Marilee Layman is in the hospital
James Nicoll
reports on the situation here:
http://gerisullivan.livejournal.com/193088.html
and a forum with updates (and a birthday card for people to sign if they
like: Marilee's birthday is coming up) is here:
http://tenuousnet.myfastforum.org/forum1.php
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Keith F. Lynch
> Marilee apprears to have had another stroke. Geri Sullivan reports
> on the situation here:
> http://gerisullivan.livejournal.com/193088.html
Thanks. Many people disappear from this newsgroup, and we often never
find out what became of them. I've wondered, if something were to
happen to me, whether anyone who knows about it would post here about
it, or whether everyone here would be left wondering why I just
stopped posting one day.
Marilee and I are, according to Google Groups, the two all-time
highest volume posters here.
> and a forum with updates (and a birthday card for people to sign if
> they like: Marilee's birthday is coming up) is here:
> http://tenuousnet.myfastforum.org/forum1.php
Thanks. I don't do blogs, so I'll just have to give her my best
wishes in person. Fortunately, that hospital is within walking
distance of here. (Small world.) Maybe I'll drop by on Tuesday
evening.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
> Thanks. I don't do blogs, so I'll just have to give her my best
> wishes in person. Fortunately, that hospital is within walking
> distance of here. (Small world.) Maybe I'll drop by on Tuesday
> evening.
It looks like I'll be visiting her tomorrow, instead, as I just
learned that my mother is back in that same hospital. I had planned
on visiting my mother in her nursing home tomorrow anyway.
For them both to be in the same place is very convenient. But I would
much rather get along without such conveniences.
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Thanks. I don't do blogs, so I'll just have to give her my best
>> wishes in person. Fortunately, that hospital is within walking
>> distance of here. (Small world.) Maybe I'll drop by on Tuesday
>> evening.
>
>It looks like I'll be visiting her tomorrow, instead, as I just
>learned that my mother is back in that same hospital. I had planned
>on visiting my mother in her nursing home tomorrow anyway.
>
>For them both to be in the same place is very convenient. But I would
>much rather get along without such conveniences.
I don't know your mother, obviously, and I know Marilee only
virtually. But please give them both my best.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Keith F. Lynch
room seven of the Neuroscience ICU, which is on the second floor, up
the first stairway you encounter if you walk from the main information
desk toward the cancer ward. Each time I came to the ICU door, they'd
tell me she was undergoing a minor procedure and I should come back in
a few minutes. When they finally let me in, they praised me for my
patience. Little did they realize I was actually time-slicing with my
mother, who is a patient in a different ICU on a different floor in a
different wing of the same hospital. If my mother was still asleep,
and neither my brother nor the doctor was present to chat with, I saw
little point in hanging around her room.
I did spend a few minutes in a waiting room with nobody else in it. I
cycled through the channels available on the cable TV, and found one
of the Harry Potter movies. The sound and picture were more than a
full second out of sync, which made it unwatchable.
On one of my excursions back and forth, I saw my brother at the main
information desk, so I led him to our mother's room, and we sat in
there for about an hour, during which our mother woke up but wasn't
able to say much due to the fighter-pilot-style oxygen mask they had
her wearing. We were required to wear disposable gowns and gloves
while in her room, but not masks.
After that I was finally allowed into the Neuroscience ICU and
Marilee's room. I wasn't required to wear a gown or gloves, unlike
in my mother's room.
Marilee seems to have forgotten 99% of all English words. She is
alert, she recognized me, and she has no speech defect and no errors
in grammar unless you count abandoning sentences partway through and
starting over, but she struggles to find words to express even the
simplest concepts. Prompting her with the word she's probably looking
for doesn't help. It's very much like you or I trying to communicate
in a language we know only a few words of.
Since all she did was lie in bed and talk, I couldn't tell if she has
any non-verbal deficits. I asked her if she plays the piano. She
answered that she didn't know. But it's not clear to me whether
that's just because she doesn't know the word "piano." Perhaps if she
was seated at one she'd instantly know whether she can play it or not,
and similarly with other non-verbal skills such as riding a bicycle or
cooking a meal.
When a nurse asked her if she liked tea, she also said she didn't
know, even though the nurse was showing her the tea. But the tea
wasn't in a standard teacup, but in a hospital-style container that
could have contained anything. On trying it, she apparently decided
she did like it.
It would be interesting to see if she can communicate by drawing
pictures of what she means, or pointing to drawings made by others.
If so, then she's the ideal user of graphical user interfaces.
She was obviously frustrated, being very much a verbal person, as I
am. (The two of us have posted over 45,000 messages here on rasff,
more than any other two people.)
