AKICIF: Because All Men Are Brothers
Beth Friedman
both in Paul Simon's "American Tune" and in the union hymn (it may not
be originally, but I learned it at a Habonim camp) "Because All Men
Are Brothers." It's actually the latter one that I'm more interested
in.
Any time I hum it for someone who might know, he or she says something
about it being a Lutheran hymn. But I was sure that it was Bach --
maybe the album notes for "American Tune" said Bach. And the Peter,
Paul & Mary version of "Because All Men Are Brothers" was played on
the Midnight Special, and the playlist
<http://www.midnightspecial.org/chicago/042702.html> credits Bach and
Glazer, which I assume goes to the music and words respectively (the
announcer on the Midnight Special thinks it's Joe Glazer, not his more
well-known brother Tom). Not that Bach and Lutheran hymn are
necessarily exclusive, of course. But I'd really like to find the
original source.
If anyone wants to hear the song, click on the link at
http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.asp?id=865840 or
http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.asp?id=865841 (first is
RealAudio, second is Windows Media Player) -- it's 51 minutes into the
first of the two recordings.
Any information appreciated.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>
>Any time I hum it for someone who might know, he or she says something
>about it being a Lutheran hymn. But I was sure that it was Bach --
>maybe the album notes for "American Tune" said Bach. And the Peter,
>Paul & Mary version of "Because All Men Are Brothers" was played on
>the Midnight Special, and the playlist
>
>http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.asp?id=865840 or
>http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.asp?id=865841 (first is
>RealAudio, second is Windows Media Player) -- it's 51 minutes into the
>first of the two recordings.
I would like to help, I really would, but is there any
way of fast-forwarding it? I don't want to listen to 51
minutes of the stuff on that program before coming to
the dubious Bach.
(In any case I could not listen to the first one, it
would've meant downloading something and I don't
download things unless Hal is there to give the
go-ahead.)
Let me know if there's a way of fast-forwarding the
second one.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Beth Friedman
Heydt), <Gvpn1...@kithrup.com>, wrote:
>In article <vauddukkirauim5c2...@4ax.com>,
>Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>>
>>Any time I hum it for someone who might know, he or she says something
>>about it being a Lutheran hymn. But I was sure that it was Bach --
>>maybe the album notes for "American Tune" said Bach. And the Peter,
>>Paul & Mary version of "Because All Men Are Brothers" was played on
>>the Midnight Special, and the playlist
>>
>>If anyone wants to hear the song, click on the link at
>>http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.asp?id=865840 or
>>http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.asp?id=865841 (first is
>>RealAudio, second is Windows Media Player) -- it's 51 minutes into the
>>first of the two recordings.
>
>I would like to help, I really would, but is there any
>way of fast-forwarding it? I don't want to listen to 51
>minutes of the stuff on that program before coming to
>the dubious Bach.
Click with your mouse on the slider that shows how far along you are,
and drag it to where you want it. It's not just terribly accurate,
but it'll get you within a few minutes. When you move it, it won't
show the amount of time elapsed, but when you let up and it rebuffers,
it will -- look at the time indicator.
>(In any case I could not listen to the first one, it
>would've meant downloading something and I don't
>download things unless Hal is there to give the
>go-ahead.)
In either case, you're downloading something, because that's how you
listen to streaming media -- or look at a Web page, for that matter.
Downloading a .RAM file is pretty safe, but if you're getting a
download warning, you may not have RealAudio installed, and you need
that or something similar to access it.
>Let me know if there's a way of fast-forwarding the
>second one.
See above. And thanks.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>
>Click with your mouse on the slider that shows how far along you are,
>and drag it to where you want it. It's not just terribly accurate,
>but it'll get you within a few minutes. When you move it, it won't
>show the amount of time elapsed, but when you let up and it rebuffers,
>it will -- look at the time indicator.
Oooooookay, that works, now one more question, what was the
length of the whole program? Was it an hour? In other
words, am I groping for 51 out of 60 minutes, or 51 out
of 120 minutes, or ....?
