When even a Republican can see it....
Martha Adams
Planet' and 'The Marching Morons.' When a social issue
becomes so large and immediate that even a Republican
can see it, that's too late. Examples come to mind.
Global climate change: we had a window to do something
about that after the signals came out -- ten to twenty years
ago. Too late now.
What we're getting now in time to respond to some effect,
is *population*. It won't happen that resources enough
exist in this world, and technological answers will (almost
magically) appear in time, that our country's population
sees anything but falling standards of living. Indeed, we
can see it now in the severely diminished quality of
medical care today, in that inflation that "isn't" going on,
in the lines at our Postal (euphemistically) Service
windows, prices of gas, oil, and food (with contamination
issues) and etc.
What a great time to be a science fiction writer! By the
way, I'm reading a truly great book by Bruce Sterling:
"Tomorrow Now".
Cheers -- Martha Adams [rasff 2007 Apr 25]
Keith F. Lynch
> Global climate change: we had a window to do something about that
> after the signals came out -- ten to twenty years ago. Too late now.
Too late? Does that mean it's okay to ignore it? What do you suggest
should have been done ten to twenty years ago? Why shouldn't whatever
that is be done today?
> What we're getting now in time to respond to some effect, is
> *population*.
Yes, it is worrisome that it looks like population will peak not much
higher than it is today, and then drop at an ever-increasing rate.
How are we ever supposed to colonize space, or even get decent
economies of scale, without a large population base? What do you
suggest be done about it?
> Indeed, we can see it now in the severely diminished quality of
> medical care today,
Aren't life expectancies in the US higher than ever before? The
problem isn't with the quality of medical care (unless you expect
it to provide immortality), but with its affordability.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Karl Johanson
> Yes, it is worrisome that it looks like population *will* (emphasis
> added) peak not much
> higher than it is today, and then drop at an ever-increasing rate.
Time machine? Can you get stock tips as well?
Karl Johanson
David Friedman
"Karl Johanson" <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
On the evidence, it's at least as plausible a prediction as the one in
the other direction. And he did say "looks like."
As countries became developed, birth rates fell. Currently European
birth rates are mostly below replacement. I think U.S. is about at
replacement, but that partly reflects a lot of fairly recent immigrants
who haven't yet fully adapted to their new environment. So why do you
find Keith's prediction implausible?
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Karl Johanson
> In article <UjSXh.127752$DE1.30178@pd7urf2no>,
> "Karl Johanson" <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote
>>
>> > Yes, it is worrisome that it looks like population *will* (emphasis
>> > added) peak not much
>> > higher than it is today, and then drop at an ever-increasing rate.
>>
>> Time machine? Can you get stock tips as well?
>
> On the evidence, it's at least as plausible a prediction as the one in
> the other direction. And he did say "looks like."
>
> As countries became developed, birth rates fell. Currently European
> birth rates are mostly below replacement. I think U.S. is about at
> replacement, but that partly reflects a lot of fairly recent
> immigrants
> who haven't yet fully adapted to their new environment. So why do you
> find Keith's prediction implausible?
I found it undemonstrated, not implausable.
Karl Johanson
David T. Bilek
>
>Today's world reminds me of background of Pohl's 'Gravy
>Planet' and 'The Marching Morons.' When a social issue
>becomes so large and immediate that even a Republican
>can see it, that's too late. Examples come to mind.
>
>Global climate change: we had a window to do something
>about that after the signals came out -- ten to twenty years
>ago. Too late now.
Ten years ago, maybe. Twenty years ago there's no way there was
enough good data on global warming to warrant a huge response.
>
>What we're getting now in time to respond to some effect,
>is *population*. It won't happen that resources enough
>exist in this world, and technological answers will (almost
>magically) appear in time, that our country's population
>sees anything but falling standards of living. Indeed, we
>can see it now in the severely diminished quality of
>medical care today, in that inflation that "isn't" going on,
>in the lines at our Postal (euphemistically) Service
>windows, prices of gas, oil, and food (with contamination
>issues) and etc.
>
Are you worried about population increasing or decreasing? Falling
birthrates are much more of a problem than the reverse in most of the
industrialized world, and overall world population should start
decreasing real soon now. But it kind of reads like you're afraid of
overpopulation.
-David
David Friedman
David T. Bilek <dtb...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> Are you worried about population increasing or decreasing? Falling
> birthrates are much more of a problem than the reverse in most of the
> industrialized world, and overall world population should start
> decreasing real soon now. But it kind of reads like you're afraid of
> overpopulation.
>
At a slight tangent, I find it striking how fast we go from confident
proclamations that "the problem with the world is that poor people are
hungry" to equally confident proclamations that the problem is that they
are fat, or from worries about underpopulation (c. 1930's) to worries
about overpopulation to renewed worries about underpopulation.
Then there's global cooling vs global warming.
Which doesn't tell us which of the worries are about real problems, but
does suggest a pattern of exaggerated confidence in the worriers.
Paul F. Dietz
> Then there's global cooling vs global warming.
One a meme propagated at the time mostly by Newsweek and some
popsci writers, the other a consensus of most of the professional
climatology community with extensive primary literature
and perhaps the most intensely reviewed periodic reports
ever in science.
Yeah, they're entirely comparable.
Paul
Old Toby
> At a slight tangent, I find it striking how fast we go from confident
> proclamations that "the problem with the world is that poor people are
> hungry" to equally confident proclamations that the problem is that they
> are fat, or from worries about underpopulation (c. 1930's) to worries
> about overpopulation to renewed worries about underpopulation.
You mean, from "there won't be enough white people" to "there will be
too many non-white people" back to "there won't be enough white people?"
Two sides of the same coin, I think. We've already seen it start to
shift toward "non-white people are getting too rich."
Which is not to say that underpopulation won't be a problem for
certain countries, or that the rapid growth in China's consumption
won't provide environmental and resource challenges, but the doom
and gloom types often have disturbing racial subtexts to their
message.
Old Toby
Least Known Dog on the Net
James Nicoll
>
>What we're getting now in time to respond to some effect,
>is *population*. It won't happen that resources enough
>exist in this world, and technological answers will (almost
>magically) appear in time, that our country's population
>sees anything but falling standards of living. Indeed, we
>can see it now in the severely diminished quality of
>medical care today
That has nothing to do with the resources that are
available but more to do with the fact that Americans are
remarkably inept for a 1st world nation at using the medical
resources that they do have. Unfortunately, nothing can be
done about this by individual Americans save emigration
(If only because for a sufficiently large part of the US
population, the inequities and inefficiencies are the whole
point).
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Karl Johanson
>>
>>Today's world reminds me of background of Pohl's 'Gravy
>>Planet' and 'The Marching Morons.' When a social issue
>>becomes so large and immediate that even a Republican
>>can see it, that's too late. Examples come to mind.
>>
>>Global climate change: we had a window to do something
>>about that after the signals came out -- ten to twenty years
>>ago. Too late now.
> Ten years ago, maybe. Twenty years ago there's no way there was
> enough good data on global warming to warrant a huge response.
20 years ago we had good data that nuclear was a better option than
coal, regardless of any infrared reflecting, or absorbing properties of
Carbon dioxide.
Karl Johanson
Karl Johanson
> Then there's global cooling vs global warming.
Global cooling was discussed and analysed as a possibility in the 70's;
although Jerry Pournelle at Worldcon 06 repeated the meme that there was
a 'scientific consensus' in the 70's that were were headed into an ice
age. I asked what he meant by 'scientific consensus' in that case, and
was it like the current scientific consensus on global warming, as (i.e.
the peer reviewed science journal articles pretty much in agreement). He
said all the panels at the science conferences he went to discussed what
we'd do if there was an ice age. Even if it were true about that many
panels, discussing a possibility is different than having thousands of
peer reviewed science journal articles in agreement on something.
(I note that the methods of science in general & peer review in specific
aren't perfect. They are different than panel discussions on
possibilities though. I talked on a science panel last year about the
possibility of a large asteroid hitting the Earth. A valid topic for
discussion, but I wouldn't expect the discussion (or even dozens of
them) to be mistaken for any kind of scientific consensus that a large
asteroid is about to hit us.)