I told her the names of some of her well-wishers, but I'm not sure if
she recognized the names, or whether they went the same place as the
rest of her vocabulary. But she certainly recognized me, even though
we've only seen each other at one or two cons a year. And since she
cut back to only attending Minicon, not even that, as I've never been
to that con. So I'm sure she'd recognize anyone she knows, even if
she can't put a name to the face.
It's only been three days, so major improvements are still possible.
Worst case, she could simply relearn all the words.
She doesn't look sick. Anyone who visits hospitals soon realizes that
many patients have a very unwell look about them. My mother certainly
does, unfortunately. No medical show on TV has ever quite captured it
-- TV patients all look too healthy.
People with brain problems often have a strange or absent stare,
but Marilee looked perfectly normal. She faced me and looked at me
just as a healthy person would. Her gaze was somewhat intense and
unwavering, but that might just be because I was a familiar person
in unfamiliar surroundings.
After about half an hour I was chased out so the nurses could do yet
another minor procedure.
No more than two people at a time are allowed into her room. Any cell
phones must be turned off. Since you are likely to be made to wait,
bring a book.
I intend to visit again, next weekend or perhaps earlier. By then I
hope both my mother and Marilee will be out of their respective ICUs
and in the general wards.
I walked from home to the hospital and back, mostly along Gallows
Road. The weather was quite a contrast with that of just six days
ago, when it was bitter cold and there were six to eight inches of
snow everywhere. This afternoon it was 79 degrees (26 C), and there
was not a trace of snow or ice anywhere. It was like being on a
completely different planet. Or like the surreal final chapter of
Baxter's _Titan_.
On the way home I noticed that the Giant grocery store near where
Route 50 meets Gallows Road had been replaced by an international
grocery store, and that that international grocery store seemed to
be permanently closed. I took a closer look and saw that there had
obviously been a severe fire there. The store is still full of
products, but many of them are visibly melted or burned, and much
of the roof is missing, leaving the shelving open to the sky.
From the vicinity of that store, I can see *two* former UUNET
headquarters buildings, in opposite directions along Route 50. The
newer one, on Williams Drive, where I once went Dumpster diving due
to all the spam from UUNET, now has a "PAYCHEX" logo on it. A little
further north, half the businesses in Merrifield are closed or even
torn down. The multiplex theater that had been there as long as I can
remember is closed.
Kip Williams
Scraps deSelby had his stroke, I put together a large-size sheet of the
most common words so he could point to them. If you think Marilee might
be able to use this, let me know. I can send a pdf to anybody who would
print it and bring it to her.
Kip W
Kip Williams
post to the web forum dedicated to Marilee?
It's at tenuousnet.myfastforum.org, though I don't suppose it's
compatible for you, being in a rather graphic format.
My plan would be to start a new thread called "Keith Lynch visits
Marilee at the hospital" and to include a brief explanation of how I
came to be posting your visit.
Kip W
Jette
> Keith, thanks for the report, and thanks for visiting Marilee.
Echoing Kip here - thanks, Keith.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfette/
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
Keith F. Lynch
> When Scraps deSelby had his stroke, I put together a large-size
> sheet of the most common words so he could point to them. If you
> think Marilee might be able to use this, let me know. I can send a
> pdf to anybody who would print it and bring it to her.
I don't think that would help. I imagine she'd have as hard a time
recognizing written words as spoken words. (I could be wrong.)
Pictures might help. Since she can recognize me, presumably she can
recognize common objects and pictures of them.
I never knew Scraps deSelby. Did he have problems speaking? There's
nothing wrong with Marilee's voice. She's just forgotten most of
the words.
Keith F. Lynch
> ps: May I have your permission to post the relevant portions of your
> post to the web forum dedicated to Marilee?
Please do. Thanks.
Any reason not to post all of it? I know there were some seemimg
irrelevancies in there, but I think they help give context and flavor.
Janet Kegg
>Kip Williams <k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> ps: May I have your permission to post the relevant portions of your
>> post to the web forum dedicated to Marilee?
>
>Please do. Thanks.
>
>Any reason not to post all of it? I know there were some seemimg
>irrelevancies in there, but I think they help give context and flavor.
Thanks, Keith, for writing about your visit to Marilee. I saw her
around noon today and had similar impressions. She's alert but
frustrated and worried.
Her nurse told me she may be transferred to a regular room as early as
Tuesday (that's her birthday).
I hope to visit her again soon. I wish the hospital were closer (I
live in DC).
