Att'n: Jewish Smofcon Attendees!
Janice Gelb
Friday afternoon of Smofcon, there will be a group menorah
lighting in the con suite at 4:30 pm. Candles, holiday
goodies, and dreidles will be provided. Please bring
your menorah!
-- Janice
P.S. There will also be handouts explaining the holiday and
its traditions for anyone who wants to join the general
festivities.
****************************************************************
Janice Gelb | The only connection Sun has with
janic...@eng.sun.com | this message is the return address.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8018/index.html
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain"
-- Lily Tomlin
Gary Farber
Janice Gelb <jan...@marvin.eng.sun.com> wrote:
: Greetings!
: Friday afternoon of Smofcon, there will be a group menorah
: lighting in the con suite at 4:30 pm. Candles, holiday
: goodies, and dreidles will be provided. Please bring
: your menorah!
: -- Janice
: P.S. There will also be handouts explaining the holiday and
: its traditions for anyone who wants to join the general
: festivities.
This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
Happy Hannukah, to anyone who wants one.
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; For Hire as: Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; Northeast US
Loren MacGregor
>
> This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
> the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
Personally, I was rather fed up with some folks taking what was
meant as a wish for peace and well-being as an attempt to be
in-your-face about religion. Kind of hurt my feelings reading about
it all over the last few years, so I've decided it's better just to
keep quiet.
Except for this note, of course.
-- LJM
Samuel Paik
> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
--
Samuel S. Paik | http://www.webnexus.com/users/paik/
3D and multimedia, architecture and implementation
Solyent Green is kitniyos!
Rob Hansen
>This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
>the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
After all the aggravation last year, this is an expression I will
never use again.
--
Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In <82h0tt$db1$1...@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM>
> Janice Gelb <jan...@marvin.eng.sun.com> wrote:
> : Greetings!
>
> : Friday afternoon of Smofcon, there will be a group menorah
> : lighting in the con suite at 4:30 pm. Candles, holiday
> : goodies, and dreidles will be provided. Please bring
> : your menorah!
>
> : -- Janice
>
> : P.S. There will also be handouts explaining the holiday and
> : its traditions for anyone who wants to join the general
> : festivities.
>
> the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
I reserve expressions of "Happy Hannukah" for arenas where I have some
reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
flamewar, Gary.
Lis Carey
Loren MacGregor
>
> Loren MacGregor wrote:
> > > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
> > > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
> solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
Actually, Gary wrote that. You may certainly wish me a Happy
Hannukah if you like, however.
-- LJM
Kevin J. Maroney
>I reserve expressions of "Happy Hannukah" for arenas where I have some
>reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
>flamewar, Gary.
Well, then. Unhappy Hanukkah, everyone!
--
Kevin Maroney | kmar...@crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com
Loren MacGregor
>
> On 6 Dec 1999 20:18:56 GMT, Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
> >the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
> never use again.
If I'm not still in your kill file, I'll take this opportunity to
say that on this we are in agreement.
-- LJM
Avram Grumer
> This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year
> (this is the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
Silly Gary. Hanukah isn't till the 25th.
--
Avram Grumer | Any sufficiently advanced
Home: av...@bigfoot.com | technology is indistinguishable
http://www.PigsAndFishes.org | from an error message.
Gary Farber
: Loren MacGregor wrote:
:> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
:> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
: It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
: solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared miracle of
the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
But you probably know that. (It's also not really one of the major Jewish
holidays, but c'est la vie.)
Gary Farber
wrote:
[. . .]
: I reserve expressions of "Happy Hannukah" for arenas where I have some
: reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
: flamewar, Gary.
It seems unlikely anyone would have a flamewar anywhere when people are
wished "Happy Hannukah" during Hannukah, as opposed to during Christmas.
It also takes more than one person to create a flamewar.
John Richards
>
> In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> wrote:
> : Loren MacGregor wrote:
> :> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
> :> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
> : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
Hmm, On Though For The Day this morning Jonathan Sachs was suggesting
that it was against the Greeks. However it was rather early.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
Loren MacGregor
>
> In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> wrote:
> : Loren MacGregor wrote:
> :> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
> :> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
> : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
> the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
>
> But you probably know that. (It's also not really one of the major Jewish
> holidays, but c'est la vie.)
So you raised this whole issue just so you could say that?
Interesting.
-- LJM
Loren MacGregor
>
> It also takes more than one person to create a flamewar.
As more data for your "people take my messages wrong" database,
Gary, it seemed to me on the last go-through of this discussion that
you worked -awfully- hard to build and sustain a flame war. That's
what it looked like from this end.
-- LJM
P Nielsen Hayden
<384D31...@panorama.panorama.com>:
>Gary Farber wrote:
>>
>> In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com>
>> wrote:
>> : Loren MacGregor wrote:
>> :> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year
>> :> > (this is the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>>
>> : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
>> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>>
>> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the
>> Romans,
>
>Hmm, On Though For The Day this morning Jonathan Sachs was suggesting
>that it was against the Greeks. However it was rather early.
Jonathan Sachs is right; Gary is wrong. The Maccabees revolted in the
second century BCE against the Seleucid Empire, one of the Hellenic
satrapies that emerged from the remains of Alexander's empire over a
century earlier.
Rome doesn't really show up much in the Hebrew scriptures; it's really more
of a preoccupation of Christians. But it's understandable that well-
meaning laypersons should mix up Jewish and Christian religious history and
practice, and I'm sure Gary would never dream of giving anyone a hard time
about it.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
P Nielsen Hayden
<82jcmn$cdd$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>:
>In article <82j9sn$in3$3...@news.panix.com>,
>Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com>
>>wrote:
>>: Loren MacGregor wrote:
>>:> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year
>>:> > (this is the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>>
>>: It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
>>: solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>>
>>It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the
>>Romans, and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared
>>miracle of the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
>
> Honest question: there was a successful revolt against the Romans?
>I thought, a brief pause during and after a Roman civil war excepted,
>they held the region until the Byzantines started losing territory.
See my other post. Gary misspoke; the revolt in Maccebees happened before
there was a Roman Empire, and was against Hellenic (or at least Hellenized)
overlords in the backwash of Alexander's failed empire.
Janice Gelb
Yup - looked like a troll to me, too...
Rachael Lininger
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>Rome doesn't really show up much in the Hebrew scriptures; it's really more
>of a preoccupation of Christians.
Lions focus the attention wonderfully.
Rachael
--
Rachael Lininger | "It's good to know an assassin
lininger@ | you can hire with a can of tuna fish."
chem.wisc.edu | --Rocco da Mallet
Janice Gelb
>Gary Farber wrote:
>>
>> In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> wrote:
>> : Loren MacGregor wrote:
>> :> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
>> :> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>>
>> : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
>> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>>
>> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
>
>that it was against the Greeks. However it was rather early.
>
Jonathan Sachs is correct: it was against the Greeks. Besides
the military victory, Chanukah is also celebrated as defiance
against the Hellenization of Jewish culture at the time.
Laura Burchard
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>Rome doesn't really show up much in the Hebrew scriptures; it's really more
>meaning laypersons should mix up Jewish and Christian religious history and
>practice, and I'm sure Gary would never dream of giving anyone a hard time
>about it.
Patrick, are you *sure* you aren't British?
Laura
--
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
Doug Berry
<pa...@webnexus.com> found stone tablets, which when translated
read:
>It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
>solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
What was the Slobbovian greeting? "May you have a better time at
this cruddy mid-winter festival than you deserve."
Something like that.
I got *Thomas Guides* for Hannukah! Can you tell I'm a
cartogrophile?
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"
Doug Berry
<kmar...@crossover.com> found stone tablets, which when
translated read:
>Elisabeth Carey <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>>I reserve expressions of "Happy Hannukah" for arenas where I have some
>>reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
>>flamewar, Gary.
>
>Well, then. Unhappy Hanukkah, everyone!
And a Happy Ramadan!
<g,d,r>
Doug Berry
<lis....@mediaone.net> found stone tablets, which when
translated read:
>I reserve expressions of "Happy Hannukah" for arenas where I have some
>reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
>flamewar, Gary.
I have a personal rule: Never turn down a honest expression of
well-wishing. Served me well all my life.
Jo Walton
p...@panix.com "P Nielsen Hayden" writes:
> Rome doesn't really show up much in the Hebrew scriptures; it's really more
> of a preoccupation of Christians.
Not even what happened in 70 and the destruction of the temple? I'd have
thought that was a significant event?
