BucCONeer Hotels (long)

Perrianne Lurie

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98

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Peggy Rae Pavlat (our con chair) has issued the following statement
about the hotel situation for BucCONeer:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Bucconeer Members,

Many of you have had problems making your hotel reservations for
Bucconeer. Here is some information about the situation and how we are
attempting to correct these problems.

As you know, the 56th World Science Fiction Convention will begin on
Wednesday, August 5, and end on Sunday, August 9, 1998. We have large
room blocks in five main hotels (the Marriott, the Holiday Inn, the
Days Inn, the Omni, and the Hilton) and some additional rooms in other
hotels in downtown Baltimore. Hotel bookings were supposed to be made
through a housing bureau contractor retained by the Baltimore Area
Convention and Visitor's Association.

An outline of the scope of the problem and the data points we still
need follows:

It appears that over 1,200 rooms have already been reserved on the
peak convention nights.

Our hotel contracts provide for the convention rate for various
periods of time before and after Bucconeer (so long as the
reservations are made before July 4th).

The hotels have not actually run out of rooms for any of these periods
but the housing bureau is not renting our members more rooms than have
been blocked.

Our room block appears to be adequate for Thursday through Saturday
nights.

Our block is somewhat inadequate for Wednesday, particularly at the
less expensive hotels.

Our block has run dry for Saturday through Tuesday before the
convention begins, both at particular hotels and in the aggregate.

That said, we have two main problems:

1. The housing bureau mishandled the reservation process. Despite
our warnings and other communications, the housing bureau was
inadequate to cope with the flood of reservation requests from
Bucconeer members in January and February. As a result, the housing
bureau failed to fulfill reservation for many weeks. When the bureau
finally began to make reservations, it made many errors. (For what
it's worth, six other conventions in Baltimore are suffering the same
fate at the hands of this same housing bureau contractor. Most of the
other conventions are scheduled before Bucconeer. The hotels as
well as the other conventions are loosing patience with the housing
bureau and the contractor.)

2. We underestimated the number of rooms we should block for
Saturday, August 1 through Wednesday, August 5. (Four days before
Bucconeer begins (Saturday) we have thirty-five (35) rooms in the
block; three days before Bucconeer begins (Sunday) we have eighty-five
(85) rooms in our block; two days before Bucconeer (Monday) we have
175 rooms blocked.) This was too conservative for the days leading up
to the convention as well as the first day of Bucconeer. Conventions
must negotiate the number of rooms the hotels will hold for the
convention's members use each night of the convention and a charge for
the function space is specified if at least eighty-five (85) per cent
of the block is not filled. If a convention gets too few rooms, many
members are not able to get reservations. If there are too many
unfilled rooms, the convention must pay fees for facility space.

These two problems fed on each other. The housing bureau did not
process requests where not all of the requested room nights were
available as part of the block. This procedure resulted in processing
only those reservations where the entire request was available within
the block and effectively promoted people who requested only Wednesday
through Sunday room-nights ahead of anyone who requested room nights
earlier or later. When rooms began to run out for the first day of
the convention, requests that included those days were also flagged as
"problem" requests which further delayed their processing.

When people called the housing bureau contractor, they encountered a
variety of responses, depending on the staff person. Some problems
were promptly solved. However, many callers were placed on hold for a
long time or told that the staff member was too busy to look through
"the pile over there."

We now have an additional problem. Faced with difficulties in getting
reservations, creative fans have taken steps to get rooms outside the
regular reservation process. This creates a further demand for hotel
rooms during those nights that may make the hotels reluctant to add
more rooms to the convention's block, and/or may lead to double
bookings that artificially reduce the pool of available rooms.

We are auditing the information provided by the housing bureau to
identify possible double bookings and other problems. In addition to
finding out the current state of affairs, we also need a good
accounting of what requests have not been fulfilled. Furthermore, we
want to have a correct list of who does and doesn't have a room for
the convention.

We see two basic strategies for addressing these problems: Get more
rooms (especially on the days preceding the convention and on
Wednesday, August 5) and make the most efficient use possible of the
rooms we have.

We will meet with the General Managers of the five main hotels and the
Baltimore Area Convention and Visitor's Association. Issues which we
will discuss with the General Managers include:

We need at least another 75 rooms in the Hilton and another 75 rooms
in the Omni for Wednesday night. We would also like up to another 200
rooms in those two hotels for Wednesday night. (Are we going to fail
to meet our block simply because people can't get rooms for Wednesday
night and have therefore decided to give us a miss entirely?)

Our set-up staff need additional rooms before the convention begins.
The concept is covered in many of our hotel contracts, e.g., the
language in the Marriott contract: Hotel will set aside eight (8)
rooms of the Total Room Nights to be assigned by Baltimore WorldCon
1998 to staff at a special discount of 25% off confirmed single group
rate during the Event. Staff rooms will not be considered towards
complimentary room allotment, however the rate will apply three (3)
days prior to and three (3) days after the dates of the actual room
block, based on availability. (The "actual room block" in the
Marriott is Monday, August 3rd through Tuesday, August 10th.
Therefore three days before and three days after our block takes us
from the Friday before Bucconeer through the Friday after Bucconeer.)

Some convention attendees who have been thwarted in getting
reservations pre-con are planning to spend the pre-con days down in DC
at the Smithsonian, etc. This is a point to hit BACVA with --
significant loss of tourist $$.

A significant batch of the people who have had problems are fellow con
runners and meeting planners and officers of local and regional
groups -- this will be emphasized as well as the wide-spread bad
publicity all over the Internet about the housing mess which will keep
Baltimore low on the list of sites for both future rotating sf cons
and the "mundane" organizations and businesses that various fans
belong to or work for.

Bucky needs to get buy-in on counting all convention registered
attendees showing up on hotel reservation lists whether they're listed
under Bucky, Entertainment 98 or AARP. One problem with this type of
kludge is that Bucconeer may not get credit towards its room block for
these type of arrangements. (And we REALLY don't want to take the
financial hit of failing to meet our room block.)

Use our "comp rooms" all for the "early days" to generate additional
rooms-nights.

Communicate the F&B orders which are associated with the convention.

Finally, we want to know as soon as possible if we're going to have a
problem with overbooking. Fandom has a much lower proportion of
"no-shows" than the general population.

We need fandom's help: When you hear from someone who has a problem
with their hotel or suite reservation, please ask them to send email
to "facil...@bucconeer.worldcon.org" (or snail mail to the P.O. Box
314, Annapolis Junction, MD 20701) with the following information:

Their name, address and other contact information, the hotels they
requested in the order they requested them, the dates they wish to
check in and check out of the hotel, the date and method they used to
contact the Housing Bureau and any "data points" from that contact (if
they remember). The type of credit card they want to use to guarantee
the room is also helpful (but they should NOT include the credit card
number in this message).

One of the people working with these facilities problems will
acknowledge the receipt of the problem. These problems are then
addressed by the Baltimore Convention and Visitors Center working with
Bucconeer staff. Once the housing problem has been resolved, it would
be greatly appreciated if "facil...@bucconeer.worldcon.org" was sent
a note so saying.

Our official room blocks begin on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,
or Wednesday depending upon the hotel. When we attempted to get a
block of rooms earlier at the Marriott and the Holiday Inn they
refused to give us a block because of other groups that they had
booked. They suggested that they would most likely accept individual
reservations for an earlier arrival, but wanted to do this on a case
by case basis. We recommend using a start date as follows:

Marriott - first day of block: Monday 8/3/98
Holiday Inn - first day of block: Saturday 8/1/98
Omni - first day of block: Sunday 8/2/98
Hilton - first day of block: Saturday 8/1/98
Days' Inn - first day of block: Monday 8/3/98
Tremont - first day of block: Tuesday 8/4/98
All others - first day of block: Wednesday 8/5/98

Once you have your confirmation FROM THE HOTEL, call the hotel
directly and ask them to extend your stay to whenever you want to
arrive. If the yy don't have the rooms, then they won't be able to
extend, but most people who have tried this have gotten what they
needed.

Peggy Rae Pavlat

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perrianne Lurie
BucCONeer, the 56-th World Science Fiction Convention
August 5-9, 1998, Baltimore, Maryland, USA
P.O. Box 314, Annapolis Junction, MD 20701
bucc...@bucconeer.worldcon.org
http://www.bucconeer.worldcon.org

Personal E-mail: bucc...@pipeline.com

Magi Shepley

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98

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Okay, so if we gave up on the convention booking and went our own way to
get hotel rooms we're supposed to let you know about that too? Or not?
Sorry if it was in there, but I missed it.

Thanks.
Magi

Perrianne Lurie

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98

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Magi Shepley <ma...@concentric.net> wrote:

Yes, let the Facilties Division (facil...@bucconeer.worldcon.org)
know. If you haven't told the Convention Bureau NOT to process your
reservation request, they might have double booked you.

Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98

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Are you interested in hearing about "problems" that have been,
apparently, resolved satisfactorily?

In spite of having been in the problem stack, and having had to do a
fair amount of followup, the hotel seems to think I have a reservation
for the appropriate days, and I have a confirmation number from the
hotel.
73, doug,

Who will be unsure that it is all resolved until I've been in the room
for 1/2 hour.

cha...@nospamwil.net

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98

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If you want to rough it and save a lot of dough, try the AYH Youth
Hostel in Baltimore. You get basically a bed and shower, but for the con
goer who spends next to no time actually sleeping in their room, it's a
great value.

--
reply to: cha...@wil.net

Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

Perrianne Lurie

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98

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fa...@netcom14.netcom.com (Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604) wrote:

>Are you interested in hearing about "problems" that have been,
>apparently, resolved satisfactorily?

I think we want to know if the problem has been solved (if only so
that we don't keep trying to fix it). Just drop an e-mail to
facil...@bucconeer.worldcon.org telling them it's been fixed.

Susan Phillips

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98

to

Well, I'm looking at the confirmation from the convention bureau but I
have not received anything from the hotel.

I'm also on the phone with the hotel and they have no record of our
reservation. I made this in February.

What do I do now?

Sue
--
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

That chick is crazy...
Jerry Doyle

Elspeth Kovar Burgess

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

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Susan Phillips wrote:

> Well, I'm looking at the confirmation from the convention bureau but I
> have not received anything from the hotel.