-- Janet Kegg, first time here in ages
j...@his.com
Kip Williams
> Kip Williams <k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> ps: May I have your permission to post the relevant portions of your
>> post to the web forum dedicated to Marilee?
>
> Please do. Thanks.
>
> Any reason not to post all of it? I know there were some seemimg
> irrelevancies in there, but I think they help give context and flavor.
I was planning to include everything between "Marilee seems to have
forgotten..." to "...bring a book." Mostly for reasons of length. If it
is your wish that it all be included, then I'll include it all. Let me
know. I'm just glad that people are visiting her, and I hate being so
far away at this time. Marilee has been a really good friend over the
years, and I wish I could help her now.
Kip W
Keith F. Lynch
> Thanks, Keith, for writing about your visit to Marilee. I saw her
> around noon today and had similar impressions. She's alert but
> frustrated and worried.
Ah, your visit began after my first attempt but ended before my last
and successful attempt to see her. One of the nurses mentioned that
another Internet friend had been there, but couldn't remmber your
name. Nor could Marilee, of coruse.
> I hope to visit her again soon. I wish the hospital were closer (I
> live in DC).
It's directly on the 1C, 1F, and 1Z buses from Ballston, and the 401
bus that goes between Dunn Loring/Merrifield and Franconia/Springfield.
David Bilek
>In article <gp1hma$h9d$1...@panix3.panix.com> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>
>>Kip Williams <k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>> ps: May I have your permission to post the relevant portions of your
>>> post to the web forum dedicated to Marilee?
>>
>>Please do. Thanks.
>>
>>Any reason not to post all of it? I know there were some seemimg
>>irrelevancies in there, but I think they help give context and flavor.
>
>Thanks, Keith, for writing about your visit to Marilee. I saw her
>around noon today and had similar impressions. She's alert but
>frustrated and worried.
>
Yeah, thanks Keith. I don't post much to RASFF anymore but this was
important enough to delurk for.
-David
Keith F. Lynch
> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> Any reason not to post all of it? I know there were some seemimg
>> irrelevancies in there, but I think they help give context and flavor.
> I was planning to include everything between "Marilee seems to have
> forgotten..." to "...bring a book." Mostly for reasons of length.
> If it is your wish that it all be included, then I'll include it
> all. Let me know. I'm just glad that people are visiting her, and
> I hate being so far away at this time. Marilee has been a really
> good friend over the years, and I wish I could help her now.
How about a compromise. Go ahead and end with "bring a book," but
start at the beginning. In other words, go ahead and edit out
Gallows Road, but leave my mother in. Thanks.
Kay Shapero
> Marilee apprears to have had another stroke. Geri Sullivan
> reports on the situation here:
>
> http://gerisullivan.livejournal.com/193088.html
>
> and a forum with updates (and a birthday card for people to sign if they
> like: Marilee's birthday is coming up) is here:
>
> http://tenuousnet.myfastforum.org/forum1.php
>
--
Kay Shapero
address munged, email kay at following domain
http://www.kayshapero.net
Martha Adams
"Kay Shapero" <k...@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.242102455...@news.west.earthlink.net...
==============================================
I think it would be good if we could have a little information at a
technical level, about Marilee's stroke and its probable consequences.
What has she lost? I can see the very best intentions and serious
attempted communication going nowhere without some degree of reality
base to it. A friend of mine had a stroke and after that, our
interactions for the next two years all included as part of the agenda,
"I'm trying to find a way out of this." Which did not happen. Reality
trumped the best intentions between the two of us. In addition to which
I had a "mild" stroke myself, which I could say a lot about but let's do
with "It was a terrific learning experience."
Which all tells me, doing the best for Marilee *requires* attention to
what her reality is now. Most especially, right now, what does she
want?
Titeotwawki -- mha [rasff 2009 Mar 11]
Keith F. Lynch
visiting my mother in the same hospital. I tried twice, an hour
apart. Both times she was out of her room for tests. So all I know
is that she's still in the neuroscience ICU at Fairfax Hospital.
I'll probably try again this weekend.
Janet Kegg
wrote:
>I think it would be good if we could have a little information at a
>technical level, about Marilee's stroke and its probable consequences.
>What has she lost? I can see the very best intentions and serious
>attempted communication going nowhere without some degree of reality
>base to it. A friend of mine had a stroke and after that, our
>interactions for the next two years all included as part of the agenda,
>"I'm trying to find a way out of this." Which did not happen. Reality
>trumped the best intentions between the two of us. In addition to which
>I had a "mild" stroke myself, which I could say a lot about but let's do
>with "It was a terrific learning experience."
