How are people getting on with O'Brian
Jo Walton
a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
These really are remarkably good books.
I read them in random order - not recommended. I'm now re-reading them
in the right order, having bought a fair few of them and re-reading the
ones that are on the shelf in the library in sequence. I've just reached,
for the second time, the point in :The Thirteen Gun Salute: where I no
longer wish to be acquainted with Stephen Maturin. :The Reverse of the
Medal: had the amazing effect, on re-reading, of making tears come to
my eyes on the bus.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Blood of Kings Poetry; rasfw FAQ;
Reviews; Interstichia; Momentum - a paying market for real poetry.
Rich Horton
wrote:
>I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
>a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
>has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
>to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
>
>These really are remarkably good books.
>
>I read them in random order - not recommended. I'm now re-reading them
>in the right order, having bought a fair few of them and re-reading the
>ones that are on the shelf in the library in sequence. I've just reached,
>for the second time, the point in :The Thirteen Gun Salute: where I no
>longer wish to be acquainted with Stephen Maturin. :The Reverse of the
>Medal: had the amazing effect, on re-reading, of making tears come to
>my eyes on the bus.
I've been reading at a strict book/month for about the same time
(IIRC) as Maureen. I started last October, this October I read #13,
appropriately enough, _The Thirteen-Gun Salute_.
Why don't you want to be acquainted with Stephen any more? The behind
the scenes treatment of ... certain bad guys?
In many ways, _The Thirteen-Gun Salute_ was one of the least good of
the series, for me. (It may have been a personal thing: it was
keeping me from _The Avram Davidson Treasury_. Sometimes you have to
read a book at the right time.) Which, as I said recently in another
context, much to the confusion of someone else, still places it pretty
firmly within Sturgeon's 10%. (More like 1%, in this case.)
As to _The Reverse of the Medal_: yes, absolutely. Luckily I wasn't
on a bus, but I cried quite a bit. (Actually I think I was at a
restaurant, and soon heading back to work. Red eyes can be
embarrassing. Reminds me of the time I was fool enough to read the
end of Susan Palwick's _Flying in Place_ over lunch hour.) Probably
as much as at any time since _H.M.S. Surprise_.
--
Rich Horton | rrho...@concentric.net
"I am an excellent cook, and anyway when I am fifty I will probably
prefer the breakfast to the girl anyway." - W. M. Spackman
Janice Gelb
>I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
>a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
>has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
>to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
>
I've been using these as my "lunch/dinner alone companion" books,
and haven't been as self-disciplined as Maureen - as soon as I finish
one I get the next one out of the library.
> I've just reached,
>for the second time, the point in :The Thirteen Gun Salute: where I no
>longer wish to be acquainted with Stephen Maturin.
Well, fooey: I just finished _The Letter of Marque_ and as soon
as I get back from my upcoming week-long trip to MA, I'll be
starting on _The Thirteen Gun Salute_. I'm now not looking
forward to it nearly as much as I was thanks to this comment
and the one from Rich Horton.
********************************************************************************
Janice Gelb | The only connection Sun has with this
janic...@eng.sun.com | message is the return address.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8018/index.html
"The first Halloween prank ever, played by a group of Druid teenagers, was
Stonehenge. (`HEY! You kids get those rocks OFF my LAWN!')" -- Dave Barry
Avram Grumer
> I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
> a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
> has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
> to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
I just finished _H.M.S. Surprise_ last week. I don't happen to have a
copy of whatever the next one is handy, and I'm catching up on some of the
rest of my to-read stack, so it may be a few months till I get around to
reading on in the series. I find them good and interesting (and
occasionally frustrating; I've seen a book on naval terminology that's a
companion to the series that I may pick up), but I don't feel compelled to
read them all as fast as I can.
> I've just reached, for the second time, the point in :The Thirteen Gun
> Salute: where I no longer wish to be acquainted with Stephen Maturin.
Well, that intrigues me. How far into the series is _The Thirteen Gun
Salute_?
I'm also planning to make time to read O'Brian's biography of Picasso at
some point.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@bigfoot.com | http://www.bigfoot.com/~avram/
If music be the food of love, then some of it be the Twinkies of
dysfunctional relationships.
Jo Walton
AND :THE REVERSE OF THE MEDAL:
In article <36353ab4...@news.concentric.net>
rrho...@concentric.net "Rich Horton" writes:
> On Sat, 24 Oct 98 16:38:40 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
> wrote:
>
> >I read them in random order - not recommended. I'm now re-reading them
> >in the right order, having bought a fair few of them and re-reading the
> >ones that are on the shelf in the library in sequence. I've just reached,
> >for the second time, the point in :The Thirteen Gun Salute: where I no
> >longer wish to be acquainted with Stephen Maturin. :The Reverse of the
> >Medal: had the amazing effect, on re-reading, of making tears come to
> >my eyes on the bus.
>
> I've been reading at a strict book/month for about the same time
> (IIRC) as Maureen. I started last October, this October I read #13,
> appropriately enough, _The Thirteen-Gun Salute_.
Yeah, OK, you've got self-restraint and I haven't. When I want to read
something I want to READ SOMETHING. Now, not next month or when the
magnolias bloom.
> Why don't you want to be acquainted with Stephen any more? The behind
> the scenes treatment of ... certain bad guys?
I still think that dissecting one's enemies, people with whom one has
played cards, is really outside the scope of polite behaviour.
> In many ways, _The Thirteen-Gun Salute_ was one of the least good of
> the series, for me. (It may have been a personal thing: it was
> keeping me from _The Avram Davidson Treasury_. Sometimes you have to
> read a book at the right time.)
Yes. Which is why reading things on a timetable seems so odd to me.
Which, as I said recently in another
> context, much to the confusion of someone else, still places it pretty
> firmly within Sturgeon's 10%. (More like 1%, in this case.)
Even a weak O'Brian is far better than most things, yes. I don't think
it is a weak one though, I think it's one of the best.
> As to _The Reverse of the Medal_: yes, absolutely. Luckily I wasn't
> on a bus, but I cried quite a bit. (Actually I think I was at a
> restaurant, and soon heading back to work. Red eyes can be
> embarrassing.
I don't think anyone noticed, and if they did they'd just think I had
an unhappy love affair and not realise that it was tears of, hmm,
whatever is that emotion? It seems very odd to say one wept with pride,
but I suppose that's something like it. I'm talking about the moment
when Aubrey is pilloried and everyone takes off their caps and cheers,
risking their careers. Quite a different thing from Diarmuid's death or
"The Scholar's Tale" in :Hyperion: both of which bring tears to my
eyes every time. Odd to think what it is that has that effect.
Reminds me of the time I was fool enough to read the
> end of Susan Palwick's _Flying in Place_ over lunch hour.) Probably
> as much as at any time since _H.M.S. Surprise_.
I haven't read :Flying in Place:, though I very much enjoyed her
"Ever After".
Maureen Kincaid Speller
wrote:
>I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
>a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
>has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
>to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
>
Paul Kincaid here - so I should know.
Currently, waiting at home in a neat little pile all ready for her,
Maureen has: The Ionian Mission, Treason's Harbour, The Far Side of
the World, The Reverse of the Medal, The Letter of Marque, The
Thirteen Gun Salute and The Nutmeg of Consolation.
I reckon that should keep her busy until Christmas.
PaulK
David G. Bell
FLASH!
TAFF Delegate flies home to deal with family energency. "I have to save
them from O'Brian!" she declares.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
John Boston
>[snip]
>
>In article <36353ab4...@news.concentric.net>
> rrho...@concentric.net "Rich Horton" writes:
>>
>> In many ways, _The Thirteen-Gun Salute_ was one of the least good of
>> the series, for me. (It may have been a personal thing: it was
>> keeping me from _The Avram Davidson Treasury_. Sometimes you have to
>> read a book at the right time.)
What? THE AVRAM DAVIDSON TREASURY is out? Or did you finagle an
advance copy?
John Boston
P Nielsen Hayden
We've had copies in the office for two or three weeks. ISBN 0-312-86729-8.