> I'm also on the phone with the hotel and they have no record of our
> reservation. I made this in February.
>
> What do I do now?

To quote from Peggy Rae's message:

Perrianne Lurie

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

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Susan Phillips <vam...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Well, I'm looking at the confirmation from the convention bureau but I
>have not received anything from the hotel.

>I'm also on the phone with the hotel and they have no record of our
>reservation. I made this in February.

>What do I do now?

Send e-mail to facil...@bucconeer.worldcon.org detailing your
problem.

Craig Macbride

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

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Just for the information of those who care to see an example, and to
give the organisations concerned the bad publicity they deserve ...

bucc...@pipeline.com (Perrianne Lurie) writes:

>1. The housing bureau mishandled the reservation process. Despite
>our warnings and other communications, the housing bureau was
>inadequate to cope with the flood of reservation requests from
>Bucconeer members in January and February. As a result, the housing
>bureau failed to fulfill reservation for many weeks. When the bureau
>finally began to make reservations, it made many errors.

Well, BACVA have been even worse if you try to email them. They have done
nothing at all in my case.

I sent email to BACVA around late Jan, then Feb, then 9 Mar. Initially,
all I did was ask about availability, my intention being to book a room
at the Holiday Inn through them. Later, I provided more booking details.
I also emailed the postmaster of their site to ask if BACVA actually
receives, reads and/or replies to any email. Their postmaster didn't reply.

After this, I booked directly with Holiday Inns, and asked them to ask
the hotel about whether there's any way to circumvent the incompetent
BACVA and put my booking into the Con allocation. They said they'd have
to fax the hotel directly, and they never got back to me.

11 Mar I emailed facil...@bucconeer.worldcon.org. 19 Mar, I received a
reply basically asking for the same information again, so I sent it again
on 21 Mar.

On 25 Mar, I emailed Holiday Inns directly (HI-Guest...@hiw.com),
and they didn't bother to reply. I emailed them again on 16 Apr, and they
haven't bothered to reply to that email either.

So, out of BACVA, Holiday Inns and Bucconeer, only the Con itself has
ever replied to anything sent to it by me. BACVA and Holiday Inn's customer
"service" is utterly pathetic.

I really feel sorry for the folks running Bucconeer having to get involved
in sorting out the mess made by the "professionals".

--
Craig Macbride <cr...@glasswings.com.au>
-----------------------http://amarok.glasswings.com.au/~craig---------------
"It's a sense of humour like mine, Carla, that makes me proud
to be ashamed of myself." - Captain Kremmen

Susan Phillips

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

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I read it.

And I did it.

But you know something?

I'd like to do something myself about it, if possible; I just have more
faith that way.

Sue

Rev. Jihad Frenzy

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

to

Several of my friends have decided that, if after jumping through all the
new hoops placed in their path by Bucconeer to achieve the otherwise simple
goal of getting a room, they don't get a room, they will write to the Mayor
of Baltimore, explaining in great detail why they are not coming to
Baltimore and leaving a large wad of cash behind. (and then going to
Pennsic instead.)

I suggested that they write him NOW and explain why it's unlikely they will
be coming to Baltimore and leaving that wad of cash behind.

Forget all this let's co-operate with the Housing Bureau CRAP!

Yell loud and long at the MAYOR of Baltimore and TELL him in no uncertain
terms to get the bleep off his lazy bleeping ass and #1 fire the
subcontractors NOW! #2, tell the convention bureau to hire a competent
group to handle the reservations, NOW!

And this applies doubly to all the Baltimore members of the ConCom. If you
haven't forgotten, and it seems you have, YOU are running a business.
Period. End Of Sentence. Why the bleep are you letting your business get
screwed by an incompetent city bureaucracy?

No other company in Baltimore would stand for that for one sodding minute.

Have you all forgotten that the Mayor is a public SERVANT? He works for
YOU! Make him do his damned job, which is getting people to spend money in
Baltimore. If one of his agencies is keeping people from doing that one
thing, then he should be told right now.

Ask him, no, TELL him do do something about this cock-up at the convention
bureau right now.

If you, the ConCom don't, then you deserve everything that follows on, due
to your reluctance or incompetence to do what needs to be done.

And I don't want to hear one single word from any of you lot, because, as
the Mayor works for you, you, the ConCom are working for us, the fans and
attendees of the WorldCon.

If I have offended anyone, tough. For too long, this is something that has
needed to be said.

--
Rev. Jihad Frenzy

"Gadzooks!", quoth I, "But here's a saucy bawd!"

I, Libertine
by Fredrick R. Ewing

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

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On Mon, 11 May 1998 19:17:20 GMT, pop...@seaport.net (Liam Seamus
Howard) wrote:

>Does anyone know if the Hyatt Regency on Light Street is a Con Hotel?

No, it is not. A biologists' convention got it first.

>Can I get a Con discount if I'm staying there?

Not unless you're a biologist.

--

The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 4/24/98

Perrianne Lurie

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

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pop...@seaport.net (Liam Seamus Howard) wrote:

>Does anyone know if the Hyatt Regency on Light Street is a Con Hotel?

>Can I get a Con discount if I'm staying there?

>Liam
>Second World Con
>Fifth Con of any sort.
>New to fandom
>Age of 45 and I'm becoming a Scifi Fan.
>Scarey!

The Hyatt is NOT a BucCONeer hotel (The bioscience group that is using
the other half of the Convention Center is using the Hyatt and we're
not.), so you can't get a convention rate there.

Lenny Bailes

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May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98

to

I read the note, called a cycle of hotels and the
Housing Bureau again. Was informed of the same
shortage of rooms and told by both hotels and
housing bureau that my (confirmed)
reservation from Aug 6-9 could not be extended
to the 5th at the convention rate.

---
Lenny Bailes len...@slip.net

Craig Macbride

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98

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c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) writes:

>Several of my friends have decided that, if after jumping through all the
>new hoops placed in their path by Bucconeer to achieve the otherwise simple
>goal of getting a room, they don't get a room, they will write to the Mayor
>of Baltimore, explaining in great detail why they are not coming to
>Baltimore and leaving a large wad of cash behind. (and then going to
>Pennsic instead.)

>I suggested that they write him NOW and explain why it's unlikely they will
>be coming to Baltimore and leaving that wad of cash behind.

Post or email me his address, and I'll happily write to him and tell him how
international visitors feel about being screwed over by the deadshits at
BACVA.

Steve Miller

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98

to Craig Macbride

Well, if you can get to www.sunspot.net you get the Baltimore Sun
newspaper site. Maybe a few mentions to a newspaper proud of their
investigative journalism might make a difference, too.

Steve Miller

--

* PLAN B IS NOW IN EFFECT *
Visit The Authors of the Liaden Universe page
http://www.mint.net/~kinzel/ Kin...@mint.net

Brendan Ryder

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98

to

I have already sent my details to the Facilities division so I won't
reiterate all my problems, but basically anyone travelling from this
side of the pond is probably feeling the same as I am, that given the
substantial investment I am making in this holiday to the US, I want
as many of the basic details tied down as soon as possible.

I faxed my requirements to bacva at the end of February, and received
a form letter 2 months later which informed me that not only were we
being put into a hotel $45 a night dearer than the one we had placed
as our first choice, but we were only being accommodated for 5 out of
the 7 nights of our stay and that my husband was rooming with my best
friend!

A subsequent phone call to bacva got shunted onto an answering
machine, and no one has deigned to reply as yet.

I have gone the 'creative' route - I rang our hotel of choice and
booked the accommodation I originally requested for the nights I
needed at only $10 dearer than the convention rates.

Being a conrunner I appreciate the difficulties the convention
committee is facing but I have to proffer this advice - STOP BEING
NICE! Everyone deserves some hometruths being told to these guys.

Finally, we are taking our daughter to DisneyWorld following the con.
I made the original booking by email nearly a year ago, and had to
change the dates recently, again by email. Both messages were dealt
with extremely promptly and to my satisfaction. Now THERE is an
organisation that knows how to handle their guests :-)
Maybe BACVA could send someone on a course there?

Helen Ryder
bh...@iol.ie
Dublin, Ireland

ho clarence

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98

to

Perrianne Lurie (bucc...@pipeline.com) wrote:

: The Hyatt is NOT a BucCONeer hotel (The bioscience group that is using

: the other half of the Convention Center is using the Hyatt and we're
: not.), so you can't get a convention rate there.

Half? Which half?

rosen...@acm.org

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98

to

In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,

c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:
>
> Several of my friends have decided that, if after jumping through all the
> new hoops placed in their path by Bucconeer to achieve the otherwise simple
> goal of getting a room, they don't get a room, they will write to the Mayor
> of Baltimore, explaining in great detail why they are not coming to
> Baltimore and leaving a large wad of cash behind. (and then going to
> Pennsic instead.)
>
> I suggested that they write him NOW and explain why it's unlikely they will
> be coming to Baltimore and leaving that wad of cash behind.
>

> Forget all this let's co-operate with the Housing Bureau CRAP!
>
> Yell loud and long at the MAYOR of Baltimore and TELL him in no uncertain
> terms to get the bleep off his lazy bleeping ass and #1 fire the
> subcontractors NOW! #2, tell the convention bureau to hire a competent
> group to handle the reservations, NOW!
>
> And this applies doubly to all the Baltimore members of the ConCom. If you
> haven't forgotten, and it seems you have, YOU are running a business.
> Period. End Of Sentence. Why the bleep are you letting your business get
> screwed by an incompetent city bureaucracy?
>

No. They are not running a business. They are running a
nonprofit educational organization. If they were running
a business, most of us couldn't afford to go to a Worldcon.
How many concoms have you been on? Have you looked up what
people pay for memberships in professional conventions?

> No other company in Baltimore would stand for that for one sodding minute.
>
> Have you all forgotten that the Mayor is a public SERVANT? He works for
> YOU! Make him do his damned job, which is getting people to spend money in
> Baltimore. If one of his agencies is keeping people from doing that one
> thing, then he should be told right now.

The mayor's job is to govern the city. Getting people to spend
money is at most a very small part of that.