>
>Which all tells me, doing the best for Marilee *requires* attention to
>what her reality is now. Most especially, right now, what does she
>want?
Yesterday I had a very short visit around 1:30 before she was wheeled
away for a procedure that may have taken most of the afternoon. She
has made much progress since I last saw her on Sunday. Words are
coming back, she understands much better what people are saying, and
she was able to read a birthday card her brother brought.
A Marilee forum is available at
http://tenuousnet.myfastforum.org/forum1.php
-- Janet
jmk at his.com
Martha Adams
news:jtphr4trcndk69t1o...@4ax.com...
=================================================
Hmmm ...I don't know Marilee personally so I think I'll stay out of the
forum. I do have an idea. If her words are coming back, just possibly,
could someone visit her with a laptop and wifi in hand, and find a way
for her to pick up some communication? Maybe lean on the hospital
admins a little, to allow this to happen? ??
Titeotwawki -- mha [rasff 2009 Mar 12]
Keith F. Lynch
it's possible to have a normal conversation with her. She's still
missing a few words, but it's barely noticeable. She's out of the
ICU, and is in room 353. If you enter the emergency room entrance, at
the east end of the hospital, the end that faces Gallows Road, go out
the back of the emergency room, up the escalators, go a little ways
down the hall to the volunteer services area, then go up two flight of
stairs, you should be right next to her room.
First I visited my mother, who is in the same hospital. After
a week my mother is still in the ICU and still on the BiPAP
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipap#Bi-level_pressure_devices).
This makes it hard for her to talk understandably, and impossible for
for her to read since her reading glasses won't fit over the mask.
She had been listening to the radio when I visited three days ago, but
now the radio is broken, and she hasn't been able to get anyone to
replace or fix it. I am not at all happy about this.
My mother's condition was much of what I discussed with Marilee during
our hour-long conversation.
Marilee has difficulty walking. This is a normal effect of lying down
for a week. On weekdays the hospital is providing physical therapy to
literally get her back on her feet. Strangely enough, a few weeks ago
the hospital people had told me that the hospital does *not* provide
PT, when I asked why my mother had to go to a nursing home to receive
PT. I had responded that I pass by what's obviously a PT room on my
way in each time. I was then told that it's only for outpatients.
I hate being lied to, especially when I don't understand why.
William December Starr
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
> I visited Marilee again this afternoon. She is greatly improved,
> and it's possible to have a normal conversation with her. She's
> still missing a few words, but it's barely noticeable. She's out
> of the ICU, and is in room 353. If you enter the emergency room
> entrance, at the east end of the hospital, the end that faces
> Gallows Road, go out the back of the emergency room, up the
> escalators, go a little ways down the hall to the volunteer
> services area, then go up two flight of stairs, you should be
> right next to her room.
Does her door say "Beware of the Leopard?"
-- wds
Keith F. Lynch
Her room is one of the *easier* places to describe how to get to. I'd
have a much harder time describing how to get to my mother's room, if
I were foolish enough to even try. That hospital is huge, and it's a
maze. It makes the largest and most complicated con hotel look like a
Motel Six in comparison. It makes the Winchester Mystery House look
like my one-bedroom apartment. There's ample room in that hospital to
hold a Worldcon and a Dragoncon simultaneously, or maybe two of each
plus a Comic-Con. It was built over many years by many architects,
adding a wing here and a tower there and an annex down the hall and
around the corner. There are so many doors marked "staff only" that
there's probably a factory that specializes in just those doors.
And it's not all indoors. There's the occasional outdoor Healing
Garden or Memorial Wall completely surrounded by the hospital.
I wish I could just say Marilee was in room 353, and leave it at that.
But that would be about as useful as saying someone lives on Main
Street in Springfield. Or I could have said to ask at the main
information desk -- except that that's even harder to find. There are
touch-screen information kiosks in parts of the hospital, but they're
pretty much useless, and in much of the hospital there aren't any anyway.
In
http://tenuousnet.myfastforum.org/Hospital_visit_by_Janet_Friday_3_13_at_10_30am_about17.html
Janet said it was right above where she previously was. That's not
quite right. I took the stairs up from her previous location, and
found myself in a maze of rooms with single-digit numbers. At least
I was on the right floor of the right tower -- all I needed to do was
find the correct hall. After my visit, I returned to the ground floor
by the stairs closest to her room, and was surprised to see how close
to the east end of the hospital complex I was, very near the escalators
that are near the emergency department. So that's actually very
convenient for anyone arriving on foot from Gallows Road.