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Interstichia; Poetry; RASFW FAQ; etc.
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <8E95809...@207.237.128.168>
> p...@panix.com "P Nielsen Hayden" writes:
>
>> Rome doesn't really show up much in the Hebrew scriptures; it's really
>> more of a preoccupation of Christians.
>
>Not even what happened in 70 and the destruction of the temple? I'd have
>thought that was a significant event?
Surely. But that isn't in the twenty-four books of the Hebrew Bible, which
is what I meant.
Doug Berry
Gelb) found stone tablets, which when translated read:
>Jonathan Sachs is correct: it was against the Greeks. Besides
>the military victory, Chanukah is also celebrated as defiance
>against the Hellenization of Jewish culture at the time.
Or as a rabbi once told me: "Most Jewish holidays can be
described as 'they tried to kill us, it didn't work, let's eat.'"
Jo Walton
p...@panix.com "P Nielsen Hayden" writes:
> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote in <944596...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>:
>
> >In article <8E95809...@207.237.128.168>
> > p...@panix.com "P Nielsen Hayden" writes:
> >
> >> Rome doesn't really show up much in the Hebrew scriptures; it's really
> >> more of a preoccupation of Christians.
> >
> >Not even what happened in 70 and the destruction of the temple? I'd have
> >thought that was a significant event?
>
> Surely. But that isn't in the twenty-four books of the Hebrew Bible, which
> is what I meant.
But isn't there a festival commemorating it?
The evidence I have for this, which I may have got entirely confused,
is a story about Napoleon going past a synagogue where the Jews
were wailing, and he asked why and they said because of the destruction
of the temple. Then he said he'd go and redress this wrong, until he
was told it happened 1730 years ago, whereupon he said that surely it
will be rebuilt one day as they've remembered it so long. (This is
not necessarily the moral I'd have drawn from these facts, but then
I'm not Napoleon.) Possibly either Napoleon or I or the person
who told me the story was wrong about the date and this is actually a
festival commemorating the Babylonian destruction of the temple, not
the Roman one?
Dave Weingart
>But isn't there a festival commemorating it?
Tisha B'Av (the 9th of Av). Not a very happy day.
>I'm not Napoleon.) Possibly either Napoleon or I or the person
>who told me the story was wrong about the date and this is actually a
>festival commemorating the Babylonian destruction of the temple, not
>the Roman one?
Jewish tradition holds that both temples were destroyed on the same
day, the 9th day of the month of Av.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK O, what can ail thee, geek-at-arms
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Alone and slowly telnetting?
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux The net has crumbled from the load
And no hosts ping
Avram Grumer
> In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> wrote:
> : Loren MacGregor wrote:
> :> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
> :> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
> : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
> and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared miracle of
> the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
The origins of the Feast of Dedication or the Festival of Lights go back
farther than the time of the Maccabbeean rebellion. The 25th of Kislev
(the first day of Hannukah) used to be the time of inducting new priests
into the priesthood, and the initiation process lasted for the next seven
days. I think the dedication of the foundation stone of the Temple was
also involved, along with the lighting of the (seven-candled) menorah. It
wouldn't surprise me a bit to find that there was a solstice/renewal
element involved in the ultimate origins of the holiday.
Beth Friedman
>In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> wrote:
>: Loren MacGregor wrote:
>: It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
>: solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
>It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
>and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared miracle of
>the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
Er, Greeks.
>But you probably know that. (It's also not really one of the major Jewish
>holidays, but c'est la vie.)
True, but I like it. It's one of the few occasions where a) the Jews fought
back, and b) won. For a while, at least.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Bruce Baugh
>I have a personal rule: Never turn down a honest expression of
>well-wishing. Served me well all my life.
Me too.
Later, there may be a good opportunity to help the well-wisher
understand ways that a different expression would avoid potential
pitfall. Maybe not. But starting by acknowledging the intent usually
seems a good move.
--
Bruce Baugh / bruce...@sff.net
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with guns, that
I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein
Elisabeth Carey
>
> On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 18:23:40 -0500, Elisabeth Carey
> translated read:
>
> >reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
> >flamewar, Gary.
>
> well-wishing. Served me well all my life.
Now, if only we can convince Gary...
Lis Carey
Lenny Bailes
>
> jo...@panorama.panorama.com (John Richards) wrote in
> <384D31...@panorama.panorama.com>:
>
> >Gary Farber wrote:
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >> : Loren MacGregor wrote:
> >> :> > (this is the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
> >>
> >> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
> >>
> >> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the
> >> Romans,
> >
> >that it was against the Greeks. However it was rather early.
>
> second century BCE against the Seleucid Empire, one of the Hellenic
> satrapies that emerged from the remains of Alexander's empire over a
> century earlier.
>
Wouldn't that be Hellenistic or post-Hellenistic instead of Hellenic (since
it's after Alexander)?
Trivial nitpick. Stray bit of stored high school RNA.
Random thought: Wonder if Trey Parker has caught any flak yet over
the Dreidl Song in last week's South Park? (I think he deserves to.
Portraying Moses as a crystalline entity from "This Island Earth" was
marginal, but last week he was over the line -- in my personal
aesthetics, anyway.)
---
Lenny Bailes |len...@slip.net| http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~lennyb
Doug Wickstrom
excited the ether to say:
>In <384C398E...@webnexus.com> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> wrote:
>: Loren MacGregor wrote:
>:> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
>:> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
>: It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
>: solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
>It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
Romans, Gary? Seleucid Greeks, surely. Romans were involved, to
be sure, but only in that they were keeping Antiochus IV very
busy elsewhere. Hiring Hannibal as a military advisor was
probably about the second biggest mistake Antiochus could have
made, it being a red flag in the face of the Roman bull. The
biggest mistake, of course, was attacking Roman allies in the
first place.
>and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared miracle of
>the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
>
>But you probably know that. (It's also not really one of the major Jewish
>holidays, but c'est la vie.)
I think you're being twitted on the anniversary of your rant.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"We're working on getting rid of unnecesary regulations and making them more
sensible." --Bill Clinton
Loren MacGregor
I'll note that the section after "Loren MacGregor wrote," which
seems to have me saying, "This reminds me: no one wished us all a
Happy Hannukah this year (this is the fourth evening, tonight); I
wonder why? :-)" was actually written by Gary, and misattributed.
-- LJM
James Nicoll
>: Loren MacGregor wrote:
>:> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
>:> > the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
>: It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
>: solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
>It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
>the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
Honest question: there was a successful revolt against the Romans?
I thought, a brief pause during and after a Roman civil war excepted, they
held the region until the Byzantines started losing territory.
[Yes, I count the Byzantines as the Roman Empire. The Empire
survived until the 15th century as far as I am concerned]
James Nicoll
--
Jason Stokes
wrote:
>True, but I like it. It's one of the few occasions where a) the Jews fought
>back, and b) won. For a while, at least.
Of course we must exclude the stupendous (and mythical) genocidal
slaughters of say, Numbers and Samuel...
--
Jason Stokes: js...@bluedog.apana.org.au
Avedon Carol
<r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 6 Dec 1999 20:18:56 GMT, Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
>>the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
>After all the aggravation last year, this is an expression I will
>never use again.
Let's try this instead:
TRUCE
a xmas song by Tom Robinson
Truce... call a truce ...
Stop all the firing and the fighting
Christmas morning, 1914
What would the Good Lord say?
Truce ... let's all have a truce ...
Stop all the shelling and the shooting
Frohliche Weihnact..Kamerad..Freundschaft
Let's all be friends for a day.
In the man-made hell
In the putrescent smell
In the mines and mud and trenches
The men from the Rhine crossed over the line
For a truce ... with the Tommies and the Frenchies.
But the very next day there were hand grenades
There was gunfire, gassing and slaughter
As we blasted the Hun to Kingdom Come
With machine guns, shelling and mortars
Well it was nice to pretend
We could love our fellow men
With the Christmas angels calling
But the dream turned sour in a matter of hours
And we made it all up in the morning.
Truce ... call a truce...
Stop all the bitching and back-biting
Who'd leave their lover or send in the bailiffs
This one day of the year?
Truce... let's call a truce...
Stop all the sackings and the stealing
Who'd rape a schoolgirl, or cut off someone's pension
And spoil all this Christmas cheer?
