{FAQ} The Rec.Arts.Sf.Starwars.Misc Frequently Asked Questions (RASSM FAQ)
Jill Marie
The Rec.Arts.Sf.Starwars.Misc Frequently Asked Questions (RASSM FAQ)
Last updated November 12, 2002
This list of frequently asked questions was written by long-time
readers of RASSM to answer some of the most common concerns of
new readers to the newsgroup about Star Wars and the RASSM group
in general.
Suggestions for the improvement of this FAQ are always welcome.
If you have a question about this FAQ, post it to the group or
e-mail the authors of the FAQ. (E-mail address listed at the end.)
We have broken the lengthy FAQ into three separate parts for your
reading/downloading enjoyment.
4. Commonly asked Star Wars questions
4a. Was "Episode IV: A New Hope" on the original release of Star Wars
in 1977?
No, in 1977 Star Wars was originally titled "Star Wars". The title
"Episode IV: A New Hope" did not appear until the 1981 re-release,
although some fans swear they saw it earlier than that.
4b. Wasn't there a scene with Biggs on Tatooine?
Not in the film. Many fans swear that when they first saw Star Wars
that
there were additional scenes on Tatooine feature Luke's friend Biggs.
This is called "Biggs' Fever". These scenes were filmed and showed as
clips at the San Diego ComicCon in 1997, but they have never been
attached to the Star Wars movie. In addition to the showing at
ComicCon, these Biggs Scenes were also present in: (1) the SW Radio
Drama, (2) the Star Wars novelization, (3) the original Marvel
Star Wars comic book adaptation, (4) the Topps SW trading card
series of 1977, and (5) various documentaries about the making
of Star Wars such as the CD compilation "Behind the Magic"
released by Lucasarts.
4c) Who was the pilot of the Y-Wing at the end of Star Wars?
According to the "Official X-Wing Strategy Guide", the pilot of the
Y-Wing, which was seen flying away from the exploding Death Star
along with the X-Wings of Luke and Wedge, and the Millennium Falcon,
was Keyan Farlander.
4d) Is Owen Lars really Obi-Wan's or Anakin's brother?
According to the script and novelization for ROTJ, Owen Lars
was Obi-Wan's brother. Obviously, George Lucas contradicted
that in Episode II and Owen Lars is Anakin's stepbrother.
4e) Was "Revenge of the Jedi" the original title for Episode VI?
Yes. There are four possible explanations for the title change:
1) George Lucas changed the title of the film shortly before
its release because revenge is not a Jedi concept.
2) Like with the "Blue Harvest" title, used while filming
in Yuma, AZ, they called the film "Revenge of the Jedi" to
throw people off. The title was always intended to be
"Return of the Jedi", but unfortunately, Fox started promoting
the film before they could tell them not to use the title.
3) "Star Trek: The Vengeance of Khan" (later changed to "The Wrath of
Khan"), was to be released near the same time. In the end, both
movie titles were changed, possibly to avoid confusion/lawsuits,
possibly a coincidence.
4) The title "Revenge" was leaked early in production, so that
pirated merchandise could be easily spotted when the film was
released. Some authentic pre-release movie posters actually
had "Revenge", and are worth a lot of money today.
4f. What's wrong with Ewoks/Gungans?
Ewoks and Gungans are disliked by many because they feel that they
only exist to sell product and not further the plotline in their
respective Star Wars films.
4g. Did you see the ice cream maker in ESB? Does Luke yell "Carrie!"?
Is George Lucas in BHC3? Was that ET in TPM? What's symbolic about
1138?
The above are just a few examples of bloopers and easter eggs which
can be found in the Star Wars saga. A blooper is some minor mistake in
the film that was never corrected during the editing process. An
easter egg is a surprise placed in a film by a member of the
production crew. For more information on bloopers and easter
eggs in the Star Wars films, visit the Star Wars Blooper Guide
[http://www.egosystem.com/starwars/index.html]
4h. Is Boba Fett dead?
According to the post-ROTJ novels & comics, Boba Fett is the only
person to survive the Sarlaac. His first post-ROTJ appearance was
in Marvel #81. The second source, which revealed he survived,
was the Dark Empire comic series by Dark Horse where he explained
his escape by merely saying "the Sarlaac found me somewhat
indigestible." However, his escape from the Sarlaac wasn't
documented, in one of the novels, until several years later in the
anthology 'Tales From Jabba's Palace'. You will find that about
half the people have no problems with this explanation for Boba
Fett's survival while the other half are content to believe Boba
Fett met his fate in the Sarlaac as implied in the movie.
4i. What is canon?
Canon is the authorized or accepted truth or rule. The views on canon
can range from people who say only the movies are canon to those who
think everything under the sun that was released about Star Wars from
film to radio drama to comic to novel is canon. Most people are
somewhere in between, picking and choosing what they decide depicts
the "true" Star Wars universe. Since George Lucas and the rest of
Lucasfilm have never officially stated what they authorize as canon,
there's absolutely nothing that will back up your claim on what may be
considered canon in the Star Wars universe other than people's
opinions. Remember: everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether
or not you agree with them.
4j. What order should I read the books in?
It is usually recommended that you read the books in chronological
order. While there are numerous good timelines on the World
Wide Web, there just isn't enough space to list them all here.
This is the URL of the official Star Wars novel (comics, storybooks,
etc. are excluded) timeline by Del Rey Books, the current
Star Wars publisher.
[http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/starwars/timeline.html]
4k. When did the Emperor have a clone? When did Luke turn to the
Dark Side? When did Luke & Mara Jade get married? Is
Chewbacca dead? Are there any other key events from the
comics which are referenced in the post-ROTJ novels?
The Emperor was resurrected and transferred to a clone body in
the Dark Empire comic series. Luke turned to the Dark Side during
the same comic series as part of his attempt to defeat the Emperor.
Luke married Mara Jade in the Union comic series. Dark Empire
takes place after the events in the Zahn Trilogy and Union takes
place after the "Hand of Thrawn" duology by Zahn.
Lucas has required continuity between the films, novels,
and comics, and various authors have referenced these
events in their novels. At this time, those are the only key
events from the comics which are referenced in the
post-ROTJ novels.
Chewbacca died in the 1999 novel 'Vector Prime' by R.A. Salvatore.
4l. Is <insert actor/actress> dead?
To the best of our knowledge, only the following actors have passed
away:
Shelagh Fraser (Aunt Beru in ANH)
d. Sep. 13, 2000, 77 y.o.
Alec Guinness (Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH, ESB and RotJ)
d. Aug. 6, 2000, 86 y.o.
Jack Purvis (Chief Jawa in ANH, Ugloste in ESB, Teebo in RotJ)
d. Nov. 1997, 60 y.o.
Don Henderson (General Tagge in ANH)
d. Jun. 22, 1997, 64 y.o.
Jeremy Sinden (Gold 2 in ANH)
d. May 29, 1996, 46 y.o.
Moray Bush (Dengar in ESB)
d. in 1995.
Sebastian Shaw (Anakin Skywalker in RotJ)
d. Dec. 23, 1994, 89 y.o.
Peter Cushing (Grand Moff Tarkin in ANH)
d. Aug. 11, 1994, 81 y.o.
Alex McCrindle (General Dodonna in ANH)
d. Apr. 20, 1990, 78 y.o.
Eddie Byrne (Commander Willard in ANH)
d. Aug. 21, 1981, 70 y.o.
Notable crew members that have passed away:
Richard Marquand (Director RotJ)
d. Sept. 4, 1987, 49 y.o.
Leigh Brackett (Writer ESB)
d. Mar. 18, 1978, 62 y.o.
4m. I remember/have heard about a Star Wars TV special in the 1970's
that had Boba Fett in it. Where can I get a copy?
The Star Wars Holiday Special is a 2-hour TV special that aired on CBS
on November 17, 1978. It stared all of the main SW cast except Alec
Guinness. It includes an 11 minute cartoon segment which was Boba
Fett's first appearance. That's the only redeeming thing most SW
fans can find in the Holiday Special. Most of the show is simply
awful. It has musical segments by Carrie Fisher, Bea Arthur,
and many outtakes of ANH special effects.
It centers loosely on Chewbacca trying to get home to see his
family for Life Day.
The Holiday Special, made by Nelvanna, is based on a story treatment,
entitled "The Story of the Faithful Wookie", written by George Lucas.
However, Lucas has been quoted that he wishes he could get his hands
on every copy floating around out there...so he can take a hammer
to them all. It was only aired once and never officially released
on video although there are many bootleg copies around.
4n. Did Natalie Portman play the roles of Amidala, Padme, &
the Queen's decoy (Sabe)?
Natalie Portman played the roles of Amidala and Padme.
Keira Knightley played the role of the Queen's decoy (Sabe).
4o. Why doesn't Qui-Gon disappear when he dies?
From issue 45 of The Insider:
Insider: George, at the end of Ep. I, why doesn't Qui-Gon Jinn
disappear the way Obi-Wan does in ANH and Yoda
does in RotJ?
GL: The Qui-Gon Jinn thing you will discover, as time goes on.
There is a whole issue around that and the ability to disappear.
The key line which you will use to understand this is when Ben
Kenobi tells Darth Vader, "Strike me down and I'll become
more, more..."
(Stops to recall the line)
Insider: "...More powerful than you could possibly imagine."
GL: (laughs) Hey, he's the fan magazine--what do I know about these
things? (laughs) But, that's a key line, and it will be explained as
we go along.
4p. Is Darth Sidious Emperor Palpatine?
While there has been a lot of speculation and debates in SW circles
on if Senator Palpatine, Emperor Palpatine and Darth Sidious are
the same, there has only been the official word that Senator
Palpatine does indeed become Emperor Palpatine and that
there is only a single 'phantom menace'. How fans want
to take this...as misinformation or fact, is up to them.
4q. Did George Lucas or Timothy Zahn come up with the name
"Coruscant" for Imperial Center?
Timothy Zahn is the originator of "Coruscant." George Lucas' original
name for Imperial Center was "Had Abbadon."
4r. Will there be an Episode 7, 8, and 9?
For years people debated as to whether George Lucas was
planning to make six, nine, or even twelve movies for Star
Wars. Whether he was ever planning to make nine movies,
in an interview for Vanity Fair's February 1999 issue, Lucas
stated that he wasn't planning on making the sequels.
When asked about whether he was open to other writers and directors
filming the sequels he said "Probably not. It's my thing."
Whether you're willing to believe Lucas in this latest interview
is your own prerogative.
4s. When will the Original Trilogy be released on DVD?
At this time, there is no timetable for the release of the Original
Trilogy on DVD. Lucasfilm has stated that it will be done after
EP III is released.
4t. What is the title of Episode III?
The title of Episode III probably won't be released until fall of
2004.
4u. When will Episode III be released in theatres?
Episode III will be released, in the United States, in May 2005.
4v. What is the timeline for the Star Wars movies?
The Official Timeline from Lucasfilm....
Episode I is 32 years before EP IV: A New Hope.
Episode II is 10 years after EP I.
Episode III is 2 years after EP II.
Episode IV is 20 years after EP III.
Episode V is 3 years after EP IV.
Episode IV is 1 year after EP V.
Continued in parts 1 and 3.
The document is public domain. Star Wars and all related to it are
© Lucasfilm, Ltd.
Have questions, comments, or suggestions? Contact the maintainers
of the FAQ at: <rass...@shavenwookie.com>
The RASSM FAQ is maintained by usher, Jill-Marie Fritsche,
Tomas, & Sal Waterfall.
Jill Marie
The Rec.Arts.Sf.Starwars.Misc Frequently Asked Questions (RASSM FAQ)
Last updated November 12, 2002
This list of frequently asked questions was written by long-time
readers of RASSM to answer some of the most common concerns of
new readers to the newsgroup about Star Wars and the RASSM group
in general.
Suggestions for the improvement of this FAQ are always welcome.
If you have a question about this FAQ, post it to the group or
e-mail the authors of the FAQ. (E-mail address listed at the end.)
We have broken the lengthy FAQ into three separate parts for your
reading/downloading enjoyment.
5. Commonly asked RASSM questions
5a. Does anyone from Lucasfilm post to or read RASSM?
To the best of our knowledge, no one from Lucasfilm posts to RASSM.
There may be one or two that sporadically read RASSM. George Lucas
does not post to or read RASSM.
5b. Do any of the authors post to or read RASSM?
In the past, authors such as Kevin J. Anderson, Michael P.
Kube-McDowell, Michael A. Stackpole, & Ann C. Crispin have
participated in RASSM. Some of these authors have left the group
due to personal (not professional) criticisms received during their
stay and caution other authors who are considering participating in
RASSM from doing so. However, the majority of RASSMer's do welcome
the authors to the group and appreciate their efforts to "mingle" with
the fan community.