>
> Ask him, no, TELL him do do something about this cock-up at the convention
> bureau right now.
>
> If you, the ConCom don't, then you deserve everything that follows on, due
> to your reluctance or incompetence to do what needs to be done.
>
> And I don't want to hear one single word from any of you lot, because, as
> the Mayor works for you, you, the ConCom are working for us, the fans and
> attendees of the WorldCon.

I really like the idea of making demands of people and insisting that
they have no right to respond. But it doesn't wash. Note: I am not a
member of the Bucconeer committee; I'm speaking for myself here.

The ConCom isn't working for you. They are working *on* this project,
for reasons of their own--the desire to have a Worldcon to enjoy,
the desire to prove they can do it right, sheer altruism, the
desire for the egoboo. Not for money. "Working for me" implies
that I make the policies, and pay you to carry them out. You and
I haven't set the policies for this convention, and we certainly
aren't paying the people who are doing the work. Have you looked
up the hourly rate these folks are getting? It's zero. You
aren't paying them, you probably couldn't afford to pay them
(I certainly couldn't, and I have a decent job and no
dependents), you can't fire them, and if you want them to
do things for you under those circumstances, a bit of
politeness would probably help.

Next weekend, I'm going off to Madison, Wisconsin, paying
for my own plane ticket and my own hotel room, in order to,
among other things, put in quite a few hours producing a
convention newsletter. I'm not getting paid for this (though
I might get a partial refund of my con membership, if SF3
can afford it). I'm doing it because I like and care about
Wiscon, and the job needs doing. Being a volunteer doesn't
mean I get to do whatever the hell I want--I'll be working
with the con coordinator and other members of the concom, and
I'll accept help and listen to suggestions from just about
anyone. But it does mean that I don't expect people who are
only putting in $35 or even $50 (that's the at-the-door rate,
I think) to treat me as a lackey, because I'm not only
putting in $35 but donating my time and skills.

>
> If I have offended anyone, tough. For too long, this is something that has
> needed to be said.
>

You haven't offended me by demonstrating your ignorance of
how fannish conventions work; you have convinced me that it
is time once again to explain that we're all volunteers.
Fandom is a hobby, not a business.

Vicki
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Danny Low

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98

to

Brendan Ryder (bh...@iol.ie) wrote:
: I faxed my requirements to bacva at the end of February, and received

: a form letter 2 months later which informed me that not only were we
: being put into a hotel $45 a night dearer than the one we had placed
: as our first choice, but we were only being accommodated for 5 out of
: the 7 nights of our stay and that my husband was rooming with my best
: friend!

I am in the USA, sent in my form about the same time and also
got 5 out of the 7 nights I requested. I still have not gotten
an actual confirmation from the hotel, just the convention bureau.
When I called the hotel they had NO reservation for me from the
convention bureau.

Danny Low
"Question Authority and the Authorities will question You"
Valley of Hearts Delight, Silicon Valley
HP NSD dl...@ppg01.sc.hp.com

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/12/98

to

The east half. Bucconeer has the west half, which is newer.

Why do you care? I don't mean that to sound nasty; I'm honestly
curious about why you care which half of the convention center is
which.

Chris Croughton

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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Magi Shepley wrote:
>
> Okay, so if we gave up on the convention booking and went our own way to
> get hotel rooms we're supposed to let you know about that too? Or not?
> Sorry if it was in there, but I missed it.

Hi Magi! Long time no see...

Chris C

Rev. Jihad Frenzy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <6jachn$9c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rosen...@acm.org wrote:

> No. They are not running a business. They are running a
> nonprofit educational organization. If they were running
> a business, most of us couldn't afford to go to a Worldcon.
> How many concoms have you been on? Have you looked up what
> people pay for memberships in professional conventions?

I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they swear and
affirm that they will then provide me with admittance to their convention.
Service for money received. Sounds like a business to me. They have a
treasurer, whose job is to handle the accounts paid/accounts receivable and
to keep the books. Sounds like a business to me. Calling it a nonprofit
educational organization is a legal fiction, done for tax purposes.
Virtually all conventions do this.

I've been inviloved in most aspects of fandom since 1968. Including working
on cons. I know what goes on behind the scenes at and before a con.

>
> > No other company in Baltimore would stand for that for one sodding minute.
> >
> > Have you all forgotten that the Mayor is a public SERVANT? He works for
> > YOU! Make him do his damned job, which is getting people to spend money in
> > Baltimore. If one of his agencies is keeping people from doing that one
> > thing, then he should be told right now.
>
> The mayor's job is to govern the city. Getting people to spend
> money is at most a very small part of that.
>

Please! I LIVED in Baltimore for a spell. Schmoke is like every other Mayor
of a major American city with a declining job market. He would pimp his
mother if he thought it would bring in revenue, just like Mayor Mennino
here in Boston, Mayor Guliani in NYC and Mayor Brown in San Francisco.

In other words, the FIRST responsiblity of a Mayor is to pay the bills, and
he does that in Baltimore by bringing in the tourists. If the tourists are
pissed off at one of his bureaucracies, they are NOT coming to Baltimore
and leaving money behind them.

> >
> > Ask him, no, TELL him do do something about this cock-up at the convention
> > bureau right now.
> >
> > If you, the ConCom don't, then you deserve everything that follows on, due
> > to your reluctance or incompetence to do what needs to be done.
> >
> > And I don't want to hear one single word from any of you lot, because, as
> > the Mayor works for you, you, the ConCom are working for us, the fans and
> > attendees of the WorldCon.
>
> I really like the idea of making demands of people and insisting that
> they have no right to respond.

No, they don't have a right to respond, as they are the Hired Help. And the
Help doesn't have the right to talk back to the boss. Seeing as how this
fiasco has been brewing for months and months and apparently nothing
concrete has been done to fix the problem, except continue to work with the
bureaucrats who cocked up the whole thing in the first place, I don't
really see how there is anything they could say.

> But it doesn't wash. Note: I am not a
> member of the Bucconeer committee; I'm speaking for myself here.

As am I. I'm just refusing to sugarcoat my words and consider the feelings
of the concom as more important than those of the people who have given
them money, done everything right to get a room and still have no idea if
indeed they DO have a room during the convention.

>
> The ConCom isn't working for you. They are working *on* this project,
> for reasons of their own--the desire to have a Worldcon to enjoy,
> the desire to prove they can do it right, sheer altruism, the
> desire for the egoboo. Not for money. "Working for me" implies
> that I make the policies, and pay you to carry them out. You and
> I haven't set the policies for this convention, and we certainly
> aren't paying the people who are doing the work. Have you looked
> up the hourly rate these folks are getting? It's zero. You
> aren't paying them, you probably couldn't afford to pay them
> (I certainly couldn't, and I have a decent job and no
> dependents), you can't fire them, and if you want them to
> do things for you under those circumstances, a bit of
> politeness would probably help.

"Oh, if we just work with the Convention Bureau and the Housing Bureau,
then everything will be all right." The trouble with fandom is that we are
too polite and too tolorant. That may work in fandom, but in the real world
of civil servants, that's an open invitation for them to tell you to grab
your ankles. If they were merely putting on a convention for themselves,
they could hire a small hotel in the 'burbs and have at it. They are
putting on a WorldCon, they are expecting thousands of people. If they
don't have a place to stay, then, they aren't going to come to the
WorldCon. And in fandom, sometimes you have to yell and holler and get
their attention. Ask anyone who has seen the bullshit that occurs at
Lunarians meetings knows exactly what I mean.

>
> Next weekend, I'm going off to Madison, Wisconsin, paying
> for my own plane ticket and my own hotel room, in order to,
> among other things, put in quite a few hours producing a
> convention newsletter. I'm not getting paid for this (though
> I might get a partial refund of my con membership, if SF3
> can afford it). I'm doing it because I like and care about
> Wiscon, and the job needs doing. Being a volunteer doesn't
> mean I get to do whatever the hell I want--I'll be working
> with the con coordinator and other members of the concom, and
> I'll accept help and listen to suggestions from just about
> anyone. But it does mean that I don't expect people who are
> only putting in $35 or even $50 (that's the at-the-door rate,
> I think) to treat me as a lackey, because I'm not only
> putting in $35 but donating my time and skills.

Good for you. And what does that have to do with an uncaring city
bureaucracy and a concom that is still treating that bureaucracy as if that
bureaucracy is competent?

>
> >
> > If I have offended anyone, tough. For too long, this is something that has
> > needed to be said.
> >
>
> You haven't offended me by demonstrating your ignorance of
> how fannish conventions work; you have convinced me that it
> is time once again to explain that we're all volunteers.
> Fandom is a hobby, not a business.
>

If I'm spending $100+ a night for 5 nights. dropping money every day for
food, spending money to get there and return, the hobbyists had damn well
better be skilled at their hobby, or I'll choose to stay home and spend my
money locally, which will please Mayor Mennino no end.

Numismatics is a hobby. Philatily is a hobby. A WorldCon is a business. A
business regulated by local, state and federal laws. Just like every other
business.

If there is any ignorance here, I somehow don't think it involves my 30
some years of convention experiences.

I'm saying this because I have been going to and working on conventions
since 68.

And I'm getting sick of seeing cons getting screwed up, and the fans
getting screwed, because of either local politics or local fandom.

NolaCon II, ConDiego, LoneStarCon, all these have had serious
organizational problems that affected the con as seen by the attendees.

Disclave did not lose its hotel due to the antics of the Alt.Sex.Bondage
crowd, they lost it because they did not have a signed contract with the
hotel, merely a letter of intent (as relayed to me by someone who spoke to
Joe Mayhew at Balticon).

Ulrika

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, c...@NOSPAMgis.net

(Rev. Jihad Frenzy) writes:

>I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they
>swear and affirm that they will then provide me with admittance
>to their convention. Service for money received. Sounds
>like a business to me.

If this is the reason you give your money to a convention, then
you've misunderstood the nature of the transaction. If you
throw in some money into a collective pool to buy pizza and
beer for a Superbowl party, do you regard the friend who actually
collects the money and orders the pizza to be in a business?

"Yes, indeed, the Lord is a shoving leopard." -- Rev. W.A. Spooner
** Ulrika O'Brien-...@aol.com**

mike weber

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:

Since the Rev says he killfiled me, i presume he won't see this.

But what he is offering here is exactly the kind of "help" and
"advice" that hinders, rather than advances, the cause of getting
problems resolved.

