UK/US Cultural Difference (and a malapropism)

Rob Hansen

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98

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A few weeks back I read an article by Christopher Hitchens, a British
journalist living in America, which pointed out a rather intresting
difference between our two countries when it came to gym 'rules'. As
he pointed out, over here people often affect a casual, almost
dismissive air about working out even when they're very serious about
it, whereas in the US, according to Hitchens, the opposite situation
applies with people doing their level best to appear serious and
committed about working out, even when they're not. I make no claims
for the superiority of one approach over the other (these are always
tedious and often lead to unfortunate displays of jingoism) but the
contrast struck me as an interesting one that might be reflected in
other areas.

In the same article, Hitchens mentioned a lovely malapropism he'd
heard in an American gym when one young woman said of another that she
was "too self-defecating". One to treasure.

Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/

Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98

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In article <3535e756...@news.demon.co.uk>, r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk
(Rob Hansen) writes:

>A few weeks back I read an article by Christopher Hitchens, a British
>journalist living in America, which pointed out a rather intresting
>difference between our two countries when it came to gym 'rules'. As
>he pointed out, over here people often affect a casual, almost
>dismissive air about working out even when they're very serious about
>it, whereas in the US, according to Hitchens, the opposite situation
>applies with people doing their level best to appear serious and
>committed about working out, even when they're not. I make no claims
>for the superiority of one approach over the other (these are always
>tedious and often lead to unfortunate displays of jingoism) but the
>contrast struck me as an interesting one that might be reflected in
>other areas.

See also an ancient cartoon, which I found in my parents' copy of
_The Best Cartoons From Punch_, in which there are two men in the
drawing room. One's looking at a row of impressive sports trophies on
a mantelpiece. The other is saying "Oh, those? Games were
compulsory."

[Gross generalizations coming] I believe the Brit Done Thing is to
take a tone of amused self-deprecation about any personal
accomplishment, while the American Done Thing is to, perhaps, not
bring up the subject oneself, but to brag unrestrainedly once asked
about it. [This is why Flashman can truthfully say "I was just lucky,
really" and be taken for a True Hero.]

I have gotten hassled, here, when I do the amused self-deprecation
thing, for being down on myself.

You can find Brit characterizations of the standard-issue American as
a braggart and blowhard in literature back to the early nineteenth
century at least, so I think this stylistic distinction predates gym
culture by a good deal.

-- Alan

===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210
===============================================================================

Ulrika

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In article <009C4C12...@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,

win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:

>You can find Brit characterizations of the standard-issue American as
>a braggart and blowhard in literature back to the early nineteenth
>century at least, so I think this stylistic distinction predates gym
>culture by a good deal.

It may even extend beyond the distinction between self-deprecatory Brits and
braggart Americans, insofar as it seems that Britons may be more acculturated
against personal revelations generally (I remember Pam Wells saying that being
under psychiatric care is still something leaning toward the Just Not Discussed
category among Brits, whereas What Therapy I'm In Now goes in and out of high
fashion in the US), and Americans more trained to be volubly on about
themselves (whether in the form of bragging, or more general self-revelation).

Certainly, one of the things that came out on my TAFF trip was that in Britain,
even women aren't supposed to talk to each other while in the toilet -- though
it seems to me that fannish Brit women do. (In the US, men are strongly
forbidden from chatting once they step up to the urinal...or so I'm told.) In
the US it's not unheard of for a woman to find herself drawn into conversation
with total strangers -- on amazingly personal subjects -- while in the loo.
This leads me to wonder if the phenomenon of all the women trooping off to the
bathroom in joint, roving gangs is an American phenomenon. (The reader may
draw his own conclusions as to what this little aside has to do with the
tendency to personal revelations, generally.)

At any rate, the old chestnut about Brits finding Americans sort of
horrifyingly forward and familiar may be another aspect of this Americans Talk
About Themselves and Brits Don't theory that I'm spinning up as I go. Discuss.

Ulrika O'Brien, Philosopher Without Portfolio

***ulr...@aol.com***

Maureen Kincaid Speller

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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On 16 Apr 1998 02:59:05 GMT, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:

>Certainly, one of the things that came out on my TAFF trip was that in Britain,
>even women aren't supposed to talk to each other while in the toilet -- though
>it seems to me that fannish Brit women do.

My experience agrees with this in all aspects, though I probably
wouldn't talk if I thought there were strangers around as well.

One of the worst moments of the Eastercon was when someone called me
on the radio while I was in the loo. As I had a headset on, no one
heard the initial call but they all heard me talking to myself as I
answered.

>(In the US, men are strongly
>forbidden from chatting once they step up to the urinal...or so I'm told.) In
>the US it's not unheard of for a woman to find herself drawn into conversation
>with total strangers -- on amazingly personal subjects -- while in the loo.
>This leads me to wonder if the phenomenon of all the women trooping off to the
>bathroom in joint, roving gangs is an American phenomenon. (The reader may
>draw his own conclusions as to what this little aside has to do with the
>tendency to personal revelations, generally.)

No, it's common enough for women here to go off in gangs as well.

Maureen

Maureen Kincaid Speller
m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk
http://www.acnestis.demon.co.uk

Gary Farber

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In <3537a379...@news.demon.co.uk> Maureen Kincaid Speller <m...@acnestis.demon.co.uk> wrote:

: On 16 Apr 1998 02:59:05 GMT, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:

: >Certainly, one of the things that came out on my TAFF trip was that in Britain,
: >even women aren't supposed to talk to each other while in the toilet -- though
: >it seems to me that fannish Brit women do.

: My experience agrees with this in all aspects, though I probably
: wouldn't talk if I thought there were strangers around as well.

: One of the worst moments of the Eastercon was when someone called me
: on the radio while I was in the loo. As I had a headset on, no one
: heard the initial call but they all heard me talking to myself as I
: answered.

It could have been much worse: you could have

a) had to have had a radio conversation with someone in an adjoining stall

and

b) had to have been replying "yes, I do have some toilet paper in this
one; I'll get it to you forthwith."

[. . . .]
--
--
Copyright 1998 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US

David G. Bell

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In article <199804160259...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
ulr...@aol.com "Ulrika" writes:

> At any rate, the old chestnut about Brits finding Americans sort of
> horrifyingly forward and familiar may be another aspect of this Americans Talk
> About Themselves and Brits Don't theory that I'm spinning up as I go. Discuss.

Another factor in this is the idea of personal space; of how close you
get to somebody while you are talking with them.

It is alleged that British diplomats are more aware of cultural
differences in this, and one may see in Arabia any number of American
diplomats slowly and continuously backing away from Arabs at Embassy
parties, while the British merely maintain a stiff upper lip and endure
the psychological discomfort.

--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

Chris Croughton

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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Ulrika wrote:
>
> It may even extend beyond the distinction between self-deprecatory Brits and
> braggart Americans, insofar as it seems that Britons may be more acculturated
> against personal revelations generally (I remember Pam Wells saying that being
> under psychiatric care is still something leaning toward the Just Not Discussed
> category among Brits, whereas What Therapy I'm In Now goes in and out of high
> fashion in the US), and Americans more trained to be volubly on about
> themselves (whether in the form of bragging, or more general self-revelation).

It's true. Less true, I've found, in fandom (whether this is because of
American influence on British fandom I leave as an exercise for the
reader).
In fact it's more general than that - medical matters (not just
psychiatric)
are much closer to Things Not Talked About with Brits, especially
English
men.

> Certainly, one of the things that came out on my TAFF trip was that in Britain,
> even women aren't supposed to talk to each other while in the toilet -- though
> it seems to me that fannish Brit women do.

Not just fannish ones, most non-fannish British women I know also
talk in the toilets. Whether they do so as much as American women
I don't know.

> (In the US, men are strongly
> forbidden from chatting once they step up to the urinal...or so I'm told.)

In Britain as well, even if they know each other well. It used to
be associated with being gay (back when homosexuality was a Really
Bad Thing(tm) in society), but I suspect it was always more general
than that, just something Not Done.

> At any rate, the old chestnut about Brits finding Americans sort of
> horrifyingly forward and familiar may be another aspect of this Americans Talk
> About Themselves and Brits Don't theory that I'm spinning up as I go. Discuss.

It's not untrue, I'd certainly regard it as one of the aspects. Another
is personal space and touching - southern Brits (like me) tend to have
a much larger "exclusion zone" and be much more anti-contact than
northerners and Americans (I'm referring to men, here; women are a
different pot of lizards and I don't really understand them <g>).

(Note all the generalisations above - I'm aware that they are
generalisations and therefore there are a lot of exceptions...)

Chris C

Ulrika

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In article <892712...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk

("David G. Bell") writes:

>It is alleged that British diplomats are more aware of cultural
>differences in this, and one may see in Arabia any number of
>American diplomats slowly and continuously backing away from
>Arabs at Embassy parties, while the British merely maintain a stiff >upper lip
and endure the psychological discomfort.

Funny, because one of the differences I haven't been able
to entirely distill into a clear description is the way British
sensitivities about personal space seem to be much *less*
attunded than American ones, at least in crowds, especially
in moving crowds, leading to my internal Rude Bastard claxons
going off with unexpected regularity. When Hal and I were
travelling together, it became utterly routine (though unexpected
based on previous experience) to find some Brit shoving
between us when we were walking together in a crowd. Even
on my own, I kept finding Britons blithely happy to elbow and
barge past, utterly unwilling to yeild way in situations where an American
would, based on physical proximity alone. (The
Brits however, were not as bad in this respect as the eternal,
bloody adolescent French tour groups, who were forever walking
me into walls and things out of sheer self-centered obliviousness
to the fact that I had yeilded as much way as I could and they
should bloody well shove over, themselves -- on the other, other
hand, the French respond to being glowered at, by apologizing, whereas the
Brits do not.)

What it seems to come down to, thinking about it, is that
Americans can, generally, be compelled to move in certain
ways, simply by stepping into their personal space, and Britons,
by and large, can't. Brits may well not like you getting that close,
but they're damned if they're going to acknowledge your presence
by reacting to it, let alone budging, for all that. This difference also
got me squeezed into an ever diminishing corner during the
sweltering and stagnant Tube Ride From Hell on the eve of the
Jubilee pubmeet, by an amorous West Indian couple who kept
wiggling farther and farther into the space I'd originally held and
forcing me, ever deeper and smaller, into the corner by the doors
and off the pole I was hanging onto, by slow degrees. That, and the prolonged
dead stops for minutes at a time, mid tunnel and the jerky, 50-feet-at-a-time
progress, sometimes in total darkness as the carriage lights flickered out, and
the surreal, lemming-like packing of ever more too-warm bodies onto the
carriage at every stop we finally crawled into, had me about as close to
genuine, not-kidding, screaming hysterics as I've been in a very long time
indeed.

Have I mentioned I don't always cope well with crowds?

At any rate, I wouldn't rate Brits as more sensitive to differneces in personal
space preference, I'd rate them as less prone to responding to such
differences. Since this would equally account for the behavior of the
described Brit diplomats, it's an initial hypothesis I'm fairly content with.

P Nielsen Hayden

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In article <199804161510...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:

>Funny, because one of the differences I haven't been able
>to entirely distill into a clear description is the way British
>sensitivities about personal space seem to be much *less*
>attunded than American ones, at least in crowds, especially
>in moving crowds, leading to my internal Rude Bastard claxons
>going off with unexpected regularity. When Hal and I were
>travelling together, it became utterly routine (though unexpected
>based on previous experience) to find some Brit shoving
>between us when we were walking together in a crowd.

Matches my experience exactly. Hogarthian England is never far below the
surface of New Britain, as far as I can tell.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh

Bernard Peek

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <199804161510...@ladder01.news.
aol.com>, Ulrika <ulr...@aol.com> writes

>When Hal and I were
>travelling together, it became utterly routine (though unexpected
>based on previous experience) to find some Brit shoving

>between us when we were walking together in a crowd. Even
>on my own, I kept finding Britons blithely happy to elbow and
>barge past, utterly unwilling to yeild way in situations where an American
>would, based on physical proximity alone.

Ahh, but you probably weren't keeping up with the traffic. I suspect
that in America you would have had a continous stream of people saying
"Excuse me, can I come past?"

Of course over here we don't speak to strangers.

--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk

Mary Kay Kare

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In article <199804161510...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:

<snip>

>
> What it seems to come down to, thinking about it, is that
> Americans can, generally, be compelled to move in certain
> ways, simply by stepping into their personal space, and Britons,
> by and large, can't. Brits may well not like you getting that close,
> but they're damned if they're going to acknowledge your presence
> by reacting to it, let alone budging, for all that.

