White House about a month ago, in the company of wife
Melissa Gilbert, president of the Screen Actors Guild, for a discussion with
some of the functionaries there concerning acting roles moving north of the
Canadian border.
As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of the meeting the
door oens and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the Republican Party and power
behind the White House throne -- comes in. He says (paraphrased from memory)
to Melissa, "I hope you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
Then there's a pause, and he adds....
"And the President thinks so too."
Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to be
back on my feet by Spring, latest.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2002 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
John Hinge
> As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of
> the meeting the door oens and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the
> Republican Party and power behind the White House throne -- comes
> in.
> He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big
> science fiction fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science
> fiction television series *ever*."
>
I wonder, have he even *seen* B5 ?
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
> "And the President thinks so too."
>
we *are* talking about the pretzel swallower right ?
> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully
> expect to be back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>
They must have totally switched off their little minds while
watching.. I see so many parrallels to current events that
I'm kinda antsy, and I live all the way over here in Denmark
(where Amsterdam and Germany lies according to some New Yorkers
interviewed earlier today in the radio. Occasion being that
a Danish copseries won an International Emmy for best Dramaseries)
I have this impression of mr. Shrubbery as being the most scary
thing to have happened for some time, and the idea of him liking
B5 and still doing the things he does spins my mind..
--
John Hinge - shayera / .sPOOn.
On usenet I represent no one but myself.
"Buffy I love you...... Oh God No!" Spike, Buffy tVs
http://www.spoon.dvd-klub.dk
Ed Ryder
the rest of Crusade without interference could you? :o)
(A mini series about the Telepath War would be nice too)
Ed.
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com...
Svetislav Soldat
learn :)
Jan
>He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science
>fiction
>fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series
>*ever*."
>
>Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
>"And the President thinks so too."
>
>Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to be
>back on my feet by Spring, latest.
Very cool!
Jan
Raven Woman
>>>>"And the President thinks so too."
Now THAT'S something to make the hair on one's toes curl!
Congratulations!!
Jenn
Jeremy Billones
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to be
>back on my feet by Spring, latest.
But you're still not voting for him :)
--
Jeremy Billones "You have to learn *why* things work on a starship."
some guy
Joseph DeMartino
Joe
Brian Hulett
news:20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com...
Careful though, JMS, before you know it some idiots will be referring to Al
Quaeda as the Shadows, and giving you credit for inspiring the pres to go
after the bad guys like Sheridan. I can hear it now in the Oval Office,
referring to allies dragging their feet: "Why don't they get off their
encouter-suited butts and DO something?!" LOL
--
---Brian Hulett, Publishing Editor
Fantasy Football Digest & Leagues
http://thewinningdrive.com
"Work well. Laugh hard. Play fair. Love completely."
Claudia Mastroianni
: He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
: fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
: Then there's a pause, and he adds....
: "And the President thinks so too."
TIPS *was* based on Nightwatch!
But this is pretty cool. Reminds me of Arlo Guthrie's anniversary
intro to Alice's Restaurant, wherein it is revealed that the Nixons
had a copy of the record. And y'know, the song runs 18 minutes and
20 seconds long, just like a certain famous gap....
Claudia
--
"PLAYBOY SEEKS PICTURES FOR THE WOMEN OF ENRON."
And I thought "that can't be real" but I'm not particularly prone
to hallucinations and if I was, I'd like to think they wouldn't be
so damn boring. -- kjc
SamusekTDS
gloating and feeling happy, full and bloated with power and pride!
But since it's not me :-) and since I'm an annoying and cynical schmoe
(and not to mention-- hypocritical) I have to ask if that's really a
compliment? I've long considered B5 as "thinking person's Sci-Fi" and
GWB is many things but a--
Ahhh you know where I'm going with this one, don't you?
(Maybe it's 'cause I'm Canadian)
---
Sam.
Andrew Swallow
news:20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com...
That is good news. There is sufficient politics in Babylon 5 that Karl Rove
may actually enjoy watching.
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
> "And the President thinks so too."
>
Nice, if suspicious, to hear. Lets hope that Bush takes Sheridan rather
than Clarke as his role model.
> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to
be
> back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>
> jms
>
Get well soon. <g>
Congratulations to all the producers and actors in Babylon 5.
Andrew Swallow
John Hinge
> As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of
> the meeting the door oens and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the
> Republican Party and power behind the White House throne -- comes
> in.
> He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big
> science fiction fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science
> fiction television series *ever*."
>
I wonder, have he even *seen* B5 ?
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
> "And the President thinks so too."
>
we *are* talking about the pretzel swallower right ?
> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully
> expect to be back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>
Mac Breck
ROFL!
--
Mac Breck
http://www.scifi.com/crusade/
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1164
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1490
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/2088
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1455
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/2416
http://www.scifi.com/brimstone/
Daniel
>
>
I thought he could only count to 4?
BoredGuy
Don't believe you.. otherwise Bush would be hanging out in here as well :)
Truthfully, well done... if only some other high profile people come forward
liking B5 we can think of the endless campaign posters for them :)
(Hope your on your feet in time to do commentarys for Season 2 DVD's :D )
Boredguy
Rob
good Morden, perhaps WB will be motivated to get off their blue-suited butts
and produce the rest of the DVD's expeditiously and with highest quality.
(But maybe I've inhaled too much dust).
****************************************
"Imagination is more important than knowledge, for knowledge is limited
while imagination embraces the entire world."
-Albert Einstein
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com...
Joseph DeMartino
the next set, and that the prints for the 2nd through 5th season will be
free of blemishes? (I can just hear it now, "Damn! This set has two
copies of Disc 4, too. And two of the things are scratched! And what's
with those white blobs in 'Midnight on the Firing Line'? Who runs that
company? Get that guy on the phone!")
Better still, if they like the show that much and respect your writing,
maybe somebody can nudge the White House into expanding the current
corporate scandal hunt to include *Hollywood's* accounting practices.
Isn't anybody up there curious about an industry whose products have
never turned a profit in nearly a hundred years (according to their
accountants) but where everybody still makes money? Who knows? You
might even see some money from "B5" beyond your original writing and
producing fees, and steadily-declining writer's royalties. <g>
In the meantime I'll keep an eye out for news stories about an SEC
investigation of AOL/Time-Warner, which I expect to surface shortly
after the Prez gets his third DVD set with discs floating around loose
in it. <g>
Regards,
Joe
Steve
> So I was talking to Doug Netter this afternoon, who had in turn spoken with
> Bruce Boxleitner earlier in the day about the year 2 DVD.
I'm already a happy man, and this is just the first sentence. I know
it's probably too early to read anything into this, but I'm hoping this
means that Bruce is up for a featurette or (even better) a commentary on
the second season box set.
> In the course of that conversation, Bruce mentioned something that Doug in
> turn mentioned to me.
>
> To wit:
>
> Bruce had been at the White House about a month ago, in the company of wife
> Melissa Gilbert, president of the Screen Actors Guild, for a discussion with
> some of the functionaries there concerning acting roles moving north of the
> Canadian border.
>
> As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of the meeting the
> door oens and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the Republican Party and power
> behind the White House throne -- comes in. He says (paraphrased from memory)
> to Melissa, "I hope you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
>
> He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
> fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
That's just too damn cool! Now let's see if government backing can get
us a new series ;o)
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
> "And the President thinks so too."
I never though I'd see those two words together in a sentence without
some kind of negative qualifier in there as well, like "doesn't".
> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to be
> back on my feet by Spring, latest.
I've been thinking of taking up hibernation myself. Seems like a good
way to conserve money! :o)
-Steve
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>>
>> "And the President thinks so too."
>>
>we *are* talking about the pretzel swallower right ?
I must admit, George Bush just went right up in my estimation :o) Here
in UK, he is usually caricatured as being a moron (getting names and
countries wrong all the time, making up long words in a vain attempt to
sound intelligent, accidentally invading countries etc.). But if he's a
B5 fan, he must have *some* redeeming features.
Maybe he could pass a law making it illegal for TV companies to stop B5
spin-off series after 13 episodes?
>> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully
>> expect to be back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>>
>They must have totally switched off their little minds while
>watching.. I see so many parrallels to current events that
>I'm kinda antsy, and I live all the way over here in Denmark
I felt exactly the same when I heard that.
>I have this impression of mr. Shrubbery as being the most scary
>thing to have happened for some time, and the idea of him liking
>B5 and still doing the things he does spins my mind..
I don't actually think the man is that scary. I think he's got some
scary people behind him, pulling the strings, but Mr. Rhododendron
himself is probably OK on a personal level - a bit like Londo was OK on
a personal level.
My biggest concern about him (apart from his desire to invade a
practically third-world country) is his anti-environmentalist politics.
How can we expect a man who made his fortune from oil to be objective in
such matters?
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Boy, I've never seen that guy so down... or ever before"
- a janitor from Futurama
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
wendy
>
>
> He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
> fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
>
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
> "And the President thinks so too."
>
> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to be
> back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>
Gosh, my father was right -- a stopped clock is still right twice a
day.