What a surprise.

--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
The history of exploration is mostly the history of finding
new ways to die unexpectedly -- JWCjr, on the Apollo 1 fire

P Nielsen Hayden

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,
c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:

>In article <6jachn$9c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rosen...@acm.org wrote:
>
>> No. They are not running a business. They are running a
>> nonprofit educational organization. If they were running
>> a business, most of us couldn't afford to go to a Worldcon.
>> How many concoms have you been on? Have you looked up what
>> people pay for memberships in professional conventions?
>
>I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they swear and
>affirm that they will then provide me with admittance to their convention.
>Service for money received. Sounds like a business to me. They have a
>treasurer, whose job is to handle the accounts paid/accounts receivable and
>to keep the books. Sounds like a business to me. Calling it a nonprofit
>educational organization is a legal fiction, done for tax purposes.
>Virtually all conventions do this.
>
>I've been inviloved in most aspects of fandom since 1968. Including working
>on cons. I know what goes on behind the scenes at and before a con.

In other words, you're old enough to know better. That's useful information;
it tells us not to waste very much energy arguing with you.

>No, they don't have a right to respond, as they are the Hired Help. And the
>Help doesn't have the right to talk back to the boss.

For someone who talks such a big game about "federal law" as it applies to
businesses, you don't seem to have much actual grasp of it.

>If I'm spending $100+ a night for 5 nights. dropping money every day for
>food, spending money to get there and return, the hobbyists had damn well
>better be skilled at their hobby, or I'll choose to stay home and spend my
>money locally, which will please Mayor Mennino no end.

Frankly, while I've had my own annoyances with this Worldcon, I think a lot of
people will agree with me if I say that if it annoys you so much that you stay
home, we can regard this as a feature of Bucconeer, not a bug.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh

Gary Farber

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In <199805131428...@ladder01.news.aol.com> Ulrika <ulr...@aol.com> wrote:
: In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, c...@NOSPAMgis.net
: (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) writes:

: >I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they

: >swear and affirm that they will then provide me with admittance
: >to their convention. Service for money received. Sounds
: >like a business to me.

: If this is the reason you give your money to a convention, then

: you've misunderstood the nature of the transaction. If you
: throw in some money into a collective pool to buy pizza and
: beer for a Superbowl party, do you regard the friend who actually
: collects the money and orders the pizza to be in a business?

Besides, sf cons don't "swear and affirm. . . to provide. . . admittance."
They'll happily bar whomever they like and be within the law as private
groups to do so so long as it is not done because of race, religion, or
other forbidden category.

And Mr. Frenzy sounds like a fine person to show the door to, based on his
attitude towards con committees.
--
--
Copyright 1998 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US

Rev. Jihad Frenzy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <6jckiv$m...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:

> In <199805131428...@ladder01.news.aol.com> Ulrika
<ulr...@aol.com> wrote:
> : In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, c...@NOSPAMgis.net
> : (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) writes:
>
> : >I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they
> : >swear and affirm that they will then provide me with admittance
> : >to their convention. Service for money received. Sounds
> : >like a business to me.
>
> : If this is the reason you give your money to a convention, then
> : you've misunderstood the nature of the transaction. If you
> : throw in some money into a collective pool to buy pizza and
> : beer for a Superbowl party, do you regard the friend who actually
> : collects the money and orders the pizza to be in a business?
>
> Besides, sf cons don't "swear and affirm. . . to provide. . . admittance."
> They'll happily bar whomever they like and be within the law as private
> groups to do so so long as it is not done because of race, religion, or
> other forbidden category.
>
> And Mr. Frenzy sounds like a fine person to show the door to, based on his
> attitude towards con committees.

Gary, I have nothing but admiration for con committees. I know full well
what it takes to put on a con.

What I disparage is are the worldcon committees that seem to spend as much
time self-destructing or screwing up hugely as they do on actually
organizing the con.

I know some of the people on the Baltimore committee from my years of
attending (and in some cases working at) Balticons.

And this is what gripes me badly: I KNOW they could have handled this
housing cockup handily. I am not privy to what goes on at the committee
meetings, but makes me wonder going on that this hasn't been remidied.

I kick in a few bucks for pizza and diet coke and I don't get it, fine. No
great loss. Someone who is pre-registered and then discovers they don't
have a room, they are out their membership fee as it's non-refundable. And
how many people are going to be able to sell that membership if getting a
room is nigh-impossible?

And what of those folks who reserved and paid for airline tickets far in
advance and can't get a refund?

There's a lot more at stake then just a five spot, here, Gary.

From a personal standpoint, I know of at least 6 people who have discovered
that the hotel(s) they want to stay at have never heard of them and they
can't get anything out of the housing bureau.

And so far, that's six people who have decided to blow off Bucconeer and
eat the loss of a membership fee.

mike weber

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:

>And Mr. Frenzy sounds like a fine person to show the door to, based on his
>attitude towards con committees.

I feel almost honored to have been killfiled by him.

Bernard Peek

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis
.net>, "Rev. Jihad Frenzy" <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes

>And this is what gripes me badly: I KNOW they could have handled this
>housing cockup handily. I am not privy to what goes on at the committee
>meetings, but makes me wonder going on that this hasn't been remidied.

Possibly because they don't have enough people to handle the workload.
What has you contribution to Bucconeer been so far?

I'm disinclined to take much notice of complaints from people who
haven't put in the hours for the convention in question. The rule is, if
you can do better, do it. Plenty of time to bitch once you've fixed the
problem.

--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk

Danny Low

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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Brendan Ryder (bh...@iol.ie) wrote:
: I have gone the 'creative' route - I rang our hotel of choice and

: booked the accommodation I originally requested for the nights I
: needed at only $10 dearer than the convention rates.

From what I heard recently, the problem was with the convention
bureau. Among the many mistakes they alledgedly made was to take the
requested MINIMUM blocks as the MAXIMUM. The result was the hotels
thought the minimum was all there was and started releasing the
blocks for regular sale. The concom is working with the hotels on
the matter and expect to resolve the matter soon. Sometime in
June you might want to contact the hotel, identify yourself as
a Bucconeer attendee and see if they will lower the room price
to the convention rate.

Vicki Rosenzweig

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:

>In article <6jachn$9c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rosen...@acm.org wrote:
>
>> No. They are not running a business. They are running a
>> nonprofit educational organization. If they were running
>> a business, most of us couldn't afford to go to a Worldcon.
>> How many concoms have you been on? Have you looked up what
>> people pay for memberships in professional conventions?
>
>I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they swear and
>affirm that they will then provide me with admittance to their convention.
>Service for money received. Sounds like a business to me. They have a
>treasurer, whose job is to handle the accounts paid/accounts receivable and
>to keep the books. Sounds like a business to me. Calling it a nonprofit
>educational organization is a legal fiction, done for tax purposes.
>Virtually all conventions do this.

It's not just a legal fiction. It also reflects the difference between a
business--which hires people to do work--and a volunteer organization
that gets them to do it for free. Not all organizations are businesses.

>
>I've been inviloved in most aspects of fandom since 1968. Including working
>on cons. I know what goes on behind the scenes at and before a con.
>

>> >
>> > Ask him, no, TELL him do do something about this cock-up at the convention
>> > bureau right now.
>> >
>> > If you, the ConCom don't, then you deserve everything that follows on, due
>> > to your reluctance or incompetence to do what needs to be done.
>> >
>> > And I don't want to hear one single word from any of you lot, because, as
>> > the Mayor works for you, you, the ConCom are working for us, the fans and
>> > attendees of the WorldCon.
>>
>> I really like the idea of making demands of people and insisting that
>> they have no right to respond.
>
>No, they don't have a right to respond, as they are the Hired Help. And the
>Help doesn't have the right to talk back to the boss. Seeing as how this
>fiasco has been brewing for months and months and apparently nothing
>concrete has been done to fix the problem, except continue to work with the
>bureaucrats who cocked up the whole thing in the first place, I don't
>really see how there is anything they could say.

Let's see. If they are "the Hired Help," they have been hired by each of
a few thousand people. What if two of those so-called "employers"
give them directly contradictory instructions? Which do they obey,
and are they allowed to explain to the other why they aren't doing
what they've been told.

And do you really believe that anyone is giving up their right to speak
their mind for a salary of $0 a month, minus expenses? Let that idea
get around, and you'll have to run all the cons yourself, because
nobody else will be willing to do it.

Oh, and let me know what con you're working on, so I can buy a
membership, tell you how to run it, and fire you the moment you
suggest that you might possibly have some idea of how to do your
own job.

>
>> But it doesn't wash. Note: I am not a
>> member of the Bucconeer committee; I'm speaking for myself here.
>
>As am I. I'm just refusing to sugarcoat my words and consider the feelings
>of the concom as more important than those of the people who have given
>them money, done everything right to get a room and still have no idea if
>indeed they DO have a room during the convention.
>

<snip>

>>
>> Next weekend, I'm going off to Madison, Wisconsin, paying
>> for my own plane ticket and my own hotel room, in order to,
>> among other things, put in quite a few hours producing a
>> convention newsletter. I'm not getting paid for this (though
>> I might get a partial refund of my con membership, if SF3
>> can afford it). I'm doing it because I like and care about
>> Wiscon, and the job needs doing. Being a volunteer doesn't
>> mean I get to do whatever the hell I want--I'll be working
>> with the con coordinator and other members of the concom, and
>> I'll accept help and listen to suggestions from just about
>> anyone. But it does mean that I don't expect people who are
>> only putting in $35 or even $50 (that's the at-the-door rate,
>> I think) to treat me as a lackey, because I'm not only
>> putting in $35 but donating my time and skills.
>
>Good for you. And what does that have to do with an uncaring city
>bureaucracy and a concom that is still treating that bureaucracy as if that
>bureaucracy is competent?

What it has to do with is your odd idea that conrunners are menial
employees whom you can treat about as well as Nike treats the
people who add appliques to overpriced running shoes.

