Question about Final Reckoning's end. (yup, spoilers)
Bill
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That should do it.
O.k, I just finished Final Reckoning (great book, btw) and was left a little
confused at the end. I don't quite understand the significance of Garabaldi
driving the stake into Bester's grave. Girard's comments ("Amen, and
Peace"), left me thinking that this was some type of peace sign, but I've
never heard of such a sign. Anyone mind elightening this uncultured fool?
GKeyes6988
Vampires. Stakes. 'Stay dead, you bastard'.
-- Greg Keyes
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Tammy Smith
it right away.
Hi, Greg! Great to see you here again!
Tammy
Bill
GKeyes6988 <gkeye...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991023124740...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
DelennToo
>
>>"Bill" <rufi...@hotmail.com> asked
>
>-- Greg Keyes
At first I laughed when I read this, thinking that Garibaldi wanted to make
*sure* Bester was dead. Then the thought that perhaps the act of driving the
stake into the grave was symbolic for Garibaldi too, that Bester (and
Garibaldi's obsession with him) finally had no hold on him any more. I mean,
Bester was in jail 10 years before he died, correct? And when Garibaldi was in
the hospital and Lise came to visit him, she said "But for you, it's over. And
now that it's over, there's going to be a hole in your life." to which he
replies, "No hole. Just a wound, finally closing up. I knew that when I finally
had him." I think the significance of Garibaldi visiting the grave 10 years
later and still needing to drive that stake into the dirt, to make sure Bester
was dead, shows that the wound never really closed up.
Great book! I really liked it and plan to read it again soon, as Mr Keyes had a
lot of layering of plot and detail that I'm sure I missed the first time I went
through, when I was driven to see how the story unfolded. Now I can read it
more leisurely and enjoy all the details!
Penny Rothkopf
Dele...@aol.com
Alison Hopkins
Bill wrote in message <7usf18$n3q$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
In a word, vampires. It's one of the ways of destroying one... that, and a
silver bullet.
Ali
BRETNTRACI
>silver bullet.
>
I thought the silver bullet was for werewolves.
Chibi-Light
In Romania and other areas in east Europe, people like to do stuff
like that to keep the dead rising from the gave, ie vampires.
CL
Ryan Nock
Neil Ottenstein
>
> -- Greg Keyes
>
I could have sworn that Garibaldi said he would do this at some point in
the series. Does anyone remember in which episode he said this?
Thanks,
Neil
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Brian Wallace
Bill <rufi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7usf18$n3q$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
GKeyes6988
>At first I laughed when I read this, thinking that Garibaldi wanted to make
>*sure* Bester was dead. Then the thought that perhaps the act of driving the
>stake into the grave was symbolic for Garibaldi too, that Bester (and
>Garibaldi's obsession with him) finally had no hold on him any more. I mean,
>Bester was in jail 10 years before he died, correct? And when Garibaldi was
>in
>the hospital and Lise came to visit him, she said "But for you, it's over.
>And
>now that it's over, there's going to be a hole in your life." to which he
>replies, "No hole. Just a wound, finally closing up. I knew that when I
>finally
>had him." I think the significance of Garibaldi visiting the grave 10 years
>later and still needing to drive that stake into the dirt, to make sure
>Bester
>was dead, shows that the wound never really closed up.
Yep. Maybe almost, but not quite. Garibaldi needed to see the grave, to make
it real, and being Garibaldi, he needed to make a gesture.
-- Greg Keyes
GKeyes6988
>
>Tammy
Hi Tammy! I've actually tried to post a few times and been booted back. I
finally got through! I understand there have been some problems with that.
-- Greg Keyes
GKeyes6988
DelennJohn
>finally got through! I understand there have been some problems with that.
Ah, yes, wonderful AOL. [these places work better with 3.0 and Macs, I believe]
Trying to use a Windows with AOL is like trying to nail smoke to the wall.