Now I want to know which character the president most identifies with
(and why do I fear it might be Londo?)
wendy
Edo Steinberg
turns out that he sees himself as the leader of the Army of Light
against the forces of Chaos (Radical Islam), and especially the
Shadows (Iraq and Bin Laden) and their minions the Drakh (the smaller
terror groups), and what inspired him wasn't only his conservative
religious convictions, but also and maybe mainly, Babylon 5?
"I wanna be the kind of leader JMS would write about, fellas. Oh, and
excuse me Condi and Rummy, I have to make time from the war plans to
watch some of the Season 1 DVD I just bought with taxpayers' money."
jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote in message news:<20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com>...
> As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of the meeting the
> door oens and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the Republican Party and power
> behind the White House throne -- comes in. He says (paraphrased from memory)
> to Melissa, "I hope you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
>
> He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
> fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
>
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
> "And the President thinks so too."
Here's a way to make you feel better - maybe it's just a ploy by Karl
Rove to get B5 fans to vote for Republicans (after all, a month ago,
when he said that to Bruce, was right before the midterm elections).
> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to be
> back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> (all message content (c) 2002 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
> permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
> and don't send me story ideas)
PS: Just an odd thought. If Bush wins the 2004 elections, he'll start
his term in Jan 2005. Bush 2005 - B5. Freaky.
John Behling
thought I'd read. When I first saw this, everything went black, but
once I regained consciousness, I had a thought, everyone needs a role
model and I guess George W. Bush must have just *loved* President
Clark.
Does this mean you get to be John Sheridan?
-John
Jim Royal
<jms...@aol.com> wrote:
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
> "And the President thinks so too."
Well...
That certainly exaplins the Homeland Security Act and the Total
Information Awareness project. ** shudder **
Methinks he might be taking inspiration from Mr. Morden...
--
Jim Royal <jimr...@canada.com>
"Understanding is a three-edged sword"
http://JimRoyal.com
Pelzo63
>He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
>fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
>
>Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
>"And the President thinks so too."
well, that answers the question that popped up here a few months ago.
...Chris, avoiding ANY political discussions for now.
Michael J Wise
> Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect
> to be back on my feet by Spring, latest.
Oh, The Horror, The Horror....
(;-)
You see?
Even people you don't like, like your work.
Well, with the possible exception of some who live in Atlanta.
Aloha mai Nai`a!
--
"Please have your Internet License http://kapu.net/~mjwise/
and Usenet Registration handy..."
Matthew Vincent
>Bruce had been at the White House about a month ago, in the
>company of wife Melissa Gilbert, president of the Screen Actors
>Guild, for a discussion with some of the functionaries there
>concerning acting roles moving north of the Canadian border.
>
>As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of the
>meeting the door [opens] and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the
>Republican Party and power behind the White House throne -- comes
>in. He says (paraphrased from memory) to Melissa, "I hope
>you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
>
>He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a
>big science fiction fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best
>science fiction television series *ever*."
>
>Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
>"And the President thinks so too."
There are a whole bunch of different things I could conceivably say
here, but most of them are probably inappropriate... so perhaps it's
best if I keep my big mouth shut for once. ;)
Matthew
Febo
>turns out that he sees himself as the leader of the Army of Light
>against the forces of Chaos (Radical Islam), and especially the
>Shadows (Iraq and Bin Laden) and their minions the Drakh (the smaller
I always thought of Bush as a Drazi. remeber in tyhe 5th season, when the
Drazi decided that they wanted to randomly attack their neighbors everytime one
of their ships were attacked?
It's too bad the UN doesn't have a White Star Fleet, so that, like Sheridan did
with the Drazi, we can take Dubya up to a viewscreen and show him "Our forces
watching your forces."
Febo
Voxwoman
Michael J Wise wrote:
> Jms at B5 wrote:
>
>
>>Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect
>>to be back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>>
>
> Oh, The Horror, The Horror....
>
> (;-)
>
> You see?
> Even people you don't like, like your work.
And I just remembered that Charles Manson liked the works of Robert
Heinlein....
Zar
Just when I thought I had the universe figured out.
Owell, back to the drawing board.
Zar
Kathryn Huxtable
> And I just remembered that Charles Manson liked the works of Robert
> Heinlein....
"Liked"? Isn't Manson still alive?
-K, quibbling again
Richard Tibbetts
Michael J Wise <mjw...@kapu.net> wrote on Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:54:09
-1000:
[...]
> Even people you don't like, like your work.
> Well, with the possible exception of some who live in Atlanta.
They probably did like it, but just didn't think it was "commercial"
enough :-<
--
Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
Lisa Coulter
> that conversation, Bruce mentioned something that Doug in turn mentioned to me.
>
> To wit:
>
> Melissa Gilbert, president of the Screen Actors Guild, for a discussion with
> some of the functionaries there concerning acting roles moving north of the
> Canadian border.
>
> As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of the meeting the
> behind the White House throne -- comes in. He says (paraphrased from memory)
> to Melissa, "I hope you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
>
> He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
> fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
>
> Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
>
> back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>
That's really amazing!
See, guys, Bush may be better than some of you think. :)
Lisa Coulter
Lisa Coulter
> First time I agree whole heartedly with Bush. Won't it be odd if it
> turns out that he sees himself as the leader of the Army of Light
> against the forces of Chaos (Radical Islam), and especially the
> Shadows (Iraq and Bin Laden) and their minions the Drakh (the smaller
> terror groups), and what inspired him wasn't only his conservative
> religious convictions, but also and maybe mainly, Babylon 5?
>
> "I wanna be the kind of leader JMS would write about, fellas. Oh, and
> excuse me Condi and Rummy, I have to make time from the war plans to
> watch some of the Season 1 DVD I just bought with taxpayers' money."
>
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote in message news:<20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com>...
> > As they're talking, in a long conference room, in the middle of the meeting the
> > door oens and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the Republican Party and power
> > behind the White House throne -- comes in. He says (paraphrased from memory)
> > to Melissa, "I hope you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
> >
> > He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction
> > fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
> >
> > Then there's a pause, and he adds....
> >
> > "And the President thinks so too."
>
> Here's a way to make you feel better - maybe it's just a ploy by Karl
> Rove to get B5 fans to vote for Republicans (after all, a month ago,
> when he said that to Bruce, was right before the midterm elections).
>
Um - hate to tell you this, but some of us already do. Sorry to mess
with your prejudices... And BTW Jerry Doyle is definitely a
Republican, and from what I can tell Boxleitner is too - he supported
Doyle's run as a Republican for Congress.
Lisa Coulter
David Williams
"Kathryn Huxtable" <kat...@kathrynhuxtable.org> wrote in message
news:n0nqb7...@kathrynhuxtable.org...
Yes, but it would be preferable to forget him, to let him rot in prison
until he dies, leaving him symbolically dead. Just like
"the-man-we-do-not-name" who killed John Lennon in order to become famous.
However, that won't happen. As with any sensationalist story, on slow news
days, the ratings-starved media love to drag out old Charley (and Squeaky,
et al.), dust him off, and do a re-hash of the whole affair. Sometimes it's
enough to make you chew your own foot off...
-David W.
Gunnar René Øie
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
[This is a re-post. The first post disappeared into a glitch in space-time
and might suddenly re-appear.]
If this conversation took place on "the West Wing", I would have believed
it a thousand times more than this "nobody sits" nonsense. (A real
show-stopper that one.)
The guy who spoke to Bruce was a Science Fition fan, but is GWB too? If B5
is the only science fiction the President has seen/read, and just a couple
of episodes, then his opinion about what is the best SF show carries no
more weight than his taste for broccoli does to farmers. On the other
hand, what he saw, he must have liked, so this might be interesting after
all. Let's hope he, and Karl Rove, got some positive influence from it.
Arthur C. Clarke: "Politicians should read science fiction, not westerns
and detective stories."
And now for some sillyness:
Perhaps time to do something like this with one of the Babylon 5
book/video covers and posters:
http://www.theforce.net/humor/pics/madmag.jpg
The Shadow Within? To dream in the city of sorrows? A call to arms?
Perhaps somebody with a lot of time and video equipment can even redo one
of the Babylon 5 introductions that have pictures of the cast, and replace
them in the same manner?
My only demand is that if somebody makes a "GWB is bad" version, they must
make sure a "GWB is good" version is made as well :-)
As much as I would have liked the electoral college abolished, and hoped
for Gore to win the election, this constant bickering about Bush
"stealing" the election is so infinately boringgggggggggggggagshfhfdh .
Oops! Fell asleep at keyboard. >:-P
It's good to be vigilant about your own government, but I think it's
a bit silly and/or premature to call Bush a new Clark. (But then I'm not
on the "recieving end" of things.)
Perhaps Bush is a Vorlon? You know, they attacked those who harbored the
Shadows. And talked funny.
--
Gunnar René Øie
Possessor of the new-forged Master Ring starting 2005. Fear!
Kathryn Huxtable
> "Kathryn Huxtable" <kat...@kathrynhuxtable.org> wrote in message
> news:n0nqb7...@kathrynhuxtable.org...
> > Voxwoman <voxw...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > > And I just remembered that Charles Manson liked the works of
> > > Robert Heinlein....
> >
> > "Liked"? Isn't Manson still alive?
> >
> > -K, quibbling again
>
> Yes, but it would be preferable to forget him, to let him rot in prison
> until he dies, leaving him symbolically dead. Just like
> "the-man-we-do-not-name" who killed John Lennon in order to become famous.
