Pushy Pros (Was: What's important to
Janice Gelb
>In article <37ED7F6D...@LunaCity.com>,
>Kevin Standlee <standle...@menlolog.com> wrote:
>>Alison Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> It is a common belief amongst UK (and US?) conrunners that US pro
>>> writers attending a convention have to appear on a programme item in
>>> order to be able to write the convention off against tax.
>>
>>Actually, I've heard it spouted by the pro (and wannbe-pro)
>>writers far more often than the conrunners. And it's not true,
>>either. However, if I ever run Programming again, I'm sorely
>>tempted to take all of those "I've got to be on a panel in order
>
>Maybe I am missing something. If these people are pros, and you
>wanted them at your convention (maybe this is what I am missing--
>are you talking about pros that just wander in off the street?)
Yes. If they'd been invited to be on programming, they'd
already *be* on a panel.
>it would seem to me that there would be at least one thing going
>on at the convention that you would want them to be involved in.
>And they wouldn't have bothered to come the the convention, tax
>deduction or no, unless there was at least one thing going on at
>the convention that they thought was worthwhile.
>
Yes, the thing going on at the convention that they think is
worthwhile is more buyers of their books. I sat through an
infamous Westercon panel called "Cons and Pros" where a
neopro absolutely could not understand why conventions
wouldn't comp her membership if she wasn't on programming.
We tried to explain that just her mere physical presence
didn't do anything for the con; if she wasn't on programming,
we hadn't used her name in publicity in the list of attendees
so the con wasn't getting anything out of her being there.
She insisted that just the mere fact that she physically
was there and a writer made a difference. Also, that since
she had to be "on" for her fans all the time, even if she
had a headache or whatever, and since it was costing her
all this money to be there, she should be provided with
a free membership. Our rejoinder that it if was costing
her that much money she should just stay home if she
didn't want to be there or couldn't face being available
to her fans all the time didn't work.
The best moment came when Jo Clayton (bless her heart)
chimed in from the audience that whenever she arrived
unannounced at a convention she just paid for her
membership...
*****************************************************************
Janice Gelb | The only connection Sun has with
janic...@eng.sun.com | this message is the return address.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8018/index.html
"These are my opinions. If they were the Biblical truth, your
bushes would be burning" -- Randy Lander
James Nicoll
Janice Gelb <jan...@eng.sun.com> wrote:
>
snip
>
>Yes, the thing going on at the convention that they think is
>worthwhile is more buyers of their books. I sat through an
>infamous Westercon panel called "Cons and Pros" where a
>neopro absolutely could not understand why conventions
>wouldn't comp her membership if she wasn't on programming.
>
didn't expect to get comped because I was doing very little and
what I was doing I was doing because I enjoyed it, plus I am not
a Name, just a very minor bookseller. As I expected, I didn't get
comped and I found that perfectly fair.
Someone -else- got angry that I didn't get comped and wanted
me to be angry too. I summed up the positives of getting pissed [good
cardio workout] vs the negatives [I'd have been in the wrong, I'd never
get to do any of the things I was enjoying doing there again[1]] and
skipped it. It was funny, though.
James Nicoll
--
"You know, it's getting more and more like _Blade Runner_ down
here."
A customer commenting on downtown Kitchener
Beth Friedman
>In article <7soatn$bvm$1...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>,
>Janice Gelb <jan...@eng.sun.com> wrote:
>>
> snip
>>
>>Yes, the thing going on at the convention that they think is
>>worthwhile is more buyers of their books. I sat through an
>>infamous Westercon panel called "Cons and Pros" where a
>>neopro absolutely could not understand why conventions
>>wouldn't comp her membership if she wasn't on programming.
>>
> I had a really odd thing happen wrt comps at Minicon. I
>didn't expect to get comped because I was doing very little and
>what I was doing I was doing because I enjoyed it, plus I am not
>a Name, just a very minor bookseller. As I expected, I didn't get
>comped and I found that perfectly fair.
Was that at this year's Minicon? If so, you don't have to feel personally
excluded; we didn't comp anybody except guests of honor and former guests of
honor. New (and planned to be ongoing) policy this year.
> Someone -else- got angry that I didn't get comped and wanted
>me to be angry too. I summed up the positives of getting pissed [good
>cardio workout] vs the negatives [I'd have been in the wrong, I'd never
>get to do any of the things I was enjoying doing there again[1]] and
>skipped it. It was funny, though.
Well, as head of Minicon 34 programming, I appreciate your not getting
angry.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
James Nicoll
Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote in message <7soeun$5cf$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>...
>>In article <7soatn$bvm$1...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>,
>>Janice Gelb <jan...@eng.sun.com> wrote:
>>>
>> snip
>>>
>>>Yes, the thing going on at the convention that they think is
>>>worthwhile is more buyers of their books. I sat through an
>>>infamous Westercon panel called "Cons and Pros" where a
>>>neopro absolutely could not understand why conventions
>>>wouldn't comp her membership if she wasn't on programming.
>>>
>> I had a really odd thing happen wrt comps at Minicon. I
>>didn't expect to get comped because I was doing very little and
>>what I was doing I was doing because I enjoyed it, plus I am not
>>a Name, just a very minor bookseller. As I expected, I didn't get
>>comped and I found that perfectly fair.
>
>Was that at this year's Minicon? If so, you don't have to feel personally
>excluded; we didn't comp anybody except guests of honor and former guests of
>honor. New (and planned to be ongoing) policy this year.
That's ok: I would have been amazed if I had been because as I
say above, I wouldn't have felt I deserved it.
>> Someone -else- got angry that I didn't get comped and wanted
>>me to be angry too. I summed up the positives of getting pissed [good
>>cardio workout] vs the negatives [I'd have been in the wrong, I'd never
>>get to do any of the things I was enjoying doing there again[1]] and
>>skipped it. It was funny, though.
>
>Well, as head of Minicon 34 programming, I appreciate your not getting
>angry.
>
Wasn't anything to get angry over.
Nancy Lebovitz
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>
> I had a really odd thing happen wrt comps at Minicon. I
>didn't expect to get comped because I was doing very little and
>what I was doing I was doing because I enjoyed it, plus I am not
>a Name, just a very minor bookseller. As I expected, I didn't get
>comped and I found that perfectly fair.
>
>me to be angry too. I summed up the positives of getting pissed [good
A friend of mine claims that defenders tend to be angrier than principals
in usenet quarrels. Perhaps this rule can be generalized.
>cardio workout] vs the negatives [I'd have been in the wrong, I'd never
>get to do any of the things I was enjoying doing there again[1]] and
Were you planning to have a footnote?
>skipped it. It was funny, though.
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com
Calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
James Nicoll
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> wrote:
>In article <7soeun$5cf$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>,
>James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>>
>> I had a really odd thing happen wrt comps at Minicon. I
>>didn't expect to get comped because I was doing very little and
>>what I was doing I was doing because I enjoyed it, plus I am not
>>a Name, just a very minor bookseller. As I expected, I didn't get
>>comped and I found that perfectly fair.
>>
>> Someone -else- got angry that I didn't get comped and wanted
>>me to be angry too. I summed up the positives of getting pissed [good
>
>A friend of mine claims that defenders tend to be angrier than principals
>in usenet quarrels. Perhaps this rule can be generalized.
>
>>cardio workout] vs the negatives [I'd have been in the wrong, I'd never
>>get to do any of the things I was enjoying doing there again[1]] and
>
>Were you planning to have a footnote?
>
threw a hissy fit for the reasons I was supposed to, I put them on the
'trouble: avoid' list.
Patricia Novak
On 27 Sep 1999, Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
> A friend of mine claims that defenders tend to be angrier than principals
> in usenet quarrels. Perhaps this rule can be generalized.
I'm not sure what you mean by "defenders" and "principals" in this case.
Would you be willing to explain? Thanks.
Patricia
Vicki Rosenzweig
wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote in message <7soeun$5cf$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>...
>>In article <7soatn$bvm$1...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>,
>>Janice Gelb <jan...@eng.sun.com> wrote:
>>>
>> snip
>>>
>>>Yes, the thing going on at the convention that they think is
>>>worthwhile is more buyers of their books. I sat through an
>>>infamous Westercon panel called "Cons and Pros" where a
>>>neopro absolutely could not understand why conventions
>>>wouldn't comp her membership if she wasn't on programming.
>>>
>> I had a really odd thing happen wrt comps at Minicon. I
>>didn't expect to get comped because I was doing very little and
>>what I was doing I was doing because I enjoyed it, plus I am not
>>a Name, just a very minor bookseller. As I expected, I didn't get
>>comped and I found that perfectly fair.
>
>Was that at this year's Minicon? If so, you don't have to feel personally
>excluded; we didn't comp anybody except guests of honor and former guests of
>honor. New (and planned to be ongoing) policy this year.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I was surprised when Lunacon
_did_ comp me because I was on one panel. Wiscon offers partial
comps to program participants (I say "offers" because it's an
after-con refund, and there's a sheet in the Green Room to sign
if you want to decline the comp); the one Worldcon I was on
programming for gave me free juice (I suspect I could have had
alcohol if I'd wanted, since it was in Scotland) but didn't
comp me, nor did I expect them to.
I do programming at cons because (a) I usually enjoy it, and
(b) it's part of contributing to fandom, not because I need
or expect a free con membership.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@interport.net
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/rassef-faq.html
"I get by with a little help from my friends." -- Lennon/McCartney
Patricia Novak
On 28 Sep 1999, Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
> Suppose that A and B start an argument/flamewar. They're principals.
>
> C thinks that one of them is being badly treated and steps in. C is
> a defender.
Thanks for the clarification.
Patricia
Alyson L. Abramowitz
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>
> I do programming at cons because (a) I usually enjoy it, and
> (b) it's part of contributing to fandom, not because I need
> or expect a free con membership.
How did you determine this? Did you hop on to a panel at your first con?
Probably not. My suspicion is that most fans end up on panels after they
have been to at least a few cons and have a feel for fandom.
We also attempt to provide panels for neos at larger cons. We don't do
the same for pros who come into fandom after being a pro. Is it
surprising that they don't have a clue how to behave? They come using
acceptable behavior from whatever groups they do know. Maybe we need a
Introduction to Fandom for Pros panel with required attendance if you
are on a panel. It might help some of the cross-overs from non-written
media too.
Best,
Alyson
Vicki Rosenzweig
wrote:
>
>
>Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>>
>
>> I do programming at cons because (a) I usually enjoy it, and
>> (b) it's part of contributing to fandom, not because I need
>> or expect a free con membership.
>
>How did you determine this? Did you hop on to a panel at your first con?
>Probably not. My suspicion is that most fans end up on panels after they
>have been to at least a few cons and have a feel for fandom.
Yup.
>
>We also attempt to provide panels for neos at larger cons. We don't do
>the same for pros who come into fandom after being a pro. Is it
>surprising that they don't have a clue how to behave? They come using
>acceptable behavior from whatever groups they do know. Maybe we need a
>Introduction to Fandom for Pros panel with required attendance if you
>are on a panel. It might help some of the cross-overs from non-written
>media too.
I think I've seen "intro to fandom" material for new pros in
Worldcon publications; a panel might be useful as well, if the
right people were willing to be on it.
But none of this is going to do much to deal with the people who
push their way onto panels--people who'll do that will lie about
whether they've had the prerequisite coursework^W panel.
Alyson L. Abramowitz
Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>
> >Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
> I think I've seen "intro to fandom" material for new pros in
> Worldcon publications; a panel might be useful as well, if the
> right people were willing to be on it.
I must have missed this. Has there really been such an article? Can
someone cite a reference (particularly one on-line)?
> But none of this is going to do much to deal with the people who
> push their way onto panels--people who'll do that will lie about
> whether they've had the prerequisite coursework^W panel.
There is no way to make the world free from idiots. I'm certain we could
all name our favorite ones who have been fans forever. What it would do
would be to help the ignorant who don't even realize that they are
ignorant. We might actually help out ourselves in the process (maybe a
few of those neo-pros might fade into respectable fans).
I don't know if the Pushy Pro would have that much problems with going
to a panel required of them introducing them to the con/fandom
experience. If it were set up with say an Editor, Big Name Pro, and a
fan on it, they might even see it as an opportunity. Just a thought.
Best,
Alyson
Nancy Lebovitz
C thinks that one of them is being badly treated and steps in. C is
a defender.
--
Elisabeth Carey
>
> Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
> >
>
> > >Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>
> > I think I've seen "intro to fandom" material for new pros in
> > Worldcon publications; a panel might be useful as well, if the
> > right people were willing to be on it.
>
> I must have missed this. Has there really been such an article? Can
> someone cite a reference (particularly one on-line)?
At a minimun, and making the wildly improbable assumption that there
are no other similar materials produced at any time anywhere, there's
Susan Shwartz's _A Neopro's Guide to Fandom and Condom_, which has
been published a number of times in connection with different
conventions. I'm not aware of it being online anywhere, unfortunately.
> > But none of this is going to do much to deal with the people who
> > push their way onto panels--people who'll do that will lie about
> > whether they've had the prerequisite coursework^W panel.
>
> There is no way to make the world free from idiots. I'm certain we could
> all name our favorite ones who have been fans forever. What it would do
> would be to help the ignorant who don't even realize that they are
> ignorant. We might actually help out ourselves in the process (maybe a
> few of those neo-pros might fade into respectable fans).
I think lots of us have done this, and has success with many neopros,
the ones whose problem was unfamiliarity with the folkways of fandom,
and the ways in which sf conventions are different from other settings
in which they may have previously made public appearances to promote
their books. We're not, or at least I'm not, talking about those. I'm
talking about the idiots, who _don't_ listen when patient and helpful
explanations are offered to them, and who don't learn from their
mistakes because they're incapable of recognizing their mistakes.
There are enough of them to be a serious annoyance, even though, yes,
they are a minority.
> I don't know if the Pushy Pro would have that much problems with going
> to a panel required of them introducing them to the con/fandom
> experience. If it were set up with say an Editor, Big Name Pro, and a
> fan on it, they might even see it as an opportunity. Just a thought.
Some of them, many of them, would be happy to go to such a panel, or
avail themselves of other educational material--_but_ _not_ _the_
_problem_ _ones_. The ones who respond positively to various
educational efforts, whether from concoms or other pros, are _not_ the
ones who, for instance, recruit the help of the wife of the Guest of
Honor with a false story, after you've spent a good deal of time
already explaining to them why they can't be on the panel they want to
be on. Really.
Lis Carey
Gary Farber
: On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:28:54 -0700, "Alyson L. Abramowitz" <a...@best.com>
: wrote:
[. . .]
:>We also attempt to provide panels for neos at larger cons. We don't do
:>the same for pros who come into fandom after being a pro. Is it
:>surprising that they don't have a clue how to behave? They come using
:>acceptable behavior from whatever groups they do know. Maybe we need a
:>Introduction to Fandom for Pros panel with required attendance if you
:>are on a panel. It might help some of the cross-overs from non-written
:>media too.
: I think I've seen "intro to fandom" material for new pros in
: Worldcon publications; a panel might be useful as well, if the
: right people were willing to be on it.