<snip>

>
> At any rate, I wouldn't rate Brits as more sensitive to differneces in
personal
> space preference, I'd rate them as less prone to responding to such
> differences. Since this would equally account for the behavior of the
> described Brit diplomats, it's an initial hypothesis I'm fairly content with.

Do you suppose this phenomenon has anything to do with the fact that this
is a very large and spacious country whereas all the Brits are crowded
together on that little island. I particularly noticed when I was in
Ireland that indoor spaces were not as spacious as I was used to. So
maybe they've just got more experience at ignoring intrusions into their
personal space as they've got nowhere to go.

MK

--
Mary Kay Kare

On the other hand, you have different fingers

Morgan Gallagher

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In this post <kare-16049...@ppp-asok03--147.sirius.net>, Mary

Kay Kare <ka...@sirius.com> said:
>I particularly noticed when I was in
>Ireland that indoor spaces were not as spacious as I was used to. So
>maybe they've just got more experience at ignoring intrusions into their
>personal space as they've got nowhere to go.

That's not to do with crowding, or lack of it, but lack of resources and
the size of people. We didn't start 'shooting up' out of the fully
adult male being under five foot six and female under five foot four
'till quite recently.

We also have only recently developed the idea that homes are for living
in, as opposed to inhabiting to take care of eating and sleeping.
Houses and 'living' space is new enough here that our present house,
built in the late 1890s, had one posh room and two bedrooms, with a
kitchen and cleaning room combined - for the whole family. In the mid
1930s an en masse extension to the railway and biscuit factory estates
were added and another bedroom, directly off another, and a second
'living' space was added by moving the kitchen out into it's own room.

All around us, houses designed to hold three to four adults and up to
five children are deemed too small for two adults and two kids. As two
adults, with extrememly decadent ideas of 'living space', this house is
too dammed small! (2 bedrooms, one study, one living room, one dining
room (Stuffed to the gills with boxes and things that don't fit int he
toher rooms and not actually functiopnal as a 'dining' area!)

As a child, wacthing USA films and tv on our tv in the 60s, we were all
gob smacked by the 'wealth' and 'extravagence' of USA homes. I
genuinely thought you only showed us unrealistic super dream sequences
of extrememly wealthy people. LArge, airy, well lit bedrooms, with
seperate heating and spcae to play and spend time in through your
adolescent were the stuff of dreams in our homes. Even if you did have
a 'big' room - central heating wasn't in most homes! You ddin't go
'play' in bedrooms if they didn't have tv, heating and good lighting.
You stayed down stairs with the adults and were forced to watch what
they watched on the black and white tv.

'Living' you did when you were old enough to be allowed out!

Add that to the land prices... and in some areas of the country, you
really have to be quite rich to have a new house with lots of room,
never mind lots of rooms!

--
Morgan

"Nunc demum intellego," dixit Winnie ille Pu. "Stultus et
delusus fui," dixit "et ursus sine ullo cerebro sum."

David G. Bell

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98

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In article <3zcZtAA$wnN1...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>
Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk "Morgan Gallagher" writes:

> Add that to the land prices... and in some areas of the country, you
> really have to be quite rich to have a new house with lots of room,
> never mind lots of rooms!

The current prices for farm land bear no relation to the profits which
can be made from farming.

mike weber

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

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On Thu, 16 Apr 98 07:43:55 GMT, in
<892712...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk

("David G. Bell") ("David G. Bell") wrote:

>Another factor in this is the idea of personal space; of how close you
>get to somebody while you are talking with them.
>

>It is alleged that British diplomats are more aware of cultural
>differences in this, and one may see in Arabia any number of American
>diplomats slowly and continuously backing away from Arabs at Embassy
>parties, while the British merely maintain a stiff upper lip and endure
>the psychological discomfort.

Travis McGee's buddy Meyer disposed of bores without being
identifiably rude; he smiled and nodded and agreed and so on as he
slowly, slowly crept into their personal space and kept doing it as
they backed away. Eventually they fled without knowing why.

Meyer also quoted a definition of a bore -- "One who deprives you of
solitude without providing company."
--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
And pray that there's intelligence somewhere out in space --
'Cos there's bugger all down here on the Earth!

mike weber

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

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On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:30:50 GMT, in <6h5bgc$7...@news1.panix.com>,
p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:

>In article <199804161510...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:
>

>>Funny, because one of the differences I haven't been able
>>to entirely distill into a clear description is the way British
>>sensitivities about personal space seem to be much *less*
>>attunded than American ones, at least in crowds, especially
>>in moving crowds, leading to my internal Rude Bastard claxons

>>going off with unexpected regularity. When Hal and I were

>>travelling together, it became utterly routine (though unexpected
>>based on previous experience) to find some Brit shoving
>>between us when we were walking together in a crowd.
>

>Matches my experience exactly. Hogarthian England is never far below the
>surface of New Britain, as far as I can tell.
>

On the other hand, they seem to handle queueing up better than
Americans.

Maureen Kincaid Speller

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

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On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:44:45 GMT, emsh...@aol.com (mike weber)
wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:30:50 GMT, in <6h5bgc$7...@news1.panix.com>,
>p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
>>In article <199804161510...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:
>>
>>>Funny, because one of the differences I haven't been able
>>>to entirely distill into a clear description is the way British
>>>sensitivities about personal space seem to be much *less*
>>>attunded than American ones, at least in crowds, especially
>>>in moving crowds, leading to my internal Rude Bastard claxons
>>>going off with unexpected regularity. When Hal and I were
>>>travelling together, it became utterly routine (though unexpected
>>>based on previous experience) to find some Brit shoving
>>>between us when we were walking together in a crowd.
>>
>>Matches my experience exactly. Hogarthian England is never far below the
>>surface of New Britain, as far as I can tell.
>>
>On the other hand, they seem to handle queueing up better than
>Americans.

This is something Connie Willis commented on when we were waiting to
check her into her room at the hotel last week ... and how she had
inadvertently crashed queues on her early visits to this country
because she didn't understand how it worked (though I bet everyone
just glared at her and muttered but didn't explain; I am the idiot who
*does* point out that a person has crashed the queue and then
*everyone* glares at me instead).

P Nielsen Hayden

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

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In article <3536de21...@news.mindspring.com>, emsh...@aol.com wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:30:50 GMT, in <6h5bgc$7...@news1.panix.com>,
>p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>>
>>Matches my experience exactly. Hogarthian England is never far below the
>>surface of New Britain, as far as I can tell.
>>
>On the other hand, they seem to handle queueing up better than
>Americans.

Then again, Canadians are better at it than either. It's a little-known fact
that Canada's national sport is standing in line.

B. Vermo

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

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In article <892712...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,

db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
|
|It is alleged that British diplomats are more aware of cultural
|differences in this, and one may see in Arabia any number of American
|diplomats slowly and continuously backing away from Arabs at Embassy
|parties, while the British merely maintain a stiff upper lip and endure
|the psychological discomfort.
|

This may be an indication that British diplomats are usually professional
people who did not get the job because they helped the Quenn get
elected or something. Having gone to the same school as the Prime
Minister might help, I guess.

B. Vermo

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

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In article <199804161510...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:
|
|Funny, because one of the differences I haven't been able
|to entirely distill into a clear description is the way British
|sensitivities about personal space seem to be much *less*
|attunded than American ones, at least in crowds, especially
|in moving crowds, leading to my internal Rude Bastard claxons
|going off with unexpected regularity. When Hal and I were
|travelling together, it became utterly routine (though unexpected
|based on previous experience) to find some Brit shoving
|between us when we were walking together in a crowd.

You might find that, in many European cities, people who move
leisurely together in a crowded place and do not keep well to
the side are considered Rude Bastards. Especially if they maximize
the area blocked by walking so far apart that it is possible to
squeeze between them.

Other Rude Bastards, Slothful Kids and Stupid Strangers stop walking
when they enter an escalator, often in the middle, or worse, side
by side so as to block passage.

People living in crowded places seem to adopt certain patterns for
coping, and one of them is to keep out of the way and take up as
little space as possible. This has local twists, but the logic behind
can usually be found out.

The only transatlantic place I have seen real crowded pedestrian
traffic on a large scale is on Manhattan. In other North American
cities nobody seems to walk any distance at all - except for Montreal,
where they do it underground. People who do not walk will not
develop an urban pedestrian traffic culture, and retain the rural
rules where it is OK to walk side by side because you do not bother
anybody, and rude to move between those doing so because there
is no need to do so.

The French kids had probably never had anybody move to the side
for them before. If you had ignored them and just moved ahead,
they would have split - but they have a zero privacy zone. By yielding,
you demonstrated inferiority. By glaring, you surprised them by
showing that your yielding was just a trap. Score one to you.

Chris Croughton

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

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mike weber wrote:
>
> On the other hand, they seem to handle queueing up better than
> Americans.

The British are the only ones who queue automatically, although
the younger Brits are getting worse at it.

A story a co-worker told me today - he was in Belgium (well,
someone has to be!) and "saw a queue so [he] joined it"! It
happened that it was for the beer festival, but he didn't know
it at the time. How British, to join a queue just because
it's there...

(And of course in the Cockney phonetic alphabet there is "Q for
everything"...)

Chris C

Ken Walton

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

to

In article <009C4C12...@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, Alan Winston -
SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr <win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes

>You can find Brit characterizations of the standard-issue American as
>a braggart and blowhard in literature back to the early nineteenth
>century at least, so I think this stylistic distinction predates gym
>culture by a good deal.

It pops up nicely in THHGTTG:

Zaphod: You just saved everybody's life!
Arthur: It was nothing.
Zaphod: Oh, was it? Forget it then.
--
Ken Walton mailto: k...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
=================================================================
Find the Role-Players' Tool Kit, a free generic rules-lite RPG at
http://kenjo.demon.co.uk ========================================
"A fool and his monkey are easily parted."

Ken Walton

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

to

In article <353615...@amc.de>, Chris Croughton <crou...@amc.de>
writes

>In Britain as well, even if they know each other well. It used to
>be associated with being gay (back when homosexuality was a Really
>Bad Thing(tm) in society), but I suspect it was always more general
>than that, just something Not Done.

Well, it's not true in this neck of the woods (Lancashire), or at least,
not in pubs, where men will happily chat to total strangers about the
weather, the beer, the quality of the live music etc. But perhaps that's
just us rough northern folk.

My favourite recent accostation in a pub loo (as opposed to a public
loo) was a rather drunken swedish guy, who lectured me at great length
about the similarities between Swedish folk lyrics and the more
nonsensical choruses of English rugby songs, and tied it in with some
marriage between minor members of the British and Swedish royal
families. (I wish I'd made notes, but I didn't have my hands free at the
time.)

Ken Walton

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

to

In article <3535e756...@news.demon.co.uk>, Rob Hansen
<r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> writes

>In the same article, Hitchens mentioned a lovely malapropism he'd
>heard in an American gym when one young woman said of another that she
>was "too self-defecating". One to treasure.

Speaking of malapropisms, the one above reminds me of a possible one
which has been bugging me. I was reading Charles Maturin's _Melmoth the
Wanderer_ the other day (yes, I'm foolish, I know), and came across the
following sentence at the beginning of Chapter V:

"For some hours after this exclamation, Melmoth lay silent, his memory
returning, - his senses gradually defecated, - the intellectual lord
slowly returning to his abdicated throne."

Now leaving aside the purple prose and strange punctuation for a second,
was this use of "defecated" usual in 1820, was it Maturin's mistake, or
does my 1966 Four Square edition have a misprint?

James Nicoll

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

to

In article <6h7cjf$p...@news1.panix.com>,

P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <3536de21...@news.mindspring.com>, emsh...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:30:50 GMT, in <6h5bgc$7...@news1.panix.com>,
>>p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>>>
>>>Matches my experience exactly. Hogarthian England is never far below the
>>>surface of New Britain, as far as I can tell.
>>>

>>On the other hand, they seem to handle queueing up better than
>>Americans.
>

>Then again, Canadians are better at it than either. It's a little-known fact
>that Canada's national sport is standing in line.

What was that old saw? "Two Scotsmen start a church, two Irishmen
start a war and two Englishmen start a queue" or somesuch.

Must be the UELs' influence, although the worst argument I ever
saw about line jumping was between my father, who was a Pennsylvanian,
and some rude Australian who couldn't grasp the idea of a line.