Karl Johanson
Keith F. Lynch
> 20 years ago we had good data that nuclear was a better option than
> coal, regardless of any infrared reflecting, or absorbing properties
> of Carbon dioxide.
Oddly enough, the people who are most against global warming are also
the ones who are most against nuclear power.
Karl Johanson
>> 20 years ago we had good data that nuclear was a better option than
>> coal, regardless of any infrared reflecting, or absorbing properties
>> of Carbon dioxide.
>
> Oddly enough, the people who are most against global warming are also
> the ones who are most against nuclear power.
Doesn't seem odd. Nuclear could eliminate the need for fossil fuels for
electricity generation. Doesn't seem odd that those who make terrabucks
on fossil fuels don't want that.
Karl Johanson
Karl Johanson
Woop. I think I mis-interpreted your 'against'. I interpreted it as
'being against the notion that global warming is happening', as apposed
to 'not wanting global warming'.
Karl Johanson
dwight...@gmail.com
> "Karl Johanson" <karljohan...@shaw.ca> wrote
>
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote
> >>> 20 years ago we had good data that nuclear was a better option than
> >>> coal, regardless of any infrared reflecting, or absorbing properties
> >>> of Carbon dioxide.
>
> >> Oddly enough, the people who are most against global warming are also
> >> the ones who are most against nuclear power.
>
> > Doesn't seem odd. Nuclear could eliminate the need for fossil fuels
> > for electricity generation. Doesn't seem odd that those who make
> > terrabucks on fossil fuels don't want that.
>
> Woop. I think I mis-interpreted your 'against'. I interpreted it as
> 'being against the notion that global warming is happening', as apposed
> to 'not wanting global warming'.
>
> Karl Johanson
I wonder what metric he is using to determine who is 'most against'
global warrming. Probably the knee-jerk metric.
mark...@earthlink.net
Whatever metric that allows Lynch to pretend he know the innermost
thoughts of other people.
"Oddly enough, the people who are most against global warming are also
the ones who are most against nuclear power." is a strawman argument.
Keith F. Lynch
> "dwight.thi...@gmail.com" <dwight.thi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder what metric he is using to determine who is 'most against'
>> global warrming. Probably the knee-jerk metric.
> Whatever metric that allows Lynch to pretend he know the innermost
> thoughts of other people.
I know the outermost thoughts of other people, i.e. those thoughts
that they loudly proclaim in public.
The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
global warming are the environmentalists.
The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
be banned are the environmentalists.
Karl Johanson
> <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> "dwight.thi...@gmail.com" <dwight.thi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder what metric he is using to determine who is 'most against'
>>> global warrming. Probably the knee-jerk metric.
>
>> Whatever metric that allows Lynch to pretend he know the innermost
>> thoughts of other people.
>
> I know the outermost thoughts of other people, i.e. those thoughts
> that they loudly proclaim in public.
>
> The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
> global warming are the environmentalists.
>
> The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
> be banned are the environmentalists.
Quite a few of us environmentalists are for nuclear energy.
Karl Johanson
dwight...@gmail.com
> <markr1...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "dwight.thi...@gmail.com" <dwight.thi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I wonder what metric he is using to determine who is 'most against'
> >> global warrming. Probably the knee-jerk metric.
> > Whatever metric that allows Lynch to pretend he know the innermost
> > thoughts of other people.
>
> I know the outermost thoughts of other people, i.e. those thoughts
> that they loudly proclaim in public.
>
> The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
> global warming are the environmentalists.
>
> The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
> be banned are the environmentalists.
You do realize that what you just said has absolutely nothing to do
with what you asserted in your earlier post, right?
mark...@earthlink.net
> <markr1...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "dwight.thi...@gmail.com" <dwight.thi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I wonder what metric he is using to determine who is 'most against'
> >> global warrming. Probably the knee-jerk metric.
> > Whatever metric that allows Lynch to pretend he know the innermost
> > thoughts of other people.
>
> I know the outermost thoughts of other people, i.e. those thoughts
> that they loudly proclaim in public.
What people? Care to actually quote any specific people?
> The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
> global warming are the environmentalists.
>
> The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
> be banned are the environmentalists.
Again with the political labels about very large groups of people you
don't know. Quote specific people.
mike weber
wrote:
>The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
>global warming are the environmentalists.
>
>The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
>be banned are the environmentalists.
I remember remarking at one time that some of the more rabid
anti-whaling people were also folk-song collectors (and singers) who
loved songs like "Greenland Whale Fisheries" and other whaling songs.
--
mike weber (fairp...@gmail.com)
============================
My Website: http://electronictiger.com
===================================
No use looking for the answers when the questions are in doubt - Fred leBlanc, "The Love of My Life"
David Dyer-Bennet
> On 27 Apr 2007 21:33:19 -0400, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net>
> wrote:
>
>> The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
>> global warming are the environmentalists.
>>
>> The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
>> be banned are the environmentalists.
>
> I remember remarking at one time that some of the more rabid
> anti-whaling people were also folk-song collectors (and singers) who
> loved songs like "Greenland Whale Fisheries" and other whaling songs.
This is not inconsistent; one can love a song without approving of the
continuation of the historic practice it documents.
mike weber
wrote:
>mike weber wrote:
>> I remember remarking at one time that some of the more rabid
>> anti-whaling people were also folk-song collectors (and singers) who
>> loved songs like "Greenland Whale Fisheries" and other whaling songs.
>
>This is not inconsistent; one can love a song without approving of the
>continuation of the historic practice it documents.
Oh, i dunno - when you're earnestly writing songs condemning whaling
and such things, it's at least a bit amusing.
I mean, the fact that Strom Thurmond had a mixed-race daughter is
amusing...
Kip Williams
> mike weber wrote:
>> I remember remarking at one time that some of the more rabid
>> anti-whaling people were also folk-song collectors (and singers) who
>> loved songs like "Greenland Whale Fisheries" and other whaling songs.
>
> This is not inconsistent; one can love a song without approving of the
> continuation of the historic practice it documents.
Heh. When I read that, I thought it was because they wanted people to be
able to see what "whales" were. As if they didn't want people having to
ask what they were all the time.
Kip W
David Loewe, Jr.
But, you don't speak loudly in public about it...
--
"I aim to misbehave."
Malcolm Reynolds
Paul Ciszek
In article <f0u88v$9nl$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
>global warming are the environmentalists.
>
>The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
>be banned are the environmentalists.
The people saying they want to make government small enough to drown in
a bathtub are libertarians.
The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
of the government are libertarians.
See how that works?
--
Please reply to: | "One of the hardest parts of my job is to
pciszek at panix dot com | connect Iraq to the War on Terror."
Autoreply is disabled | -- G. W. Bush, 9/7/2006
Paul Ciszek
In article <4632e912$0$966$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net>,
Indeed, fans of comic books used to have make the same argument re crime,
murder, tentacled monsters abducting Earth's fairest daughters, etc.
Paul Ciszek
In article <bf86339d5krggsq7k...@4ax.com>,
mike weber <fairp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:26:33 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>wrote:
>
>>mike weber wrote:
>
>>> I remember remarking at one time that some of the more rabid
>>> anti-whaling people were also folk-song collectors (and singers) who
>>> loved songs like "Greenland Whale Fisheries" and other whaling songs.
>>
>>This is not inconsistent; one can love a song without approving of the
>>continuation of the historic practice it documents.
>
>Oh, i dunno - when you're earnestly writing songs condemning whaling
>and such things, it's at least a bit amusing.
I know of at least one save-the-whales song written in the musical style
of the old whaling songs, "Nantucket Sleighrides" by Robyn Hilliard.
Keith F. Lynch
> The people saying they want to make government small enough to drown
> in a bathtub are libertarians.
> The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the
> power of the government are libertarians.
> See how that works?
No. You followed a true statement with an obviously false statement.
The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
of the government are Republicans. Bush was the Republican candidate
in 2000 and 2004. He has never been the Libertarian candidate.
Keith F. Lynch
Al Gore is against nuclear power. See
http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/05/09/roberts/
And of course he's the best-known advocate of the idea that something
must be done about global warming. I trust I don't need to dig up
evidence that he holds that position?
dwight...@gmail.com
> <markr1...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done
> >> about global warming are the environmentalists.