From *our* POV, this is a fine idea. But there are a few practical
problems with it (I've thought about this a lot over the years, and have
had, in my on-and-off minor professional capacity, a lot of, uh,
experiences where the issue has been very, uh, relevant):
1) Few cons have enough neo-pros in attendance to make them large enough
in number to be a panel *audience*, and almost never enough will actually
show up voluntarily for it to be worthwhile.
It might be more worthwhile at a Nebula weekend, but this brings us to
problem
2) They'd often only listen to someone who impresses them with Authority.
Older and wiser pros, maybe, and most of all probably to editors,
particularly their editor. And I've actually had a certain amount of
experience in coaching new writers on "what is fandom" and "what you
should do at your first con" and have even gone to cons and gotten
neo-writers to come by letting them sleep in my room. (I'm sure Patrick
has vastly more experience at this sort of thing, and obviously has vastly
more Mana to do it with.)
And my experience is that It Ain't Easy, and it's just darned difficult to
explain fandom to someone experiencing it for the first time when, in
particular, their experience is as a pro, and they often simply won't end
up experiencing many aspects of fandom, nor wanting to. Fandom is a
learning experience, and you have to actually be interested. Often many,
though thankfully not all, neopros simply won't have the interest, or at
least not enough to overcome the initial impression that fandom consists
of a bunch of twits and nerds.
: But none of this is going to do much to deal with the people who
: push their way onto panels--people who'll do that will lie about
: whether they've had the prerequisite coursework^W panel.
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; For Hire as: Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; Northeast US
Leah Zeldes
>
> I think I've seen "intro to fandom" material for new pros in
> Worldcon publications; a panel might be useful as well, if the
> right people were willing to be on it.
We programmed such a panel at LoneStarCon: "What Every
Pro Should Know About Fandom." Patrick was on it, and
Priscilla Olson and Mike Resnick and I forget who else,
but a mix of pros who'd come up through fandom and
longtime fans, especially those with con programming
experience.
It seemed to go fairly well. It would probably have
done better if there hadn't had to be an emergency room
switch due to a flood; the new room was hard to get to.
I recommend the concept. Other ideas in the same vein:
"How to Win Friends and Influence Con Committees" and
"How Not to be an Asshole."
Leah Zeldes Smith
Evelyn C. Leeper
Leah Zeldes <la...@enteract.com> wrote:
> > >Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>
> > I think I've seen "intro to fandom" material for new pros in
> > Worldcon publications; a panel might be useful as well, if the
> > right people were willing to be on it.
> "How to Win Friends and Influence Con Committees" and
> "How Not to be an Asshole."
I would think a panel called "How Not to be an Asshole" and having good
people on it wouldn't even need a description to draw a large crowd.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://www.geocities.com/evelynleeper
"There are two types of people in this world: those who think giant steam
powered robotic spiders are stupid, and those who don't." --Bryan F. Theiss
Lydia Nickerson
>1) Few cons have enough neo-pros in attendance to make them large enough
>in number to be a panel *audience*, and almost never enough will actually
>show up voluntarily for it to be worthwhile.
>It might be more worthwhile at a Nebula weekend, but this brings us to
>problem
>2) They'd often only listen to someone who impresses them with Authority.
How 'bout a couple three old and wise pros reminiscing about their early
days as a fan and the really stupid things they did, and other people did,
and why it wasn't such a good idea, and stuff? I'd go to that.
--
----
Lydia Nickerson ly...@demesne.com ly...@dd-b.net
Elaine Y. Fisher
>
> How 'bout a couple three old and wise pros reminiscing about their early
> days as a fan and the really stupid things they did, and other people did,
> and why it wasn't such a good idea, and stuff? I'd go to that.
Hate to say "me too," but . . .
me too.
Elaine
Jo Walton
lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
> At a minimun, and making the wildly improbable assumption that there
> are no other similar materials produced at any time anywhere, there's
> Susan Shwartz's _A Neopro's Guide to Fandom and Condom_, which has
> been published a number of times in connection with different
> conventions. I'm not aware of it being online anywhere, unfortunately.
Anyone got a copy of this I could borrow? This whole thread is about
making me want to crawl under the desk, TBH.
I've been on programme tons of times because I'm me. The two of the
last three cons I've been to I was asked to be on panels about having
sold a novel, and that's the _only_ panels I was on at those cons.
At Wincon I did gently explain to one neopro that I really wasn't there
to "network" and I really would have been there whether I'd sold a novel
or not.
As for comping, I've had membership comped a few times when I was rock
bottom poor and doing a whole lot of programme such that required a
lot of preparation. In fact I was comped for the first few cons I did
this for so easily and so much without my asking that I thought it was
the normal thing, and got very embarrassed when I found out it wasn't.
There were at least two cons I've been to that I've done that where I
could not have afforded if I'd had to pay membership - hitch-hiked there,
crashed in very shared floor space, didn't eat much. I'm not going to
say what cons, because I'm not sure how long being sworn to secrecy about
these things lasts.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Interstichia; Poetry; RASFW FAQ; etc.
Gary Farber
: Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> writes:
:>1) Few cons have enough neo-pros in attendance to make them large enough
:>in number to be a panel *audience*, and almost never enough will actually
:>show up voluntarily for it to be worthwhile.
:>It might be more worthwhile at a Nebula weekend, but this brings us to
:>problem
:>2) They'd often only listen to someone who impresses them with Authority.
: How 'bout a couple three old and wise pros reminiscing about their early
: days as a fan and the really stupid things they did, and other people did,
: and why it wasn't such a good idea, and stuff? I'd go to that.
That seems a good way to encode it. Mind, I don't mean to sound too
negative about this sort of stuff; certainly considerable number of
neo-pros would and do benefit from all these methodologies of learning,
and various folk fit wonderfully into fandom, of course. I'm merely
highly aware of the tough problems on the other end of the spectrum, and
one of the larger of those problems is simply convincing a few neo-pros as
to why they should *care* about these geeky nerds who are all into Star
Trek and stupid costumes and live role playing. As some see it.
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In article <37F04852...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
>
> > At a minimun, and making the wildly improbable assumption that there
> > are no other similar materials produced at any time anywhere, there's
> > Susan Shwartz's _A Neopro's Guide to Fandom and Condom_, which has
> > been published a number of times in connection with different
> > conventions. I'm not aware of it being online anywhere, unfortunately.
>
> Anyone got a copy of this I could borrow? This whole thread is about
> making me want to crawl under the desk, TBH.
>
> I've been on programme tons of times because I'm me. The two of the
> last three cons I've been to I was asked to be on panels about having
> sold a novel, and that's the _only_ panels I was on at those cons.
>
> At Wincon I did gently explain to one neopro that I really wasn't there
> to "network" and I really would have been there whether I'd sold a novel
> or not.
Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
Trust me on this one.
(Nevertheless, if someone can turn up a copy of the _Neopro's Guide_,
you might find it fun to read.)
<snip>
Lis Carey
Irv Koch
<G> has a decent article on attending cons ... for pros who need
education about such. I don't know where the author, Rothman, ran into
so many cons that don't even give pros on the program a free membership
(other than Worldcons and a few other special cases), and, of course, he
comes at it from the pro's viewpoint ("we draw paying customers,
yuhhhccch"), but, in general it's a pretty good article. Covers a lot
of the issues that have been raised here about the pro going to a con
needing to be sensible.
Alyson L. Abramowitz
Gary Farber wrote:
>
> That seems a good way to encode it. Mind, I don't mean to sound too
> negative about this sort of stuff; certainly considerable number of
> neo-pros would and do benefit from all these methodologies of learning,
> and various folk fit wonderfully into fandom, of course. I'm merely
> highly aware of the tough problems on the other end of the spectrum, and
> one of the larger of those problems is simply convincing a few neo-pros as
> to why they should *care* about these geeky nerds who are all into Star
> Trek and stupid costumes and live role playing. As some see it.
Frankly, if pros don't care about the readers of their novels, one would
wonder why they are at a con or writing at all. Or do they perceive it
all as networking professionally? I don't think I'd want to write for
folks I disdained.
Additionally, I think this is more than just a neo-pro issue. The only
variation is the pro that makes it before coming to a con. These folks
can be and are equally as confused about fandom (which is, let's face
it, a confusing place for the newcomer whether they've been a reader for
10 years or a pro with a famous sf tv show).
Some folks won't ever get it, whether they are readers or pros. Seems
like we can do some work towards helping the "trainable" folks.
When was the last time anyone did one of these panels? Even better, how
about having one at next worldcon?
Dorothy J Heydt
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Susan Shwartz's _A Neopro's Guide to Fandom and Condom_,....
>
>Anyone got a copy of this I could borrow? This whole thread is about
>making me want to crawl under the desk, TBH.
If nobody else comes up with a copy for you in a hurry, I'll
photocopy it and snailmail it to you.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Ross Smith
>
> I would think a panel called "How Not to be an Asshole" and having good
> people on it wouldn't even need a description to draw a large crowd.
A large crowd, yes. The people who need it, unfortunately, probably not.
--
Ross Smith ....................................... Auckland, New Zealand
<mailto:r-s...@ihug.co.nz> ........ <http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~r-smith/>
Quoth the raven, "404!"
Terry Pratchett
<irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> writes
>The current issue of SFWA Bulletin, for sale to anyone with the money
><G> has a decent article on attending cons ... for pros who need
>education about such. I don't know where the author, Rothman, ran into
>so many cons that don't even give pros on the program a free membership
>(other than Worldcons and a few other special cases), and, of course, he
>comes at it from the pro's viewpoint ("we draw paying customers,
>yuhhhccch"),
Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other? I thought I
knew, and I've very much enjoyed most of the cons I've been guest at --
but over the years I've run into suggestions that the GoH should find
'sponsors' for hotel and airfare, cons who demanded that I attend no
other cons within a certain (large) area before their con (I could see
their point, but then they collapsed) a failed bid that pretended it
hadn't, presumably so a fan could keep writing letters to me, and...much
worse. That's made me write *very* carefully worded letters these
days:-)
--
Terry Pratchett
Jo Walton
lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
> Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
> confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
> Trust me on this one.
I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do anyway
and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins you
listed.
As I still don't see anything wrong with that, I clearly need the guide.
I also need a good answer to all the questions about how to beat the
system and get published, other than "What system?"
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In article <37F177B7...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>, Irv Koch
> <irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> writes
> >The current issue of SFWA Bulletin, for sale to anyone with the money
> ><G> has a decent article on attending cons ... for pros who need
> >education about such. I don't know where the author, Rothman, ran into
> >so many cons that don't even give pros on the program a free membership
> >(other than Worldcons and a few other special cases), and, of course, he
> >comes at it from the pro's viewpoint ("we draw paying customers,
> >yuhhhccch"),
>
> Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
> the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
> Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
> GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
> to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
> a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
A very few pros do have the ability to draw "paying customers". A
rather larger number of pros believe, or at least claim to believe
that A)any and all pros draw "paying customers", and B)drawing "paying
customers" is what well-run conventions want to do. These twin
delusions are less common among pros who are fans and have been fans
for years before becoming pros.
> Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
> What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other?
The Guest ought to show up when expected, participate in scheduled
events as requested, and be generally accommodating and accessible
while at the con, and stay until the end, including any dead dog party
or committee dinner, according to local custom, at which the
_committee_ gets to spend some time with the Guest. The con ought to
make travel and hotel arrangements, pay expenses, be clear about _how_
expenses will be handled and what's covered, let the Guest know what
activities they'll be expected to participate in, make sure the Guest
has regular meals and a schedule that doesn't run the Guest ragged
(what this means exactly will depend in part on the age and overall
health of the Guest.)
And the Guest and the con ought to be polite and considerate of each
other.
> I thought I
> knew, and I've very much enjoyed most of the cons I've been guest at
> -- but over the years I've run into suggestions that the GoH should
> find 'sponsors' for hotel and airfare,
Completely loony. Hotel and travel expenses are the concom's
responsibility, not the Guest's.
> cons who demanded that I attend no other cons within a certain
> (large) area before their con (I could see their point, but then they > collapsed)
It sounds rather pushy to me. Any exclusion zone ought to be fairly
small, in both time and distance.
> a failed bid that pretended it
> hadn't, presumably so a fan could keep writing letters to me,
Oh, dear.
> and...much
> worse. That's made me write *very* carefully worded letters these
> days:-)
I should think so!
Lis Carey
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In article <37F1667F...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
>
> > Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
> > confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
> > Trust me on this one.
>
> I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do anyway
> and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins you
> listed.
>
> As I still don't see anything wrong with that, I clearly need the > guide.
Nah. It's not claiming the expenses against tax that's the problem;
it's claiming that the con is obligated to do things to make it easier
for you to validate this with the tax authorities, such as add you to
already-full program items, or give you a free membership even though
you're not on program. It's rudeness, self-importance, and
cluelessness about the purpose and interests of the con that's the
problem, not what you do with your expense receipts when you file your
taxes later.
And so I say again, I have great confidence that you're not one of the
pros we're bitching about. Reallyreallyreally.
> I also need a good answer to all the questions about how to beat the
> system and get published, other than "What system?"
Why? That sounds like a fair and accurate answer to me.
Lis Carey
Johan Anglemark
news:XqlQEOAO...@unseen.demon.co.uk...
> Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
> the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
> Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
> GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
> to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
> a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
To a confirmed fannish fan in Sweden, the choice of GoH(s) is probably more
important as a marker of what sort of con the committee wants to put on
than an actual pulling force, but to the neo or reader it can be important.
In 2.5 weeks we're having our national con here in Sweden, with Michael
Swanwick as GoH. I should guess that choice will get us 5 extra members,
tops (out of approx 120), but it has earned us a lot of goodwill from
knowledgeable readers and fans who think Swanwick is an excellent choice.
In 1992, we had yourself as GoH, Terry, and that was probably a major
contributing factor in making us reach a membership of 250. I would say we
would not have reached more than 200-225 without you. If it were today,
with your readership in Sweden being much bigger, we would probably have
exceeded 300 members.
In 1995, I was on a committee putting on a pure fantasy con, aimed not at
fandom but at _readers_ of fantasy (proto-neo fans, as we kidded
ourselves). We drew more than 250 members, but without Robert Jordan as GoH
we would not have attracted more than 150. In that case the name Robert
Jordan was what made the con possible at all.
> Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
> What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other?
That's simple. We offer you a hotel for the night before the con, during
the con and the night after the con, and some complimentary drink and food
during the con. We also offer to take you around town if you like (to the
Royal warship Wasa e.g.) and are attentive to what else you'd like (or
prefer to avoid).
You will accept the panels and signings we suggest, an interview and you'll
hold a GoH speech. You will also make yourself available to fans wanting a
chat in the bar as much as you feel up to. That doesn't mean all the time,
but you shouldn't do like the Scots author Alasdair Gray who was GoH at a
Gothenburg con in 1986 and who only attended the items on the programme he
was on, disappearing immediately after each programme item back to the
hotel, leaving a huge hotel bill behind for the committee to pay as the
lasting impression of his visit in Gothenburg.