James Nicoll
--
"You can't be too rich or too thin."
"Tell that to Karen Carpenter."
"What does she know? She's dead."

Pierre Jelenc

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

to

B. Vermo <b...@bigblue.no> writes:
>
> The only transatlantic place I have seen real crowded pedestrian
> traffic on a large scale is on Manhattan.

Above ground. However, once you enter the subway system, all sense of
traffic and coordination seems to disappear. Especially on escalators.
It totally mystifies me.

Pierre
--
Tired of TV reruns? Help is on the way!
New York City | Home Office
Beer Guide | Records
http://www.nycbeer.org/ | http://www.web-ho.com/

Gary Farber

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98

to

In <ZhzN1gRD...@bigblue.no> B. Vermo <b...@bigblue.no> wrote:
[. . .]

: You might find that, in many European cities, people who move

: leisurely together in a crowded place and do not keep well to
: the side are considered Rude Bastards. Especially if they maximize

: the area blocked by walking so far apart that it is possible to
: squeeze between them.

"Impossible," I think you mean: at least, this is the way of New York
City.

: Other Rude Bastards, Slothful Kids and Stupid Strangers stop walking

: when they enter an escalator, often in the middle, or worse, side
: by side so as to block passage.

Or stand in front of subway car entrances, or slow down on subway stairs,
or stop in front of subway stairs, or enter a bus and just stop, or. . . .

: People living in crowded places seem to adopt certain patterns for

: coping, and one of them is to keep out of the way and take up as
: little space as possible. This has local twists, but the logic behind
: can usually be found out.

NYC and Europe both.

: The only transatlantic place I have seen real crowded pedestrian

: traffic on a large scale is on Manhattan.

unread,

Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98

to

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:45:50 +0100, in
<NEekXFAe...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>, Ken Walton
<K...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> (Ken Walton) wrote:

>Now leaving aside the purple prose and strange punctuation for a second,
>was this use of "defecated" usual in 1820, was it Maturin's mistake, or
>does my 1966 Four Square edition have a misprint?
>

The second is funnier, but i'd prolly plump for the third...

Jim Trash

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Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98

to

In article <35384f18...@news.mindspring.com>, mike weber
<emsh...@aol.com> writes
>e It's a little-known fact

>>that Canada's national sport is standing in line.
>
>However, they only took the Silver at the Olympics -- a team composed
>of Russian housewives with string bags scored a perfect "10" for the
>Gold...

I wonder here if your memory of the event might not be as complete as
you had imagined.
I seem to recall that the Russians were actually disqualified when it
was discovered they were using inertia drugs and lead boots.
The Canadians then quietly and without fuss shuffled back into first
place.
The British team joined the wrong queue and are now locked inside one of
the new superloos in Clapham waiting for the flush cycle to begin.

http://www.scream.demon.co.uk Jim Trash

B. Vermo

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Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98

to

In article <3539cd6d...@news.erols.com>,

mjla...@erols.com (Marilee J. Layman) wrote:
|
|I do this at the pharmacy sometimes. The Kaiser clinic here in
|Manassas wasn't expected to have this many patients so soon, so
|although they're okay on doctor space, the pharmacy area is too small
|and there isn't any practical way to expand it. There's only seven
|seats and the distance from the pickup window to the hallway is only
|about three people-standing-in-line long.

Odd. I hve never seen a pharmacy where yoy did not have to draw a
number and wait to be called.

Gary Farber

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Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98

to

In <mQLO1gRD...@bigblue.no> B. Vermo <b...@bigblue.no> wrote:
: In article <3539cd6d...@news.erols.com>,

I've never seen a pharamacy where you had to draw a number, though I'm
quite sure they exist in the US; what I've seen is a number of pharmacies
where you sometimes have to come back anywhere from fifteen minutes to a
couple of hours later to pick up the medication you've dropped off the
prescription for. A small difference, perhaps, but a real one.

Kate Schaefer

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98

to

In a previous article, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) says:

>In article <3539cd6d...@news.erols.com>,
>mjla...@erols.com (Marilee J. Layman) wrote:
>|
>|I do this at the pharmacy sometimes. The Kaiser clinic here in
>|Manassas wasn't expected to have this many patients so soon, so
>|although they're okay on doctor space, the pharmacy area is too small
>|and there isn't any practical way to expand it. There's only seven
>|seats and the distance from the pickup window to the hallway is only
>|about three people-standing-in-line long.
>
>Odd. I hve never seen a pharmacy where yoy did not have to draw a
>number and wait to be called.

Those cultural differences: I've only seen one pharmacy like that, though
I've seen many, many ice-cream parlors of that ilk.

Perhaps in the US ice-cream draws a bigger crowd than prescription drugs.

--
Kate Schaefer
ka...@scn.org

James Nicoll

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98

to

In article <6hba69$b...@panix2.panix.com>,

Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <mQLO1gRD...@bigblue.no> B. Vermo <b...@bigblue.no> wrote:

>: In article <3539cd6d...@news.erols.com>,

>: mjla...@erols.com (Marilee J. Layman) wrote:
>: |
>: |I do this at the pharmacy sometimes. The Kaiser clinic here in
>: |Manassas wasn't expected to have this many patients so soon, so
>: |although they're okay on doctor space, the pharmacy area is too small
>: |and there isn't any practical way to expand it. There's only seven
>: |seats and the distance from the pickup window to the hallway is only
>: |about three people-standing-in-line long.
>
>: Odd. I hve never seen a pharmacy where yoy did not have to draw a
>: number and wait to be called.
>

>I've never seen a pharamacy where you had to draw a number, though I'm
>quite sure they exist in the US; what I've seen is a number of pharmacies
>where you sometimes have to come back anywhere from fifteen minutes to a
>couple of hours later to pick up the medication you've dropped off the
>prescription for. A small difference, perhaps, but a real one.

Around here they all deliver. The only time I drop by is to
give them the original prescription and if my doctor and the pharmacy
ever discover the fax or email, I won't have to do that either.

Gary Farber

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98

to

In <89300317...@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
[. . .]
: Around here they all deliver. The only time I drop by is to

: give them the original prescription and if my doctor and the pharmacy
: ever discover the fax or email, I won't have to do that either.

Actually, most pharmacies I'm familiar with deliver as well; I just didn't
think to mention that, as I tend to almost never bother with that service
(I can use the exercise of walking a whole couple of blocks).

Ulrika

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98

to

In article <mQLO1gRD...@bigblue.no>, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) writes:

>Odd. I hve never seen a pharmacy where yoy did not have to draw a
>number and wait to be called.

It's a Scandinavian thing, I suspect. In the US, you don't normally
take a number to be served in a bank, either, and not usually
at the Post Office, and it's variable in service stores like
bakeries and delis; usually, you just queue. Also, U.S. pharmacies
are usually part of larger stores that deal in sundries or groceries,
and, not uncommonly, alcohol. A stand-alone hospital pharmacy
is the exception, rather than the rule.

Ulrika O'Brien, Philosopher Without Portfolio

***ulr...@aol.com***

Gary Farber

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98

to

In <199804200420...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Ulrika <ulr...@aol.com> wrote:

: In article <mQLO1gRD...@bigblue.no>, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) writes:

: >Odd. I hve never seen a pharmacy where yoy did not have to draw a
: >number and wait to be called.

: It's a Scandinavian thing, I suspect. In the US, you don't normally
: take a number to be served in a bank, either, and not usually
: at the Post Office, and it's variable in service stores like
: bakeries and delis; usually, you just queue.

I've seen lots of bakeries and delis with "take a number"; it's usually
dependent on how busy they are as a rule.

: Also, U.S. pharmacies

: are usually part of larger stores that deal in sundries or groceries,
: and, not uncommonly, alcohol.

The alcohol part is entirely a matter of state law, and I wouldn't
generalize far from California's practices on that; most states I'm
familiar with, this would be illegal.

: A stand-alone hospital pharmacy

: is the exception, rather than the rule.

True; most hospitals I'm familiar with don't maintain commercial retail
pharmacies for the patients; it would be redundunt, for one thing, there
being a retail pharmacy on practically every block, it sometimes seems, in
urban America (it may be different in rural America, which I have
comparatively little experience in); for another, it would probably be
competition resented by the commercial retailers.

David G. Bell

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98

to

In article <6hej5s$3...@panix2.panix.com> gfa...@panix.com "Gary Farber" writes:

> True; most hospitals I'm familiar with don't maintain commercial retail
> pharmacies for the patients; it would be redundunt, for one thing, there
> being a retail pharmacy on practically every block, it sometimes seems, in
> urban America (it may be different in rural America, which I have
> comparatively little experience in); for another, it would probably be
> competition resented by the commercial retailers.

Here in the UK, with out health service, prescription drugs are
subsidised. You pay a fixed fee (with a potential to be more than the
drug costs) with exemptions for certain classes of patient.

And, yes, there are rules which can prevent hospitals and doctors from
competing with commercial pharmacies. It's even possible for a new
commercial pharmacy to force the closure (indirectly at least, by
restricting the customer base) of a pharmacy run by a doctors' practice.

--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

Bernard Peek

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98

to

In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <893058...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
"David G. Bell" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <6hej5s$3...@panix2.panix.com> gfa...@panix.com "Gary Farber" writes:
>
>> True; most hospitals I'm familiar with don't maintain commercial retail
>> pharmacies for the patients; it would be redundunt, for one thing, there
>> being a retail pharmacy on practically every block, it sometimes seems, in
>> urban America (it may be different in rural America, which I have
>> comparatively little experience in); for another, it would probably be
>> competition resented by the commercial retailers.
>
>Here in the UK, with out health service, prescription drugs are
>subsidised. You pay a fixed fee (with a potential to be more than the
>drug costs) with exemptions for certain classes of patient.

If the drug is available over-the-counter then most pharmacists will
offer to strike it off of the prescription. They make very little money
from NHS scrips and would make more money from selling you asprin than
fulfilling the scrip.

The last time I checked, about twenty years ago, the average cost of
prescribed drugs was around GBP 9. I once held a phial of human growth
hormone with a resale value of just over two million dollars, at 1978
prices.

>
>And, yes, there are rules which can prevent hospitals and doctors from
>competing with commercial pharmacies. It's even possible for a new
>commercial pharmacy to force the closure (indirectly at least, by
>restricting the customer base) of a pharmacy run by a doctors' practice.

Hospital pharmacies may offer the usual dispensing services, or they may
not. It's more usual for hospital pharmacies to supply only drugs and
other material which can't be provided by a high-street pharmacy. When I
worked in a pharmacy, many years ago, services were strictly regulated
by the National Pharmaceutical Union. They sent anonymous inspectors to
pharmacies to make sure that everyone obeyed the rules.

--
Bernard Peek
b...@intersec.demon.co.uk

Robert Sneddon

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98

to

In article <893058...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk "David G. Bell" writes:

> Here in the UK, with our health service, prescription drugs are

> subsidised. You pay a fixed fee (with a potential to be more than the
> drug costs) with exemptions for certain classes of patient.

[Spelling mistake fixed]

The elderly, children under 16, pregnant women and people on
State benefits usually. For the chronically sick, you can get a
one-year payment certificate for about 30 pounds. Sometimes the
doc will simply give you some of the multitudinous free samples
handed out by the drug companies.

I accompanied my friend Sammy to the pharmacy one time when I was
over in Atlanta during the winter. She coughed up (so to speak) about
200 bucks at the window[1]. This was apparently one month's supply,
and not untypical.

Ouch.

[1] Yep - a drive-in pharmacy. Much the same as a MacD's, but you don't
shout your order into Ronald McDonald's navel. Only in America...

--
To reply via email, remove the string "hormel" from my address.
Web pages at http://members.xoom.com/nojay/ - con reports and links
Robert (nojay) Sneddon

Marilee J. Layman

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98

to

In <893058...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk

("David G. Bell") wrote:

>Here in the UK, with out health service, prescription drugs are

>subsidised. You pay a fixed fee (with a potential to be more than the
>drug costs) with exemptions for certain classes of patient.

I've belonged to Kaiser and it's predecessor HMO for 21 years now and
have gradually been getting better contracts. The taxes I just did
are the first instance in ten years where I haven't had enough medical
deductions to declare. Most of that time I've had to pay full price
for my meds (except cyclosporine which, along with cancer meds, is
free). But three years ago, Kaiser opened up a Medicare HMO where I
only paid $10 per Rx/refill and if the actual cost was less, I paid
actual cost. This year, they have a different type of Medicare HMO
where I don't pay any premiums and the doctor & prescription co-pays
are only $5, so I'm saving a lot of money. But I was surprised to
find out that the $5 applies whether the med is cheaper or not (not
that I often have cheaper meds -- I found this out when I had to have
a short course of prednisone). It's not a big deal, after all, if I
got coordinated, I could have them delivered by mail for $3 each.