There's a couple of days when all the bashers of gays
Who all press and arrest and charge us
All leave us alone to return back home
For a truce..with our mothers and our fathers
But the very next day it's back to the fray
And setting our homes in order
Bashing lesbian mothers and under-age lovers
Disowning gay sons and daughters
Well it's quaint to pretend
We could all live as friends
With the Christmas angels calling
But the dream turns sour in a matter of hours
And they make it all up in the morning.
jsta...@ymail.yu.edu
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk wrote:
> In article <8E95ABB...@207.237.128.168>
> p...@panix.com "P Nielsen Hayden" writes:
>
> > J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote in <944596...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>:
> >
> > >In article <8E95809...@207.237.128.168>
> > > p...@panix.com "P Nielsen Hayden" writes:
> > >
> > >> Rome doesn't really show up much in the Hebrew scriptures; it's really
> > >> more of a preoccupation of Christians.
> > >
> > >Not even what happened in 70 and the destruction of the temple? I'd have
> > >thought that was a significant event?
> >
> > Surely. But that isn't in the twenty-four books of the Hebrew Bible, which
> > is what I meant.
For that matter, neither are the Greeks, and the whole story of Chanukah.
The Jewish Bible only covers the historical period up to about the first
generation after the building of the 2nd Temple. The Romans do get a good
amount of coverage in later writings such as the Talmud, so you could
certainly say they were a Jewish preoccupation. The Diaspora of the past
two millennia is always linked to the Romans in Jewish thought.
> But isn't there a festival commemorating it?
Yes, Tisha B'av, the annual day of mourning for all the major and minor
tragedies of Jewish history, foremost among the the destruction of the
1st and 2nd temples. (If you'll look at a book of kinnos, the special
laments read in that day's prayer service, you'll see a good illustration
of "preoccupation with Rome.")
Speaking of Tisha B'av, which is of course a fast day, let me wish an
easy fast to anyone who will be observing Ramadan. (Also a happy Rosh
Chodesh. Anything else?)
> The evidence I have for this, which I may have got entirely confused,
> is a story about Napoleon going past a synagogue where the Jews
> were wailing, and he asked why and they said because of the destruction
> of the temple. Then he said he'd go and redress this wrong, until he
> was told it happened 1730 years ago, whereupon he said that surely it
> will be rebuilt one day as they've remembered it so long.
I've heard this story several times; I'm curious to know where you heard
it.
--
Julie Stampnitzky
Rehovot, Israel
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Janice Gelb
>The origins of the Feast of Dedication or the Festival of Lights go back
>farther than the time of the Maccabbeean rebellion. The 25th of Kislev
>(the first day of Hannukah) used to be the time of inducting new priests
>into the priesthood, and the initiation process lasted for the next seven
>days. I think the dedication of the foundation stone of the Temple was
>also involved, along with the lighting of the (seven-candled) menorah. It
>wouldn't surprise me a bit to find that there was a solstice/renewal
>element involved in the ultimate origins of the holiday.
>
Could you provide a source for this? It's news to me.
Thanks!
jsta...@ymail.yu.edu
av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
> In article <82h5ng$3ae$2...@news.panix.com>, Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year
> > (this is the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
It must be because of the current low volume of messages. ;-)
> Silly Gary. Hanukah isn't till the 25th.
Of course, but today's already the 29th, you know. <Looks out the
window.> Well, the 30th as soon as the sun sets. Which reminds me that I
must go home now and light my menorah. Happy Chanukah!
jsta...@ymail.yu.edu
>It's the morning of the 29th here, so I'm wondering where you are.
I'm in Israel, seven hours ahead of New York. Or else I'm in a time warp.
(Speaking of locations, where is Smofcon being held?)
If anyone is bothered by being wished a Happy Chanukah out of season, I
suggest that they move here, where everyone knows when it occurs. No one
will wish you a Merry Christmas unless they already know that you
celebrate that holiday, and you can go downtown and not see any tinsel in
the windows. Lots of menorahs instead. And jelly donuts.
(*lightbulb* Ah, that must be what the columnist in "Ha'aretz" meant when
he wrote about preserving the Jewish character of the state. Hmmm.)
John Richards
>
> On 7 Dec 1999 18:46:55 GMT, jan...@marvin.eng.sun.com (Janice
> Gelb) found stone tablets, which when translated read:
>
> >Jonathan Sachs is correct: it was against the Greeks. Besides
> >the military victory, Chanukah is also celebrated as defiance
> >against the Hellenization of Jewish culture at the time.
>
> Or as a rabbi once told me: "Most Jewish holidays can be
> described as 'they tried to kill us, it didn't work, let's eat.'"
>
This was more or less the burden of Rabbi Sachs's talk. His comments
were built around the fact that Chanukah was a home based celebration
and that Judahism is a home, or family, based religion. He did make
pains to move it out of the kitchen though.
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
jsta...@ymail.yu.edu
grid...@mindspring.com (Doug Berry) wrote:
> Or as a rabbi once told me: "Most Jewish holidays can be
> described as 'they tried to kill us, it didn't work, let's eat.'"
They can? Let me see...
Well, that's an excellent synopsis of Purim, and a passable one for
Pesach. It has nothing to do with Shavuos, Rosh Hashana, Sukkos, or
Simchas Torah. What else is there? Oh yes, Tisha B'av et al. "They tried
to kill us, it almost worked, let's *not* eat."
But I think it's off base with respect to Chanukah. Chanukah is observed
to commemorate an attack on Jewish spiritual rather than physical well-
being. Compare the paragraph following "al hanissim" which is recited on
Chanukah to the one recited on Purim:
"In the days of Mattityahu Hashmonai the high priest and his sons, when
the Greek kingdom arose against your nation Israel in order to cause them
to forget your Torah and to discard the statutes..."
"In the days of Mordechai and Esther in Shushan the capital, when the
wicked Haman arose against them and sought to destroy, murder, and
eradicate all the Jews, young and old..."
And unlike Purim and Pesach, there isn't an actual mitzvah to eat
anything on Chanukah. (But on the other hand, it is forbidden to fast, as
is true of all festivals, and of Shabbos. There is certainly a "Let's
eat" aspect in Judaism.)
Samuel Paik
> : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
> and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared miracle of
> the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
>
> holidays, but c'est la vie.)
Actually I didn't. I haven't put any real effort in learning Jewish customs
and such. I've probably picked up quite a bit through osmosis though...
Thanks
--
Samuel S. Paik | http://www.webnexus.com/users/paik/
3D and multimedia, architecture and implementation
Solyent Green is kitniyos!
Samuel Paik
> : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
> : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
>
> It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
> and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared miracle of
> the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
Does this mean that there is no Jewish winter solstice event?
Doug Berry
<jo...@panorama.panorama.com> found stone tablets, which when
translated read:
>Doug Berry wrote:
>> Or as a rabbi once told me: "Most Jewish holidays can be
>> described as 'they tried to kill us, it didn't work, let's eat.'"
>
>This was more or less the burden of Rabbi Sachs's talk. His comments
>were built around the fact that Chanukah was a home based celebration
>and that Judahism is a home, or family, based religion. He did make
>pains to move it out of the kitchen though.
Which is one of the things that prompted my mother-in-law to
convert. She said that she felt at home and among friends,
rather than being lectured to and being passive.
Doug Berry
read:
>True, but I like it. It's one of the few occasions where a) the Jews fought
>back, and b) won. For a while, at least.
At a dinner the other night, I told my half-brother-in-law who is
six, about the Warsaw ghetto uprising. While he didn't get all
of the story, he thought it was cool that they did it. He then
went back to playing with the Pokemon cards I had given him.
Gary Farber
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: See my other post. Gary misspoke; the revolt in Maccebees happened before
: there was a Roman Empire, and was against Hellenic (or at least Hellenized)
: overlords in the backwash of Alexander's failed empire.
Right. It was anti-Hellenic, in this timeline. I mean, yes, it was
always anti-Hellenic. I have always been here. That has always been the
correct answer. It was never a revolt against the Romans, in any other,
er, place. I, uh, misspoke. That's it.
So, how about how the W. did in the debate for election as Caesar? Funny
that he couldn't say anything about what Dean Acheson did for the Fourth
Empire, after reading PRESENT AT THE CREATION, eh? Still, I wonder if all
those years in the Praetorian Guard will do Senator McCain as much
political good as some think.
(Please forgive any other misspeaking I do; I confuse easily when I've not
had enough coffee.)