*ah!*
drago
Wesley Struebing
>>Hi, Greg! Great to see you here again!
>>
>>Tammy
>
>Hi Tammy! I've actually tried to post a few times and been booted back. I
>finally got through! I understand there have been some problems with that.
>
Good to hear that it wasn't I that drove you away! <G> You sort of
disappeared very shortly after my last post in response to one of
yours...
(anyway, good to see you back again)
GKeyes6988
>Date: Wed, 27 October 1999 08:26 PM EDT
>Message-id: <RZYXOL0zM8Kkoa...@4ax.com>
Thanks. No, no one drove me away -- I went on the road and when I came back I
was pretty busy. The next time I tried to post, I was asked to register again.
That happened a few times, and finally I'm back on. I'm still pretty busy, but
I'll be checking here a couple of times a week, at least.
-- Greg Keyes
-- Greg Keyes
in_vale...@hotmail.com
gkeye...@aol.com (GKeyes6988) wrote:
>
> Thanks. No, no one drove me away -- I went on the road and when I
came back I
> was pretty busy. The next time I tried to post, I was asked to
register again.
> That happened a few times, and finally I'm back on. I'm still pretty
busy, but
> I'll be checking here a couple of times a week, at least.
>
> -- Greg Keyes
This is a bit off topic, but could you tell us a bit about what
original novels you have coming up? You've moved from pure fantasy
with WATERBORN and BLACK GOD, to a magical alternate history with the
AGE OF UNREASON. Will you ever do some pure original SF? (Is my bias
showing? <g>)
scott tilson.
Derek Beebe
lovely book the best tv tie-in scfi book I've ever read definitely. In fact, it
reads like a classic novel!
Anywho, I had one question about the ending so here's a spoiler warning.
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There...
At the end, when Bester is in the apartment building he gets hit with a 'Sleeper'
dart by a cop, a lucky fly hit which of course disables his powers. That leaves
him EXTREMELY vunerable to Garabaldi who catches up with him, and their conflict
denegrates into a fistfight. Also, it's raining so PPGs won't fire thus Garabaldi
just doesn't fry him on the spot. Were this twists your idea's or JMS'?
Personally I don't like them because it means that Garabaldi didn't 'win' because
he was smarter or better than Bester, but because two quirky little events
happened. Garabaldi didn't demonstrate how he's gotten 'over' Bester... because it
was raining and he didn't have to oppurtunity to just shoot him. Worst of all is
the sleeper hit on Bester, I mean it's not fair that he looses just because of a
lucky hit by some no name cop like that.
Incidently you did the impossible and make Bester who killed thousands a hero, and
that's why the book was so incredibly wonderful. I was even more shocked to find I
was rivited by his romance with the mundane (if I knew about it before reading it
my initital reaction would have been disgust!).
GKeyes6988
(scott tilson) wrote:
>This is a bit off topic, but could you tell us a bit about what
>original novels you have coming up? You've moved from pure fantasy
>with WATERBORN and BLACK GOD, to a magical alternate history with the
>AGE OF UNREASON. Will you ever do some pure original SF? (Is my bias
>showing? <g>)
>
>scott tilson.
Oddly enough, though most of my books are fantasy, I've always read more
science fiction. I grew up on Tom Swift, the Heinlein and Lester Del Rey
Juveniles, Asimov, Nourse, Weinbaum, Bester (!) and Golden age short stories.
I still tend to snatch the new Niven or Brinn before anything else.
I like reading Science Fiction, I like writing Fantasy. Go figure.
I have written an SF novel, actually -- I wrote it even before the WATERBORN
and sold it when I sold the AGE OF UNREASON, four or five years ago. Though
they've paid for it, Del Rey is holding off on publishing it because they fear
it won't sell as well as my other books. My guess is they'll wait another few
years. There's a good chance I'll do a Star Wars book, and between that and
the B5 books they imagine I might have picked up a Science Fiction readership
by then (publishers, and especially marketing people, tend to think readers are
easily confused, and that people read either sf or fantasy, but not both). Or
they'll ask me to publish it under a different name.