> >> The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants
> >> should be banned are the environmentalists.
> > Again with the political labels about very large groups of people
> > you don't know. Quote specific people.
>
>
> And of course he's the best-known advocate of the idea that something
> must be done about global warming. I trust I don't need to dig up
> evidence that he holds that position?
Sigh. Let me reproduce the relevant text:
----begin----
Let's turn briefly to some proposed solutions. Nuclear power is
making a big resurgence now, rebranded as a solution to climate
change. What do you think?
I doubt nuclear power will play a much larger role than it does now.
Won't, or shouldn't?
Won't. There are serious problems that have to be solved, and they
are not limited to the long-term waste-storage issue and the
vulnerability-to-terrorist-attack issue. Let's assume for the sake of
argument that both of those problems can be solved.
We still have other issues. For eight years in the White House, every
weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a
civilian reactor program. And if we ever got to the point where we
wanted to use nuclear reactors to back out a lot of coal -- which is
the real issue: coal -- then we'd have to put them in so many places
we'd run that proliferation risk right off the reasonability scale.
And we'd run short of uranium, unless they went to a breeder cycle or
something like it, which would increase the risk of weapons-grade
material being available.
When energy prices go up, the difficulty of projecting demand also
goes up -- uncertainty goes up. So utility executives naturally want
to place their bets for future generating capacity on smaller
increments that are available more quickly, to give themselves
flexibility. Nuclear reactors are the biggest increments, that cost
the most money, and take the most time to build.
In any case, if they can design a new generation [of reactors] that's
manifestly safer, more flexible, etc., it may play some role, but I
don't think it will play a big role.
----end----
I think it's pretty obvious that he didn't say he was against nuclear
power. If anything, he says that utility executives are against it.
This wasn't hard to decipher, Keith.
Karl Johanson
news:f12lgo$hdn$1...@panix1.panix.com...
> <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done
>>> about global warming are the environmentalists.
>
>>> The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants
>>> should be banned are the environmentalists.
>
>> Again with the political labels about very large groups of people
>> you don't know. Quote specific people.
>
> Al Gore is against nuclear power. See
> http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/05/09/roberts/
Your example has him claiming it won't be playing a much larger role
than it is now, not that it shouldn't.
(*Start Quoted article*)
David Roberts : Let's turn briefly to some proposed solutions. Nuclear
power is making a big resurgence now, rebranded as a solution to climate
change. What do you think?
Al Gore: I doubt nuclear power will play a much larger role than it does
now.
David Roberts : Won't, or shouldn't?
Al Gore: Won't. There are serious problems that have to be solved, and
they are not limited to the long-term waste-storage issue and the
vulnerability-to-terrorist-attack issue. Let's assume for the sake of
argument that both of those problems can be solved.
We still have other issues. For eight years in the White House, every
weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a civilian
reactor program. And if we ever got to the point where we wanted to use
nuclear reactors to back out a lot of coal -- which is the real issue:
coal -- then we'd have to put them in so many places we'd run that
proliferation risk right off the reasonability scale. And we'd run short
of uranium, unless they went to a breeder cycle or something like it,
which would increase the risk of weapons-grade material being available.
When energy prices go up, the difficulty of projecting demand also goes
up -- uncertainty goes up. So utility executives naturally want to place
their bets for future generating capacity on smaller increments that are
available more quickly, to give themselves flexibility. Nuclear reactors
are the biggest increments, that cost the most money, and take the most
time to build.
In any case, if they can design a new generation [of reactors] that's
manifestly safer, more flexible, etc., it may play some role, but I
don't think it will play a big role.
(*end quoted article*)
Gore is for it's use, but doesn't think its the best option, for the
reasons he listed. I disagree with most of his reasoning on the
concerns. When Al Gore was VP, his party did nothing to shut down any
nuclear reactors in the US. They were in power during upgrades &
efficiency boosts to US reactors, which added to more electricity than
was generated by every windmill in the world combined. He did nothing to
try to stop it.
Gore's wrong about Uranium supplies though, there's plenty for tens of
thousands of years, even without breeder reactors, and there's about 4
times as much Thorium. Countries make nuclear weapons when they decide
to make nuclear weapons. The two routes are: 'enrich natural Uranium to
weapons grade' (using electricity from any source, nuclear, fossil fuel,
wind, solar, etc.), or breed weapons grade Plutonium in a reactor
designed to produce weapons grade Plutonium. Power plant grade Plutonium
can, in theory, be enriched to weapons grade, or you can change power
plant fuel rods very often, to inefficiently produce weapons grade
Plutonium. In either case, you probably could get far more weapons grade
material from running the reactor as a power plant & using the Power (or
power from windmills) to Enrich Uranium. Uranium bombs tend to be easer
to make as well.
Banning nuclear power plants won't stop the development of nuclear
weapons, any more than banning Lead tire weights will stop the
development of bullets.
As for Gore's comment on 'new generation reactors, we already have them.
The Integral Fast Reactor was a breeder reactor, designed to account for
proliferation concerns. Alas, Ronald Reagan pulled the plug on it. The
Candu 6 & 9 and the ARC (Advanced Candu Reactor) are pretty skookumchuck
designs, with advanced materials and even more passive safety systems
than earlier models. (Candus in Korea have managed over 100% capacity
factors, as the available cooling water turned out to be colder than
expected.) Pebble Bed Moderated Reactors, are extremely efficient, with
impressive design features. The new Westinghouse designs are similarly
impressive. Even the Russian RBMK reactors are better with the safety
upgrades they got after Chernobyl, but I'd suggest the above designs for
new reactors instead.
Karl Johanson
David Friedman
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <f0u88v$9nl$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >
> >The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
> >global warming are the environmentalists.
> >
> >The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
> >be banned are the environmentalists.
>
> The people saying they want to make government small enough to drown in
> a bathtub are libertarians.
>
> The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
> of the government are libertarians.
>
> See how that works?
Except that your second claim isn't true, whereas Keith's is, save that
he should have omitted "the," since there are some environmentalists who
are pro-nuclear, although not many.
I suspect I have more contact with libertarians than you do. In my
experience, most of them are critical of Bush and none of them "approve
of every damn thing ... ."
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
David Friedman
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <4632e912$0$966$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net>,
> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> >mike weber wrote:
> >> On 27 Apr 2007 21:33:19 -0400, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
> >>> global warming are the environmentalists.
> >>>
> >>> The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
> >>> be banned are the environmentalists.
> >>
> >> I remember remarking at one time that some of the more rabid
> >> anti-whaling people were also folk-song collectors (and singers) who
> >> loved songs like "Greenland Whale Fisheries" and other whaling songs.
> >
> >This is not inconsistent; one can love a song without approving of the
> >continuation of the historic practice it documents.
>
> Indeed, fans of comic books used to have make the same argument re crime,
> murder, tentacled monsters abducting Earth's fairest daughters, etc.
You mean they were not in favor of tentacled monsters abducting Earth's
fairest daughters? What sort of monsters did they think should abduct
them?
mike weber
Ciszek) wrote:
>The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
>of the government are libertarians.
>
>See how that works?
When the Libertarian Party held its convention here in Atlanta,
local/nationally syndicated talk radio host Neal Boortz was scheduled
to be a featured speaker.
However, Neal was an early supporter of Bush's War on Sanity in Iraq,
and there was an apparently fairly large movement within the party to
have him disinvited because of that.
Paul Ciszek
In article <f12gvc$odc$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> The people saying they want to make government small enough to drown
>> in a bathtub are libertarians.
>
>> The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the
>> power of the government are libertarians.
>
>> See how that works?
>
>No. You followed a true statement with an obviously false statement.
>The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
>of the government are Republicans. Bush was the Republican candidate
>in 2000 and 2004. He has never been the Libertarian candidate.
According to the Cato institute, most libertarians voted for Bush in
2000 *and* 2004. He might as well have been their candidate.
David Friedman
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <f12gvc$odc$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >Paul Ciszek <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> The people saying they want to make government small enough to drown
> >> in a bathtub are libertarians.
> >
> >> The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the
> >> power of the government are libertarians.