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; For Hire as: Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; Northeast US
Gary Farber
Elisabeth Carey <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
: Doug Berry wrote:
:>
:> On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 18:23:40 -0500, Elisabeth Carey
:> <lis....@mediaone.net> found stone tablets, which when
:> translated read:
:>
:> >I reserve expressions of "Happy Hannukah" for arenas where I have some
:> >reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
:> >flamewar, Gary.
:>
:> I have a personal rule: Never turn down a honest expression of
:> well-wishing. Served me well all my life.
: Now, if only we can convince Gary...
It's interesting how people remember things. I went back to the original
discussion, via www.deja.com. to check my memory of how that discussion
went, and my memory was, for once, correct. Kelly Lockhart posted a
well-intentioned "Seasonal Greeting" on December 24, 1996, which included
"Happy Chanukah!" (see
<http://x39.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=205859314&search=thread&CONTEXT=944666175.1886715953&HIT_CONTEXT=944666100.1885798504&HIT_NUM=6&hitnum=67>;
Zev Sero politely pointed out "Which ended nearly two weeks ago." That
was his entire comment. Nothing rude there.
Kelly responded "And your point? Or are you just nitpicking?" Others
made innocuous remarks.
Then Zev replied "My point is, why wish Happy Chanukah now, except to
imply a spurious link with the current holiday? Would you wish someone a
happy solstice at Arisia? Or a happy 4-July at Readercon?"
To which Kelly replied "From my question, I see you answered in the
latter. Lighten up - can't you see that the whole post was a well-meaning
joke? Sheesh...."
After which Jim Trash accused Zev of dire insult, Janice Gelb and Ulrika
O'Brien defended Zev, and the whole megillah began.
I didn't get into it quite late, well after many messages back and forth
had gone on. And I never, ever, ever, said anything rejecting a pleasant
holiday wish.
No matter what rasseff legend may say.
(<http://x39.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/viewthread.xp?AN=212437083&search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&ST=PS&CONTEXT=944666100.1885798504&HIT_CONTEXT=944666100.1885798504&HIT_NUM=6&recnum=%3c5ch5mn$r...@panix2.panix.com%3e%231/1&group=alt.fandom.cons&frpage=getd
oc> may be helpful here, though you have to pick out the dates by eye;
there's doubtless a more direct way to get deja to show the thread by
date, but there's only so much time I care to invest in this.)
Evelyn C. Leeper
> In article <avram-06129...@manhattan.crossover.com>,
> av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
> > In article <82h5ng$3ae$2...@news.panix.com>, Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year
> > > (this is the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>
> It must be because of the current low volume of messages. ;-)
>
> > Silly Gary. Hanukah isn't till the 25th.
>
> Of course, but today's already the 29th, you know. <Looks out the
> window.> Well, the 30th as soon as the sun sets. Which reminds me that I
> must go home now and light my menorah. Happy Chanukah!
It's the morning of the 29th here, so I'm wondering where you are.
In any case, I've noted that Christmas comes late this year. :-)
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://www.geocities.com/evelynleeper
In times of great stress, it is a relief to have the assurance that I can
never falsely believe that I exist.
Gary Farber
: On Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:39:08 -0600, "Beth Friedman"
: <b...@wavefront.com> found stone tablets, which when translated
: read:
:>True, but I like it. It's one of the few occasions where a) the Jews fought
:>back, and b) won. For a while, at least.
: At a dinner the other night, I told my half-brother-in-law who is
: six, about the Warsaw ghetto uprising. While he didn't get all
: of the story, he thought it was cool that they did it. He then
: went back to playing with the Pokemon cards I had given him.
Perhaps if we had little capsules from which we could release the Jews
with the special super powers to fight against the persecutors:
"Moshedayanachu, I choose you!"
(Of course, Warsaw eventually met "a" above, but hardly "b.")
Doug Berry
stone tablets, which when translated read:
>Perhaps if we had little capsules from which we could release the Jews
>with the special super powers to fight against the persecutors:
>"Moshedayanachu, I choose you!"
Damnit Gary! I had a mouthful of Coke when I read that message.
Now I need to get a towel, and a new keyboard...
Doug Berry
<low...@world.std.com> found stone tablets, which when translated
read:
>[1] A couple of year ago, I was speaking with someone who wrapped
>Hanukkah with Christmas on the basis that "they're both holidays of
>peace." I Am Not Making This Up.
Did you correct this person?
James Nicoll
Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <3853611d...@news.mindspring.com> Doug Berry
><grid...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>: On Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:39:08 -0600, "Beth Friedman"
>: read:
>
>:>True, but I like it. It's one of the few occasions where a) the Jews fought
>:>back, and b) won. For a while, at least.
>
>: At a dinner the other night, I told my half-brother-in-law who is
>: six, about the Warsaw ghetto uprising. While he didn't get all
>: of the story, he thought it was cool that they did it. He then
>: went back to playing with the Pokemon cards I had given him.
>
>with the special super powers to fight against the persecutors:
>"Moshedayanachu, I choose you!"
I feel much less horrible about the chain of thought seeing
the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Pokemon so close together started.
--
Kevin J. Maroney
>Random thought: Wonder if Trey Parker has caught any flak yet over
>the Dreidl Song in last week's South Park? (I think he deserves to.
>Portraying Moses as a crystalline entity from "This Island Earth" was
>marginal, but last week he was over the line -- in my personal
>aesthetics, anyway.)
Portraying Moses as *what*? He was *obviously* MCP from _Tron_!
--
Kevin Maroney | kmar...@crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com
Kevin J. Maroney
>On Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:39:08 -0600, Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com>
>wrote:
>
>>True, but I like it. It's one of the few occasions where a) the Jews fought
>>back, and b) won. For a while, at least.
>
>Of course we must exclude the stupendous (and mythical) genocidal
>slaughters of say, Numbers and Samuel...
She did say "fought *back*" (emphasis added).
Janice Gelb
>In <384DA49A...@mediaone.net>
>Elisabeth Carey <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
>: Doug Berry wrote:
>:>
>:> On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 18:23:40 -0500, Elisabeth Carey
>:> translated read:
>:>
>:> >reasonable basis for believing it won't be turned into an excuse for a
>:> >flamewar, Gary.
>:>
>:> I have a personal rule: Never turn down a honest expression of
>:> well-wishing. Served me well all my life.
>
>: Now, if only we can convince Gary...
>
>It's interesting how people remember things. I went back to the original
>discussion, via www.deja.com. to check my memory of how that discussion
>went, and my memory was, for once, correct.
And if you hadn't posted the message lately about wondering why
no one had posted a Happy Chanukah message, we wouldn't have
had to revisit this unpleasant history at all.
Jo Walton
It just came up in conversation, I'm afraid.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Interstichia; Poetry; RASFW FAQ; etc.
Jo Walton
> It's interesting how people remember things. I went back to the original
> discussion, via www.deja.com.
Oh I wish it could be Christmas every day
with relentless ghastly songs the merchants play
with the cold rain hurtling down
and the shops all packed in town
let the tills ring loud for Christmas!
Oh I wish it could be Christmas every day
with the coals raked over what the people say
with good wishes turned to spite
reposted every night
let the flames roar high for Christmas!
Oh I wish that Christmas would just go away
though I like it when it gets to Christmas day
and it could all be more fun
for each and every one
if this thread dies out for Christmas!
Gary Farber
Janice Gelb <jan...@marvin.eng.sun.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: And if you hadn't posted the message lately about wondering why
: had to revisit this unpleasant history at all.
My most helpful suggestion is that if you don't wish to see it discussed,
don't discuss it.
Happy Chanukah. Season's greetings.
Gary Farber
: On 8 Dec 1999 16:51:26 GMT, Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> found
: stone tablets, which when translated read:
:>Perhaps if we had little capsules from which we could release the Jews
:>with the special super powers to fight against the persecutors:
:>"Moshedayanachu, I choose you!"
: Damnit Gary! I had a mouthful of Coke when I read that message.
: Now I need to get a towel, and a new keyboard...
And he'd look so *cute* with his little eye-patch.
But there would be so many adorable ones: the little round Meirtyle, who,
like all Jewkemon, would repeat her name over and over. "Meirtyle.
Meirtyle. Meirtyle."
I don't think the little bald Beginowth would be a big seller, though.
Evelyn C. Leeper
Avedon Carol <ave...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08 Dec 1999 10:06:13 -0500, Lowell Gilbert <low...@world.std.com>
>
> >I really do try not to take umbrage over these things, because by and
> >large the thoughts being expressed are just generic good wishes and
> >don't even have anything to do with Christmas or solstice except that
> >it's customary to express them at this time of year. But on the other
> >hand, I don't think people who take their religion somewhat more
> >seriously are unreasonable in taking offense at having it
> >misrepresented. If you're going to wish someone a Merry Christmas,
> >don't bother to call it Hanukkah.