Anyhow, she's doing so well that I wouldn't be surprised if they send
her home soon.
Keith F. Lynch
> I think it would be good if we could have a little information at a
> technical level, about Marilee's stroke and its probable consequences.
When I visited yesterday, she said it wwasn't a stroke, but a subdural
hematoma. I was surprised, as those are usually from physical injuries
such as car crashes or being beaten with a baseball bat, and she said
there had been no such injury.
> What has she lost?
She seems to me to have almost entirely recovered. She still has some
verbal deficits compared to her prior self or the average fan, but
she's probably on a par with the average American, and still improving.
Of course there may be other deficits I haven't noticed, as all we
did was talk.
She has difficulty walking, but that's normal for someone who has been
in bed for a week, and the treatment is obvious.
I think the important thing for her doctors is to figure out how it
happened in the first place, so as to, if possible, make sure it can't
happen again.
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Martha Adams wrote:
>> I think it would be good if we could have a little information at a
>> technical level, about Marilee's stroke and its probable consequences.
>
>When I visited yesterday, she said it wwasn't a stroke, but a subdural
>hematoma. I was surprised, as those are usually from physical injuries
>such as car crashes or being beaten with a baseball bat, and she said
>there had been no such injury.
Hm. But she doesn't remember much about the period in
question, does she? ISTR you or somebody saying that she
didn't remember having phoned for help. I know she's had
balance problems for a good while; perhaps she fell and
struck her head on something, and doesn't remember having
done so.
>> What has she lost?
>
>She seems to me to have almost entirely recovered. She still has some
>verbal deficits compared to her prior self or the average fan, but
>she's probably on a par with the average American, and still improving.
>Of course there may be other deficits I haven't noticed, as all we
>did was talk.
Still, that's good news right there.
>
>She has difficulty walking, but that's normal for someone who has been
>in bed for a week, and the treatment is obvious.
>
>I think the important thing for her doctors is to figure out how it
>happened in the first place, so as to, if possible, make sure it can't
>happen again.
Indeed.
Kay Shapero
> In article <gpjnfi$nth$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >Martha Adams wrote:
> >> I think it would be good if we could have a little information at a
> >> technical level, about Marilee's stroke and its probable consequences.
> >
> >When I visited yesterday, she said it wwasn't a stroke, but a subdural
> >hematoma. I was surprised, as those are usually from physical injuries
> >such as car crashes or being beaten with a baseball bat, and she said
> >there had been no such injury.
>
> Hm. But she doesn't remember much about the period in
> question, does she? ISTR you or somebody saying that she
> didn't remember having phoned for help. I know she's had
> balance problems for a good while; perhaps she fell and
> struck her head on something, and doesn't remember having
> done so.
Sounds quite possible to me - I don't remember either time I fell hard
enough to injure my head, though both gaps were no more than a minute or
three.
--
Kay "no comments, please" Shapero
Keith F. Lynch
was my third visit, not counting one unsuccessful attempted visit.
She was still in room 353. But she said that she will be moved fo the
Inova Rehabilitation Center at Inova Mount Vernon Hospital, probably
tomorrow (Wednesday). It has an Alexandria street address, but is
actually about five miles south of that city. See
http://www.inova.org/healthcare-services/rehabilitation/locations/inova-mount-vernon-hospital/index.jsp
It's not near any Metro station, but several Fairfax Connector buses
go there from the Huntington Metro station on the Yellow Line. See
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/connector/south.htm
She says she will be getting both verbal and physical rehabilitation
there. Estimates for how long it will take range from a week to a
month. She is already able to walk without a walker, though neither
far nor quickly.
She now says it wasn't a subdural hematoma, but a brain bleed, and
that she definitely did not fall.
My mother, who is in the same hospital, is also improved, and is
finally out of the ICU, and off of the BiPAP. She's in a remarkably
large room, one with its own anteroom/kitchen which has a second TV,
and she has the whole place to herself. (Of course most of it doesn't
do her much good, as she's still flat on her back, unable to even sit
up.) And visitors don't have to put on gowns or gloves, or wait for
someone to open a door for them. It's very quiet, since instead of an
oxygen machine, her cannula is plugged into a convenient oxygen outlet
in the wall. They never did fix the broken radio in her old room, but
the radio and TV in the new room work fine. More importantly, now
that she's not wearing a BiPAP mask, she can wear her reading glasses,
and read.
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Two sets of good news.
Kip Williams
first place.
I'm glad to hear your mom is doing better. Two for two!