> >
> >> See how that works?
> >
> >No. You followed a true statement with an obviously false statement.
> >The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
> >of the government are Republicans. Bush was the Republican candidate
> >in 2000 and 2004. He has never been the Libertarian candidate.
>
> According to the Cato institute, most libertarians voted for Bush in
> 2000 *and* 2004. He might as well have been their candidate.
I'm guessing that you are referring to a piece Cato published which used
a broad definition of libertarian--broad enough to cover about ten to
twenty percent of the voters, as best I recall. Assuming that's your
source, your statement is false. The article found a majority of
libertarians defined in that way voting for Bush, substantially fewer in
2004 than in 2000, and nothing close to "most" in the second election.
In any case, "voting for" doesn't imply "approving of every damn thing
Bush does to expand the power of government," which was your original
claim. Do you have any support for it?
Paul Ciszek
In article <ddfr-BF53A1.0...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
>I'm guessing that you are referring to a piece Cato published which used
>a broad definition of libertarian--broad enough to cover about ten to
>twenty percent of the voters, as best I recall. Assuming that's your
>source, your statement is false. The article found a majority of
>libertarians defined in that way voting for Bush, substantially fewer in
>2004 than in 2000, and nothing close to "most" in the second election.
>
>In any case, "voting for" doesn't imply "approving of every damn thing
>Bush does to expand the power of government," which was your original
>claim. Do you have any support for it?
Only the redneck "libertarians" I encounter at geek social events.
(Ex-military and ex-aerospace guys.)
If you look back in the thread, I was countering Keith's inaccurate
generalization about environmentalists with a inaccurate generalization
about libertarians.
David Friedman
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <ddfr-BF53A1.0...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >
> >I'm guessing that you are referring to a piece Cato published which used
> >a broad definition of libertarian--broad enough to cover about ten to
> >twenty percent of the voters, as best I recall. Assuming that's your
> >source, your statement is false. The article found a majority of
> >libertarians defined in that way voting for Bush, substantially fewer in
> >2004 than in 2000, and nothing close to "most" in the second election.
> >
> >In any case, "voting for" doesn't imply "approving of every damn thing
> >Bush does to expand the power of government," which was your original
> >claim. Do you have any support for it?
>
> Only the redneck "libertarians" I encounter at geek social events.
> (Ex-military and ex-aerospace guys.)
Could be--since I wasn't present at those events I have no direct
evidence on what those people said.
> If you look back in the thread, I was countering Keith's inaccurate
> generalization about environmentalists with a inaccurate generalization
> about libertarians.
I don't think so, although perhaps I didn't follow your argument. Keith
wrote:
---
The people speaking loudly in public that something must be done about
global warming are the environmentalists.
The people speaking loudly in public that nuclear power plants should
be banned are the environmentalists.
----
As it happens, I don't think "the environmentalists" is quite correct,
since there are some environmentalists who are exceptions to both
patterns. But aside from that his statement seems correct, or at least
within the usual limits of precision--most people who speak loudly for
both causes are indeed environmentalists.
But your second statement was:
"The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
of the government are libertarians."
And in fact, most people approving of ... are not libertarians.
dwight...@gmail.com
wrote:
> In article <f1a4lr$ab...@reader2.panix.com>,
> nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <ddfr-BF53A1.08171030042...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
> > David Friedman <d...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> > >I'm guessing that you are referring to a piece Cato published which used
> > >a broad definition of libertarian--broad enough to cover about ten to
> > >twenty percent of the voters, as best I recall. Assuming that's your
> > >source, your statement is false. The article found a majority of
> > >libertarians defined in that way voting for Bush, substantially fewer in
> > >2004 than in 2000, and nothing close to "most" in the second election.
>
> > >In any case, "voting for" doesn't imply "approving of every damn thing
> > >Bush does to expand the power of government," which was your original
> > >claim. Do you have any support for it?
>
> > Only the redneck "libertarians" I encounter at geek social events.
> > (Ex-military and ex-aerospace guys.)
>
> Could be--since I wasn't present at those events I have no direct
> evidence on what those people said.
>
> > If you look back in the thread, I was countering Keith's inaccurate
> > generalization about environmentalists with a inaccurate generalization
> > about libertarians.
>
> I don't think so, although perhaps I didn't follow your argument. Keith
> wrote:
Sigh. More mendacity from the guy that claims the Census Bureau is a
partisan organization. In actual fact - and this isn't hard to find,
David Loewe, Jr.
wrote:
>Paul Ciszek <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> The people saying they want to make government small enough to drown
>> in a bathtub are libertarians.
>
>> The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the
>> power of the government are libertarians.
>
>> See how that works?
>
>No. You followed a true statement with an obviously false statement.
>The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
>of the government are Republicans. Bush was the Republican candidate
>in 2000 and 2004. He has never been the Libertarian candidate.
I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
There is a difference between being a libertarian and being a member
of the Libertarian Party.
--
"To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee;
For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee."
-Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"
David Friedman
"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2007 12:26:20 -0400, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Paul Ciszek <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> The people saying they want to make government small enough to drown
> >> in a bathtub are libertarians.
> >
> >> The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the
> >> power of the government are libertarians.
> >
> >> See how that works?
> >
> >No. You followed a true statement with an obviously false statement.
> >The people aproving of every damn thing Bush does to expand the power
> >of the government are Republicans. Bush was the Republican candidate
> >in 2000 and 2004. He has never been the Libertarian candidate.
>
> I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
>
> There is a difference between being a libertarian and being a member
> of the Libertarian Party.
Agreed. I'm not an LP member, although I usually vote for their
candidates.
But, at least in my experience, although many libertarians vote
Republican, few if any approve "of every damn thing Bush does to expand
the power of the government."
Paul Ciszek
Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping, detention
without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers, unnecessary wars,
runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the myth of separation of
church and state".
But giving up all that stuff is worth it just to prevent Democrats
from rescinding the tax cuts, right?
"Libertarians" commitment to liberty has a very low price.
Karl Johanson
>
> In article <g4vj33972uufk3f86...@4ax.com>,
> David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
>
> Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping, detention
> without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers, unnecessary wars,
> runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the myth of separation of
> church and state".
>
> But giving up all that stuff is worth it just to prevent Democrats
> from rescinding the tax cuts, right?
Hey, come one. There's more to it than that. Another Democrat president
getting a blow job from a consenting adult could *devastate* the United
States.
Karl Johanson
Keith F. Lynch
> There's more to it than that. Another Democrat president getting a
> blow job from a consenting adult could *devastate* the United States.
If Hillary were to nationalize medical care, and raise taxes on the
middle class to pay for it, that *could* devastate the United States.
Especially considering how many people are already paying well over
half their take-home pay on rent.
If Obama were to increase the number of federal employees, and their
rate of pay, considering they're already paid more than twice as much,
on average, as the average US taxpayer, that too could devastate the US.
If a Democratic president were to bring back the draft, that might not
devastate the US, but would lead to a whole lot of dead innocent young
people. Republicans may have more of a reputation as warmongers, but
is it deserved? The Vietnam-era draft was due to a Democrat. So was
the Korea-era draft, the WWII draft, and the WWI draft. You have to
go back to the Civil War to find a Republican draft.
If Al Gore were to dismantle industrial civilization, so as to save us
from the "horrors" of a climate that's a couple degrees warmer, that
could devastate, not just the United States, but the whole world.
I'm not allowed to vote, but if I were, I could not bring myself to
vote for either a Republican *or* a Democrat.
David Friedman
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <g4vj33972uufk3f86...@4ax.com>,
> David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
>
> Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping, detention
> without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers, unnecessary wars,
> runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the myth of separation of
> church and state".
Which of those things do you think the Democrats are consistently
against?
When I vote I usually vote libertarian. But some years back, I received
a mailing from the local Democratic candidate for congress describing
all the evil things the Republican candidate was in favor of. I was in
favor of all or almost all of them, so it seemed only appropriate to
vote for the Republican.
Keith F. Lynch
> When I vote I usually vote libertarian. But some years back, I
> received a mailing from the local Democratic candidate for congress
> describing all the evil things the Republican candidate was in favor
> of. I was in favor of all or almost all of them, so it seemed only
> appropriate to vote for the Republican.