B. Vermo

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98

to

In article <199804200420...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

ulr...@aol.com (Ulrika) wrote:
|In article <mQLO1gRD...@bigblue.no>, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) writes:
|
|>Odd. I hve never seen a pharmacy where yoy did not have to draw a
|>number and wait to be called.
|
|It's a Scandinavian thing, I suspect. In the US, you don't normally
|take a number to be served in a bank, either, and not usually
|at the Post Office, and it's variable in service stores like
|bakeries and delis; usually, you just queue.

Maybe we are just collectively fed up with queueing. There was a
wartime song about the never-do-well who suddenly was popular
and in great demand when a warm body to stand in a queue for rationed
goods suddenly became valuable. Besides, we never developed the
superior ropes and "wait here" queues of U.S. banks. That may be
one reason for the instant success when a Swedish company invented
the electronic queing system (with estimated waiting time printed on
the number tab) everybody is using nowadays.

By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with
a pharmacy. I guess they work, but I feel more comfortable when
I know the people in white behind the counter have a long university
education - learning to decipher doctorese scribbling and catch
mistakes. On the downside, our pharmacies are few and far between,
and non-prescription drugs are expensive.

Kate Schaefer

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

In a previous article, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) says:

[snippage]

>By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with
>a pharmacy. I guess they work, but I feel more comfortable when
>I know the people in white behind the counter have a long university
>education - learning to decipher doctorese scribbling and catch
>mistakes. On the downside, our pharmacies are few and far between,
>and non-prescription drugs are expensive.

What a number of misconceptions you have about the United States; at
least most of them are relatively harmless. No, in the US a drugstore is
not the same thing as a pharmacy. A drugstore is a store which sells
sundry items including over-the-counter drugs, vitamins, bandages,
shampoo, and (seasonally) squirt guns. A pharmacy may be located in said
drugstore, or it may be located in a hospital, a medical clinic, or
(rarely, because it's a money-losing proposition) as a stand-alone
business. A pharmacy is staffed (surprise!) by pharmacists, who have
completed long university educations centered on drug effects and
interactions and who have completed internships under the supervision of
experienced pharmacists.
--
Kate Schaefer
ka...@scn.org

Doug Wickstrom

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Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:09:42 +0200, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) modulated
the bit stream to say:

>In article <3539cd6d...@news.erols.com>,
>mjla...@erols.com (Marilee J. Layman) wrote:
>|
>|I do this at the pharmacy sometimes. The Kaiser clinic here in
>|Manassas wasn't expected to have this many patients so soon, so
>|although they're okay on doctor space, the pharmacy area is too small
>|and there isn't any practical way to expand it. There's only seven
>|seats and the distance from the pickup window to the hallway is only
>|about three people-standing-in-line long.
>

>Odd. I hve never seen a pharmacy where yoy did not have to draw a
>number and wait to be called.

Ah, but you're _Norwegian_, you see.

At mine I drop my prescription in the "to be filled" box, go have a
cup of coffee, and pick it up at the counter when I'm finished. No
waiting in any sort of line. Were I in a hurry, I suppose I could
have it filled while I stand at the counter. It might take all of
three minutes. Why yes, I have private health insurance with complete
choice of provider. Why do you ask?

Use the Veterans hospital pharmacy I'm entitled to? Not a chance.
It's a 20-mile drive and a 2-hour wait. There's your socialized
medicine for you.

--
Doug Wickstrom
E-mail replies go to a seldom checked mailbox. To ensure a
timely response, remove "X" and replace "aol.com" with
worldnet.att.net. AOLers reply to nimshubur. Mail from "Free"
e-mail domains goes straight to the bit bucket.

Doug Wickstrom

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Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:08:00 +0200, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) modulated

the bit stream to say:

>By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with

>a pharmacy. I guess they work, but I feel more comfortable when
>I know the people in white behind the counter have a long university
>education - learning to decipher doctorese scribbling and catch
>mistakes. On the downside, our pharmacies are few and far between,
>and non-prescription drugs are expensive.

You can be so amusing sometimes without meaning to.

What makes you think US pharmacists _don't_ have a long university
education?

Robert Sneddon

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

In article <6hgred$6...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
xnims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

On Tue, 21 Apr 98 09:00:59 GMT, no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert
Sneddon) modulated the bit stream to say:

>In article <6hgred$6...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
> xnims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
>

>> At mine I drop my prescription in the "to be filled" box, go have a
>> cup of coffee, and pick it up at the counter when I'm finished. No
>> waiting in any sort of line. Were I in a hurry, I suppose I could
>> have it filled while I stand at the counter. It might take all of
>> three minutes. Why yes, I have private health insurance with complete
>> choice of provider. Why do you ask?
>
> Funny, I did the same (when I was picking up prescriptions for my Dad -
>I haven't been to a doctor personally for about 15 years or so). Dad
>being 79, I paid nothing for these prescriptions, no matter what was
>in them. The white coat behind the counter would quickly decipher the
>chicken scrawls on the scrip, and say "Ready in 15 minutes. OK?" I'd
>wander off, do some shopping, come back, pick up the stuff and carry on.
>Wait in line? Why?

It's apparently de rigeur in Norway.

Doug Wickstrom

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Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

On Tue, 21 Apr 98 09:02:52 GMT, no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert

Sneddon) modulated the bit stream to say:

>In article <6hgsuu$f...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>

> xnims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
>
>> What makes you think US pharmacists _don't_ have a long university
>> education?
>
> Unfortunately, it's a long *American* university education, with
>courses like "Math for Plants" and "Bonehead English".

You've been reading too much mass-media folklore. This is not a
liberal education, but a medical/scientific one. They pre-screen for
non-vegetable types with actual brains.

As for the rest, remedial Math and English are partially the result of
a large number of "students" entering university who really ought not
to. I wonder what the comparative matriculation rates are for, say,
the US and the UK. I suspect that the US rate is higher, and I very
much doubt that the average intelligence level in the US is higher
than in the UK.

And let us not forget that even though Johhny can neither read nor
cipher, he's a wizard with a Mac and a mouse, 'cause every classroom's
Got To Have Technology. Fat lot of good it'll do him if he can't tell
if the store clerk's cheated him or not.

What's the immigration rate in the UK from non-English speaking
countries?

Mike Scott

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

On Mon, 20 Apr 98 17:25:06 GMT, no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert Sneddon)
wrote:

> The elderly, children under 16, pregnant women and people on
>State benefits usually. For the chronically sick, you can get a
>one-year payment certificate for about 30 pounds. Sometimes the
>doc will simply give you some of the multitudinous free samples
>handed out by the drug companies.

It's probably worth noting that the exemptions in fact cover around 80%
of all prescriptions issued. Not that anything like 80% of the
*population* is covered, but those who are tend to need more
prescriptions.

--
Mike Scott
mi...@moose.demon.co.uk
http://www.moose.demon.co.uk

Jo Walton

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

In article <6hippu$k...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
xnims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:

> On Tue, 21 Apr 98 16:49:48 GMT, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton)

> modulated the bit stream to say:
>

> >In article <6hgred$6...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
> > xnims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
> >

> >> Use the Veterans hospital pharmacy I'm entitled to? Not a chance.
> >> It's a 20-mile drive and a 2-hour wait. There's your socialized
> >> medicine for you.
> >
> >Indeed.
> >
> >Working perfectly.
> >
> >If you needed that - if you were sick and at the end of your savings
> >by some awful chance, you'd drive (or go on the bus) that 20 miles
> >and wait - but you don't need to, you can cheerfully afford the
> >convenience so you don't burden it for the poor people who do by
> >adding to their wait.
>
> I assure you that being poor won't get you seen at that hospital. You
> must be either a disabled veteran or retired military. Either way,
> you wait. I had enough of that while serving.

I meant the _you_ personally and specifically, the same way I assume
you meant the _I_ in "I'm entitled to". If you, personally, as a vet,
needed that hospital, it would be there, as it is you're not abusing
it because you don't need it. Not socialised medicine, more like
the sort of charitable medicine we used to have in Dickens' times,
but still a safety net you, personally, will hopefully always have,
though you hopefully won't need it.

> And the out-of-pocket expense is the same.

Then I entirely misunderstood what you meant by "entitled", I thought
you meant you were entitled to be seen free there but preferred to
pay than drive 20 miles and wait two hours, not that you were entitled
to attend it and there were only disadvantages - why on earth would
anyone go there in those circumstances?

Cally Soukup

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

B. Vermo <b...@bigblue.no> wrote:

> By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with
> a pharmacy. I guess they work, but I feel more comfortable when
> I know the people in white behind the counter have a long university
> education - learning to decipher doctorese scribbling and catch
> mistakes. On the downside, our pharmacies are few and far between,
> and non-prescription drugs are expensive.

I have a friend who is a pharmacist. She had a very long university
education, and then had to pass several very stringent tests to be a
registered pharmacist. She works at a drugstore. Just because
people work in the same place where you can buy, say, shoelaces and
charcoal for your grill doesn't mean they're not registered
pharmacists. We just don't usually specialise our stores as much as
in Europe. Well, except for places like the refrigerator magnet
store.

--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup ma...@mcs.com

Rich Horton

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:49:40 GMT, xnims...@aol.com (Doug Wickstrom)
wrote:

>Robert Sneddon wrote:
>>Wait in line? Why?
>
>It's apparently de rigeur in Norway.

They're training for the Olympics.

Hey, the English and Russians may be 1-2, but the Norwegians are #3
with a bullet.
--
Rich Horton
Homepage: www.sff.net/people/richard.horton (new reviews of: _H.M.S. Surprise,
by Patrick O'Brian; and _The Stone Canal_, by Ken MacLeod.)

Pierre Jelenc

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

>
> By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with
> a pharmacy. I guess they work, but I feel more comfortable when
> I know the people in white behind the counter have a long university
> education - learning to decipher doctorese scribbling and catch
> mistakes. On the downside, our pharmacies are few and far between,
> and non-prescription drugs are expensive.

The pharmacy is typically at the back of the drugstore, with a separate
counter and the shelves of prescription drugs. The pharmacist is not a
drugstore clerk.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc | The Spring Gig: Friday May 8th
Home Office Records | - Lorijo Manley - Trina Hamlin -
http://www.web-ho.com/ | - Polygraph Lounge - Homer Erotic -
|at CB's Gallery, 313 Bowery, New York City

Gary Farber

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

In <353ce38f...@news.demon.co.uk> Mike Scott <mi...@moose.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: On Mon, 20 Apr 98 17:25:06 GMT, no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert Sneddon)
: wrote:

: > The elderly, children under 16, pregnant women and people on
: >State benefits usually. For the chronically sick, you can get a
: >one-year payment certificate for about 30 pounds.

I don't seem to have yet seen Robert's post, but in the US, the elderly,
children under 16, people on state benefits, the poor in general, and the
chronic sick, all get free health care from the government via Medicaid
and Medicare; I know this contravenes legend, but it's true. It's the
people working just over the poverty line who have the problem paying for
medical care, not the the above-named categories.

: > Sometimes the

: >doc will simply give you some of the multitudinous free samples
: >handed out by the drug companies.

Same here; that's currently how one of my medications is being "paid" for.

[. . . .]

B. Vermo

unread,

Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98

to

In article <893093...@ibfs.demon.co.uk>,

no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert Sneddon) wrote:
|
| The elderly, children under 16, pregnant women and people on
|State benefits usually. For the chronically sick, you can get a
|one-year payment certificate for about 30 pounds.

...
Does not that system tend to alienate the normal-income over-16
people? At least, that is the reasoning behind our system which
applies equally to all. But our ceiling on annual medical expenses
(sum of prescription drugs and doctors bills) is more like 80 pounds.
If you want something more expensive than the cheapest generic drug
which is approved for your condition or a doctor who is not under
contract with your communal health service, you have to pay the
difference, though.