>
> This is why I think "Happy Solstice" is such a great holiday greeting.
> It essentially means, "The weather is crap, so I wish you pretty
> colored lights and some good parties to brighten the darkest day of
> the year." You don't have to have faith in anything, or an ethnic
> heritage or something like that -- it _is_ the winter Solstice, it
> _is_ the shortest day of the year, and party lights and people being
> cheery and friendly makes it more tolerable.
Unless you're talking about the Northern Lights, I don't see that the
Solstice implies anything about colored lights.
(And of course, little of what you said applies in Australia et al.)
Avedon Carol
wrote:
>I really do try not to take umbrage over these things, because by and
>large the thoughts being expressed are just generic good wishes and
>don't even have anything to do with Christmas or solstice except that
>it's customary to express them at this time of year. But on the other
>hand, I don't think people who take their religion somewhat more
>seriously are unreasonable in taking offense at having it
>misrepresented. If you're going to wish someone a Merry Christmas,
>don't bother to call it Hanukkah.
This is why I think "Happy Solstice" is such a great holiday greeting.
It essentially means, "The weather is crap, so I wish you pretty
colored lights and some good parties to brighten the darkest day of
the year." You don't have to have faith in anything, or an ethnic
heritage or something like that -- it _is_ the winter Solstice, it
_is_ the shortest day of the year, and party lights and people being
cheery and friendly makes it more tolerable.
Here, have some punch.
Avram Grumer
> Random thought: Wonder if Trey Parker has caught any flak yet over
> the Dreidl Song in last week's South Park? (I think he deserves to.
> Portraying Moses as a crystalline entity from "This Island Earth"...
I thought it was the Master Control Program from _Tron_. Perhaps the
MCP's appearance was inspired by _This Island Earth_, so we could both be
right.
> ...was marginal, but last week he was over the line -- in my
> personal aesthetics, anyway.)
What's your objection to it? Sure, Cartman's remarks were offensive to
Jews, but Cartman's remarks are usually offensive to whoever he's talking
about. That's part of the point of the character.
--
Avram Grumer | Any sufficiently advanced
Home: av...@bigfoot.com | technology is indistinguishable
http://www.PigsAndFishes.org | from an error message.
Avram Grumer
jan...@marvin.eng.sun.com wrote:
> In article 07129917...@manhattan.crossover.com, av...@bigfoot.com
(Avram Grumer) writes:
>
> >The origins of the Feast of Dedication or the Festival of Lights go back
> >farther than the time of the Maccabbeean rebellion. The 25th of Kislev
> >(the first day of Hannukah) used to be the time of inducting new priests
> >into the priesthood, and the initiation process lasted for the next seven
> >days. I think the dedication of the foundation stone of the Temple was
> >also involved, along with the lighting of the (seven-candled) menorah. It
> >wouldn't surprise me a bit to find that there was a solstice/renewal
> >element involved in the ultimate origins of the holiday.
> >
>
> Could you provide a source for this? It's news to me.
http://members.tripod.com/~kkuehl/Feast.html
More later if I can find it. I haven't had time to stop at the library
and check the _Encyclopedia Judaica_.
Avram Grumer
Gilbert <low...@world.std.com> wrote:
> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> writes:
>
> > Gary Farber wrote:
> > > : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
> > > : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
> > >
> > > It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against
> > > the Romans, and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and
> > > the declared miracle of the oil for the lamp lasting eight days,
> > > actually.
> >
> > Does this mean that there is no Jewish winter solstice event?
>
> No, speaking pedantically, it just means that Hanukkah isn't it. To
> answer the actual question, though, there *isn't* any solstice
> celebration in the Jewish calendar, because that calendar has no
> direct ties at all to the solar year. Which leads directly to why I
> *am* somewhat offended by people wishing me a Happy Hanukkah weeks
> late: Hanukkah is *not* a Jewish Christmas, or a Jewish Yule, or
> anything of the sort. [1]
>
> Metaphor time:
> Wrapping Hanukkah in with solstice events is kind of like wrapping Guy
> Fawkes' day in with Thanksgiving and Oktoberfest as equinox events.
> It makes no sense, and shows that the speaker is following the form
> but not the spirit of inclusiveness. [Yes, I know that none of the
> above -- with the exception, typically, of Oktoberfest -- actually
> fall on the equinox. That's part of the point.]
Isn't it also sort of like wrapping Christmas and Easter in with solar
events? If they're just supposed to be celebrations of the birth and
resurrection of Christ, then it's just a coincidence that they happens to
fall around these particular yearly times.
It's also no doubt a complete coincidence that there's a legend mentioned
in the Babylonian Talmud (Avoda Zara 8a) that holds that when Adam first
saw the days shortening and getting colder he thought the world was dying
and fasted and prayed for eight days. When the sun started rising earlier
again, he realized that this was just the way of the world, and
celebreated with eights days of feasting.
Andrew Plotkin
> On 08 Dec 1999 10:06:13 -0500, Lowell Gilbert <low...@world.std.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I really do try not to take umbrage over these things, because by and
>>large the thoughts being expressed are just generic good wishes and
>>don't even have anything to do with Christmas or solstice except that
>>it's customary to express them at this time of year. But on the other
>>hand, I don't think people who take their religion somewhat more
>>seriously are unreasonable in taking offense at having it
>>misrepresented. If you're going to wish someone a Merry Christmas,
>>don't bother to call it Hanukkah.
>
> This is why I think "Happy Solstice" is such a great holiday greeting.
> It essentially means, "The weather is crap, so I wish you pretty
> colored lights and some good parties to brighten the darkest day of
> the year."
One of the debts I owe to Lois McMaster Bujold is the term "Winterfair",
which applies perfectly well to any festivities that happen around
midwinter. Happy Winterfair.
> Here, have some punch.
Thankee.
I've got some macaroons around here somewhere. There we go.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
James Nicoll
>It essentially means, "The weather is crap, so I wish you pretty
>colored lights and some good parties to brighten the darkest day of
>heritage or something like that -- it _is_ the winter Solstice, it
>_is_ the shortest day of the year, and party lights and people being
>cheery and friendly makes it more tolerable.
I am utterly shocked and horrifed at this Earthist chauvanism.
Veiwing With Alarm,
James Nicoll
--
Dave Weingart
>But there would be so many adorable ones: the little round Meirtyle, who,
>like all Jewkemon, would repeat her name over and over. "Meirtyle.
>Meirtyle. Meirtyle."
>
>I don't think the little bald Beginowth would be a big seller, though.
The real problem is that you can't battle them on Saturdays.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK O, what can ail thee, geek-at-arms
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Alone and slowly telnetting?
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux The net has crumbled from the load
And no hosts ping
Irv Koch
> This is why I think "Happy Solstice" is such a great holiday greeting.
> cheery and friendly makes it more tolerable.
>
If you've got some without sugar. It is my birthday (Dec 21 or First
Light of Chanukah) after all <G>.
Kip Williams
> Random thought: Wonder if Trey Parker has caught any flak yet over
> the Dreidl Song in last week's South Park?
Considering the other numbers in the show, I don't think the Dreidl Song
is really what will offend people. I shan't spoil anything for those who
can't see it for a while, but the title of the middle number is
'Christmas in Hell,' and it not only has a great tune, but also really
packs in that stuff that makes people hot under the collar.
Never mind the flak: I'm surprised nobody's called a hit on the talented
Matt and Trey.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Kip Williams
>
> > This is why I think "Happy Solstice" is such a great holiday greeting.
> > colored lights and some good parties to brighten the darkest day of
> > the year." You don't have to have faith in anything, or an ethnic
> > heritage or something like that -- it _is_ the winter Solstice, it
> > _is_ the shortest day of the year, and party lights and people being
>
> Solstice implies anything about colored lights.
>
> (And of course, little of what you said applies in Australia et al.)
Here in the States, when the solstice aproaches, people put up lots of
colored lights. I don't think they say "here comes the solstice, let's
put up lights," but nonetheless, the two seem to go together. Has to do
with Christmas, they tell me.
Maybe you could introduce the practice in Australia and be the first.
People would regard you with the same cheerful suspicion as they did the
first trick-or-treaters there.