Beth Friedman
Heydt), <Gvpo7...@kithrup.com>, wrote:
>In article <2j0edu8m1jto74jaq...@4ax.com>,
>Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>>
>>Click with your mouse on the slider that shows how far along you are,
>>and drag it to where you want it. It's not just terribly accurate,
>>but it'll get you within a few minutes. When you move it, it won't
>>show the amount of time elapsed, but when you let up and it rebuffers,
>>it will -- look at the time indicator.
>
>Oooooookay, that works, now one more question, what was the
>length of the whole program? Was it an hour? In other
>words, am I groping for 51 out of 60 minutes, or 51 out
>of 120 minutes, or ....?
A very sensible question -- 51 minutes out of 3 hours. So just short
of one-third through.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Kip Williams
>
> I've been trying to find the source for a doubly-used tune. It's used
> both in Paul Simon's "American Tune" and in the union hymn (it may not
> be originally, but I learned it at a Habonim camp) "Because All Men
> Are Brothers." It's actually the latter one that I'm more interested
> in.
It's a Bach chorale. My copy of "The Book of a Thousand Songs" [*]
has it in English as "From Ill Do Thou Defend Me." Next, a look at
"371 Harmonized Chorales and 69 Chorale Melodies (with figured
bass)" turns up, at #74 (two places up from last week!!) "O Haupt
voll Blut und Wunden," which the notes say is more prevalently known
as "Herzlich thut mich verlangen."
The book goes on to say: "It is found in the 'St. Matthew Passion,'
where the melody is harmonized five times... Other names under which
this tune was known are 'Ach Herr, mich armen Suender,' 'Befiehl du
dine Wege,' and 'Wie soll ich dich empfangen.'"
I didn't go to the file you provided, but I'm pretty sure this is
what you are looking for. Bach being Lutheran, it is not unlikely
that this might be used as a Lutheran hymn. I looked to see if the
original melody was credited to anyone besides Bach, with no
success.
[*] http://www.web-helper.net/PDMusic/default.asp is the address of
someone who has scanned every page of this remarkable little old
book. They offer it for sale on a CD, but the book is still in
print.
Here's the sheet music for your tune:
http://www.web-helper.net/PDMusic/F/images/btsf0015.gif
(and I swear I saw a place that had MIDI recordings of, seemingly,
every one of the pieces in the book, but I can't seem to find it
now)
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
Carefully returning "1000 Songs" to my pack for the next time.
Dorothy J Heydt
Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>>
>>Oooooookay, that works, now one more question, what was the
>>length of the whole program? Was it an hour? In other
>>words, am I groping for 51 out of 60 minutes, or 51 out
>>of 120 minutes, or ....?
>
>A very sensible question -- 51 minutes out of 3 hours. So just short
>of one-third through.
Ah-HA.
Took me a bit of futzing around, including measuring the
total length of the bar with a measuring tape and
dividing by 3, but I found it.
I can tell you all about that one.
It's called the Passion Chorale, or "O Haupt Voll Blut
und Wunden" (the opening line of the original text). It
was originally written by Hans Leo Hassler in 1600, and
was used by Bach in the St. Matthew's Passion and lots
of other works. And by lots of other people in lots of
other places, it is one of the best and most classic
hymn tunes.
The English version of the text usually begins "O Sacred
Head Surrounded."
I don't know offhand who wrote the English translation,
nor who wrote the original German text, but I do know
the latter is a translation of one verse of a text by
St. Bernard of Clairvaux (12th century) called "Membra
Jesu Nostri," or roughly speaking "Our Lord's body
parts." (Which was set in its entirety by Buxtehude,
and which I have on tape cassette somewhere.)
If by chance you desire the German, English, and Latin
hymn texts, let me know.
Oh, yes, and to hear the tune at its ultimate best, get
hold of Bach's Christmas Oratorio, and listen to the
final chorale, which is the Passion Chorale set for
voices and triumphant brass, passion and death turned
into victory and resurrection, to die for, or rather,
fit to make you think you have died already and gone
straight to heaven.
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
I don't know the ultimate origin of this tune, and I have not heard it
all that many times in my life, but it's cool, as is the rest of the
playlist I heard. What playlist is it? Yours?