Right now I'm finishing up the "Ben Franklin" books, THE AGE OF UNREASON, of
which there will be four, and I've just sold a new four-book epic fantasy (no
title yet) to Del Rey.
-- Greg Keyes
in_vale...@hotmail.com
gkeye...@aol.com (GKeyes6988) wrote:
>
> Oddly enough, though most of my books are fantasy, I've always read
more
> science fiction. I grew up on Tom Swift, the Heinlein and Lester Del
Rey
> Juveniles, Asimov, Nourse, Weinbaum, Bester (!) and Golden age short
stories.
> I still tend to snatch the new Niven or Brinn before anything else.
>
> I like reading Science Fiction, I like writing Fantasy. Go figure.
Fascinating, actually.
I share several authors in my favourites. Frank Herbert's DUNE was the
first SF novel that *made* me read it. Since then, unrepentantly
hooked. <g> I'm currently absorbing Charles Sheffield's AFTERMATH
(excellent!).
And yet, as an aspiring author my first short story doing the rounds is
... fantasy! So, I understand, but still can't figure! <g>
> I have written an SF novel, actually -- I wrote it even before the
WATERBORN
> and sold it when I sold the AGE OF UNREASON, four or five years ago.
5 years! Is this normal in the industry?
> Though they've paid for it, Del Rey is holding off on publishing it
> because they fear it won't sell as well as my other books. My guess
> is they'll wait another few years. There's a good chance I'll do a
> Star Wars book, and between that and the B5 books they imagine I
> might have picked up a Science Fiction readership by then
Maybe it's just IMO, but I think you *already* have! Having read your
B5 trilogy, I interested in your own SF writing, and would buy it now
if it was on the selves. Is there anyone we readers could contact at
Del Rey to let them know? Seriously!
> (publishers, and especially marketing people, tend to think readers
> are easily confused, and that people read either sf or fantasy, but
> not both). Or they'll ask me to publish it under a different name.
Well, the marketing people maybe be ignorantly half right. I don't
think much of the "confused" attitude, but within fandom there is
overlap, but I'm not certain it's near a majority.
But a nom de plume? Orson Card doesn't. Niven neither. Donaldson.
Dickson. LeGuin. Current bestseller Tad Williams. So many others,
too, for many years. "J. Gregory Keyes" has garnered acclaim. That
shouldn't be given up, when it can help draw readers, as history has
shown with those above and others.
> Right now I'm finishing up the "Ben Franklin" books, THE AGE OF
UNREASON, of
> which there will be four, and I've just sold a new four-book epic
fantasy (no
> title yet) to Del Rey.
>
> -- Greg Keyes
Busy boy. Congats! Thanks for the info.
Sue Phillips
I would say, without having read Greg's comments, that it was a way
for Garibaldi to symbolically make sure Bester stays dead since he is
driving a stake into the man's heart.
Symbolically speaking, that is.
Vampires, you know.....
Sue
Paul D. Shocklee
: On 23 Oct 1999 10:33:34 -0600, "Bill" <rufi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: >The grandaddy of all spoilers awaits below.
: >h
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[...]
: I would say, without having read Greg's comments, that it was a way
: for Garibaldi to symbolically make sure Bester stays dead since he is
: driving a stake into the man's heart.
: Symbolically speaking, that is.
: Vampires, you know.....
It was also a tradition long ago to drive stakes into the grave of a
suspected vampire, to keep them from rising at night.
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Paul Shocklee - physics grad student - Princeton University |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Periods of tranquility are seldom prolific of creative achievement. |
| Mankind has to be stirred up." -- Alfred North Whitehead |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
GKeyes6988
(Scott Tilson) wrote:
>> I have written an SF novel, actually -- I wrote it even before the
>WATERBORN
>> and sold it when I sold the AGE OF UNREASON, four or five years ago.