30 pounds for a whole year sounds very cheap. What is the minimum
annual pension?

c From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.apps
Subject: Re: X-windows emulator for OS/2?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:16:20 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <U4IP1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <352E43...@ibm.net> <civnfeiic...@news.total.net>
<353677...@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Lines: 11

In article <353677...@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,
Christian Hennecke <christian...@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
|Uh-oh!
|
|Exceed is outdated X. You can run X-windows up-to-date with XFree86

If it is still a fullscreen application, it is useless for many if not most
OS/2 users. What I would want, is a program which displays X
the same way seamless WinOS2 works, and which integrates with the
WPS to allow drag/drop and other enhancements.

¹ From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Providing patches (for Y2K etc).
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:06:28 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <UnJP1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <3578bdec....@nntpserver.swip.net>
<353614...@bellsouth.net> <35536c94....@nyheter.chalmers.se>
<mbvcclp5eYkY-p...@mfr01-pm3-03.teleport.com>
<35377d9d...@nyheter.chalmers.se> <c1.2b5.2L5rLD$0...@geocities.com>
<c1.2b5.2L5sLK$0...@geocities.com> <354c4b60...@nyheter.chalmers.se>
<c1.2b5.2L6LtC$0...@geocities.com> <355323a0....@nyheter.chalmers.se>
<01bd6b35$d07af640$ab41...@MaintPri.osf.noaa.gov>
<35739604....@nyheter.chalmers.se>
Lines: 13

In article <35739604....@nyheter.chalmers.se>,
Martin Nisshagen <Add...@MySig.com> wrote:
|
|Well, to me (and I can only speak for me) they seem to understand that it's
|also important to support also older operating systems with bug fixes.
|
As an explanation to some who have accused Martin of shady things
involving Microsoft, I can add one piece of important information.
As I live in the neighbouring country, I can confirm that Microsoft
Sweden have a very good reputation. It is my personal opinion that
if the rest of Microsoft had been up to the same standard, many
people around the world would have had much fewer problems.

? From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Who designed a/o developed the OS/2 1.x kernel?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:22:29 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <V2JP1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <6fqag3$daa$3...@excalibur.flash.net> <6fr5i1$9q...@svlss.lmms.lmco.com>
<6fr71j$pv0$1...@excalibur.flash.net> <U4fdu6vMpBGF-pn2-qZg9YlZECOnF@localhost>
<3540fdab...@nyheter.chalmers.se>
<MPG.f9646fc7...@news.erols.com>
<352d8ad5....@nyheter.chalmers.se> <nV5M1gRD...@bigblue.no>
<353cee5f...@nyheter.chalmers.se> <nLCN1oHp...@skypoint.com>
<3534B6...@HATESPAM.ifbt.ntnu.no> <HffN1gRD...@bigblue.no>
<35759beb....@nyheter.chalmers.se>
Lines: 25

In article <35759beb....@nyheter.chalmers.se>,
Martin Nisshagen <Add...@MySig.com> wrote:
|
|Well, this is not quite the story as I have heard it.

With such big undertakings with so many people involved, it is only
reasonable to expect that diffent pieces of the whole truth as seen
from different angles drifft around the grapevine - usually together
with some not quite so truthful stories.

Which is why I said "something happened behind the scenes".

|
|While it's certainly is true that IBM brought in many competent programmers
|to the OS/2 project, it was Microsoft with Gordon Letwin in charge of the
|OS/2 kernel development who besides deciding upon the general design and
|architecture of the kernel, also wrote himself many of it's important core
|parts.
|

Yes, and given his rather solid reputation I am a bit surprised that
there was so much to clean up in version 1.1 - perhaps the explanation
is that Microsoft were hiring new programmers faster than they could
assimilate them at that time.

à From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: A Different Filk Question
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:03:40 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <c4yP1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <6hcao8$2...@panix2.panix.com>
<kare-19049...@ppp-asok05--052.sirius.net>
<kP2O1gRD...@bigblue.no> <6hgs0t$a...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
<dsheldonE...@netcom.com>
Lines: 49

In article <dsheldonE...@netcom.com>,
dshe...@netcom.com (Ed Dravecky III) wrote:
|
|The *capability* for fan-produced CDs is easy. The time and
|effort of making one worth listening to is the main stumbling
|block. (The time and effort of making a largish quantity of
|copies is the other stumbling block.)

Quite right. Like making a 'zine worth reading or a con worth attending.

When people too borish to bother replying to start ranting about all
the expensive stuff you "must have" to make a recording, I feel
tempted to believe they are either completely incompetent or hopeless
gadget-freaks. Then, on pondering, I conclude they are just professionals
or at least semi-pros trying to pass as amateurs.

Or is anybody out there claiming you have to buy a phototypesetter
for at least 125000 dollars to publish a 'zine? It would look nicer than
what I get from my HP laser printer...

While I value my time - at around 100 USD per hour - I have never
dreamt of getting a single cent back for the thousands of hours I
have spent making con programme books, gophering, attending panels,
publishing 'zines and APA contributions or helping a fellow fan with
a computer, audio or video problem. Nor do I know any other fan
who would - we even usually have to pay for attending the con.
We obviously have to pay for the equipment we use if we cannot borrow
it from somebody.

I have nothing against people who value their time enough to want
money for it. Bascally, we all do. What I cannot stand, is somebody
who wants the money and yet is unwilling to be called profesional.

My time as an audio amateur was in the late sixties. At that time,
good recording equipment was an order of magnitude more expensive
than today. I still recorded singers and musicians with the same kind
of equipment budget I have today for a typical fannish publication.
The end result was rather better than the records you could buy
at the time. In fact, there has not been any improvements in obtainable
sound quality since. Subsequent development has caused equipment to
decline in price or increase in complexity so you can work faster
in a professional setting or compensate for lacking skill in a hobbyist.

But the budget has nothing to do with it. This is an attitude question.
An "amateur" who charges enough money to go break-even is a hypocrite
in my book. Anybody who is getting any compensation for time spent,
is at least a semi-pro. Honest people admit that up-front. I respect them.
If they are good, I pay for their stuff.

From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: Face on Mars debunked, JPG image included embedded in HTML
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:10:06 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <u2zP1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <352AF5...@learnlink.emory.edu>
<romm-14049...@13-235.dynamic.visi.com>
<cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>
<romm-16049...@13-152.dynamic.visi.com> <aahzErI...@netcom.com>
<892754...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> <6h62bm$f71$1...@haus.efn.org>
<35374D...@amc.de> <353C067F...@efn.org>
Lines: 14

In article <353C067F...@efn.org>,
Loren MacGregor <lmac...@efn.org> wrote:
|
|One of our clients showed us his ruggedized laptop as an example
|of what he wanted in a unit; not deliberately, someone had driven
|a truck over it. It still worked.
|
Back in the days when Compaq were serious about making the most
reliable portable computers you could buy, the standard demo was to
start a disk-intensive program, hurl the computer to the floor with
all your might, pick it up and show that the program was still running
withour errors. They were still not up to ruggedized specs, but they
were close.

¡ From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: Face on Mars debunked, JPG image included embedded in HTML
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:18:49 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <5+zP1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <352AF5...@learnlink.emory.edu>
<romm-14049...@13-235.dynamic.visi.com>
<cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>
<romm-16049...@13-152.dynamic.visi.com> <aahzErI...@netcom.com>
<893148...@ibfs.demon.co.uk> <romm-21049...@15-173.dynamic.visi.com>
Lines: 17

In article <romm-21049...@15-173.dynamic.visi.com>,
ro...@visi.com (David E Romm) wrote:
|
|I don't think Apple makes one, but some of the clones advertised 4-CPU
|systems. Both the 601 and 604 CPU are MESI, though the 750 is not.
|
IBM makes 512-CPU PowerPc systems, but they will not run any Apple OS.
As I recall, Apple killed any possibilities to use their OS on computers
made by anybody else last fall. But the crux is, of course, whether
any current Apple operating system is capable of utilizing more than
one CPU - SMP needs OS support to be workable.

In my opinion, Apple committed suicide on the day they announced
that they were abandoning the move towards an open system.
Before that, I had some hope they might at long last become a real
choice for non-niche users.

" From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: Flaws of US Currency
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:49:38 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <yb0P1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <ib8X.81$5G.2...@ptah.visi.com> <sggPNe...@LunaCity.com>
<k+sDpZAJ...@cartref.demon.co.uk> <3534B3...@amc.de>
<lryN1gRD...@bigblue.no> <35378E...@amc.de>
<DvKO1gRD...@bigblue.no> <353CA0...@amc.de>
Lines: 29

In article <353CA0...@amc.de>, Chris Croughton <crou...@amc.de> wrote:
|
|In some German banks they display DM instead of DEM as well.

Yes, but that would be the equivalent of UK or US banks using £ or $.
DM is the money-sign in Germany, while DEM is the abbreviation
used when you talk about multiple currencies. Likewise, Kr is the money
sign in Norway (always written with ordinary letters) while NOK is the
currency abbreviation.
|
|
|How about Old Norse, which is probably a more relevant lanuage
|to you than Latin?

At my time, we had a short course - only about one hour per week
for one term. There is much less written in Old Norse than in Latin,
and it is less useful abroad. What there is, can of course be very
satisfying to read. "Svá hneig hann apÞr ok var hann svá dauðr"
and similar matter of fact phrases without any frills work much
better in the original than any translation.

My smattering of Old Norse makes it possible to read Icelandic or
Faroeic with some guesswork, but not speak it in a way anybody
is very likely to understand much of. Nowadays, like everybody else,
we have suffered from educational reforms. Those of us with graying
temples are grumbling about how the kids no longer learn anything
worthwhile in school anymore...

ù From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films,rec.arts.sf.fandom,rec.arts.sf.movies,rec.arts.sf.tv
Subject: Re: U.S.A. and charges of chauvinism; was Re: THE FIFTH ELEMENT
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:41:51 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <vM1P1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <353673a4...@news.wenet.net> <6h5 <3537B1...@geocities.com>
<6hgvql$b...@news.csus.edu> <6higtp$u1k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<ellis69NO-HORMEL-ya02...@news.idt.net>
<353d731b...@news.mindspring.com>
Lines: 27

In article <353d731b...@news.mindspring.com>,
emsh...@aol.com (mike weber) wrote:
|>
|Kewl. Where's the "well-regulated militia"?

Unless I'm totally misinformed, you have something called
the "National Guard". It appears to fit all common definitions of
a well-regulated militia:

- Composed of civilians part-time trained in defensive warfare.
- Wearing distinctive clothing, badges or armbands distinguishing them
from ordinary civilians.
- Must be led by responsible officers with recognizable badges.
- Must follow the orders of the legal government.

Failure to comply with the first clause makes the unit military
rather than a militia. It is then counted in disarmament negotiations.

Failure to comply with the second or third clauses makes the unit
"franc-tireur" - not protected by Geneva conventions.
Can be treated as spies, saboteurs, or general bandits.

Failure to comply with the fourth clause makes the units rebels,
fourth-columnists or revolutionaries. Can be disarmed or fought by
regular army disregarding ordinary civil liberties, without causing
international incidents or breaking treaties.

From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.fandom,rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: Re: Ridiculous Movie Geography
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:26:26 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <i21P1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <6gsdlp$5...@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu>
<3531d902...@news.mindspring.com> <892469...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>
<3532d2bf...@news.mindspring.com> <6h0g7a$ajb$1...@nntp-3.io.com>
<353466a7...@news.mindspring.com> <6h2mv2$o...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>
<3535B1...@SPAMMITY-SPAMmarriott.com> <353877ea...@news.wenet.net>
<6h5vv3$d...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <3536dacb...@news.mindspring.com>
<FAUNT.98A...@netcom12.netcom.com>
<35384c76...@news.mindspring.com>
Lines: 25

In article <35384c76...@news.mindspring.com>,
emsh...@aol.com (mike weber) wrote:
|
|That's something that's easy to miss -- there -are- no brakes on the
|cut after it clears the yard -- they burn off when the deadman switch
|fails to cut the engines and they continue to run in notch 7 or so
|with the brakes in "lap" -- remember the hot chunk of something
|someone picks up out of the snow in the yard? That's a chunk of
|burnt-out/disintegrating brake shoe...
|
Gee - that's one hell of an engine!

The brakes would average some 1500 - 2000 Hp per wheel.
Even if they just touch at first, they will expand with heat and increase
the bakeing force. At least unlike this is some special anti-failsafe type.

Railroad brake shoes are usually designed for driving downhill several
hours at a time, and usually the wheels are ruined if the brakes overheat.
The wheel rims fall off at a lower temperature than when the shoes
get soft and start running. Long before that, they are no longer round
and will crack if they are used for any length of time.