I remember his name, unfortunately.
> However, that won't happen. As with any sensationalist story, on slow news
> days, the ratings-starved media love to drag out old Charley (and Squeaky,
> et al.), dust him off, and do a re-hash of the whole affair. Sometimes it's
> enough to make you chew your own foot off...
Don't do that.
-K
David Williams
"Kathryn Huxtable" <kat...@kathrynhuxtable.org> wrote in message
> > et al.), dust him off, and do a re-hash of the whole affair. Sometimes
it's
> > enough to make you chew your own foot off...
>
> Don't do that.
>
> -K
Sigh
I may just have to if I put it in my mouth again. (see the Re: ATN: JMS -
Why no bloopers on DVDs ? thread...)
-David W.
(...going to bed early tonight)
Edo Steinberg
> with your prejudices... And BTW Jerry Doyle is definitely a
> Republican, and from what I can tell Boxleitner is too - he supported
> Doyle's run as a Republican for Congress.
For some reason, my first reply to this didn't get through, so here it
is again.
I never said there are no Republican B5 fans. B5 fandom, just like any
other group of people, has both Democrats and Republicans alike. And,
like any other group, it also has undecided voters.
Bye,
Edo
Aisling Willow Grey
As well as independents who vote based on individual merit, or
principle, or any number of things rather than party affiliation. Hey,
I'd like to think I'm not the only of us here who voted for Ralph in 2000!
Although...now that I'm thinking about it, I'm a little concerned about
having voted Green. This could cause me some trouble with the Purples...
<ducking the NBS on my way out>
Aisling
flet...@post.queensu.ca
> I never said there are no Republican B5 fans. B5 fandom, just like any
> other group of people, has both Democrats and Republicans alike. And,
> like any other group, it also has undecided voters.
style of system. You don't see democracts and republicans in many other
countries besides the US. :)
Mac Breck
news:3DF101A7...@fjordstone.com...
> >>Edo Steinberg wrote:
>
> > lisac...@hotmail.com (Lisa Coulter) wrote in message
> >
> >>Um - hate to tell you this, but some of us already do. Sorry to mess
> >>with your prejudices... And BTW Jerry Doyle is definitely a
> >>Republican, and from what I can tell Boxleitner is too - he supported
> >>Doyle's run as a Republican for Congress.
> >>
> >
> > For some reason, my first reply to this didn't get through, so here it
> > is again.
> >
> > I never said there are no Republican B5 fans. B5 fandom, just like any
> > other group of people, has both Democrats and Republicans alike. And,
> > like any other group, it also has undecided voters.<<
>
>
> As well as independents who vote based on individual merit, or
> principle, or any number of things rather than party affiliation.
And some Republicans and Democrats vote based on "individual merit, or
principle, or any number of things rather than party affiliation." in
general elections.
--
Mac Breck
http://www.scifi.com/crusade/
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1164
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1490
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/2088
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1455
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/2416
http://www.scifi.com/brimstone/
Sam Black
> countries besides the US. :)
Probably because there aren't all that many democratic republics...
-------
- sam Sometimes the best solution to morale problems
is just to fire all of the unhappy people...
Sam Black
> principle, or any number of things rather than party affiliation." in
> general elections.
Alas, that number is all too small on both sides of the aisle. If only more
people did that...
Simo Aaltonen
show Bush likes. As an admirer of Mr. Straczynski's works, I feel dirty.
As Sheridan said, there is a difference between the office of the
president and the person holding that office. So while it's interesting
to learn that the current US president likes a quality show, it's
disturbing to learn that Bush, the individual holding the office of the
president, someone who represents such conservative, destructive
policies, enjoys such an antithetically (in comparison to him) *wise*
show as Babylon 5. I mean, if he's seen enough of the series to grasp the
overall story arc (which is, unfortunately, doubtful), one can only
question the extent to which he actually understood what he was
seeing--what the series was *saying*.
Congratulations on one hand, then, Joe, but concerned well-wishing on
the other. I'd hate to see B5, no matter via how remote a connection, be
associated in any permanent way with George Bush, Jr.
-Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
(simo...@cc.jyu.fi)
--
Gary007Seven
>Bruce Boxleitner earlier in the day about the year 2 DVD. In the course of
>that conversation, Bruce mentioned something that Doug in turn mentioned to
>me.
>
>To wit:
>
>Bruce had been at the White House about a month ago, in the company of wife
>Melissa Gilbert, president of the Screen Actors Guild, for a discussion with
>some of the functionaries there concerning acting roles moving north of the
>Canadian border.
>
>the
>door oens and Karl Rove -- main strategist for the Republican Party and power
>behind the White House throne -- comes in. He says (paraphrased from memory)
>to Melissa, "I hope you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
>
>He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science
>fiction
>fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series
>*ever*."
>
>Then there's a pause, and he adds....
>
>"And the President thinks so too."
>
>back on my feet by Spring, latest.
>
> jms
>
ROTFL - LMAO!!!
You see, Joe --proof that you've got the guy (along with probably the
rest of them too) all wrong!
Ahh, that's truly Rich!! I wish I had seen this one a bit sooner --I needed the
laugh!
Edo Steinberg
> > You don't see democracts and republicans in many other
> > countries besides the US. :)
>
> Probably because there aren't all that many democratic republics...
>
It doesn't have anything to do with that. Although there really aren't
that many democratic republics around the world, even those countries
who are democracies don't have parties called Democrats and
Republicans. The UK (not a republic, but still a democracy) has Labour
and Conservatives, as well as Liberal Democrats. Germany has Social
Democrats and Christian Democrats, Israel has Avoda (meaning Labour)
and Likud (meaning Unity) and so on and so on...
By the way, I was referring to US B5 fans (as a dual US-Israeli
citizen who has lived most his life in Israel, I should know other
countries don't have Dems and GOP) and I know there are more than just
R's and D's, also independents, greens, libertarians and an endless
list of other small parties. Just didn't want to waste the time of
those reading my message with a never-ending list of all the
possibilities.
I wonder if Ariel Sharon or Amram Mitzna are Babylon 5 fans. If an
Israeli politician will say something about B5, it might help me
decide who the hell to vote for. Right now all the parties are either
too hawkish or too dovish. Nothing in the middle.
Bye,
Edo
PS: I was kidding about voting for a politician who likes B5. In
Israel, unlike what happens a lot in the States, the vote is on the
issues, not on the looks, peronality and hobbies of the candidates.
Kathryn Huxtable
> PS: I was kidding about voting for a politician who likes B5. In
> Israel, unlike what happens a lot in the States, the vote is on the
> issues, not on the looks, peronality and hobbies of the candidates.
Just you wait. The US is in the process of exporting its system of
voting for candidates on the basis of anything *but* their stands on
issues to the rest of the world. ;-)
-K
Andrew Swallow
I suspect that the British are about to get over the problem of allowing
political spin to be confused with reality. The spin doctor's job ends
at the launch party. The policy woks have to start work on devising
sensible policies and writing viable laws. Government ministers have
to choose appropriate actions (frequently unpopular) and progress
chase them. The failure of the cover-up of high unemployment,
deteriorating government finances and policy misses will be noticed.
Andrew Swallow
Otto Martin
>Oh, great. Now people will go around saying B5 is the science fiction
>show Bush likes. As an admirer of Mr. Straczynski's works, I feel dirty.
And now I feel dirty because a Finnish person is saying such stupid
things... :-)
>it's disturbing to learn that Bush, the individual holding the office of
>the president, someone who represents such conservative, destructive
>policies, enjoys such an antithetically (in comparison to him) *wise*
>show as Babylon 5. I mean, if he's seen enough of the series to grasp
>the overall story arc (which is, unfortunately, doubtful), one can only
>question the extent to which he actually understood what he was
>seeing--what the series was *saying*.
We have very little information on what George W. Bush actually thinks
of the show, only that a person close to him said that he likes it.
This could mean he likes the pretty colorful battles in space.
This could mean he likes the fact that the bright-eyed and clearly
american-values-upholding humans "win".
This could even mean that he's actually followed the show closely,
understood most of what all happened and become a more enlightened
person. (Though from what I've seen of his public projection,
I'll admit I don't think it very likely... :-)
All in all, though, I don't really care what he thinks of the show.
If he likes it, good. Maybe he'll find somewhere in it a interesting
parallel with his own life and make better decisions because of it.
It doesn't make the show any less.
>I'd hate to see B5, no matter via how remote a connection, be
>associated in any permanent way with George Bush, Jr.
Geez, you really have a beef with him...
Otto Martin - actually, a passive extremist green myself... ^_^;
--
"Wow! My own personal Yoda!"
http://www.venisproductions.com/angelmoxie/archives/0/3/039.html
Sesamev
>sensible policies and writing viable laws.
OK, first, I know you meant to type "wonks." This is not a spellcheck post.
Second, I love the idea of a policy wok. Intense heat applied to finely diced
components, with timing the most crucial element.
Nice.
Devoted to finding the beauty in error,
--Suzanne
Lisa Coulter
> > And some Republicans and Democrats vote based on "individual merit, or
> > principle, or any number of things rather than party affiliation." in
> > general elections.