>
>5 years! Is this normal in the industry?
It's hard to say what's normal these days. Books are being dropped right and
left, series cut off in the middle. It's a crazy time.
>> Though they've paid for it, Del Rey is holding off on publishing it
>> because they fear it won't sell as well as my other books. My guess
>> is they'll wait another few years. There's a good chance I'll do a
>> Star Wars book, and between that and the B5 books they imagine I
>> might have picked up a Science Fiction readership by then
>
>Maybe it's just IMO, but I think you *already* have! Having read your
>B5 trilogy, I interested in your own SF writing, and would buy it now
>if it was on the selves. Is there anyone we readers could contact at
>Del Rey to let them know? Seriously!
I think the webpage has a feedback section.
http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/
It's a good site. They have sample chapters for many of their books, and you
can subscribe to an on-line newsletter.
>> (publishers, and especially marketing people, tend to think readers
>> are easily confused, and that people read either sf or fantasy, but
>> not both). Or they'll ask me to publish it under a different name.
>
>Well, the marketing people maybe be ignorantly half right. I don't
>think much of the "confused" attitude, but within fandom there is
>overlap, but I'm not certain it's near a majority.
Could be. I always followed authors, myself.
I think it is a fact that science fiction, as a genre, sells fewer books than
fantasy.
>But a nom de plume? Orson Card doesn't. Niven neither. Donaldson.
>Dickson. LeGuin. Current bestseller Tad Williams. So many others,
>too, for many years. "J. Gregory Keyes" has garnered acclaim. That
>shouldn't be given up, when it can help draw readers, as history has
>shown with those above and others.
Hmm. I appreciate the praise. But those you mention made their reputations,
for the most part, in an earlier environment. These days, because of the way
the big book chains do things, you can't afford for book B to sell fewer copies
than book A, because then the stores will order even fewer of book C than they
sold of book B, which means book D hasn't got a chance, not under the name
they have in their computers, anyway. The name change is to fool the
bookstores.
-- Greg
Neil Ottenstein
lost. I thought that in some episode of B5, Garibaldi said he was going
to do what he did in the final scene of Final Reckoning. Did I just
imagine this, or does anyone remember in what episode this was said?
Thanks,
Neil
Mark Maher
>I asked in another place in the thread, but perhaps the question was
>lost. I thought that in some episode of B5, Garibaldi said he was going
>to do what he did in the final scene of Final Reckoning. Did I just
>imagine this, or does anyone remember in what episode this was said?
>
specifically state that he had an obligation to shove Bester's face through a
bulkhead in "Strange Relations." Later, in "Phoenix Rising," Michael confronts
Bester, attempting to get him to submit a confession about using Garibaldi
earlier. He does state that he's willing to kill Bester on the spot if he
doesn't get what he wants. That's when Bester reveals the "Asimov" that he
implanted into Michael's programming.
__!_!__
Gizmo
GKeyes6988
>
>Mister Keyes, let me just say that I loved "Final Reckoning" it was a
>wonderfully
>lovely book the best tv tie-in scfi book I've ever read definitely. In fact,
>it
>reads like a classic novel!
Thank you very much.
The sleeper twist was in the original outline. It was my supposition that
PPG's wouldn't work very well in the rain, since each drop is like a little
lens, and PPGs fire phased helium plasma. They are designed for use in space,
really, where they can do damage to living tissue but not punch holes through
hulls. You'll notice most people on Earth in my books still use slug throwers
of some sort.
>Personally I don't like them because it means that Garabaldi didn't 'win'
>because
>he was smarter or better than Bester, but because two quirky little events
>happened.
I'm not sure Garibaldi WAS smarter and better than Bester, at least not at that
point. They were both getting pretty flaky due to pain, fatigue, and anger.