Vicki Rosenzweig
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
"Typos are Coyote padding through the language, grinning."
-- Susanna Sturgis

Rev. Jihad Frenzy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <C9fvHFAUBfW1EA$u...@intersec.demon.co.uk>, Bernard Peek
<b...@intersec.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis
> .net>, "Rev. Jihad Frenzy" <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes
>
>
> >And this is what gripes me badly: I KNOW they could have handled this
> >housing cockup handily. I am not privy to what goes on at the committee
> >meetings, but makes me wonder going on that this hasn't been remidied.
>
> Possibly because they don't have enough people to handle the workload.
> What has you contribution to Bucconeer been so far?
>

I live in Boston, I'm living on a fixed income and my chronic arthritis
limits my ability to travel.

What's your excuse?

Rev. Jihad Frenzy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <6jdbcl$gs_...@port.net.interport.net>, v...@interport.net (Vicki
Rosenzweig) wrote:

> In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,
c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:
> >In article <6jachn$9c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rosen...@acm.org wrote:
> >
> >> No. They are not running a business. They are running a
> >> nonprofit educational organization. If they were running
> >> a business, most of us couldn't afford to go to a Worldcon.
> >> How many concoms have you been on? Have you looked up what
> >> people pay for memberships in professional conventions?
> >
> >I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they swear and
> >affirm that they will then provide me with admittance to their convention.
> >Service for money received. Sounds like a business to me. They have a
> >treasurer, whose job is to handle the accounts paid/accounts receivable and
> >to keep the books. Sounds like a business to me. Calling it a nonprofit
> >educational organization is a legal fiction, done for tax purposes.
> >Virtually all conventions do this.
>
> It's not just a legal fiction. It also reflects the difference between a
> business--which hires people to do work--and a volunteer organization
> that gets them to do it for free. Not all organizations are businesses.
>

As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them
money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
really care if the employees are volunteers.

They are working for fandom as a whole, in general and the attendees in
particular. Of course, if you want to make absurd little analogies, go
right ahead.

> And do you really believe that anyone is giving up their right to speak
> their mind for a salary of $0 a month, minus expenses? Let that idea
> get around, and you'll have to run all the cons yourself, because
> nobody else will be willing to do it.
>

Sure they can speak all they want. But unless they have something worth
saying besides "We're working with the housing bureau", I'm not greatly
interested.

> Oh, and let me know what con you're working on, so I can buy a
> membership, tell you how to run it, and fire you the moment you
> suggest that you might possibly have some idea of how to do your
> own job.
>

Fire me as soon as I cock up as badly as we've seen NolaCon II, ConDiego,
and LoneStarCon cock up in their diverse ways.

> <rest snipped>
>

"<rest snipped>"

Yep, snip away where I mention my con credentials.

It doesn't invaldate the fact that having "been and done" on the con front,
I have a strong opinion on this housing cockup.

Oh, and currently, the count is at least 10 people who are not going to
Bucconear, as their hotels have no idea what they're talking about, viz
reservations.

Avram Grumer

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98

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In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, c...@gis.net
(Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:

> If I'm spending $100+ a night for 5 nights. dropping money every day for
> food, spending money to get there and return, the hobbyists had damn well
> better be skilled at their hobby, or I'll choose to stay home and spend my
> money locally, which will please Mayor Mennino no end.

I suspect it would please most of the attendees of Bucconeer as well.

--
Avram Grumer | av...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~avram/

Information wants to be wrong.

Gary Farber

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

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In rec.arts.sf.fandom <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>
Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:
[. . .]

: As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them

: money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
: really care if the employees are volunteers.

Then you're a fool.

[. . . .]

Morgan LH Gallagher

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

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In this post <199805131428...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Ulrika

<ulr...@aol.com> said:
>If this is the reason you give your money to a convention, then
>you've misunderstood the nature of the transaction. If you
>throw in some money into a collective pool to buy pizza and
>beer for a Superbowl party, do you regard the friend who actually
>collects the money and orders the pizza to be in a business?

God, the simplicity of that is just... breathtaking.

Rasseff award - for sheer excllence!

--
Morgan

"Come to the edge." he said. They said "We are afraid." "Come
to the edge." he said. They came. He pushed them...and they flew.

Ulrika

unread,

May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <XScBlYARWmW1Ew$K...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>, Morgan LH Gallagher
<Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> writes:

>Rasseff award - for sheer excllence!

Oooh. That's my cherry, I do believe.

Ray Radlein

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

Ulrika wrote:
>
> Morgan LH Gallagher <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> >Rasseff award - for sheer excllence!
>
> Oooh. That's my cherry, I do believe.

According to my records (and, as I mentioned before, having gone to the
trouble of rounding up and listing all RASFF Awards, I have been keeping
the list updated as necessary) it is. I was really quite stunned by that
fact, too.

There's actually several people who only have one RASFF Award or so whom
I would have expected would have the things up one side and down the
other.

- Ray R.

--
**********************************************************************
"Yes, orphan," Merlin said to Arthur, "you are now a True King; and it
is yourself that has made you so, as it must be. And now you realize
the second great truth -- that this is indeed the Magic Sword [...]
FOR THE MAGIC SWORD IS THE ONE WITH A TRUE KING AT THE HILT."

Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
**********************************************************************

mike weber

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

av...@interport.net (Avram Grumer) wrote:

>In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, c...@gis.net
>(Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:
>

>> If I'm spending $100+ a night for 5 nights. dropping money every day for
>> food, spending money to get there and return, the hobbyists had damn well
>> better be skilled at their hobby, or I'll choose to stay home and spend my
>> money locally, which will please Mayor Mennino no end.
>

>I suspect it would please most of the attendees of Bucconeer as well.
>

Hmmm. I may simply have been a week or two premature in my insults to
the Rev...

>Avram Grumer | av...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~avram/
>
>Information wants to be wrong.

--

Seth Breidbart

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,

Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:

>In article <6jdbcl$gs_...@port.net.interport.net>, v...@interport.net (Vicki
>Rosenzweig) wrote:
>> In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,
>c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:
>> >In article <6jachn$9c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rosen...@acm.org wrote:

>> >I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they swear and
>> >affirm that they will then provide me with admittance to their convention.

So long as they provide you with that, you have no complaints coming.

>> >Service for money received. Sounds like a business to me.

And we should care about this because?

>As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them
>money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
>really care if the employees are volunteers.

If you really wanted them to listen to you, you'd care.

>> >> > And I don't want to hear one single word from any of you lot, because, as
>> >> > the Mayor works for you, you, the ConCom are working for us, the fans and
>> >> > attendees of the WorldCon.

If you don't like what they're doing, why don't you fire them? (Start
with the Mayor.)

>> >No, they don't have a right to respond, as they are the Hired Help.

The last time I checked, the First Amendment applied to the Hired
Help.

>> > And the
>> >Help doesn't have the right to talk back to the boss.

So when are you planning on firing them?

>They are working for fandom as a whole, in general and the attendees in
>particular.

Since they are parts of that as well, they're working for themselves.

>Sure they can speak all they want. But unless they have something worth
>saying

they'd be just like you.

>> Oh, and let me know what con you're working on,

>Fire me as soon as I cock up as badly as we've seen NolaCon II, ConDiego,
>and LoneStarCon cock up in their diverse ways.

I notice you still haven't said anything about which conventions
you've supposedly worked on.

>"<rest snipped>"
>Yep, snip away where I mention my con credentials.

What credentials? I read that article, and you didn't name a single
job you've held at any convention. Which conventions (name and year)
did you chair? Were you Treasurer? Hotel Liaison? Ran programming?
etc. etc.

>It doesn't invaldate the fact that having "been and done" on the con front,

When and where?

>Oh, and currently, the count is at least 10 people who are not going to
>Bucconear, as their hotels have no idea what they're talking about, viz
>reservations.

The count is closer to 6 billion people who aren't going.

Seth

Seth Breidbart

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <6jab2j$3rk$1...@hpscit.sc.hp.com>,
Danny Low <dl...@ppg01.sc.hp.com> wrote:

>I am in the USA, sent in my form about the same time and also
>got 5 out of the 7 nights I requested. I still have not gotten
>an actual confirmation from the hotel, just the convention bureau.
>When I called the hotel they had NO reservation for me from the
>convention bureau.

I managed to get a reservation for all the nights I wanted at the
Hilton. (It helped that the Sales Manager of the Rye Town Hilton made
it for me; BACVA was worthless, they got me a reservation for the 3rd
and the 6th through 10th.)

Seth

Elspeth Kovar Burgess

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

Gary Farber wrote:

> In rec.arts.sf.fandom <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>

> Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:

> [. . .]

> : As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them

> : money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
> : really care if the employees are volunteers.

> Then you're a fool.

But, of course, we've already figured that out. <g>

What I haven't figured out is what he's trying to accomplish. I suspect
that he'd try to milk a cow by putting it in shackles and beating it
with a stick. If he's that offended, and unable to cooperate with other
people, I do hope that he chooses to *buy* his milk from a grocery store
-- in Boston.

(BTW, does anyone know who is behind this particular -- and apt --
screen name?)

Elspeth

Elspeth Kovar Burgess

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

Rev. Jihad Frenzy wrote:

> And so far, that's six people who have decided to blow off Bucconeer and
> eat the loss of a membership fee.

Then that's six (or ten, as you said elsewhere) people who are being
silly. There are still people who want memberships, and who would be
more than happy to pay cost for them. They, or you, if they're not on
the net, can just post the info here.

Now, back the discussion at hand. . .

Elspeth

Robert Sneddon

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <355A82...@learnlink.emory.edu>, Ray Radlein
<r...@learnlink.emory.edu> writes

>
>There's actually several people who only have one RASFF Award or so whom
>I would have expected would have the things up one side and down the
>other.

The Langford Effect, as it is known in Hugo Award circles.

Somewhere I have a picture of him holding his 2 Hugos from Conspiracy
up to the side of his head, seeing what they would look like as
earrings. His mantlepiece is already cluttered, and I don't think he's
carried out his threat to line them up the garden path like so many
skiffy versions of garden gnomes.

--
To reply by email, send to nojay (at) public (period) antipope (dot) org

Robert Sneddon

Stevens

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

Seth Breidbart wrote:

> I managed to get a reservation for all the nights I wanted at the
> Hilton. (It helped that the Sales Manager of the Rye Town Hilton made
> it for me; BACVA was worthless, they got me a reservation for the 3rd
> and the 6th through 10th.)