I generally trust Reader's Digest articles to be amusing, exiting
and easy to read. I would not count on them for any kind of fact.

B From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.fandom,rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: Re: Ridiculous Movie Geography
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:58:44 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <0U2P1gRD...@bigblue.no>
References: <6gsdlp$5...@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu>
<3531d902...@news.mindspring.com> <892469...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>
<3532d2bf...@news.mindspring.com> <6h0g7a$ajb$1...@nntp-3.io.com>
<353466a7...@news.mindspring.com> <6h2mv2$o...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netc
<6hd2hi$2...@panix.com> <kare-19049...@ppp-asok06--086.sirius.net>
<353b45b3...@news.clark.net> <353c4b25...@news.mindspring.com>
<6hiad5$c...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <353D74...@learnlink.emory.edu>
Lines: 11

In article <353D74...@learnlink.emory.edu>,
Ray Radlein <r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote:
|
|My favorite part of driving through Texas, all the times when we were
|going to College Station to visit my sister, was courteously pulling
|over -- at 65 MPH or so -- to let the other, faster, drivers pass.

Real nice and considerate. That kind of helpfulness from slow drivers
helps keep tensions down and traffic much safer. Wish it were more
common around here. The Swedes are quite good at ti, though.

C From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: UK/US Cultural Difference (and a malapropism)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:06:13 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
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In article <ErqM...@scn.org>, ka...@scn.org (Kate Schaefer) wrote:
|
|In a previous article, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) says:
|[snippage]
|

|>By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with

|>a pharmacy. ...

|What a number of misconceptions you have about the United States; at
|least most of them are relatively harmless. No, in the US a drugstore is
|not the same thing as a pharmacy. A drugstore is a store which sells

|sundry items including over-the-counter drugs, ...

Where is the misconception?
As I said, I had never been able to equate them. Still, as you say,
they sell drugs, some of which are prescription or even prohibited
in many other countries. And, as I understand, with no need for
a professional pharmacist to give advice to the customer. THAT is
where I see the major difference. Even Germany, which is quite liberal
with the number of permitted drugs, demand that almost anything
with more than a placebo effect has to be sold by a pharmacy.

This is just a different set of freedom / safety compromises.
You folks are more free to take certain kinds of risks than we are.
It is probably a great benefit for the well educated.

æ From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.setup.misc,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.bugs
Subject: Re: NTFS & HPFS!
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:57:41 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
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<MPG.fa4396de...@news1.mnsinc.com> <6hed1n$leb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <MPG.fa6e4d2a...@news1.mnsinc.com>,
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy) wrote:
|
| ... That is still $95
|which, last time I HEARD, is more than nothing, which is how much the same
|features in NT cost.

A catalog from a local mostly Windows-oriented company
arrived in the mail last week.

Win NT Workstation Nor CD: NOK 2990.
Warp 4.0 Nor CD: NOK 1920.
Difference NOK 1070.

That comes to about 140 US dollars.
Which is what you have to pay for the server features left in the
"workstation" version of NT whether you need them or not.
As usual, free lunches tend to be expensive.

If you need more than one, the difference is greater.
If you have anything at all to upgrade from, like DOS 1.1, the
difference is much greater.

I guess the prices can be improved by discounting, but at least
those are comparable since they are from the same catalog.

f From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Who designed a/o developed the OS/2 1.x kernel?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:47:35 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
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<353e70de....@nyheter.chalmers.se>
<MDRLdUlulsRd-p...@pn-dialkn1-28.primary.net>
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<MDRLdUlulsRd-pn2-OJRDM2ijgINu@localhost> <353afb42...@news.ntnu.no>
<cgzynaqvobo...@as5200-3.sl033.cns.vt.edu>
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In article <353d99d...@news.ntnu.no>,
hara...@ifbt.ntnu.no (Harald Eilertsen) wrote:
|On Tue, 21 Apr 98 17:15:46, "Tony Relyea" <are...@vt.edu> wrote:
|
|>
|>I have read that w/Win-OS/2 you can preemptively multitask in Full screen and
|>run dos window under full screen w/out having to go back to OS/2.
|
|That's probably true. Don't think two win apps in the same windows
|session can multitask preemptively, but they can of course multitask
|with other win and OS/2 apps in different sessions.

This is obviously right. Another thing I heard at the time, but never
got confirmed from somebody placed to really know first-hand, was
that the Windows source code in OS/2 2.11 was indeed the same as
in "real" Windows, but that it was recompiled with an optimizing
32-bit compiler for better performance in the parts near the thunking
interface. Can anybody throw some light on this?

± From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Providing patches (for Y2K etc).
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:56:55 +0200
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<6fr71j$pv0$1...@excalibur.flash.net> <U4fdu6vMpBGF-pn2-qZg9YlZECOnF@localhost>
<3540fdab...@nyheter.chalmers.se>
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<3531abe7....@nyheter.chalmers.se> <jsqwwalupda...@news3.ibm.net>
<3578bdec....@nntpserver.swip.net> <353614...@bellsouth.net>
<35536c94....@nyheter.chalmers.se>
<mbvcclp5eYkY-p...@mfr01-pm3-03.teleport.com>
<35377d9d...@nyheter.chalmers.se> <c1.2b5.2L5rLD$0...@geocities.com>
<c1.2b5.2L5sLK$0...@geocities.com>
<tovckortgbq...@as5200-7.sl022.cns.vt.edu>
<01bd6a78$99df2600$ab41...@MaintPri.osf.noaa.gov>
<3538904d$3$otrezre$mr2...@news.gbsias.com> <vPhO1gRD...@bigblue.no>
<byikfulviqygagkhmqkyee...@news.demon.co.uk>
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In article <byikfulviqygagkhmqkyee...@news.demon.co.uk>,
"Clive" <cliveATcee3DOTdemonDOTcoDOTuk> wrote:
|
|Interesting. And how long did Year 0 last in your scientific community ?

I do not have it down to the microsecond, but the astronomers usually
go for rather high accuracy.

|In your Year Zero, was there an Earth and a sun ( and hence a Year) ?

This is the stupidest question I have seen around here for a while.
The concept of positive and negative integer numbers has been around
for a while.
|
|Europe had Zero understood way before the Middle Ages. It was the Romans who
|had problems with Zero. It was in the Middle Ages when the Church started
|buggering around with calendars to bring them more into line astronomically
|with what the Olmecs, Eygptians, Incas et al knew 3,500 years previously...

You seem to live in some alternate universe. In the one I am in, the
Arabic numbers came to Europe via the Emirate of Cordoba. This happened
towards the end of the early middle ages. It did not catch on really fast.

The Church had adopted the Julian calendar with no other changes than
to substitute an estimate of the year AD by subtracting 753 from the year
AUC after the Roman Empire had declined.. It was still called the Julian
calendar, and was used unchanged until the problems with shifting seasons
became too obvious to ignore any longer.

As in most other things, there are several possible and valid ways
to look at changeing centuries. When each begins and ends is a matter
of convention. The "AD" style calendar did not exixt 1998 years ago,
it was gradually introduced some centuries later. The calendar it
was directly adopted from has no discontinuiety before year 1 AD.

Right now, it is 2751 years since the start of our calendar when you
discount later revisionism.

The old calendar just counted 751, 752, 753, 754.
The Church calendar counted (not defined), 1, 2 until somebody had
reason to date something before year 1 and called that 1 before,
oblivious to the lack of logic.
Astronomers count -1, 0, 1 because that is more convenient for calculations.

And if you look into the variable called "century" in all computers today,
it contains the value '19' rather than '20'. Someday, even the way we
count centuries is likely to become rationalized because of that.

X From: b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.apps
Subject: Re: Source Code for OS/2
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:02:28 +0200
Organization: Norbionics
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<6hiki9$o...@news.service.uci.edu> <353de56f$2$sohffrl$mr2...@news.interlog.com>
<353e8a7c$5$woehfu$mr2...@news.aros.net>
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In article <353e8a7c$5$woehfu$mr2...@news.aros.net>,
jbr...@aros.net (John Brush) wrote:
|In <353de56f$2$sohffrl$mr2...@news.interlog.com>, on 04/22/98 at 08:40
|AM,
| fbu...@interlog.com said:
|
|**>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
|
|**>Is big blue (IBM) releasing the OS/2 source code to programmers now that
|**>it has dropped the product. I believe it would survive in the hands on
|**>the net.
|
|
|**Just another troll from another Win95 dingbat (Check its X-Mailer -
|**Mozilla 3.0 in that bloatware app called Win95).
|
|**Why are all the Win95 dingbats so frightened of OS/2 that they have
|**to spend so much time spreading FUD about it? And of course, this
|**gutless wonder hides behind a pathetically anonymous email address.
|**Of course what else would you expect from a Win95 FUDder?
|
|
|I think they are getting a bit nervous. Gates gets a pie, Gates
|watches 98 crash and burn, someone at M$ hates him so much they turned
|over all the info on the great 'I love microsoft campaign' to the LA
|Times, and the DOJ IS gonna slap them with an anti-trust suit.
|
|On top of that, everything they own becomes obsolete when (if) NT 5.0
|appears. No dos, no 16bit apps, no systems under 128Megs and an 8 Gig
|drive, no ISA support, no command prompts, no more choice, even for
|the cattle.
|
|NT5.0 spells the end of win9* support and development. They will be
|sitting on stuff that will be deader than any version of OS/2 ever
|was. :-)
|
|That is no cause for immediate worry. The last I heard from a beta-tester
last month, the thing still has an unmistakeable alpha-flavour.
He did not refer to the CPU-type.

Raphael Carter

unread,

Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98

to

Dixit ka...@scn.org (Kate Schaefer) in re Re: UK/US Cultural Difference
(and a malapropism):

>In a previous article, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) says:
>>By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with

>>a pharmacy. I guess they work, but I feel more comfortable when
>>I know the people in white behind the counter have a long university
>>education - learning to decipher doctorese scribbling and catch

>>mistakes. [...]
>
>What a number of misconceptions you have about the United States [...]

No kidding. But they say that a lot of _gaijin_ are like that. It's
just like Prester John was saying in his State of the Kingdom address.
You know, right after he talked about controlling the sea monsters in
the Atlantic, but before the part about having to save the forests
before unicorns become extinct. He said, "We must encourage
understanding among nations. Obviously we cannot open up our borders,
lest a flood of outsiders overwhelm us, but we must liberalize our
policies so that a few select foreigners can live on islands off our
coast -- specifically, Hawaii and Japan."

--
ana...@chaparraltree.com <--new e-mail
http://www.chaparraltree.com/ <-- new URL

unread,

Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98

to

Ulrika wrote:
>
> In article <893149...@ibfs.demon.co.uk>, no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert
> Sneddon) writes:
>
> >In article <6hgsuu$f...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
> > xnims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
> >
> >> What makes you think US pharmacists _don't_ have a long university
> >> education?
> >
> > Unfortunately, it's a long *American* university education, with
> >courses like "Math for Plants" and "Bonehead English".
>
> With all possible due respect: Bite me, fanboy.

With due repect, possible and impossible: Come here and say that!

(Sorry I didn't get over to see you when you were this side of the
pond...)

Chris C

Mike Ford

unread,

Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98

to

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:49:58 +0100, Bernard Peek
<b...@intersec.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In rec.arts.sf.fandom, article <893058...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
>"David G. Bell" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes

>>And, yes, there are rules which can prevent hospitals and doctors from

>>competing with commercial pharmacies. It's even possible for a new
>>commercial pharmacy to force the closure (indirectly at least, by
>>restricting the customer base) of a pharmacy run by a doctors' practice.
>
>Hospital pharmacies may offer the usual dispensing services, or they may
>not. It's more usual for hospital pharmacies to supply only drugs and
>other material which can't be provided by a high-street pharmacy.

... or a limited initial supply to in-patients on discharge, or
to out-patients when their consultant prescribes a new drug
following a consultation. Both of these have happened to me,
but further supplies had to be obtained from my GP.

On the other hand, when I was on the clinical trials for one of
my current drugs, I could *only* get supplies from the hospital
pharmacy: I had to attend the relevant hospital clinic once a
month, present a prescription signed by the consultant
supervising the trial to the pharmacy, and even then wait whilst
they checked that my name was on their list of approved
trialists.