Kip W
David V. Loewe, Jr
wrote:
>My mother, who is in the same hospital, is also improved, and is
>finally out of the ICU, and off of the BiPAP. She's in a remarkably
>large room, one with its own anteroom/kitchen which has a second TV,
>and she has the whole place to herself. (Of course most of it doesn't
>do her much good, as she's still flat on her back, unable to even sit
>up.) And visitors don't have to put on gowns or gloves,
Since I tested positive as a carrier of MRSA, I always get a private
room. But, you are supposed to put on gloves and gowns to come in to
see me.
>or wait for
>someone to open a door for them. It's very quiet, since instead of an
>oxygen machine, her cannula is plugged into a convenient oxygen outlet
>in the wall. They never did fix the broken radio in her old room, but
>the radio and TV in the new room work fine. More importantly, now
>that she's not wearing a BiPAP mask, she can wear her reading glasses,
>and read.
--
"Learn to see in another’s calamity the ills which you
should avoid."
Publius Syrus
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> My mother, who is in the same hospital, is also improved, and
>> is finally out of the ICU, and off of the BiPAP. She's in a
>> remarkably large room, one with its own anteroom/kitchen which has
>> a second TV, and she has the whole place to herself. (Of course
>> most of it doesn't do her much good, as she's still flat on her
>> back, unable to even sit up.) And visitors don't have to put on
>> gowns or gloves,
As I mentioned in a previous message, they did have to when she was in
the ICU. As far as I know, she doesn't have anything contagious, and
never did. Nor have I or any other of her visitors.
> Since I tested positive as a carrier of MRSA, I always get a private
> room. But, you are supposed to put on gloves and gowns to come in
> to see me.
Is that a permanent condition? I'd think that even if no antibiotic
could harm it, that your own immune system would get rid of it. Or that
if your immune system failed to do so, that the MRSA would kill you.
Paul Dormer
Lynch) wrote:
>
> Is that a permanent condition? I'd think that even if no antibiotic
> could harm it, that your own immune system would get rid of it. Or
that
> if your immune system failed to do so, that the MRSA would kill
> you.
Typhoid Mary never became clean, and she lived to be 69.
Jette
MRSA is harmless to the carriers for the most part - and harmless to
most of us, for the most part. It lives quite happily on the surface
of the skin or in the nose - it's only when it gets under the skin -
for example via a wound - that it causes problems.
David Loewe, Jr.
wrote:
>Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> David V. Loewe, Jr <dave...@charter.net> wrote:
>>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>> My mother, who is in the same hospital, is also improved, and
>>>> is finally out of the ICU, and off of the BiPAP. She's in a
>>>> remarkably large room, one with its own anteroom/kitchen which has
>>>> a second TV, and she has the whole place to herself. (Of course
>>>> most of it doesn't do her much good, as she's still flat on her
>>>> back, unable to even sit up.) And visitors don't have to put on
>>>> gowns or gloves,
>>
>> As I mentioned in a previous message, they did have to when she was in
>> the ICU. As far as I know, she doesn't have anything contagious, and
>> never did. Nor have I or any other of her visitors.
>>
>>> Since I tested positive as a carrier of MRSA, I always get a private
>>> room. But, you are supposed to put on gloves and gowns to come in
>>> to see me.
>>
>> Is that a permanent condition? I'd think that even if no antibiotic
>> could harm it, that your own immune system would get rid of it. Or that
>> if your immune system failed to do so, that the MRSA would kill you.
>
>MRSA is harmless to the carriers for the most part - and harmless to
>most of us, for the most part. It lives quite happily on the surface
>of the skin or in the nose - it's only when it gets under the skin -
>for example via a wound - that it causes problems.
It is a problem on the Oncology Ward because many of the patients are
immuno-suppressed.
--
"It is easier to destroy than to create."
-Laurence VanCott Niven
Jette
Well, yes - but they don't count as "most of us".
David V. Loewe, Jr
wrote:
I was just explaining why there is a rigmarole for me (if I want to
leave the room), the doctors and the visitors when *I'm* in the
hospital. Note that no one is required to gown up when I'm out in
public (or even at the Oncologist's Office).
--
"Oh now feel it comin' back again
Like a rollin' thunder chasing the wind
Forces pullin' from the center of the earth again
I can feel it."
- Ed Kowalczyk,Chad Taylor,Patrick Dahlheimer
& Chad Gracey
Nels Satterlund
Well at least two of us .....
Nels
--
Nels E Satterlund I don't speak for the company
Ne...@Starstream.net <-- Use this address please,
My Lurkers motto: I read much better than I type.