>
> Alas, that number is all too small on both sides of the aisle. If only more
> people did that...
>
Agreed. It's interesting that Jerry Doyle as much as admits this in
his interview. He's very cynical about Party politics and politicians
in general for one aspiring to office. I can see how jms, though he
disagrees with Doyle poltically, might have supported him as an honest
man.
Personally, I wish there was more of a chance in the US for people of
many different persuasions to be active politically. The two party
system acts mainly to keep those parties and people in power, which
does not always help the citizenry as much as it could. But the way
our campaign laws and such are written, it's very hard for other
people to even get on the ballot in many states. I guess that may not
be true in all states, but I know for a fact it is where I live in
Florida.
Anyway, thank all of you for taking my somewhat snippy comment and
turning it into a very reasoned and interesting discussion. It
somewhat restores my faith in things...:)
Lisa Coulter
Aisling Willow Grey
> Voxwoman <voxw...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>And I just remembered that Charles Manson liked the works of Robert
>>Heinlein....
>>
>
> "Liked"? Isn't Manson still alive?<<
Yeah, but I think that when she used the past tense "liked," Jenn was
referring to the fact that along with most of us, Manson was pretty
disgusted with Heinlein after that posthumous nonsense got published.
;-)
Aisling
Raven Woman
referring to the fact that along with most of us, Manson was pretty
disgusted with Heinlein after that posthumous nonsense got published.
;-)
Aisling<<<<<<<<
Wasn't this Jenn who posted about Manson.
But somehow I wouldn't put liking Heinlein past him. Heinlein, urgh.
Jenn
Jan
>But somehow I wouldn't put liking Heinlein past him. Heinlein, urgh.
Hrmph. *I* like Heinlein. A lot. A lot of his writings haven't aged well but
it was still great stuff with lively characters.
Jan
Raven Woman
well but
it was still great stuff with lively characters.
Jan<<<<<
Hm, well, there's no arguing with taste. I could give you plenty ammo,
though, by confessing to a secret passion for both Lexx and Red Dwarf....
:)
Seriously, though, it does seem to me that more written sci-fi aims
specifically at a "teen-guy" audience (as opposed to a "male" audience) in
that it features REALLY BAD guys who should be killed, REALLY HOT babes who
wanna be scr-wed. Heinlein just bothers me more cos he combines those
elements w/ a higher intellectual level, which makes him more dangerous,
IMHO. Just like CS Lewis, he's so *good* at what he does that it renders
his opinions all the more dangerous. (You know you're still lurking, J.
Kennedy, here's some bait, come play, come play--)
I do like some of Heinlein's "general" observations, though. I used to have
one about the power of language taped to my cubicle; it was from the novel
where Earth is ruled by the religious fanatics and the protagonists are
discussing how propaganda works. Can't think of the title, alas.
Jenn
Jan
>Hm, well, there's no arguing with taste. I could give you plenty ammo,
>though, by confessing to a secret passion for both Lexx and Red Dwarf....
ROFL, we all have our little vices, don't we?
>Heinlein just bothers me more cos he combines those
>elements w/ a higher intellectual level, which makes him more dangerous,
>IMHO.
Yeah, that's a point. And in fact, you're probably right on the money because
a good many of his books *were* written for juveniles. They just aren't marked
that way. There were certain things he simply wasn't allowed to do, due to the
targeted market. Not only publishing company ninny's got to p..lay in his pool,
library sorts did too.
>I do like some of Heinlein's "general" observations, though. I used to have
>one about the power of language taped to my cubicle; it was from the novel
>where Earth is ruled by the religious fanatics and the protagonists are
>discussing how propaganda works. Can't think of the title, alas.
I can't either but it was a good 'coming of age' story as I recall. And yes,
Heinlein always gave me the impression that he respected and loved language.
I guess I have a knack for skating over the stuff that doesn't work for me to
concentrate on the stuff that does and the rest of the story.
Jan
Simo Aaltonen
> And now I feel dirty because a Finnish person is saying such stupid
> things... :-)
I wrote what I felt. If I hadn't, I'd have been lying.
That I am Finnish is part of my character, but it is not a descriptor of
my character, so if Finnishness is a descriptor of *your* character, you
have no reason to feel dirty because only a racist would lump us together
in the same category. I am no more representative of Finns in general
than Bush is representative of Americans in general. (Which should go
without saying, but there it is.)
-Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
(simo...@cc.jyu.fi)
Simo Aaltonen
If anyone is still wondering why someone would have a problem with Bush
being president of the United States, they need only read the December 9,
2002 issue of Newsweek.
-Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
(simo...@cc.jyu.fi)
Simo Aaltonen
> things... :-)
Sorry for replying to your message in three parts (one of which featured
what you might call some "fuzzy logic" due to impaired cognitive
functioning brought on by extremely recent loss of a beloved creature),
but it seems my brain is working piece-meal today.
What is this need Finns have of touting their Finnishness--bringing it up
at every possible turn? I can understand when it's somehow relevant to
the discussion, but not when it's like, "Kiss me, I'm Finnish."
(Okay, *that* would be mildly amusing, in a stale kind of way, but
usually it's brought up like it should somehow bring about instant
respect or something. Which is embarrassing, to say the least. Not from
a countryman's point of view, but from that of a fellow human being.)
It's little different from saying, "I'm white, by the way."
-Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
(simo...@cc.jyu.fi)
Robert Perkins
<Hraf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I used to have
>one about the power of language taped to my cubicle; it was from the novel
>where Earth is ruled by the religious fanatics and the protagonists are
>discussing how propaganda works. Can't think of the title, alas.
It was "If This Goes On..." in the _Revolt in 2100_ collection.
Rob, a Heinlein fan, for the most part
Voxwoman
Jan wrote:
> Raven Woman wrote:
>
>
>>Hm, well, there's no arguing with taste. I could give you plenty ammo,
>>though, by confessing to a secret passion for both Lexx and Red Dwarf....
>>
>
> ROFL, we all have our little vices, don't we?
>
>
>>Heinlein just bothers me more cos he combines those
>>elements w/ a higher intellectual level, which makes him more dangerous,
>>IMHO.
>>
>
> Yeah, that's a point. And in fact, you're probably right on the money because
> a good many of his books *were* written for juveniles. They just aren't marked
> that way. There were certain things he simply wasn't allowed to do, due to the
> targeted market. Not only publishing company ninny's got to p..lay in his pool,
> library sorts did too.
>
>
>>I do like some of Heinlein's "general" observations, though. I used to have
>>one about the power of language taped to my cubicle; it was from the novel
>>where Earth is ruled by the religious fanatics and the protagonists are
>>discussing how propaganda works. Can't think of the title, alas.
could be "Job: A comedy of errors" or maybe "farnam's freehold"? or even
"6th column"... I don't remember now, either.
>>
>
> I can't either but it was a good 'coming of age' story as I recall. And yes,
> Heinlein always gave me the impression that he respected and loved language.
>
> I guess I have a knack for skating over the stuff that doesn't work for me to
> concentrate on the stuff that does and the rest of the story.
>
> Jan
>
>
My favorite RAH quote is: "One man's religion is another man's belly laugh."
It's managed to keep me out of many arguments over who's God is better...
Voxwoman (who brought up the subject in the first place)
Robert Perkins
Aaltonen) wrote:
>I am no more representative of Finns in general
>than Bush is representative of Americans in general. (Which should go
>without saying, but there it is.)
Bush's manner and attitudes actually seem pretty much dead-on
"flyover" America, with the exception of a few population centers, in
my experience.
Rob
Jan
>It was "If This Goes On..." in the _Revolt in 2100_ collection.
Yeah! That's it! I can never remember that title.
Jan
Check out my Ebay auctions for rare Babylon 5 items and great bargains on
rings. http://makeashorterlink.com/?R296135B2
Jan
>could be "Job: A comedy of errors" or maybe "farnam's freehold"? or even
> "6th column"... I don't remember now, either.
"Job" is the one where the guy and his lady keeps changing dimensions.
"Farnham's Freehold" is the one where white people are enslaved and "6th
Column" is the one where the Asians have invaded the US and the military starts
a new religion.
I'm pretty sure that Robert's right. It's "If This Goes On..."
>My favorite RAH quote is: "One man's religion is another man's belly laugh."
Mine is "Budget the luxuries first".
Raven Woman
"Farnham's Freehold" is the one where white people are enslaved and "6th
Column" is the one where the Asians have invaded the US and the military
starts
a new religion.
>>>>>I'm pretty sure that Robert's right. It's "If This Goes On..."
>>>>Jan<<<<<<
It was "Sixth Column." (I know cos I haven't read those others.) Thanks!!
Jenn
Jan
>It was "Sixth Column." (I know cos I haven't read those others.) Thanks!!
>
Ah. I thought you meant the one where the evangelist type had taken over.
That one was 'If This Goes On' then.
"Sixth Column" is the one where they have the new ray that helps the resistance
make the asian invaders think they're a real religion.
I can't believe I remember some of this stuff...
Raven Woman
damn familiar, and I *know* I've never read anything under that name. I'm
thinking of a guy who starts out a soldier/priest and then defects & runs
off w/ his girl to join the opposition.
I read six or eight Heinleins fairly quickly one winter, they run together.