I trust you first checked to see if the Republican candiate really was
in favor of them?
What if the Republicans had mailed you something describing things the
Democrats approved of that the Replicans didn't -- and you approved of
all those things, too?
David Friedman
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> > When I vote I usually vote libertarian. But some years back, I
> > received a mailing from the local Democratic candidate for congress
> > describing all the evil things the Republican candidate was in favor
> > of. I was in favor of all or almost all of them, so it seemed only
> > appropriate to vote for the Republican.
>
> I trust you first checked to see if the Republican candiate really was
> in favor of them?
No. I was voting as an expressive act. I didn't expect my vote to change
the outcome, it merely seemed the appropriate response to the mailing.
> What if the Republicans had mailed you something describing things the
> Democrats approved of that the Replicans didn't -- and you approved of
> all those things, too?
I wouldn't have bothered voting.
Looking back at it, I think I now know who the Republican candidate must
have been and, as Republican candidates go, he was in fact one of the
better ones. But I don't think I knew that at the time.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> > When I vote I usually vote libertarian. But some years back, I
> > received a mailing from the local Democratic candidate for congress
> > describing all the evil things the Republican candidate was in favor
> > of. I was in favor of all or almost all of them, so it seemed only
> > appropriate to vote for the Republican.
>
> I trust you first checked to see if the Republican candiate really was
> in favor of them?
>
> What if the Republicans had mailed you something describing things the
> Democrats approved of that the Replicans didn't -- and you approved of
> all those things, too?
For several years now I've found myself wanting to vote for the
strawmen used in local campaign ads. Not that I have much choice
with more than 2/3 of the ballot being unopposed Republicans.
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"You are nothing if not thorough in your self-congratulatory made-up
logic." "I'm rather humble that way." -- Sanderson, _Warbreaker_
Mark Atwood
>
> For several years now I've found myself wanting to vote for the
> strawmen used in local campaign ads. Not that I have much choice
> with more than 2/3 of the ballot being unopposed Republicans.
Often, so do I, and I live in a D party stronghold.
--
Mark Atwood When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@mark.atwood.name you've done anything at all.
http://mark.atwood.name/ http://fallenpegasus.livejournal.com/
Karl Johanson
> Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> There's more to it than that. Another Democrat president getting a
>> blow job from a consenting adult could *devastate* the United States.
>
> If Hillary were to nationalize medical care, and raise taxes on the
> middle class to pay for it, that *could* devastate the United States.
Yeah I know. Canada and many other countries have a robust enough
economies to handle socialized
medicine, but the US's economy would shatter.
A devastated US economy might lead to the collapse of the government,
and the spontaneous generation of a free market anarchist paradise.
Sure, you might have the personal sacrifice if helping pay for a
socialized medical system, until it destroys the US, but isn't that a
sacrifice you're willing to make?
> If Al Gore were to dismantle industrial civilization,
He he.
>so as to save us
> from the "horrors" of a climate that's a couple degrees warmer, that
> could devastate, not just the United States, but the whole world.
That reminds me, what happened to North America tectonically when the
glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age? I've tried to find a
good source on that, but haven't tracked one down thus far.
> I'm not allowed to vote, but if I were, I could not bring myself to
> vote for either a Republican *or* a Democrat.
I'm not allowed to vote in the US either.
Karl Johanson
Paul Ciszek
In article <tv7%h.162586$aG1.113863@pd7urf3no>,
Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>That reminds me, what happened to North America tectonically when the
>glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age? I've tried to find a
>good source on that, but haven't tracked one down thus far.
when glaciers a few thousand feet thick covered the land, it actually
sank into the Earth's mantle a little to compensate for the new weight.
When that weight dissapeared in a fairly short time (geologically
speaking), the crust "popped" back, causing the occasional Earthquake.
Karl Johanson
>
> In article <tv7%h.162586$aG1.113863@pd7urf3no>,
> Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>That reminds me, what happened to North America tectonically when the
>>glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age? I've tried to find
>>a
>>good source on that, but haven't tracked one down thus far.
>
> when glaciers a few thousand feet thick covered the land, it actually
> sank into the Earth's mantle a little to compensate for the new
> weight.
> When that weight dissapeared in a fairly short time (geologically
> speaking), the crust "popped" back, causing the occasional Earthquake.
That's what I figured. Thank you. Curious about the magnitudes & all.
Greenland is losing around 250 cubic kilometres of ice per year. I'm
hoping if it pops up, that its nothing too serious, or that it happens
in such a way as to not cause a serious tsunami.
Karl Johanson
Arwel Parry
<karljo...@shaw.ca> writes
With isostatic rebound, "pop up" is a relative term - the last ice age
ended about 10-11,000 years ago, and rebound is not expected to be
complete for another 10,000 years or so. Scotland is still rising, while
southern England, which wasn't under the ice cap, is tending to sink as
the whole island tilts; even discounting possible sea level rises from
global warming there is a problem of increased flooding in the south and
it's reckoned that the Thames Barrier, London's chief flood defence,
will need to be beefed up by 2030.
As to the magnitude of isostatic rebound, according to Wikipedia (so
make of it what you will, but it seems reasonable to me), for the first
2000 years or so while deglaciation was happening the land rose by about
7.5 cm/year, before slowing down to around 2.5 cm/year, and now less
than 1 cm/year. The total uplift is expected to be about 400 metres.
In Sweden, Lake Malaren used to be an arm of the Baltic, and only became
a freshwater lake around 1200 AD, about the time Stockholm was built at
its outlet.
--
Arwel Parry
Paul Ciszek
In article <ALe%h.162429$6m4.103493@pd7urf1no>,
Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>"Paul Ciszek" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
>>
>> In article <tv7%h.162586$aG1.113863@pd7urf3no>,
>> Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>That reminds me, what happened to North America tectonically when the
>>>glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age? I've tried to find
>>>a
>>>good source on that, but haven't tracked one down thus far.
>>
>> when glaciers a few thousand feet thick covered the land, it actually
>> sank into the Earth's mantle a little to compensate for the new
>> weight.
>> When that weight dissapeared in a fairly short time (geologically
>> speaking), the crust "popped" back, causing the occasional Earthquake.
>
>That's what I figured. Thank you. Curious about the magnitudes & all.
>Greenland is losing around 250 cubic kilometres of ice per year. I'm
>hoping if it pops up, that its nothing too serious, or that it happens
>in such a way as to not cause a serious tsunami.
I should have given you the name of the process: Isostatic adjustment.
The firt hit google gives for isostatic adjustment is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-glacial_rebound
Paul Ciszek
In article <ddfr-5D2167.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <f1ia6f$bh9$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
>
>> In article <g4vj33972uufk3f86...@4ax.com>,
>> David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
>>
>> Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping, detention
>> without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers, unnecessary wars,
>> runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the myth of separation of
>> church and state".
>
>Which of those things do you think the Democrats are consistently
>against?
Good question. I expect the Democrats to oppose theocracy, if only
because abortion rights are such an important source of votes for
them. Likewise, they have an awful lot riding on pulling the troops
out of Iraq. Even if Democrats decide not to rescind the extra
powers given the president once one of their own is in office,
President Hillary will certainly convince the Republicans it was a
bad idea. And, laugh if you like, but these days Democrats seem to
at least be aware of some connection between how much the goverment
spends, how much it takes in, and the burden of servicing the debt
that results. The debt has grown most swiftly under Bush43 and
Reagan, while Carter supposedly balanced the budget for one year
and Clinton at least came close.
But my point was that by voting Republican, as the "libertarian" I was
responding to admitted to doing, he was giving support and an alleged
mandate to all of the reprehensible policies I listed above. I said
nothing in my post of voting Democrat instead. Even though I have
mainly voted Democrat, I would rather have real libertarians (if there
are any in politics) in office than Republicans.
David Friedman
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <ddfr-5D2167.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >In article <f1ia6f$bh9$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
> > nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <g4vj33972uufk3f86...@4ax.com>,
> >> David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
> >>
> >> Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping, detention
> >> without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers, unnecessary wars,
> >> runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the myth of separation of
> >> church and state".