Also, some members of the Dark Horse Comics staff which work on the
various Star Wars comic series do lurk and occasionally post. Dan
Wallace, author of the Essential Guide to Planets and Moons, has been
known to pop in every now and then. Last, but not least, Rich
Handley, who contributes to various Star Wars publications, can often
be found in RASSM.
5c. Is it okay to post my fan-fiction to RASSM?
Posting fan-fiction is definitely encouraged on RASSM, but many
RASSMers, either on their own moral accord or for want of staying on
Lucasfilm's good side, do have their limits as to the content of the
fan-fiction. Quoted from article entitled "Scotty, Beam Down the
Lawyers" by Jennifer Granick in the October 1997 issue of Wired
Magazine on page 86: "While making no long-term policy, Marc Hedlund,
director of Internet development for Lucasfilm, says the company
tolerates the publication of fan fiction, so long as the stories are
not for commercial gain, and don't sully the 'family' image of the
Star Wars characters."
5d. What's wrong with Star Wars vs. Star Trek threads?
First, Star Wars vs. Star Trek threads are off charter. Second,
they violate the no crossposting rule. Third, they create all sorts
of problems for everyone involved. However, if you are still inclined
to partake in one of these discussions, alt.startrek.vs.starwars
exists for all your debating wants and needs.
5e. Who/What is Gonk?
In Star Wars: A New Hope where C-3PO and R2D2 are lamenting their life
struggles in the jawa sandcrawler, the camera pans around this droid
junk pile where you'll notice a droid, which bears a striking
resemblance to a trashcan, wobbling back and forth giving a deep,
mechanical "gomp... gomp... gomp..." In a "Where's Waldo" fashion,
this droid appears throughout the SW movies. That's Gonk.
RASSM's claim to fame in the Star Wars world has been contributing
the name "Gonk" to the power droid in the early 1990's.
5f. What are the Sith Wars?
A war between the Lords of the Sith in the Star Wars mythos? Nope,
guess again. What once began as a fun spirited insult match between
two people, the Sith Wars has grown into a large role playing story
with a very loose basis in the Star Wars universe that several
RASSMers participate in.
To learn more about the Sith Wars go to:
The Official RASSM Home Page's Sith War Archive
[http://www.shavenwookie.com/orhp/history/sithwars.html]
Sith War 8 archives:
Darth Gumby's Sith War Archive:
[http://home.netcom.com/~gumby42/SW8.html]
Sith War 9 archives:
Sith War 10 archives:
Rainbow Heron's Sith War 2002 Archive:
[http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/sw2002.htm]
5g. What are these references to the Gonk War, ART, and other ongoing
stories?
The Sith Wars are not the only ongoing story that RASSMers have
immersed themselves in. You'll see RASSMers discuss threads they
have participated in as if they were trading old war stories. Some
of the more famous ones include the Gonk War, the soap opera
As RASSM Turns (ART), the Official RASSM Movies (ORMs), the Chucky
Waldman trial, and the RASSM Summit. For more information on some
of these past events, visit the History Section of the ORHP
[http://www.shavenwookie.com/orhp/].
5h. What is the NRG/RASSM's Novel Reading Group?
Some RASSMers, (well mostly just Policrat', John Donchig, Simon
Lee and Jill Marie...) participate in something called the
Novel Reading Group (NRG) in which they read novels in a specific
order and then discuss them on RASSM. Anyone is encouraged
to participate in NRG threads.
Jill-Marie Fritsche currently maintains the NRG FAQ and schedule. The
FAQ is periodically posted to RASSM and can also be found in the Brief
Introduction to RASSM section of the ORHP
[http://www.shavenwookie.com/orhp]
5i. What is #rassm and @rassm?
#rassm is a chat channel on the IRC network Starlink (not to be
confused with Starlink-IRC) that allows conversational discussion
about anything that one chooses to talk about. To learn more
about how to participate on #rassm, visit
[http://members.tripod.com/~Melosh/poundrassmfaq.html].
The @rassm mailing list was created to divert off-topic material
away from RASSM and is more like the newsgroup format. To learn how
to join @rassm, visit [http://electricrain.com/rassm].
5j. What is D.O.L.L.?
Dirty Old Ladies League (Founder, Theresa Wojtasiewicz.
Members, Theresa, Anne, Nesha, ). They think salacious thoughts
of tender young morsels like Ewan McGregor and
Hayden Christensen. Membership requirements:
must be over forty. Can be married (married but not dead!)
or single (single and preferably not dead) and must be
appreciative of fine young males...
5k. What is with this fascination with Porkins?
In Sep. of 2000, a person (gender still unknown) that goes
by the nick of Jade, posted about the greatness of Red 6,
Jek Porkins in ANH. This sparked a Sith War between the
Porkinites and the Gungan Mafia. Since then, the Porkinites
have grown in number and have participated in many Sith Wars.
They laud obesity and gluttony and, of course, Porkins'
greatness.
5L. Who is this JWK? Why mustn't I mention his name?
James W. King or JWK is a dreaded RASSM nemesis. He has
a very annoying posting style and has a way of twisting
an argument that is infuriating. It is said that if you mention
his name on RASSM, he will appear. You will see J*K or
a variant, when referenced by RASSMers.
5m. What is this dreaded Balance Point Thread?
The original thread (aka BPT) started in 10/01 and was about
the NJO book "Balance Point'. Unfortunately, most NRG
members are allergic to snipping their threads and it quickly
became a thread out of control and way, way, way off-topic.
At last count, the last post was almost 88 kb.
5n. Why do many non-RASSM people dislike RASSM?
We used to have a big, flowery, eloquent section here when the FAQ was
much larger than it is now. However, in the spirit of condensation for
the masses, here's the abridged version:
RASSM = anarchy. Anarchy = people doing stuff other people won't
necessarily like. People doing stuff other people won't necessarily
like = bitchy people. Bitchy people = cranky oldbies. Cranky oldbies
= flamed posters. Flamed posters = splitters. Splitters = complaints.
Complaints = bad reputation.
So, going by whichever theorem that states if a = b and b = c then
a = c, RASSM = bad reputation. But as long as you've read the FAQ
and adhere to the guidelines within, no one will kill you.
5o. Did you see the stormtrooper/Jango Fett hit his head?
Yes, many of us actually did. However, this rather funny blooper has
been mentioned so many times on RASSM that some like to deny that it
ever happened. They've seen it, but they will continue to deny it.
Luckily, you read this FAQ to learn this interesting tidbit
about RASSM readers before you felt the need to inform a
newsgroup of Star Wars fans who have been watching the
movies for twenty years that you just discovered this blooper.
Continued in parts 1 and 2.
Jill Marie
The Rec.Arts.Sf.Starwars.Misc Frequently Asked Questions (RASSM FAQ)
Last updated November 12, 2002
This list of frequently asked questions was written by long-time
readers of RASSM to answer some of the most common concerns of
new readers to the newsgroup about Star Wars and the RASSM group
in general.
Suggestions for the improvement of this FAQ are always welcome.
If you have a question about this FAQ, post it to the group or
e-mail the authors of the FAQ. (E-mail address listed at the end.)
We have broken the lengthy FAQ into three separate parts for your
reading/downloading enjoyment.
1. What is RASSM?
RASSM is an acronym for the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc
and its participants are known as RASSMers. It is a place where
Star Wars fans can discuss the movies, Expanded Universe, and anything
related to them, providing that there is not another forum for the
discussion. RASSM is an unmoderated newsgroup, but people are asked
to follow the general guidelines of netiquette.
1a. Where can I find more information about RASSM?
Shaven Wookie, Ltd. [http://www.shavenwookie.com] is the home to
several sites dedicated to RASSM. It is recommended that you
visit The Official RASSM Homepage [http://www.shavenwookie.com/orhp].
2. Newsgroups and Netiquette
2a. Are there any other Star Wars newsgroups?
Other Star Wars newsgroups in the RASS.* hierarchy are:
rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.customizing - custom made items
rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage - vintage collectibles
rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.misc - new/current collectibles
rec.arts.sf.starwars.games - all Star Wars games
rec.arts.sf.starwars.info - announcement group (moderated)
There are also Star Wars groups on the alt.* hierarchy, some of which
overlap RASSM as far as topics are concerned and some which many
RASSMers prefer certain discussions be diverted.
alt.binaries.starwars - any attached/binary file (.jpg, .wav, .zip)
alt.fan.palpatine - a newsgroup dedicated to Emperor Palpatine
alt.fan.porkins - a newsgroup dedicated to Jek Porkins,
the heavyset pilot in ANH
alt.fan.starwars - alt group counterpart to RASSM
alt.fan.wedge - dedicated to the character Wedge and the X-Wing
novels/comics
alt.starwars.xvt - X-wing vs. TIE fighter game
alt.startrek.vs.starwars - any Star Trek vs. Star Wars debate
Yahoo! provides a listing of web-based newsservers that allow
posting and reading of Usenet newsgroups, if your ISP does not
have a newsserver of its own. Some of these services
are free and some are not. Of interest is Google Groups
[http://groups.google.com], the usenet archive formerly known
as DejaNews.
2b. What does it mean to be "on charter"?
The rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc Charter: "This newsgroup will be open
to discussion of all miscellaneous issues and topics pertaining to
Star Wars not covered by other newsgroups in the rec.arts.sf.starwars
hierarchy."
Therefore, the "misc" in rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc does not
mean any miscellaneous topic pertaining to Star Wars. If in
doubt, consult the FAQs of the various rec.arts.sf.starwars.*
newsgroups to determine the appropriate place/location for your post.
2c. What are binaries and why can't they be posted here?
Binaries are files that you attach to your message. (Examples: .jpg,
.gif, .wav, .mid, .zip, .doc, .txt, .zip) Binaries should never be
posted to non-binary newsgroups. If there is a binary that you wish
to share with everyone, post it to the appropriate binary newsgroup,
such as alt.binaries.starwars, or put it on a website and then post
a message to RASSM indicating the location of said binary.
2d. Why can't "For Sale/For Auction/For Trade/Wanted" messages be
posted here?
For Sale/For Auction/For Trade/Wanted posts are *off charter* and not
welcome in RASSM. Such posts should be directed to one of the
sci-fi marketplace newsgroups. If you happen to make such a post to
RASSM, expect to have someone notify you, via e-mail or RASSM, that
such posts don't belong in RASSM.
2e. What is HTML and why should I not post in it?
HTML stands for "hypertext markup language" and is used for creating
web pages. People who use web browsers to read newsgroups are able
to see messages encoded in HTML with different fonts, colors, italics,
etc. However, those who don't use a web browser cannot see the HTML
code and will see something similar to this:
<.doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<.html> stuff typed here
<.p>someone's name
<.p>someone wrote:
<.blockquote TYPE=CITE> someone says something<.br>that's
quoted.
Newsgroups are text-based forums so HTML is discouraged. Web
browsers such as Internet Explorer and Netscape have the HTML feature
for e-mail and posting set on by default. Visit
[http://www.houghi.org]
if you need assistance in turning the HTML feature in your browser
off.
2f. What is crossposting and why should I not do it?
Crossposting is posting the same message to multiple newsgroups at the
same time. It is considered poor netiquette to crosspost even if the
message is on charter/on-topic for the selected newsgroups. If there
is something that should be posted to multiple newsgroups, then the
message should be sent to each newsgroup one at a time instead of
posting to all of them at once. Many a flamewar between RASSM
and alt.fan.starwars (and other groups) has been started with
crossposting.
2g. What is a spoiler? How do I post spoilers?
Often, when something new appears in the Star Wars universe,
people try to avoid discussion of it because they want to experience
it first hand for themselves, i.e. they don't want it spoiled for
them. Examples of this are news concerning the prequels, new
books, or new videos games. If it's new (generally a month
old or less), give it a spoiler warning. Discussion is
encouraged, but you are still asked to be polite and
give the following courtesies:
1) No spoilers in the subject header
Good: "{Spoiler} EP III Casting Rumour"
Bad: "Chris Hawkins cast as young Chewbacca in Episode 3:
Will the Wookies be Shaven?"
2) Spoiler Space. Put about 25 blank space lines between the
header of your post and the body, topped with a line like
"Prequel Spoiler". This ensures that those wishing to remain
unspoiled have a second chance if they miss your subject line.
2h. What is a troll?
A troll is an individual who makes a post to a newsgroup with the
express purpose of eliciting a specific response from the individuals
in that particular newsgroup. Often, trolls will crosspost to several
newsgroups in an attempt to cause a flamewar (see 2i) between the
posters of those groups. Usually, it is quite easy to determine if
someone is attempting to troll a newsgroup and the best way to
interact with a troll is to ignore him/her as they don't get any
satisfaction from a lack of response.
2i. What is a flame? What is a flame war?