-j
--
johan.a...@bahnhof.se --- www.bahnhof.se/~anglemar/
***** Swecon 1999; Swedish National sf con:
***** http://sfweb.dang.se/1999.html
David Owen-Cruise
[snip]
>I also need a good answer to all the questions about how to beat the
>system and get published, other than "What system?"
>
Lavish dinners for recently published authors.
Brilliant, yet understated presentations on con panels.
Paid subscriptions to fanzines.
Write, submit, repeat. Strike that, they'll never believe it.
--
David Owen-Cruise
"Letters are things, not pictures of things."
Eric Gill
Marilee J. Layman
Walton) wrote:
>In article <37F1667F...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
>
>> Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
>> confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
>> Trust me on this one.
>
>I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do anyway
>and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins you
>listed.
Well, if you'd go anyway and can then take it off taxes, that's a good
thing. My doctor wrote me prescriptions for water exercise &
myofascial massage -- Kaiser won't pay for them, but at least I can
include them in the medical deduction on my taxes.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
relm...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
Web site: http://www.webmoose.com/owc/
AOL keyword: BOOKs > Chats & Message > SF Forum > The Other*Worlds*Cafe
Janice Gelb
>The current issue of SFWA Bulletin, for sale to anyone with the money
><G> has a decent article on attending cons ... for pros who need
>education about such. I don't know where the author, Rothman, ran into
>so many cons that don't even give pros on the program a free membership
>(other than Worldcons and a few other special cases), and, of course, he
>comes at it from the pro's viewpoint ("we draw paying customers,
>of the issues that have been raised here about the pro going to a con
>needing to be sensible.
>
"We draw paying customers" really only works for a few
"name" pros. However, I'd be willing to grant that if a con uses
a pro's name in publicity as part of a guest list or whatever,
they have a decent argument about possibly contributing to
attendance. What frosts me are the pros who claim that even
if they're not on the program and therefore are not part of
the publicity or contributing to the convention itself, they
*still* should get a free membership just because they're a
writer and they're at the con. As if their writerly essence
drifting down the hallway somehow enhances the con...
*****************************************************************
Janice Gelb | The only connection Sun has with
janic...@eng.sun.com | this message is the return address.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8018/index.html
"These are my opinions. If they were the Biblical truth, your
bushes would be burning" -- Randy Lander
Lydia Nickerson
>In article <37F1667F...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
>> Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
>> confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
>> Trust me on this one.
>I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do anyway
>and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins you
>listed.
The crime listed is attempting to force the concom to place you on
programming because of the possibly mistaken assumption that you cannot
deduct the con if you aren't on programming. Can't imagine why anybody'd
care what you tell the tax man.
>I also need a good answer to all the questions about how to beat the
>system and get published, other than "What system?"
I like Patrick's answer, which I'll paraphrase as: Write a brilliant book.
Doug Wickstrom
excited the ether to say:
>In article <37F1667F...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
>
>> Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
>> confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
>> Trust me on this one.
>
>I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do anyway
>and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins you
>listed.
>
>As I still don't see anything wrong with that, I clearly need the guide.
I don't think there _is_ anything wrong with that.
>I also need a good answer to all the questions about how to beat the
>system and get published, other than "What system?"
How about "write well."
--
Doug Wickstrom
"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass,
and I'm just the one to do it." --a Texas congressional candidate
Philip Plumbly
>In article <37F1667F...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
>
>> Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
>> confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking
about.
>> Trust me on this one.
>
>I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do
anyway
>and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins
you
>listed.
>
>As I still don't see anything wrong with that, I clearly need the
guide.
I have to say that I never heard any reports of you being the "Pushy
Pro" at Wincon, none of my committee reported any problems emanating
from you. The only comment was from John Richards telling me he must
buy your book as soon as it is out.
Speaking as a regular member of a concom if all neo-pros behaved like
you the world of conrunning would be so much friendlier. As far as I
am concerned if you can arrange to get tax deducted for attending a
con then good luck with it.
--
Phil Plumbly
South Hants SF Group,
2nd & 4th Tuesday evenings every month,
Lounge Bar, The Magpie Public House,
Fratton Road, Fratton, Portsmouth , UK
Come and visit, all welcome.
Mike Scott
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
>What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other? I thought I
>knew, and I've very much enjoyed most of the cons I've been guest at --
>but over the years I've run into suggestions that the GoH should find
>'sponsors' for hotel and airfare, cons who demanded that I attend no
>other cons within a certain (large) area before their con (I could see
>their point, but then they collapsed) a failed bid that pretended it
>hadn't, presumably so a fan could keep writing letters to me, and...much
>worse. That's made me write *very* carefully worded letters these
>days:-)
I'd say the "standard package" (in the UK) is for the con to provide
membership, travel expenses, accommodation and perhaps some meals for
the guest of honour, and a partner where applicable.
I'd also say that convention committees and guests are perfectly
entitled to suggest other arrangements, but that they should do so
honestly and keep commitments. For example, the UK role-playing
conventions normally bring over a US guest, which is tight on the budget
with a membership of around 150 people. They generally can only afford
to pay for one air fare, not two, and hold an auction at the con to help
to defray the expenses and suggest that the guest might like to bring
over a few items for the auction. As long as this is made clear from the
beginning (which it certainly was the time that I was the guest liaison,
and as far as I know always has been), I don't see anything wrong with
this. Nor, of course, would I see anything wrong with the potential
guest declining to accept an invitation on that basis.
However, I think that if a con saw other conventions in the same are as
some kind of "competition" that a guest should agree to keep away from,
I'd be inclined to treat them as a business and charge a hefty
appearance fee.
--
Mike Scott
mi...@plokta.com
PNN has frequently updated news & comment for SF fandom
http://www.plokta.com/pnn/
Nancy Lebovitz
Janice Gelb <jan...@eng.sun.com> wrote:
>
>"We draw paying customers" really only works for a few
>"name" pros. However, I'd be willing to grant that if a con uses
>a pro's name in publicity as part of a guest list or whatever,
>they have a decent argument about possibly contributing to
>attendance. What frosts me are the pros who claim that even
>if they're not on the program and therefore are not part of
>the publicity or contributing to the convention itself, they
>*still* should get a free membership just because they're a
>writer and they're at the con. As if their writerly essence
>drifting down the hallway somehow enhances the con...
>
pros than are in the publicity, it would eventually get more
attendees. Not only that, but they'd be fannish attendees who
know the scuttlebutt.
On the other hand, this would take a long time and large numbers
of famous and/or pleasant mystery pros.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com
Calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
David G. Bell
tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk "Terry Pratchett" writes:
> In article <37F177B7...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>, Irv Koch
> <irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> writes
> >The current issue of SFWA Bulletin, for sale to anyone with the money
> ><G> has a decent article on attending cons ... for pros who need
> >education about such. I don't know where the author, Rothman, ran into
> >so many cons that don't even give pros on the program a free membership
> >(other than Worldcons and a few other special cases), and, of course, he
> >comes at it from the pro's viewpoint ("we draw paying customers,
> >yuhhhccch"),
>
> Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
> the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
> Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
> GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
> to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
> a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
I have been to two conventions _primarily_ because of the GoH. Once it
was Harlan Ellison, and once it was Roger Zelazny. On both occasions, I
felt their presence justified my choice. My experience of meeting
Harlan Ellison somewhat tempers my reactions to stories about him. As
for Roger Zelazny, the news of his death hit me hard. It wasn't just,
as with John Brunner, that I had met him, or that I liked his work.
> Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
> What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other? I thought I
> knew, and I've very much enjoyed most of the cons I've been guest at --
> but over the years I've run into suggestions that the GoH should find
> 'sponsors' for hotel and airfare, cons who demanded that I attend no
> other cons within a certain (large) area before their con (I could see
> their point, but then they collapsed) a failed bid that pretended it
> hadn't, presumably so a fan could keep writing letters to me, and...much
> worse. That's made me write *very* carefully worded letters these
> days:-)
Expecting the GoH to find 'sponsors' seems pretty dishonourable. I do
know of regular conventions which invite members to pay extra to become
sponsors, and get a few extra privileges -- that would depend a lot on
what the privileges are, and I'd hold out against any sort of Captain's
Table arrangements for breakfast, at least.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
obscurity
> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:26:38 +0100, Terry Pratchett
> <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I'd say the "standard package" (in the UK) is for the con to provide
> membership, travel expenses, accommodation and perhaps some meals for
> the guest of honour, and a partner where applicable.
Wow, they provide a partner?
[fx: wanders off to work on a story...]
--
obscurity.
"Only the great masters of style ever succeed in being obscure." - Oscar Wilde
Terry Pratchett
<Johan.A...@bahnhof.se> writes
> We also offer to take you around town if you like (to the
>Royal warship Wasa e.g.)
Good grief, I remember that. A truly SF experience in itself, worth a
trip to Sweden in its own right...
The point I was making is that once upon a time everyone knew this
stuff, knew the 'etiquette', and now (on both sides) you cannot *rely*
on it. I regret that I've had to learn how to write those careful
letters and emails...
--
Terry Pratchett
Irv Koch
> Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
> the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
> Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
Urrrgggghhhh. I hardly expected to get such a distinguished person
replying.
I can't answer for the UK. For the US, the answer is "some, sometimes,
but...." If the con is hurting for membership, they do have to consider
the "draw" factor. (We were also, mostly, talking about pro's at the
con in general, not the GoH, BTW. I don't know how much of the threads
you saw. The "pushy" part came, to a large extent, from pro's who were
not even invited to the con, much less "on the flyer.")
The reason I went "yuchhh," was that trying to draw numbers of paying
customers, as opposed to people who go to cons as YOU described, can
cause problems worse than losing a little money.
> GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
> to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
> a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
Amen.
> Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
> What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other? I thought I
Looks on topic to me. And a good subject.
> knew, and I've very much enjoyed most of the cons I've been guest at --
> but over the years I've run into suggestions that the GoH should find
> 'sponsors' for hotel and airfare, cons who demanded that I attend no
Double yuccchhhh! Just the opposite makes more since, but, I doubt is
really needed or an issue, at this point. A gazillion years ago, when
we had A. E. Van Vogt as GoH at ChattaCon, we found him a paid speaking
gig at a relatively nearby college, and someone drove him up and back,
etc.
> other cons within a certain (large) area before their con (I could see
> their point, but then they collapsed) a failed bid that pretended it
The "non-attendance" feature is one I've never seen before, for a con,
and find very hard to "stomach."
> hadn't, presumably so a fan could keep writing letters to me, and...much
> worse. That's made me write *very* carefully worded letters these
> days:-)
Well, I can tell you what I think the GoH and con should expect of each
other. And, there's sometimes the possibility that my opinion "holds"
on stuff like this. We are also assuming a "regular" SF&F con and no
complications.
1. The con person in charge of the deal should write a letter with SASE
to the GoH, with two copies in it, that in plain English (or American)
states just what IS expected, and is to happen. The last paragraph
should be, "If you agree to this, please sign one copy and send it
back. Said con person, legally responsible for committing the
committee, should have signed both copies before sending this out. They
also should, if possible, already discussed this by voice phone or email
or the like. Catching potential GoH's at other cons is also fine.
2. The con pays either mileage at the US IRS rate for a business trip
(not usual), or two airline tickets. Round trip, normally, in any
case. Exception if the GoH lives in easy drive of the con to start
with. Air fare is more likely than mileage. For examples, Robert
Jordan at a hypothetical con in Charleston, SC wouldn't get
transportation. David Weber to a less hypothetical con in Charlotte,
NC, would probably chose to drive. Harriet McDoughal (sp) as GoH or MC
(they should get the same deal, in my opinion) at the hypothetical
Charlotte Con, with a totally non-participating husband, hiding in his
room "for the duration," would probably get two plane tickets.
I prefer to buy the tickets from the con's end, shopping for cheap
deals, but there's a lot of leeway on that. Normally, the tickets
should be, basically discounted coach type. Weekend stay or 30 days in
advance, or whatever. NORMALLY, pros demanding "first class," should
politely be told, "no thank you, we'll go to the next person down the
list on our choices of GoH." If the con is indeed a Worldcon, and has a
lot of money slushing about, I could see First Class.
Complications often do apply, but the reference, in my opinion, should
be the cost of plain vanilla tickets, as noted above. IF <sigh>
Atlantis (con in Atlanta that never happened -- killed by the hotel 93
days before the 1st one was scheduled), had happened, the deal with GoH
Jane Yolen was something like "We'd see what the cost of the agreed upon
type of ticket was, 45 days before the con. We'd pay her, check, at the
con. She would have bought the tickets for her husband and self from
her end, including the return leg with stop over in Carolina to visit a
daughter on the way back.
2A. The con, in the case of a struggling start up or one with lots of
leeway, MAY set the date of the con to the GoH/MC's schedule. I think
we moved the date a week for Jane. For a Worldcon, as a
counter-example, with the date set years before the GoH is chosen,
that's impossible.
2B. Pick them up from the airport, if applicable, and deliver them when
they depart. Do NOT leave them to the Hotel Van unless they
specifically request such (E.g., Harlan Ellison at the last con held in
Charlotte, NC, Heroescon.)
3. The con pays for a room for the GoH and one companion (usually) same
price, for each night of the scheduled convention and maybe one or two
extra, depending on available budget and the GoH's plans. It is also
not unknown for committee types to put GoH's or the like up at their
homes before/after, depending on a lot of stuff, usually not in the
agreement. NORMALLY, this is a "regular room at whatever rate the
convention members pay." I've heard rumors that Worldcons pay for
suites; I could probably buy that deal, given good budget situation. It
would not, however, be as big as the SFWA Suite.
Note I word this stuff "one companion," and not spouse or the like.
I've had daughters, factorums, extra-marital girlfriends, regular
spouses, big name pro spouses, etc. and no telling what.
While probably not in the agreement, the con, if it has any sense, will
ask about room location and similar factors and attempt to "be nice."
If the GoH wants to do something "non-standard," with the above being
considered "A" standard, rather than a concrete rule, I think it should
become a case of "we'll pay the standard" but make arrangements for you,
as you've asked. (The con most certainly DOES do the room
reservations.) For example, a well known pro, often a GoH at Southern
US Cons, always used to do a separate room for his wife and himself. We
reserved both, however he wanted, and paid for one. There's a
gazzillion variations on this.
3A. "Normally," and a Worldcon isn't normal, and budget considerations
apply as do verbal discussion with the GoH beforehand, I am in a fairly
small minority in wanting to just give the GoH a check for the room cost
when they show up (and cashing it on the spot if they want and there's
cash to do it). This gets both parties out of worrying about "expenses
charged to the room," which are, again NORMALLY, not covered (but see
elsewhere re lump sum expenses).
The year after A. E. Van Vogt, Allan Dean Foster ran up a significant
phone bill, calling home to a sick wife. We picked that one up quite
fast.
4. A lump sum for "all other expenses" figured on some cost per day for
two people: travel to/from airport, meals, what have you. It can be
called an honorarium, per diem, or whatever. Bottom line is it's a
reasonable, possibly liberal, maybe not so liberal, lump sum to cover
all other expenses the GoH has to get to, attend, and go home, from the
convention. ONLY GoH's and MCs and the like get this, not other classes
of Guest.