(I thought you got the Aurora Australis down there. Were you just using
"Northern Lights" for the benefit of all us Northerners? Thanks, if so.)
Kip Williams
>
> In <8E9585C...@207.237.128.168>
> P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
> [. . .]
> : See my other post. Gary misspoke; the revolt in Maccebees happened before
> : there was a Roman Empire, and was against Hellenic (or at least Hellenized)
> : overlords in the backwash of Alexander's failed empire.
>
> Right. It was anti-Hellenic, in this timeline. I mean, yes, it was
> always anti-Hellenic. I have always been here. That has always been the
> correct answer. It was never a revolt against the Romans, in any other,
> er, place. I, uh, misspoke. That's it.
>
> So, how about how the W. did in the debate for election as Caesar? Funny
> that he couldn't say anything about what Dean Acheson did for the Fourth
> Empire, after reading PRESENT AT THE CREATION, eh? Still, I wonder if all
> those years in the Praetorian Guard will do Senator McCain as much
> political good as some think.
>
> (Please forgive any other misspeaking I do; I confuse easily when I've not
> had enough coffee.)
What is coffee?
Kip Williams
> Isn't it also sort of like wrapping Christmas and Easter in with solar
> events? If they're just supposed to be celebrations of the birth and
> resurrection of Christ, then it's just a coincidence that they happens to
> fall around these particular yearly times.
It's a tall coincidence, considering that they apparently moved Jesus'
birth date from early Spring to the middle of winter.
Janice Gelb
>
>It's also no doubt a complete coincidence that there's a legend mentioned
>in the Babylonian Talmud (Avoda Zara 8a) that holds that when Adam first
>saw the days shortening and getting colder he thought the world was dying
>and fasted and prayed for eight days. When the sun started rising earlier
>again, he realized that this was just the way of the world, and
>celebreated with eights days of feasting.
>
Interesting. I've heard this midrash before (as a matter of
fact, my rabbi used it in his speech at a shiva minyan for
my mother) but not with the "celebrated with eight days of
feasting" part at the end.
Vicki Rosenzweig
wrote:
>On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:00:06 +0000, Rob Hansen
><r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 6 Dec 1999 20:18:56 GMT, Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>This reminds me: no one wished us all a Happy Hannukah this year (this is
>>>the fourth evening, tonight); I wonder why? :-)
>>
>>After all the aggravation last year, this is an expression I will
>>never use again.
>
>Let's try this instead:
>
>TRUCE
>a xmas song by Tom Robinson
>
>Truce... call a truce ...
>Stop all the firing and the fighting
>Christmas morning, 1914
>What would the Good Lord say?
>Truce ... let's all have a truce ...
>Stop all the shelling and the shooting
>Frohliche Weihnact..Kamerad..Freundschaft
>Let's all be friends for a day.
>In the man-made hell
>In the putrescent smell
>In the mines and mud and trenches
>The men from the Rhine crossed over the line
>For a truce ... with the Tommies and the Frenchies.
><snip>
>But the very next day it's back to the fray
>And setting our homes in order
>Bashing lesbian mothers and under-age lovers
>Disowning gay sons and daughters
>Well it's quaint to pretend
>We could all live as friends
>With the Christmas angels calling
>But the dream turns sour in a matter of hours
>And they make it all up in the morning.
>
Tom Robinson is such a cheerful musician, isn't he?
I think I like "Happy Solstice" better.
We had our office holiday party this year. As far as I can tell,
what we're celebrating is "hey, there's some good food here, and
the company is paying for it." This year the main dishes were
only okay, but the desserts were very nice.
They also hand out checks to people who have completed 5, 10,
15, 20, or 25 years of employment at the company.
I had a much better time than usual, because I was able to talk
cheerfully about my recent vacation, and people were actually
interested in hearing about it--it's rare that I have something
I'm interested in talking about that works as social chat with
cow-orkers I don't socialize with much.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
"I get by with a little help from my friends." -- Lennon/McCartney
Elisabeth Carey
<snip>
> Isn't it also sort of like wrapping Christmas and Easter in with solar
> events? If they're just supposed to be celebrations of the birth and
> resurrection of Christ, then it's just a coincidence that they happens to
> fall around these particular yearly times.
Well, no, not quite a coincidence, not for Christmas. The date of
Easter is what it is, but the date of Christmas was moved. Jesus was
born in the early spring; the celebration of it was moved to coincide
with the Roman celebration of Saturnalia.
<snip>
Lis Carey
Elisabeth Carey
>
> Samuel Paik <pa...@webnexus.com> writes:
>
> > Gary Farber wrote:
> > > : It's Hannukah? Well, happy Hannukah. Or whatever your winter
> > > : solstice/rebirth of the sun celebration may be.
> > >
> > > It commemorates the successful rising of the Maccabees against the Romans,
> > > and the recovery of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the declared miracle of
> > > the oil for the lamp lasting eight days, actually.
> >
> > Does this mean that there is no Jewish winter solstice event?
>
> No, speaking pedantically, it just means that Hanukkah isn't it. To
> answer the actual question, though, there *isn't* any solstice
> celebration in the Jewish calendar, because that calendar has no
> direct ties at all to the solar year. Which leads directly to why I
> *am* somewhat offended by people wishing me a Happy Hanukkah weeks
> late: Hanukkah is *not* a Jewish Christmas, or a Jewish Yule, or
> anything of the sort. [1]
>
> Metaphor time:
> Wrapping Hanukkah in with solstice events is kind of like wrapping Guy
> Fawkes' day in with Thanksgiving and Oktoberfest as equinox events.
> It makes no sense, and shows that the speaker is following the form
> but not the spirit of inclusiveness. [Yes, I know that none of the
> above -- with the exception, typically, of Oktoberfest -- actually
> fall on the equinox. That's part of the point.]
Um, no, what it means is that they're moved by the spirit of
inclusiveness, while not having as much knowledge of your religion as
you think appropriate.
> Of course, the Jewish calendar isn't *nearly* as confusing to
> outsiders as the Islamic calendar. At least Jewish holidays don't
> vary much more than a month in how they fall on the Gregorian
> calendar.
But they do vary, which means that, for people for whom they are
important only insofar as they matter to other people whom they know,
and are not important _in themselves_, those holidays are hard to pin
down precisely. A sincere desire to wish people well on their holidays
doesn't always match up with full knowledge of the significance and
timing of the holiday. And, startling as you may find the idea, this
cuts in all directions.
> I really do try not to take umbrage over these things, because by and
> large the thoughts being expressed are just generic good wishes and
> don't even have anything to do with Christmas or solstice except that
> it's customary to express them at this time of year. But on the other
> hand, I don't think people who take their religion somewhat more
> seriously are unreasonable in taking offense at having it
> misrepresented. If you're going to wish someone a Merry Christmas,
> don't bother to call it Hanukkah.
I think anyone who takes offense at sincerely intended good wishes is
an ass.
The evening after work I had a meeting with my broker. After the
meeting, as he was seeing me out of the office, he said to me, "Happy
Ha -- ah -- Holidays!"
> Be well.
>
> [1] A couple of year ago, I was speaking with someone who wrapped
> Hanukkah with Christmas on the basis that "they're both holidays of
> peace." I Am Not Making This Up.
Yah, and your point is? I've spoken with quite a few Jews who think
that Christmas is the most important Christian religious holiday. I Am
Not Making This Up.
Lis Carey
Arwel Parry
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <82lvg8$f7i$1...@news.panix.com> gfa...@panix.com "Gary Farber" writes:
>
>> It's interesting how people remember things. I went back to the original
>> discussion, via www.deja.com.
>
>Oh I wish it could be Christmas every day
>with relentless ghastly songs the merchants play
>with the cold rain hurtling down
>and the shops all packed in town
>let the tills ring loud for Christmas!
>
>Oh I wish it could be Christmas every day
>with the coals raked over what the people say
>with good wishes turned to spite
>reposted every night
>let the flames roar high for Christmas!
>
>Oh I wish that Christmas would just go away
>though I like it when it gets to Christmas day
>and it could all be more fun
>for each and every one
>if this thread dies out for Christmas!
Oh, it's got a good two weeks of life to it yet! :-)
Nice lyrics, but can you sing it to the tune of Auld Lang Syne?
I had a dose of pre-Christmas panic (3 weeks to go and no presents
bought yet!) last weekend, so I went to the Trafford Centre to see what
the stores have on offer. Bad idea. It looked as if the entire
population of the north of England had the same idea. If I ever get that
idea again, someone please stop me. Leaving the place at quarter past
six, the shuttle bus to the tram station (loaded to the gunnels with
passengers in sardine mode) took over an hour just to get out of the car
park!