The only exception's Stranger in a Strange Land, which I read in high
school. Yikes.
Jenn
Chris Adams
>Personally, I wish there was more of a chance in the US for people of
>many different persuasions to be active politically. The two party
>system acts mainly to keep those parties and people in power, which
>does not always help the citizenry as much as it could. But the way
>our campaign laws and such are written, it's very hard for other
>people to even get on the ballot in many states. I guess that may not
>be true in all states, but I know for a fact it is where I live in
>Florida.
The laws in Alabama require that, for a party to be considered a "major"
party and be listed as such on the ballot, they have to have a candidate
get at least 20% of the vote in the previous election cycle. The
Libertarian Party had such a candidate in 2000, so they were a major
party in 2002. However, the media and government still didn't treat
them as such; the Libertarian candidate for governor was not allowed to
participate in the debates (run by the state public broadcasting network
and supported by the major newspapers). Since they didn't have a
candidate get 20% this time, they won't be a major party in 2004.
I'm very tempted to not cast any votes for any member of either of the
Republican or Democratic parties again as long as the current atmosphere
prevails.
--
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Voxwoman
kill whatever "race" they wanted). That's how I remember it, anyway.
Voxwoman
Jan wrote:
> Voxwoman wrote:
>
>
>>could be "Job: A comedy of errors" or maybe "farnam's freehold"? or even
>> "6th column"... I don't remember now, either.
>>
>
> "Job" is the one where the guy and his lady keeps changing dimensions.
> "Farnham's Freehold" is the one where white people are enslaved and "6th
> Column" is the one where the Asians have invaded the US and the military starts
> a new religion.
>
> I'm pretty sure that Robert's right. It's "If This Goes On..."
I'm pretty sure Robert's right, too... It's been probably 20 years since
I've read any of those books (at least!).
Jan
>i thought the ray killied non-whites (and they could tune the ray to
>kill whatever "race" they wanted). That's how I remember it, anyway.
Yeah, they could set it to do all sorts of things, as I recall. I remember
them using it as a halo effect and possibly a tractor and pressor beam that
helped them build their 'temples'. The first use of the discovered ray had
killed all but a few of the secret lab's inhabitants.
Kathryn Huxtable
Ah, yes, that.
-K
Jan
Aisling Willow Grey wrote:
>> Yeah, but I think that when she used the past tense "liked," Jenn was
>> referring to the fact that along with most of us, Manson was pretty
>> disgusted with Heinlein after that posthumous nonsense got published.
>
>Ah, yes, that.
What poshumous nonsense? I remember reading 'Grumbles from the Grave' but I
don't remember anything offensive.
Kathryn Huxtable
> Kathryn Huxtable wrote:
> Aisling Willow Grey wrote:
> >> Yeah, but I think that when she used the past tense "liked," Jenn was
> >> referring to the fact that along with most of us, Manson was pretty
> >> disgusted with Heinlein after that posthumous nonsense got published.
> >
> >Ah, yes, that.
>
> What poshumous nonsense? I remember reading 'Grumbles from the Grave' but I
> don't remember anything offensive.
Well, there was all the extra junk that got added back into _Stranger
in a Strange Land_.
-K
Robert Perkins
wrote:
>
>I'm pretty sure Robert's right, too... It's been probably 20 years since
>I've read any of those books (at least!).
Less than 20 for me. I read 'em as an impressionable teen, and then
went back to most of his books later on for the sake of nostalgia.
Don't know if I'll recommend more than a couple of them to my kids.
Rob
Voxwoman
Kathryn Huxtable wrote:
Uh-oh... I *liked* the unabridged version better than the original. My
problem with Heinlein's writing came in the era of "Number of the
Beast," which has the distinction of being the only novel I've hurled
across the room in disgust and frustration (and I think it dented my
closet door, too). Later on, I learned that Heinlein had a brain tumor
or blockage or something, and he blamed his writing on that. I forgave
him after "Friday" <G>
>
>
Theodrake
news:3DF74C46...@hotmail.com:
Heinlein's "The Number of the Beast" was his fond farewell to friends
fictional and real. One of his fans has pointed out that this book was a
grand practical joke. Here's the link to his response to all the criticism
of TNOTB:
Jan
>Uh-oh... I *liked* the unabridged version better than the original. My
>problem with Heinlein's writing came in the era of "Number of the
>Beast," which has the distinction of being the only novel I've hurled
>across the room in disgust and frustration (and I think it dented my
>closet door, too). Later on, I learned that Heinlein had a brain tumor
>or blockage or something, and he blamed his writing on that. I forgave
>him after "Friday" <G>
What did you dislike about Number of the Beast? Granted, it was hardly
anything approaching Science Fiction and the interactive nipples got old pretty
quickly. But what was offensive enough to throw it hard enough to damage? I
kind of liked the concept of myth becoming reality.
Arthur Buse
[snip]
>I do like some of Heinlein's "general" observations, though. I used to have
>one about the power of language taped to my cubicle; it was from the novel
>where Earth is ruled by the religious fanatics and the protagonists are
>discussing how propaganda works. Can't think of the title, alas.
Revolt in 2100
Kathryn Huxtable
> Heinlein's "The Number of the Beast" was his fond farewell to
> friends fictional and real. One of his fans has pointed out that
> this book was a grand practical joke. Here's the link to his
> response to all the criticism of TNOTB:
>
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/numberbeast.html
That's actually by Gharlane of Eddore, not by RAH.
-K
Theodrake
news:smx4be...@kathrynhuxtable.org:
Yes, I know my grammer can be difficult, but the "his response" was
refering to the "One of his fans..." in the previous sentence.
Aisling Willow Grey
> Kathryn Huxtable wrote:
>
> Aisling Willow Grey wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, but I think that when she used the past tense "liked," Jenn was
>>>referring to the fact that along with most of us, Manson was pretty
>>>disgusted with Heinlein after that posthumous nonsense got published.
>>>
>>Ah, yes, that.
>>
>
> What poshumous nonsense? I remember reading 'Grumbles from the Grave' but I
> don't remember anything offensive.<<
Well, this was just my not-so-veiled way of saying that I hated
"Grumbles from the Grave" (but like you, I also didn't have the same
huge problem with NOTB that others have reported).
Aisling
Voxwoman
Jan wrote:
> Voxwoman wrote:
>
>
>>Uh-oh... I *liked* the unabridged version better than the original. My
>>problem with Heinlein's writing came in the era of "Number of the
>>Beast," which has the distinction of being the only novel I've hurled
>>across the room in disgust and frustration (and I think it dented my
>>closet door, too). Later on, I learned that Heinlein had a brain tumor
>>or blockage or something, and he blamed his writing on that. I forgave
>>him after "Friday" <G>
>>
>
> What did you dislike about Number of the Beast? Granted, it was hardly
> anything approaching Science Fiction and the interactive nipples got old pretty
> quickly. But what was offensive enough to throw it hard enough to damage? I
> kind of liked the concept of myth becoming reality.
The book got thrown when Lazarus Long walked on set. I thought the
concept was interesting, and I liked the creepy "aliens" with the
weirdly-jointed legs, but the "scifi convention with all the imaginary
characters" was just too much for the mid-20's me that was reading it at
the time. (and yes, I did pick up the book and continue reading.)
On a similar but different note, I also had a major gripe with the way
"Footfall" was resolved, too.
Voxwoman
(can't recall where I read it, but it was while he was still alive)
Jan
>The book got thrown when Lazarus Long walked on set.
Yeah, I can see that. Though I had a much harder time with Oz, personally.
>On a similar but different note, I also had a major gripe with the way
>"Footfall" was resolved, too.
Refresh my memory? It's really been much too long since I've reread any but
Time Enough for Love and Stranger.
sprocketeer
Beast (and updated The Worlds of Robert Heinlein, where he mentions the
surgery).
I liked it, without understanding the joke, until I read Gharlane's
explanation. Knowing what the joke is makes it funnier.
Voxwoman
Jan wrote:
> Voxwoman wrote:
>
>
>>The book got thrown when Lazarus Long walked on set.
>>
>
> Yeah, I can see that. Though I had a much harder time with Oz, personally.
>
>
>>On a similar but different note, I also had a major gripe with the way
>>"Footfall" was resolved, too.
>>
>
> Refresh my memory? It's really been much too long since I've reread any but
> Time Enough for Love and Stranger.
Sorry, I was switching gears. "Footfall" was a Niven/Pournelle
collaboration, where the science fiction authors Save The Day when
aliens start dropping big rocks on Earth. The ending had the President
go psycho at the last minute, and his staff, who were very loyal and
unquestioning throughout the entire book, all turn on him and "do the
Right Thing" at the end.
The_Doge of St. Louis
lisac...@hotmail.com (Lisa Coulter) wrote:
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote in message
> news:<20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com>...
[...]
> > Karl Rove -- main strategist for the Republican Party and
> > power
> > behind the White House throne -- comes in. He says (paraphrased from
> > memory)
> > to Melissa, "I hope you'll forgive me, but I actually here to see Bruce."
> >
> > He then tells Bruce, "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science
> > fiction
> > fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series
> > *ever*."
> >
> > Then there's a pause, and he adds....
> >
> > "And the President thinks so too."