The general idea is "we're glad to have you here and the word "honor,"
in GoH isn't taken lightly, but it's an amatuer run operation and we
would like for neither party(s) to have to worry about money more than
can be avoided.
Give it to the GoH in the form of a check when they show up, cashing
check if needbe. Other, but generally similar, arrangements can be made
and should be put in the agreement. For example, a UK GoH at a US
Worldcon that I had a lot to do with*, would, if the agreed, probably
get a Cooks or Ruesch-International* check in UK funds. So the con eats
a fee, big deal.
*Yes, this could be a live example. I did "Cooks" for similar stuff at
the DC Mythocon. Some consideration of this type thing has been emailed
about, among the committee, for the Charlotte 2004 Worldcon bid, and
that's where the Ruesch outfit came up. Baltimore '98 may have used
them, as well, for all I know.
OTOH, if I remember correctly, Ann McCaffrey, GoH at a con in Atlanta,
cheerfully took the check, cashed, in US funds, and went visiting
relatives.
5. Two memberships. Full, voting, memberships! "Voteing" applies only
to cons that have such, like Worldcon or DSC. I know others differ on
the "voting" part. (This also, BTW, goes along with the con internally
treating "free memberships" as cash, in someone's budget, and then
counted as income to cancel it. That's not quite on this topic, but
there's a long, involved, relationship, and reasons, for doing it that
way.)
Throwing in extra memberships for kids and the like is usually not
something I'd want to do, but there are lots of cases you do want to do
such. If it's done, I like to put them to work or put them on the
program, as applicable.
In SOME cases, the con is going to HAVE TO come up with child care.
Period. Do it or don't get the GoH. Example: Joan Vinge (Frenkel) at
the 1984 DSC (Deep South Con in Chattanooga). Mother type GoH with
small child bounceing off the walls and doors in the hotel room;
concommittee members of similar type baby sat -- period. Again, there's
no end of exceptional cases; every one has to be handled to MUTUAL
satisfaction.
6. If you've got a banquet or the like, the GoH and companion have to
have seats paid by the con (q.v. memberships re internal handling).
7. Other expenses may be covered and deals made depending on the
situation. Bottom line is that if both parties don't treat it like a
deal among friends, the one that doesn't (hopefully a proposed GoH
that's just not into cons) shouldn't be dealing with cons.
8. Beyond that, what the con does for the GoH is "nice to do" stuff,
but isn't what I'd call standard. However....
8A. The con should find out what the companion is interested in and "do
something," if practical. At one extreme they may just want to sit in
their room watching TV. In the middle they may be interested in
"touring old houses," and, no, I don't remember whose wife liked that,
but it was a Chattacon long ago, and we had a committee member glad to
take her around.
Near the other extreme, the companion may be a someone of "guest" or at
least "program participant" obviousness in their own right. ("Guest" vs
"Program Participant" is a discussion for another day.) A "smart
concom" finds this out and puts them on the program in a deal where
everyone is VERY happy.
If "this year's" GoH, surprises you by showing up with a different
husband than the last one you knew about, and he's one of your GoH's
from a previous year ....
At the extreme end of that, the known likely companion may need to be
co-GoH. For example, for Filk Cons, there is no such thing as Brenda OR
Bill Sutton -- it's always both. For Professional GoH's, every example
I can think of, off the top of my head, has complications, so I won't
give an example.
8B. Taking them out to dinner. Gifts on the bed when they get in their
room (potable, consumable, whatever). Momentos, T-shirts, ghu knows
what. Some of this may or may not be in the agreement.
8C. At WORLDCONS, but rarely elsewhere, the concom has a special
laison, which means high powered gofer -- like the head of your VIP
Laison dept -- assigned to take care of the GoH, sort of. He/she/they
may be one person covering the GoH, MC, and Fan GoH, all three, or the
like; it depends. They shall have a budget and/or slush fund for
special cases. (And I sometimes shed a tear, thinking about one of
those, Terry Carr medical transport, at the end of the Atlanta '86
Worldcon <sigh>.)
8D. Again, there's batches of small and optional points. Basic rules
above should apply.
9. Now we get into what the con should expect of the GoH. Two way
stuff, first.
9A. They're "on the flyer" &/or PR, and/or other publicity, but mainly
"your basic announcement stuff." Yeah, they "may draw." Yeah, you may
be providing their career publicity. No, those are not the biggest
issues, but they exist. Be sure you get their name the way they want
it....
And, if you've got to add "Author of the Gonzo Whatsit Series," for the
blasted GoH, maybe there's "something wrong." (Maybe it's OK.)
9B. There may be other stuff that's "two way," as well, and may or may
not be subject to the agreement. And, oh, yeah ... on the one hand,
keep the GoH informed of "progress" even if you don't have PR's. Send
them a flyer with their name on it when you come out with a new version,
for instance, and a note of some sort. The GoH, likewise, should tell
the con if they're up to something that may make a difference, like
maybe (I should hope not), periodic email discussing the status of their
latest contract to do a movie script for $3,000,000 that requires they
miss the con if certain things happen.
10. What they'll do on the Program, which has to at least be some sort
of one hour GoH speech, slide show, or whatever, and showing up for
brief remarks at opening ceremony, banquet, whatever. On a "normal
con," I expect a minimum of two hours but usually they're going to do a
bit more. On a Worldcon, I expect a minimum of four, but probably more.
Your Program Dept person and/or "the like," needs to assure there's
something in the agreement, then, before and after the agreement, TALK
(email, write, whatever) about what each wants. Usually both parties
concoct neat stuff and everyone goes away happy. GoH's normally like to
talk about themselves.... Often they like to do other stuff. If both
parties are treating the deal as friends, it'll work out SOME way.
11. Better cover "accessability" in the agreement. At least talk about
it. At one extreme is James Hogan, who *sometimes* shows up at cons
without letting you put him on the program, buying his own membership,
and goes party ... and spends half the time in the consuite chatting
with whoever comes up. At the other end is "Pro X," who signs up
(litterally and legally) for 2 hours of autographing and 1 hour at a
"meet the pros" session, and isn't otherwise seen outside the 2 or 4 or
whatever hours of agreed upon programing. But, we were talking about
GoH, so, bottom line is "talk about it and put some minimum in the
agreement."
12. I usually insist they come up with what bibliographic material on
themselves that they can, and "we" supplement it ... and it gets printed
in the "Program Book."
12A. There's a mess of similar stuff but it gets "optional" real fast:
Article and/or biography, pictures, writing something, etc.
12AA. "Writing Something," is a consideration, and is no way standard.
Maybe you can talk them into tossing an otherwise unpublishable but
readable story into your Program Book for no extra charge. Maybe you're
a Worldcon with a friendly neighboorhood Independent Press (or Small
Press ... difference being another whole discussion) and deal for a full
blown book ... with royalties, with the con retailing &/or
wholesaleing. VERY live example, BTW, with "publisher most likely,"
furnishable by email.
13. Who knows what else. Same basic principles apply as what the GoH
"gets," apply to what they "give." It's an sf&f&related fan gathering.
There's no end of strange situations.
Irv Koch, Chair, Charlotte 2004 Worldcon Bid (South East Convention
Fandom, Incorporated.) (Also chartered to do Mystery Fiction cons....)
Irv Koch
> Terry Pratchett wrote:
<snip excellent general reply which I agree with to the last dotted I
and crossed T>
If I'd seen your reply first (I could have) and wasn't running a
Worldcon bid where this was all a VERY live example (Pratchett is
POPULAR ... and nice ... and funny) ... I'd have shut up and not "gone
into details." As was, I missed points, e.g., "dead dog party."
Speaking of which, if you're going to do a full meal at the end
(Chattacon again), buffet, it's a good thing to let the GoH and
companion go first. Picky point; just had to add SOMETHING.
Bernard Peek
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
>the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
>Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
>GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
>to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
>a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
The right choice of GoH will prompt some small number of fans to attend,
a different set for every GoH. There are a few who would attract a large
number of people if their name was used outside the traditional fannish
catchment area. The initials ACC and TP come to mind.
>Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
>What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other?
John Brunner wrote an article on the care and feeding of guests, I can't
remember where I read it.
Because different cons have evolved independently there are lots of
committees that have their own traditions. UK fandom is small enough
that there's pretty much a consensus about what a GoH gets. But even
here there are variations.
My starting list would be:
Travel and accommodation for the guest and one other. The rest of the
immediate family might also be included, or might not. The guest should
not charge drinks to the room. Air travel will not be first-class or
Concorde. The guest will be collected from the airport/station and
delivered back at the end.
Main meals during the convention. It's not unusual for the committee to
take the GoH out for a meal and split the cost between them.
Free drinks as and when a committee member is buying. Free drinks during
programme items (all participants get this).
The convention expects the guest to provide one or two programme items
per day. There will probably be a GoH speech or similar, the guest is
expected to have something interesting to say. This is one of the focal
points of the programme so it should show some sign of being well
thought out.
The GoH is free to volunteer for other programme items too.
Outside of the programmed time the GoH is expected to be reasonably
visible and convivial.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
Irv Koch
> In article <37F1667F...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
> Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
> > confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
> > Trust me on this one.
> I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do anyway
> and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins you
> listed.
I suspect she was not against you're going in order to take a deduction,
only to "pushing yourself on panels or the like, uninvited."
All you've got to do to claim the deduction is SOMETHING ... standing by
a Dealers table with your books on it, which you prearranged with your
friendly huxter, huxtering your own books or story in a prozine, or
something ... ANYTHING.
More likely you're going to pre-reg and tell the con "I have XYZ in
print," and Liz (as an example), being on the concom, will get your
membership check sent back, your name put on the flyer as "Other Guest,"
and you on some panel about "Plushy Pros." <Grin>
> As I still don't see anything wrong with that, I clearly need the guide.
Discussion here, lately, has been pretty good. SFWA "Con watch" Dept.
does a good job. You can write 'm and ask. (Or email.)
> I also need a good answer to all the questions about how to beat the
> system and get published, other than "What system?"
Can't help much with that one. On your fist question, the nature of the
universe put the odds in your favor. On the later, they're against
almost everyone.
Alyson L. Abramowitz
Terry Pratchett wrote:
>
> Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
> the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
> Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
> GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
> to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
> a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
I remember when I first started attending cons (and later worldcons) I
attended because I wanted to meet other sf *readers*. I didn't know many
other folks who read the stuff until I found fandom. It was cool that
there were writers there as well. I still have memories of meeting Isaac
Asimov (the first writer I met). So, clearly, it was an important part
of the con. It wasn't the reason I attended.
The GoH is more one of a variety of data points I use to validate that
this is the kind of sf con I want to attend. I brought two long time
readers and neos to the Baltimore worldcon. They enjoyed the pros but
they came to check out the books.
Now once I've already decided to attend a con, I might make a point of
going to the panels of a GoH whose work I like. Or not. It won't prevent
me from attendance.
> Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
> What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other?
I'm more of an attendee than a con organizer (though I have been known
to work on and even chair cons too). So this is more from an attendee
perspective. I've been to worldcons on three continents and cons on two.
This is primarily an American perspective though.
Minimum I would expect a con to provide to a GoH (not a Panel
Participant) is a membership, a room and (if applicable) transportation.
If they are local, I'd expect the GoH to get to the con on their own. If
there is budget, possibly some food.
Beyond this are nice to haves depending on the committee. For example,
ride to/from the airport (beyond a cab), dinner with the committee, tour
of town.
In return, I would expect to see a GoH be on a number of panels (at
least one/day). A GoH speech would be at least one of those "panels".
Additionally, some degree of just being around in the bar, parties, etc.
Accessibility of the GoH is an important distinction between sf fandom
and certain other fandoms (e.g., media fandom) to me. Participation in
at least one media interview for the benefit of the con's publicity
would seem appropriate too.
I expect the GoH to be at the con from opening ceremonies to closing
ceremonies (both of which I would expect them to attend) with some
degree of togetherness. So if there is a 18 hour time zone difference,
expect to arrive at least 1 day early (the con should pick up the hotel
room or make other accommodation arrangements). Attendance at the Dead
Dog is optional but desirable. Some folks just have day jobs to get back
to after the weekend so it just isn't possible.
I would certainly see it as an acceptable request to a GoH to ask if
they might have some material to donate to a con auction. That that
auction is part of the method of defraying the cost of airline tickets
for that GoH should be a behind the scenes transaction of the con
committee. If the committee doesn't make costs, they get to eat them
(including the basic costs of a GoH). Which isn't to say that it isn't
appropriate to let a GoH know the con is on a tight budget. Knowledge is
one thing. Obligation is another.
I can see the idea of not being a GoH within a certain geographic
distance. Frankly, if the potential GoH is being utilized that
frequently locally, maybe they weren't the right choice, though. That's
a new one to me.
Best,
Alyson
SGFolse
irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com wrote:
> If I'd seen your reply first (I could have) and wasn't running a
> Worldcon bid where this was all a VERY live example (Pratchett is
> POPULAR ... and nice ... and funny) ... I'd have shut up and not "gone
> into details." [...]
I'd like to say Thanks for posting your detailed reply anyway. I'm
involved for the second year as a staff head at a long-running con in
Texas[1], and am part of a group gearing up to start a new con in Dallas,
so I've been paying close attention to this and related threads to glean
as much info as I can.
--Stephanie
[1] AggieCon 31, March 23-26, 2000, College Station, TX; Harlan Ellison,
Terry Pratchett, Tim Bradstreet <http://cepheid.tamu.edu/aggiecon>
--
Stephanie G. Folse sfolse at taz dot tamu dot edu
Curator of Visual Resources
College of Architecture Texas A&M University
~|......I claim this .sig for Queen Elizabeth
Robert Sneddon
<Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes
>
>John Brunner wrote an article on the care and feeding of guests, I can't
>remember where I read it.
Probably "Conrunner" - IIRC several issues are archived on
www.smof.com, and you might find the article there.
--
To reply by email, send to nojay (at) public (period) antipope (dot) org
Robert Sneddon
Vicki Rosenzweig
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:26:38 +0100, Terry Pratchett
><tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
>>What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other? I thought I
>>knew, and I've very much enjoyed most of the cons I've been guest at --
>>but over the years I've run into suggestions that the GoH should find
>>'sponsors' for hotel and airfare, cons who demanded that I attend no
>>other cons within a certain (large) area before their con (I could see
>>their point, but then they collapsed) a failed bid that pretended it
>>hadn't, presumably so a fan could keep writing letters to me, and...much
>>worse. That's made me write *very* carefully worded letters these
>>days:-)
>
<snip sensible material>
>
>However, I think that if a con saw other conventions in the same are as
>some kind of "competition" that a guest should agree to keep away from,
>I'd be inclined to treat them as a business and charge a hefty
>appearance fee.
Agreed. On the other hand, I have the impression that there's
a loose agreement among US cons, at least, not to invite the
same Guest of Honor to the same area within a short time. That
is, if J. Random Writer is GoH at Boskone, zie might still go to
Arisia or Lunacon, but won't be asked to be GoH at either in
the same year; on the other hand, it would (if I have this
right) be cool for, oh, Armadillocon to ask Writer to be
GoH a few months before or after. (Writers, of course, can
decline or accept whatever invitations they wish.)