Keith F. Lynch
> MRSA is harmless to the carriers for the most part - and harmless
> to most of us, for the most part. It lives quite happily on the
> surface of the skin or in the nose - it's only when it gets under
> the skin - for example via a wound - that it causes problems.
If it's on the surface of your skin, why wouldn't it disappear as soon
as you wash with soap and water?
John Duncan Yoyo
wrote:
>Jette <boss...@scotlandmail.com> wrote:
>> MRSA is harmless to the carriers for the most part - and harmless
>> to most of us, for the most part. It lives quite happily on the
>> surface of the skin or in the nose - it's only when it gets under
>> the skin - for example via a wound - that it causes problems.
>
>If it's on the surface of your skin, why wouldn't it disappear as soon
>as you wash with soap and water?
Most people don't wash that throughly.
MRSA is apparently pretty tough.
I was talking to the health and safety guy at work today. He said he
didn't like artificial turf feilds because they could get MRSA
contanmintaion that couldn't be cleaned out. I though UV in the form
of sunshine would disinfect things like that over time.
Of course he has a level of paranoia I can't approach.
-
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.
netcat
@gmail.com says...
> On 19 Mar 2009 22:04:03 -0400, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Jette <boss...@scotlandmail.com> wrote:
> >> MRSA is harmless to the carriers for the most part - and harmless
> >> to most of us, for the most part. It lives quite happily on the
> >> surface of the skin or in the nose - it's only when it gets under
> >> the skin - for example via a wound - that it causes problems.
> >
> >If it's on the surface of your skin, why wouldn't it disappear as soon
> >as you wash with soap and water?
>
> Most people don't wash that throughly.
>
> MRSA is apparently pretty tough.
>
> I was talking to the health and safety guy at work today. He said he
> didn't like artificial turf feilds because they could get MRSA
> contanmintaion that couldn't be cleaned out. I though UV in the form
> of sunshine would disinfect things like that over time.
A recent article I read mentioned a study that suggests you can also get
it from swimming in the warm waters of tropical resorts. I wonder if it
fares less well in cold water. And what about swimming pools? Does
chlorine kill it?
rgds,
netcat
David Harmon
Yoyo <johndun...@gmail.com> wrote,
>On 19 Mar 2009 22:04:03 -0400, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net>
>wrote:
>>as you wash with soap and water?
>
>Most people don't wash that throughly.
>
>MRSA is apparently pretty tough.
How tough?
If I had it, and knew, it seems like I would be interested in getting
rid of it. What would it take? Special soap? Or is there somewhere
I can buy a session of "Andromeda Strain" decontamination?
Jette
> Jette <boss...@scotlandmail.com> wrote:
>> MRSA is harmless to the carriers for the most part - and harmless
>> to most of us, for the most part. It lives quite happily on the
>> surface of the skin or in the nose - it's only when it gets under
>> the skin - for example via a wound - that it causes problems.
>
> If it's on the surface of your skin, why wouldn't it disappear as soon
> as you wash with soap and water?
No. You'll never _fully_ remove bacteria from the surface of the skin
with washing.
Robert Sneddon
<boss...@scotlandmail.com> writes
>Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> If it's on the surface of your skin, why wouldn't it disappear as
>>soon
>> as you wash with soap and water?
>
>No. You'll never _fully_ remove bacteria from the surface of the skin
>with washing.
>
Charlie Stross talked once about his training as a pharmacist. As part
of the Health and Safety segment of the course the students washed their
hands with a pharmacy-grade disinfectant (he called it a biocide), the
sort of really toxic stuff that is not sold to untrained people to use.
After doing this they briefly put their hands on a slab of culture gel
which was then incubated. The resulting bloom of bacterial flora, after
staining, showed just how persistent skin bacteria are -- if you think
about it, they are exposed to high and low temps, UV from the sun,
oxygen in large quantities etc. etc. A little soap and water is not
going to faze them much.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
Dorothy J Heydt
Yup. There used to be a custom, among some highfalutin'
types, never EVER to touch any food with your fingers.
(E.g., the late Queen Mary, grandmother of her present
Majesty.) The explanation used to be "well, yes, you can
wash your hands. But you can't *sterilize* them."
On the other paw, with the exception of particularly nasty
bacteria and particularly compromised immune systems, a few
bacteria here and there won't hurt you.
Keith F. Lynch
> Jette <boss...@scotlandmail.com> writes:
>> No. You'll never _fully_ remove bacteria from the surface of the
>> skin with washing.
If it's one particular objectionable species that isn't replenished by
what you touch, I don't see why several washings wouldn't remove all
of them. There are only a finite number.