> >
> > Upon hearing this, I went to lie down for a spell, but I fully expect to be
> > back on my feet by Spring, latest.
> >
> > jms
>
> That's really amazing!
>
> See, guys, Bush may be better than some of you think. :)
Actually, it indicates that B5 is just as brilliant as we always we knew
it was. Even theofascist gits and their morally bankrupt lackeys can
appreciate it.
--
<*> ObQuote: "When a man's best friend is his dog, that dog has a problem." -- Edward Abbey
============================================================
<*>The_Doge of St. Louis Stage, screen, radio
http://www.pobox.com/~thedoge/ http://www.stageleft.org
J. Potts
[snip story of Karl Rove (and President Bush) being a fan of Babylon 5]
In article <3fe341aa.02120...@posting.google.com>,
lisac...@hotmail.com (Lisa Coulter) wrote:
> That's really amazing!
>
> See, guys, Bush may be better than some of you think. :)
In article <thedoge-DFA830...@newssvr11-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
The_Doge of St. Louis <the...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Actually, it indicates that B5 is just as brilliant as we always we knew
>it was. Even theofascist gits and their morally bankrupt lackeys can
>appreciate it.
Well, as my friend Jamie stated, if George thinks B5 is so wonderful,
"what the HELL is he (Georgie) doing creating his own Nightwatch??!! He
obviously missed the point somewhere..."
--
JRP
"How many slime-trailing, sleepless, slimy, slobbering things do you know
that will *run and hide* from your Eveready?"
--Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson
Wesley Struebing
>
<snip>
>
>Well, as my friend Jamie stated, if George thinks B5 is so wonderful,
>"what the HELL is he (Georgie) doing creating his own Nightwatch??!! He
>obviously missed the point somewhere..."
Musta watched it and enjoyed it for pure escapism. No bearing to
reality, and writers of drama don't do those things anyway, doncha
know...
--
Carpe Dementem! (grab the wacko)
Wes Struebing
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
str...@carpedementem.org
ph: 303-343-9006
home page: www.carpedementem.org
sprocketeer
>
> Actually, it indicates that B5 is just as brilliant as we always we knew
> it was. Even theofascist gits and their morally bankrupt lackeys can
> appreciate it.
>
The name of the party the fascist-in-chief belongs to may swing back and
forth, but the fascist gits remain the same.
The_Doge of St. Louis
nav...@lucent.com (J. Potts) wrote:
> [snip story of Karl Rove (and President Bush) being a fan of Babylon 5]
>
> In article <3fe341aa.02120...@posting.google.com>,
> lisac...@hotmail.com (Lisa Coulter) wrote:
> > That's really amazing!
> >
> > See, guys, Bush may be better than some of you think. :)
>
> In article <thedoge-DFA830...@newssvr11-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
> The_Doge of St. Louis <the...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >Actually, it indicates that B5 is just as brilliant as we always we knew
> >it was. Even theofascist gits and their morally bankrupt lackeys can
> >appreciate it.
>
> Well, as my friend Jamie stated, if George thinks B5 is so wonderful,
> "what the HELL is he (Georgie) doing creating his own Nightwatch??!! He
> obviously missed the point somewhere..."
Well, let's put it this way: to most of us, Orwell's "1984" is a
cautionary dystopic novel.
To the current administration, I think it's a strategic plan. Maybe the
Nightwatch falls into the same category.
--
<*> ObQuote: "Acting is easy. All you have to do is get out on stage, talk loud, and don't hit the furniture." -- George Abbott
======================================================================
J Pekka Makela
> Well, as my friend Jamie stated, if George thinks B5 is so wonderful,
> "what the HELL is he (Georgie) doing creating his own Nightwatch??!! He
> obviously missed the point somewhere..."
Or he has truly taken the point. Maybe he's on a secret mission
to destroy the US of A as we know it?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-"Yksikielinen ja yksitapainen maa on heikko ja sortuu helposti. Tämän -------
--vuoksi käsken sinua, poikani, auttamaan tulokkaita ja kunnioittamaan heitä.-
------------------------------ (Tapani Pyhä, Unkarin valtakunnan perustaja)---
Robert Perkins
wrote:
>> Well, as my friend Jamie stated, if George thinks B5 is so wonderful,
>> "what the HELL is he (Georgie) doing creating his own Nightwatch??!! He
>> obviously missed the point somewhere..."
>
> Or he has truly taken the point. Maybe he's on a secret mission
> to destroy the US of A as we know it?
I continue to be kind of surprised at the tenacity of opinion here,
considering the TIPS program was floated, a website went up, and
nothing else has happened to it, except to announce (I read somewhere)
that it was dead. The link describing it is no longer even on the
citizencorps.gov site, though it's still cached on Google, and the
Wayback Machine might be able to pull it up as well.
They floated the idea. Far too few Americans wanted to do it, so we're
not doing it. (Unless it's moved elsewhere? I dunno; haven't looked.)
So why are we still talking about it as though it were about to be
unleashed on an unsuspecting herd of lemming Americans, or something?
Rob
Jan
>I continue to be kind of surprised at the tenacity of opinion here,
>considering the TIPS program was floated, a website went up, and
>nothing else has happened to it, except to announce (I read somewhere)
>that it was dead. The link describing it is no longer even on the
>citizencorps.gov site, though it's still cached on Google, and the
>Wayback Machine might be able to pull it up as well.
Yes, the acronym has gone away. I sincerely doubt that the concept has gone
away. What I perceive happened is that the idea of having employees of private
companies' turn into an informant network failed because no private company
with any sense at all would allow itself to be associated with such a program.
Instead, the focus is on individuals watching each other now, via the
Neighborhood Watch program. For instance:
<<In the aftermath of September 11, 2001, the need for strengthening and
securing our communities has become even more critical. President Bush has
announced that, with the help of the National Sheriffs' Association, the
Neighborhood Watch Program will be taking on a new significance. Community
residents will be provided with information which will enable them to recognize
signs of potential terrorist activity, and to know how to report that activity,
making these residents a critical element in the detection, prevention and
disruption of terrorism.>>
and this new sign is scary in itself:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L145511D2
Jan
Brian Hulett
news:thedoge-39C2D9...@newssvr11-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> In article <atlhpr$a...@netnews.proxy.lucent.com>,
> nav...@lucent.com (J. Potts) wrote:
>
> > [snip story of Karl Rove (and President Bush) being a fan of Babylon 5]
> >
> > In article <3fe341aa.02120...@posting.google.com>,
> > lisac...@hotmail.com (Lisa Coulter) wrote:
> > > That's really amazing!
> > >
> > > See, guys, Bush may be better than some of you think. :)
> >
> > In article
<thedoge-DFA830...@newssvr11-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
> > The_Doge of St. Louis <the...@pobox.com> wrote:
> > >Actually, it indicates that B5 is just as brilliant as we always we
knew
> > >it was. Even theofascist gits and their morally bankrupt lackeys can
> > >appreciate it.
> >
> > Well, as my friend Jamie stated, if George thinks B5 is so wonderful,
> > "what the HELL is he (Georgie) doing creating his own Nightwatch??!! He
> > obviously missed the point somewhere..."
>
> Well, let's put it this way: to most of us, Orwell's "1984" is a
> cautionary dystopic novel.
>
> To the current administration, I think it's a strategic plan. Maybe the
> Nightwatch falls into the same category.
>
Pick your poison. ;-}
--
---Brian Hulett, Publishing Editor
Fantasy Football Digest & Leagues
http://thewinningdrive.com
"Work well. Laugh hard. Play fair. Love completely."
Robert Perkins
>Yes, the acronym has gone away. I sincerely doubt that the concept has gone
>away.
The concept was never not there in the first place. The idea of
neighborhood watch or citizens watching and reporting on people is as
old as villages themselves.
And, as regards TIPS or that national database Poindexter wants,
private industry already does this stuff with impunity. In that sense
the government is (and should be AND should continue to be) far more
restrained and regulated than they.
>What I perceive happened is that the idea of having employees of private
>companies' turn into an informant network failed because no private company
>with any sense at all would allow itself to be associated with such a program.
Get it wrong once and the lawyers will pick your carcass clean.
>Instead, the focus is on individuals watching each other now, via the
>Neighborhood Watch program. For instance:
Now, I actually would support such a thing. We're already watching
each other very carefully. Consolidating and disseminating procedural
information through *local* authorities is just the kind of thing I
want the federal government to do. It's a case of equipping the people
who already watch a lot better, rather than supplanting them with some
kind of federal loyalty group, which I *do* oppose.
>and this new sign is scary in itself:
>
>http://makeashorterlink.com/?L145511D2
Why is a company that sells NW signs scary? I don't understand...
Or the sign itself? Maybe, but no moreso than some the bumper stickers
I've seen around. NW signs are installed by cities, not feds, aren't
they?
Rob
CaptJosh
news:032101c29626$546453a0$2d055141@kosh...
> Gee, maybe Bush isn't as dumb as some people think he is. <g>
>
Of course he isn't. He's an old Texas horse-trader. He plays dumb so that
he'll be underestimated. He asks for more than he really wants to make sure
he'll get the actually needs, which is also an old diplomatic tactic,
commonly known as "ask for everything, settle for less". Still, While I love
B5, Star Trek will always be the best IMHO.