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@interport.net
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/rassef-faq.html
"I get by with a little help from my friends." -- Lennon/McCartney
Vicki Rosenzweig
>In <lydy.93...@gw.dd-b.net> Lydia Nickerson <ly...@gw.dd-b.net> wrote:
>: Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> writes:
>
>:>1) Few cons have enough neo-pros in attendance to make them large enough
>:>in number to be a panel *audience*, and almost never enough will actually
>:>show up voluntarily for it to be worthwhile.
>
>:>It might be more worthwhile at a Nebula weekend, but this brings us to
>:>problem
>
>:>2) They'd often only listen to someone who impresses them with Authority.
>
>: How 'bout a couple three old and wise pros reminiscing about their early
>: days as a fan and the really stupid things they did, and other people did,
>: and why it wasn't such a good idea, and stuff? I'd go to that.
>
>That seems a good way to encode it. Mind, I don't mean to sound too
>negative about this sort of stuff; certainly considerable number of
>neo-pros would and do benefit from all these methodologies of learning,
>and various folk fit wonderfully into fandom, of course. I'm merely
>highly aware of the tough problems on the other end of the spectrum, and
>one of the larger of those problems is simply convincing a few neo-pros as
>to why they should *care* about these geeky nerds who are all into Star
>Trek and stupid costumes and live role playing. As some see it.
They don't have to care about us. Nobody's forcing them to come
to cons.
But surely those who don't find cons or fans interesting
will either (a) stay away, because there are more effective means
of marketing or (b) if they're going for marketing reasons, be
interested in knowing what does and doesn't work.
In other words, while it would be nice for them to care about
the community, I suspect it would be _sufficient_ for them to
stop bullying their way onto panels and promoting themselves
badly because it doesn't sell books, and sometimes in fact
costs sales. For example, it might be worth mentioning that
looking stupid in front of the editor you're hoping will buy
your novel is a bad move.
Nancy Lebovitz
Irv Koch <irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
>2. The con pays either mileage at the US IRS rate for a business trip
>(not usual), or two airline tickets. Round trip, normally, in any
>case. Exception if the GoH lives in easy drive of the con to start
>with. Air fare is more likely than mileage. For examples, Robert
>Jordan at a hypothetical con in Charleston, SC wouldn't get
>transportation. David Weber to a less hypothetical con in Charlotte,
>NC, would probably chose to drive. Harriet McDoughal (sp) as GoH or MC
>(they should get the same deal, in my opinion) at the hypothetical
>Charlotte Con, with a totally non-participating husband, hiding in his
>room "for the duration," would probably get two plane tickets.
>
>I prefer to buy the tickets from the con's end, shopping for cheap
>deals, but there's a lot of leeway on that. Normally, the tickets
>should be, basically discounted coach type. Weekend stay or 30 days in
>advance, or whatever. NORMALLY, pros demanding "first class," should
>politely be told, "no thank you, we'll go to the next person down the
>list on our choices of GoH." If the con is indeed a Worldcon, and has a
>lot of money slushing about, I could see First Class.
>
between first class and coach and fly the way zie wants to?
Alyson L. Abramowitz
Robert Sneddon wrote:
>
> In article <C5763WA$kn83...@shrdlu.com>, Bernard Peek
> <Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes
> >
> >John Brunner wrote an article on the care and feeding of guests, I can't
> >remember where I read it.
>
> Probably "Conrunner" - IIRC several issues are archived on
> www.smof.com, and you might find the article there.
Try http://www.smof.com/conrunner/GoHBrunner.htm An enjoyable article
with some insights about what else you can offer if you have some extra
budget.
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In article <37F27C8F...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>,
> Irv Koch <irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >(not usual), or two airline tickets. Round trip, normally, in any
> >case. Exception if the GoH lives in easy drive of the con to start
> >with. Air fare is more likely than mileage. For examples, Robert
> >Jordan at a hypothetical con in Charleston, SC wouldn't get
> >transportation. David Weber to a less hypothetical con in Charlotte,
> >NC, would probably chose to drive. Harriet McDoughal (sp) as GoH or MC
> >(they should get the same deal, in my opinion) at the hypothetical
> >Charlotte Con, with a totally non-participating husband, hiding in his
> >room "for the duration," would probably get two plane tickets.
> >
> >I prefer to buy the tickets from the con's end, shopping for cheap
> >deals, but there's a lot of leeway on that. Normally, the tickets
> >should be, basically discounted coach type. Weekend stay or 30 days in
> >advance, or whatever. NORMALLY, pros demanding "first class," should
> >politely be told, "no thank you, we'll go to the next person down the
> >list on our choices of GoH." If the con is indeed a Worldcon, and has a
> >lot of money slushing about, I could see First Class.
> >
> between first class and coach and fly the way zie wants to?
Sure. No reason to be puritanical about things; the issue is what the
con should be paying for, not what the Guest should be allowed to do
if zie wants and can afford to pay the difference.
Lis Carey
Erik V. Olson
wrote:
>Is it reasonable for a guest who wants first class to cover the difference
>between first class and coach and fly the way zie wants to?
I couldn't see why not, esp. if the guest "went to the counter" and
handled all the details. I'd personally consider it a slight annoyance
if I, as a concom member, had to handle the details, but nothing
major. It might be a sticking point if the con had to buy the first
class ticket and hope for a partial refund from the guest.
--
Erik Olson, SFOF. er...@NOSPAMmo.net : Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
Ceci N'est pas une sig : There *was* no cabal
Gary Farber
: "Evelyn C. Leeper" wrote:
:>
:> I would think a panel called "How Not to be an Asshole" and having good
:> people on it wouldn't even need a description to draw a large crowd.
: A large crowd, yes. The people who need it, unfortunately, probably not.
Just so.
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; For Hire as: Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; Northeast US
Johan Anglemark
news:cidSGAAt...@unseen.demon.co.uk...
> The point I was making is that once upon a time everyone knew this
> stuff, knew the 'etiquette', and now (on both sides) you cannot *rely*
> on it. I regret that I've had to learn how to write those careful
> letters and emails...
I'd like to know how common this experience is. Somehow, I don't think the
people posting here are likely to behave like that. On the other hand,
there is that theory that the number of clues in the world is constant, and
that the population explosion makes them being distributed among more and
more people.
Or perhaps those people have read the news stories about you being one of
the 100 wealthiest men in Britain, and figured _you_ should be paying
_them_ for the privilege of being their guest. There are all kinds of
weirdos out there...
-j
--
johan.a...@bahnhof.se --- www.bahnhof.se/~anglemar/
***** Swecon 1999; Swedish National sf con:
***** http://sfweb.dang.se/1999.html
Doug Wickstrom
>I'd say the "standard package" (in the UK) is for the con to provide
>membership, travel expenses, accommodation and perhaps some meals for
>the guest of honour, and a partner where applicable.
Good grief! UK cons provide partners? Where do I sign up?
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Every friend of freedom must be as revolted as I am by the prospect
of turning the United States into an armed camp, by the vision of
jails filled with casual drug users and of an army of enforcers
empowered to invade the liberty of citizens on slight evidence."
--Milton Friedman
Perrianne Lurie
>Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
>What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other?
There've already been a lot of excellent points made by far too many
others to name. The things I HAVEN'T yet seen are specific to artist
GOHs:
The con com may need to make arrangements for shipping the artwork of
the GOH to the con (particularly if the artist is coming from far away
and/or the art is especially large). The con com will be expected to
set aside prominent space in the art show and the GOH will be expected
to provide art to display in that space. Usually, the GOH will be
asked to provide art for the cover of the "souvenir book" (or "program
book" or whatever they're calling it), and frequently, interior art
(for a "retrospective" spread in the book). Sometimes, the con
tee-shirt or volunteer shirt will include the GOH's art -- if the
shirt is sold, the artist will usually get a "cut" of the "profits"
(if any). The GOH should expect the con com to provide copies of
anything that contains his/her work (the same is true for writer GOHs)
-- the number of copies should be decided by both parties ahead of
time. I'm sure I've forgotten things.
Perrianne Lurie
bucc...@pipeline.com
David G. Bell
bucc...@pipeline.com "Perrianne Lurie" writes:
For art, don't forget insurance, both on-display and in-transit. Some
of this might be covered by a general convention or hotel policy, but if
you're arrangine transport of GoH art, make sure you're covered for
that.
Patrick Connors
: In article <37F27C8F...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>,
: Irv Koch <irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> wrote:
: >2. The con pays either mileage at the US IRS rate for a business trip
: >(not usual), or two airline tickets. Round trip, normally, in any
: >case. Exception if the GoH lives in easy drive of the con to start
: >with. Air fare is more likely than mileage. For examples, Robert
: >Jordan at a hypothetical con in Charleston, SC wouldn't get
: >transportation. David Weber to a less hypothetical con in Charlotte,
: >NC, would probably chose to drive. Harriet McDoughal (sp) as GoH or MC
: >(they should get the same deal, in my opinion) at the hypothetical
: >Charlotte Con, with a totally non-participating husband, hiding in his
: >room "for the duration," would probably get two plane tickets.
: >
: >I prefer to buy the tickets from the con's end, shopping for cheap
: >deals, but there's a lot of leeway on that. Normally, the tickets
: >should be, basically discounted coach type. Weekend stay or 30 days in
: >advance, or whatever. NORMALLY, pros demanding "first class," should
: >politely be told, "no thank you, we'll go to the next person down the
: >list on our choices of GoH." If the con is indeed a Worldcon, and has a
: >lot of money slushing about, I could see First Class.
: Is it reasonable for a guest who wants first class to cover the difference
: between first class and coach and fly the way zie wants to?
I've seen it done. Not usually a problem.
--
Patrick Connors | "You can't have everything.
pmc@ | Where would you put it?"
primenet com |
Jo Walton
nims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:34:45 +0100, Mike Scott
> <mi...@moose.demon.co.uk> excited the ether to say:
>
> >I'd say the "standard package" (in the UK) is for the con to provide
> >membership, travel expenses, accommodation and perhaps some meals for
> >the guest of honour, and a partner where applicable.
>
> Good grief! UK cons provide partners? Where do I sign up?
Well, we do, but we do it by alphabetical order, so yours would be
Dop.
Still want to sign up?
Yes/No/Bollocks
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Interstichia; Poetry; RASFW FAQ; etc.
Bernard Peek
<Johan.A...@bahnhof.se> writes
>Or perhaps those people have read the news stories about you being one of
>the 100 wealthiest men in Britain, and figured _you_ should be paying
>_them_ for the privilege of being their guest. There are all kinds of
>weirdos out there...
There's precedent for this.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
b...@shrdlu.co.uk
Terry Pratchett
>people posting here are likely to behave like that.
I believe you. Nevertheless, the things I mentioned have happened.
>Or perhaps those people have read the news stories about you being one of
>the 100 wealthiest men in Britain, and figured _you_ should be paying
>_them_ for the privilege of being their guest.
You think you are joking? Well, you must be about the '100 wealthiest
men' -- that was a story that got spun up by a business paper. I doubt
if *any* author is in the top 1,000. But about the matter...you write
truer than you think. And if a con fails in its side of the deal -- and
I mean really *defaults*, not just messes up -- how much good is a
perceived-rich pro going to do themselves by getting legal with a bunch
of fans?
--
Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett
<Ber...@shrdlu.com> writes
>
>John Brunner wrote an article on the care and feeding of guests, I can't
>remember where I read it.
>
>
>immediate family might also be included, or might not. The guest should
>not charge drinks to the room. Air travel will not be first-class or
>Concorde. The guest will be collected from the airport/station and
>delivered back at the end.
...etc. Yes, I remember John's article and, by and large, it is the
standard model, although times have moved on. Personally, I think that
travel/accommodation for the 'one other' is a bonus, because that is a
*major* consideration in some international cases.
I've got involved in all kinds of flight arrangements so that a con can
stay within its budget (you mean people *ask* for 1st Class or
Concorde?) without me having to spend a long haul flight with my nose
against the back of someone else's head and my meals consisting of baked
gravy -- doing two cons on one major trip, getting a signing tour hooked
on so that the a publisher picks up a part of the tab, or just plain
upgrading myself. This is a really thorny area, though. I've known
good-sized cons offer the absolute skinniest SuperApex fare and a small
con offer to spring for 1st (I talked them down, because I was sure they
didn't really know what that would have cost). If the feeling is that
'economy' is the standard offer and the guest can upgrade themselves if
they wish, then in fairness I'd better point out that not all 'economy'
tickets are upgradeable. Never underestimate any airline's desire to
give you as little as they can for as much as possible.
--
Terry Pratchett
Josh Hesse
:
: Agreed. On the other hand, I have the impression that there's
: a loose agreement among US cons, at least, not to invite the
: same Guest of Honor to the same area within a short time. That
: is, if J. Random Writer is GoH at Boskone, zie might still go to
: Arisia or Lunacon, but won't be asked to be GoH at either in
: the same year; on the other hand, it would (if I have this
: right) be cool for, oh, Armadillocon to ask Writer to be
: GoH a few months before or after. (Writers, of course, can
: decline or accept whatever invitations they wish.)
I've always had the impression that it's this way because
the draw "value" of a GoH was diminished for some indefinite period
afterwards in the surrounding area. (Probably for the same reasons that
cons don't invite the same GoHs that the've had in previous years.)
For all I know, maybe there is a secret agreement among US cons. *I've*
never heard of it. I do know that if I suggest somebody who was a
GoH at a con >300 mi and >2 years, it would get shot down because of
that reason.
--
Do not send mail to this account. Really.
"Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general
This post (C)1999, Josh Hesse. Ignored material is (C) of the person quoted.
|ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL
email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ DREAMLANDS .Sigfile freshness date: 2/12/99
Johan Anglemark
> <Johan.A...@bahnhof.se> writes
> >
> >I'd like to know how common this experience is. Somehow, I don't think
the
> >people posting here are likely to behave like that.
>
> I believe you. Nevertheless, the things I mentioned have happened.
Oh, I am convinced they have. I'd just like to believe that rasff posters
are not, by and large, in the subset of fans with so few clues. No doubt
there is hard evidence to disprove that naive belief.
> >Or perhaps those people have read the news stories about you being one
of
> >the 100 wealthiest men in Britain, and figured _you_ should be paying
> >_them_ for the privilege of being their guest.
>
> You think you are joking? Well, you must be about the '100 wealthiest
> men' -- that was a story that got spun up by a business paper. I doubt
> if *any* author is in the top 1,000. But about the matter...you write
> truer than you think. And if a con fails in its side of the deal -- and
> I mean really *defaults*, not just messes up -- how much good is a
> perceived-rich pro going to do themselves by getting legal with a bunch
> of fans?
Now, I wasn't joking. That struck me as a thought must have occurred to
several conrunners with too little money or too greedy minds and no social
skills, common sense or etiquette. I'm not surprised at all to hear it has
happened.