Seth, did you have to invoke any magic incantation to be sure your
room was within the reserved block? I've had problems with that in
the past.

--
Stevens R. Miller - Director, Technology & Online Forensics
DSFX International, Falls Church, VA - (703) 207-0600

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

On Thu, 14 May 1998 03:20:55 -0700, Elspeth Kovar Burgess
<ebur...@radix.net> wrote:

>Gary Farber wrote:
>
>> In rec.arts.sf.fandom <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>
>> Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:
>> [. . .]
>

>> : As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them

>> : money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
>> : really care if the employees are volunteers.
>

>> Then you're a fool.
>
>But, of course, we've already figured that out. <g>
>
>What I haven't figured out is what he's trying to accomplish.

What _I_ haven't figured out is why you people are wasting time on
someone I killfiled within a week of his first appearance here.

--

The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 4/24/98

Eugenia

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

Morgan LH Gallagher <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In this post <199805131428...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Ulrika
><ulr...@aol.com> said:
>>If this is the reason you give your money to a convention, then
>>you've misunderstood the nature of the transaction. If you
>>throw in some money into a collective pool to buy pizza and
>>beer for a Superbowl party, do you regard the friend who actually
>>collects the money and orders the pizza to be in a business?
>
>God, the simplicity of that is just... breathtaking.
>

>Rasseff award - for sheer excllence!

I hate to break this to you guys, but this reasoning has been
tried for health club memberships.

It didn't work. It was ruled a fee for admittance to a place
for entertainment or recreational purposes.

Avoid the private party analogy. It doesn't go over well with
agencies who have to really make a determination if something
qualifies as a business, or if the membership fee is taxable.

Ken Walton

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <355A82...@learnlink.emory.edu>, Ray Radlein
<r...@learnlink.emory.edu> writes

>Ulrika wrote:
>>
>> Morgan LH Gallagher <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>

>> >Rasseff award - for sheer excllence!
>>

>> Oooh. That's my cherry, I do believe.
>
>According to my records (and, as I mentioned before, having gone to the
>trouble of rounding up and listing all RASFF Awards, I have been keeping
>the list updated as necessary) it is. I was really quite stunned by that
>fact, too.
>

>There's actually several people who only have one RASFF Award or so whom
>I would have expected would have the things up one side and down the
>other.

But most RASFF awards are given for making people laugh, not sheer
excellence. I know I've never said anything sensible to get my awards.
Perhaps we should have categories...

--
Ken Walton mailto: k...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
=================================================================
Find the Role-Players' Tool Kit, a free generic rules-lite RPG at
http://kenjo.demon.co.uk ========================================
"Life without dead time." - Graffito, Paris 1968

David G. Bell

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <WnhSvCAM...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>
K...@kenjo.demon.co.uk "Ken Walton" writes:

> In article <355A82...@learnlink.emory.edu>, Ray Radlein
> <r...@learnlink.emory.edu> writes
> >Ulrika wrote:
> >>
> >> Morgan LH Gallagher <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >>
> >> >Rasseff award - for sheer excllence!
> >>
> >> Oooh. That's my cherry, I do believe.
> >
> >According to my records (and, as I mentioned before, having gone to the
> >trouble of rounding up and listing all RASFF Awards, I have been keeping
> >the list updated as necessary) it is. I was really quite stunned by that
> >fact, too.
> >
> >There's actually several people who only have one RASFF Award or so whom
> >I would have expected would have the things up one side and down the
> >other.
>
> But most RASFF awards are given for making people laugh, not sheer
> excellence. I know I've never said anything sensible to get my awards.
> Perhaps we should have categories...

But of course.

The introspective posting should be considered for the Navel Award,
unless they depend on a deep and heartfelt appreciation of A. E. Van
Vogt, in which case they qualify for a Navel-A Award, or not. Concise
postings about Pizza Parlours are shortlisted for the Short Sbarro
category, while any discussion of road journeys from New York to Boston
come under Fen Scenes.

--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

Irv Koch

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

mike weber wrote:

> c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:
> >In article <6jachn$9c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rosen...@acm.org wrote:

> >> No. They are not running a business. They are running a
> >> nonprofit educational organization. If they were running
> >> a business, most of us couldn't afford to go to a Worldcon.
> >> How many concoms have you been on? Have you looked up what
> >> people pay for memberships in professional conventions?
> >

> >I give (fill in the blank) con X number of dollars, because they swear and
> >affirm that they will then provide me with admittance to their convention.

> >Service for money received. Sounds like a business to me. They have a
> >treasurer, whose job is to handle the accounts paid/accounts receivable and
> >to keep the books. Sounds like a business to me. Calling it a nonprofit
> >educational organization is a legal fiction, done for tax purposes.

<snip>

> But what he is offering here is exactly the kind of "help" and
> "advice" that hinders, rather than advances, the cause of getting
> problems resolved.

Nope. Good advice. He's made the perfect case for the abolition of the
WorldCon, if for no other reason than to avoid cruel (but not unusual)
punishment to the poor people who TRY to run it. They'd then never have
contact with that particular troll.

Some of his other points have merit too, like HE should have to force a
real contract out of a hotel in certain cities, like
Baltimore-Washington, under today's situation, and with everything going
against him ... some of which really is the errors of ommision and
commission of previous fan con runners in that area.

Scott Zrubek

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

I must be blessed. On my second call (in early March) to BCVA a person
answered, told me my first choice was available and took my reservation.
A few days later, I received my confirmation from the BCVA. After hearing
all of the talk about gettinga confirmation from the hotel (and I have yet
to receive one), I called the hotel. They have me listed as they should.

The horror stories are scary, but there are a few pleasant ones hiding
under the boiled crabs.

>Elspeth

--
Scott Zrubek
http://www.itmm.com/scott/zelazny/

Seth Breidbart

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <355AE5...@erols.com>, Stevens <just...@erols.com> wrote:
>Seth Breidbart wrote:
>
>> I managed to get a reservation for all the nights I wanted at the
>> Hilton. (It helped that the Sales Manager of the Rye Town Hilton made
>> it for me; BACVA was worthless, they got me a reservation for the 3rd
>> and the 6th through 10th.)
>Seth, did you have to invoke any magic incantation to be sure your
>room was within the reserved block? I've had problems with that in
>the past.

Yes: the reservation was made by another Hilton Sales Manager, who can
basically do whatever she wants. (I sign the Lunacon hotel contracts,
so that hotel likes me, and it happens to be a Hilton.) Otherwise,
it's hard to get into the block (but some people have found comparable
rates using all sorts of other programs).

Seth

Avram Grumer

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98

to

In article <WnhSvCAM...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>, Ken Walton
<K...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> But most RASFF awards are given for making people laugh, not sheer
> excellence. I know I've never said anything sensible to get my awards.
> Perhaps we should have categories...

Under which one would _Watchmen_ be eligible?

--

Avram Grumer | av...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~avram/

"My whole life is interactive, and that doesn't mean a lot
of it doesn't suck" -- Daniel Radosh

mike weber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Eugenia <HORN...@isu.edu> wrote:

> Avoid the private party analogy. It doesn't go over well with
> agencies who have to really make a determination if something
> qualifies as a business, or if the membership fee is taxable.
>

However, the "educational foundation" definitiuon usually goes down a
treat.

mike weber

unread,

May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:

>The count is closer to 6 billion people who aren't going.
>

Thank Ghod.

unread,

May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

In article <6jf6gb$hak$1...@ux2.isu.edu>, Eugenia <HORN...@isu.edu> writes:

> I hate to break this to you guys, but this reasoning has been
> tried for health club memberships.
>
> It didn't work. It was ruled a fee for admittance to a place
> for entertainment or recreational purposes.

I, uh, hate to break this to you, but I wasn't talking about legal
status, courtroom defensibility, or anything like it. Whether
or not a court of law would regard a convention as a business
does not, ipso facto, simsalabim, make it one. Legal ontology
does not trump in all contexts.

unread,

May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

In article <scottz-1405...@max4-33.ghg.net>, sco...@itmm.com
(Scott Zrubek) wrote:

> >
>
> I must be blessed. On my second call (in early March) to BCVA a person
> answered, told me my first choice was available and took my reservation.
> A few days later, I received my confirmation from the BCVA. After hearing
> all of the talk about gettinga confirmation from the hotel (and I have yet
> to receive one), I called the hotel. They have me listed as they should.
>
> The horror stories are scary, but there are a few pleasant ones hiding
> under the boiled crabs.
>

> --
> Scott Zrubek
> http://www.itmm.com/scott/zelazny/

Sincere congratulations on your good fortune!

Yours must have been very near the top of the paper pile in Baltimore.

Kate Schaefer

unread,

May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

In a previous article, ebur...@radix.net (Elspeth Kovar Burgess) says:

>Gary Farber wrote:
>
>> In rec.arts.sf.fandom <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>
>> Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:
>> [. . .]
>
>> : As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them
>> : money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
>> : really care if the employees are volunteers.
>
>> Then you're a fool.
>

>But, of course, we've already figured that out. <g>
>

>What I haven't figured out is what he's trying to accomplish. I suspect
>that he'd try to milk a cow by putting it in shackles and beating it
>with a stick. If he's that offended, and unable to cooperate with other
>people, I do hope that he chooses to *buy* his milk from a grocery store
>-- in Boston.
>

>(BTW, does anyone know who is behind this particular -- and apt --
>screen name?)

When Loren asked back in April, he told us his name was Chris Tucker.
--
Kate Schaefer
ka...@scn.org

Ulrika

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, c...@NOSPAMgis.net

(Rev. Jihad Frenzy) writes:

>Well, isn't that special?
>
>And HOW informative it was, too.

No. We did already realize he was right.

Rev. Jihad Frenzy

unread,

May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.

For the most part, they agreed to one extent or another, with my opinions.
I thank you for your kind words.

One did want to know why I was so honked off, though.

Several reasons.

I'm annoyed at the bureaucracy that began this whole fiasco. The housing
bureau worked fine in '83 for ConStellation. I got my room in the con HQ
with no problems.

This year, they can't seem to find their backside with both hands.

I'm annoyed that the Baltimore people let it get this far. These are the
same folks who do Balticon, and save for the yahoos who go to cons merely
to break stuff, Balticons are smoothly run affairs. If my health and
finances permitted it, I would still be attending them.