I've seen it for sale at a couple of bookstores.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Ulrika
In article <avram-25109...@ts1port15.port.net>, av...@bigfoot.com
(Avram Grumer) writes:
>I just finished _H.M.S. Surprise_ last week. I don't happen to have
>a copy of whatever the next one is handy, and I'm catching up on
>some of the rest of my to-read stack, so it may be a few months
>till I get around to reading on in the series. I find them good
>and interesting (and occasionally frustrating; I've seen a book on
>naval terminology that's a companion to the series that I may pick
>up), but I don't feel compelled to read them all as fast as I can.
Ah, finally someone who's not ahead of me. I'm currently bogged
down in the middle of -Treason's Harbor-. A friend at work leant
me Wally Lamb's -She's Come Undone- right in the middle of
my O'Briening and I made the mistake of starting the Lamb
over lunch, having no other book with me that day, and became
so engrossed that I churned right through it. When I came back
to the O'Brien I found that it wasn't quite what I wanted just
then, anymore, so now I'm reading Ann Patchett's -The Patron
Saint of Liars- which seems to go better as a follow-up to
Lamb.
On O'Brien, I've been reading him as close to in order as I
can manage, given the vagaries of availability in local book
stores, such that at the moment I've been reading every other
in the series: I've read -Desolation Island- but not -Fortune of
War-, and then -Surgeon's Mate- but not yet -The Ionian Mission-. Being mildly
out of order seems to work okay for me -- big plot
details of the other recent books are ususally at least alluded to in dialog in
the subsequent ones, and I have the missing two now
waiting for me at the campus bookstore.
For all that I'm bogged down for the moment, when I'm in the
mood for O'Brian, I enjoy the books a great deal. I'm generally in
love with his penchant for details, both ship life and technical
sailing detail. Some of it has been going by me, but having had
a couple of sailing classes under my belt, and currently working on
more helps in certain respects. I haven't yet sailed anything big
enough to warrant reef points/bands in the sails, but I could easily enough
surmise approximately what reefing sails has to accomplish
and how it more-or-less must be done, and when I mentioned
reefing to my sailing instructor, he took the time to point out the
reef points on a passing yacht, and explain the reefing process
as it works on a modern sloop-rigged sailing ship. From previous
experience I already knew that halyards and sheets are both
specific ropes (though it's sacrilege to call them that) that have
particular jobs in the process of rigging sails, and so forth.
I also very recently found what looks like an excellent resource
for sorting out more of the technical detail in O'Brien's books.
While Maureen was in town we were browsing at the local Barnes
& Noble and came across a book called -The Lore of Ships- on
the sale tables. It's a big coffee table affair, and very copiously
illustrated. It seems pretty decently authoritative from ancient
vessels and on up to modern ships. It also appears to have a
pretty fair index, though I have been finding things as often by
the expedient of flipping through the pictures.
This monster of a book has an amazing wealth of detail. In it I've confirmed
my suspicions as to the rigging order of topgallants as versus royals, and
further discovered that you can have royal
staysails as well as square royals. There are ship profiles so that
you can distinguish between a sloop and a ketch and a barkentine
and a caravel and a bark (jackass or otherwise) and a brig and
a snow (at last! -- though in fairness I very much doubt I could tell
a brig from a snow without a program or a good deal more
coaching any better than Stephen Maturin might -- they are awfully
similar looking, to me). I now know where the cathead lies, and
the futtocks, and the knees, and can make some fair guess about how studding
sails are rigged (it appears they depend from additional spars that are lashed
to the ends of the yard arms). I should
mention that it is mostly pictures and proportionally little text, so
anyone interested in detailed written explanations will likely
be disappointed.
I so volubly enthused over it that Maureen bought one, too,
which self-referentially enough will be wending its way back to
the UK by boat mail. Now I've just got to find another copy of
-Lobscouse and Spotted Dog- since I'm now thinking I'll want
one. Maureen already picked up hers, at the Other Change
of Hobbit...
--Ulrika
"Yes, indeed, the Lord is a shoving leopard." -- Rev. W.A. Spooner
** Ulrika O'Brien-...@aol.com**
Doug Wickstrom
stream to say:
>There are ship profiles so that
>you can distinguish between a sloop and a ketch and a barkentine
>and a caravel and a bark (jackass or otherwise) and a brig and
>a snow (at last! -- though in fairness I very much doubt I could tell
>a brig from a snow without a program or a good deal more
>coaching any better than Stephen Maturin might -- they are awfully
>similar looking, to me).
But what of pinks?
--
Doug Wickstrom
Those truly desirous of private communication may find it helpful
to drop the "x" in the reply field, and replace "aol.com" with
"worldnet.att.net," cause the reply field is a fib.
Gary Farber
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: SPOILERS FOR :THE THIRTEEN GUN SALUTE:
: AND :THE REVERSE OF THE MEDAL:
[. . .]
: I still think that dissecting one's enemies, people with whom one has
: played cards, is really outside the scope of polite behaviour.
I suggest not changing careers into being a coroner/Medical Examiner,
then.
[. . .]
: I haven't read :Flying in Place:, though I very much enjoyed her
: "Ever After".
Do; it's quite good. Extraordinary for a first novel.
Incidentally, the week "The Hundred Days" came out, it was on all the main
best-seller lists here -- and still is; was #12 on the Times list, and
this week is #5; they had a full-page ad in the NY TIMES Book Review (and
elsewhere, I'm sure), and it's been reviewed in all the main papers I've
seen, including the NY TIMES and WASHINGTON POST). O'Brian is not being
published in obscurity, any more.
--
Copyright 1998 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US
Gary Farber
John Boston <jbo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: What? THE AVRAM DAVIDSON TREASURY is out? Or did you finagle an
: advance copy?
The proof I had at the beginning of August said it was an October release,
so it surely has been out for some weeks. Wonderful book, of course.
I'd not reread "Help! I Am Dr. Morris Goldpepper" in many years, and not
previously read many of the stories at all. The introductions by a vast
range of writers (Willhelm, Budrys, Dozois, Swanwick, Silverberg, Knight,
Benford, Ford, Pohl, Le Guin, Disch, Wolfe, Gibson, Beagle, Ellison,
Bradbury, etc.) are mere icing on the cake of this gloriously unique
writer's stories.
Ulrika
In article <363c7a69...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>On 25 Oct 1998 17:30:50 GMT, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) modulated the bit
>stream to say:
>
>>There are ship profiles so that
>>you can distinguish between a sloop and a ketch and a barkentine
>>and a caravel and a bark (jackass or otherwise) and a brig and
>>a snow (at last! -- though in fairness I very much doubt I could tell
>>a brig from a snow without a program or a good deal more
>>coaching any better than Stephen Maturin might -- they are awfully
>>similar looking, to me).
>
>But what of pinks?
It's a little late in the year for them, most places.
Jo Walton
ulr...@aol.com "Ulrika" writes:
> For all that I'm bogged down for the moment, when I'm in the
> mood for O'Brian, I enjoy the books a great deal. I'm generally in
> love with his penchant for details, both ship life and technical
> sailing detail. Some of it has been going by me, but having had
> a couple of sailing classes under my belt, and currently working on
> more helps in certain respects. I haven't yet sailed anything big
> enough to warrant reef points/bands in the sails, but I could easily enough
> surmise approximately what reefing sails has to accomplish
> and how it more-or-less must be done, and when I mentioned
> reefing to my sailing instructor, he took the time to point out the
> reef points on a passing yacht, and explain the reefing process
> as it works on a modern sloop-rigged sailing ship. From previous
> experience I already knew that halyards and sheets are both
> specific ropes (though it's sacrilege to call them that) that have
> particular jobs in the process of rigging sails, and so forth.
It was rather windy last night, and the rain was lashing against
my bedroom window (not to mention coming through the kitchen roof,
but I didn't find that out until later.) I half woke up as the
window rattles and the rain lashed and thought "Gosh, the wind's
getting up, I must put another reef in the curtain." And went back to
sleep.
I haven't been in a sailing boat for years, but I have been reading
rather a lot of O'Brian recently.
Mike Scott
>
>In article <363c7a69...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>>
>>But what of pinks?
>
>It's a little late in the year for them, most places.
Actually, "pink" is supposedly the English word with the most separate
meanings (although several of them appear to be derived from a German
word for a small fish, which is cheating).
--
Mike Scott
mi...@moose.demon.co.uk
PNN has frequently updated news & comment for SF fandom
http://www.plokta.com/pnn/
Gary Farber
[. . .]