Garabaldi didn't demonstrate how he's gotten 'over' Bester...
>because it
>was raining and he didn't have to oppurtunity to just shoot him.
Well, he did at the end -- he had Bester helpless, and that's the important
point, at least in my view. In the heat of a fight, you can always excuse
yourself with the him-or-me perspective. When your opponent is beaten and on
the ground and you're standing him with the means to kill him, then you find
out if you're capable of murder. Garibaldi wasn't. Bester would have been, if
their roles had been reversed.
Worst of
>all is
>the sleeper hit on Bester, I mean it's not fair that he looses just because
>of a
>lucky hit by some no name cop like that.
Awful when bad things happen to good people, isn't it!
I think the original intent here (I'm trying to remember the outline, which is
here someplace. . .) was to play up the irony. After all, Bester put a lot of
people on sleepers in his time. It also puts Bester and Garibaldi on an equal
footing (Yes, Garibaldi is younger and more physical, but he also has a
shattered arm) for their last conflict.
>Incidently you did the impossible and make Bester who killed thousands a
>hero, and
Most people are heros in their own eyes. Personally, I wouldn't want to know
Bester, and if he were real I wouldn't be a member of his fan club. But he is
understandable -- my intent was to suggest that most of us could walk as dark a
path if we took the wrong turns. JMS set Bester up as a tragic figure, truly
tragic in the Shakespearean sense, defeated not some much by the outside as by
his own tragic flaws.
>that's why the book was so incredibly wonderful. I was even more shocked to
>find I
>was rivited by his romance with the mundane (if I knew about it before
>reading it
>my initital reaction would have been disgust!).
This was in the outline, too, and it was the hardest thing for me to pull off.
A vocal minority thinks I didn't succeed, and I respect that opinion. Thank
for your vote of confidence, however.
-- Greg Keyes
>
Wesley Struebing
>>in_vale...@hotmail.com
>(Scott Tilson) wrote:
>>But a nom de plume? Orson Card doesn't. Niven neither. Donaldson.
>>Dickson. LeGuin. Current bestseller Tad Williams. So many others,
>>too, for many years. "J. Gregory Keyes" has garnered acclaim. That
>>shouldn't be given up, when it can help draw readers, as history has
>>shown with those above and others.
>
>Hmm. I appreciate the praise. But those you mention made their reputations,
>for the most part, in an earlier environment. These days, because of the way
>the big book chains do things, you can't afford for book B to sell fewer copies
>than book A, because then the stores will order even fewer of book C than they
>sold of book B, which means book D hasn't got a chance, not under the name
>they have in their computers, anyway. The name change is to fool the
>bookstores.
>
Sheesh! Has the whole world gone bonkers? Is having a
off-book/day/(fill-in-the-blank) not allowed anymore?
Those writers mentioned above - all very good to wonderful (imho), but
how many of *them* could survive in what you've described, Greg, let
alone flourish?
(half-expecting Yossarian to crawl out of my monitor, mumbling
something about a catch-22, or somesuch...)
The Nuclear Marine
(firgive the erors)
"Mind War" Bester is informing the Commander some more details about the
rogue telepath Ironheart. Bester leaves passing by Garibaldi then turns
around at the door and says something that Garibaldi and Sinclair were
talking about earlier (obviously done by mind scan). Bester stares at
Garibaldi as he's walking away and "replies," somewhat annoyed,
"Anatomically impossible, Mr. Garibaldi, but you're welcome
to try, any time, anywhere."
Neil Ottenstein wrote:
>
> I asked in another place in the thread, but perhaps the question was
> lost. I thought that in some episode of B5, Garibaldi said he was going
> to do what he did in the final scene of Final Reckoning. Did I just
> imagine this, or does anyone remember in what episode this was said?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Maybe it dealt better with how Garibaldi himself has matured. It was
after all part of his story also.
------------
Till they find a cure for cranial-rectal inversion