--
Mike Ford -- Leeds, UK -- m...@mcgoff.karoo.co.uk

Maureen Kincaid Speller for TAFF

Mike Ford

unread,

Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98

to

On Mon, 20 Apr 98 17:25:06 GMT, no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert
Sneddon) wrote:

>In article <893058...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>
> db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk "David G. Bell" writes:
>

>> Here in the UK, with our health service, prescription drugs are

>> subsidised. You pay a fixed fee (with a potential to be more than the
>> drug costs) with exemptions for certain classes of patient.

>[Spelling mistake fixed]

>
> The elderly, children under 16, pregnant women and people on
>State benefits usually. For the chronically sick, you can get a
>one-year payment certificate for about 30 pounds.

Hah! I wish!! My current one cost GBP 80.50.

> I accompanied my friend Sammy to the pharmacy one time when I was
>over in Atlanta during the winter. She coughed up (so to speak) about
>200 bucks at the window[1]. This was apparently one month's supply,
>and not untypical.
>
> Ouch.

Ouch indeed! Certainly makes 80 quid per year pale into
insignificance -- yet again I am inordinately grateful for the
NHS, even in its current diminished state.

Arthur Hlavaty

unread,

Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98

to

Ray Radlein (r...@learnlink.emory.edu) wrote:

: Cally Soukup wrote:
: >
: > I have a friend who is a pharmacist. She had a very long university
: > education, and then had to pass several very stringent tests to be a
: > registered pharmacist. She works at a drugstore. Just because
: > people work in the same place where you can buy, say, shoelaces and
: > charcoal for your grill doesn't mean they're not registered
: > pharmacists. We just don't usually specialise our stores as much as
: > in Europe. Well, except for places like the refrigerator magnet
: > store.

: And you don't even *want* to know how long you have to study Magnetology
: before you can work *there*.

That's because the nation that controls magnetology controls the
universe.

--
Arthur D. Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust
\\\ E-zine available on request. ///

Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr

unread,

Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98

to

In article <6hkjud$j...@panix3.panix.com>, hla...@panix.com (Arthur Hlavaty)
writes:

>Ray Radlein (r...@learnlink.emory.edu) wrote:
>: Cally Soukup wrote:
>: >
>: > I have a friend who is a pharmacist. She had a very long university
>: > education, and then had to pass several very stringent tests to be a
>: > registered pharmacist. She works at a drugstore. Just because
>: > people work in the same place where you can buy, say, shoelaces and
>: > charcoal for your grill doesn't mean they're not registered
>: > pharmacists. We just don't usually specialise our stores as much as
>: > in Europe. Well, except for places like the refrigerator magnet
>: > store.
>
>: And you don't even *want* to know how long you have to study Magnetology
>: before you can work *there*.
>
>That's because the nation that controls magnetology controls the
>universe.

Not so loud, Arthur! You don't want to catch the attention of those guys
from the Church of Magnetology, or they'll take over the newsgroup.

[You know, those nice-looking young men covered with iron filings.]

-- Alan

===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210
===============================================================================

Robert Sneddon

unread,

Apr 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/22/98

to

In article <009C518D...@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU

"Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr" writes:

> In article <6hkjud$j...@panix3.panix.com>, hla...@panix.com (Arthur Hlavaty)
> writes:
> >Ray Radlein (r...@learnlink.emory.edu) wrote:
> >That's because the nation that controls magnetology controls the
> >universe.
>
> Not so loud, Arthur! You don't want to catch the attention of those guys
> from the Church of Magnetology, or they'll take over the newsgroup.
>
> [You know, those nice-looking young men covered with iron filings.]

Yes, but are their iron filings pointing in the Right Direction?

Vicki Rosenzweig

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

"And furthermore--and this is the most important point--Thou Shalt *NOT*
ordain bishops."

Vicki Rosenzweig
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
"Typos are Coyote padding through the language, grinning."
-- Susanna Sturgis

Ulrika

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

In article <353E0E...@amc.de>, Chris Croughton <crou...@amc.de> writes:
>Ulrika wrote:

>> With all possible due respect: Bite me, fanboy.
>
>With due repect, possible and impossible: Come here and say that!

Been there, done that, have the t-shirts to prove it. Not likely
to be able to get back before Novacon, I figure. (Yes, I am
thinking about it...why?)

>(Sorry I didn't get over to see you when you were this side of the
>pond...)

Yep, me too. Still, it means I can go on merrily mispronouncing
your last name for the time being.

Ray Radlein

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

Arthur Hlavaty wrote:
>
> Ray Radlein (r...@learnlink.emory.edu) wrote:
> : Cally Soukup wrote:
> : >
> : > I have a friend who is a pharmacist. She had a very long
> : > university education, and then had to pass several very stringent
> : > tests to be a registered pharmacist. She works at a drugstore.
> : > Just because people work in the same place where you can buy, say,
> : > shoelaces and charcoal for your grill doesn't mean they're not
> : > registered pharmacists. We just don't usually specialise our
> : > stores as much as in Europe. Well, except for places like the
> : > refrigerator magnet store.
>
> : And you don't even *want* to know how long you have to study
> : Magnetology before you can work *there*.
>

> That's because the nation that controls magnetology controls the
> universe.

Which also explains why the "Chock Full O'Weak Nuclear Force" store at
Perimeter Mall has such trouble finding qualified sales technicians.

Steve Davies

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

In article <893093...@ibfs.demon.co.uk> on Mon, 20 Apr 98 17:25:06

GMT no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk (Robert Sneddon) wrote:>
>
> The elderly, children under 16, pregnant women and people on
> State benefits usually.
>

And people who, like myself, have medical conditions requiring continual
medication and get a FMPC exemption...

Steve Davies

David E Romm

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

In article <353ECA...@learnlink.emory.edu>, rad...@ibm.net wrote:

> Arthur Hlavaty wrote:
> >
> > Ray Radlein (r...@learnlink.emory.edu) wrote:
> > : Cally Soukup wrote:
> > : >

> > : > We just don't usually specialise our

> > : > stores as much as in Europe. Well, except for places like the
> > : > refrigerator magnet store.
> >
> > : And you don't even *want* to know how long you have to study
> > : Magnetology before you can work *there*.
> >
> > That's because the nation that controls magnetology controls the
> > universe.
>
> Which also explains why the "Chock Full O'Weak Nuclear Force" store at
> Perimeter Mall has such trouble finding qualified sales technicians.

Most of them are off being pharmacists.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
Dispensing muon suppliments.

John Lorentz

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

Robert Sneddon <no...@ibfs.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<893149...@ibfs.demon.co.uk>...

> In article <6hgsuu$f...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
> xnims...@aol.com "Doug Wickstrom" writes:
>
> > What makes you think US pharmacists _don't_ have a long university
> > education?
>
> Unfortunately, it's a long *American* university education, with
> courses like "Math for Plants" and "Bonehead English".
>

> --
If you'd like an example of *American* university courses in Pharmacy, the
URL below will take you to last fall's catalog listing for Oregon State
University's College of Pharmacy. I tried--but I couldn't find "Math for
Plants" or "Bonehead English" anywhere in the list...

https://www.adminfo.ucsadm.orst.edu/PROD/owa/osu_catalog1.P_ListCatClass?col
l=07&dept=PHAR&sel_str1=0&sel_str2=499&subj=&term=199801

(I only have degrees in Chemistry and Computer Science from Oregon State,
rather than taking a tougher major like Pharmacy--which requires five years
of undergraduate work--and even I didn't find time for "Math for Plants" or
"Bonehead English".)

--John

John Lorentz

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote in article
<6hj2o7$c...@panix2.panix.com>...
> ...It's the

> people working just over the poverty line who have the problem paying for
> medical care, not the the above-named categories.

And here in Oregon, we have the Oregon Health Plan, which covers people
above the Medicaid limit, but still without otherwise-provided health care
and without the means to pay for it.

--John

Marilee J. Layman

unread,

Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

In <6hj2o7$c...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber)
wrote:

>I don't seem to have yet seen Robert's post, but in the US, the elderly,
>children under 16, people on state benefits, the poor in general, and the
>chronic sick, all get free health care from the government via Medicaid
>and Medicare;

Well, not exactly. If you're elderly and/or disabled and *aren't*
poor, you just get Medicare. Medicare requires a premium and
co-payments. However, in the last year or so, HMOs have been able to
offer a Medicare HMO where the premiums are paid for you. I have one
of those now.

--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
RELM Mu...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
*New* Web site: http://www.webmoose.com/owc/
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Allen J. Baum

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Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98

to

> >"David G. Bell" writes:

> >> Here in the UK, with our health service, prescription drugs are
> >> subsidised. You pay a fixed fee (with a potential to be more than the
> >> drug costs) with exemptions for certain classes of patient.

>(Robert Sneddon) wrote:

> > The elderly, children under 16, pregnant women and people on

> >State benefits usually. For the chronically sick, you can get a
> >one-year payment certificate for about 30 pounds.

(Mike Ford) wrote:

> Hah! I wish!! My current one cost GBP 80.50.

Huh, when I lived there (as a resident alien, etc.), I tried to get
a prescription for me thyroid medication. The doctor said that since
this was a chronic condition, I wouldn't have to pay for any prescriptions.
I don't recall having to get a certificate, he just filled out some form
& told me to give it to the pharmacy or something (details are dim).

Unusually generous, especially it applied to medications that had nothing
to do with my 'chronic' condition,

--
***********************************************
* Allen J. Baum *
* Digital Semiconductor *
* 181 Lytton Ave. *
* Palo Alto, CA 94306 *
***********************************************

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Apr 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/24/98

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mike weber wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:18:03 +0200, in <35404A...@amc.de>, Chris
> Croughton <crou...@amc.de> (Chris Croughton) wrote:
>
> >Ulrika wrote:
>
> >> Yep, me too. Still, it means I can go on merrily mispronouncing
> >> your last name for the time being.
> >
> >Out of interest, how do you pronounce it and has someone told you
> >how it should be pronounced? Do you, in fact, know that you're
> >mispronouncing it?
> >
> Personally, i've been referring to you as a small piece of toasted
> bread in a salad.

A lot of people do that <g>. I'm not sensitive about how it's
pronounced, given that it's impossible to deduce which pronunciation
of 'ough' is correct.

Some of the variants:

Cr-oo-ton
Cr-uff-ton
Crow-ton (as in corvidacae)
Cr-ow-ton (as in 'ouch' or 'house' - this is the actual way
it's pronounced...)

But you're welcome to call me Chris or Keris (the latter is how I'm
known by a lot of Britfen because there are so many called Chris),
which aren't so hard to pronounce...

(Incidentally, is your surname pronounced as in 'webber', or 'Vey-ber'
as in German, or some other way?)

Chris C

Marci Malinowycz

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Apr 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/24/98

to

Ray Radlein <r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote in article <354175...@learnlink.emory.edu>...
> Chris Croughton wrote:
> > . . .

> > Cr-ow-ton (as in 'ouch' or 'house' - this is the actual way
> > it's pronounced...)
>

> Woo-hoo! Yay *me*! I got it right! I shall dance an end-zone dance of
> victory! I shall run around and flap my arms as though I had just scored
> a goal! I shall wait for my teammates to pile on top of me for no
> clearly discernable reason!
>
>
> I've always been a bit better than average at pronouncing names on the
> first go, but still, it's obviously not always possible. As I used to
> tell my students, on the first day of class, "I'll try my best, but if I
> mispronounce your name... TOUGH! HAHAHAHA! NO ONE EVER GOT *MY* NAME
> RIGHT WHEN *I* WAS A STUDENT!"
>
> I *enjoyed* teaching.

Care to try mine? (bwah, hah, hah, and all that)

-- Marci Malinowycz
(remove the nospam to send reply mail)

"I won my czar claim. Now I'm claim crazy!"

Ray Radlein

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

Chris Croughton wrote:
>
> A lot of people do that <g>. I'm not sensitive about how it's
> pronounced, given that it's impossible to deduce which pronunciation
> of 'ough' is correct.
>
> Some of the variants:
>
> Cr-oo-ton

(My second guess)

> Cr-uff-ton
> Crow-ton (as in corvidacae)

> Cr-ow-ton (as in 'ouch' or 'house' - this is the actual way
> it's pronounced...)

Woo-hoo! Yay *me*! I got it right! I shall dance an end-zone dance of
victory! I shall run around and flap my arms as though I had just scored
a goal! I shall wait for my teammates to pile on top of me for no
clearly discernable reason!

I've always been a bit better than average at pronouncing names on the
first go, but still, it's obviously not always possible. As I used to
tell my students, on the first day of class, "I'll try my best, but if I
mispronounce your name... TOUGH! HAHAHAHA! NO ONE EVER GOT *MY* NAME
RIGHT WHEN *I* WAS A STUDENT!"