: It was rather windy last night, and the rain was lashing against
: my bedroom window (not to mention coming through the kitchen roof,
: but I didn't find that out until later.) I half woke up as the
: window rattles and the rain lashed and thought "Gosh, the wind's
: getting up, I must put another reef in the curtain." And went back to
: sleep.
Yesterday there was a huge storm throughout England and Scotland
(obviously Wales, too, but the reports I read didn't specify there): 80+
mph winds. No surprise you noted it.
: I haven't been in a sailing boat for years, but I have been reading
: rather a lot of O'Brian recently.
And now Timebinders is discussing him as well, since Bill Donaho
discovered him.
Rob Hansen
wrote:
>In <909339...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>[. . .]
>
>: It was rather windy last night, and the rain was lashing against
>: my bedroom window (not to mention coming through the kitchen roof,
>: but I didn't find that out until later.) I half woke up as the
>: window rattles and the rain lashed and thought "Gosh, the wind's
>: getting up, I must put another reef in the curtain." And went back to
>: sleep.
>
>Yesterday there was a huge storm throughout England and Scotland
>(obviously Wales, too, but the reports I read didn't specify there): 80+
>mph winds. No surprise you noted it.
The reports over here certainly specified Wales - worst flooding in 20
years. Total damage across England and Wales as a consequence of last
night's storms is estimated at 250m to 400m pounds. Pretty severe
weather by our standards.
Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/
Rich Horton
wrote:
>SPOILERS FOR :THE THIRTEEN GUN SALUTE:
>
>AND :THE REVERSE OF THE MEDAL:
>
(and now, obliquely, for _The Ionian Mission_, as well)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In article <36353ab4...@news.concentric.net>
> rrho...@concentric.net "Rich Horton" writes:
>
>Yeah, OK, you've got self-restraint and I haven't. When I want to read
>something I want to READ SOMETHING. Now, not next month or when the
>magnolias bloom.
>
I have rather less self-restraint in many matters than I ought. (One
reason I have several hundred books I haven't yet read: I =know= I
want them, even though I've got a TBR next! pile 30 books high.)
>> Why don't you want to be acquainted with Stephen any more? The behind
>> the scenes treatment of ... certain bad guys?
>
>I still think that dissecting one's enemies, people with whom one has
>played cards, is really outside the scope of polite behaviour.
>
That was a very disquieting scene indeed, and it contributes to the
buttressing of Graydon's statement about the characters in these
books: something to the effect that they are aliens to us (thus SF
readers ought to like them.) I don't think Gary's comparison with a
coroner/medical examiner is really valid.
But, you know, Wray =cheated= at cards. (Though not, successfully,
against Stephen.) Just not done, eh?
>> In many ways, _The Thirteen-Gun Salute_ was one of the least good of
>> the series, for me. (It may have been a personal thing: it was
>> keeping me from _The Avram Davidson Treasury_. Sometimes you have to
>> read a book at the right time.)
>
>Yes. Which is why reading things on a timetable seems so odd to me.
>
I've convinced myself, and I think I'm right (for me, not for anyone
else) that much as I would enjoy reading _The Nutmeg of Consolation_
tomorrow (and what a great title!), I'll most likely enjoy it more
still if I wait a month. I've certainly failed in the past on this
discipline: I rushed straight from _Fifth Business_ to _The
Manticore_, f'rinstance. And I didn't like TM nearly as much as FB.
(Of course, neither do most people, it would seem.)
Without exception (definitely in the case of _The Thirteen-Gun
Salute_), O'Brian's books leave me agog to begin the next. But I do
have plenty of other books clamoring for my attention.
> Which, as I said recently in another
>> context, much to the confusion of someone else, still places it pretty
>> firmly within Sturgeon's 10%. (More like 1%, in this case.)
>
>Even a weak O'Brian is far better than most things, yes. I don't think
>it is a weak one though, I think it's one of the best.
>
>> As to _The Reverse of the Medal_: yes, absolutely. Luckily I wasn't
>> on a bus, but I cried quite a bit. (Actually I think I was at a
>> restaurant, and soon heading back to work. Red eyes can be
>> embarrassing.
>
>I don't think anyone noticed, and if they did they'd just think I had
>an unhappy love affair and not realise that it was tears of, hmm,
>whatever is that emotion? It seems very odd to say one wept with pride,
>but I suppose that's something like it. I'm talking about the moment
>when Aubrey is pilloried and everyone takes off their caps and cheers,
>risking their careers. Quite a different thing from Diarmuid's death or
>"The Scholar's Tale" in :Hyperion: both of which bring tears to my
>eyes every time. Odd to think what it is that has that effect.
>
Oh yes, that was the scene I meant as well, and for the same reason, I
think. Other things that do it for me again and again are the ends of
"Nine Lives" and "The Stars Below", and also "The Man Who Lost the
Sea". None of them strictly speaking "sad".
Doug Wickstrom
stream to say:
>
>In article <363c7a69...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>
>>On 25 Oct 1998 17:30:50 GMT, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) modulated the bit
>>stream to say:
>>
>>>There are ship profiles so that
>>>you can distinguish between a sloop and a ketch and a barkentine
>>>and a caravel and a bark (jackass or otherwise) and a brig and
>>>a snow (at last! -- though in fairness I very much doubt I could tell
>>>a brig from a snow without a program or a good deal more
>>>coaching any better than Stephen Maturin might -- they are awfully
>>>similar looking, to me).
>>
>>But what of pinks?
>
>It's a little late in the year for them, most places.
Wrong kind of pink, I'm afraid. You must pay better attention to your
nautical terminology. A pink is like a snow, but more so, having a
trysail mast abaft the fore, as well as the main.
Then there're hermaphrodite brigs, but the less said about them, the
better.
And you cannot imagine how long I've been waiting for an opportunity
to use that crack about hermaphrodite brigs. :)
--
Doug Wickstrom
Und süße Früchte werden aus den herben
Und fallen nachts wie tote Vögel nieder
Und liegen wenig Tage und verderben.
--Hugo von Hofmannsthal
Alison Scott
>Yesterday there was a huge storm throughout England and Scotland
>(obviously Wales, too, but the reports I read didn't specify there): 80+
>mph winds. No surprise you noted it.
Hmm. I certainly noticed it. Rather damp wedding photos available real
soon now at www.fuggles.demon.co.uk .
--
Alison Scott ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk
Now with added cobwebs: www.fuggles.demon.co.uk
Gary Farber
: Gary Farber <gfa...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
:>Yesterday there was a huge storm throughout England and Scotland
:>(obviously Wales, too, but the reports I read didn't specify there): 80+
:>mph winds. No surprise you noted it.
: Hmm. I certainly noticed it. Rather damp wedding photos available real
: soon now at www.fuggles.demon.co.uk .
Congrats to you and Steven.
mike weber
Oct 98 16:38:40 GMT,
>I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
>a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
>has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
>to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
>
>
Commander-, wasn't it? -- last year because everyone was raving about
them on RASFF, and felt absolutely no compulsion to read the next.
As a matter of fact, i had to work to finish the one.
This may be something that was peculiar to that time and place, and i
might enjoy it/them if i tried it now, but, looking back, i find no
particular urge to find out.
This is apparently the result of some sort of style-deafness in
myself, i am sure, but i must admit to having been perplexed as to
what all the noise was about as i pushed on to the end of the book,
hoping that the ending would pay for all... Which it didn't.
I found one of the leads boring and one annoying -- and i can't recall
which was which -- basically, i didn't particularly want to know thes
two characters.
So, enlighten me -- what am i missing seeing?
--
"History doesn't always repeat itself... sometimes it just
screams 'Why don't you listen when I'm talkingto you?' and
lets fly with a club." JWC,Jr.
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
Gary Farber
mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: So, enlighten me -- what am i missing seeing?
That every commentator here has asserted that the first book is unusually
slow and unrepresentative?
David Goldfarb
Gary Farber <gfa...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
)In <3633f182....@news.mindspring.com>
)mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
)[. . .]
)
): So, enlighten me -- what am i missing seeing?
)
)That every commentator here has asserted that the first book is unusually
)slow and unrepresentative?