I'm annoyed that two friends of mine, who were going to their first
WorldCon, on my urging that Baltimore is a great city for a con and that
the Baltimore fans know how to throw a con, now have no idea what's going
on with their room, all they know is that something they've been looking
forward to for years, now looks like it's not going to happen because the
housing bureau has no record of them ever contacting them, nor does their
hotel of choice have a reservation for them and cannot, at this time (it
seems) guarantee a room for the dates of the con for them. Their
dissapointment pains me greatly.

I'm annoyed that this whole thing took so long to come to light, so close
to the con, that a lot of people are going to suffer, including the ConCom.
Last time, it was the Lord Baltimore being closed that hosed the
ConStellation profit margin. Nothing they could do about that. In this
case, maybe if it had come out sooner that there were problems with the
reservations, more could have been done.

I'm annoyed that once again, a worldcon has problems that could have been
headed off. Now, it looks like Bucconeer will fall into the same catagory
as ConDiego and NolaCon II. I hope not, but I won't be surprised if there's
other problems behind the scenes we don't know about that may yet explode.
( I hope not, though.)

I'm annoyed that, given my knowlege of how things work in Baltimore (I
lived there for a while and paid close attention to local politics) nothing
will be done to fix the problem with the housing bureau. They'll get away
with their incompetence and Bucconeer gets screwed. We're just sci-fi fans.
We're not prestigious, we don't have the juice to get things done on a
political level. We're geeks, nerds, political non-entities. We Don't
Matter.

At least to City Hall and Mayor Schmoke.

So really, no matter how many letters and phone calls City Hall logs about
this, the bottom line is, in reality, "Screw 'em! They don't vote (the
majority of attendees will be from out of town) and more important, they
don't give me money to fund my re-election or my party."

So, yeah, I'm annoyed. I'm angry. And I committed the unforgivable sin, it
seems, of voicing my anger about something that should never have happened,
in rec.arts.sf.fandom.

Elisabeth Carey

unread,

May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Rev. Jihad Frenzy wrote:
>
> First con was a Lunacon. 1968 or so.
>
> Volunteered at diverse Boskones before I dropped that con when NESFA
> decided that since they made the nut for their clubhouse, they didn't need
> the money of mediafans and costumers any more and told them to bugger off.
> If my friends are not welcome at Boskone, then they don't see my money.
> (and as much as I disliked what NESFA became, they DO know how to run a
> large convention.)

That's not what happened.

After 1987, "The Boskone From Hell", we lost our hotel and
were blacklisted with every convention hotel in Boston. The
two closest sites capable of hosting anything even as large
as the [much smaller] post-1987 Boskones, that were willing
to talk contract with us, were Springfield, MA, and
Hartford, CT. And in order to get into either of those
sites, we had to give them some ironclad guarantees,
including some rules changes into which we inserted as many
loopholes as we could get away with. The letter in which we
announced this was not a masterpiece of felicitous
composition [although at the time it seemed perfectly clear
and straightforward to _us_:(], but it simply did not say
some of the things that people have believed for more than
ten years now that they read in it.

Lis Carey

Steve Glover

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, Rev. Jihad
Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes

>Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
>not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
>lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.

Current readers of alt.peeves will know there's currently a search on
for a word to describe such emails...

Steve
--
Steve Glover

Lenny Bailes

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Stevens wrote:
>
> Seth Breidbart wrote:
>
> > I managed to get a reservation for all the nights I wanted at the
> > Hilton. (It helped that the Sales Manager of the Rye Town Hilton made
> > it for me; BACVA was worthless, they got me a reservation for the 3rd
> > and the 6th through 10th.)
>
> Seth, did you have to invoke any magic incantation to be sure your
> room was within the reserved block? I've had problems with that in
> the past.
>

I'd like to know the answer to that, too. The Waterfront Hilton reservation
desk told me the best they could do on the 5th was $185 == any reservation
at the convention rate would have to come through the Housing Bureau.

---
Lenny Bailes len...@slip.net

Lenny Bailes

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Rev. Jihad Frenzy wrote:
>
> In article <6jdf3l$n...@news1.panix.com>, Gary Farber

> <gfa...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
>
> > In rec.arts.sf.fandom <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>
> > Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:
> > [. . .]
> >
> > : As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them
> > : money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
> > : really care if the employees are volunteers.
> >
> > Then you're a fool.
> >
>

> Well, isn't that special?
>
> And HOW informative it was, too.

Well, as Robert Crumb illustrated, in a classic issue of Zap
Comix, barging into the diner, banging your fist on the
counter, and demanding service is only half the trip!

---
Lenny Bailes len...@slip.net

David Langford

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

On Fri, 15 May 1998 07:16:56 +0100, Steve Glover <st...@fell.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

Many hundreds of people have e-mailed me with congratulations on my
restraint in not posting my own preferred word.

Dave
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/

Arthur Hlavaty

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Avram Grumer (av...@interport.net) wrote:
: In article <WnhSvCAM...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>, Ken Walton
: <K...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:

: > But most RASFF awards are given for making people laugh, not sheer
: > excellence. I know I've never said anything sensible to get my awards.
: > Perhaps we should have categories...

: Under which one would _Watchmen_ be eligible?

None. It would encourage people to send binaries.

--
Arthur D. Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust
\\\ E-zine available on request. ///

mike weber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

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c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:

>One comment was that, "Why do I feel like Charlie Brown and that Lucy is in
>Baltimore, holding the football and swearing u and down that THIS TIME she
>won't pull the ball away?"
>

Possibly because you (they) don't know enough about the process to
understand what's going on.

mike weber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

av...@interport.net (Avram Grumer) wrote:

>In article <WnhSvCAM...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>, Ken Walton
><K...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> But most RASFF awards are given for making people laugh, not sheer
>> excellence. I know I've never said anything sensible to get my awards.
>> Perhaps we should have categories...
>
>Under which one would _Watchmen_ be eligible?
>

It's not a Usenet post -- it's a comic book". J.G**dry.

mike weber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

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c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:

>In article <6jdf3l$n...@news1.panix.com>, Gary Farber
><gfa...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
>
>> In rec.arts.sf.fandom <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>
>> Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:
>> [. . .]
>>
>> : As far as I am concerned, if there is an exchange of funds, IE: I give them
>> : money, they sell me a membership, it is a business transaction. I don't
>> : really care if the employees are volunteers.
>>
>> Then you're a fool.
>>
>
>Well, isn't that special?
>
>And HOW informative it was, too.
>

Succinct, covered the ground, addressed all necessary issues. Seems
about right to me.

Of course, since you killfiled me, you won't be reading this.

mike weber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:

>Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
>not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
>lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>

>For the most part, they agreed to one extent or another, with my opinions.
>I thank you for your kind words.
>

"I have here in my hand..."

>One did want to know why I was so honked off, though.
>
>Several reasons.
>
>I'm annoyed at the bureaucracy that began this whole fiasco. The housing
>bureau worked fine in '83 for ConStellation. I got my room in the con HQ
>with no problems.
>
>This year, they can't seem to find their backside with both hands.
>
>I'm annoyed that the Baltimore people let it get this far. These are the
>same folks who do Balticon, and save for the yahoos who go to cons merely
>to break stuff, Balticons are smoothly run affairs. If my health and
>finances permitted it, I would still be attending them.

It would, therefore, seem as if you have been pouring out the vials of
your wrath on the wrong people, and know it, if the same people ((from
-this- end)) do it well in another context. This leads to the
conclusion that it may well be the -other- end of the process that's
broke and needs fixing -- and just -maybe- thse fans have little or no
control over the Other End

>
>I'm annoyed that two friends of mine, who were going to their first
>WorldCon, on my urging that Baltimore is a great city for a con and that
>the Baltimore fans know how to throw a con, now have no idea what's going
>on with their room, all they know is that something they've been looking
>forward to for years, now looks like it's not going to happen because the
>housing bureau has no record of them ever contacting them, nor does their
>hotel of choice have a reservation for them and cannot, at this time (it
>seems) guarantee a room for the dates of the con for them. Their
>dissapointment pains me greatly.

It doesn't make me very happy, either -- believe it or not. As a
matter of fact, if -you- were/are denied a room and your worldcon
plans are spoiled/cancelled because of it, -that'll- make me unhappy
too -- the fact that you annoy me no end here in rassf is no reason
that i should wish your fun spoiled in any -other- context Everyone
should be allowed to enjoy themselves as long as they're not hurting
others, and i really sympathise if you don't manage to both go and
haver a good time in Baltimore. ((I can't even afford to go, even if
i -had- a room...))

>
>I'm annoyed that this whole thing took so long to come to light, so close
>to the con, that a lot of people are going to suffer, including the ConCom.
>Last time, it was the Lord Baltimore being closed that hosed the
>ConStellation profit margin. Nothing they could do about that. In this
>case, maybe if it had come out sooner that there were problems with the
>reservations, more could have been done.

(A) WorldCons are non-profit/not-for-profit educational groups. They
do not have "profit margins". They may have "operating surpluses"

(B) ConStellation had other problems than the Lord Baltimore being
closed. Do you recall the word "DiamondVision", which was a byword
and a hissing in fandom for a long time afterwards ((rightly or
wrongly))?

>
>I'm annoyed that once again, a worldcon has problems that could have been
>headed off. Now, it looks like Bucconeer will fall into the same catagory
>as ConDiego and NolaCon II. I hope not, but I won't be surprised if there's
>other problems behind the scenes we don't know about that may yet explode.
>( I hope not, though.)
>
>I'm annoyed that, given my knowlege of how things work in Baltimore (I
>lived there for a while and paid close attention to local politics) nothing
>will be done to fix the problem with the housing bureau. They'll get away
>with their incompetence and Bucconeer gets screwed. We're just sci-fi fans.
>We're not prestigious, we don't have the juice to get things done on a
>political level. We're geeks, nerds, political non-entities. We Don't
>Matter.
>
>At least to City Hall and Mayor Schmoke.
>
>So really, no matter how many letters and phone calls City Hall logs about
>this, the bottom line is, in reality, "Screw 'em! They don't vote (the
>majority of attendees will be from out of town) and more important, they
>don't give me money to fund my re-election or my party."