Christmas? Bah, humbug!
--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/
Rich McAllister K6RFM
> Jesus was born in the early spring;
What's your rationale for thinking so? (Not that I think the Winter
Solstice has any rationale either, I just don't know of
any evidence at all that points to any time of the year.)
Rich
Laura Burchard
The shepherds in the fields bit. The only time that shepherds would be
spending nights in the fields with their sheep would be at lambing time --
early spring.
Laura
--
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
Rachael Lininger
>There is certainly a "Let's eat" aspect in Judaism.
Which is quite one of the nicest things I've heard of any religion.
Rachael
--
Rachael Lininger | "It's good to know an assassin
lininger@ | you can hire with a can of tuna fish."
chem.wisc.edu | --Rocco da Mallet
Lenny Bailes
>
> In article <384DAD...@slip.net>, len...@slip.net wrote:
>
> > Random thought: Wonder if Trey Parker has caught any flak yet over
> > Portraying Moses as a crystalline entity from "This Island Earth"...
>
> I thought it was the Master Control Program from _Tron_. Perhaps the
> MCP's appearance was inspired by _This Island Earth_, so we could both be
> right.
>
> > ...was marginal, but last week he was over the line -- in my
> > personal aesthetics, anyway.)
>
> What's your objection to it? Sure, Cartman's remarks were offensive to
> Jews, but Cartman's remarks are usually offensive to whoever he's talking
>
There's a tricky essay to be written in response to this -- in re writing
a character that's an established bigot, having the character broadcast least-common
-denominator racism or ethnic slurs and trying to have it both ways with the audience.
("The character is a bigot, certainly _I_ don't believe the things I put into his
mouth. It's just the character, not me. But hey, these slurs are really funny!)
To me it's a question of when artistic license turns into gratuitous ugliness.
Who's really being mocked? The character or the target(s) of
the character's remarks?
FWIW: I think Comedy Central's Upright Citizen's Brigade did a pretty good
job of dealing with this issue in a recent sketch. The bigotry in the character's
dialog was insulting, mean, and realistic. But the theatre in which the dialog
was delivered was value-neutral, allowing viewers to draw their own conclusions
about the slice-of-life portrayal. The context of Trey Parker's Dreidl song as
a frame for Cartman's jibes had a different ambiance and affect. Sure, he takes
swipes at Christianity, too -- in other songs. But no direct insults or
categorizations of *Christians* per se. ("No sense of rhythm, "really lame,"
and so on.)
[[Lest you cite the football episode, in which Kyle is a
hero, as a rebuttal of the point I'm trying to make: it also has ambiguous
ethnic slurs. But, to me, "Hey, how about that Jewish kid?" stays within
the aesthetic "artistic license" boundary I'm trying to suggest.
The line makes a statement about the speaker within the context of the
caricature of the town.]]
FWIW: I think Parker & Stone tend to tread lightly and be more subtle about
homosexuality than religion or ethnicity-- which *may* reflect their own
internal sense of what's political correct.
South Park often appeals to my sense of the surreal. It sometimes strikes
chords with its illustrations of the way we repress cultural taboos.
But sometimes Parker strikes me as really yucky. Did you see the
Canned Ham hot tub interview? (And, this may be a low blow, but I can't help
wondering why one of the voice actors on the show committed suicide.)
---
Lenny Bailes | len...@slip.net | http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~lennyb
Rich McAllister K6RFM
> In article <xl91z8w...@shell19.ba.best.com>,
> Rich McAllister K6RFM <r...@pensfa.org> wrote:
> >Elisabeth Carey <lis....@mediaone.net> writes:
> >> Jesus was born in the early spring;
>
> >What's your rationale for thinking so? (Not that I think the Winter
> >Solstice has any rationale either, I just don't know of
> >any evidence at all that points to any time of the year.)
>
> The shepherds in the fields bit. The only time that shepherds would be
> spending nights in the fields with their sheep would be at lambing time --
> early spring.
>
We know that much about first century BC sheep husbandry in Palestine?
If the biggest threat to a sheep is lambing, ok, and that might
be true today. But predators and thieves work all year round. Didn't
they have lions around there then?
Rich
David G. Bell
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
> In article <82lvg8$f7i$1...@news.panix.com> gfa...@panix.com "Gary Farber" writes:>
> > It's interesting how people remember things. I went back to the original
> > discussion, via www.deja.com.
>
> Oh I wish it could be Christmas every day
> with relentless ghastly songs the merchants play
> with the cold rain hurtling down
> and the shops all packed in town
> let the tills ring loud for Christmas!
>
> Oh I wish it could be Christmas every day
> with the coals raked over what the people say
> with good wishes turned to spite
> reposted every night
> let the flames roar high for Christmas!
>
> Oh I wish that Christmas would just go away
> though I like it when it gets to Christmas day
> and it could all be more fun
> for each and every one
> if this thread dies out for Christmas!
RASFF Award with Filk Wizzard Cluster
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
jsta...@ymail.yu.edu
> > This is why I think "Happy Solstice" is such a great holiday
greeting.
[snip]
> (And of course, little of what you said applies in Australia et al.)
Ah, I knew we forgot something. All you folks Down Under: Have a happy
summer solstice.
-Julie
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jsta...@ymail.yu.edu
av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
> Isn't it also sort of like wrapping Christmas and Easter in with solar
> events? If they're just supposed to be celebrations of the birth and
> resurrection of Christ, then it's just a coincidence that they happens
to
> fall around these particular yearly times.
As far as Easter, you could perhaps argue that it was wrapped in with
Passover; I suspect that to the first Christians, Passover was a more
notable festival than the equinox. (Yes, of *course* Passover is already
linked to the equinox; its alternate name is "the festival of spring,"
after all.)
--
Julie Stampnitzky
Rehovot, Israel
Kip Williams
> We had our office holiday party this year. As far as I can tell,
> what we're celebrating is "hey, there's some good food here, and
> the company is paying for it." This year the main dishes were
> only okay, but the desserts were very nice.
>
> They also hand out checks to people who have completed 5, 10,
> 15, 20, or 25 years of employment at the company.
No party for us this year. They couldn't bring themselves to pay for the
same room we had last year, and it was too late by the time they became
decisive. We have the option of going to one for just the Hampton
location, and pay $7 or $10 for the privilege or eating or dancing.
I was watching a TV show where they had ways to stay out of a higher tax
bracket. You could, they said, defer income until next year; like your
Christmas bonus. A bonus of five thousand dollars, deferred until after
January 1, will keep you out of that next bracket.
They didn't say how much I could have saved by having my employer defer
the coupon we get every year for a discount on a fresh-cut or live
Christmas tree. It goes up the longer you've been there, reaching the
price of a decent-sized tree after about five years. I've been there
nine. I don't need another pine in the yard, and I don't really want one
killed on my account. One year I tried to get some use from my coupon by
crumpling it into a ball for one of the cats to play with, but they
didn't go for it much.
Julie Stampnitzky
av...@bigfoot.com (Avram Grumer) wrote:
> The origins of the Feast of Dedication or the Festival of Lights go
back
> farther than the time of the Maccabbeean rebellion. The 25th of
Kislev
> (the first day of Hannukah) used to be the time of inducting new
priests
> into the priesthood, and the initiation process lasted for the next
seven
> days. I think the dedication of the foundation stone of the Temple
was
> also involved, along with the lighting of the (seven-candled) menorah.
To clarify: the events you refer to occurred when the 2nd Temple was
built and dedicated following the return from the Babylonian exile. It
was a one-time event, not an annual one. (But the menorah with seven oil
lamps was lit in the Temple every day, actually.)
The association of "dedication" with the 25th of Kislev goes back even
further, though. When the Jews were in the desert and built the
tabernacle, the construction was completed on the 25th of Kislev, but it
wasn't dedicated until three months later, at the beginning of Nisan.
(Hence destiny "owed" a dedication festival to the neglected date.)
This all ties in with an important concept in Jewish thought, namely
that the various dates have their own characteristics, and that events
appropriate to their characters are likely to occur repeatedly on such
dates. For example, the 9th of Av is an inauspicious date for the Jewish
people.
Jonathan Guthrie
> In article <3852a05e....@usenet.free-online.net>,
> Avedon Carol <ave...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> This is why I think "Happy Solstice" is such a great holiday greeting.