Undeniably so. But Mike didn't say that he found the prose
and narrative of _Master and Commander_ slow; he said that he was not
engaged by Aubrey and Maturin as characters. That being so, I for one
would doubt that he'd find the rest of the series worth his time and
money. Not everything is for everybody.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Special agents have been employed to slow the
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | film down and grind it to a screeching halt."
aste...@slip.net | -- Mystery Science Theater 3000,
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | "Rocket Attack USA"
P Nielsen Hayden
>In <3633f182....@news.mindspring.com>
>mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>
>: So, enlighten me -- what am i missing seeing?
>
>That every commentator here has asserted that the first book is unusually
>slow and unrepresentative?
Quite so. However, he also says he doesn't like the characters, and the
first book gives a good enough representation of them. I would say POB
ain't for Mike.
John Richards
>
> I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
> a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
> has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
> to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
>
> These really are remarkably good books.
>
> in the right order, having bought a fair few of them and re-reading the
> ones that are on the shelf in the library in sequence. I've just reached,
> for the second time, the point in :The Thirteen Gun Salute: where I no
> longer wish to be acquainted with Stephen Maturin. :The Reverse of the
> Medal: had the amazing effect, on re-reading, of making tears come to
> my eyes on the bus.
I gave up on my re-reading just recently to trawl through the Hornblower
books just in time for the TV series.
Why did they do that to the duel between Hornblower and Simpson? Other
points on filming include the stealth Isle of Wight (completely
invisible from Spithead) and the fact that while the script requires an
open boat to be out of sight of the land the cliffs are clearly in shot
- oops.
Oh well Forrester is an excellent light lunch but O'Brian makes a fine
dinner.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
Jo Walton
gfa...@panix2.panix.com "Gary Farber" writes:
> In <3633f182....@news.mindspring.com>
> mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
> [. . .]
>
> : So, enlighten me -- what am i missing seeing?
>
> That every commentator here has asserted that the first book is unusually
> slow and unrepresentative?
I don't think it is. I didn't read it first, which might make a difference,
but I do think that while it's not as much in the flow of the whole thing
as the others (and nor is :Post Captain:) it's representative.
My opinion is that any one book isn't all that wonderful, and probably
any one read first doesn't do all that much. It's the cumulative effect
that really works - it took four at random before I stopped reading
them casually when they were convenient and started making an effort
to get hold of them.
I'm really enjoying reading it in order though. It isn't a series
it's one book, rather longer than is usual.
Doug Wickstrom
<jo...@panorama.panorama.com> modulated the bit stream to say:
>Why did they do that to the duel between Hornblower and Simpson?
_What_ did they do to it? Use real bullets instead of toasted bread?
Alison Scott
>Hmm. I certainly noticed it. Rather damp wedding photos available real
>soon now at www.fuggles.demon.co.uk .
Our wedding page has now been uploaded - not perfect, and lacking
photos from the Jubilee in the evening (my camera had run out of
juice, and Steve didn't bring the cable to download his pictures). So
there will be more later. But you can get some feeling for what it was
like.
Avram Grumer
(Ulrika) wrote:
> On O'Brien, I've been reading him as close to in order as I
> can manage, given the vagaries of availability in local book
> stores, such that at the moment I've been reading every other
> in the series: I've read -Desolation Island- but not -Fortune of
> War-, and then -Surgeon's Mate- but not yet -The Ionian Mission-.
> Being mildly out of order seems to work okay for me -- big plot
> details of the other recent books are ususally at least alluded
> to in dialog in the subsequent ones, and I have the missing two
> now waiting for me at the campus bookstore.
Well, I ordered _The Mauritius Command_ and _Desolation Island_ from
Amazon.com today, along with _A Sea of Words: A Lexicon and Companion for
Patrick O'Brian's Seafaring Tales_. (All of O'Brian that I've read, I've
ordered from Amazon.com, and in order, but their recommendation software
isn't bright enough to give me recommendations for the _next_ books in the
series. It always recommends something much further on.)
And speaking of book order, I just finished Brust's _Dragon_, which takes
place both before and after _Yendi_.
> I also very recently found what looks like an excellent resource
> for sorting out more of the technical detail in O'Brien's books.
> While Maureen was in town we were browsing at the local Barnes
> & Noble and came across a book called -The Lore of Ships- on
> the sale tables. It's a big coffee table affair, and very copiously
> illustrated. It seems pretty decently authoritative from ancient
> vessels and on up to modern ships. It also appears to have a
> pretty fair index, though I have been finding things as often by
> the expedient of flipping through the pictures.
I got a few useful details from the public library's copy of the DK
Eyewitness book on ships and boats.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@bigfoot.com | http://www.bigfoot.com/~avram/
If music be the food of love, then some of it be the Twinkies of
dysfunctional relationships.
P Nielsen Hayden
>ali...@fuggles.demon.co.uk (Alison Scott) wrote:
>
>>Hmm. I certainly noticed it. Rather damp wedding photos available real
>>soon now at www.fuggles.demon.co.uk .
>
>Our wedding page has now been uploaded - not perfect, and lacking
>photos from the Jubilee in the evening (my camera had run out of
>juice, and Steve didn't bring the cable to download his pictures). So
>there will be more later. But you can get some feeling for what it was
>like.
I have the distinct impression from these pages that "what it was like" was,
in a word, "wet."
Alison Scott
>I have the distinct impression from these pages that "what it was like" was,
>in a word, "wet."
Wet & happy.
John Richards
>
> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:33:27 +0000, John Richards
> <jo...@panorama.panorama.com> modulated the bit stream to say:
>
> >Why did they do that to the duel between Hornblower and Simpson?
>
> _What_ did they do to it? Use real bullets instead of toasted bread?
>
In the book (Midshipman Hornblower) Hornblower as the insulted party set
the conditions so that only one pistol was loaded and the range was a
couple of yards. This gave him a 50% chance fighting an opponent who was
vastly more experienced. His Captain arranged that neither gun be loaded
and thus saved a life for the service.
In the TV film someone knocked him over the head and showed up in his
place.
Morgan
<mi...@moose.demon.co.uk> said:
>On 25 Oct 1998 20:57:42 GMT, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:
>
>>
>>In article <363c7a69...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
>>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>>>
>>>But what of pinks?
>>
>>It's a little late in the year for them, most places.
>
>meanings (although several of them appear to be derived from a German
>word for a small fish, which is cheating).
I thought it was 'set'?
--
Morgan
"I am active, adventurous, aggressive, assertive, curious, energetic,
enterprising, frank, independent and inventive.
Needless to say this hasn't won me many friends." cartoon by Rona Chadwick
Doug Wickstrom
<jo...@panorama.panorama.com> modulated the bit stream to say:
>Doug Wickstrom wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:33:27 +0000, John Richards
>> <jo...@panorama.panorama.com> modulated the bit stream to say:
>>
>> >Why did they do that to the duel between Hornblower and Simpson?
>>
>> _What_ did they do to it? Use real bullets instead of toasted bread?
>>
>Spoiler Space
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In the book (Midshipman Hornblower) Hornblower as the insulted party set
>the conditions so that only one pistol was loaded and the range was a
>couple of yards. This gave him a 50% chance fighting an opponent who was
>vastly more experienced. His Captain arranged that neither gun be loaded
>and thus saved a life for the service.
>
>In the TV film someone knocked him over the head and showed up in his
>place.
Ye gads that's sorry! As if the other party wouldn't recognize the
deception.
mike weber
Oct 1998 04:19:29 GMT,
>In <3633f182....@news.mindspring.com>
>mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>
>: So, enlighten me -- what am i missing seeing?
>
>That every commentator here has asserted that the first book is unusually
>slow and unrepresentative?
>
in the sense that it has not passed before my eyes, rather than that i
have failed to notice.
In fact, i cannot recall any posts in particular referring to the
first book at all.
However, this does not change the fact that i found trhe first book
virtually unreadable, being a book about two rather unpleasant and not
particularly engaging characters doing things that were, to say the
least, not particularly interesting.
Whether or not this bok is unrepresentative of the series as a whole,
noetheless, it -is- the first; having found it virtually unreadable,
why should i continue? ((Setting aside all the people who tall me how
good the books are)) Better -- why did anyone else persevere, in the
days before others were attesting to how wonderful the series became?
That is, if the first book is a lox, why did anyone else bother to
find out that the rest were better?