> Charlie Stross talked once about his training as a pharmacist. As
> part of the Health and Safety segment of the course the students
> washed their hands with a pharmacy-grade disinfectant (he called
> it a biocide), the sort of really toxic stuff that is not sold to
> untrained people to use. After doing this they briefly put their
> hands on a slab of culture gel which was then incubated. The
> resulting bloom of bacterial flora, after staining, showed just
> how persistent skin bacteria are --
Then I wonder what the point of washing one's hands is, except to
remove noticeable stickiness, visible dirt, or something that smells
objectionable. Why, for instance, do surgeons do it?
> if you think about it, they are exposed to high and low temps, UV
> from the sun, oxygen in large quantities etc. etc.
I've wondered the same about tetanus. Never mind how it gets onto
rusty nails in the first place, why doesn't sunlight and fresh air
soon sterilize those nails?
> A little soap and water is not going to faze them much.
I thought soap or detergent dissolved bacteria cell walls.
Andy Leighton
> Robert Sneddon <fr...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Jette <boss...@scotlandmail.com> writes:
>>> No. You'll never _fully_ remove bacteria from the surface of the
>>> skin with washing.
>
> If it's one particular objectionable species that isn't replenished by
> what you touch, I don't see why several washings wouldn't remove all
> of them. There are only a finite number.
Yes, but they reproduce quickly and MRSA are particularly tough. There
is a decolonisation routine for MRSA which vastly reduces the quantity
of bacteria and hence the likliehood of infection. It involves washing
and showering with Chlorohexidine (the same stuff as surgical scrub) and
the application of a nasal ointment for five days solid. Even then it
doesn't get rid of it all. Staph Aureus can reinfect from pets, other
people and even from the environment.
>> A little soap and water is not going to faze them much.
>
> I thought soap or detergent dissolved bacteria cell walls.
Nope - or at least not for most soap. Bacteria even live on the surface
of bars of soap.
--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
jpol...@hotmail.com
> Then I wonder what the point of washing one's hands is, except to
> remove noticeable stickiness, visible dirt, or something that smells
> objectionable. Why, for instance, do surgeons do it?
It's a matter of probabilities. If someone is exposed to a few
bacteria, it's probable that the body's defenses will take care of
them before there's a serious problem, either by getting them
before they cause any infection, or by cleaning up an extremely
localized infection. (This obviously depends on the state of the
body's defenses and on the nastiness of the bacteria.) The few
bacteria might simply die even without active response from the
body. But the more bacteria the person is exposed to, the
greater the probability that active infection will take hold.
Karl Johanson
>> Jette <boss...@scotlandmail.com> writes:
>>> No. You'll never _fully_ remove bacteria from the surface of the
>>> skin with washing.
>
> If it's one particular objectionable species that isn't replenished by
> what you touch, I don't see why several washings wouldn't remove all
> of them. There are only a finite number.
A small number hang on pretty tight, and reproduce. There's plenty of hiding
spaces, not readily apparent to our eyes. Inside the sworls of our finger
prints, under the nails, in minor cuts, under some dirt or oil which doesn't
happen to dissolve on washing.
>> Charlie Stross talked once about his training as a pharmacist. As
>> part of the Health and Safety segment of the course the students
>> washed their hands with a pharmacy-grade disinfectant (he called
>> it a biocide), the sort of really toxic stuff that is not sold to
>> untrained people to use. After doing this they briefly put their
>> hands on a slab of culture gel which was then incubated. The
>> resulting bloom of bacterial flora, after staining, showed just
>> how persistent skin bacteria are --
>
> Then I wonder what the point of washing one's hands is, except to
> remove noticeable stickiness, visible dirt, or something that smells
> objectionable. Why, for instance, do surgeons do it?
Probabilities. 100,000 pathogenic bacteria per square centimetre is less
likely to infect a wound than 1,000,000 per square centimetre.
>> if you think about it, they are exposed to high and low temps, UV
>> from the sun, oxygen in large quantities etc. etc.
>
> I've wondered the same about tetanus. Never mind how it gets onto
> rusty nails in the first place,
From contact with soil most likely.
>why doesn't sunlight and fresh air
> soon sterilize those nails?
On our scale there are lots of shady places. On the scale of bacteria that's
true as well. And remember, you can boil water & still have bacteria in it.
The longer you boil it the more of them die, to be sure.
>> A little soap and water is not going to faze them much.
>
> I thought soap or detergent dissolved bacteria cell walls.
Some are protected by dirt, oil, other bacteria which are more resistant to
soap or detergent, or by the dead bacteria killed by the soap or detergent,
etc.
Karl Johanson