Doug Wickstrom
excited the ether to say:
>In article <yBrzN9udi8Ukn7nADA02T=Ghe...@4ax.com>
> nims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:34:45 +0100, Mike Scott
>> <mi...@moose.demon.co.uk> excited the ether to say:
>>
>> >I'd say the "standard package" (in the UK) is for the con to provide
>> >membership, travel expenses, accommodation and perhaps some meals for
>> >the guest of honour, and a partner where applicable.
>>
>> Good grief! UK cons provide partners? Where do I sign up?
>
>Well, we do, but we do it by alphabetical order, so yours would be
>Dop.
>
>Still want to sign up?
>
>Yes/No/Bollocks
I believe the response, in that case, is "bollocks."
--
Doug Wickstrom
"I know, indeed, the evil of that I purpose; but my inclination gets
the better of my judgement." --Euripides
David G. Bell
nims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 99 17:38:35 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)
> excited the ether to say:
>
> >In article <yBrzN9udi8Ukn7nADA02T=Ghe...@4ax.com>
> > nims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
> >
> >> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:34:45 +0100, Mike Scott
> >> <mi...@moose.demon.co.uk> excited the ether to say:
> >>
> >> >I'd say the "standard package" (in the UK) is for the con to provide
> >> >membership, travel expenses, accommodation and perhaps some meals for
> >> >the guest of honour, and a partner where applicable.
> >>
> >> Good grief! UK cons provide partners? Where do I sign up?
> >
> >Well, we do, but we do it by alphabetical order, so yours would be
> >Dop.
> >
> >Still want to sign up?
> >
> >Yes/No/Bollocks
>
> I believe the response, in that case, is "bollocks."
I think it's time to sign up for a convention as "George Bell"...
(Thinks: anyone cute out there who is a "G"?)
Mike Scott
>Well, we do, but we do it by alphabetical order, so yours would be
>Dop.
>
>Still want to sign up?
>
>Yes/No/Bollocks
Sorry, but Doug Wickstrom gets Doug McCallum. Dop ends up with Doreen
Rogers.
--
Mike Scott
mi...@plokta.com
PNN has frequently updated news & comment for SF fandom
http://www.plokta.com/pnn/
Avedon Carol
wrote:
>In article <37F1667F...@mediaone.net>
> lis....@mediaone.net "Elisabeth Carey" writes:
>
>> Jo, even without have met you in the flesh yet, I feel great
>> confidence that you're _not_ one of the neopros we're talking about.
>> Trust me on this one.
>
>I am though. I definitely thought "Now I can go to cons like I do anyway
>and claim the expenses against tax, huzzah!" which is one of the sins you
>listed.
No, you _can_ go to cons like you do anyway and claim the expenses
against tax. That wasn't the complaint. The complaint was that, not
realizing that you can do that anyway (or affecting not to know it),
some use their pro status as a way to bulldoze their way onto panels
they haven't been invited to appear on by claiming that it is
necessary for them to write it off. This is unnecessary because going
and pressing the flesh is all the excuse you need to write it off,
especially if, say, you shmooze with some hot-shit editor like, say,
Patrick Nielsen Hayden. Or your colleagues in SFWA. Or someone who
has been known to write an sf review in some fanzine.
>As I still don't see anything wrong with that, I clearly need the guide.
>
>I also need a good answer to all the questions about how to beat the
>system and get published, other than "What system?"
The answer is: Write good and know the market.
Avedon Carol
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <37F177B7...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>, Irv Koch
><irv...@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> writes
>>The current issue of SFWA Bulletin, for sale to anyone with the money
>><G> has a decent article on attending cons ... for pros who need
>>education about such. I don't know where the author, Rothman, ran into
>>so many cons that don't even give pros on the program a free membership
>>(other than Worldcons and a few other special cases), and, of course, he
>>comes at it from the pro's viewpoint ("we draw paying customers,
>>yuhhhccch"),
>
>Do pros draw paying customers? I'm not suggesting they don't, but in
>the UK, at least, how many people's choice of whether or not to go to an
>Eastercon turns on the pros attending? (as opposed to, say, an overseas
>GoH...) I attend about two Worldcons in three, if they're places I want
>to visit or if I've personal reason to believe the committee will put on
>a good show, but the GoH doesn't figure in my choice at all.
Well, um, there are some conventions where looking at the guest lists
tells you enough about the convention to tell you whether you want to
be there or not. If I see names like Octavia Butler & Samuel Delany,
that suggests a different kind of convention from one where the guests
all have names like "Jerry Pournelle" and "Larry Niven". And I know
I'd rather hang out at a convention where people called "Dave
Langford", "Iain Banks" and "Terry Pratchett" are likely to be found
in the bar than one where they aren't. If you get my drift.
But in most respects that's still a fannish way of looking at it,
because I know that who the guests are determines not just which pros
I might end up seeing, but which fans are likely to attend and what
the atmosphere of the convention is likely to be. This effect can,
however, be achieved without the use of any pro names at all, simply
by establishing the intentions of the con in the PR junk. And anyway,
if I'm going to a convention because I want to see one of the pros,
it's less likely to be because I'm a fan of their work than because
these are people I already know and like - just like plenty of fans
who haven't published any sf books.
>Veering off topic, what *I'd* love to see is some consensus on GoHs.
>What should the con, and the GoH, expect of each other? I thought I
>knew, and I've very much enjoyed most of the cons I've been guest at --
>but over the years I've run into suggestions that the GoH should find
>'sponsors' for hotel and airfare,
These people do not know what the word "guest" means.
>cons who demanded that I attend no
>other cons within a certain (large) area before their con (I could see
>their point, but then they collapsed) a failed bid that pretended it
>hadn't, presumably so a fan could keep writing letters to me, and...much
>worse.
I don't think you'll find these behaviors are within the standard
range of expectations of guests of honor.
>That's made me write *very* carefully worded letters these
>days:-)
Wise move.
Kate Schaefer
>On Thu, 30 Sep 99 17:38:35 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>
>
>>Well, we do, but we do it by alphabetical order, so yours would be
>>Dop.
>>
>>Still want to sign up?
>>
>>Yes/No/Bollocks
>
>Sorry, but Doug Wickstrom gets Doug McCallum. Dop ends up with Doreen
>Rogers.
I hope this is merely an academic exercise, but I do intend to visit the UK
some day. What partner will I be assigned?
With trepidation,
Kate Schaefer
Mike Scott
>I hope this is merely an academic exercise, but I do intend to visit the UK
>some day. What partner will I be assigned?
>
>With trepidation,
>Kate Schaefer
Kate Solomon, I should think.
Kate Schaefer
>
>>I hope this is merely an academic exercise, but I do intend to visit the
UK
>>some day. What partner will I be assigned?
>>
>>With trepidation,
>>Kate Schaefer
>
>Kate Solomon, I should think.
Ah. A fan I don't know with the same first name and same last initial.
Seems fair; in the US, I'm constantly being mistaken for (insofar as 'given
the name badge of' is equivalent to 'being mistaken for') people with the
same first initial and homonymic last name. A variant treatment for a
different country.
Michael P. Kube-McDowell
writer who can no longer claim to be a neo (first sale 20 years ago
last August, first con 17 years ago):
Before a second marriage and new children altered the equation for
con-going, I was fairly active on the US con circuit, particularly in
the Midwest (I lived in Indiana and Michigan). I generally had at
least one GOH/TM gig a year, plus three-to-five other cons as an "Also
Attending..." With extremely rare exception, all of those other cons
were within a four or five hour drive of home; anything farther away
would require flying, which is another way of saying it required money
that I usually didn't have. (A longer drive would require energy I
usually didn't have.)
But throughout the last 20 years, I've received many letters of
invitation from cons all across the US, far outside my "home range."
Most of the time these appear to be form letters, or at least shotgun
mailings.
Now, I enjoy cons, and an inventory finds that most of my friends
these days are fans (active or gafiated). I married a fan and former
huckster, and I even have been known to filk--loudly.
But I don't think I'm the only writer for whom these solicitations
often read, roughly, "Dear [Your Name Here], Please spend several
hundred dollars to come a thousand miles to our convention. We'll put
your name on the flyer and your body on two panels, and give you a
free membership, with a discounted membership for your spouse." And
I've always wondered what the concom's underlying expectations are
when they send them out. I don't know many writers who have a $5,000
annual travel & self-promotion budget that they perennially have
trouble figuring out how to spend. <wry g>
Which brings me at last to the question: if a writer receives an
invitation from a con that he _would_ be interested in attending but
for the cost being prohibitive in his circumstances, is it viewed as a
terrible pushy-pro breach of etiquette for him to politely say "Sounds
like a great con, I like the folks I know who are coming, I wish I
could join you, but I'm afraid I'm just not able to swing it--unless,
perhaps, you can offer some assistance"? Would such a letter of
response inevitably be read as "Look, this guy we've never heard of
thinks we should pay him to come to our con"?
The question is not a theoretical one. I know from my own experience
that there are (or, at least, have been) some cons which have been
both able and willing to quietly (and even not so quietly) comp a room
or reimburse mileage for their minor guests. And I also know from my
own experience that a couple of hundred dollars of assistance can make
the difference between going and not going. You're willing to take the
time, the car probably won't break down and you can get there on a
tank and a half of gas, you know how to eat cheap, but those
$90-a-night hotel rooms--ouch!
Do concoms consider those issues when inviting potential
guests/participants from far off, or are they just hoping to snag that
rare writer who'll drive twelve hours instead of six, or can plunk for
a plane ticket?
Best,
K-Mac
- Michael P. Kube-McDowell, co-author of THE TRIGGER
- Utility sideman for the world's loudest filk ensemble,
The Black Book Band - info at www.sff.net/people/K-Mac
- Partly responsible for FIRST CONTACT (Dodeka DR-10011D)
Rob Hansen
>I hope this is merely an academic exercise, but I do intend to visit the UK
>some day. What partner will I be assigned?
>
>With trepidation,
>Kate Schaefer
Let's see...Schaefer.....that would be D.M. Sherwood.
--
Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/
mike weber
Wed, 29 Sep 1999 17:02:36 -0400,
:
>Speaking of which, if you're going to do a full meal at the end
>(Chattacon again), buffet, it's a good thing to let the GoH and
>companion go first. Picky point; just had to add SOMETHING.
>
Given the Horrible Example of the first Kubla Khon...
--
===============================================================================
Dogs can't REALLY smell fear. mike weber
Dogs CAN smell wet pants. kras...@mindspring.com
Half-Finished Website of Xeno: http://weberworld.virtualave.net
mike weber
Sep 1999 21:40:31 +0100,
:
>In article <XqlQEOAO...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
><tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>Do pros draw paying customers?
>The right choice of GoH will prompt some small number of fans to attend,
>a different set for every GoH. There are a few who would attract a large
>number of people if their name was used outside the traditional fannish
>catchment area. The initials ACC and TP come to mind.
The 1983 DeepSouthCon had Steven king as GOH. They promoted it
outside the fannish community. I dunno if any DSC since has been
bigger, but it was certainly the biggest to date at that time.
mike weber
Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:54:39 -0400,
:
>Terry Pratchett wrote:
>> other cons within a certain (large) area before their con (I could see
>> their point, but then they collapsed) a failed bid that pretended it
>
>The "non-attendance" feature is one I've never seen before, for a con,
>and find very hard to "stomach."
>
I'd say it signals a con i wouldn't want to attend, wither as guest or
member.
--
"History doesn't always repeat itself... sometimes it just
screams 'Why don't you listen when I'm talking to you?' and
lets fly with a club." JWC,Jr.
<mike weber> <kras...@mindspring.com>
Ambitious Incomplete web site: http://weberworld.virtualave.net
mike weber
1999 16:50:01 GMT,
:
>
>"We draw paying customers" really only works for a few
>"name" pros. However, I'd be willing to grant that if a con uses
>a pro's name in publicity as part of a guest list or whatever,
>they have a decent argument about possibly contributing to
>attendance.
Knoxville, '83 -- S. King. Mob Scene.
>What frosts me are the pros who claim that even
>if they're not on the program and therefore are not part of
>the publicity or contributing to the convention itself, they
>*still* should get a free membership just because they're a
>writer and they're at the con. As if their writerly essence
>drifting down the hallway somehow enhances the con...
>
Atlanta. '82 -- me hiding from K.Laumer.
tomwomack00
Josh Hesse <0009...@bigred.unl.edu> wrote in message
news:7t0mbv$e78$1...@unlnews.unl.edu...
> I do know that if I suggest somebody who was a
> GoH at a con >300 mi and >2 years, it would get shot down because of
> that reason.
Um, I hope your arrows are misdirected, or this would become an extremely
Balkanised fandom ...
Tom
Ruth Saunders
> Which brings me at last to the question: if a writer receives an
> invitation from a con that he _would_ be interested in attending but
> for the cost being prohibitive in his circumstances, is it viewed as a
> terrible pushy-pro breach of etiquette for him to politely say "Sounds
> like a great con, I like the folks I know who are coming, I wish I
> could join you, but I'm afraid I'm just not able to swing it--unless,
> perhaps, you can offer some assistance"? Would such a letter of
> response inevitably be read as "Look, this guy we've never heard of
> thinks we should pay him to come to our con"?
Not in my book, and in my time as a conrunner I have received such
letters, though mostly from actors. I was involved (and no doubt at some
stage will be involved again) with media cons. We would usually pass the
letter round at the next meeting (or these days email the committee)
with the comment, "We've received this letter from [insert name here]
they are interested in coming to the con as a guest, what shall we do?"
In some cases, we genuinely didn't know what the person had done to
imagine that we might be interested in them, so if the potential guest
feels zie may fall into this category, a line about why you are
connected to the purpose of the con might be nice. Just to jog the
harassed concom's memory.
Occasionally, a really good guest, whom we might have asked had we
thought they would be interested in coming has contacted us, but too
late to be considered. This happened I think with the last con I was
involved with, though it might have been the one before that, when a
British actor now resident in the US contacted us via his agent asking
to be a guest. And though it was obvious that his real motive was
actually to visit his family in Britain, we could understand that and we
would have paid for him to come had we not already spent the guest
budget on other people. So to any guests who might like to do that, I'd
say: don't leave it until three weeks before the con before you approach
the concom.
> I know from my own experience
> that there are (or, at least, have been) some cons which have been
> both able and willing to quietly (and even not so quietly) comp a room
> or reimburse mileage for their minor guests. And I also know from my
> own experience that a couple of hundred dollars of assistance can make
> the difference between going and not going. You're willing to take the
> time, the car probably won't break down and you can get there on a
> tank and a half of gas, you know how to eat cheap, but those
> $90-a-night hotel rooms--ouch!
>
> Do concoms consider those issues when inviting potential
> guests/participants from far off, or are they just hoping to snag that
> rare writer who'll drive twelve hours instead of six, or can plunk for
> a plane ticket?
I can't speak for all concoms, but when we invited people as a headline
guest, we would pay for travel, rooms, meals and we wouldn't charge for
a membership. *Very* occasionally - and because we were a media con -
we'd pay an appearance fee. The 'cost' of a guest included all of these
things, which is why (as we got tired of explaining to people) there is
no such thing as a cost-free guest. Cost-free people are those who are
already members whom we ask to take part in events, but we wouldn't list
those as guests. I fully accept that in SF con-running the situation is
a lot different.