Lucy Kemnitzer
Cally Soukup
> I've been trying to find the source for a doubly-used tune. It's used
> both in Paul Simon's "American Tune" and in the union hymn (it may not
> be originally, but I learned it at a Habonim camp) "Because All Men
> Are Brothers." It's actually the latter one that I'm more interested
> in.
I learned "Because All Men are Brothers" for my church chior, many
moons ago. It's definately a Bach tune. <invokes Ghugle>
###
Tune: "O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden"/"Mein Gmüth ist mir verwirret"
(J. S. Bach/Hans Leo Haßler) (first published in 1613)
The melody is based on the famous Passion Chorale tune of J. S. Bach,
who borrowed it himself from H. L. Hassler ["Mein Gmüth ist mir
verwirret" in "Venusgärtlein," Nuremberg, 1613]. The Weavers recorded
it, and more recently, Peter, Paul and Mary. It has been reprinted in
in Unitarian and Lutheran hymnals, in Catholic and Protestant
publications, indicating that Brotherhood is ecumenical and ecumenism
is Brotherhood.
###
This sounds right to me.
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Kate Schaefer
news:vauddukkirauim5c2...@4ax.com...
> I've been trying to find the source for a doubly-used tune. It's used
> both in Paul Simon's "American Tune" and in the union hymn (it may not
> be originally, but I learned it at a Habonim camp) "Because All Men
> Are Brothers." It's actually the latter one that I'm more interested
> in.
>
> Any time I hum it for someone who might know, he or she says something
> about it being a Lutheran hymn. But I was sure that it was Bach --
> maybe the album notes for "American Tune" said Bach. And the Peter,
> Paul & Mary version of "Because All Men Are Brothers" was played on
> the Midnight Special, and the playlist
> <http://www.midnightspecial.org/chicago/042702.html> credits Bach and
> Glazer, which I assume goes to the music and words respectively (the
> announcer on the Midnight Special thinks it's Joe Glazer, not his more
> well-known brother Tom). Not that Bach and Lutheran hymn are
> necessarily exclusive, of course. But I'd really like to find the
> original source.
Bach and Lutheran hymn overlap a lot; Bach was a Lutheran.
Not that this helps answer your question, of course.
Beth Friedman
<3cd70efc...@cnews.newsguy.com>, wrote:
>I don't know the ultimate origin of this tune, and I have not heard it
>all that many times in my life, but it's cool, as is the rest of the
>playlist I heard. What playlist is it? Yours?
No -- it is assembled by a friend of mine, but that's pure
serendipity.
It's the Midnight Special, which is a folk music show that airs on
WFMT every Saturday, usually from 10 to 1, and rebroadcast on
Wednesdays. I grew up listening to the Midnight Special; they shaped
my tastes in folk music. Three hours of "folk music and farce, show
tunes and satire, madness and escape, odds and ends."
It's now available via streaming media on the Web. The archives site
is http://www.broadcast.com/radio/archives/wfmt/midnightspecial/ (they
have the most recent two weeks available) and the main playlist site
is http://www.midnightspecial.org/chicago.html.
The serendipitous part is that a friend of mine from media fandom is
the person who started doing the Web site and playlists a few years
ago. She's been helping on a volunteer basis with the fundraising
shows and the live talent, and they recently offered her her own slot
-- she has a very good on-radio voice.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Doug Wickstrom
<vauddukkirauim5c2...@4ax.com>
Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> excited the ether to say:
>I've been trying to find the source for a doubly-used tune. It's used
>both in Paul Simon's "American Tune" and in the union hymn (it may not
>be originally, but I learned it at a Habonim camp) "Because All Men
>Are Brothers." It's actually the latter one that I'm more interested
>in.
>
>Any time I hum it for someone who might know, he or she says something
>about it being a Lutheran hymn. But I was sure that it was Bach --
>maybe the album notes for "American Tune" said Bach. And the Peter,
>Paul & Mary version of "Because All Men Are Brothers" was played on
>the Midnight Special, and the playlist
><http://www.midnightspecial.org/chicago/042702.html> credits Bach and
>Glazer, which I assume goes to the music and words respectively (the
>announcer on the Midnight Special thinks it's Joe Glazer, not his more
>well-known brother Tom). Not that Bach and Lutheran hymn are
>necessarily exclusive, of course. But I'd really like to find the
>original source.