CaptJosh
CaptJosh
news:as2rfb$dhe$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
<snip>
> Nice, if suspicious, to hear. Lets hope that Bush takes Sheridan rather
> than Clarke as his role model.
>
Dubya isn't oily enough to be like Clark. He's much more the cowboy type, so
I would say he identifies more with Sheridan and Sinclair, though more
Sheridan than Sinclair, since Dubya seems more into cowboy diplomacy.
CaptJosh
CaptJosh
"BoredGuy" <li...@boredguy.co.uk> wrote in message
news:as32vc$mcll4$1...@ID-123738.news.dfncis.de...
>
<snip>
>
> Don't believe you.. otherwise Bush would be hanging out in here as well :)
>
> Truthfully, well done... if only some other high profile people come
forward
> liking B5 we can think of the endless campaign posters for them :)
>
> (Hope your on your feet in time to do commentarys for Season 2 DVD's :D )
>
> Boredguy
>
Slight problem with your assesment. POTUS(President Of The United States,
for those who don't read Tom Clancy) is a very busy man and may simply not
have had the time to come say hello.
CaptJosh
CaptJosh
news:2b1c273e.0211...@posting.google.com...
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote in message
news:<20021126023222...@mb-fa.aol.com>...
> >
<snip>
>
> Gosh, my father was right -- a stopped clock is still right twice a
> day.
>
> Now I want to know which character the president most identifies with
> (and why do I fear it might be Londo?)
>
Nah. He's not enough a buffoon to be Londo, and doesn't let himself be
pushed around that way. Seems to favor some Sheridan style cowboy diplomacy
from what I've seen.
CaptJosh
CaptJosh
"Rob" <r...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:as37vn$nj0de$1...@ID-81914.news.dfncis.de...
> That's great! Although Bush is more like President Clark, and Rove is a
> good Morden, perhaps WB will be motivated to get off their blue-suited
butts
> and produce the rest of the DVD's expeditiously and with highest quality.
> (But maybe I've inhaled too much dust).
>
You're so wrong. Bush isn't slick enough to be Clark. He's a rough-and-ready
type, like Sheridan. Seems to favor Sheridan's type of cowboy diplomacy.
CaptJosh
Lucas Bachmann
CaptJosh wrote:
> Slight problem with your assesment. POTUS(President Of The United States,
> for those who don't read Tom Clancy) is a very busy man and may simply not
> have had the time to come say hello.
>
> CaptJosh
As I recall, right after he took office he decided to stop
using email because he didn't want his private life being
archived. Even if he was so inclined to come here he wouldn't
do it for that reason.
Lucas
Jan
>The concept was never not there in the first place. The idea of
>neighborhood watch or citizens watching and reporting on people is as
>old as villages themselves.
True. The Salem Witch Trials come to mind. Not to mention the House Committee
on UnAmerican Activities.
>And, as regards TIPS or that national database Poindexter wants,
>private industry already does this stuff with impunity. In that sense
>the government is (and should be AND should continue to be) far more
>restrained and regulated than they.
The difference being that any commercial database a company keeps is seldom
shared with others and if so, generally only statistical data without
identifying information. Any database kept by the government will contain
information allowing any yahoo with a badge to come knocking on my door.
>Get it wrong once and the lawyers will pick your carcass clean.
To quote Lorien: "As it should be"
>Now, I actually would support such a thing. We're already watching
>each other very carefully.
You are? I hope I don't live in your neighborhood.
>Consolidating and disseminating procedural
>information through *local* authorities is just the kind of thing I
>want the federal government to do. It's a case of equipping the people
>who already watch a lot better, rather than supplanting them with some
>kind of federal loyalty group, which I *do* oppose.
I oppose anybody 'keeping an eye on' me for any reason whatsoever. If I want
that I can hire an alarm company.
>Or the sign itself? Maybe, but no moreso than some the bumper stickers
>I've seen around. NW signs are installed by cities, not feds, aren't
>they?
>
The main link at the moment seems to be via the National Sherriffs Association.
The sign itself is what concerns me. Can somebody point to one thing that the
9-11 hijackers did that might have been forseen and stopped by any kind of
neighborhood peeping program? Did they have truckloads of fertilizer pulling
up to their house? Oh, nope. Wrong terrorists-that was our own citizens doing
that one.
What bothers me about the whole idea is that a program like this can make
people think that there's something that could have been done to prevent the
9-11 hijackings 'if only' we'd been more vigilant. The unpleasant truth is
that, as long as we value our liberies, there wasn't.
Me, I'd like to see a program to train people to accept personal risk and
responsibility so that there's more than one in three hijacked planes sent into
the ground next time.
Jan
Wesley Struebing
<rob_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
>Or the sign itself? Maybe, but no moreso than some the bumper stickers
>I've seen around. NW signs are installed by cities, not feds, aren't
>they?
>
You keep saying that it's not the feds but the states and local
insitutions that are doing this as if that makes it all right.
There was an old "Twilight Zone" episode many years ago during the
paranoia of the Cold War. It was called "The Monsters are Due on
Maple Street", I seem to remember. Doesn't get any more local than
that.
Watch it some time, if you get the chance, or remember it if you've
already seen it.
--
Carpe Dementem! (grab the wacko)
Wes Struebing
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
str...@carpedementem.org
ph: 303-343-9006
home page: www.carpedementem.org
Robert Perkins
>Robert Perkins wrote:
>
>>The concept was never not there in the first place. The idea of
>>neighborhood watch or citizens watching and reporting on people is as
>>old as villages themselves.
>
>True. The Salem Witch Trials come to mind. Not to mention the House Committee
>on UnAmerican Activities.
Right. There's fallacy in citing only the failures of a "brother's
keeper" kind of surveillance, you know.
>The difference being that any commercial database a company keeps is seldom
>shared with others and if so, generally only statistical data without
>identifying information. Any database kept by the government will contain
>information allowing any yahoo with a badge to come knocking on my door.
Any database in private hands is subject to sale to the highest
bidder. Think about it.
>>Now, I actually would support such a thing. We're already watching
>>each other very carefully.
>
>You are? I hope I don't live in your neighborhood.
We. Americans. Not the people in my neighborhood, only about a fifth
of whom I can claim to know very well at all. But I *do* know the
names and dispositions of every immediate neighbor. *That's* the kind
of think neighborhood watch is built around.
It's never evident here, but I participate in the national community
of general aviation pilots. We watch each other very carefully,
independent of government oversight and as a cohesive group: General
aviation pilots are already a very misunderstood minority of people,
which is unfortunate since I've never seen any but the most loyal
Americans among them.
If there is an innocent group that gets more scrutiny than it ought
to, and more rights abuses from local, state, and some federal
authorities than should ever be possible, it's the people who do
private airplane flying. Municipalities all over the country, not to
mention the NFL and Major League Baseball, wish to over-regulate
general aviation on putative grounds of national or state security.
Often the real reason has to do with advertising revenue, as in the
case of the national sports leagues. We're regularly subjected to very
unconstitutional laws and ordinances requiring criminal background
checks, required picture identification, and an increasingly hostile
and frightened public, in spite of the fact that a GA airplane can't
bring much of anything down; there's just not enough kinetic energy
there.
So, there's already a minority in the U.S. who, in the name of
"safety" or "security", already may not move about the country as they
choose without their "papers". I have to carry my pilot certificate, a
valid endorsement by a federally-vetted doctor that I'm healthy, and
the picture identification of my choice, but preferrably a passport or
driver license or state ID.
So let's not suppose that I mean anything close to what you're
claiming for me, here.
>I oppose anybody 'keeping an eye on' me for any reason whatsoever. If I want
>that I can hire an alarm company.
Pardon, but if you're doing wrong and I think it stands to harm my
family, I'll watch you very carefully. You can oppose it but the only
way to prevent it is to not go out in public. You're already eyeing
*me* by virtue of my pilot certificate. Turnabout is only fairplay,
don't you think?
>Me, I'd like to see a program to train people to accept personal risk and
>responsibility so that there's more than one in three hijacked planes sent into
>the ground next time.
I think you can rest assured that no pilot will permit it, ever again.
Period.
Rob
Robert Perkins
<str...@carpedementem.org> wrote:
>You keep saying that it's not the feds but the states and local
>insitutions that are doing this as if that makes it all right.
It's absolutely not what I'm saying. References to old allegory aside,
what I think about it is that if the control is primarily local, then
corruption from having that control will not quickly spread at the
federal level. You can keep a cheating county clerk in check far
faster than you can the whole IRS.
It starts at home, by the way, with local control over the behavior of
children.
Rob
Andrew Swallow
"Jan" <janmsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221162933...@mb-mu.aol.com...
> Robert Perkins wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> The main link at the moment seems to be via the National Sherriffs
Association.
> The sign itself is what concerns me. Can somebody point to one thing
that the
> 9-11 hijackers did that might have been forseen and stopped by any kind of
> neighborhood peeping program? Did they have truckloads of fertilizer
pulling
> up to their house? Oh, nope. Wrong terrorists-that was our own citizens
doing
> that one.
>
Terrorist Ramzi Yousef drove a fertilizer bomb to the World Trade
Centre in 1993. WTC engineers told his trial that with slightly more
explosive material in his bomb, he could have destroyed the building.