I *enjoyed* teaching.

Bridget Hardcastle

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In article <abaum-23049...@terrapin.pa.dec.com>, ab...@pa.dec.com
(Allen J. Baum) wrote:

>
> > >"David G. Bell" writes:
>
> > >> Here in the UK, with our health service, prescription drugs are
> > >> subsidised.

> Huh, when I lived there (as a resident alien, etc.), I tried to get

> a prescription for me thyroid medication.

And I see yer picked up a nice of Cockney accent while you were there,
Allen me old China!

Bug

David E Romm

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In article <354175...@learnlink.emory.edu>, rad...@ibm.net wrote:

> Chris Croughton wrote:

> > Cr-ow-ton (as in 'ouch' or 'house' - this is the actual way
> > it's pronounced...)
>
> Woo-hoo! Yay *me*! I got it right!

Mee toooo!!

> I shall dance an end-zone dance of
> victory! I shall run around and flap my arms as though I had just scored
> a goal! I shall wait for my teammates to pile on top of me for no
> clearly discernable reason!

I just want to run around in the street screaming "Niners!"

> HAHAHAHA! NO ONE EVER GOT *MY* NAME
> RIGHT WHEN *I* WAS A STUDENT!"

Um, rhymes with our Secratary of State, right?

> I *enjoyed* teaching.

And there's a hoard of construction workers and waiters who remember your
quirky sense of humor.

--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm

"There's an ancient Chinese proverb that they sing to the Yellow Seas: He who cleans the countryside deserves to be Chinese." -- "Invitation to the Ping-Pong Ball", the Wombles

Aahz Maruch

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In article <01bd700d$6c3154e0$be44fdd0@sputnik>,

Marci Malinowycz <nospam...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>Care to try mine? (bwah, hah, hah, and all that)

Mah-LEEN-oh-witch, of course.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)

Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het

"If you want a picture of the future of Usenet, imagine a foot stuck in
a human mouth -- forever." -- Avram Grumer

Chris Croughton

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

Marci Malinowycz wrote:
>
> Ray Radlein <r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote in article <354175...@learnlink.emory.edu>...
> >

> > Woo-hoo! Yay *me*! I got it right! I shall dance an end-zone dance of

> > victory! I shall run around and flap my arms as though I had just scored
> > a goal! I shall wait for my teammates to pile on top of me for no
> > clearly discernable reason!

Well, if you insist <g>. Aahz does the breaking of Rule 6, though...

> > I've always been a bit better than average at pronouncing names on the
> > first go, but still, it's obviously not always possible. As I used to
> > tell my students, on the first day of class, "I'll try my best, but if I

> > mispronounce your name... TOUGH! HAHAHAHA! NO ONE EVER GOT *MY* NAME

> > RIGHT WHEN *I* WAS A STUDENT!"

Oh? I'd say "rad-line" in German pronunciation, but I wouldn't be
terribly shocked if you pronounced it "rad-leen".

> > I *enjoyed* teaching.

Teaching what, out of interest?

> Care to try mine? (bwah, hah, hah, and all that)
>

> -- Marci Malinowycz

Mah-leen'-oh-vich, approximately?

Chris C

Morgan Gallagher

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In this post <aahzErz...@netcom.com>, Aahz Maruch <aa...@netcom.com>
said:

>In article <01bd700d$6c3154e0$be44fdd0@sputnik>,
>Marci Malinowycz <nospam...@msn.com> wrote:
>>

>>Care to try mine? (bwah, hah, hah, and all that)
>

>Mah-LEEN-oh-witch, of course.

Mah-leen-oh-vitch, surely?
^

While we're at, I get really fed up when people pronounce my surmane
wrong...

--
Morgan

"Nunc demum intellego," dixit Winnie ille Pu. "Stultus et
delusus fui," dixit "et ursus sine ullo cerebro sum."

Ulrika

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In article <3540CC...@amc.de>, Chris Croughton <crou...@amc.de> writes:

>Some of the variants:
>
> Cr-oo-ton

> Cr-uff-ton
> Crow-ton (as in corvidacae)

> Cr-ow-ton (as in 'ouch' or 'house' - this is the actual way
> it's pronounced...)

Ah, I've got a different, probably not new, wrong variant which
is what I always hear in my head: Crofton.

I seem to recall thinking, based on something somebody else said
that it actually sounds like 'cotton' with an 'r' in it.

So both my wrong pronounciation, and my right pronounciation
were wrong. Impressive, eh?

Still, many of the Brits can't pronounce my name either --
they keep stuttering over the 'ka'....

Philip Chee

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In article <cRIP1gRD...@bigblue.no> b...@bigblue.no writes:
>In article <353d99d...@news.ntnu.no>,
>hara...@ifbt.ntnu.no (Harald Eilertsen) wrote:
>|On Tue, 21 Apr 98 17:15:46, "Tony Relyea" <are...@vt.edu> wrote:

>|>I have read that w/Win-OS/2 you can preemptively multitask in Full screen and
>|>run dos window under full screen w/out having to go back to OS/2.

>|That's probably true. Don't think two win apps in the same windows
>|session can multitask preemptively, but they can of course multitask
>|with other win and OS/2 apps in different sessions.

>This is obviously right. Another thing I heard at the time, but never
>got confirmed from somebody placed to really know first-hand, was
>that the Windows source code in OS/2 2.11 was indeed the same as
>in "real" Windows, but that it was recompiled with an optimizing
>32-bit compiler for better performance in the parts near the thunking
>interface. Can anybody throw some light on this?

Yes. IBM did two things on the Win-OS/2 code

1. Recompile with Watcom's C compiler which at that time produced the most
compact and fastest code of all the intel C compliers.

2. Spent a lot of time profiling the executing code and hand tweaking for
maximum speed and performance.

By the way why is this posted to rasff?

Phil

---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60-5-545-1011 Fax:+60-5-547-3932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
---
ž 9947.34 ž Programmers "C" it differently!

DPotter49

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

>"Still, many of the Brits can't pronounce my name either --
they keep stuttering over the 'ka'....
"<

It's because they have no ka.
:^>
-- D. Potter

Vicki Rosenzweig

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In article <1b2P1gRD...@bigblue.no>, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) wrote:
>In article <ErqM...@scn.org>, ka...@scn.org (Kate Schaefer) wrote:
>|

>|In a previous article, b...@bigblue.no (B. Vermo) says:
>|[snippage]
>|

>|>By the way, I have never managed to equate a U.S. drugstore with
>|>a pharmacy. ...
>
>|What a number of misconceptions you have about the United States; at
>|least most of them are relatively harmless. No, in the US a drugstore is
>|not the same thing as a pharmacy. A drugstore is a store which sells
>|sundry items including over-the-counter drugs, ...
>
>Where is the misconception?
>As I said, I had never been able to equate them. Still, as you say,
>they sell drugs, some of which are prescription or even prohibited
>in many other countries. And, as I understand, with no need for
>a professional pharmacist to give advice to the customer. THAT is
>where I see the major difference. Even Germany, which is quite liberal
>with the number of permitted drugs, demand that almost anything
>with more than a placebo effect has to be sold by a pharmacy.
>
>This is just a different set of freedom / safety compromises.
>You folks are more free to take certain kinds of risks than we are.
>It is probably a great benefit for the well educated.
>

I think you're still operating under a misconception. To sell
prescription drugs in the US requires a pharmacy staffed by
one or more licensed pharmacists. They may or may not
give the customer advice--sometimes the customer comes in
and asks for a prescription to be filled, and if there are a lot
of people there and it's something ordinary, the pharmacist
may just say "fine" or "that will take 20 minutes" rather than
offering advice if none is asked.

Most pharmacies in the US also sell other things, both
over-the-counter medications (such as aspirin and cold
remedies) and related products (it makes a great deal of
sense to me that such things as contact lens cleaner,
toothpaste, and bandages are sold in drugstores) and,
increasingly, a wide variety of other products, including
slippers and cookies.

And yes, a supermarket can sell aspirin and some allergy
medications--things that don't require a prescription. Are
there limitations on what stores can sell non-prescription
drugs in Sweden?

And different countries have different rules on what can
be sold without a prescription, what can be sold with one,
and what can't legally be sold at all. That's a different
question.

Aahz Maruch

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

In article <ukBv4HA+...@sidhen.demon.co.uk>,

Morgan Gallagher <Mor...@sidhen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In this post <aahzErz...@netcom.com>, Aahz Maruch <aa...@netcom.com>
>said:
>>In article <01bd700d$6c3154e0$be44fdd0@sputnik>,
>>Marci Malinowycz <nospam...@msn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Care to try mine? (bwah, hah, hah, and all that)
>>
>>Mah-LEEN-oh-witch, of course.
>
>Mah-leen-oh-vitch, surely?
> ^

Uh, I was thinking in Deutsch at the time, that's it, right.

>While we're at, I get really fed up when people pronounce my surmane
>wrong...

Silent G?

Gary Farber

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

: |What a number of misconceptions you have about the United States; at
: |least most of them are relatively harmless. No, in the US a drugstore is
: |not the same thing as a pharmacy. A drugstore is a store which sells
: |sundry items including over-the-counter drugs, ...

: Where is the misconception?
: As I said, I had never been able to equate them. Still, as you say,
: they sell drugs, some of which are prescription or even prohibited
: in many other countries. And, as I understand, with no need for
: a professional pharmacist to give advice to the customer.

This is your misconception; it is against the law for anyone but a
professional, licensed, pharmacist to dispense prescribed medications.
The fact that the other folk in the store selling other items than
prescribed medications are not pharmacists is as irrelevant as the fact
that neither you nor I are pharmacists.

: THAT is

: where I see the major difference.

There is no such difference.

: Even Germany, which is quite liberal
: with the number of permitted drugs, demand that almost anything
: with more than a placebo effect has to be sold by a pharmacy.

Same here, except for "over-the-counter" drugs such as aspirin, various
cold remedies, etc., which are validated by the FDA after tons of studies,
as being safe for anyone to take; those, too, however, come with various
warnings about how you should consult with a doctor or pharmacist before
taking if various conditions apply.

: This is just a different set of freedom / safety compromises.

: You folks are more free to take certain kinds of risks than we are.
: It is probably a great benefit for the well educated.

This is all based on your erroneous notions as to how
pharmacies/drugstores work in this country.
--
--
Copyright 1998 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US

Raphael Carter

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

Dixit "Marci Malinowycz" <nospam...@msn.com> in re Re: UK/US
Cultural Difference (and a malapropism):

>Care to try mine? (bwah, hah, hah, and all that)

Mah-leen-o-vich?

As for stress, probably the second syllable, but I'd like to hedge
with small side bets on the first and third.

--
ana...@chaparraltree.com <--new e-mail
http://www.chaparraltree.com/ <-- new URL

Rob Hansen

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:31:31 -0400, Ray Radlein
<r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote:

>Chris Croughton wrote:
>>
>> A lot of people do that <g>. I'm not sensitive about how it's
>> pronounced, given that it's impossible to deduce which pronunciation
>> of 'ough' is correct.
>>

>> Some of the variants:
>>
>> Cr-oo-ton
>

>(My second guess)

>
>> Cr-uff-ton
>> Crow-ton (as in corvidacae)
>> Cr-ow-ton (as in 'ouch' or 'house' - this is the actual way
>> it's pronounced...)
>

>Woo-hoo! Yay *me*! I got it right! I shall dance an end-zone dance of
>victory! I shall run around and flap my arms as though I had just scored
>a goal! I shall wait for my teammates to pile on top of me for no
>clearly discernable reason!

Chris is pulling your leg, Ray. It's actually pronounced 'Kryten', as
in RED DWARF.

Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/

Arthur Hlavaty

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98

to

Vicki Rosenzweig (v...@interport.net) wrote:
: I think you're still operating under a misconception. To sell

: prescription drugs in the US requires a pharmacy staffed by
: one or more licensed pharmacists. They may or may not
: give the customer advice--sometimes the customer comes in
: and asks for a prescription to be filled, and if there are a lot
: of people there and it's something ordinary, the pharmacist
: may just say "fine" or "that will take 20 minutes" rather than
: offering advice if none is asked.

Some pharmacies, like CVS, ask customers who don't speak tothe pharmacist
to sign a list to the effect that they were given a chance to and
declined.

--
Arthur D. Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust
\\\ E-zine available on request. ///