Hans Leo Hassler, ca. 1613 (yes, that was a good number of years
before Bach was born).
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
--Albert Einstein
Doug Wickstrom
<Gvpq4...@kithrup.com>
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) excited the ether to say:
>The English version of the text usually begins "O Sacred
>Head Surrounded."
^^^^^^^^^^
"Now Wounded."
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
"I'm sick of these conventional marriages. One woman and one man was
good enough for your grandmother, but who wants to marry your
grandmother? Nobody! Not even your grandfather." --Groucho Marx
Dorothy J Heydt
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 6 May 2002 23:19:41 GMT, in message
><Gvpq4...@kithrup.com>
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) excited the ether to say:
>
>>The English version of the text usually begins "O Sacred
>>Head Surrounded."
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>"Now Wounded."
Nah, that's the third line.
"O sacred head, surrounded
By crown of piercing thorn!
O bleeding head, now wounded,
reviled and put to scorn!
Death's pallid hue comes o'er thee,
The glow of life decays,
Yet angel hosts adore thee
And tremble as they gaze."
(It's much better in Latin or German.)
This doesn't mean that you didn't see it the other way.
Hymnal editors muck around with texts a lot. The
current fad is to eliminate not only the pronoun 'thou',
but also the pronoun 'he'. Yuccch.
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> I've been trying to find the source for a doubly-used tune. It's used
> both in Paul Simon's "American Tune" and in the union hymn (it may not
> be originally, but I learned it at a Habonim camp) "Because All Men
> Are Brothers."
"O Sacred Head Surrounded." Lyrics and organ rendition at
<http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/o/o179a.html>.
This site says:
Words: Henry Williams Baker, 1861
Music: Passion Chorale (Herzlich thut mich verlangen), St. Christopher
At <http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/eh1916/htm/h158.htm> it's credited:
Hans Leo Hassler, 1601; harm. Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750), 1729
Latin; St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1091-1153); Tr. Henry W. Baker, 1861
At <http://ingeb.org/spiritua/osacredh.htm> it says:
"Herzlich tut mich verlangen" Hans Leo Hassler 1601
Paul Gerhardt
There also seems to be an alternate version of the lyrics beginning with the
line "O sacred Head now wounded."
Does this count as Christian minutiae?
--
Bill Higgins | "Audience members are requested
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | to hum stirring music
| during the dramatic parts
Internet: | of this film."
hig...@fnal.gov | --1955 JPL (silent) documentary
Mary Kay Kare
<stuff totally irrelevant to what I'm about to say>
Gosh. Not one single person said what I did when I saw this subject
heading. "I won't let one of them marry my sister."
What has happened to RASFF smartassery? Inquiring minds want to know.
MKK
--
"Words are the hands of the mind"
Graydon Saunders on rec. arts.sf.fandom
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
> <stuff totally irrelevant to what I'm about to say>
>
> Gosh. Not one single person said what I did when I saw this subject
> heading. "I won't let one of them marry my sister."
>
> What has happened to RASFF smartassery? Inquiring minds want to know.
Your husband hasn't posted in a while.
(There, how was that?)
--
Bill Higgins | "There is no such thing as enough shelf space.
Fermilab | That is why a merciful god gave us floors."
hig...@fnal.gov | --Mary Kay Kare <ka...@sirius.com>
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> Gosh. Not one single person said what I did when I saw this subject
> heading. "I won't let one of them marry my sister."
>
> What has happened to RASFF smartassery? Inquiring minds want to know.
But I haven't _got_ a sister. And I don't have to prevent them from
marrying my brother, the gummint handles that one. :P (Even if he did
do an excellent rendition of "Girls just wanna have fun" in drag when he
was in sixth grade. . . .)
- Darkhawk, has a cool and very self-assured brother
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Dreams are not lost, they merely fall beneath the ashes of what is left
To the soul from where it starts to where it catches.
- "Matter," Josh Joplin Group