Yousef had spent $400 on home made explosive which produced a
significant crater in the building's substructure. For say $1,200 he
may have succeeded in knocking the building down.
Yousef had spent time in a bin Laden sponsored training camp in
Afghanistan and frequently talked about bin Laden's teachings and
plans. Yousef was convicted in 1997 and sentenced to 240 years
in solitary confinement.
Source p60 War on Terror published by American Media Specials Inc.
Andrew Swallow
Wesley Struebing
<rob_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:53:40 -0700, Wesley Struebing
><str...@carpedementem.org> wrote:
>
>>You keep saying that it's not the feds but the states and local
>>insitutions that are doing this as if that makes it all right.
>
>It's absolutely not what I'm saying. References to old allegory aside,
>what I think about it is that if the control is primarily local, then
>corruption from having that control will not quickly spread at the
>federal level. You can keep a cheating county clerk in check far
>faster than you can the whole IRS.
Ahh! Better the crook you know (and can keep tabs on)....
>
>It starts at home, by the way, with local control over the behavior of
>children.
>
Can't really disagree with you there...<G>
>Rob
Kurt Ullman
<am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Terrorist Ramzi Yousef drove a fertilizer bomb to the World Trade
>Centre in 1993. WTC engineers told his trial that with slightly more
>explosive material in his bomb, he could have destroyed the building.
>Yousef had spent $400 on home made explosive which produced a
>significant crater in the building's substructure. For say $1,200 he
>may have succeeded in knocking the building down.
>
The Milennium Bombing that was stopped at the Canadian border
was supposed to use dynamite.
-----------------------------------
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the bastards."-- Claire Wolfe
Jan
Jan wrote:
>>True. The Salem Witch Trials come to mind. Not to mention the House
>Committee
>>on UnAmerican Activities.
>
>Right. There's fallacy in citing only the failures of a "brother's
>keeper" kind of surveillance, you know.
If there's even one example of such officially sanctioned abuse, then it should
be warning enough that such measures should not be used ever again.
Can you name any successes that could outweigh those failures?
>Any database in private hands is subject to sale to the highest
>bidder. Think about it.
So what? Most of the information in a commercial database has as much to do
with my private life as the entry about me in the phone book. A database in
government hands could include associations, emails, phone records and many
other items that invade my true privacy.
>It's never evident here, but I participate in the national community
>of general aviation pilots. We watch each other very carefully,
>independent of government oversight and as a cohesive group: General
>aviation pilots are already a very misunderstood minority of people,
>which is unfortunate since I've never seen any but the most loyal
>Americans among them.
>
>If there is an innocent group that gets more scrutiny than it ought
>to, and more rights abuses from local, state, and some federal
>authorities than should ever be possible, it's the people who do
>private airplane flying. Municipalities all over the country, not to
>mention the NFL and Major League Baseball, wish to over-regulate
>general aviation on putative grounds of national or state security.
>Often the real reason has to do with advertising revenue, as in the
>case of the national sports leagues. We're regularly subjected to very
>unconstitutional laws and ordinances requiring criminal background
>checks, required picture identification, and an increasingly hostile
>and frightened public, in spite of the fact that a GA airplane can't
>bring much of anything down; there's just not enough kinetic energy
>there.
Sounds like the pilots have been regulated because the paparazzi (and
advertisers) can't be? My sympathies. I'm sure you're right about the
increased suspicion since 9-11 because I remember the paranoia about crop
dusting just afterward.
Which just helps me make my point. There's not much we can do about individual
stupidity and paranoia, but we should resist allowing it to spread into
'official', and therefor more dangerous policy.
>So let's not suppose that I mean anything close to what you're
>claiming for me, here.
I apologise if it sounded like I was accusing you personally of inappropriate
behavior.
>Pardon, but if you're doing wrong and I think it stands to harm my
>family, I'll watch you very carefully.
Yes, of course you will and you should. But what becomes suspect is when
people use bad criteria for deciding that they think somebody's doing something
wrong.
Perhaps it's my own personal overreaction, but my former employer has several
Muslim employees. Seeing them in true fear for all this time has been hard
because every one of them is a fine, hardworking person. Prejudice is a
horrible thing.
>Turnabout is only fairplay,
>don't you think?
In a word? Nope.
>I think you can rest assured that no pilot will permit it, ever again.
>Period.
One hopes. But it probably won't be a plane next time. There are many other
situations that could arrise and *that's* what I think people should
concentrate on being prepared for.
Jan
Jan
>Terrorist Ramzi Yousef drove a fertilizer bomb to the World Trade
>Centre in 1993.
You're right, of course. I'm not sure i ever realized that that one was a
fertilizer bomb. I was thinking of the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah
building.
Jan
Kurt Ullman
bombs were "popular".
Robert Perkins
>Robert Perkins wrote:
>
>Jan wrote:
>>>True. The Salem Witch Trials come to mind. Not to mention the House
>>Committee
>>>on UnAmerican Activities.
>>
>>Right. There's fallacy in citing only the failures of a "brother's
>>keeper" kind of surveillance, you know.
>
>If there's even one example of such officially sanctioned abuse, then it should
>be warning enough that such measures should not be used ever again.
>
>Can you name any successes that could outweigh those failures?
AMBER alerts. Shall we stop issuing them if it turns out to be that
someone used the report of a missing child to perputrate an injustice
on an innocent party? Should the FBI stop investigating crime
altogether because they mistakenly suspected Richard Jewell?
The successes of the system are legion, I'm sure. Police get their
leads from questioning bystanders, after all. If the government wishes
to tell people that "this and such" behavior is properly worth
watching as possible terrorism, then that's OK with me. If they begin
to pay people to do it, or offer tax credits or some such silly thing,
that's another.
But local law enforcement can certainly use the body of behavioral
information possible from collating descriptions of criminal behavior
nationwide. The trick is not to pay anyone to do the watching.
>So what? Most of the information in a commercial database has as much to do
>with my private life as the entry about me in the phone book. A database in
>government hands could include associations, emails, phone records and many
>other items that invade my true privacy.
Every background check ever run on my name contains many of those
things. And every company that's hired me has run one, as far as I
know.
>Sounds like the pilots have been regulated because the paparazzi (and
>advertisers) can't be? My sympathies. I'm sure you're right about the
>increased suspicion since 9-11 because I remember the paranoia about crop
>dusting just afterward.
The paranoia persists in government circles. What was clearly
motivated by a desire to carve up airport land into minimalls and
apartment buildings, or prevent the overflight of a ball game or a
beach because some incredibly small minority, or an out-of-town
company, wants it done for profit or under some misconception that all
general aviation pilots are rich people who play in planes.
These days, those same parties, willing to lie and distort to get
their way or get money, simply add "oh, it's a terrorist threat" to
the tops of their lists of talking points.
The irony is that governments have fallen for that kind of fallacious
reasoning. More than one state and municipality passed an utterly
unconstitutional background check law, since such a thing impedes free
interstate travel. Three GA airports near Washington DC remain almost
completely shut down due to federal orders limiting operations there
(which *is* constitutional, but still annoying)
But the point I'm trying to make is that people watch pilots very
carefully, insisting on all kinds of federal oversight in the name of
safety. If the surveillence information offered to the National
Sherriff's Association is all that's offered, that is, good
information about what to watch for, not lists of whom to watch, then
it's fine.
If there is a court order permitting police to watch individuals, then
that's fine too. You are rightfully skeptical of any program which
appears to watch people instead of behavior without that warrant, but
I have yet to see how the current floated programs advocate that. TIPS
might have done so, since it involved recruiting service employees to
see and report behavior inside private homes, but TIPS never got
beyond the proposal stages.
>Perhaps it's my own personal overreaction, but my former employer has several
>Muslim employees. Seeing them in true fear for all this time has been hard
>because every one of them is a fine, hardworking person. Prejudice is a
>horrible thing.
It is. It's too bad that it's impossible to avoid. I utterly disown
anyone who believes that answering hatred with hatred is correct,
especially when that answer falls upon the heads of innocent people.
>
>>Turnabout is only fairplay,
>>don't you think?
>
>In a word? Nope.
Neither do I.
>>I think you can rest assured that no pilot will permit it, ever again.
>>Period.
>
>One hopes. But it probably won't be a plane next time. There are many other
>situations that could arrise and *that's* what I think people should
>concentrate on being prepared for.
And yet, people still watch airplanes carefully, some with viscious
suspicion. Fact is, every commercial pilot is vetted very carefully by
every airline. And they love their lives just as much as anyone. Now
that we know the stakes are much higher when highjackers strike a
plane, no pilot will open that door. And passengers will behave as the
ones did over Pittsburgh.
As far as general aviation aircraft go, there isn't enough kinetic
energy in even a fast moving 767 to penetrate the feet-thick walls of
a nuclear reactor more than one inch, so there isn't much chance of a
Gulfstream jet or anything smaller doing mass destructive damage.
Small airplanes are actually very fragile things, moreso than cars.
And the community of private pilots is largely very meritocratic,
patriotic, and tight-knit. We know people are generally afraid of
flying and falling, and we know we need to be vigilant.
So, yes, a repeat of McVeigh's chosen method of murder or the 1993
truck bombing of the WTC is far more likely.
Rob