You got it. So why were you roaring wrathfully at the Bucconeer
committee for not fixing what you yourself are conceding is not
fixable?

>
>So, yeah, I'm annoyed. I'm angry. And I committed the unforgivable sin, it
>seems, of voicing my anger about something that should never have happened,
>in rec.arts.sf.fandom.
>

The sin, if there was one, was in starting out yelling at people --
and at the wrong people at that.

mike weber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Steve Glover <st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, Rev. Jihad
>Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes

>>Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
>>not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
>>lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>

>Current readers of alt.peeves will know there's currently a search on
>for a word to describe such emails...
>

My immediate response to all such comments is "I have here in my
hand..."

--

mike weber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

Irv Koch <irv...@sprintmail.com> wrote:

>Some of his other points have merit too, like HE should have to force a
>real contract out of a hotel in certain cities, like
>Baltimore-Washington, under today's situation, and with everything going
>against him ... some of which really is the errors of ommision and
>commission of previous fan con runners in that area.

His own statement elsewhere has him involved with helping to run
Balticons and ConStellation.

Eugenia

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

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ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:

>In article <6jf6gb$hak$1...@ux2.isu.edu>, Eugenia <HORN...@isu.edu> writes:
>
>> I hate to break this to you guys, but this reasoning has been
>> tried for health club memberships.
>>
>> It didn't work. It was ruled a fee for admittance to a place
>> for entertainment or recreational purposes.
>

>I, uh, hate to break this to you, but I wasn't talking about legal
>status, courtroom defensibility, or anything like it. Whether
>or not a court of law would regard a convention as a business
>does not, ipso facto, simsalabim, make it one. Legal ontology
>does not trump in all contexts.

Yeah, I know, it's the "community of fandom" thing again.

Worldcon is part "fandom gathering", part "flea market", part
"art show", part "trade show", part "awards ceremony", part
"entertainment event", part "educational conference", and part
"annual meeting of the membership".

YOU might be there for the "fandom gathering" parts, somebody
ELSE might be there for the "trade show" part or the "educational
conference" part. Just because you are calling that part a "party",
doesn't make the entire event one, and it's kind of myopic to the
FIJAGDH folks for the FIAWOL folks to think that all attendees should
conform to their view of Worldcon.

Me, I don't usually pay $100.00 or more to get into a "party" and
I've given up trying to get into the "community". Too much real
world politics for one thing.

Gary Farber

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

In rec.arts.sf.fandom <355bb121...@news.mindspring.com> mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:
: se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:

:>The count is closer to 6 billion people who aren't going.
:>
: Thank Ghod.

: I remember how much trouble the caterers had supplying enough boiled
: crabs for just a thousand or less in 1983.

I've said ever since: never arm the fans.

One of the more frightening sights and sounds ever seen at a Worldcon: a
thousand fans pounding hammers in unison, demanding their crab.

--
--
Copyright 1998 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

In article <42troCAY...@fell.demon.co.uk>, Steve Glover
<st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, Rev. Jihad
> Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes
> >Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
> >not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
> >lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>
> Current readers of alt.peeves will know there's currently a search on
> for a word to describe such emails...
>

Or should I have said, "heard from others"?

Email it was and email it remains.

Kevin Standlee

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May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98

to

> In article <6jf6gb$hak$1...@ux2.isu.edu>, Eugenia <HORN...@isu.edu> writes:
>
> > I hate to break this to you guys, but this reasoning has been
> > tried for health club memberships.
> >
> > It didn't work. It was ruled a fee for admittance to a place
> > for entertainment or recreational purposes.

Not relevant. The health club was almost certainly NOT a 501(c)(3) type
organization. (Off the top of my head, I can't remember all of he 501(c)
subcategories, but one of them covers things like health clubs.)
501(c)(3) groups are a special case. As long as you behave like a
membership organization, you'll generally be treated like one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought from Kevin Standlee -> (stan...@LunaCity.com)
LunaCity BBS - Mountain View, CA - 650 968 8140

mike weber

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:

>In article <355c59ef...@news.mindspring.com>
> emsh...@aol.com "mike weber" writes:
>

>> Steve Glover <st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, Rev. Jihad
>> >Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes
>> >>Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
>> >>not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
>> >>lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>> >
>> >Current readers of alt.peeves will know there's currently a search on
>> >for a word to describe such emails...
>> >

>> My immediate response to all such comments is "I have here in my
>> hand..."
>
>-"...a piece of paper, signed by Herr Hitler..."-
>

No. I'm not that polite:

"...with the names of three hundred known Communists and fellow
travellers..."

mike weber

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

mjla...@erols.com (Marilee J. Layman) wrote:

>In <42troCAY...@fell.demon.co.uk>, Steve Glover

><st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, Rev. Jihad
>>Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes
>>>Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
>>>not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
>>>lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>>
>>Current readers of alt.peeves will know there's currently a search on
>>for a word to describe such emails...
>

>Bluffoons?
>
Ooooo. I -like- that . Actually, though, wouldn't that apply to the
person announcing he has the e-mails, rather than the e-mails
themselves?

mike weber

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

Gary Farber <gfa...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:

>In rec.arts.sf.fandom <355bb121...@news.mindspring.com> mike weber <emsh...@aol.com> wrote:

>: I remember how much trouble the caterers had supplying enough boiled

>: crabs for just a thousand or less in 1983.
>

>I've said ever since: never arm the fans.
>
>One of the more frightening sights and sounds ever seen at a Worldcon: a
>thousand fans pounding hammers in unison, demanding their crab.
>

Nah. The real pounding didn't begin till Clam Chowder began "The
Volga Boatmen". At which point Eva said "-I didn't think they'd pound
on the tables like that-". and i replied "Welcome to fandom, little
girl."

mike weber

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

Steve Miller <kin...@mint.net> wrote:

>mike weber wrote:

>> I remember how much trouble the caterers had supplying enough boiled
>> crabs for just a thousand or less in 1983.
>>

>I suspect they were *steamed* crabs. Marylanders know far better than to
>boil them!
>
Nitpicker.

Old Bay Crab Boil was, however, used.

Sharon L Sbarsky

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,

Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:
>In article <355BD776...@mediaone.net>, Elisabeth Carey
><lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>I did see a document that stated that they were contemplating limiting
>membership to people from "recognized SF groups", changing the name of the
>con to something that only real "readers" would recognize, and even seeing
>if a date trade could be arranged with Balticon.
>

I believe that you are misremembering a post to the USENET that was *never*
actual NESFA policy. The only thing that was actually close in the above
statement was that the "recoginzed SF groups" only applied to fans under 18,
but we also stated that we would help any young fan *find* a club if they
wanted help.

>And you folks did buy the clubhouse, it seems, immediately following that
>last big Boskone.
>

No, the clubhouse was bought in 1986, before that Boskone, though we almost
bought a different property in 1985.

Sharon

Seth Breidbart

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,
Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:

>Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
>not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
>lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>

>For the most part, they agreed to one extent or another, with my opinions.

"The lurkers support me in email." There's something in one of the
news.announce.newusers faqs about that argument.

Seth

Avram Grumer

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

In article <42troCAY...@fell.demon.co.uk>, Steve Glover
<st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, Rev. Jihad

> Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes

>
> >Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
> >not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
> >lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>

> Current readers of alt.peeves will know there's currently a search on
> for a word to describe such emails...

I'm reminded of _Dave Barry Slept Here_, in which Nixon says he has a
Secret Plan To End The Vietnam War, which he buries in a mayonnaise jar in
the White House lawn. Unfortunately, that doesn't suggest to me anything
especially clever for the alt.peeves folks.

--
Avram Grumer | av...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~avram/

"Homer, the sea isn't wine-colored." "D'oh!"

Jo Walton

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

In article <6jj83d$b...@panix3.panix.com> se...@panix.com "Seth Breidbart" writes:

> In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,

> Rev. Jihad Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> wrote:
> >Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
> >not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
> >lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
> >

> >For the most part, they agreed to one extent or another, with my opinions.
>
> "The lurkers support me in email." There's something in one of the
> news.announce.newusers faqs about that argument.

(To the tune of "My Bonny lies over the ocean")

The Lurkers support me in email
They all think I'm great don't you know.
You posters just don't understand me
But soon you will reap what you sow.

Lurkers, lurkers, lurkers support me, you'll see, you'll see
off in e-mail the lurkers support me, you'll see.

The lurkers support me in email

"So why don't they post?" you all cry
They're scared of your hostile intentions
they just can't be as brave as I.

Lurkers etc.

One day I'll round up all my lurkers
we'll have a newsgroup of our own
without all this flak from you morons
my lurkers will post round my throne.

Lurkers etc.

Not necessarily aimed exclusively at Mr. Frenzy, I've just seen
that argument so many times elsewhere that I think even if it
is true that lurkers support you in email it is doing to do your
case far more harm than good to say so.

--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Blood of Kings Poetry; rasfw FAQ;
Reviews; Interstichia; Momentum - a paying market for real poetry.

Chris Croughton

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

Jo Walton wrote:

> (To the tune of "My Bonny lies over the ocean")

Jo, I'm horrified! /You/ posting filk to a Serious Fannish Newsgroup?
(Do you object if I repost it to rec.music.filk?)

> Not necessarily aimed exclusively at Mr. Frenzy, I've just seen
> that argument so many times elsewhere that I think even if it
> is true that lurkers support you in email it is doing to do your
> case far more harm than good to say so.

Indeed it is, it will be taken as a claim which can't be backed up ("Oh,
posting private email is wrong so I couldn't tell you who all these
supporters are").

It's a bit like the pubic opinion polls which proclaim "90% of the
people in the country support the government" - funny, they didn't ask
anyone I know...

Chris C

Alan Woodford

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98

to

On Fri, 15 May 1998 07:16:56 +0100, Steve Glover
<st...@fell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>, Rev. Jihad

>Frenzy <c...@NOSPAMgis.net> writes

>>Several people emailed me, concerning my comments and opinions. As they did
>>not expressly grant permission to quote them, I shall respect their wishes,
>>lest they be contaminated via guilt by association.
>

>Current readers of alt.peeves will know there's currently a search on
>for a word to describe such emails...
>

Non-existant?

Alan "posting the obvious, I suppose" Woodford

Men in Frocks, protecting the Earth with mystical flummery!