> >
> >Which of those things do you think the Democrats are consistently
> >against?
>
> Good question. I expect the Democrats to oppose theocracy, if only
> because abortion rights are such an important source of votes for
> them.
I don't think the Republicans are supporting theocracy. But in my view,
the most serious threat to the separation of state and religion at
present is environmentalism. That's the religion whose rituals are
actually imposed by force of law and whose doctrines are taught in the
public schools; I've probably told Steve Lansburg's story on that here
before.
> Likewise, they have an awful lot riding on pulling the troops
> out of Iraq.
That's probably true--but your statement wasn't about Iraq but about
"unnecessary wars." Clinton's involvement in Haiti and attack on the
Sudan didn't turn out nearly as badly as Bush's attack on Iraq, but they
suggest that the Democrats are just as capable of doing that sort of
thing as the Republicans.
> Even if Democrats decide not to rescind the extra
> powers given the president once one of their own is in office,
> President Hillary will certainly convince the Republicans it was a
> bad idea.
You have just given an argument in favor of voting for Bush in the past
two elections--to persuade the Democrats that expanded powers for the
President are a bad idea.
...
> But my point was that by voting Republican, as the "libertarian" I was
> responding to admitted to doing, he was giving support and an alleged
> mandate to all of the reprehensible policies I listed above. I said
> nothing in my post of voting Democrat instead. Even though I have
> mainly voted Democrat, I would rather have real libertarians (if there
> are any in politics) in office than Republicans.
As you may have noticed, Ron Paul is the one current Republican
candidate for President who opposed and opposes the Iraq war.
I can't speak for the other poster, but I can see two different
arguments for voting Republican, as some libertarians do. One is that
the only real choice is between the two major parties, and the voter
feels that, on average, the Republicans are the less bad. I think that
was a plausible idea at various points in the past although, as I argued
on my blog some time back, it's hard to see much basis for it currently.
The other is that the voter is voting in particular races where the
Republican candidate is (relatively) libertarian.
David Friedman
Arwel Parry <ar...@cartref.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> As to the magnitude of isostatic rebound, according to Wikipedia (so
> make of it what you will, but it seems reasonable to me), for the first
> 2000 years or so while deglaciation was happening the land rose by about
> 7.5 cm/year, before slowing down to around 2.5 cm/year, and now less
> than 1 cm/year. The total uplift is expected to be about 400 metres.
So the change was both much more rapid and much larger than predicted
effects due to global warming. If those figures are right, and if the
upper end of the IPCC estimate is right, the current rate of rise will
just about cancel the effect of global warming for areas it applies to.
Southern England, on the other hand ... .
Googling around, it looks as though most of the U.S. is going down at a
rate of a few mm/year, Scandinavia up at close to a cm/year.
Keith F. Lynch
> I don't think the Republicans are supporting theocracy.
Didn't Bush recently call for a national day of prayer?
Karl Johanson
> In article <ALe%h.162429$6m4.103493@pd7urf1no>,
> Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>"Paul Ciszek" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
>>>
>>> In article <tv7%h.162586$aG1.113863@pd7urf3no>,
>>> Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>That reminds me, what happened to North America tectonically when
>>>>the
>>>>glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age? I've tried to
>>>>find
>>>>a
>>>>good source on that, but haven't tracked one down thus far.
>>>
>>> when glaciers a few thousand feet thick covered the land, it
>>> actually
>>> sank into the Earth's mantle a little to compensate for the new
>>> weight.
>>> When that weight dissapeared in a fairly short time (geologically
>>> speaking), the crust "popped" back, causing the occasional
>>> Earthquake.
>>
>>That's what I figured. Thank you. Curious about the magnitudes & all.
>>Greenland is losing around 250 cubic kilometres of ice per year. I'm
>>hoping if it pops up, that its nothing too serious, or that it happens
>>in such a way as to not cause a serious tsunami.
>
> I should have given you the name of the process: Isostatic adjustment.
Thanks! Will read up more about it. I'd heard of a similar effect, where
by the weight of a dam & its reservoir are conjectured to add enough
tectonic stress to cause earthquakes. (There was a 6.4 earthquake at the
Sukta Dam at Killari, Maharashtra, which is conjectured to be related to
the dam & reservoir.) I don't know if there have been any significant
'pop up' earthquakes related to the collapse of any dams.
Karl Johanson
William December Starr
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
> If Hillary were to nationalize medical care, and raise taxes on
> the middle class to pay for it, that *could* devastate the United
> States. Especially considering how many people are already paying
> well over half their take-home pay on rent.
And you know that Hillary would do that because, um, well, she's
*Hillary*, dammit!
[ *snip* ]
> If a Democratic president were to bring back the draft, that might
> not devastate the US, but would lead to a whole lot of dead
> innocent young people. Republicans may have more of a reputation
> as warmongers, but is it deserved?
Yes.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> said:
>> Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping,
>> detention without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers,
>> unnecessary wars, runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the
>> myth of separation of church and state".
>
> Which of those things do you think the Democrats are consistently
> against?
It's more a matter of the Republicans today -- by which I mean the
Republicans who wield power in national politics and law-making --
being consistently *for* all of them.
William December Starr
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> said:
> I don't think the Republicans are supporting theocracy. But in
> my view, the most serious threat to the separation of state and
> religion at present is environmentalism. That's the religion
> whose rituals are actually imposed by force of law and whose
> doctrines are taught in the public schools; I've probably told
> Steve Lansburg's story on that here before.
Environmentalism is a religion?
Are you drunk or just lying?
David Friedman
I'm not drunk, and a lie is an untruth told with intention to deceive.
You have access to the same information I do, so at most I could be
intending to deceive you about my opinion. But as it happens, I'm not.
There are, of course, consequentialist arguments for particular
environmentalist policies, as for particular Christian policies. But the
driving force is religious faith, although the religion in question is
mostly non-deist, save for those, probably a small minority, who take
the idea of Gaea seriously. That seems to me to be obvious to anyone who
pays attention to the discussion--consider the way "natural" and
"chemicals" and "pollution" get used, the way recycling is pushed as a
moral obligation independent of any serious consequentialist calculation
of costs and benefits, the general hyping of global warming--how many of
the people who talk about sea level rise mention, or even know, how
small the predicted levels are?
Or consider the reluctance of almost all of the environmental movement
to seriously consider nuclear power as a solution to global warming,
despite the fact that it is the one source of power we currently have
that can be expanded almost without limit and doesn't produce CO2.
People can, of course, make consequentialist arguments to support their
conclusions--but isn't it obvious that the driving force is the
knowledge that nuclear is evil, unnatural, a tool of the Devil?
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> If a Democratic president were to bring back the draft, that
>> might not devastate the US, but would lead to a whole lot of dead
>> innocent young people. Republicans may have more of a reputation
>> as warmongers, but is it deserved?
> Yes.
Which party was the president who started the WWI draft?
Which party was the president who started the WWII draft?
Which party was the president who started the Korean war draft?
Which party was the president who started the Vietnam war draft?
Which party was the president who ended it?
You might notice a certain pattern.
Nothing in the above (or in anything else I've ever written, said, or
done) should be construed as support for the Republican Party. (Or,
or course, of the Democratic Party either.)
David Loewe, Jr.
Ciszek) wrote:
>In article <g4vj33972uufk3f86...@4ax.com>,
>David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
>
>Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping, detention
>without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers, unnecessary wars,
>runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the myth of separation of
>church and state".
No. It indicates that, overall, I consider the Republicans to be
better than the Democrats. For the specific instance when the
Republican candidate is unacceptable (say, William Webster for MO
Governor in 1992), I either vote for the Libertarian candidate or
don't vote for that office.
Some of those trouble me, some I think you have exactly backwards and
some I don't see the way you obviously do (and some fulfill more than
one of those criteria).
>But giving up all that stuff is worth it just to prevent Democrats
>from rescinding the tax cuts, right?
There are far worse things the Democrats would do than just
"rescinding the tax cuts."
>"Libertarians" commitment to liberty has a very low price.
Only when you debate strawman libertarians.
--
"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
Who dares not put it to the touch,
To win or lose it all."
David Loewe, Jr.