A flame is a harsh insult, often laced with profanity. A flamewar is
when two or more individuals decide to flame each other on Usenet,
thereby exposing everyone else to their fight. Flame wars quickly
flare up on once everyone not involved gets sick of the fight and
decides to have their own fit about it. This can cause a chain
reaction that, if not contained, can cause a newsgroup to go
"nuclear." The best way to deal with a flame is to ignore it. If
one is unable to do that, then respond via e-mail and keep
it out of the newsgroup.
2j. What is a killfile?
A killfile is a newsgroup filter, which allows an individual to filter
out messages by other individuals. They are usually reserved for
trolls and individuals a person just can no longer tolerate.
Information on using killfiles/filters can be found in the help
section of your particular program.
2k. How much should I quote in my reply?
Quote no more than absolutely necessary to reply. Threads with 2000+
lines of quoted text and ten lines of original text are not looked
kindly upon. In fact, if a thread is at over the 2000+ line mark, it's
probably gone completely off-topic and should be taken to email.
(This means you, Balance Point Threaders.)
2l. Where can I find out more about newsgroups & netiquette?
The following websites should provide one with all he/she wants/needs
to know about newsgroups and netiquette.
Zen and the Art of the Internet - Usenet News
[http://www.cs.indiana.edu/docproject/zen/zen-1.0_6.html]
news.newusers.questions Links Page
[http://member.newsguy.com/~schramm/nnqlinks.html]
The Net: User Guidelines and Netiquette
[http://www.fau.edu/netiquette/net/dis.html]
3. Common Abbreviations
There are two main types of abbreviations that you might come across:
a) those in the subject headers often called "tags", which are used to
help people see what a post is about, and b) those within posts.
3a. Headers Used on RASSM
[COMIC]: about the Star Wars comic books
[FANFIC]: fan fiction
[NRG]: Novel Reading Group; contains spoilers for the Star Wars novels
[OFF/OT]: the post is largely off-topic
[ORHP] Official RASSM Homepage
[RASSM]: deals with issues concerning the newsgroup
[RASSMCon]: reports and information about meetings between RASSMers
[REPOST]: a repost of an old thread
[SITH WAR]: part of an ongoing role-play story
[SPECULATION]: indicates someone is speculating about what might
happen in the prequels
[SPOILER]: something in this thread reveals information about a movie,
novel, or comic that may not be common knowledge
[WWW]: World Wide Web; message contains web page information
3b. Within posts
AFAIK: As Far As I Know
BTM: Behind the Magic; A comprehensive guide to the Star Wars universe
put out by Lucasarts
CG(I): Computer Graphics
EU: Expanded Universe (novels & comics)
FACPOV: From A Certain Point Of View
GFFA: Galaxy Far, Far Away
GL: George Lucas
IIRC: If I Recall Correctly
IMHO: In My Humble Opinion
IMO: In My Opinion
LA or LEC: LucasArts Entertainment Company (Lucas's game company)
LFL: Lucasfilm Limited (Lucas's movie company)
LOL: Laughing Out Loud
NRG: Novel Reading Group
ORHP: Official RASSM Homepage
ROTFL: Rolling on the Floor Laughing
MTFBWY(A): May the Force Be With You... Always
SP?: Stands for spelling; person is unsure about their spelling
SW: Star Wars
WEG: West End Games (former makers of the Star Wars role playing game)
WotC: Wizards of the Coast (current makers of the SW role
playing game)
Movies:
OT: Original Trilogy
PT: Prequel Trilogy
ANH: Episode IV, A New Hope; also SW or SW:ANH
(T)ESB: Episode V, The Empire Strikes Back
ROTJ: Episode VI, Return of the Jedi
SE: Special Editions (SW:SE = Star Wars Special Edition)
TPM: Episode I, The Phantom Menace
AOTC: Episode II, Attack of the Clones
Some Ship Names:
DS: Death Star
MF: Millennium Falcon
SD: Star Destroyer
SSD: Super Star Destroyer/Executor
XW: X-Wing (also YW, AW, BW, EW, etc.)
T/F: TIE fighter (also T/B, T/A, T/I, T/D, etc.)
Some Novel Names (see NRG FAQ for more novel abbreviations):
SotE: Shadows of the Empire by Steve Perry (1996)
SotME: Splinter of the Mind's Eye by Alan Dean Foster (1978)
Continued in parts 2 and 3.
Muuurgh
I want to know the answer!!
-Muuurgh
"Jill Marie" <ra...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:YGS1a.45480$zF6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jill Marie
Muuurgh <we...@isagirl.com> wrote :
> What happened to "Who is Annoying Man!!?"
> I want to know the answer!!
>
> -Muuurgh
Not enough people were asking it, I'm afraid. Thus, it's not a
frequently asked question anymore.
~~jill marie
Muuurgh
"Jill Marie" <ra...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
Thats a shame. This knowledge may be lost to all generations because YOU
thought it to be irrelevant.
The Greeks were thought irrelevant for 1200+ years, and look what they've
accomplished! Look what happened when the knowledge of the Greeks was
sought after again in the 13th century AD!
-Muuurgh
This is obviously a clear case of history being doomed to repeat itself.
Wait until Annoying Man is disclosed once again to an unsuspecting youth 100
years from now. There will be a great revival!!
>
>
> ~~jill marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
I once tried to come up with an "Infrequently Asked Questions" list, but
there were just way too many.
Steve Tilson
- but "Why is Steve Tilson so cool?" was one of them
--
The avalanche has begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
policrat'
board!
>
> "Jill Marie" <ra...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
> news:zqT1a.45535$zF6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> Muuurgh <we...@isagirl.com> wrote :
>>
>>> What happened to "Who is Annoying Man!!?"
>>> I want to know the answer!!
>>>
>>> -Muuurgh
>>
>> Not enough people were asking it, I'm afraid. Thus, it's not a
>> frequently asked question anymore.
>
> Thats a shame. This knowledge may be lost to all generations because YOU
> thought it to be irrelevant.
> The Greeks were thought irrelevant for 1200+ years, and look what they've
> accomplished! Look what happened when the knowledge of the Greeks was
> sought after again in the 13th century AD!
Um... I have to disagree with you on this!
> -Muuurgh
> This is obviously a clear case of history being doomed to repeat itself.
> Wait until Annoying Man is disclosed once again to an unsuspecting youth 100
> years from now. There will be a great revival!!
Perhaps...
Pol'
Muuurgh
"policrat'" <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BA6DDDCD.1F32%policr...@hotmail.com...
> Muuurgh! I should have recognized your foul stench when I was brought on
> board!
>
> >
> > "Jill Marie" <ra...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
> > news:zqT1a.45535$zF6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>
> >> Muuurgh <we...@isagirl.com> wrote :
> >>
> >>> What happened to "Who is Annoying Man!!?"
> >>> I want to know the answer!!
> >>>
> >>> -Muuurgh
> >>
> >> Not enough people were asking it, I'm afraid. Thus, it's not a
> >> frequently asked question anymore.
> >
> > Thats a shame. This knowledge may be lost to all generations because
YOU
> > thought it to be irrelevant.
> > The Greeks were thought irrelevant for 1200+ years, and look what
they've
> > accomplished! Look what happened when the knowledge of the Greeks was
> > sought after again in the 13th century AD!
>
> Um... I have to disagree with you on this!
Disagree with what!? The Renaissance--Giotto. It all began there, 1250 AD
or so.
-Muuurgh
policrat'
board!
>
> "policrat'" <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:BA6DDDCD.1F32%policr...@hotmail.com...
>> Muuurgh! I should have recognized your foul stench when I was brought on
>> board!
>>
>>>
>>> "Jill Marie" <ra...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
>>> news:zqT1a.45535$zF6.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>>>
>>>> Muuurgh <we...@isagirl.com> wrote :
>>>>
>>>>> What happened to "Who is Annoying Man!!?"
>>>>> I want to know the answer!!
>>>>>
>>>>> -Muuurgh
>>>>
>>>> Not enough people were asking it, I'm afraid. Thus, it's not a
>>>> frequently asked question anymore.
>>>
>>> Thats a shame. This knowledge may be lost to all generations because
>>> YOU thought it to be irrelevant. The Greeks were thought irrelevant for
>>> 1200+ years, and look what they've accomplished! Look what happened when
>>> the knowledge of the Greeks was sought after again in the 13th century AD!
>>
>> Um... I have to disagree with you on this!
>
> Disagree with what!? The Renaissance--Giotto. It all began there, 1250 AD
> or so.
FACPOV... though Giotto's nearer 1350, and couldn't speak Greek - he's
famous, in fact, for moving *away* from the Byzantine-inspired painting
sytles then prevalent in Italy... anyway, in 1250, Italy was kinda way
behind France and England on the Greek-speaking, Aristotle-and-Plato reading
front... except the very south, which was Greek-speaking - and of course,
the Greeks always read Greek.
Of course, there is the caveat that most of Plato's works were probably only
known at Plato's Academy itself (relocated in Carrhae c. 550 and there until
at least c. 1050)... read Tardieu, "'Sabiens' Koraniques et 'Sabiens' de
Harran", _Journal Asiatique_ (1985, IIRC), for the survival of Platonism
through this period - though he doesn't tie in with Psellus and the
Byzantine rediscovery of Plato as well as IMHO he could...
So no, the Greeks were never "thought of as irrelevant", and their knowledge
never stopped being 'sought after'... IMHO, at least...
> -Muuurgh
Pol'
Muuurgh
You're right, Giotto lived 1266-1337. My bad. I'm talking about the
Renaissance, though. Not the Dark ages, where classical antiquity was
merely copied, never sought after in an attempt to bring it back to life.
So, no I exaggerated when I said it was thought of as "irrelevant". But it
wasn't until Giotto, Cimabue, Giovanni Pisano and Arnolfo di Cambio that we
see a beginning of rebirth.
It may be argued that the Renaissance began with Petrarch 1304-1374. He
felt that that the Middle Ages were a time of darkness. That a "new light
was arising" that he was "born too early", this 'light' he referred to was
Giotto's work, and this is the first time some one expressed the need to
rebirth the Classic Antiquity. In order to have a Renaissance, you must
have "innovation"-an alteration of what has already been established-before
you can have an innovation you must first have a constant establishment; a
tradition, a convention, a style or a mode of thought. If we have a simple
revival of something at any given time, and in effect doesn't change the
before mentioned mean or mode of thought then it is not a true Renaissance
but a renascence, because it has an end, and did not change the course of
the constant. We know that the Renaissance changed the course of history.
And this is what I was referring to when I said "This is obviously a clear
case of history being doomed to repeat itself. Wait until Annoying Man is
disclosed once again to an unsuspecting youth 100 years from now. There
will be a great revival!!"
-Muuurgh
There was no revival in the Dark Ages, mere renascences at best. Read Erwin
Panofsky's: Renaissance and Renascence in Western Art.
>
> > -Muuurgh
>
> Pol'
>
C'Pi
Congratulations to Pol and Muuurgh for taking a boring routine FAQ post and
turning it into without a doubt the most boring thread ever created.
Salute!
--
C'Pi
'If you ain't
down with Porkins
you ain't shit'
Lefty Skywalker
> There was no revival in the Dark Ages, mere renascences at best. Read Erwin
> Panofsky's: Renaissance and Renascence in Western Art.
It's really too bad you folks are so literary. If you weren't you might
find time to realize that the "dark ages" weren't so static as you claim.
Seige engines lead directly to physics and calculus. People went from
plowing with sticks to plowing with serious metal blades, and farming
productivity went up dramatically. People made windmills and water
wheels, ancestral to propellers and turbine engines. Said devices
benefitied from engineering advances like the concepts of torque, energy,
and power. Trade guilds had many of the benefits of unions and trade
associations without the idiotic Marxist animosity that's been the
rallying cry for the last hundred and fifty years. Technology that
trickled down from clockmaking is now *everywhere* - look at your printer,
it bears more mechanical resemblance to a clock than to a printing press.
Same goes for your car, especially its engine valves and its
transmission. Clockmaking also led to proper machine tools. The textile
industry also improved tremendously.
Just because some nerd with a phony Latin name didn't write about it in a
book, doesn't mean it wasn't going on.
Daniel O. Miller
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whosoever does not know it and can no longer marvel, is as good
as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein
WWYD?
Jill Marie
<snip>
> > -Muuurgh
> > There was no revival in the Dark Ages, mere
> > renascences at best. Read Erwin Panofsky's:
> > Renaissance and Renascence in Western Art.
>
> Congratulations to Pol and Muuurgh for taking a
> boring routine FAQ post
Boring? Routine? My post this is!
> and turning it into without a doubt the most boring
> thread ever created.
>
> Salute!
LOL! I was just thinking this same thing.
~~jill marie
John Donchig
> So no, the Greeks were never "thought of as irrelevant", and their knowledge
> never stopped being 'sought after'... IMHO, at least...
>
>
>>-Muuurgh
>
>
> Pol'
>
Don't make me bring up the Catholic Church.
John
John Donchig
> Congratulations to Pol and Muuurgh for taking a boring routine FAQ post and
> turning it into without a doubt the most boring thread ever created.
>
> Salute!
"Most boring thread ever created"? Harrumph! I demand you show the
latter entries in the BPT the respect they deserve in this regard.
John
John Donchig
If your point is that all progress is ongoing, I agree totally. To
quote one of those Latin speaking folk you're not so fond of, "If we see
far ahead it is because we stand on the shoulders of giants." (Pol,
you'd better recognize this).
BUT, if we confine "The Dark Ages" to the era between the fall of Rome
(c. 476 CE) and Charlemagne's coronation (c. 800 CE), then none of the
things you mention specifically apply. At least, I don't think they do;
Pol will know better--he's not 2 years out of school as I am. And no,
the "Dark Ages" weren't nearly so dark as popular imagination would
paint them, but compared to advances seen in the latter medieval period,
especially the High Middle Ages (c. 1050-1300), not a *whole* helluva
lot went on....
John
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
The earlier ones, too.
And so it shouldn't be a total loss, all the ones in between.
Steve Tilson
C'Pi
> C'Pi <jas...@noyahoo.com> wrote:
>> Muuurgh wrote:
>>> "policrat'" <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> -Muuurgh
>>> There was no revival in the Dark Ages, mere
>>> renascences at best. Read Erwin Panofsky's:
>>> Renaissance and Renascence in Western Art.
>>
>> Congratulations to Pol and Muuurgh for taking a
>> boring routine FAQ post
>
> Boring? Routine? My post this is!
Oops...and an exhilarating A-#1 FAQ post it was. Jill Marie...the best FAQ
on Usenet.
C'Pi
BPT went way beyond boring. It entered such an entirely new dimension of
boringness they haven't yet invented a name to describe it.
My God! It's that Hawkins Guy
> Boring? Routine? My post this is!
You could easily shorten the whole FAQ. All you need is one simple
question and a pointer to the ORHP. :)
Later,
Chris
John Donchig
C'Pi wrote:
> John Donchig wrote:
>
>>>Congratulations to Pol and Muuurgh for taking a boring routine FAQ
>>>post and turning it into without a doubt the most boring thread ever
>>>created.
>>>
>>>Salute!
>>
>>"Most boring thread ever created"? Harrumph! I demand you show the
>>latter entries in the BPT the respect they deserve in this regard.
>
>
> BPT went way beyond boring. It entered such an entirely new dimension of
> boringness they haven't yet invented a name to describe it.
Then that's your job for the day--find and coin a new word for it.
John
C'Pi
Sizzbat. No that sound too exciting. Blerng. Not too bad. That BPT was
really blerng.
policrat'
Balls.
[see below]
> So, no I exaggerated when I said it was thought of as "irrelevant". But it
> wasn't until Giotto, Cimabue, Giovanni Pisano and Arnolfo di Cambio that we
> see a beginning of rebirth.
Balls. In Italian painting, maybe...
> It may be argued that the Renaissance began with Petrarch 1304-1374. He
> felt that that the Middle Ages were a time of darkness. That a "new light
> was arising" that he was "born too early", this 'light' he referred to was
> Giotto's work, and this is the first time some one expressed the need to
> rebirth the Classic Antiquity. In order to have a Renaissance, you must
> have "innovation"-an alteration of what has already been established-before
> you can have an innovation you must first have a constant establishment; a
> tradition, a convention, a style or a mode of thought. If we have a simple
> revival of something at any given time, and in effect doesn't change the
> before mentioned mean or mode of thought then it is not a true Renaissance
> but a renascence, because it has an end, and did not change the course of
> the constant. We know that the Renaissance changed the course of history.
> And this is what I was referring to when I said "This is obviously a clear
> case of history being doomed to repeat itself. Wait until Annoying Man is
> disclosed once again to an unsuspecting youth 100 years from now. There
> will be a great revival!!"
>
> -Muuurgh
> There was no revival in the Dark Ages, mere renascences at best. Read Erwin
> Panofsky's: Renaissance and Renascence in Western Art.
I have to fundamentally disagree, I'm afraid ;)
The problem is that modern ideas of Classical Antiquity and the Middle Ages
are conditioned by the Renaissance. People lack the knowledge of context to
understand what medieval man was doing. At the very least (cf for instance
Huizinga, _The Waning of the Middle Ages_), the Renaissance was the
consummation of a medieval idea of _renovatio Romae_ which could finally be
achieved by economic growth, the growth of the city-republic, and the
development of a new, literate lay elite with a 'historical' consciousness
that firmly separated 'civilized' antiquity with the 'barbarian' middle
ages.... the term 'Renaissance' itself is first recorded in a Balzac novel
c. 1830...
But... well, to be brief, the Middle Ages were _full_ of people inspired by
the literature, art, architecture, politics, morality, philosophy and law of
Classical antiquity - imitating it and innovating on the basis of their
knowledge of it... everywhere in Europe... it is to them that we owe the
great cathedrals, the nation-state, statute law, Dante's _Divina Commedia_
and _Monarchia_, the romances of Chretien de Troyes, and probably the
portrait... and lots more things that *should* be better known than they
are, but without which, and without all the manuscripts they read and
copied, the Renaissance would have had nothing to go on except a very few
overgrown ruins... above all, the idea that the classical past was
*important* was something inherited from the Middle Ages...
And can Leonardo or Michaelangelo really be said to owe anything to
Greece...?
But don't even get me started on Napoleon =)
So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of usunet
posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the Google
cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
Pol'
policrat'
brought on board!
> On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Muuurgh wrote:
>
>> There was no revival in the Dark Ages, mere renascences at best. Read Erwin
>> Panofsky's: Renaissance and Renascence in Western Art.
>
> It's really too bad you folks are so literary. If you weren't you might
> find time to realize that the "dark ages" weren't so static as you claim.
> Seige engines lead directly to physics and calculus. People went from
> plowing with sticks to plowing with serious metal blades, and farming
> productivity went up dramatically. People made windmills and water
> wheels, ancestral to propellers and turbine engines. Said devices
> benefitied from engineering advances like the concepts of torque, energy,
> and power. Trade guilds had many of the benefits of unions and trade
> associations without the idiotic Marxist animosity that's been the
> rallying cry for the last hundred and fifty years. Technology that
> trickled down from clockmaking is now *everywhere* - look at your printer,
> it bears more mechanical resemblance to a clock than to a printing press.
> Same goes for your car, especially its engine valves and its
> transmission. Clockmaking also led to proper machine tools. The textile
> industry also improved tremendously.
>
> Just because some nerd with a phony Latin name didn't write about it in a
> book, doesn't mean it wasn't going on.
I never said it wasn't... though I feel the need to rush to the defence of
the medieval division of the World Congress of Nerds with Phony Latin Names
- without them needing to know when terce was, we wouldn't have the clocks
in the first place.
I also suspect that a lot of the leg-work in the development of such things
was actually done by said nerds too - and some with phony Greek names as
well... for instance, the water-wheel - first recorded in Rome in the C6th -
was *definately* spread by them, and refined from a mid-stream barge to a
permanent building with a lade or race in the process...
> Daniel O. Miller
Sincerely,
Policraticus McEwok of Wookie
Unofficial RASSM Scotsman (Retd.)
policrat'
on board!
>> So no, the Greeks were never "thought of as irrelevant", and their knowledge
I see your anticlericalism, and raise you a Lord Acton...
> John
Pol'
policrat'
on board!
>
>
Bernard of Chartres, C12th AD. And very nicely alluded to in the iconography
of the windows the south transept of the cathedral, overlooking the spot
where he taught...
Though I'll add that IMHO, the idea of linear, quantifiable progress is a
nasty little shibboleth... and ideological change can have a major change on
people's POVs...
> BUT, if we confine "The Dark Ages" to the era between the fall of Rome
> (c. 476 CE) and Charlemagne's coronation (c. 800 CE), then none of the
> things you mention specifically apply. At least, I don't think they do;
> Pol will know better--he's not 2 years out of school as I am. And no,
> the "Dark Ages" weren't nearly so dark as popular imagination would
> paint them, but compared to advances seen in the latter medieval period,
> especially the High Middle Ages (c. 1050-1300), not a *whole* helluva
> lot went on....
Actually, that's the period that sees most of the development of the
watermill, and (juding by tree-ring analysis) a lot of the development of
the plough and growth in farming through the clearing of waste... as to the
clock, it's a difficult question, but the water-clock was known from the
Hellenistic period, and I wouldn't have put it past the Byzantines or the
'Sabians' of Carrhae (= Plato's Academy, I kid you not) to have developed
the basic mechanical clock by 800 - though the mainspring only came about in
the C16th...
=)
> John
You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
Pol'
policrat'
when I was brought on board!
> Jill Marie wrote:
Troll!-)
Pol'
John Donchig
I'm not anti-cleric, just anti-Church. I know I don't have to point out
to you that clerics were often the only people responsible for
preserving knowledge that would have otherwise been lost, oftentimes
deliberately by the Church. Thank goodness for the early hermits in
Egypt and the later hermits in the British Isles.
*sigh* Of course, I always feel like I'm preaching to the choir when an
historical argument pops up and you're involved....
And as for Lord Acton, we are in his debt. And he was right, near
absolute power nearly corrupted the Church absolutely.
John
Lefty Skywalker
> You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
I tried, really I did, especailly since I've enjoyed his other works so
much. But it started out annyoing, and then got strange, and then got
stupid, and I put it down.
Muuurgh
Giovanni Pisano--Sculpture
Arnolfo di Cambio--Architecture
Should I list some of the dispensations and the artists within??
We suffer from different perspectives. Mine is purely an art historical
POV.
Chritianization, Orientalization and barbarism during the middle ages
eclipsed classical culture. The Carolingian Empire sought to restore some
of what was lost, but they only managed to copy classical text. And when
there was nothing to copy, there was no invention--artistically. There were
other movements as well, the proto-humanists, Ottonian, anglo-saxon, etc.
each contributed but they too ended with no great contribution, or course
altering attribute. The reason the middle-ages suffered was because the
Christianization of Europe allowed Greek art to be incorporated into
society, but the meanings of the works were Christianized, the Greek gods
and goddesses were made to pay homage or tribute to the saints or God. So,
much knowledge was lost do to this worldview, and this is why those of the
Renaissance sought to restore what was lost as well as change the course of
the "Dark Ages".
I agree. Much of what we know today is heavily conditioned by the Italians
worldview of the 16th century. I.e, Vasari, who recorded much of what
happened during the Renaissance, thought that Italians were superior and he
did not even mention the Netherlands or Germany and their contributions to
the Renaissance! To say that the Renaissance was the 'Italian Renaissance'
is untrue. Anyhow. I can't compete with you. I only took a few Art
History classes in school. I know very little about these subjects.
>
> But... well, to be brief, the Middle Ages were _full_ of people inspired
by
> the literature, art, architecture, politics, morality, philosophy and law
of
> Classical antiquity - imitating it and innovating on the basis of their
> knowledge of it... everywhere in Europe... it is to them that we owe the
> great cathedrals, the nation-state, statute law, Dante's _Divina Commedia_
> and _Monarchia_, the romances of Chretien de Troyes, and probably the
> portrait... and lots more things that *should* be better known than they
> are, but without which, and without all the manuscripts they read and
> copied, the Renaissance would have had nothing to go on except a very few
> overgrown ruins... above all, the idea that the classical past was
> *important* was something inherited from the Middle Ages...
>
> And can Leonardo or Michaelangelo really be said to owe anything to
> Greece...?
I think they owe everything to Greece. That is the whole point of the
Renaissance, they sought to rebirth Classical Antiquity, they copied it and
innovated from it. Without the Greeks, there never would have been a
Renaissance.
>
> But don't even get me started on Napoleon =)
Please do.
>
> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of usunet
> posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the Google
> cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
>
> Pol'
*pounce*
ANNOYING MAN WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU!!
*pounce*
Annoying.
Annoying.
Annoying.*pounce*
*pounce*
Annoying.
Annoying.
Long live ANNOYING MAN!!!!!
*pounce*
*pounce*
-Muuurgh
policrat'
on board!
>
>
> policrat' wrote:
>> John Donchig! I should have recognized your foul stench when I was brought
>> on board!
>>
>>
>>>> So no, the Greeks were never "thought of as irrelevant", and their
>>>> knowledge
>>>> never stopped being 'sought after'... IMHO, at least...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -Muuurgh
>>>>
>>>> Pol'
>>>
>>> Don't make me bring up the Catholic Church.
>>
>>
>> I see your anticlericalism, and raise you a Lord Acton...
>
> I'm not anti-cleric, just anti-Church. I know I don't have to point out
> to you that clerics were often the only people responsible for
> preserving knowledge that would have otherwise been lost, oftentimes
> deliberately by the Church. Thank goodness for the early hermits in
> Egypt and the later hermits in the British Isles.
>
> *sigh* Of course, I always feel like I'm preaching to the choir when an
> historical argument pops up and you're involved....
I have to disagree with you on this one, though... the isolated 'hermits' of
Egypt and Ireland are a merry piece of Whig-Protestant wishful thinking -
while there was always an eremetic 'edge' to the ultramontane Church, the
people who preserved the texts in question, in Ireland, Britain, France,
Germany, Spain, Italy, and Byzantium, were serious scholars with
international horizons and a reverence for the Church of Rome...
Also, I've never found any evidence for the suppression of any text,
institutionalised or individual, prior to the rise of the Lollards in the
C14th... that's another Whig-Protestant viral meme... nor have I as much
sympathy for the fanaticism of the Albagensians or the ideas of other High
Medieval heritics as some people... IMHO, although there was a massive
problem with corruption in high places, anticlerical heresy played a more
damaging role in undermining the middle ground between c. 1250 and 1550...
> And as for Lord Acton, we are in his debt. And he was right, near
> absolute power nearly corrupted the Church absolutely.
Ouch!-)
I'd at least have to argue that the Church isn't just ex cathedra
statements, the Congregation for the Propigation of the Faith (or whatever
it's called) and formal dogma... but then, as the NRG's resident Scottish
Episcopalian, I'm bound to have odd ideas on this for several reasons... you
really want to get into theology and ecclesiology here?
The alternative, however, is still Philip the Fair...
> John
Pol'
Bill Anderson
Lefty Skywalker wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, policrat' wrote:
>
> > You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
>
> I tried, really I did, especailly since I've enjoyed his other works so
> much. But it started out annyoing, and then got strange, and then got
> stupid, and I put it down.
>
Have any of you read William Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire?" It is
one of the few books I've ever read about all this that was huge fun from
beginning to end. Europeans so poor they went about naked because they had
no clothes. People who lived their entire short lives never knowing what
town lay beyond that hill over there. Martin Luther farting to scare the
demons away. It was most entertaining. Too bad it was so short.
Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" of course is another entertaining book
about the middle ages. No way I was going to put that one down. But it's
the only book by Eco I've ever read. Still, having enjoyed it so much, my
guess is that the best of the "New Jedi Order" is worse than anything by
Eco.
--
Bill Anderson
I am Jade's Canary
policrat'
on board!
>
>
> Lefty Skywalker wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, policrat' wrote:
>>
>>> You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
>>
>> I tried, really I did, especailly since I've enjoyed his other works so
>> much. But it started out annyoing, and then got strange, and then got
>> stupid, and I put it down.
>
> Have any of you read William Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire?" It is
> one of the few books I've ever read about all this that was huge fun from
> beginning to end. Europeans so poor they went about naked because they had
> no clothes.
Given the cultural abhorrence of nudity and the sheer practicality of the
climate, I suspect that the people in question actually went around
bare-legged and that sort of thing...
> People who lived their entire short lives never knowing what
> town lay beyond that hill over there.
I've always found that there's a lack of evidence for that, too...
> Martin Luther farting to scare the demons away.
That was the C16th. Nasty period. Progress and all that...
> It was most entertaining. Too bad it was so short.
> Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" of course is another entertaining book
> about the middle ages. No way I was going to put that one down. But it's
> the only book by Eco I've ever read. Still, having enjoyed it so much, my
> guess is that the best of the "New Jedi Order" is worse than anything by
> Eco.
You've not read _The Island of the Day Before_, have you?-)
> Bill Anderson
Pol'
Anne
As our resident Scot and a history wonk... Have you ever read the Dorothy
Dunnett historical novels about Francis Crawford of Lymond? (set in the
16th century) They have names that are allusions to chess: Game of Kings,
Pawn in Frankincense, Queen's Play, etc.
Just curious. :-)
- Anne
Lefty Skywalker
> Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" of course is another entertaining book
> about the middle ages. No way I was going to put that one down. But it's
> the only book by Eco I've ever read...
"Foucalt's Pendulum" is recommended. Basic plot outline is that a guy
researching ancient secret societies and etc. starts making up connections
between them for fun... suddenly all the modern members of said secret
societies emerge from hiding slapping their foreheads and saying, "So
*that's* what we've been up to!"
policrat'
Thirteenth-century, IIRC... and his context still seems ill-understood to me
- what, for instance, is his relationship to contemporary Byzantine
figurative art?
> Arnolfo di Cambio--Architecture
Who?! The name rings a bell (Pisa cathedral?!) but IMHO, there wasn't any
*real* 'renaissance' in architecture before Brunelleschi and Alberti in the
C15th...
> Should I list some of the dispensations and the artists within??
>
> We suffer from different perspectives. Mine is purely an art historical
> POV. Chritianization, Orientalization and barbarism during the middle ages
> eclipsed classical culture. The Carolingian Empire sought to restore some
> of what was lost, but they only managed to copy classical text.
No. People either don't know or don't understand the rest of it... in terms
of scholarship (textual criticism and reconstructing poetic metres, the
rediscovery of Greek), architecture (the palace complexes and/or monasteries
at Aachen, Ingelheim, Magdeburg, Lorsch, San Vincento al Volturno,
Germigny-des-Pres etc.) literature (Einhardt's _Vita Karoli Imperii_, for
instance, or Alcuin's letters and poems - or *any* of the major collections
of letters or poems of the period), painting, (Carolingian book-painting
does depend heavily on Antique models, but it does funky things with them,
and the period saw, IIRC, the essentiall development of pen-and-ink as a
serious medium, while San Vincento has some splendid painted tomb-portraits
of C8th and C9th abbots) and philosophy (John Scotus Eriugena) there was a
very real renaissance, in terms of rediscovering, being inspired by, and
making use of the classical past - very much based at the imperial court,
perhaps, but involving men from all over Europe...
True, most of the major early medieval sculpture, ivory and mosaic I can
think of isn't techincally 'Carolingian' - there are some really striking
life-sized Lombard statues, though, not to mention the
small-but-perfectly-formed equestrian bronze of Charlemagne and the pure
genius of the original imperial _solidus_ of c. 800 - it has the look and
feel of a Roman coin, and the portrait of Charlemagne and the inscription
are a seminal essay in what this sort of thing should look like for the
ages, but if you look closely, the die has been cut with a very subtle,
almost plastic, use of typically angular, almost vorticist, early medieval
shapes... and there are important late C8th/C9th mosaics at Aachen and
Germigny-des-Pres...
Maybe it's obscure or out-of-fashion these days, but it can stand on its own
as a renaissance, IMHO...
> And when there was nothing to copy, there was no invention--artistically.
Hmm. There's a remarkably eccentric tenth-century palazzo in Rome that
springs to mind for sheer inventiveness. You also have to bear in mind with
a lot of this stuff that the subtleties - literary references in buildings
and multimedia in-jokes - have often been lost...
And then there's Gothic... the name of which, ironically, is an inaccurate
Renaissance pejorative... but which is in itself artistically inventive,
technically accomplished, and generally incredible... and there's *oodles*
of it!
> There were other movements as well, the proto-humanists, Ottonian,
> anglo-saxon, etc. each contributed but they too ended with no great
> contribution, or course altering attribute. The reason the middle-ages
> suffered was because the Christianization of Europe allowed Greek art to be
> incorporated into society, but the meanings of the works were Christianized,
> the Greek gods and goddesses were made to pay homage or tribute to the saints
> or God.
Um... I think you're seriously denigrating the Medieval mindset there... it
was more that cultural and iconographic motifs were easily and happily
appropriated - as the Romans had appropriated them from the Greeks and the
Renaissance was later to reappropriate them to the exclusion of the middle
ages... and it doesn't apply at all to something like _Carmina Burana_...
As to the basic art-historical thing, IMHO, the debasement of most of the
'great' works of classical antiquity to stylized types had occurred already
by the C1st AD... it's just that there seems to be a lot more snobbery about
the 'unique' in Classical or Renaissance art than there is in Medieval...
> So, much knowledge was lost do to this worldview, and this is why those of the
> Renaissance sought to restore what was lost as well as change the course of
> the "Dark Ages".
No. The reason things were lost was, IMHO, largely the result of sheer
entropy... the reason anything survived at all was that it was *always*
possible to be both cultured and Christian...
You could have fooled me!
Though I would argue that there was a fundamental difference between what
the Italians were doing (classical revival) and what was happening beyond
the Alps (new techniques and a new realism, and an *abandonment* of medieval
ideas of _Romanitas_ as the guiding light of civilization)...
>> But... well, to be brief, the Middle Ages were _full_ of people inspired
>> by the literature, art, architecture, politics, morality, philosophy and law
>> of Classical antiquity - imitating it and innovating on the basis of their
>> knowledge of it... everywhere in Europe... it is to them that we owe the
>> great cathedrals, the nation-state, statute law, Dante's _Divina Commedia_
>> and _Monarchia_, the romances of Chretien de Troyes, and probably the
>> portrait... and lots more things that *should* be better known than they
>> are, but without which, and without all the manuscripts they read and
>> copied, the Renaissance would have had nothing to go on except a very few
>> overgrown ruins... above all, the idea that the classical past was
>> *important* was something inherited from the Middle Ages...
>>
>> And can Leonardo or Michaelangelo really be said to owe anything to
>> Greece...?
>
> I think they owe everything to Greece. That is the whole point of the
> Renaissance, they sought to rebirth Classical Antiquity, they copied it and
> innovated from it. Without the Greeks, there never would have been a
> Renaissance.
Ultimately, maybe, but there are a lot of intermediate influences - it was a
Roman attitude to Greece preserved through the Middle Ages that the
Renaissance inherited; and did Leonardo and Michaelangelo owe anything
*directly* to Greece, or even concepts of 'Greek revival', rather than to
their Renaissance forebears?
>> But don't even get me started on Napoleon =)
>
> Please do.
It would take a *long* time...
>> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of usunet
>> posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the Google
>> cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
>>
>> Pol'
>
> *pounce*
> ANNOYING MAN WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU!!
> *pounce*
> Annoying.
> Annoying.
> Annoying.*pounce*
> *pounce*
> Annoying.
> Annoying.
>
> Long live ANNOYING MAN!!!!!
> *pounce*
> *pounce*
Troll...
> -Muuurgh
Pol'
policrat'
I haven't, I'm afraid... _King Hereafter_ kinda makes it... um, difficult...
> - Anne
Pol'
policrat'
brought on board!
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Bill Anderson wrote:
>
>> Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" of course is another entertaining book
>> about the middle ages. No way I was going to put that one down. But it's
>> the only book by Eco I've ever read...
>
> "Foucalt's Pendulum" is recommended. Basic plot outline is that a guy
> researching ancient secret societies and etc. starts making up connections
> between them for fun... suddenly all the modern members of said secret
> societies emerge from hiding slapping their foreheads and saying, "So
> *that's* what we've been up to!"
You went and spoiled it!
> Daniel O. Miller
Pol'
John Donchig
OK, I'm lost, which period are you talking about here?
> and (juding by tree-ring analysis) a lot of the development of
> the plough and growth in farming through the clearing of waste... as to the
> clock, it's a difficult question, but the water-clock was known from the
> Hellenistic period, and I wouldn't have put it past the Byzantines or the
> 'Sabians' of Carrhae (= Plato's Academy, I kid you not) to have developed
> the basic mechanical clock by 800 - though the mainspring only came about in
> the C16th...
>
> =)
And we wonder why people throw the word "pedant" around like it's a curse.
>>John
>
>
> You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
Nope. Rereading a couple of Perez-Reverte, just started _Michaelangelo
and the Pope's Ceiling_, and just finished _What If....? Part 2_. Is
_Baudolino_ good?
John
John Donchig
Lefty Skywalker wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Bill Anderson wrote:
>
>
>>Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" of course is another entertaining book
>>about the middle ages. No way I was going to put that one down. But it's
>>the only book by Eco I've ever read...
>
>
> "Foucalt's Pendulum" is recommended. Basic plot outline is that a guy
> researching ancient secret societies and etc. starts making up connections
> between them for fun... suddenly all the modern members of said secret
> societies emerge from hiding slapping their foreheads and saying, "So
> *that's* what we've been up to!"
You know, I tried reading this one but couldn't get past page fifty. Of
course, that was even before I started college. Think I'd enjoy it more
now?
John
John Donchig
>>Should I list some of the dispensations and the artists within??
>>
>>We suffer from different perspectives. Mine is purely an art historical
>>POV. Chritianization, Orientalization and barbarism during the middle ages
>>eclipsed classical culture. The Carolingian Empire sought to restore some
>>of what was lost, but they only managed to copy classical text.
>
>
> No. People either don't know or don't understand the rest of it... in terms
> of scholarship (textual criticism and reconstructing poetic metres, the
> rediscovery of Greek), architecture (the palace complexes and/or monasteries
> at Aachen, Ingelheim, Magdeburg, Lorsch, San Vincento al Volturno,
> Germigny-des-Pres etc.) literature (Einhardt's _Vita Karoli Imperii_,
*cough*PEDANT*cough* =P
Just haaaaad to write it in Latin.
Hey, give you a cookie if you can tell me what passage from Einhardt is
the earliest known analogue to the Cinderella tale.
<snip>
He's not kidding Muuurgh, don't get him started.
John
John Donchig
I can get behind the serious scholars part---but I don't buy the
reverence for the CoR part. I just don't; maybe it's because I have a
background studying heresy and heterodoxy (albeit one that's two years
stale), but I tend to remember a lot more about the sects and
individuals who were no friends of Rome than vice versa.
> Also, I've never found any evidence for the suppression of any text,
> institutionalised or individual, prior to the rise of the Lollards in the
> C14th...
This is why I wish I weren't two years stale in my study--because I just
*know* I disagree with you about this, but I can't for the life of me
remember enough specifics to make an argument, and I don't really have
the time to go digging through my old textbooks.
> that's another Whig-Protestant viral meme... nor have I as much
> sympathy for the fanaticism of the Albagensians or the ideas of other High
> Medieval heritics as some people...
Oh, well, then, there you go--I do (see above). I was always rather
partial to the Donatists myself, though they're way too early to be
relevant here.
> IMHO, although there was a massive
> problem with corruption in high places, anticlerical heresy played a more
> damaging role in undermining the middle ground between c. 1250 and 1550...
Rather than ask you to clarify I'll just as for a recommendation for a
book on this one.
>>And as for Lord Acton, we are in his debt. And he was right, near
>>absolute power nearly corrupted the Church absolutely.
>
>
> Ouch!-)
So I have an axe to grind =P
That's what happens when you take a disappointed Catholic, make him a
Latin-speaking, Greek-reading History/Religion major--lots of repressed
anger comes out when he looks behind the curtain and sees the Wizard....
> I'd at least have to argue that the Church isn't just ex cathedra
> statements, the Congregation for the Propigation of the Faith (or whatever
> it's called) and formal dogma... but then, as the NRG's resident Scottish
> Episcopalian, I'm bound to have odd ideas on this for several reasons... you
> really want to get into theology and ecclesiology here?
Depends. You'll trounce me in Renaissance/Reformation, but I could take
you on 1st-2nd c. Christianity =)
> The alternative, however, is still Philip the Fair...
Long live Jacques de Molay's prophetic tongue.
John
John Donchig
Oooh! She likes chess and books. Should we let her know about that one
with the art chick and the gay antiquities dealer and the taciturn chess
master and coke fiend art broker....?
John
Anne
> I haven't, I'm afraid... _King Hereafter_ kinda makes it... um, difficult...
IMHO the Lymond series are a masterpiece, but Dunnett hasn't written
anything else worthwhile.
- A.
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of usunet
> posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the Google
> cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
Indeed. Annoying Man will be forgotten, and this period of RASSM history
will be known for the brilliant overarching victory of Steve Tilson...
ushering in the time known as the Pax Tilsonica...
Steve Tilson
--
The avalanche has begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
Lefty Skywalker
Depends... are you smarter now?
John Donchig
Lefty Skywalker wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, John Donchig wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Lefty Skywalker wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Bill Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" of course is another entertaining book
>>>>about the middle ages. No way I was going to put that one down. But it's
>>>>the only book by Eco I've ever read...
>>>
>>>
>>>"Foucalt's Pendulum" is recommended. Basic plot outline is that a guy
>>>researching ancient secret societies and etc. starts making up connections
>>>between them for fun... suddenly all the modern members of said secret
>>>societies emerge from hiding slapping their foreheads and saying, "So
>>>*that's* what we've been up to!"
>>
>>You know, I tried reading this one but couldn't get past page fifty. Of
>>course, that was even before I started college. Think I'd enjoy it more
>>now?
>
>
> Depends... are you smarter now?
No. More educated though, more mature, and more patient. Those good
enough?
John
Lefty Skywalker
"Patient" will help you get through it and "more educated" will help it
make sense. So, yes.
policrat'
on board!
>
>>> Should I list some of the dispensations and the artists within??
>>>
>>> We suffer from different perspectives. Mine is purely an art historical
>>> POV. Chritianization, Orientalization and barbarism during the middle ages
>>> eclipsed classical culture. The Carolingian Empire sought to restore some
>>> of what was lost, but they only managed to copy classical text.
>>
>>
>> No. People either don't know or don't understand the rest of it... in terms
>> of scholarship (textual criticism and reconstructing poetic metres, the
>> rediscovery of Greek), architecture (the palace complexes and/or monasteries
>> at Aachen, Ingelheim, Magdeburg, Lorsch, San Vincento al Volturno,
>> Germigny-des-Pres etc.) literature (Einhardt's _Vita Karoli Imperii_,
>
>
> *cough*PEDANT*cough* =P
>
> Just haaaaad to write it in Latin.
Actually, it never struck me to write it in any other language - pedantry
would've been going to Google to check I'd got the name quite right...
> Hey, give you a cookie if you can tell me what passage from Einhardt is
> the earliest known analogue to the Cinderella tale.
Not a clue...
Smartass =)
Ouch. But aye...
=7
> John
Pol'
policrat'
I think there's a difference between disagreeing with current orthodoxy and
venerating the idea of Rome... it *was* (and *is*) possible to do both...
and a lot of Early Medieval 'heresy' was about (a.) creating a political
power-block in opposition to the Church of Rome or (b.) venerating older
liturgies - often of genuinely 'Roman' origin - which the agents of
centralising orthodoxy didn't recognize as such and handled tactlessly... I
don't think either *really* counts as heresy...
And there's always a temptation to define 'the Church' as a Bad Thing (tm)
in terms of those specific technical issues in the dogma of any given moment
which people who warm the cockles of liberal hearts happened to disagree
with... especially when politics and ideology tend to influence
historiographical POVs...
E.A. Thompson's _The Goths in Spain_ springs to mind...
I'm basing my POV on my own politics and ideology here, of course - but I'll
attempt to defend myself by claiming that I'm trying to find a pluralist
working definition that approximates the vague attitudes of the general lave
of people...
>> Also, I've never found any evidence for the suppression of any text,
>> institutionalised or individual, prior to the rise of the Lollards in the
>> C14th...
>
> This is why I wish I weren't two years stale in my study--because I just
> *know* I disagree with you about this, but I can't for the life of me
> remember enough specifics to make an argument, and I don't really have
> the time to go digging through my old textbooks.
I guess there may be some C13th stuff about Averroes and Aristotle,
actually... and there's obviously the passive decision involved in deciding
what to copy, but I can't honestly think of *any* book-burning... please
correct me if (as seems likely) I'm wrong...
Something about Marsillius of Padua's _Defensor Pacis_ springs to mind...
>> that's another Whig-Protestant viral meme... nor have I as much
>> sympathy for the fanaticism of the Albagensians or the ideas of other High
>> Medieval heritics as some people...
>
> Oh, well, then, there you go--I do (see above). I was always rather
> partial to the Donatists myself, though they're way too early to be
> relevant here.
Donatists? The people who _opposed_ the readmission into the Church of
people who lost their nerve when faced with a long, slow, painful death -
'when faced with the strength which strikes fear into even the
stout-hearted'?! Or do they just earn your sympathy once they're a
persecuted minority?
:)
>> IMHO, although there was a massive
>> problem with corruption in high places, anticlerical heresy played a more
>> damaging role in undermining the middle ground between c. 1250 and 1550...
>
> Rather than ask you to clarify I'll just as for a recommendation for a
> book on this one.
Well, I'll have to clarify... this is just a personal opinion based on a
reaction to the daft anticlerical historiographical prejudice in things like
_The Return of Martin Guerre_ and _The Cheese and the Worms_ or anything by
Elton on the Tudor State... basically, most medieval anticlerical movements
aren't nice liberal fondue-parties, they're nasty little
October-Revolutions-in-waiting... then again, so are most nice liberal
fondue-parties regardless of date...
I'm not condoning corrupt power - just got an odd sort of idealism about
dualism being inimical to finding the right answer...
You may have noticed this in my NRG threads...
Then again, sensible people like Niccolo Machiavelli tended to be so bloody
*obscure* in the first place that maybe it's no wonder...
>>> And as for Lord Acton, we are in his debt. And he was right, near
>>> absolute power nearly corrupted the Church absolutely.
>>
>>
>> Ouch!-)
>
> So I have an axe to grind =P
>
> That's what happens when you take a disappointed Catholic, make him a
> Latin-speaking, Greek-reading History/Religion major--lots of repressed
> anger comes out when he looks behind the curtain and sees the Wizard....
How'd I guess?
But shouldn't you be looking *at* the curtain (or iconostasis) anyway, even
if you *are* the wizard...
>> I'd at least have to argue that the Church isn't just ex cathedra
>> statements, the Congregation for the Propigation of the Faith (or whatever
>> it's called) and formal dogma... but then, as the NRG's resident Scottish
>> Episcopalian, I'm bound to have odd ideas on this for several reasons... you
>> really want to get into theology and ecclesiology here?
>
>
> Depends. You'll trounce me in Renaissance/Reformation, but I could take
> you on 1st-2nd c. Christianity =)
Hmm... I'll give you the C2nd... and I don't feel I really want to *debate*
the C1st... though that sounds like a cop-out, which it isn't... I hope...
>> The alternative, however, is still Philip the Fair...
>
> Long live Jacques de Molay's prophetic tongue.
I think I've recommended _The Last of the Templars_ by William Watson
before...
Not to mention arguments about sovereignty and killing Popes... no matter
what his character, it shows a certain... bastardliness, I guess... to just
send some thugs to kick the crap out of the man... though even they were
still human...
And the stramash between Pope and King meant that any *reasonable* argument
(James of Viterbo, IIRC - and definately Machiavelli's _Monarchia_) got
drowned out...
That, and Baldred Bisset has always been something of a personal hero to
me...
btw, do you kou know a reference for the claim (in _Foucault's Pendulum_,
IIRC) that someone was supposed to have jumped up on the scaffold after
Louis XVI got guillotined, and shouted "Jacques de Molay! You are avenged!"?
> John
Pol'
policrat'
The "Dark Ages"...
>> and (juding by tree-ring analysis) a lot of the development of
>> the plough and growth in farming through the clearing of waste... as to the
>> clock, it's a difficult question, but the water-clock was known from the
>> Hellenistic period, and I wouldn't have put it past the Byzantines or the
>> 'Sabians' of Carrhae (= Plato's Academy, I kid you not) to have developed
>> the basic mechanical clock by 800 - though the mainspring only came about in
>> the C16th...
>>
>> =)
>
> And we wonder why people throw the word "pedant" around like it's a curse.
You use that word a lot. I do not think it means what you think it means.
But sorry, I guess I just inferred that you wanted my E0.02...
>>> John
>>
>> You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
>
> Nope. Rereading a couple of Perez-Reverte,
Good man! You found that film of _The Flanders Panel_ yet?
> just started _Michaelangelo and the Pope's Ceiling_,
The Agony and the Ecstasy!
> and just finished _What If....? Part 2_.
Not read, I'm afraid... counterfactualled out on my own games and _Virtual
History_...
> Is _Baudolino_ good?
I enjoyed it... which isn't a straightforward recommendation. Not exactly
fireworks in the writing, but some... interesting... stuff... not so much
playing with the Middle Ages as playing with Medievalism, this time... and a
decidedly odd (but IMHO forgiveable) literary riff on something in the _Name
of the Rose_... I reckon you might have fun with it...
One other thing I'll recommend (with reservations) is _The Dream of Scipio_
by Ian Pears... though I'd recommend _An Instance of the Fingerpost_ more
wholeheartedly...
> John
Pol'
policrat'
on board!
Hey, why not?
And is there an alt.fan.perez-reverte? And if not, why not?
> John
Pol'
policrat'
>> I haven't, I'm afraid... _King Hereafter_ kinda makes it... um, difficult...
>
> IMHO the Lymond series are a masterpiece, but Dunnett hasn't written
> anything else worthwhile.
It's the 'else' that makes it difficult for me... people tar it all with the
same brush...
> - A.
Pol'
policrat'
when I was brought on board!
> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of usunet
>> posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the Google
>> cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
>
> Indeed. Annoying Man will be forgotten, and this period of RASSM history
> will be known for the brilliant overarching victory of Steve Tilson...
> ushering in the time known as the Pax Tilsonica...
Where's that Sith War post you were working on, anyway?
> Steve Tilson
Pol'
Anne
> > anything else worthwhile.
>
> It's the 'else' that makes it difficult for me... people tar it all with the
> same brush...
Pooh.
Don't pay any attention to those people.
- Anne
Muuurgh
Its debatable. He kinda makerked the adolescent stange of the Renaissance
according to some.
>
> > Arnolfo di Cambio--Architecture
>
> Who?! The name rings a bell (Pisa cathedral?!) but IMHO, there wasn't any
> *real* 'renaissance' in architecture before Brunelleschi and Alberti in
the
> C15th...
Again, he was part of this 'adolescence' stage as panofsy and IIRC--Vasari
stated. Attributed: Nave of Santa Croce and i think he started the Florence
Cathedral.
This is a complex subject. One that I am incapable of answering, have you
read any Panofsky? It would be interesting for you to see some of this from
his perspective. He addresses most of this, on some level or other, in
'Renaissance and Renascences in Western Art'. At this point I could only
look over my notes and point out some of what I gleamed.. but who's
interested in that?
I agree with this.
>
> > So, much knowledge was lost do to this worldview, and this is why those
of the
> > Renaissance sought to restore what was lost as well as change the course
of
> > the "Dark Ages".
>
> No. The reason things were lost was, IMHO, largely the result of sheer
> entropy... the reason anything survived at all was that it was *always*
> possible to be both cultured and Christian...
>
Hmmm.. I don't know if I fully agree with that. There was always, and still
is the pressure to avoid the secular. But yes, it is 'possible'.
I'm sorry, I'm getting tied... not thinking....
..correctly..
If you wanna discuss the Cyclades, I may be willing. I am preparing for my
trip to Paros, Greece to study archeology and to work on my thesis. I need
all the help I can get learning Greek and Cycladic history.
Are you sure Rome didn't just plunder Athens?
> >> But don't even get me started on Napoleon =)
> >
> > Please do.
>
> It would take a *long* time...
>
> >> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of
usunet
> >> posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the Google
> >> cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
> >>
> >> Pol'
> >
> > *pounce*
> > ANNOYING MAN WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU!!
> > *pounce*
> > Annoying.
> > Annoying.
> > Annoying.*pounce*
> > *pounce*
> > Annoying.
> > Annoying.
> >
> > Long live ANNOYING MAN!!!!!
> > *pounce*
> > *pounce*
>
> Troll...
>
*pounce*
> > -Muuurgh
>
> Pol'
>
-Muuurgh
John Donchig
policrat' wrote:
> John Donchig! I should have recognized your foul stench when I was brought
> on board!
>
>
>>>>Should I list some of the dispensations and the artists within??
>>>>
>>>>We suffer from different perspectives. Mine is purely an art historical
>>>>POV. Chritianization, Orientalization and barbarism during the middle ages
>>>>eclipsed classical culture. The Carolingian Empire sought to restore some
>>>>of what was lost, but they only managed to copy classical text.
>>>
>>>
>>>No. People either don't know or don't understand the rest of it... in terms
>>>of scholarship (textual criticism and reconstructing poetic metres, the
>>>rediscovery of Greek), architecture (the palace complexes and/or monasteries
>>>at Aachen, Ingelheim, Magdeburg, Lorsch, San Vincento al Volturno,
>>>Germigny-des-Pres etc.) literature (Einhardt's _Vita Karoli Imperii_,
>>
>>
>>*cough*PEDANT*cough* =P
>>
>>Just haaaaad to write it in Latin.
>
>
> Actually, it never struck me to write it in any other language - pedantry
> would've been going to Google to check I'd got the name quite right...
>
>
>>Hey, give you a cookie if you can tell me what passage from Einhardt is
>>the earliest known analogue to the Cinderella tale.
>
>
> Not a clue...
>
> Smartass =)
I gotta get my shots in too. Do you recall a little passage with a
young lady and an older lady that goes something like this:
"Saaaaaay......wanna take a look in that big heavy trunk for me? Here,
I'll just hold open the lid for you while you're in there.....no no, I
think it's farther toward the bottom....stick your head in juuuuuuust a
bit further....*SLAM*!
Heh.
John
Rainbow Heron
<policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Steve...@rightbehindyou.com! I should have recognized your foul stench
>when I was brought on board!
>
>> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of usunet
>>> posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the Google
>>> cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
So sad....so sad....
Someone needs to resurrect the Gungan Mafia. And I miss those
Wookies...
>> Indeed. Annoying Man will be forgotten, and this period of RASSM history
>> will be known for the brilliant overarching victory of Steve Tilson...
>> ushering in the time known as the Pax Tilsonica...
that sounds like a good idea...for a Sith War! :-)
>Where's that Sith War post you were working on, anyway?
Yeah dude, where IS it?!
The Archivist is waiting!
-Rainbow Heron
(sig is getting impatient)
Somebody like, *do* something!!!
==========================================
http://web.ftc-i.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
I'm gonna kick their asses! And then I'm gonna kick their butts!
And when I'm done kicking their donkeys and cigarettes,
I'm gonna kick THEM!
policrat'
So who's keeping score? jmf?
> Do you recall a little passage with a
> young lady and an older lady that goes something like this:
>
> "Saaaaaay......wanna take a look in that big heavy trunk for me? Here,
> I'll just hold open the lid for you while you're in there.....no no, I
> think it's farther toward the bottom....stick your head in juuuuuuust a
> bit further....*SLAM*!
[blank look - sorry]
That's one to John, btw, Jill-Marie...
We're agreeing again...
> John
Pol'
policrat'
Aye... I see where you're coming from... it's just that when you start doing
that sort of thing, it seems possible to take the 'Renaissance' back to c.
1250, and then it just becomes an alternative road out of Romanesque,
running almost parallel to Gothic, and all tied up in the tussle about who
ran Italy...
I suspect I may need to read some serious theory on the topic, though...
>>> Arnolfo di Cambio--Architecture
>>
>> Who?! The name rings a bell (Pisa cathedral?!) but IMHO, there wasn't any
>> *real* 'renaissance' in architecture before Brunelleschi and Alberti in
>> the C15th...
>
> Again, he was part of this 'adolescence' stage as panofsy and IIRC--Vasari
> stated. Attributed: Nave of Santa Croce and i think he started the Florence
> Cathedral.
Aye - but again, I'm having a hard time detaching this from the pre-existing
context of Italian (or, if you want domes on your cathedrals, Mediterranean)
Romanesque...
>>> Should I list some of the dispensations and the artists within??
>>>
>>> We suffer from different perspectives. Mine is purely an art historical
>>> POV. Chritianization, Orientalization and barbarism during the middle
>>> ages eclipsed classical culture. The Carolingian Empire sought to restore
>>> some of what was lost, but they only managed to copy classical text.
>>
>> No. People either don't know or don't understand the rest of it... in
>> terms of scholarship (textual criticism and reconstructing poetic metres, the
>> rediscovery of Greek), architecture (the palace complexes and/or
>> monasteries at Aachen, Ingelheim, Magdeburg, Lorsch, San Vincento al
>> Volturno, Germigny-des-Pres etc.) literature (Einhardt's _Vita Karoli
>> Imperii_, for instance, or Alcuin's letters and poems - or *any* of the major
>> collections of letters or poems of the period), painting, (Carolingian
>> book-painting does depend heavily on Antique models, but it does funky things
>> with them, and the period saw, IIRC, the essentiall development of
>> pen-and-ink as a serious medium, while San Vincento has some splendid painted
>> tomb-portraits of C8th and C9th abbots) and philosophy (John Scotus Eriugena)
>> there was a very real renaissance, in terms of rediscovering, being inspired
>> by, and making use of the classical past - very much based at the imperial
>> court, perhaps, but involving men from all over Europe...
>
> This is a complex subject. One that I am incapable of answering, have you
> read any Panofsky?
I *think* so, which shows how long it's been...
> It would be interesting for you to see some of this from
> his perspective. He addresses most of this, on some level or other, in
> 'Renaissance and Renascences in Western Art'. At this point I could only
> look over my notes and point out some of what I gleamed.. but who's
> interested in that?
Aye... I need to check...
Yay!
>>> So, much knowledge was lost do to this worldview, and this is why those
>>> of the Renaissance sought to restore what was lost as well as change the
>>> course of the "Dark Ages".
>>
>> No. The reason things were lost was, IMHO, largely the result of sheer
>> entropy... the reason anything survived at all was that it was *always*
>> possible to be both cultured and Christian...
>
> Hmmm.. I don't know if I fully agree with that. There was always, and still
> is the pressure to avoid the secular. But yes, it is 'possible'.
> I'm sorry, I'm getting tied... not thinking....
> ..correctly..
That's fine... I'm not really awake enough to trawl through my opinions, but
I *do* think the 'pressure' has been overrated... the Romans weren't
'secular' either in that sense - that's just people looking for a tradition
to appeal to in defining themselves against the Middle Ages as they see them
- the Romans - and the Greeks! - had their own ideologies, which informed
Christians as well...
But as to the Middle Ages, in the times and places where there's the least
obviously 'secular' Latin literature or 'secular' Classically-inspired art,
I don't think it's because they Church were putting effective pressure on
anyone - they're the only people keeping the idea of Rome alive, taking it
forwards, even spreading it to the barbarians... the collapse of the culture
of Antiquity that you'd probably call 'secular' represents a really complex
process that my own views on are fairly odd... but there was 'secular'
culture afterwards - it was just *vernacular*...
I will give you, however, that there is a *tension*... Jerome was never able
to articulate an explicit solution to the problem that being a Christian and
a Ciceronian seemed mutually exclusive... but at the same time, people never
gave up looking...
The Cyclades, those are the ones at the south of the Aegean, north of Crete?
Lucky sod.
Hmm... lots of interesting sites, IIRC, but not many Classical writers I can
think of who treat them as anything other than mythic locations, so somewhat
outside my limited knowledge... Delos is the only one I can name off-hand,
and aside from myths, a hazy awareness that it was a centre of the
slave-trade and an unreliably eccentric theory on the significance of the
Delian League, I really don't know how much I can help you on anything
specifically Cycladid before the Middle Byzantine period...
More general Greek history, though, aye...
Pretty much, yes. I mean, sure, they were *inspired* in a lot of things by
the Greeks - in figurative sculpture and painting they were almost always
derivative, and in terms of the formal language of architecture, it was hard
to top what had already been done - but in everything else, IMHO, their
association with Greece was very much in a part-of-a-wider-world sort of
way... they were influenced, and took on the ideas...
I should probably admit I'm probably prejudiced, though...
>>>> But don't even get me started on Napoleon =)
>>>
>>> Please do.
>>
>> It would take a *long* time...
>>
>>>> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of
>>>> usunet posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the
>>>> Google cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven Wookies...
>>>>
>>>> Pol'
>>>
>>> *pounce*
>>> ANNOYING MAN WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU!!
>>> *pounce*
>>> Annoying.
>>> Annoying.
>>> Annoying.*pounce*
>>> *pounce*
>>> Annoying.
>>> Annoying.
>>>
>>> Long live ANNOYING MAN!!!!!
>>> *pounce*
>>> *pounce*
>>
>> Troll...
>
> *pounce*
Hah!
>>> -Muuurgh
>>
>> Pol'
>>
> -Muuurgh
Pol'
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
Um... Sith War? What Sith War? This is the Pax Tilsonica!
> > Steve Tilson
>
> Pol'
Steve Tilson
- actually, if I could come up with something halfway decent, I'd post it
policrat'
when I was brought on board!
> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Steve...@rightbehindyou.com! I should have recognized your foul stench
>> when I was brought on board!
>>
>>> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of
>>>> usunet posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in the
>>>> Google cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven
>>>> Wookies...
>>>
>>> Indeed. Annoying Man will be forgotten, and this period of RASSM
>>> history will be known for the brilliant overarching victory of Steve
>>> Tilson... ushering in the time known as the Pax Tilsonica...
>>
>> Where's that Sith War post you were working on, anyway?
>
> Um... Sith War? What Sith War? This is the Pax Tilsonica!
Well, _impose_ it!
>>> Steve Tilson
>>
>> Pol'
>
> Steve Tilson
> - actually, if I could come up with something halfway decent, I'd post it
You want a beta-reader?
OTOH, if you want a straightforward beta, you need to talk to Centauri...
Pol'
Steve...@rightbehindyou.com
> Steve...@rightbehindyou.com! I should have recognized your foul stench
> when I was brought on board!
>
> > policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Steve...@rightbehindyou.com! I should have recognized your foul
> >> stench when I was brought on board!
> >>
> >>> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of
> >>>> usunet posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in
> >>>> the Google cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven
> >>>> Wookies...
> >>>
> >>> Indeed. Annoying Man will be forgotten, and this period of RASSM
> >>> history will be known for the brilliant overarching victory of Steve
> >>> Tilson... ushering in the time known as the Pax Tilsonica...
