Son-father relationships as a recurring theme in JMS' work
ekulrek
son-father relationships.
In his scriptwriting book, he talks about how important it is to write
from personal experience, and gives (if I recall correctly) the
example of the tak of writing an episode concerning alcoholism being
given to a writer who has in one way or another been exposed to that
theme in his own life.
I was wondering if the son-father relationship theme is of special
importance to JMS, e.g. something he has a personal need to examine,
and if he is drawing on his personal experience, good or bad.
Does anybody know?
Thanks,
Luke
Joseph DeMartino
>
> I was wondering if the son-father relationship theme is of special
> importance to JMS, e.g. something he has a personal need to examine,
> and if he is drawing on his personal experience, good or bad.
I can't tell you anything about JMS, but a LOT of American drama and
literature is about father/son relationships. I remember reading a
British critic years ago who saw this as a peculiarly American theme
in the universe of English-language letters. (I remember thinking
that the man must not have read much Shakespeare. <g>) I think it is
just one of those universal themes: All men measure themselves in
terms of their fathers, the primary male role model. We either want
to be like them or their total opposites. If the father is absent
then he is resented and hated, or idealized and loved. (Sometimes a
complex combination of all four.) But the father (and the father
figure) is one of the things that defines all of us, and something any
writer is going to deal with in one way or another. (To choose a
middlebrow genre example, the theme of fathers and sons is important
in every iteration of "Star Trek", even though the key scripts that
explored the relationship were written by very different writers, some
of them women.)
Regards,
Joe
John W. Kennedy
> importance to JMS, e.g. something he has a personal need to examine,
> and if he is drawing on his personal experience, good or bad.
>
> Does anybody know?
Our Joe has more than hinted from time to time of a childhood lived
one step ahead of the sheriff, and has mentioned his personal choice
not to be the cause that any more Straczynskis should trouble the
world. (Here I feel obliged to point out that I know personally some
other very nice Straczynskis.) That being said, I've known him on-line
for nearly a quarter century now, and I don't recall him going into
particular detail much beyond that in public.
Approaching your question from another angle, I'll add that he has
revealed that he likes writing about things that he can't have.
Duggy
> It seems to me that JMS' works often contain detailed examinations of
> son-father relationships.
I wouldn't say "detailed"... and I wouldn't say "father/son"
Sheridan has a good relationship with his father, we get some stories,
not much though, but his father is an important character (his mother
less so). We see little of David so we'll skip the next generation.
Ivanova has a strong father/daughter story and a strong mother/
daughter story.
Garibaldi mentions his father a couple of times, especially showing
love through food.
Delen mentions her father once, IIRC, but not her mother.
Franklin gets a father/son episode.
The relationships are there, and mostly with the fathers, however,
they aren't detailed in most cases.
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ekulrek
>
> I wouldn't say "detailed"... and I wouldn't say "father/son"
Well, for example:
Babylon 5 is about the children, the younger races, rebelling against
meddling, dominating (abusive?) parents, the older races, and claiming
control of their own destinies. There is a definite masculine slant to
the story.
Jeremiah is about a child searching for his father, only to find him
and realize that his father is not the man he thought he were. Again,
with a masculine slant.
Thanks,
Luke
Jan
ekulrek says...
At one point, somebody who liked the relationship between Sheridan and his dad
asked JMS if the elder Sheridan was based on his dad. He said that it wasn't
and declined to discuss it further.
Jan
--
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fight cancer.
Matt Ion
And how about "Murder, She Wrote"?
ekulrek
> At one point, somebody who liked the relationship between Sheridan and his dad
> and declined to discuss it further.
I think I found it. Is this the message you are referring to:
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id1-11462
Thanks,
Luke
Joseph DeMartino
> Sheridan has a good relationship with his father, we get some stories,
> not much though, but his father is an important character (his mother
> less so). We see little of David so we'll skip the next generation.
Sinclair also seems to have had a strong relationship with his father,
although it seems he is dead by the time of the series. (On meeting
Sinclair again Catherine Sakai asks after his brother, but not either
of his parents.)
> Delen mentions her father once, IIRC, but not her mother.
Actually she mentions both her parents a couple of times. In
"Confessions and Lamentations" she tells about the time she was
separated from her parents during a visit to a city, and took refuge
in temple where she had a vision. She definitely indicates that both
her mother and father were with her on that ocassion. Another time she
tells Sheridan that she rarely saw her mother, who joined a religious
order when Delenn was still fairly young. This was "a great honor"
and "the calling of her [the mother's] heart", but Delenn still missed
her greatly. I'm not sure if this is part of the same conversation
where she tells Sheridan the touching story about the last time her
father carried her on his shoulders, and what that moment meant to
her.
Regards,
Joe
Duggy
> Babylon 5 is about the children, the younger races, rebelling against
> meddling, dominating (abusive?) parents, the older races, and claiming
> control of their own destinies. There is a definite masculine slant to
> the story.
Parents & children, not father/son... the fact that the main
characters are military makes it masculine, but that isn't directly
related to he parent/child theme.
> Jeremiah is about a child searching for his father, only to find him
> and realize that his father is not the man he thought he were. Again,
> with a masculine slant.
Possibly.
Is there a masculine slant to The Changeling?
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Duggy
I remember the father story, but not the mother stuff... thanks for
the addition.
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ekulrek
> Parents & children, not father/son... the fact that the main
> characters are military makes it masculine, but that isn't directly
> related to he parent/child theme.
I'm not sure I agree with that distillation of the theme from its
embodiment; I think it is a reduction that runs the risk of losing
important defining details. I would say that the masculinity of B5
runs deeper than the military uniforms. It is expressed also through
e.g. the style of conflict resolution, risk taking, and perspective on
society and authority in general. In examining the theme of father-
son, I think it is worth to look beyond literal family relations. For
example: Sheridan, I would say, has a number of "fathers" in the show:
Kosh (1+2), his real father, Lorien, and, in principle, president
Clark as well.
> Possibly.
>
> Is there a masculine slant to The Changeling?
I don't know, probably not (I haven't seen it) -- I would assume that
JMS worked under different constraints on that movie than he did when
he ran e.g. B5. The same goes for Murder, She Wrote.
We seem to have ended up discussing whether it is "correct" to see
father-son relationships in JMS' works. I would assume that we can all
agree that with as complex and deep work as Babylon 5, you can derive
meaning from many perspectives, the father-son theme just one of them.
My original question was more to whether anyone knew if this theme was
of special importance to JMS, and if he had spoken on the subject, as
I at least find it a meaningful perspective to take on JMS' major
works.
Thanks,
Luke
Dan Dassow
> Is there a masculine slant to The Changeling?
Duggy, by your comment I am assuming you have not seen Changeling.
Generally males are shown in a very negative light in Changeling. In
the film, Walter Collins’ father deserted the family.[1] The police
and mayor are corrupt. Detective J. J. Jones forces Christine Collins
to take home a boy that she states is not her own. Dr. Earl W. Tarr
examines the imposter and declares him to be her son. Jones has her
locked up when she protests his actions in public. Dr. Jonathan Steele
browbeats and mistreats her in the insane asylum. Gordon Stewart
Northcott abducts and brutally kills her son. However, there are a few
males shown in a positive light: her boss (Ben Harris), Rev. Gustav
Briegleb (who helps her in her battle against the police and mayor),
Dr. John Montgomery (a dentist who confirms the boy returned to
Collins is not her son), Detective Lester Ybarra (the detective who
uncovers Northcott’s crimes), and S.S. Hahn (a lawyer who represents
Collins pro bono in her suit against Jones and the police).
Notes:
[1] In real life, Walter Collins senior was sent to San Quentin Prison
for armed robbery.
Dan Dassow
Joseph DeMartino
>
> Is there a masculine slant to The Changeling? <
It wouldn't matter if there were.
Luke mentioned that father-son relationships seemed to be a recurring
theme in JMS's work. Neither he nor anyone else asserted that the
theme appears in everything JMS ever wrote. The absence or presence
of a "masculine slant" in "Changeling" (there is no "The") is entirely
beside the point.
Regards,
Joe
Matt Ion
>
> Sinclair also seems to have had a strong relationship with his father,
> although it seems he is dead by the time of the series. (On meeting
> Sinclair again Catherine Sakai asks after his brother, but not either
> of his parents.)
That's a bit of a leap... maybe she knows his brother, but not his
parents... or likes his brother but not his parents. There are plenty
of reasons someone might ask someone else about one relative, but not
others, beyond the others being deceased. If memory serves, this is
largely avoiding-the-bigger-issue small talk at the time, so it wouldn't
be surprising that she wouldn't put a lot of thought into what family
members she wants an update on...
voxwoman
wrote:
One of the (many) aspects I really liked about Babylon 5 is that the
characters had relationships with their parents, and some of these
relationships were GOOD ones, and that the "entire crew" weren't
orphans (like on some other SF show I could mention - they weren't all
orphans, but it seemed like that most of the time). Interesting to
note that the most stable relationship on the station (Sheridan/
Delenn) the couple's parents were never divorced and had decent
relationships with their children. Although it seemed that John
Sheridan needed a couple of tries to get it right...
-Wendy
Duggy
> On Dec 30, 7:15 pm,Duggy<p.allan.dug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a masculine slant to The Changeling? <
> It wouldn't matter if there were.
> Luke mentioned that father-son relationships seemed to be a recurring
> theme in JMS's work.
Exactly. I dismissed his comments about B5, gave Jeremiah a maybe,
didn't even both with Murder She Wrote.
One maybe doesn't make a pattern.
> Neither he nor anyone else asserted that the
> theme appears in everything JMS ever wrote.
No, so with one maybe I was asking for a second example.
> The absence or presence
> of a "masculine slant" in "Changeling" (there is no "The") is entirely
> beside the point.
"masculine slant" seemed to be the short hand he was using for making
any relationship father/son.
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Duggy
> On Dec 30, 6:15 pm,Duggy<p.allan.dug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a masculine slant to The Changeling?
>
> Duggy, by your comment I am assuming you have not seen Changeling.
I own it on DVD and saw it at the cinema.
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Dan Dassow
Dug,
I did not realized you intended this as a rhetorical question.
Dan Dassow
Duggy
> On Jan 1, 3:57 pm, Duggy <p.allan.dug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 2:37 am, Dan Dassow <dan_das...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 30, 6:15 pm,Duggy<p.allan.dug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Is there a masculine slant to The Changeling?
> > > Duggy, by your comment I am assuming you have not seen Changeling.
> > I own it on DVD and saw it at the cinema.
> I did not realized you intended this as a rhetorical question.
Hey, no harm, no foul.
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ekulrek
> Exactly. �I dismissed his comments about B5, gave Jeremiah a maybe,
> didn't even both with Murder She Wrote.
>
> One maybe doesn't make a pattern.
>
> > theme appears in everything JMS ever wrote.
>
> No, so with one maybe I was asking for a second example.
OK, so we don't agree on the examples, fair enough.
> "masculine slant" seemed to be the short hand he was using for making
> any relationship father/son.
I don't think there is any reason to suggest I was using it in a carte
blanche way, nor applying it to _any_ relationship.
I explained my views on B5 and Jeremiah wrt. this theme, and as I
noted above, we can disagree on those, and I don't mind that, as long
as I'm allowed to have my opinion too. :)
>From the answers given in this thread (and thanks for them -- I
appreciate the insights), it seems that while JMS may have had a tense
relationship with his father, he has not talked a lot on the subject,
so maybe there just isn't any more to say on my original question.
Thanks,
Luke
Duggy
> > No, so with one maybe I was asking for a second example.
> OK, so we don't agree on the examples, fair enough.
I did 3 years of cinema studies at university. That's how talking
about themes work.
In Babylon 5 & Jeremiah I actually think that the themes you're
focusing on (because there are obviously more than one (for example,
the power of one person to change the universe)) is "Coming of Age".
Now parental relationships are part of the coming of age story -
whether good or bad "parents" are a hurdle in the coming of age story.
It wasn't that the Shadows or the Vorlons were completely wrong, but
whether a parent tries to toughen a child up for adulthood or (over)
coddles them, it is up to the child to claim adulthood on thier own,
to realise that parents aren't gods but just flawed people. And thus
began the third age of mankind. Eventually we learn that the child
become like the adults...
In Jeremiah, it's about the children trying to make thier own world
without parental influence. However, the world they are trying to
remake is really the one of the adults. Also the child needs to
realise that his parent isn't a god but just flawed people.
> > "masculine slant" seemed to be the short hand he was using for making
> > any relationship father/son.
> I don't think there is any reason to suggest I was using it in a carte
> blanche way, nor applying it to _any_ relationship.
I think you were over applying it to B5.
Yes, the protagonists had a masculine slant, but there are meta-
reasons for that.
B5 is run by the military, which has a built in masculine slant. Even
military females take on masculine personality charactistics (Ivanova,
Lochley, Tasha Yar, Janeway, Vasquez, etc, etc).
Most (but not all) television and films have a male protagonist or a
masculine female protagonist, and SF is an especially masculine genre.
For male characters the father/son relationship is shorthand for a
mentor/rival relationship... so when G'Kar & Sheridan see Kosh as
their father it's easier and clearer for the audience to have "dad"
rather than "Sgt Guy who taught me everything I know."
> I explained my views on B5 and Jeremiah wrt. this theme, and as I
> noted above, we can disagree on those, and I don't mind that, as long
> as I'm allowed to have my opinion too. :)
And I'm allowed to have mine. Just because my opinion is that yours
is wrong doesn't mean I can't express mine or that I'm stopping you
expressing yours.
I hate the opinion nazis who seem to think that disagreeing with
someone's opinion is in someway denying a person's right to have one.
I stated that I disagreed with you examples and asked if you could add
more.
>From the answers given in this thread (and thanks for them -- I
> appreciate the insights), it seems that while JMS may have had a tense
> relationship with his father, he has not talked a lot on the subject,
> so maybe there just isn't any more to say on my original question.
I think, on your original question there is a danger in applying
themes to the lives writers.
The larger themes you're talking about, as I've stated and shown in
this post are in the eye of the beholder... you say the father/son
themes exist and I say they don't... this makes it dangerous to apply
to the writer. Maybe you are write and maybe is says something about
JMS's relationship with his father. Maybe I'm right and it doesn't.
Maybe you're right and the larger theme is wish-fulfilment and nothing
to do with his relationship. Maybe you're right but it's a deliberate
move by JMS to write about father/sons, but not because or about his
own experiences.
It is because you focused on the personal connection between the
writer and the theme that I focused on the personal parent/child
themes within the series. They can be closer to the writer and the
writer writes what they know... however, the range of relationships
that I describe illustrates that JMS is a better writer than just
telling his parental relationship directly (although each one could be
a different part of a real relationship.)
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