This could also be why 'guest events' have a higher profile at a media
event than an SF event, chances are they are costing the con more and
the concom feels that they want to get the attendees their money's
worth.
As I said, if we were contacted early enough, we would consider paying
for these even if the guest has invited themselves, but the negotiations
might not be so straightforward, particularly if the guest was letting
us in for several hundred pounds of plane fares. But if it was someone
in the UK who was driving and (for instance) we were in an area they
wanted to visit, we'd probably pay for that.
A lot, though, would depend on who the guest was... <grin> but isn't
that always the case?
--
Ruth S.
le...@redrose76.freeserve.co.uk
Red Rose Convention
(multi-media slash convention)
4-6 August 2000, Telford.
Webpage: http://members.aol.com/hbrown9628/britslash.htm
Elisabeth Carey
<snip>
> But throughout the last 20 years, I've received many letters of
> invitation from cons all across the US, far outside my "home range."
> Most of the time these appear to be form letters, or at least shotgun
> mailings.
>
> Now, I enjoy cons, and an inventory finds that most of my friends
> these days are fans (active or gafiated). I married a fan and former
> huckster, and I even have been known to filk--loudly.
>
> But I don't think I'm the only writer for whom these solicitations
> often read, roughly, "Dear [Your Name Here], Please spend several
> hundred dollars to come a thousand miles to our convention. We'll put
> your name on the flyer and your body on two panels, and give you a
> free membership, with a discounted membership for your spouse." And
> I've always wondered what the concom's underlying expectations are
> when they send them out. I don't know many writers who have a $5,000
> annual travel & self-promotion budget that they perennially have
> trouble figuring out how to spend. <wry g>
The concom's underlying expectations are that the vast majority of
potential program invitees (whether writer, artist, editor, or fan)
who receive such invitations for cons way outside their usual congoing
circuit will decline them, but sometimes one will hit an invitee who,
for whatever combination of reasons, will decide that they want to
make that trip. If they do come, the con may gain an interesting
program participant who isn't normally available in their area; if
they don't, well, what's a letter cost? As long as the concom is
reasonably sure that the person would be a good addition if they did
come, it's something that has no down side.
> Which brings me at last to the question: if a writer receives an
> invitation from a con that he _would_ be interested in attending but
> for the cost being prohibitive in his circumstances, is it viewed as a
> terrible pushy-pro breach of etiquette for him to politely say "Sounds
> like a great con, I like the folks I know who are coming, I wish I
> could join you, but I'm afraid I'm just not able to swing it--unless,
> perhaps, you can offer some assistance"? Would such a letter of
> response inevitably be read as "Look, this guy we've never heard of
> thinks we should pay him to come to our con"?
You to remember that such a letter would be received by a bunch of
people who are spending lots of their _own_ time and money and labor
to make the con happen. Very few conventions are profitable for the
groups that run them; even when they are, the money gets ploughed back
into seed money for the next convention, and other fannish activities.
That any given program invitee, whose contribution to the con will be
the use of their name on a flyer, and being on a couple of panels, and
hanging out in the consuite or the bar, should have their expenses
paid in whole or in part, is not, to the concom, the intrinsically
reasonable thing that it sometimes appears to writers who were not
fans prior to their first sale, and who think of what they're doing as
a "professional appearance".
> The question is not a theoretical one. I know from my own experience
> that there are (or, at least, have been) some cons which have been
> both able and willing to quietly (and even not so quietly) comp a room
> or reimburse mileage for their minor guests.
Conventions--or at least, conventions run in a fiscally responsible
manner, that don't run deficits and can consequently happen again the
next year, and the next, and the next--don't do this for just anyone.
They do it on an extremely special-case basis, for program invitees
that they know well and whose circumstances they personally know, that
have a strong prior relationship with that con, or they do it for
people who truly are "minor Guests", people who are not the Guest of
Honor, but who the con has compelling con-related reasons to want
there. I'd like to give examples, but any examples would either be so
specific as to risk identifying the people involved, or not specific
enough, and give an overly broad impression of when a convention might
decide it's the right thing to do.
But such a request coming from a writer the con has no prior
experience with, to whom they've sent general program invitation on
the chance that they _might_ decide to come and be interesting, is
definitely going to be a red flag, because too many of the writers who
make such requests of cons they have no prior connection with turn out
to have an exaggerated notion of the importance of writers to cons,
and to be difficult to work with in other ways, too. This is not to
say that all are, or that you are (I honestly have no idea of what
you're like at a con); merely that _enough_ writers who do this are
that it will tend to scare off concoms that have any experience.
> And I also know from my
> own experience that a couple of hundred dollars of assistance can make
> the difference between going and not going. You're willing to take the
> time, the car probably won't break down and you can get there on a
> tank and a half of gas, you know how to eat cheap, but those
> $90-a-night hotel rooms--ouch!
Okay, now take that "couple of hundred dollars of assistance", and
multiply it by the number of pro writers on the program at the
convention you're going to. Say we're talking about a medium-sized
con, that does weight its program participant list somewhat but not
overwhelmingly towards writers--say they have forty writers on
program. Do the math.
And then consider that the artists on program are in much the same
situation, except that they probably also want to transport some of
their art, which is an additional expense.
And then consider any non-local fans on program, who are in _exactly_
the same position as the writers and the artists, it costs money to go
to a con and a couple hundred dollars would be a _huge_ help--except
that for the fans, unlike the writers and the artists, convention
attendence is NOT a tax-deductible business expense.
When writers ask for monetary assistance to attend a con that they'll
merely be another program participant at, not the GoH, they are,
whether they mean to or not, saying that their contributions are more
valuable than those of any fans, who may in fact be better on panels,
or who may be working long hours not only during the convention but
for months before to make the con happen.
And the people they're asking to agree with that theory are the fans
who are working the long hours during and for months before the
convention to make the con happen. They're asking, however innocently
and unintentionally, those hardworking fans to value their own
contributions, and their own expenses, lower than those of someone
who'll do two or three panels and then spend the rest of the weekend
just enjoying the con.
And applying such a policy generally would be the financial wreckage
of the con, while applying it, not generally, but widely enough to
affect the usual mix of program participants at the convention, would
_not_ remain secret and would create a good deal of justified
resentment amongst the unfavored program participants, and, a little
more slowly but even more unpleasantly, be the wreckage of the con.
So you can see why it's not a popular way to operate.
> Do concoms consider those issues when inviting potential
> guests/participants from far off, or are they just hoping to snag that
> rare writer who'll drive twelve hours instead of six, or can plunk for
> a plane ticket?
Fandom is a gift economy; it _can't_ operate any other way. If you
don't want to be part of fandom, you can confidently refuse to attend
any con that doesn't want you badly enough to make you a Guest.
But if you _do_ want to be part of fandom, you have to participate in
the gift economy. Obviously you then have to exercise judgment and
consult your own preferences in doing so. You don't publish a fanzine
or contribute to an apa if you don't enjoy it or find that it
interferes with your ability to do paying writing. You don't attend
conventions that you find you don't enjoy, or which are schedule at
such a time as to interfere with your making deadline on the new book,
or which you simply can't afford to attend.
But when you do attend a convention, you do it on the same basis as
everyone else, on your own dime, with maybe a free membership if
you've been asked to be on program, and intending to have a good time.
(And remembering that, even if turns out you don't have a good time,
at least it was a deductible business expense, and the concom member
who collapsed from exhaustion Sunday night in the Dead Dog, after four
consecutive twenty-hour days, doesn't have that consolation.)
Lis Carey
Elisabeth Carey
>
> "Michael P. Kube-McDowell" wrote:
<snip>
> > I know from my own experience
> > that there are (or, at least, have been) some cons which have been
> > both able and willing to quietly (and even not so quietly) comp a room
> > or reimburse mileage for their minor guests. And I also know from my
> > own experience that a couple of hundred dollars of assistance can make
> > the difference between going and not going. You're willing to take the
> > time, the car probably won't break down and you can get there on a
> > tank and a half of gas, you know how to eat cheap, but those
> > $90-a-night hotel rooms--ouch!
> >
> > Do concoms consider those issues when inviting potential
> > guests/participants from far off, or are they just hoping to snag that
> > rare writer who'll drive twelve hours instead of six, or can plunk for
> > a plane ticket?
>
> I can't speak for all concoms, but when we invited people as a headline
> guest, we would pay for travel, rooms, meals and we wouldn't charge for
> a membership. *Very* occasionally - and because we were a media con -
> we'd pay an appearance fee. The 'cost' of a guest included all of these
> things, which is why (as we got tired of explaining to people) there is
> no such thing as a cost-free guest. Cost-free people are those who are
> already members whom we ask to take part in events, but we wouldn't list
> those as guests. I fully accept that in SF con-running the situation is
> a lot different.
>
> This could also be why 'guest events' have a higher profile at a media
> event than an SF event, chances are they are costing the con more and
> the concom feels that they want to get the attendees their money's
> worth.
But, aside from the differences between a media convention and an sf
convention, and the further differences between a UK convention and a
US convention, you're clearly talking about _Guests_, and K-Mac is
talking about _program_ _participants_.
I believe that all conventions pay the expenses of _Guests_.
Lis Carey
Gary Farber
mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: Atlanta. '82 -- me hiding from K.Laumer.
Armed with that heavy cane, he was dangerous. And post-stroke, he was
always armed and cranky.
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; For Hire as: Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; Northeast US
Bernard Peek
McDowell <K-...@sff.NOSPAM.net> writes
>But I don't think I'm the only writer for whom these solicitations
>often read, roughly, "Dear [Your Name Here], Please spend several
>hundred dollars to come a thousand miles to our convention. We'll put
>your name on the flyer and your body on two panels, and give you a
>free membership, with a discounted membership for your spouse." And
>I've always wondered what the concom's underlying expectations are
>when they send them out. I don't know many writers who have a $5,000
>annual travel & self-promotion budget that they perennially have
>trouble figuring out how to spend. <wry g>
>
>Which brings me at last to the question: if a writer receives an
>invitation from a con that he _would_ be interested in attending but
>for the cost being prohibitive in his circumstances, is it viewed as a
>terrible pushy-pro breach of etiquette for him to politely say "Sounds
>like a great con, I like the folks I know who are coming, I wish I
>could join you, but I'm afraid I'm just not able to swing it--unless,
>perhaps, you can offer some assistance"? Would such a letter of
>response inevitably be read as "Look, this guy we've never heard of
>thinks we should pay him to come to our con"?
There are two possibilities. They will say yes or they will say no. If
they say yes then you shall go to the Ball^H^H^H^Hcon. If they say they
have never heard of you what makes you think you would want to be there
anyway?
>
>The question is not a theoretical one. I know from my own experience
>that there are (or, at least, have been) some cons which have been
>both able and willing to quietly (and even not so quietly) comp a room
>or reimburse mileage for their minor guests. And I also know from my
>own experience that a couple of hundred dollars of assistance can make
>the difference between going and not going. You're willing to take the
>time, the car probably won't break down and you can get there on a
>tank and a half of gas, you know how to eat cheap, but those
>$90-a-night hotel rooms--ouch!
>
>Do concoms consider those issues when inviting potential
>guests/participants from far off, or are they just hoping to snag that
>rare writer who'll drive twelve hours instead of six, or can plunk for
>a plane ticket?
The rule for all the conventions I've worked for in the UK is that if
you write to someone and ask then they are a guest and you pay their
expenses. So the situation you describe isn't going to arise.
If someone writes to the con and asks to be put on the programme then I
teat them as a hired entertainer. How much will they cost, how many
memberships will they bring in?
While working on the 95 Worldcon I got a form letter from a well-known
media fan suggesting that I would like to pay them to attend the con.
They would of course expect free memberships for themselves and family,
and air-fares too of course.
That one hit the round file so fast the cerenkov radiation bleached the
paintwork.
Elisabeth Carey
How do you get program participants _other_ than Guests? That
certainly appears to be what K-Mac is talking about--people who are
asked by the con, not to be "Guests", but to participate in the
program, in the form of being on a few panels.
All the cons I attend, or care to attend, would be very, very
different if they had no participants other than the Guests of Honor,
and they'd be broke and sunk entirely from sight if they tried to pay
expenses for every single program participant. And finally, it's kinda
tough to know whether someone is intending to attend your convention
and willing to be on program, if you don't write and _ask_.
There may be a certain amount of confusion being created by the
pernicious practice of _some_ conventions, of calling all program
participants "guests", small "g", thus not always making a clear
distinction between "Guests of Honor", for whom expenses are paid, and
program participants, who may get a free membership, depending on
local practice.
> If someone writes to the con and asks to be put on the programme then I
> teat them as a hired entertainer. How much will they cost, how many
> memberships will they bring in?
And are you interested, at present, in increasing the number of
memberships for this con?
> While working on the 95 Worldcon I got a form letter from a well-known
> media fan suggesting that I would like to pay them to attend the con.
> They would of course expect free memberships for themselves and family,
> and air-fares too of course.
>
> That one hit the round file so fast the cerenkov radiation bleached the
> paintwork.
Of course! But similar treatment of similar unsolicited suggestions
from pros is also generally appropriate. It's the host that does the
inviting, not the guest, or the Guest.
The idea is to gather a congenial and interesting group of people
together for the weekend, not to hire paid entertainers for the
ticket-buying crowd.
Lis Carey
Nancy Lebovitz
Ruth Saunders <le...@redrose76.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Occasionally, a really good guest, whom we might have asked had we
>thought they would be interested in coming has contacted us, but too
>late to be considered. This happened I think with the last con I was
>involved with, though it might have been the one before that, when a
>British actor now resident in the US contacted us via his agent asking
>to be a guest. And though it was obvious that his real motive was
>actually to visit his family in Britain, we could understand that and we
>would have paid for him to come had we not already spent the guest
>budget on other people. So to any guests who might like to do that, I'd
>say: don't leave it until three weeks before the con before you approach
>the concom.
>
the fannish gift economy, and suggests that media conventions have
a lot more money to work with.
If my experience is typical, then fan-run media conventions charge
a lot more for tables (but not nearly as much as professionally run
media cons)--still, I doubt that alone accounts for the difference
in funds.
Just checking on FarPoint, the memberships cost $45--about comparable
with print, etc. sf cons. I doubt that the art shows supply much more
money to the media cons. Is it just different in Britain? Is FarPoint
the wrong sample for a fan-run media con?
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com
Calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
mike weber
16:08:28 GMT,
:
>In <37f73881...@news.mindspring.com>
>mike weber <kras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>: Atlanta. '82 -- me hiding from K.Laumer.
>
>Armed with that heavy cane, he was dangerous. And post-stroke, he was
>always armed and cranky.
>
paying his hotel and travel and food bills because we'd invited him,
and threatening to do Bad Things to the Chairman if he caught him.
I was the Chair...
Ruth Saunders
> Cost-free people are those who are
> > already members whom we ask to take part in events, but we wouldn't list
> > those as guests. I fully accept that in SF con-running the situation is
> > a lot different.