> >>
> >> Where's that Sith War post you were working on, anyway?
> >
> > Um... Sith War? What Sith War? This is the Pax Tilsonica!
>
> Well, _impose_ it!
It's such an imposition to impose it.
> >>> Steve Tilson
> >>
> >> Pol'
> >
> > Steve Tilson
> > - actually, if I could come up with something halfway decent, I'd post
> > it
>
> You want a beta-reader?
I never adopted beta. My first was a VHS. Now I use nothing but DVD.
> OTOH, if you want a straightforward beta, you need to talk to Centauri...
I wonder... if I were called away to fight in someone else's interstellar
war, and had to leave all my family and friends behind and engage in combat
while horribly outnumbered, with my only companion a gung-ho iguana who
tells me to relax ... would anyone notice?
> Pol'
Steve Tilson
policrat'
when I was brought on board!
> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Steve...@rightbehindyou.com! I should have recognized your foul stench
>> when I was brought on board!
>>
>>> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Steve...@rightbehindyou.com! I should have recognized your foul
>>>> stench when I was brought on board!
>>>>
>>>>> policrat' <policr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> So therefore, unless you can create a valid Muurghist tradition of
>>>>>> usunet posting, Annoying Man is destined to become a mere ghost in
>>>>>> the Google cache, much like Elvis, the Gungan Mafia or the Shaven
>>>>>> Wookies...
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed. Annoying Man will be forgotten, and this period of RASSM
>>>>> history will be known for the brilliant overarching victory of Steve
>>>>> Tilson... ushering in the time known as the Pax Tilsonica...
>>>>
>>>> Where's that Sith War post you were working on, anyway?
>>>
>>> Um... Sith War? What Sith War? This is the Pax Tilsonica!
>>
>> Well, _impose_ it!
>
> It's such an imposition to impose it.
Well, do it, or the NRG will post... stuff...
>>>>> Steve Tilson
>>>>
>>>> Pol'
>>>
>>> Steve Tilson
>>> - actually, if I could come up with something halfway decent, I'd post
>>> it
>>
>> You want a beta-reader?
>
> I never adopted beta. My first was a VHS. Now I use nothing but DVD.
All the same, you could throw it at people... or cut it up to make a Darth
Vader costume...
>> OTOH, if you want a straightforward beta, you need to talk to Centauri...
>
> I wonder... if I were called away to fight in someone else's interstellar
> war, and had to leave all my family and friends behind and engage in combat
> while horribly outnumbered, with my only companion a gung-ho iguana who
> tells me to relax ... would anyone notice?
Round here? Nahh!
>> Pol'
>
> Steve Tilson
Pol'
John Donchig
>>>>*cough*PEDANT*cough* =P
>>>>
>>>>Just haaaaad to write it in Latin.
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually, it never struck me to write it in any other language - pedantry
>>>would've been going to Google to check I'd got the name quite right...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey, give you a cookie if you can tell me what passage from Einhardt is
>>>>the earliest known analogue to the Cinderella tale.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not a clue...
>>>
>>>Smartass =)
>>
>>I gotta get my shots in too.
>
>
> So who's keeping score? jmf?
>
>
>>Do you recall a little passage with a
>>young lady and an older lady that goes something like this:
>>
>>"Saaaaaay......wanna take a look in that big heavy trunk for me? Here,
>>I'll just hold open the lid for you while you're in there.....no no, I
>>think it's farther toward the bottom....stick your head in juuuuuuust a
>>bit further....*SLAM*!
>
>
> [blank look - sorry]
>
> That's one to John, btw, Jill-Marie...
I'll find the reference and tell you exactly where. I remember it from
when I read Einhardt 6 years ago, and was reminded when I read a book
called _Cinderella: A Casebook_ about 6 months ago. The author of the
book is Alan Dundes, if you want to look for yourself.
Is there anything we know we disagree about, just to get us back on track?
John
John Donchig
>>>Actually, that's the period that sees most of the development of the
>>>watermill,
>>
>>OK, I'm lost, which period are you talking about here?
>
>
> The "Dark Ages"...
Gotcha.
>>>and (juding by tree-ring analysis) a lot of the development of
>>>the plough and growth in farming through the clearing of waste... as to the
>>>clock, it's a difficult question, but the water-clock was known from the
>>>Hellenistic period, and I wouldn't have put it past the Byzantines or the
>>>'Sabians' of Carrhae (= Plato's Academy, I kid you not) to have developed
>>>the basic mechanical clock by 800 - though the mainspring only came about in
>>>the C16th...
>>>
>>>=)
>>
>>And we wonder why people throw the word "pedant" around like it's a curse.
>
>
> You use that word a lot. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The sot has spoken!
> But sorry, I guess I just inferred that you wanted my E0.02...
>
>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
>>
>>Nope. Rereading a couple of Perez-Reverte,
>
>
> Good man! You found that film of _The Flanders Panel_ yet?
No. Bloody bastards. It should be easier for you to get since you're
already on that side of the pond.
>>just started _Michaelangelo and the Pope's Ceiling_,
>
>
> The Agony and the Ecstasy!
Damn dirty apes!
BTW, coincidence Brunulleschi got mentioed elsewhere in this thread.
>>and just finished _What If....? Part 2_.
>
>
> Not read, I'm afraid... counterfactualled out on my own games and _Virtual
> History_...
Some of it was really good, e.g. the one about what if Jesus hadn't been
crucified, some were merely interesting, e.g. the one about what if
Socrates had died in battle during the Peloppenesian War, and some were
a little....ponderous, like the one about "What if Patton and Mongomery
had been allowed to push straight through to Berlin when they wanted to."
Overall a good read though.
>>Is _Baudolino_ good?
>
>
> I enjoyed it... which isn't a straightforward recommendation. Not exactly
> fireworks in the writing, but some... interesting... stuff... not so much
> playing with the Middle Ages as playing with Medievalism, this time... and a
> decidedly odd (but IMHO forgiveable) literary riff on something in the _Name
> of the Rose_... I reckon you might have fun with it...
>
> One other thing I'll recommend (with reservations) is _The Dream of Scipio_
> by Ian Pears... though I'd recommend _An Instance of the Fingerpost_ more
> wholeheartedly...
Started to read the latter.....didn't get very far.....was expecting (or
hoping for) Perez-Reverte, and when I didn't get it I threw it away in
disgust.
John
John Donchig
Because morons run the internet?
Anyway, Anne, go find a book called _The Flanders Panel_ by Arturo
Perez-Reverte. Then, when you're blown away, go read all his other
books, starting with _The Club Dumas_.
John
John Donchig
> I will give you, however, that there is a *tension*... Jerome was never able
> to articulate an explicit solution to the problem that being a Christian and
> a Ciceronian seemed mutually exclusive...
Poor bastard even stayed up nights thinking about it . . . =P
John
policrat'
on board!
>
>>>> Actually, that's the period that sees most of the development of the
>>>> watermill,
>>>
>>> OK, I'm lost, which period are you talking about here?
>>
>>
>> The "Dark Ages"...
>
> Gotcha.
Well held!
>>>> and (juding by tree-ring analysis) a lot of the development of
>>>> the plough and growth in farming through the clearing of waste... as to the
>>>> clock, it's a difficult question, but the water-clock was known from the
>>>> Hellenistic period, and I wouldn't have put it past the Byzantines or the
>>>> 'Sabians' of Carrhae (= Plato's Academy, I kid you not) to have developed
>>>> the basic mechanical clock by 800 - though the mainspring only came about
>>>> in
>>>> the C16th...
>>>>
>>>> =)
>>>
>>> And we wonder why people throw the word "pedant" around like it's a curse.
>>
>> You use that word a lot. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>
> The sot has spoken!
"Hic!"
>> But sorry, I guess I just inferred that you wanted my E0.02...
>>
>>
>>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> You read Eco's _Baudolino_ yet, btw?
>>>
>>> Nope. Rereading a couple of Perez-Reverte,
>>
>> Good man! You found that film of _The Flanders Panel_ yet?
>
> No. Bloody bastards. It should be easier for you to get since you're
> already on that side of the pond.
You'd think. It was on cable/satellite TV here last year, so that might be
the place to look for it... got highlighted as Film of the Day in the
papers, as well...
>>> just started _Michaelangelo and the Pope's Ceiling_,
>>
>> The Agony and the Ecstasy!
>
> Damn dirty apes!
Who, the Swiss infantry?
> BTW, coincidence Brunulleschi got mentioed elsewhere in this thread.
Way-hay!
Or just Jung?
>>> and just finished _What If....? Part 2_.
>>
>>
>> Not read, I'm afraid... counterfactualled out on my own games and _Virtual
>> History_...
>
> Some of it was really good, e.g. the one about what if Jesus hadn't been
> crucified,
I found that *way* too liberal-fondue-party... that sort of thing is
something rather... difficult... to deal with, unless you change the
goalpoasts really heavily...
Which reminds me, I did read it - at least, I browsed it...
> some were merely interesting, e.g. the one about what if Socrates had died in
> battle during the Peloppenesian War, and some were a little....ponderous, like
> the one about "What if Patton and Mongomery had been allowed to push straight
> through to Berlin when they wanted to."
>
> Overall a good read though.
The only other one I remember is the Protestant-Ascendancy killing-off of
Charles I in favour of Elizabeth of Bohemia in 1639 - setting the cart very
much before the horse, IMHO...
I guess my problem here is partly related to my sporadic attempts to write
the perennial "Julian the Apostate isn't killed in Persia" counterfactual...
on which note, I'd *really* recommed John M. Ford's _The Dragon Waiting_...
the Renaissance and Wars of the Roses on the back of that old chesnut...
But speaking from personal experience, I found the tension between keeping
the familiar and changing stuff stimulating in a historiographical sense,
but insane in terms of the counterfactual... the way I've largely done it is
to change (or swap) major ideological and politico-economic things (so the
Franks, Anglo-Saxons and Burgundians become 'Romans', and the Armenians,
Slavs and Isaurians stay Armenians, Slavs and Isaurians rather than becoming
Byzantines) and keep more simple and human events on the same scale... as if
time is tending to straighten itself out... but it's... difficult...
Perhaps I'm just awkward in that I've thrown in the twist that, in the
long-term, I have the pagan Eastern Empire all-but collapse and the
Christian Western Empire survive in robust good shape...
>>> Is _Baudolino_ good?
>>
>>
>> I enjoyed it... which isn't a straightforward recommendation. Not exactly
>> fireworks in the writing, but some... interesting... stuff... not so much
>> playing with the Middle Ages as playing with Medievalism, this time... and a
>> decidedly odd (but IMHO forgiveable) literary riff on something in the _Name
>> of the Rose_... I reckon you might have fun with it...
>>
>> One other thing I'll recommend (with reservations) is _The Dream of Scipio_
>> by Ian Pears... though I'd recommend _An Instance of the Fingerpost_ more
>> wholeheartedly...
>
> Started to read the latter.....didn't get very far.....was expecting (or
> hoping for) Perez-Reverte, and when I didn't get it I threw it away in
> disgust.
Sorry 'bout that... was it my recommendation?
It actually has some interesting similarities to _The Dumas Club_ in terms
of structure and misleading-the-reader...
> John
Pol'
policrat'
on board!
>
I don't blame him...
> John
Pol'
policrat'
Aye!
> John
Pol'
Jill Marie
Pol' wrote::
> So who's keeping score? jmf?
>>Do you recall a little passage with a
>>young lady and an older lady that
>>goes something like this:
>>"Saaaaaay......wanna take a look in that
>> big heavy trunk for me? Here, I'll just hold
>> open the lid for you while you're in there.....
>> no no, I think it's farther toward the bottom....
>> stick your head in juuuuuuust a
>>bit further....*SLAM*!
> >
> >
> > [blank look - sorry]
I have no idea, either.
> That's one to John, btw, Jill-Marie...
You think that *I* can keep track of all this literary BS that's
flying around in this thread? ;-)
~~jill marie
policrat'
board!
>
> Pol' wrote::
>
>> So who's keeping score? jmf?
>
>>> Do you recall a little passage with a
>>> young lady and an older lady that
>>> goes something like this:
>
>>> "Saaaaaay......wanna take a look in that
>>> big heavy trunk for me? Here, I'll just hold
>>> open the lid for you while you're in there.....
>>> no no, I think it's farther toward the bottom....
>>> stick your head in juuuuuuust a
>>> bit further....*SLAM*!
>>>
>>>
>>> [blank look - sorry]
>
> I have no idea, either.
=)
>> That's one to John, btw, Jill-Marie...
>
> You think that *I* can keep track of all this literary BS that's
> flying around in this thread? ;-)
Well, it *is* your thread - and you've a better chance than anyone else...
> ~~jill marie
Pol'