Doug Wickstrom
modulated the bit stream to say:
>That is, if the first book is a lox, why did anyone else bother to
>find out that the rest were better?
I dunno. Maybe for me it was running into _HMS Surprise_ first.
Of course, I always did have a soft spot for sea stories. :)
Ray Radlein
>
> Doug Wickstrom wrote:
> >
> > John Richards:
> >
> > >Why did they do that to the duel between Hornblower and Simpson?
> >
> > _What_ did they do to it?
> >
> In the TV film someone knocked him over the head and showed up in his
> place.
You have *got* to be joking. Ugh. That utterly ruins the whole thing.
- Ray R.
--
**********************************************************************
Ph'nglui mglw'afh Strom Thurmond Congress wagh'nagi fhtagn.
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
**********************************************************************
John Richards
>
> John Richards wrote:
> >
> > Doug Wickstrom wrote:
> > >
> > > John Richards:
> > >
> > > >Why did they do that to the duel between Hornblower and Simpson?
> > >
> > > _What_ did they do to it?
> > >
> > Spoiler Space
>
>
>
> > In the TV film someone knocked him over the head and showed up in his
> > place.
>
> You have *got* to be joking. Ugh. That utterly ruins the whole thing.
>
Yeah, that's what I thought too. It also indicates a certain lack of
understanding on behalf of the writer as to the way that an Officer and
a Gentleman is expected to behave (at least at the end of the 18th
Century). It turned out that they were saving up the duel in a rematch
for the climax at the ending when Hornblower is saved by Captain Pelew
shooting his opponent at long range with a musket.
That aside, oh, and the fact that they had guns on the top deck, it
wasn't too dreadful. A touch of the "Sharpe"'s in that we appear to be
fighting the Napoleon wars with a maximum of 50 people (only 7 of whom
have names) but this is typical of TV budgets.
I am rather more disaapointed by the TV company filming a history
programme about Horatio Nelson who refused to use HMS Victory for any of
the shots on the grounds that "it didn't look right". I believe that
they eventually wandered up to the Cuty Sark or somewhere to get that
all important air of "authenticity".
David Dyer-Bennet
>Gary Farber <gfa...@panix2.panix.com> is alleged to have said, on 26
>Oct 1998 04:19:29 GMT,
>:
>>In <3633f182....@news.mindspring.com>
>>mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
>>[. . .]
>>
>>: So, enlighten me -- what am i missing seeing?
>>
>>That every commentator here has asserted that the first book is unusually
>>slow and unrepresentative?
>>
>I may, indeed, be missing that. Hiowever, i am, i think, missing it
>in the sense that it has not passed before my eyes, rather than that i
>have failed to notice.
>In fact, i cannot recall any posts in particular referring to the
>first book at all.
I found, and find, the first book quite charming and pleasant,
myself. Being the first book, it certainly has some differences (has
to introduce the characters for the first time, for one thing), but
otherwise I don't find it that unusual in the series. Of course, the
series has a pretty wide range within it.
>However, this does not change the fact that i found trhe first book
>virtually unreadable, being a book about two rather unpleasant and not
>particularly engaging characters doing things that were, to say the
>least, not particularly interesting.
>Whether or not this bok is unrepresentative of the series as a whole,
>noetheless, it -is- the first; having found it virtually unreadable,
>why should i continue? ((Setting aside all the people who tall me how
>good the books are)) Better -- why did anyone else persevere, in the
>days before others were attesting to how wonderful the series became?
That's easy; I *loved* the first book, so it was a simple decision to
continue. So, if you didn't, maybe there *isn't* any reason to
continue.
I found Aubrey likable and Maturin fascinating, and I found the
depiction of the settings to be entrancing. AND I got hooked in
instantly at the chamber music concert, because I'm a Hornblower fan.
It was such a neat combined reference to, and declaration of
independence from, Hornblower, that I knew the author and I were going
to get on.
--
David Dyer-Bennet d...@ddb.com
http://www.ddb.com/~ddb (photos, sf) Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon
http://ouroboros.demesne.com/ The Ouroboros Bookworms
Join the 20th century before it's too late!
Doug Wickstrom
<jo...@panorama.panorama.com> modulated the bit stream to say:
>Ray Radlein wrote:
>>
>> John Richards wrote:
>> >
>> > Doug Wickstrom wrote:
>> > >
>> > > John Richards:
>> > >
>> > > >Why did they do that to the duel between Hornblower and Simpson?
>> > >
>> > > _What_ did they do to it?
>> > >
>> > Spoiler Space
>>
>>
>>
>> > In the TV film someone knocked him over the head and showed up in his
>> > place.
>>
>> You have *got* to be joking. Ugh. That utterly ruins the whole thing.
>>
>More Spoiler Space
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yeah, that's what I thought too. It also indicates a certain lack of
>understanding on behalf of the writer as to the way that an Officer and
>a Gentleman is expected to behave (at least at the end of the 18th
>Century). It turned out that they were saving up the duel in a rematch
>for the climax at the ending when Hornblower is saved by Captain Pelew
>shooting his opponent at long range with a musket.
Ye Gods! That's even worse! Have they no shame?
>That aside, oh, and the fact that they had guns on the top deck, it
>wasn't too dreadful. A touch of the "Sharpe"'s in that we appear to be
>fighting the Napoleon wars with a maximum of 50 people (only 7 of whom
>have names) but this is typical of TV budgets.
Most ships _did_ have guns on the top (spar) deck, including frigates.
They were mounted on the forecastle and quarterdeck only, excepting
Joshua Humphrey's flush-decked 4th rates, which were built to carry
them on the catwalks, too. (Hence comes the confusion over whether
Constitution, President, and United States were 44-gun frigates (5th
rate) or 56-gun ships of the line--the piercings along the catwalks
didn't count, except in action.) Judging from photographs,
Constitution also has the diagonal whatchamacallits that Jack Aubrey
waxed so lyrical over when Dr. Maturin bought Surprise out of service
and refitted her.
>I am rather more disaapointed by the TV company filming a history
>programme about Horatio Nelson who refused to use HMS Victory for any of
>the shots on the grounds that "it didn't look right". I believe that
>they eventually wandered up to the Cuty Sark or somewhere to get that
>all important air of "authenticity".
Cutty Sark? An extreme clipper with an iron frame? Fagh!
Ray Radlein
>
> Ray Radlein wrote:
> >
> > John Richards wrote:
> > >
> > > Spoiler Space
> > > In the TV film someone knocked him over the head and showed up in
> > > his place.
> >
> > You have *got* to be joking. Ugh. That utterly ruins the whole thing.
>
> Yeah, that's what I thought too. It also indicates a certain lack of
> understanding on behalf of the writer as to the way that an Officer
> and a Gentleman is expected to behave (at least at the end of the 18th
> Century). It turned out that they were saving up the duel in a rematch
> for the climax at the ending when Hornblower is saved by Captain Pelew
> shooting his opponent at long range with a musket.
Oh dear. I shall have to figure out a way to gently warn my brother and
sister about this, without turning their stomachs entirely.
Ulrika
In article <363a5c9f...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>Judging from photographs,
>Constitution also has the diagonal whatchamacallits that Jack Aubrey
>waxed so lyrical over when Dr. Maturin bought Surprise out of service
>and refitted her.
Yes, I think she has. There was a piece on Morning Edition last
summer about the Constitution -- she's been being refitted and
crews are being retrained to sail her properly, because she's
supposed to sail to New York harbor to ring in the Millenium
(by which, alas, they appear to mean the year 2000 -- so it goes).
Among other fitting details, they mentioned that the refitters had
gone back to the original drawings and replaced some internal
diagonal bracing that had been taken out at some intervening
point. The engineers were excitedly surprised that these bracings
proved to be crucial to giving the hull the stiffness it was meant
to have -- imagine, the shipwrights may have known what they
were doing!
To me the most surprising thing about the segment was that
by the end of it I was crying. Crying out of nostalgia or pride
or fellow feeling for something I'd never done. So last summer
I started to learn sailing.
"Yes, indeed, the Lord is a shoving leopard." -- Rev. W.A. Spooner
** Ulrika O'Brien-...@aol.com**
Maureen Kincaid Speller
Kincaid Speller) (well, actually it was Paul Kincaid) wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Oct 98 16:38:40 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
>wrote:
>
>>I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
>>a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
>>has everyone got by now? I don't suppose we know where Maureen's got
>>to at a book a month, but how about the rest of you?
>>
>Currently, waiting at home in a neat little pile all ready for her,
>Maureen has: The Ionian Mission, Treason's Harbour, The Far Side of
>the World, The Reverse of the Medal, The Letter of Marque, The
>Thirteen Gun Salute and The Nutmeg of Consolation.
>
>I reckon that should keep her busy until Christmas.
>
Now here's a dilemma. Paul kept buying the books for me on a monthly
basis, while I was away, but I really still want to read just one a
month, or least not gobble the books one after another. Maybe two a
month?
While I was in Costa Mesa, Ulrika discovered a really neat book
produced by Barnes and Noble, which handily shows diagrams of sail
arrangements on vessels of all shapes and sizes, and many other things
to do with ships. Naturally, we each bought a copy. Mine is now in yet
another box in a ship on the Atlantic.
Maureen
Maureen Kincaid Speller
Folkestone, UK
m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk & http://www.acnestis.demon.co.uk/
S.S.Prince
the library where I clerk, I ordered _The Hundred Day ... and it didn't
come, and it didn't come, and then then new director took over. But at
last it's here, and I nabbed it right off. What's that sound-- bwa-ha-ha
or something like that... I was pleased with it.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
S. S. Prince * in northern New York * VIJAY for TAFF
http://world.std.com/~ssprince and sspr...@world.std.com but
more often known as sspr...@northnet.org
Doug Wickstrom
stream to say:
>
>In article <363a5c9f...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, xnims...@aol.com
>(Doug Wickstrom) writes:
>
>>Judging from photographs,
>>Constitution also has the diagonal whatchamacallits that Jack Aubrey
>>waxed so lyrical over when Dr. Maturin bought Surprise out of service
>>and refitted her.
>
>Yes, I think she has. There was a piece on Morning Edition last
>summer about the Constitution -- she's been being refitted and
>crews are being retrained to sail her properly, because she's
>supposed to sail to New York harbor to ring in the Millenium
>(by which, alas, they appear to mean the year 2000 -- so it goes).
Constitution actually went to sea under sail last year, for her own
bicentennial celebration. The Navy photo library site,
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/misc/constitution/sail-pix.html
and the ship's official home page
http://www.navy.mil/homepages/constitution/
have a large collection of photos, some taken from the deck of the USS
Ramage. (Named after V. Adm Lawson Ramage, not Captain Lord Nicholas
Ramage. Sigh.) For a virtual tour of the ship, including a view of
the diagonal whatchamacallits, go to
http://www.oldironsides.com/con08.html
though you'll need Quicktime 3.0 for the panoramic views of the spar
deck and Shockwave to load and fire the 24-pounder long gun.
Oh, yes. It is just 201 years this month since Constitution's keel
first tasted salt water.
gra...@lara.on.ca
mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
[about :Master and Commander:]
>That is, if the first book is a lox, why did anyone else bother to
>find out that the rest were better?
It would appear to be the inescapable conclusion that your opinion of
the characters as they are presented in that first book is not
universal.
I like Napoleonic naval warfare stories; I kept going becuase this was
an interesting one.
I'm in some danger of stopping becuase the pattern of events is
getting wretchedly predictable in certain respects, but I made it to
:The Commodore: and quite enjoyed them all; I might just have read too
fast for proper series appreciation.
If you're willing to be a complete heretic about order, you could try
reading :The Ionian Mission: and see what you think of it.
--
"But how powerful, how stimulating to the very faculty which produced
it, was the invention of the adjective: no spell or incantation in
Faerie is more potent." -- "On Fairy-Stories", J.R.R. Tolkien
Jo Walton
> If you're willing to be a complete heretic about order, you could try
> reading :The Ionian Mission: and see what you think of it.
Whyever that one?
Rich Horton
wrote:
>In article <71bjk3$mtl$1...@lara.on.ca> gra...@lara.on.ca writes:
>
>> If you're willing to be a complete heretic about order, you could try
>> reading :The Ionian Mission: and see what you think of it.
>
>Whyever that one?
I guess my view would be that _H. M. S. Surprise_ is the most ... most
... most full, that's the word, of the books. For another try,
_Desolation Island_ has some of the most desperate adventure. For
Americans, I think _The Fortune of War_ is an interesting choice.
_Ionian Mission_? I can't say why Graydon would choose that one. (It
is, as it happens, the first one I bought (saw a used copy right after
reading enough reccomendations to convince me I needed to try the
series, but then saw the light and decided to start at #1).)
--
Rich Horton | rrho...@concentric.net
"I am an excellent cook, and anyway when I am fifty I will probably
prefer the breakfast to the girl anyway." - W. M. Spackman
mike weber
-0500,
:
>In article <3636b9cf....@news.mindspring.com>,
>mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
>[about :Master and Commander:]
>>That is, if the first book is a lox, why did anyone else bother to
>>find out that the rest were better?
>
>It would appear to be the inescapable conclusion that your opinion of
>the characters as they are presented in that first book is not
>universal.
>
responding to Gary's contention ((paraphrased)) that virtually
everyone says the first book wasn't very good.
>I like Napoleonic naval warfare stories; I kept going becuase this was
>an interesting one.
>
>I'm in some danger of stopping becuase the pattern of events is
>getting wretchedly predictable in certain respects, but I made it to
>:The Commodore: and quite enjoyed them all; I might just have read too
>fast for proper series appreciation.
I had thaty problem witht the Lovejoy-the-divvy stories; they're a
little too pattern-bound, and after i read about four in a quick
succession, i can't read anymore...
>
>If you're willing to be a complete heretic about order, you could try
>reading :The Ionian Mission: and see what you think of it.
I may do that, if i can find it relatively inexpensively...
Marilee J. Layman
(Maureen Kincaid Speller) wrote:
>Now here's a dilemma.
Welcome back, Maureen!
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
relm...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
*New* Web site: http://www.webmoose.com/owc/
AOL keyword: BOOKs > Books Community > The Other*Worlds*Cafe (listbox)
Maureen Kincaid Speller
Layman) wrote:
>In <3639e3df...@news.demon.co.uk>, m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk
>(Maureen Kincaid Speller) wrote:
>
>
>>Now here's a dilemma.
>
>Welcome back, Maureen!
Thanks. It's good to be home, and on rasff regularly again.
Betsy Perry
>produced by Barnes and Noble, which handily shows diagrams of sail
>arrangements on vessels of all shapes and sizes, and many other things
>to do with ships. Naturally, we each bought a copy. Mine is now in yet
>another box in a ship on the Atlantic.
This raises another issue: How many people are inspired to
pursue all O'Brian's references? I was happy, when reading the
series, to identify with Maturin, bumbling blithely over the ship and
completely failing to understand the finer points of ship's
architecture and sea-battles.
My husband started _Master and Commander_ and immediately moved the
Shorter OED and our atlas to his side of the bed. He was immensely
pleased to get the 2nd edition of _A Sea of Words_ for his birthday,
and has since added _Harbors and High Seas_ to the stack. (For those
who don't know them, _A Sea of Words_ is a dictionary of unfamiliar
words used in O'Brian, and _Harbors and High Seas_ is a collection of
maps related to Aubrey and Maturin's various journeys.)
Now that we've got the reference books, I am sorely tempted to reread,
picking up on all the bits I missed the first time. But it never
occurred to me that this was a problem until I watched my husband
tackle the series.
--
Elizabeth Hanes Perry bet...@vnet.net
Rachael M. Lininger
On 2 Nov 1998, Betsy Perry wrote:
>This raises another issue: How many people are inspired to
>pursue all O'Brian's references? I was happy, when reading the
>series, to identify with Maturin, bumbling blithely over the ship and
>completely failing to understand the finer points of ship's
>architecture and sea-battles.
I love figuring things out; I do without references. Sometimes it's
annoying but it's lots of fun, too. (Kinda like reading Donaldson at a
ridiculously young age without a dictionary. I didn't like stopping
the reading, but I thought working out what the words meant was fun.)
Not that it matters at the moment. I'm not allowed to read O'Brian
until after my baccalaureate (which won't be until May). It's a _long_
series, and not particularly fast reading--all that figuring out
what's going on, because I know absolutely nothing about boats--and
I've only read the first one. If I started, I wouldn't stop, and I'd
really like to graduate this year <knock wood>.
Of course, when I've caught up, in a year or two, I might go to the
references and see how well I understood. When I'm in the mood to
laugh at myself.
Rachael
--
Rachael M. Lininger | "And therfore, whoso list it nat yheere,
lininger@ | Turne over the leef and chese another tale."
virtu.sar.usf.edu | Early Internet Advice (Geoff Chaucer)
Jo Walton
bet...@katie.vnet.net "Betsy Perry" writes:
> This raises another issue: How many people are inspired to
> pursue all O'Brian's references? I was happy, when reading the
> series, to identify with Maturin, bumbling blithely over the ship and
> completely failing to understand the finer points of ship's
> architecture and sea-battles.
Me too.
Though I did refer to someone as my "particular friend" the other day.
I might carry on doing that, it got an odd look but as the person I
said it to has read O'Brian it worked as well as anything to convey
the relationship I wanted to convey, and better than anything I've
previously said to attempt to convey that.
I've now re-read them all consecutively and in the right order. It
was good.
I put down :The Yellow Admiral: and immediately read :Dragon: in
about two hours on Saturday morning, following which I've been
reading :Starlight 2: very slowly and writing in between. Gosh
that's a powerful anthology, quite up to the impact of the first
one. Wow.
James Nicoll
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I put down :The Yellow Admiral: and immediately read :Dragon: in
>about two hours on Saturday morning, following which I've been
>reading :Starlight 2: very slowly and writing in between. Gosh
>that's a powerful anthology, quite up to the impact of the first
>one. Wow.
If by some chance you're hankering for several hundred pages
of bitterness, try William Goldman's (yes, *that* Goldman) _The
Season_, a look at [among other things] Broadway in one year of
the 1960s.
--
"[...] it's been about 12 years now that I've been singing this dumb song. You
know, it's amazing that somebody could get away with singing a song this dumb
for that long. [...] what's more amazing than that is that somebody could make
a living singing a song this dumb for that many years. But, that's America."
Robert Sneddon
Rachael M. Lininger <lini...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> writes
>
>Not that it matters at the moment. I'm not allowed to read O'Brian
>until after my baccalaureate (which won't be until May). It's a _long_
>series, and not particularly fast reading--all that figuring out
>what's going on, because I know absolutely nothing about boats
They're called "ships". Boats are hoisted on and off ships.
--
To reply by email, send to nojay (at) public (period) antipope (dot) org
Robert Sneddon
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>In article <910035...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
>Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>I put down :The Yellow Admiral: and immediately read :Dragon: in
>>about two hours on Saturday morning, following which I've been
>>reading :Starlight 2: very slowly and writing in between. Gosh
>>that's a powerful anthology, quite up to the impact of the first
>>one. Wow.
>
> If by some chance you're hankering for several hundred pages
>of bitterness, try William Goldman's (yes, *that* Goldman) _The
>Season_, a look at [among other things] Broadway in one year of
>the 1960s.
Please, that's _well-informed_ bitterness, including much detailed
discussion of exactly why all the stuff that goes wrong goes wrong, and how
illegal things are done. Excellent book (which I sought out after noticing
"Ed McBain" crediting it for being the source of the scam used in McBain's
ICE.). Not that I wouldn't have picked it up anyway -- I like Goldman's
writing.
More bitterness in his movie book, too. (Adventures in the Skin Trade?
Film Trade? Can't recall.)
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210
===============================================================================
Doug Wickstrom
<no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> modulated the bit stream to say:
>In article <Pine.GSO.4.02.98110...@virtu.sar.usf.edu>,
>Rachael M. Lininger <lini...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> writes
>>
>>Not that it matters at the moment. I'm not allowed to read O'Brian
>>until after my baccalaureate (which won't be until May). It's a _long_
>>series, and not particularly fast reading--all that figuring out
>>what's going on, because I know absolutely nothing about boats
>
> They're called "ships". Boats are hoisted on and off ships.
And "ship" is further used as a technical term to refer to a vessel of
at least three masts, and square-rigged on all masts. Though "barky,"
a corruption of barque, another technical term for a vessel of at
least three masts, but fore-and-aft-rigged on the aftmost, or "mizzen"
mast, was often used as slang for any ship at all.
We are a store of nautical information, we are, so come broadside to
the wind and back your foretopsail and we'll soon have you sharper
than a pursor's pencil.
Why, you may eventually come to understand the differences between
pinks, snows, brigs, and hermaphrodite brigs.
A^3
: In article <Pine.GSO.4.02.98110...@virtu.sar.usf.edu>,
: Rachael M. Lininger <lini...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> writes
: >
: >Not that it matters at the moment. I'm not allowed to read O'Brian
: >until after my baccalaureate (which won't be until May). It's a _long_
: >series, and not particularly fast reading--all that figuring out
: >what's going on, because I know absolutely nothing about boats
: They're called "ships". Boats are hoisted on and off ships.
Or go under water (with the ability and intention of coming back up).
--
A^3 (Andrew A Adams), Chair, 2Kon: Eastercon 2000 (21st-24th April)
(British National Convention) at the Central Hotel, Glasgow.
snail-mail: 2Kon, 30 Wooburn Terrace, St Andrews KY16 8BA
Web: http://www-theory.cs.st-and.ac.uk/2Kon
e-mail: 2k...@dcs.st-and.ac.uk
James Nicoll
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr <win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
>In article <91005096...@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
>>In article <910035...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
>>Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>I put down :The Yellow Admiral: and immediately read :Dragon: in
>>>about two hours on Saturday morning, following which I've been
>>>reading :Starlight 2: very slowly and writing in between. Gosh
>>>that's a powerful anthology, quite up to the impact of the first
>>>one. Wow.
>>
>> If by some chance you're hankering for several hundred pages
>>of bitterness, try William Goldman's (yes, *that* Goldman) _The
>>Season_, a look at [among other things] Broadway in one year of
>>the 1960s.
>
>Please, that's _well-informed_ bitterness, including much detailed
>discussion of exactly why all the stuff that goes wrong goes wrong, and how
>illegal things are done. Excellent book (which I sought out after noticing
>"Ed McBain" crediting it for being the source of the scam used in McBain's
>ICE.). Not that I wouldn't have picked it up anyway -- I like Goldman's
>writing.
>
>More bitterness in his movie book, too. (Adventures in the Skin Trade?
>Film Trade? Can't recall.)
>
by William Rostler.
Goldman's _Hype and Glory),about the year he judged at Cannes
and at the Miss America contest is really, really bitter because
not only is he still Goldman, he's in the process of getting a
divorce.
David G. Bell
no...@nospam.demon.co.uk "Robert Sneddon" writes:
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.02.98110...@virtu.sar.usf.edu>,
> Rachael M. Lininger <lini...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> writes
> >
> >Not that it matters at the moment. I'm not allowed to read O'Brian
> >until after my baccalaureate (which won't be until May). It's a _long_
> >series, and not particularly fast reading--all that figuring out
> >what's going on, because I know absolutely nothing about boats
>
> They're called "ships". Boats are hoisted on and off ships.
<Maturin>
Then, sir, I must be a boat.
</Maturin>
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Marcus L. Rowland
<jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> writes
>>More bitterness in his movie book, too. (Adventures in the Skin Trade?
>>Film Trade? Can't recall.)
>>
> _Film Trade.
A book notable for his account of how the producers of _The Right Stuff_
were ignoring all his ideas, and wanted to put in all that boring stuff
about Chuck Yeager and flying that wouldn't really interest anyone...
--
Marcus L. Rowland
http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/ http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>In article <91010675...@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>, James Nicoll
><jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> writes
>>>More bitterness in his movie book, too. (Adventures in the Skin Trade?
>>>Film Trade? Can't recall.)
>>>
>> _Film Trade.
>
>A book notable for his account of how the producers of _The Right Stuff_
>were ignoring all his ideas, and wanted to put in all that boring stuff
>about Chuck Yeager and flying that wouldn't really interest anyone...
Long time since I read this, but I thought what got up Goldman's nose
was his belief that Kaufman (the director) thought that Yeager had the
Right Stuff and the astronauts _didn't_.
Gary Farber
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
[. . .]