Elisabeth Carey wrote:
> But, aside from the differences between a media convention and an sf
> convention, and the further differences between a UK convention and a
> US convention, you're clearly talking about _Guests_, and K-Mac is
> talking about _program_ _participants_.
Not as far as I could see.
> > "Michael P. Kube-McDowell" wrote:
> > > I know from my own experience
> > > that there are (or, at least, have been) some cons which have been
> > > both able and willing to quietly (and even not so quietly) comp a room
> > > or reimburse mileage for their minor guests.
Note that "minor guests". We'd do that for all guests, minor or
otherwise, though minor most definitely wouldn't get a smell of a fee.
Program participants - for the cons I was involved with - are pulled
from the attending membership, generally they volunteer, sometimes we
use gentle persuasion, but they don't get anything more than a free
drink. On the other hand, they were coming anyway. I think that's what
Lis means by panellists.
He did say:
> > > Do concoms consider those issues when inviting potential
> > > guests/participants
To clarify, we wouldn't send a formal invitation to a program
participant, we always strong-armed them from those who were already
coming to the con. I remember once in the early days one person we asked
if he might feel up to taking part in an event wrote back to say that as
he was now a guest, would we be paying his room bill? We told him that
if that was the price of his participation we'd manage some other way.
He decided he'd rather take part in the event than not. But to repeat,
we would not specifically invite a program participant, if it came to
that, we wouldn't run the program item.
Having said that, as far as what Lis said in her other post: what she
said. I couldn't put it better.
Terry Pratchett
<lis....@mediaone.net> writes
>The concom's underlying expectations are that the vast majority of
>potential program invitees (whether writer, artist, editor, or fan)
>who receive such invitations for cons way outside their usual congoing
>circuit will decline them, but sometimes one will hit an invitee who,
>for whatever combination of reasons, will decide that they want to
>make that trip. If they do come, the con may gain an interesting
>program participant who isn't normally available in their area; if
>they don't, well, what's a letter cost? As long as the concom is
>reasonably sure that the person would be a good addition if they did
>come, it's something that has no down side.
I get maybe three or four such invitations *from the US* every year,
because of shotgun mailing. They cause a momentary smile, because the
chances of my finding myself with a spare weekend in Humptulips, Wash.,
(picked at random, folks, if only because I never forget the name) is
remote. On the other hand, maybe one day there will be one from a city
I'd like to visit at a time when I'd like to be there (or that's
coinciding with a tour, or whatever.) Considered like that, it seems
harmless.
--
Terry Pratchett
Ruth Saunders
> > The rule for all the conventions I've worked for in the UK is that if
> > you write to someone and ask then they are a guest and you pay their
> > expenses. So the situation you describe isn't going to arise.
Elisabeth Carey wrote:
> How do you get program participants _other_ than Guests? That
> certainly appears to be what K-Mac is talking about--people who are
> asked by the con, not to be "Guests", but to participate in the
> program, in the form of being on a few panels.
Oh, them. As I said I don't know about all SF cons, but all the media
cons I've been involved with look through the attendee list, and
approach those who are already booked for the con who are
interesting/witty/have something to say/have been amusing at previous
events, and get them to take part. For doing this they might get a free
drink paid for out of petty cash. They will always get thanked at the
end of the event. I confess to finding the idea of writing to people to
get program participants faintly odd.
"Guest" is the same as "guest", in my book. You asked for them to be
there, you take (some) responsibility for their expenses. How much
responsibility is open to negotiation.
> And finally, it's kinda
> tough to know whether someone is intending to attend your convention
> and willing to be on program, if you don't write and _ask_.
You don't write to ask people to be program participants. You keep a
constant watching brief on who's signing up. As soon as someone
interesting parts with their money, you approach them to take part. You
also keep up the pressure for volunteers in the Progress Reports.
Alternatively, come the sad day you have to organise the program you
make sure that someone has brought the attendee list as the whole concom
will have a better chance of spotting likely people. The tech people can
also spot their mates that way as well.
> There may be a certain amount of confusion being created by the
> pernicious practice of _some_ conventions, of calling all program
> participants "guests",
Program participants are people who are taking part in some aspect of
the program. They may or may not be guests, but most of them won't be.
Guests are guests: people whom you have invited to come.
> The idea is to gather a congenial and interesting group of people
> together for the weekend, not to hire paid entertainers for the
> ticket-buying crowd.
Which is true of (most) media cons as well, at least in my experience.
Whatever guests you have are icing on the cake, it won't be a crap con
if they don't turn up. It's just harder to sell registrations for a
media con if you don't have any at all but if anyone's sad enough to
come just for the guests that's their lookout, they risk being badly
disappointed. Actors have a bad reputation for failing to appear. Though
having a good media con with no guests has been done, too.
Media cons that are not run for profit are run along almost exactly the
same lines as most SF cons, the main difference being that the cost of
the registration is likely to be somewhat higher, (more in the region of
around £35-£40 or around $45-$50) due largely to the fact that while
some writers will come to cons anyway, that's rarely true of actors.
They will need at least expenses paying.
The cons I've been involved with have had a limited guest list, and once
the budget was spoken for, it didn't matter who wrote to us and what
offer they were making, we were committed to the guests we had invited
and would not be able to fit in any more. I don't think we ever had a
guest from the US, that would have used up the whole of the budget and
more.
Ruth Saunders
> If my experience is typical, then fan-run media conventions charge
> a lot more for tables (but not nearly as much as professionally run
> media cons)--still, I doubt that alone accounts for the difference
> in funds.
I can't comment, I don't know how much media cons normally charge for
tables. I know the last con I was involved with charged around £10 ($15)
to fan dealers and around £20 ($30) to professional dealers per table.
That didn't include a membership, which caused some interesting
discussions with one of the pro dealers who had only ever attended one
con before, and that con had had a very different charging policy. The
other con had charged £50 ($75) per table, or so we found out later, but
that had included two memberships. The pro dealer didn't believe that
our table didn't include a membership, though that should have been
obvious from the price.
After that experience we were very careful to make it clear that our
table price was for the table and only the table. Dealers needed to buy
a membership as well. I don't *think* table rates would be enough the
account for the difference, the room we had wouldn't hold more than
about 15 tables.
> Just checking on FarPoint, the memberships cost $45--about comparable
> with print, etc. sf cons. I doubt that the art shows supply much more
> money to the media cons. Is it just different in Britain? Is FarPoint
> the wrong sample for a fan-run media con?
No that sounds about right, that's about £30. As I said, we used to
charge around £40, that comes to around $50-$55. Income from the art
show was minimal, and income from the auction was always ringfenced for
the charity. Maybe media cons just organise their expenditure
differently. I know we used to run on a shoestring for everything, the
howls of the tech crew when they heard their budget could be heard for
miles around. And our printing budget was always miniscule.
Do remember too, that in the UK we have no consuite which needs food
buying or bringing in. Hotels in the UK don't let conventions do that,
they want to sell food and drinks in the restaurants and bars and can
(and will) charge corkage if you have food in a public room which they
haven't been paid for.
Philip Plumbly
>In article <37F72DC0...@redrose76.freeserve.co.uk>,
>Ruth Saunders <le...@redrose76.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Occasionally, a really good guest, whom we might have asked had we
>>thought they would be interested in coming has contacted us, but too
>>late to be considered. This happened I think with the last con I was
>>involved with, though it might have been the one before that, when a
>>British actor now resident in the US contacted us via his agent
asking
>>to be a guest. And though it was obvious that his real motive was
>>actually to visit his family in Britain, we could understand that
and we
>>would have paid for him to come had we not already spent the guest
>>budget on other people. So to any guests who might like to do that,
I'd
>>say: don't leave it until three weeks before the con before you
approach
>>the concom.
>>
>All this shows a really different attitude than Lis' description of
>the fannish gift economy, and suggests that media conventions have
>a lot more money to work with.
>
>a lot more for tables (but not nearly as much as professionally run
>media cons)--still, I doubt that alone accounts for the difference
>in funds.
>
>with print, etc. sf cons. I doubt that the art shows supply much more
>money to the media cons. Is it just different in Britain? Is FarPoint
>the wrong sample for a fan-run media con?
In my experience, most fan run media cons in the UK charge a markedly
higher membership rate than mainstream SF cons. For example, Nexus a
media/literary crossover con in Bristol, starts it's memberships at
UKP40. Wincon in nearby Winchester, a literary/media crossover con
started at UKP20. The Nexus rate will probably end nearer UKP60 on the
door, Wincon ended at UKP35 on the door. Then Wincon didn't pay
appearance fees for any guests and both had to pay to fly guests from
the USA. Nexus, I know, will have to pay an appearance fee to some if
not all of their guests. I have no idea what Nexus charged for tables,
but there were a_lot_ of dealers there, including a team from the US.
Wincon charged UKP15 per table, but there weren't many dealers.
AFAIK Nexus has about half the membership of a UK Eastercon with a
similar size budget, mainly down to the cost of paying appearance
fees. Nexus is a smallish but fun, fan run media con that is now
making an attempt to crossover with the best that mainstream literary
cons can offer. But it has markedly stronger financial pressures than
any literary con of similar size in the UK.
I should add that I am not involved with the running of Nexus but
several of the committee are good friends, and I am going on what I
know of running an Eastercon, and Wincons, and what they tell me about
their con.
--
Phil Plumbly
South Hants SF Group,
2nd & 4th Tuesday evenings every month,
Lounge Bar, The Magpie Public House,
Fratton Road, Fratton, Portsmouth , UK
Come and visit, all welcome.
Gary Farber
:> Ruth Saunders wrote:
:> Cost-free people are those who are
:> > already members whom we ask to take part in events, but we wouldn't list
:> > those as guests. I fully accept that in SF con-running the situation is
:> > a lot different.
: Elisabeth Carey wrote:
:> But, aside from the differences between a media convention and an sf
:> convention, and the further differences between a UK convention and a
:> US convention, you're clearly talking about _Guests_, and K-Mac is
:> talking about _program_ _participants_.
: Not as far as I could see.
Apparently a media/sf con cultural difference. K-Mac was absolutely
clear; if he were a Guest of Honor, of course all his expenses would be
paid.
The key difference seems to be that media cons don't have the traditional
sf con concept of a "Guest of Honor." They hire "draws" to be seen,
instead. It has to be immediately said that the majority of contemporary
North American sf cons seem to have utterly lost the "Guest of Honor"
concept as well, despite sometimes using the phrase.
The concept of the "Guest of Honor" was that a convention committee would
determine that a particular writer or artist or editor, or set of the
above, and a particular fan, had not yet been sufficiently honored, at
least in that region. The concom would then set out to honor that person
or persons by choosing them as a Guest of Honor, and proceed to honor them
by focusing the convention program upon them, publishing a special
bibliography of their work, and tributes to the guest's work by peers, in
the convention program book, by having displays about the guest's work,
and by whatever other means occurred to the concom as a way of honoring
the Guest of honor: a play from their work, an exhibition about them,
panels discussing the work, and so on. The key point was that the
convention was bestowing a special honor upon the recipient; the benefit
to the convention was, in essence, incidental.
Most current conventions, being run by people who have, um, lost touch, or
never had such touch, with longtime sf con tradition, seem to have little
or no idea of this concept, and seem to simply be looking to hire an
entertainer or draw, or to simply invite someone they want to meet, at
best, and have no idea what "honor" means, if they even use the word at
all. The idea is just gone from most cons, it seems. This seems very
sad, and alienating, to me.
The concept of a "minor guest" is oxymoronic to a traditional sf con.
The idea that sf cons, however, in North America, at least, have many
program participants -- the pool depending upon the location of the con --
is the norm, as is sending out invitations to prospective program
participants.
John Dallman
wrote:
< Lots of good sense on guests>
> The concept of a "minor guest" is oxymoronic to a traditional sf con.
I think there's more flexibility than that. I've seen concepts like
"Guest" and "special guest" who get the same membership, travel &
accommodation benefits, but don't get all the "of honour" fuss made about
them. The reasons for inviting them are assorted, to say the least, but
that's fine with me: I'd never have met Naomi Mitchinson, or Alisdair
Grey, if Faircon '84 and Speculation, respectively, hadn't been feeling
like expanding their horizons a little.
> The idea that sf cons, however, in North America, at least, have many
> program participants -- the pool depending upon the location of the con
> -- is the norm, as is sending out invitations to prospective program
> participants.
Agreed. Some cons have been know to offer free memberships to people who
they thought they'd like to have along, but weren't going to treat as full
guests.
---
John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk
Marilee J. Layman
<K-...@sff.NOSPAM.net> wrote:
>Which brings me at last to the question: if a writer receives an
>invitation from a con that he _would_ be interested in attending but
>for the cost being prohibitive in his circumstances, is it viewed as a
>terrible pushy-pro breach of etiquette for him to politely say "Sounds
>like a great con, I like the folks I know who are coming, I wish I
>could join you, but I'm afraid I'm just not able to swing it--unless,
>perhaps, you can offer some assistance"? Would such a letter of
>response inevitably be read as "Look, this guy we've never heard of
>thinks we should pay him to come to our con"?
:::borrowing Miss Manner's hat::: The proper way to do that
response is: "Sounds like a great con, I like the folks I know who
are coming, I wish I could join you, but I'm afraid I'm just not able
to swing it financially." If they want to help you out, they'll let
you know, and you haven't asked for anything.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
relm...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
Web site: http://www.webmoose.com/owc/
AOL keyword: BOOKs > Chats & Message > SF Forum > The Other*Worlds*Cafe
Erik V. Olson
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I get maybe three or four such invitations *from the US* every year,
>because of shotgun mailing.
(Snip)
>Considered like that, it seems harmless.
>
I guess it is harmless, but it bothers me.
<RANT>One of the worst thing about US culture is the attitude about
"shotgunning" everything. Send out a million letters, a million
billboards, a million e-mails, and your bound to get *something*.
I hate that. I hate that Direct Marketing (Which is Direct Marketing
speak for targeted junkmail) considers a mailing a success if they get
a 2% response rate. I hate that my country even considers that
"shouting from on high" is the only viable way to do business, and
that the only measures of acceptance are based on how many times they
can shove a message onto you. </RANT>
Sorry. But even a glance at a letter should tell the concommie sending
it-"Hmm. I'm about to ask a very popular author if he's willing to fly
6000+- miles, and get a room for a weekend, all on his own chit. Maybe
I shouldn't do this..."
>--
>Terry Pratchett
--
Erik Olson, SFOF. er...@NOSPAMmo.net : Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
Ceci N'est pas une sig : There *was* no cabal
Vicki Rosenzweig
wrote:
>On 2 Oct 1999 17:04:42 GMT, "Kate Schaefer" <ka...@oz.net> wrote:
>
>>I hope this is merely an academic exercise, but I do intend to visit the UK
>>some day. What partner will I be assigned?
>>
>>With trepidation,
>>Kate Schaefer
>
>Let's see...Schaefer.....that would be D.M. Sherwood.
Aaargh!
Okay, who do I get?
And if I manage to convince Andy to come over with me,
do we each get issued a partner, or do we share one?
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
"I get by with a little help from my friends." -- Lennon/McCartney