You're either blowing smoke or you have no idea why President Clinton
was actually impeached.
--
"Sometimes, a lost cause is the only one worth fighting for."
- Jimmy Stewart in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington"
David Loewe, Jr.
And, to think I was taking you seriously for a while...
--
"Money is truthful. If a man speaks of his honor, make
him pay cash."
-Lazarus Long
dwight...@gmail.com
> In article <f1ie20$9j...@panix2.panix.com>,
We know for a fact what Republican rule hath wrought - a pointless,
bloody war draining our treasury of hundreds of billions of dollars,
crony capitalism, the politization of the Justice department, the FDA,
FEMA, etc, sex scandals, influence peddling, the introduction of
warrentless wiretapping, the legalization of torture, the theory of
the unitary executive, a supreme court so inept and political it has
no hesitation on infringing upon the rights of women and overriding
scientific evidence if it means throwing a bone to the base in time
for the 2008 elections, and on and on and on.
These aren't speculations. These are done facts.
And yet, there are people who think of themselves as adults who still
vote for these con artists on the grounds that the Democrats _may_ do
something worse.
Why bother arguing with them? They're not going to change their
minds, whatever the evidence.
David Loewe, Jr.
Ciszek) wrote:
Not even close.
>and Clinton at least came close.
No. It happened on his watch.
>But my point was that by voting Republican, as the "libertarian" I was
>responding to admitted to doing, he was giving support and an alleged
>mandate to all of the reprehensible policies I listed above. I said
>nothing in my post of voting Democrat instead. Even though I have
>mainly voted Democrat, I would rather have real libertarians (if there
>are any in politics) in office than Republicans.
--
"Even when uttered by Democrats, middle class often sounds like a
mealymouthed way of saying, Us, and not them, where them includes poor
people, snake handlers and those with pierced tongues."
- Barbara Ehrenreich
Karl Johanson
I'm not predicting a massive tsunami. I'm admitting I don't know enough
about it & wondering.
Karl Johanson
Karl Johanson
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
>
>> If Hillary were to nationalize medical care, and raise taxes on
>> the middle class to pay for it, that *could* devastate the United
>> States. Especially considering how many people are already paying
>> well over half their take-home pay on rent.
>
> And you know that Hillary would do that because, um, well, she's
> *Hillary*, dammit!
: )
If your toe smarts, just blame Hillary.
If a duck farts, just blame Hillary.
If there's something you don't like,
say a kid falls off his bike,
don't try to fix it just blame Hillary.
Karl Johanson
William December Starr
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
>>> Republicans may have more of a reputation as warmongers, but is
>>> it deserved?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> Which party was the president who started the WWI draft?
> Which party was the president who started the WWII draft?
> Which party was the president who started the Korean war draft?
> Which party was the president who started the Vietnam war draft?
> Which party was the president who ended it?
>
> You might notice a certain pattern.
What year is it right now?
You might notice that times have changed.
William December Starr
"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> said:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 16:28:22 GMT, "Karl Johanson"
> <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> Hey, come one. There's more to it than that. Another Democrat
>> president getting a blow job from a consenting adult could
>> *devastate* the United States.
>
> You're either blowing smoke or you have no idea why President
> Clinton was actually impeached.
Clinton was impeached because he won two more presidential
elections than the Republicans could stand.
William December Starr
"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> said:
> No. It indicates that, overall, I consider the Republicans to be
> better than the Democrats.
Have you *seen* today's Republicans?
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:08:47 +0000 (UTC), nos...@nospam.com (Paul
> Ciszek) wrote:
>
>> But giving up all that stuff is worth it just to prevent
>> Democrats from rescinding the tax cuts, right?
>
> There are far worse things the Democrats would do than just
> "rescinding the tax cuts."
Such as?
David Loewe, Jr.
wrote:
>David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>> I don't think the Republicans are supporting theocracy.
>
>Didn't Bush recently call for a national day of prayer?
And?
--
"You won't learn much about capitalism at a university. How could
you? Capitalism is a matter of risks and rewards, and a tenured
professor doesn't have much to do with either.
- Dr. Jerry Pournelle
David Loewe, Jr.
<karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
Wow.
Just wow.
--
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord,
make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
- Voltaire
David Loewe, Jr.
Starr) wrote:
--
"I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront
your intelligence."
- William F. Buckley, Jr.
David Loewe, Jr.
Starr) wrote:
>In article <3vcs3397ikosjpl81...@4ax.com>,
>"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> said:
>
>> No. It indicates that, overall, I consider the Republicans to be
>> better than the Democrats.
>
>Have you *seen* today's Republicans?
Have *you* seen today's Democrats?
>> On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:08:47 +0000 (UTC), nos...@nospam.com (Paul
>> Ciszek) wrote:
>>
>>> But giving up all that stuff is worth it just to prevent
>>> Democrats from rescinding the tax cuts, right?
>>
>> There are far worse things the Democrats would do than just
>> "rescinding the tax cuts."
>
>Such as?
Which one?
--
"I - I don't believe it, There she goes again
She's tidied up, and I can't find anything
All my tubes and wires, And careful notes
And antiquated notions..."
Thomas "Dolby" Robertson
David Loewe, Jr.
Starr) wrote:
Which has what to do with reputations (which should be based on past
performance), exactly?
--
"Quantum particles: the dreams that stuff is made of."
- David Moser
David Friedman
"Karl Johanson" <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
I don't know about Greenland, but I gather that rates of past rebound
range from about 10 cm/year down to a few mm/year.
David Friedman
"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 16:28:22 GMT, "Karl Johanson"
> <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >"Paul Ciszek" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
> >> In article <g4vj33972uufk3f86...@4ax.com>,
> >> David Loewe, Jr. <dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>I consider myself libertarian and I almost always vote Republican.
> >>
> >> Thereby indicating that you condone domestic wiretapping, detention
> >> without trial, the erosion of the balance of powers, unnecessary wars,
> >> runaway national debt, and "overthrowing the myth of separation of
> >> church and state".
> >>
> >> But giving up all that stuff is worth it just to prevent Democrats
> >> from rescinding the tax cuts, right?
> >
> >Hey, come one. There's more to it than that. Another Democrat president
> >getting a blow job from a consenting adult could *devastate* the United
> >States.
>
> You're either blowing smoke or you have no idea why President Clinton
> was actually impeached.
For perjury, I think.
On the other hand, the current President has confessed to multiple
felonies--and justified them on the grounds that he was entitled to
secretly violate the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act because he
thought it was unconstitutional, even though he had made no attempt to
challenge it in court.
Keith F. Lynch
> If your toe smarts, just blame Hillary.
> If a duck farts, just blame Hillary.
> If there's something you don't like,
> say a kid falls off his bike,
> don't try to fix it just blame Hillary.
What, all by myself? It takes a village to blame Hillary.
David Loewe, Jr.
That's not how I understand his explanation. It seems to have more to
do with "war powers" than some belief that FISA is unconstitutional
per se.
--
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."
- John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987
Paul Ciszek
In article <f1l3k6$t87$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>> I don't think the Republicans are supporting theocracy.
>
>Didn't Bush recently call for a national day of prayer?
More than that. Bush called for "faith based initiatives",
whereby public money (i.e., tax money) was given directly to
religious organizations. A defector from the administration
who worked in the office of Faith Based Initiatives has said
that applications from non-Christian organizations were not
even read.
--
Please reply to: | "One of the hardest parts of my job is to
pciszek at panix dot com | connect Iraq to the War on Terror."
Autoreply is disabled | -- G. W. Bush, 9/7/2006
David Friedman
My understanding is that administration spokesmen have made two claims,
both of which strike me as implausible.
1. FISA was unconstitutional because it restrained the President in his
war making powers. Given that the Constitution not only makes the
President the commander in chief but explicitly gives Congress the power
to make rules for the military, I find it hard to make sense of that
claim. I also am disturbed by the idea that if you think a law is
unconstitutional, the appropriate action is to secretly violate
it--without making any attempt to challenge it in court.
2. Congress repealed FISA when it authorized the use of force after
9/11. That also seems implausible. FISA explicitly says that, in case of
war, its provisions will be suspended for a fixed length of time, I
think a week or two--presumably to give Congress the opportunity to
amend it if necessary. Hence it was not intended to go out of effect,
except temporarily, even if there was a declaration of war.