: _Film Trade. _Adventures in the Skin Trade_ would have been
: by William Rostler.
Rotsler.
[. . . .]
--
Copyright 1998 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US
Morris M. Keesan
>And "ship" is further used as a technical term to refer to a vessel of
>at least three masts, and square-rigged on all masts. Though "barky,"
>a corruption of barque, another technical term for a vessel of at
>least three masts, but fore-and-aft-rigged on the aftmost, or "mizzen"
>mast, was often used as slang for any ship at all.
And remember, when commanded by a post captain, even a sloop is a
"ship".
--
Morris M. Keesan -- kee...@world.std.com
--
Doug Wickstrom
Keesan) modulated the bit stream to say:
Unless it is a brig. Or a corvette.
mike weber
on Tue, 03 Nov 98 07:58:43 GMT,
:
from Devid Eddings: Ships have Captains.
mike weber
Nov 1998 15:25:59 GMT,
:
>In article <009CEA1C...@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,
>Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr <win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
>>More bitterness in his movie book, too. (Adventures in the Skin Trade?
>>Film Trade? Can't recall.)
>>
> _Film Trade. _Adventures in the Skin Trade_ would have been
>by William Rostler.
>
I just ran across a printed reference to this book, and i think it was
"Screen Trade".
mike weber
is alleged to have said, on Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:19:42 GMT,
:
>In article <CPonVCAd...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland" <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>A book notable for his account of how the producers of _The Right Stuff_
>>were ignoring all his ideas, and wanted to put in all that boring stuff
>>about Chuck Yeager and flying that wouldn't really interest anyone...
>
>Long time since I read this, but I thought what got up Goldman's nose
>was his belief that Kaufman (the director) thought that Yeager had the
>Right Stuff and the astronauts _didn't_.
>
A not-unreasonable opinion, actually...
David G. Bell
emsh...@aol.com "mike weber" writes:
> win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")
> is alleged to have said, on Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:19:42 GMT,
> :
> >In article <CPonVCAd...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland"
> <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> >>A book notable for his account of how the producers of _The Right Stuff_
> >>were ignoring all his ideas, and wanted to put in all that boring stuff
> >>about Chuck Yeager and flying that wouldn't really interest anyone...
> >
> >Long time since I read this, but I thought what got up Goldman's nose
> >was his belief that Kaufman (the director) thought that Yeager had the
> >Right Stuff and the astronauts _didn't_.
> >
> A not-unreasonable opinion, actually...
Since the Mercury astronauts were test pilots, I wouldn't care to make
distinctions of that sort. But the film seems to clearly state that the
astronauts got public rewards for their courage that other test-pilots
did not.
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")
>is alleged to have said, on Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:19:42 GMT,
>:
>>In article <CPonVCAd...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland" <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>>A book notable for his account of how the producers of _The Right Stuff_
>>>were ignoring all his ideas, and wanted to put in all that boring stuff
>>>about Chuck Yeager and flying that wouldn't really interest anyone...
>>
>>Long time since I read this, but I thought what got up Goldman's nose
>>was his belief that Kaufman (the director) thought that Yeager had the
>>Right Stuff and the astronauts _didn't_.
>>
>A not-unreasonable opinion, actually...
This is clearly a point on which reasonable people can differ, except that
it isn't altogether reasonable even to discuss it. However, whether or not
Kaufman's opinion was reasonable is irrelevant; Goldman felt he couldn't
work on the project with someone who didn't share his own opinion about
that central question, whatever it was, and I don't think that's an
unreasonable position either.
Also, reading the book gave me the impression that Tom Wolfe thought they
_did_ have the Right Stuff, although he might himself not think all that
highly of the Right Stuff itself. He has Chuck Yeager pointing out that
the difference between the monkeys and the astronauts is that the
astronauts know what they're getting into; Wolfe's showing this icon of the
Right Stuff taking the astronaut's part lends authority to the idea that
the astronauts do have the stuff, or at least that somebody who ought to
know thinks so. [This may not reflect Yeager's actual opinion; I'm talking
about Wolfe's choice to use this incident.]
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> I know some of you have read :The Hundred Days: already, but there are
> a lot of people who were just reading through the series - how far
> has everyone got by now?
Been interesting reading this thread. I started this spring reading
the series (nearly) in order and I've finished to *The Ionian Mission*
(what's that, number eight?).
In August I found a jape about copy-editing embedded in one of the
books. I immediately pointed it out to Teresa and Patrick. (I love
playing the nitpicker.) I'll share:
==========================
Subject: Copy-editor's in-joke in *Desolation Island*
Teresa and Patrick:
I have now read a number of O'Brian's novels, thanks in part to your
enthusiastic recommendations.
This week I discovered a subtle in-joke about copy-editing in
*Desolation Island*. Naturally, I thought of TNH. I wonder whether
this is something fresh, or whether it's well-known among O'Brian's
fans?
I discovered this by reading *DI* and only then reading *HMS
Surprise*, the fifth and third books in the series, both in old
hardbound editions from the public library.
On the eponymous island, Dr. Maturin is discussing with Mrs. Wogan the
specimens he's collecting. She confuses "cryptogram" (a puzzle) with
"cryptogam" (a plant which reproduces by spores), and he instructs her
about the distinction.
Later, reading *HMS Surprise*, at the end of a chapter where Sir
Joseph is about to send Maturin on a mission to the Far East,
the doctor proposes to publish dull papers on "the cryptograms of
Kamschatka."
My hypothesis: O'Brian ran afoul of someone who corrected "cryptogams"
to "cryptograms" in the earlier novel (the dastard!), and had his
revenge in *Desolation Island*.
Probably if I had not read the novels in the wrong order, I wouldn't
have caught this. Also, one wonders whether the gaffe was repaired in
later editions of *Surprise*; if so, the majority of 1990s readers
probably would have missed the joke.
So, is this old news?
___ O~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/
/ / - ~ -~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
/__// \ (_) (_) / | \
| | Bill Higgins Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
\ / Bitnet: Sic transit gloria mundi
- - Internet: HIG...@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
~ SPAN/Hepnet/Physnet: 43011::HIGGINS
Rich Horton
Beam Jockey) wrote:
>Probably if I had not read the novels in the wrong order, I wouldn't
>have caught this. Also, one wonders whether the gaffe was repaired in
>later editions of *Surprise*; if so, the majority of 1990s readers
>probably would have missed the joke.
>
Indeed, it has been corrected in my 1996 HarperCollins (UK) paperback
edition of _H.M.S. Surprise_.
--
Rich Horton | rrho...@concentric.net
Web Page: www.sff.net/people/richard.horton (New reviews of
_Halfway Human_ and _The Star Fraction_ and _Deepdrive_.)
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>In article <36417dff....@news.mindspring.com>
>
>> win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")
>> is alleged to have said, on Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:19:42 GMT,
>> :
>> >In article <CPonVCAd...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland"
>> <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
>> >>A book notable for his account of how the producers of _The Right Stuff_
>> >>were ignoring all his ideas, and wanted to put in all that boring stuff
>> >>about Chuck Yeager and flying that wouldn't really interest anyone...
>> >
>> >Long time since I read this, but I thought what got up Goldman's nose
>> >was his belief that Kaufman (the director) thought that Yeager had the
>> >Right Stuff and the astronauts _didn't_.
>> >
>> A not-unreasonable opinion, actually...
>
>distinctions of that sort. But the film seems to clearly state that the
>astronauts got public rewards for their courage that other test-pilots
>did not.
And so does the book and so do the facts. I think this is fairly
inarguable, and also not the actual point.
The Right Stuff isn't merely courage. It's also something like competence
and grace under pressure allied with incredible self-confidence.
(Believing that whatever the aircraft does, you can pull it out - and
generally being able to.)
This is on a different axis than the courage required to get strapped into
a capsule, follow a preplanned trajectory where you have no real chance of
influencing the flight. Especially at the Mercury/Gemini phase, the
astronaut business wasn't much like the pilot business. (I presume
piloting LEMs, etc, is rather more like the pilot business -- and that
whole Apollo 13 business really shows the test pilot aspect at work.)
That's what that whole business with getting a window put into the Mercury
capsule was about -- so the astronauts could feel more like pilots. They
may have known that they had the Right Stuff, but they weren't getting a
chance to display it.