>> colored lights and some good parties to brighten the darkest day of
>> the year." You don't have to have faith in anything, or an ethnic
>> heritage or something like that -- it _is_ the winter Solstice, it
>> _is_ the shortest day of the year, and party lights and people being
>> cheery and friendly makes it more tolerable.
> Unless you're talking about the Northern Lights, I don't see that the
> Solstice implies anything about colored lights.
> (And of course, little of what you said applies in Australia et al.)
Here, have some more punch!
--
Jonathan Guthrie (jgut...@brokersys.com)
Brokersys +281-895-8101 http://www.brokersys.com/
12703 Veterans Memorial #106, Houston, TX 77014, USA
Jonathan Guthrie
>> Jesus was born in the early spring;
> What's your rationale for thinking so? (Not that I think the Winter
> Solstice has any rationale either, I just don't know of
> any evidence at all that points to any time of the year.)
Luke 2:8
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping
watch over their flock by night.
The only time that shepherds do that is in the spring, during lambing.
Gary Farber
[. . .]
: Here in the States, when the solstice aproaches, people put up lots of
: colored lights. I don't think they say "here comes the solstice, let's
: put up lights," but nonetheless, the two seem to go together. Has to do
: with Christmas, they tell me.
: Here in the States, when the solstice aproaches, people put up lots of
: colored lights. I don't think they say "here comes the solstice, let's
: put up lights," but nonetheless, the two seem to go together. Has to do
: with Christmas, they tell me.
That's kind of her point. Jews and Moslems, frinstance, do not actually
put up colored lights at this time of, or any other time of, year. It's a
Christian Christmas thing, not a "solstice" thing. Suggesting that
putting up colored lights towards solstice is some sort of universal thing
is, well, er, what we gently call "wrong" in today's multicultural
society.
God bless it.
: Maybe you could introduce the practice in Australia and be the first.
: People would regard you with the same cheerful suspicion as they did the
: first trick-or-treaters there.
That would require her to take a long trip, given that Evelyn, who has had
an awful lot of Hugo Fan Writing nominations, lives in New Jersey, and
has for a couple of decades of fan-writing.
: (I thought you got the Aurora Australis down there. Were you just using
: "Northern Lights" for the benefit of all us Northerners? Thanks, if so.)
Okay, so you and Cathy aren't in Virginia any more. Where are you now?
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; For Hire as: Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; Northeast US
Doug Wickstrom
excited the ether to say:
>That's kind of her point. Jews and Moslems, frinstance, do not actually
>put up colored lights at this time of, or any other time of, year. It's a
>Christian Christmas thing, not a "solstice" thing. Suggesting that
>putting up colored lights towards solstice is some sort of universal thing
>is, well, er, what we gently call "wrong" in today's multicultural
>society.
Putting up all those lights has nothing at all to do with the
Christian religion, Gary, and a lot to do with pre-Christian
Northern European traditions.
Besides, it's _dark_ outside. So turn on some lights.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese." --Charles de Gaulle
David Goldfarb
Elisabeth Carey <lis....@mediaone.net> wrote:
)Avram Grumer wrote:
)> Isn't it also sort of like wrapping Christmas and Easter in with solar
)> events? If they're just supposed to be celebrations of the birth and
)> resurrection of Christ, then it's just a coincidence that they happens to
)> fall around these particular yearly times.
)
)The date of Easter is what it is...
Easter is tied to Passover, which is explicitly tied to the equinox.
There is no obvious reason why Easter needs to be tied to Passover
other than the Gospels stating that that's when the resurrection happened,
to be sure.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"I've always had a hard time getting up when
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | it's dark outside."
aste...@slip.net | "But in space, it's always dark."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |"I know. I know..." -- Babylon 5
Elisabeth Carey
> > an ass.
>
> people who were sincerely being complimentary when they called me
> "mighty white." I'm sorry not to live up to your standards, but that
> offended me.
The difference is that there's a racist assumption hidden under using
"mighty white" as a compliment, while there isn't in a mere lack of
knowledge about the details of someone else's religious practices.
> For that matter, so does being addressed with profanity in a response
> to my own, polite, attempt at discussion. But then, that's the
> problem with written communication; perhaps said profanity was one of
> those sincerely intended good wishes, and I just failed to pick up on
> that subtle shade of meaning.
>
> Be well.
I find it difficult to find a "polite attempt at discussion", in the
assertion that lack of knowledge is proof of lack of sincerity in
expressed good wishes.
Lis Carey
Elisabeth Carey
>
> In <384EE528...@home.com> Kip Williams <ki...@home.com> wrote:
> [. . .]
> : Here in the States, when the solstice aproaches, people put up lots of
> : colored lights. I don't think they say "here comes the solstice, let's
> : put up lights," but nonetheless, the two seem to go together. Has to do
> : with Christmas, they tell me.
>
> : Here in the States, when the solstice aproaches, people put up lots of
> : colored lights. I don't think they say "here comes the solstice, let's
> : put up lights," but nonetheless, the two seem to go together. Has to do
> : with Christmas, they tell me.
>
> put up colored lights at this time of, or any other time of, year. It's a
> Christian Christmas thing, not a "solstice" thing. Suggesting that
> putting up colored lights towards solstice is some sort of universal thing
> is, well, er, what we gently call "wrong" in today's multicultural
> society.
Putting up lights at this time of year has nothing, zero, zilch, nada
to do with Christian _religion_, Gary. It is not a Christian religious
practice, and the lights have no religious significance for the people
who are putting them up. Several centuries back, they did have some
religious significance--for pre-Christian European pagans. In parts of
Europe, that is. Mostly Germany, in fact. It didn't spread
significantly out of Germany with the spread of Christianity; it
spread to England with the marriage of Victoria and Albert, and to the
US with 19th-century German immigration, etc.
Lis Carey
Kip Williams
>
> In <384EE528...@home.com> Kip Williams <ki...@home.com> wrote:
> [. . .]
> : Here in the States, when the solstice aproaches, people put up lots of
> : colored lights. I don't think they say "here comes the solstice, let's
> : put up lights," but nonetheless, the two seem to go together. Has to do
> : with Christmas, they tell me.
>
> : Here in the States, when the solstice aproaches, people put up lots of
> : colored lights. I don't think they say "here comes the solstice, let's
> : put up lights," but nonetheless, the two seem to go together. Has to do
> : with Christmas, they tell me.
I didn't say it twice, man! (Quotating flame! Quotating flame!)
> That's kind of her point. Jews and Moslems, frinstance, do not actually
> put up colored lights at this time of, or any other time of, year. It's a
> Christian Christmas thing, not a "solstice" thing. Suggesting that
> putting up colored lights towards solstice is some sort of universal thing
> is, well, er, what we gently call "wrong" in today's multicultural
> society.
I had the impression she was denying the existence of colored lights at
this time of year. Perhaps I was wrong.
> : Maybe you could introduce the practice in Australia and be the first.
> : People would regard you with the same cheerful suspicion as they did the
> : first trick-or-treaters there.
>
> That would require her to take a long trip, given that Evelyn, who has had
> an awful lot of Hugo Fan Writing nominations, lives in New Jersey, and
> has for a couple of decades of fan-writing.
DOH! I mean... what I meant to say was... uh...
> : (I thought you got the Aurora Australis down there. Were you just using
> : "Northern Lights" for the benefit of all us Northerners? Thanks, if so.)
>
> Okay, so you and Cathy aren't in Virginia any more. Where are you now?
When I said that, I thought she was in the Southern hemisphere. We're
still here.
Kip Williams
[main points snipped]
> FWIW: I think Parker & Stone tend to tread lightly and be more subtle about
> homosexuality than religion or ethnicity-- which *may* reflect their own
> internal sense of what's political correct.
> South Park often appeals to my sense of the surreal. It sometimes strikes
> chords with its illustrations of the way we repress cultural taboos.
Watching the movie, I was impressed at how many taboos they went and
picked fights with. I think they were consciously striving to offend (I
might add, I found it pretty funny, for the most part: I don't like the
barf jokes, for instance). The thing that finally got to their real fans
was the references to homosexuality, and the threat of showing it. You
could almost hear them saying "now that's going TOO FAR."
> (And, this may be a low blow, but I can't help
> wondering why one of the voice actors on the show committed suicide.)
Mary Kay Bergman did a lot of voice acting. Maybe she killed herself
over her work for Disney? (I've read that she suffered from depression,
but mostly hid it.)