FISA makes it a felony, punishable by up to five years or ten thousand
dollars, to either intercept such communications without a warrant or
knowingly use information produced by such an interception. I believe
the President has made it clear that he did the latter.
Paul Ciszek
In article <jZs%h.163084$DE1.52584@pd7urf2no>,
Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>If your toe smarts, just blame Hillary.
>If a duck farts, just blame Hillary.
>If there's something you don't like,
>say a kid falls off his bike,
>don't try to fix it just blame Hillary.
Is there a tune to this?
David Dyer-Bennet
> In article <f1ie20$9jn$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
>
>> If Hillary were to nationalize medical care, and raise taxes on
>> the middle class to pay for it, that *could* devastate the United
>> States. Especially considering how many people are already paying
>> well over half their take-home pay on rent.
>
> And you know that Hillary would do that because, um, well, she's
> *Hillary*, dammit!
Health care, probably a single-payer system, was the big issue she was
associated with in politics, and one she still talks about. It seems
entirely reasonable to think she would attempt to implement such a system.
William December Starr
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> said:
> There are, of course, consequentialist arguments for particular
> environmentalist policies, as for particular Christian policies.
> But the driving force is religious faith, although the religion in
> question is mostly non-deist, save for those, probably a small
> minority, who take the idea of Gaea seriously. That seems to me
> to be obvious to anyone who pays attention to the discussion --
> consider the way "natural" and "chemicals" and "pollution" get
> used, the way recycling is pushed as a moral obligation
> independent of any serious consequentialist calculation of costs
> and benefits, the general hyping of global warming--how many of
> the people who talk about sea level rise mention, or even know,
> how small the predicted levels are?
This looks to me like an inversion of the old "no true Scotsman"
gag: a claim that that Movement X's idiot/lunatic fringe _is_
Movement X, and anyone who looks like or identifies as an X-ist but
isn't stupid or crazy isn't a _true_ X-ist. Which, of course, is
just a variation of the even older "I can _win _any argument as long
as I get to define what the words in it mean" trick.
William December Starr
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) said:
> More than that. Bush called for "faith based initiatives",
> whereby public money (i.e., tax money) was given directly to
> religious organizations. A defector from the administration who
> worked in the office of Faith Based Initiatives has said that
> applications from non-Christian organizations were not even read.
I wouldn't be surprised if the ones from Christian organizations --
at least, what the Bush administration viewed as right-thinking
Christian organizations -- weren't read too deeply either, before
being stamped "APPROVED."
William December Starr
"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> said:
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
>>
>>> Which party was the president who started the WWI draft?
>>> Which party was the president who started the WWII draft?
>>> Which party was the president who started the Korean war draft?
>>> Which party was the president who started the Vietnam war draft?
>>> Which party was the president who ended it?
>>>
>>> You might notice a certain pattern.
>>
>> What year is it right now?
>> You might notice that times have changed.
>
> Which has what to do with reputations (which should be based on
> past performance), exactly?
Quite a lot. Reputations change as behavior changes, with events
being given less and less weight the further they recede into the
past. (If that wasn't true, the South would still be a wholly-owned
subsidiary of the Democratic Party.)
Regardless of what Democrats have done in the past, _today_ the
Republicans have a well-deserved reputation for warmongery.
William December Starr
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> said:
> William December Starr wrote:
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
>>
>>> If Hillary were to nationalize medical care, and raise taxes on
>>> the middle class to pay for it, that *could* devastate the
>>> United States. Especially considering how many people are
>>> already paying well over half their take-home pay on rent.
>>
>> And you know that Hillary would do that because, um, well, she's
>> *Hillary*, dammit!
>
> Health care, probably a single-payer system, was the big issue she
> was associated with in politics, and one she still talks about.
> It seems entirely reasonable to think she would attempt to
> implement such a system.
True. However, that's only half of what Keith suggested/predicted
that she would do. (The good half.)
William December Starr
"David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> said:
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>> "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>> No. It indicates that, overall, I consider the Republicans to
>>> be better than the Democrats.
>>
>> Have you *seen* today's Republicans?
>
> Have *you* seen today's Democrats?
Yes. While no saints, they are far better people.
>>> There are far worse things the Democrats would do than just
>>> "rescinding the tax cuts."
>>
>> Such as?
>
> Which one?
I asked for an example of the "far worse things" of which which you
spoke. I'm not seeing how "Which one?" is a meaningful response.
David Friedman
wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
> In article <hs1t33tc1386ivhcq...@4ax.com>,
> "David Loewe, Jr." <dlo...@mindspring.com> said:
>
> > wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
> >> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
> >>
> >>> Which party was the president who started the WWI draft?
> >>> Which party was the president who started the WWII draft?
> >>> Which party was the president who started the Korean war draft?
> >>> Which party was the president who started the Vietnam war draft?
> >>> Which party was the president who ended it?
> >>>
> >>> You might notice a certain pattern.
> >>
> >> What year is it right now?
> >> You might notice that times have changed.
> >
> > Which has what to do with reputations (which should be based on
> > past performance), exactly?
>
> Quite a lot. Reputations change as behavior changes, with events
> being given less and less weight the further they recede into the
> past. (If that wasn't true, the South would still be a wholly-owned
> subsidiary of the Democratic Party.)
>
> Regardless of what Democrats have done in the past, _today_ the
> Republicans have a well-deserved reputation for warmongery.
Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical factory in a country with which the U.S.
was not at war. The consequences were fortunately much less serious than
the consequences of attacking Iraq, but I think it shows a similar
willingness to use military force. I can see no particular reason to
think that, if 9/11 had happened during his administration, he wouldn't
have acted more or less as Bush did.
David Dyer-Bennet
> Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical factory in a country with which the U.S.
> was not at war. The consequences were fortunately much less serious than
> the consequences of attacking Iraq, but I think it shows a similar
> willingness to use military force. I can see no particular reason to
> think that, if 9/11 had happened during his administration, he wouldn't
> have acted more or less as Bush did.
Let us not forget the political need, largely created by the
Republicans, to avoid looking soft on arabs.
Also, the possible negative consequences were *forseeably* much less
than the foreseeable consequences of invading Iraq; it's not just *luck*.
David Goldfarb
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>if 9/11 had happened during [Clinton'] administration, he [would]
>have acted more or less as Bush did.
He would have invaded Afghanistan, yes; I see no reason to think
that he would have invaded Iraq.
--
David Goldfarb |"You are trapped in that bright moment where you
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | learned your doom."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Samuel R. Delany, _City of a Thousand Suns_
Paul Ciszek
In article <ddfr-D0D480.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
>was not at war. The consequences were fortunately much less serious than
>the consequences of attacking Iraq, but I think it shows a similar
>willingness to use military force.
He was aiming for Al Qaeda--keep that in mind for the next bit...
>I can see no particular reason to
>think that, if 9/11 had happened during his administration, he wouldn't
>have acted more or less as Bush did.
I believe Clinton or Gore would have invaded Afghanistan, the country
that was the principal base for the organization that attacked the US
and the location of the most important organizers.
What is your reason for believing that a Democrat would have invaded
Iraq? Even Bush43 never actually claimed there was a link between
Iraq and 9/11, he just kept mentioning them together over and over
until enough people believed it.
Paul Ciszek
In article <463f7956$0$960$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net>,
Note that after a dozen years of "compasionate conservativism", there
are people who now wish that we had given Bill & Hillary's plan a shot
instead.
David Goldfarb
Paul Ciszek <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>In article <jZs%h.163084$DE1.52584@pd7urf2no>,
>Karl Johanson <karljo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>If your toe smarts, just blame Hillary.
>>If a duck farts, just blame Hillary.
>>If there's something you don't like,
>>say a kid falls off his bike,
>>don't try to fix it just blame Hillary.
>
>Is there a tune to this?
I'm guessing "Blame Canada" from _South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut_.
Not having actually seen that movie, I can't say for sure.
--
David Goldfarb |"Ms. Calendar..."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Please, call me Jenny. 'Ms. Calendar' is
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | my father."
| -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer