Canon of Christmas Songs: Well Gone Dry?
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
Christmas carols.
There are a lot of Christmas songs, and people are always writing new
ones. But the set of "standards," widely accepted, widely performed
Christmas carols, hasn't gotten any bigger since the early 1960s.
(I'm speaking of the United States. Your nation's culture may vary.)
There are really old ones, like "Silent Night" or "The First Noel."
There are Tin Pan Alley ones added in the first half of the 20th
Century, like "White Christmas," "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer," or
"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town."
There are a few that were added to the canon in the Fifties and
Sixties, like Mel Torme's "Christmas Song."
And then it stops.
The last real Christmas "standard" I can think of[1] was "Do You Hear
What I Hear," from 1963. [2]
I think I could prove my hypothesis by more than one method.
One way would be to build a database of Christmas albums, listing the
songs that are performed on each one, and of dates that Christmas
songs were written. Make a histogram, showing frequency of appearance
of a song on albums vs. year the song was composed. I argue that
post-1965 songs would show a very abrupt cutoff in the distribution.
Yes, one would expect older songs to be more frequent in general, but
I'm talking about a really sharp drop.
I don't know where I could find a discography database from which I
could compile such a database... but I imagine there might be a
suitable one somewhere on the Web.
Composition dates would not necessarily be logged in a discography. I
could probably get some of the information I need by going through
five or six books of Christmas sheet music. At least that would give
dates for all the highly popular songs. Others might be available by
tediously slogging through the ASCAP/BMI Web site, one song at a
time...
Another way would be to count songs in songbooks.
I tried looking at a listing of *Your Hit Parade* songs, but it turns
out that Christmas songs hardly ever make it into the top 10, so data
are sparse there.
I'd be interested in tools. Suggestions welcomed on sources, Web
sites, databases, reference books, etc. that would make this research
job more painless.
Counterexamples-- you may be able to point out songs, composed
1965-2000, which you claim have achieved "standard" status-- would be
mildly interesting, but not nearly so interesting as help with a
quantitative way of proving or disproving my hypothesis. I'm not
saying "NO songs have been added to the canon since 1965," I'm saying
"hardly any."
I'll maybe grant you "Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer" (1979).[3]
The next question is: If I am right, why?
What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
songs? What stopped the formation of consensus on which songs are
classics-- as measured by criteria such as "played frequently on the
radio," "recorded by many famous artists on their Xmas albums," or
"appearing in many printed collections of Christmas songs?"
Certainly songwriters haven't stopped writing 'em. There must be
hundreds each year in Nashville alone.
Perhaps the Christmas standard is a victim of the earthquake in
American popular music triggered by the rise of rock'n'roll. If so,
the connection isn't clear to me.
* * *
Footnote [1]: Except for "We Need a Little Christmas," from *Mame*
(1966), which is really a song about celebrating Christmas at a
totally inappropriate time, like in the summer. But of course people
only play it at Christmastime. Seems wrong. Even though it has
become one of the standards. Misses the point.
Footnote [2]: Another thing: There's a set of songs that aren't really
about Christmas, but are lumped in with Christmas songs anyway.
Mostly they are about winter itself: "Sleigh Ride," "Walking in a
Winter Wonderland," "Let It Snow," and "Frosty the Snowman." I don't
think including them in a study would distort the figures much.
Footnote [3]: Smart-alecs who point out that Three Dog Night had a #1
hit with Hoyt Axton's "Joy to the World" in 1971 will not be
tolerated.
--
Bill Higgins | Favorite carol around Higgins house:
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory| Glooooooooooooooria
Internet: hig...@fnal.gov | In excelsis Deo
Bitnet: Sic transit gloria mundi | Deo
SPAN/Hepnet: 43009::HIGGINS | Daylight come and me wanna go home
Laurie D. T. Mann
> There are a few that were added to the canon in the Fifties and
> Sixties, like Mel Torme's "Christmas Song."
Actually, the songs from the Rudolph the Rednose Reindeer, a special
from the mid-60s, are close-to-canon: Holly Jolly Christmas and
Silver and Gold. And the song from Charlie Brown Christmas
the next year Christmastime Is Here is pretty common.
Also there's at least one John Lennon Song ("So This Is Christmas") and
the song "Let Them Know It's Christmas" that English Pop Singers
(Band-Aid
maybe?) did in about 1985.
> And then it stops.
>
> The last real Christmas "standard" I can think of[1] was "Do You Hear
> What I Hear," from 1963. [2]
>
> I'll maybe grant you "Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer" (1979).[3]
Thank you, I was going to suggest both of them.
If you are a group singer, there are some fine recent songs, but the
general
public doesn't tend to know them.
The Duquesne Chamber Singer's Christmastide CD is absolutely worth your
time
if you're a fan of interesting Christmas music sung vey well:
http://www.duq.edu/music/chambersingers/CS_Recordings.html
There's also a wonderful song: A Musicological Journey Through the
Twelve Days
of Christmas which is fairly recent (1990, I think) that has to be heard
to be believed.
> The next question is: If I am right, why?
>
> What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
> songs? What stopped the formation of consensus on which songs are
> classics-- as measured by criteria such as "played frequently on the
> radio," "recorded by many famous artists on their Xmas albums," or
> "appearing in many printed collections of Christmas songs?"
Yes to the radio issue. You only ever hear "popular" Christmas music
for a day or two on most radio stations.
--
Laurie D. T. Mann *** *** *** *** *** *** lauri...@dpsinfo.com
Dead People Server *** http://www.dpsinfo.com/index.shtml
ReasonablePeople.Net http://www.reasonablepeople.net/index.shtml
OK, OK, so I sang.
Evelyn C. Leeper
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>
> [long post deleted]
>
> I'll maybe grant you "Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer" (1979).[3]
You know two or three screens *before* I got to this line, I thought,
"But what about 'Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer'"? Great minds
think alike, as they say.
> What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
> songs? What stopped the formation of consensus on which songs are
> classics-- as measured by criteria such as "played frequently on the
> radio," "recorded by many famous artists on their Xmas albums," or
> "appearing in many printed collections of Christmas songs?"
I wonder if the trend toward diversity/multiculturalism/whatever has
led to more difficulty in getting air time for new Christmas songs.
Radio stations, for example, may figure that while the old songs are
"grandfathered" in, new songs may annoy growing parts of their
audience, or at any rate, not appeal to them.
There's a whole bunch of songs by Danny Elfman from THE NIGHTMARE
BEFORE CHRISTMAS that should achieve classic status, but haven't yet.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://www.geocities.com/evelynleeper
Golden ages always shine more brightly from a distance. -Jack Shafer
Dorothy J Heydt
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>
"Really old ones"? Those are both nineteenth century.
The _Oxford Book of Carols_ contains lots that are much older,
many of which of course don't fit within Bill's schema, which
I equate with "tunes you will hear on Muzak during December".
Here are a few pre-19thc carols that seem to have hit the big
time.
Coventry Carol, 1591.
What Child Is This? aka Greensleeves, 1642
Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming, 15th century
Away in a Manger, 15th century
Good Christian Men, Rejoice, 14th century adapted in 16th
Joy to the World, by Handel, 18th century
and of course all of Messiah, including the Easter sections....
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@lucent.com> wrote:
>
>There's a whole bunch of songs by Danny Elfman from THE NIGHTMARE
>BEFORE CHRISTMAS that should achieve classic status, but haven't yet.
Also from "How the Grinch Stole Christmas." I mean the Chuck
Jones version, not the other one, which I haven't seen; does it
have any songs?
Mark Atwood
>
> There are a few that were added to the canon in the Fifties and
> Sixties, like Mel Torme's "Christmas Song."
>
> 1965-2000, which you claim have achieved "standard" status-- would be
> mildly interesting, but not nearly so interesting as help with a
> quantitative way of proving or disproving my hypothesis. I'm not
> saying "NO songs have been added to the canon since 1965," I'm saying
> "hardly any."
I think all seasonal/solictice songs "count, so I would count FtSM
Frosty the Snowman
Put One Foot in Front of the Other
Jinglebell Rock
It's Christmas at Ground Zero
You're a Mean One, Mister Grinch
--
Mark Atwood | The summit of Mount Everest is marine limestone.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Bruce Baugh
>And then it stops.
The Christmas and seasonal collections I get from Narada, Windham Hill,
and such-like labels mix new and old music. But if one doesn't like "New
Age" and related genres, one won't hear them.
Projekt Records' two Excelsis albums have zoomed to the top of my
Christmas listening pile. They're goth (and related) performances of
carols, hymns, and other songs. They include a surprising level of
genuine respect and reverence, and a lot of talent. The second one
(which isn't A Dark Noel, but I forget what it is) includes a bunch of
recent songs.
--
Bruce Baugh, Writer of Fortune
http://www.tkau.org/
Mary Kay Kare
> In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>,
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
> >
> > [long post deleted]
> >
> > I'll maybe grant you "Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer" (1979).[3]
>
> You know two or three screens *before* I got to this line, I thought,
> "But what about 'Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer'"? Great minds
> think alike, as they say.
Indeed they do asi it was my first thought as well. And definitely my
favorite Christmas song.
>
> > What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
> > songs? What stopped the formation of consensus on which songs are
> > classics-- as measured by criteria such as "played frequently on the
> > radio," "recorded by many famous artists on their Xmas albums," or
> > "appearing in many printed collections of Christmas songs?"
>
All us baby boomers hearkening back to the 'music of our childhood' and
not interested in anything else? We are a remarkably conservative lot in
some ways.
MKK
--
Stamp out tin toys!
Mike Kozlowski
Mary Kay Kare <ka...@sirius.com> wrote:
>All us baby boomers hearkening back to the 'music of our childhood' and
>not interested in anything else? We are a remarkably conservative lot in
>some ways.
I think Christmas music is inherently conservative, because it's such a
nostalgic season. Certainly, I listen to the same Andy Williams Christmas
music that my parents always played.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Rev. Cyohtee
issued forth:
>Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey wrote:
>> There are a few that were added to the canon in the Fifties and
>> Sixties, like Mel Torme's "Christmas Song."
>
>Actually, the songs from the Rudolph the Rednose Reindeer, a special
>from the mid-60s, are close-to-canon: Holly Jolly Christmas and
>Silver and Gold. And the song from Charlie Brown Christmas
>the next year Christmastime Is Here is pretty common.
>Also there's at least one John Lennon Song ("So This Is Christmas") and
>the song "Let Them Know It's Christmas" that English Pop Singers
>(Band-Aid
>maybe?) did in about 1985.
>
Don't forget the perenial classics, Grandma Got Run Over By A
Reindeer, Christmas At Ground Zero, The Night Santa Went Crazy, and
many others that get regular play every year on shows like Dr. Demento
:)
Cyo cyo...@ucan.foad.org
Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition
203 - New customers are like razortoothed grubworms. They can be
succulent, but sometimes they can bite back.
Jo Walton
hig...@fnal.gov "Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey" writes:
> (I'm speaking of the United States. Your nation's culture may vary.)
Ours, regrettably, does.
How I _wish_ we had carols played endlessly in all the shops. Instead
we have... ghastly old pop songs. I suppose it's more non-denominational,
non-religious even, in keeping with the way we celebrate Christmas as
a secular festival in Britain. But it's impossible to go shopping at
present without hearing most, or all of the following, _all_ of which I
hate and some of which have amazing ear-worm power:
"Wish I was at home for Christmas" (Probably not real title. I could
tell you the whole lyric if you like.)
"Mistletoe and Wine"
"Jingle Bell Rock"
"Last Christmas I Gave You My Heart" ("And the very next day, you gave it
away. This year, to save me from tears, I'll give it to someone special."
Pass the sick-bag, please.)
"The Little Drummer Boy" (vaguely Christian relevant)
"When a Child is Born" (definitely Christian relevant)
"A Spaceman Came Travelling" (kind of newage Christian)
"Feed The World" -- This is in a different category from the rest because
I actually liked that originally, and because it was originally a charity
record. But I heard a muzak jingle-bells version of it in the shopping
centre this week.
Also, Sasha brought home a list of 12 songs he has to learn for the
carol service. (Optional. We're not going. But he has to learn them
anyway.) Only one of them was a real carol, "Hark the Herald Angels
Sing". The others were horrible horrible doggerel, "Light a candle,
hold a sign of hope in your hand", "Why not buy an extra present"
"Hosanna Rock", "The Broken Hearted Donkey", "No Room For Mary" (This is
one of the worst, including the lines "No room for Mary, nowhere at all,
but the world came to love the child from above that was born in a cattle
stall"), "Riding High", "Come and Join the Celabration", and "We are the
Young." That's the one I hate the most. It's like Born-again Dylan and
water. To be fair there's also a Welsh carol which may be old, though
I've never heard it before and I sure went to church a lot when I was
a kid. I wouldn't mind new songs, at least, I wouldn't mind _much_ if
they had good tunes and words at least no stupider than the ones of
the traditional ones. Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkt.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
David G. Bell
ele...@jaguar.stc.lucent.com "Evelyn C. Leeper" wrote:
> In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>,
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
> >
> > [long post deleted]
> >
> > I'll maybe grant you "Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer" (1979).[3]
>
> You know two or three screens *before* I got to this line, I thought,
> "But what about 'Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer'"? Great minds
> think alike, as they say.
>
> > What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
> > songs? What stopped the formation of consensus on which songs are
> > classics-- as measured by criteria such as "played frequently on the
> > radio," "recorded by many famous artists on their Xmas albums," or
> > "appearing in many printed collections of Christmas songs?"
>
> I wonder if the trend toward diversity/multiculturalism/whatever has
> led to more difficulty in getting air time for new Christmas songs.
> Radio stations, for example, may figure that while the old songs are
> "grandfathered" in, new songs may annoy growing parts of their
> audience, or at any rate, not appeal to them.
>
> There's a whole bunch of songs by Danny Elfman from THE NIGHTMARE
> BEFORE CHRISTMAS that should achieve classic status, but haven't yet.
Is it a change in the nature of the music business?
The Beatles did come up with some _singable_ songs, and there's always
Cliff Richard, but how much of the music out there will earworm the
audience.
Incidentally, one currently popular song in the UK is from a kid's TV
show, "Bob the Builder" -- not a Christmas song as such, but a fun,
easy, positive piece. All about building things.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
We suffer as a society and a culture when we don't pay the true value of
goods and services delivered. We create a lack of production. Less good
music is recorded if we remove the incentive to create it. -- Courtney Love
Sandra Bond
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, silping a nuclear fizz in the insurgent manner,
wrote:
>In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>
> hig...@fnal.gov "Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey" writes:
>
>> (I'm speaking of the United States. Your nation's culture may vary.)
>
>Ours, regrettably, does.
>
>How I _wish_ we had carols played endlessly in all the shops. Instead
>we have... ghastly old pop songs. I suppose it's more non-denominational,
>non-religious even, in keeping with the way we celebrate Christmas as
>a secular festival in Britain. But it's impossible to go shopping at
>present without hearing most, or all of the following, _all_ of which I
>hate and some of which have amazing ear-worm power:
>
>"Wish I was at home for Christmas" (Probably not real title. I could
>tell you the whole lyric if you like.)
>
times, but few songs could stand being played to death like that, I
agree.
You missed out the 1970s trio of blockbusters, "Merry Xmas Everyone", "I
Wish It Could Be Xmas Everyday" (would you believe these first came out
in the same year? So the latter song was never a #1 hit, though it must
have sold more and received more airplay than most #1s) and "Lonely This
Xmas". By glam-rock trio Slade, Wizzard and Mud. Part of the reason why
my fave glam-rock band is the Sweet is that they were about the only one
never to do an Xmas song.
Sandra
--
"You cannot trust the boy. His mind has been corrupted by
colours, shapes and sounds." (--The League of Gentlemen)
// sandra bond: san...@ho-street.demon.co.uk // springer for TAFF! //
Alison Hopkins
Sandra Bond wrote in message ...
>In article <976826...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, Jo Walton
><J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, silping a nuclear fizz in the insurgent manner,
>wrote:
>>In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>
>> hig...@fnal.gov "Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey" writes:
>>
>>> (I'm speaking of the United States. Your nation's culture may vary.)
>>
>>Ours, regrettably, does.
>>
>>How I _wish_ we had carols played endlessly in all the shops. Instead
>>we have... ghastly old pop songs. I suppose it's more non-denominational,
>>non-religious even, in keeping with the way we celebrate Christmas as
>>a secular festival in Britain. But it's impossible to go shopping at
>>present without hearing most, or all of the following, _all_ of which I
>>hate and some of which have amazing ear-worm power:
>>
>>"Wish I was at home for Christmas" (Probably not real title. I could
>>tell you the whole lyric if you like.)
>>
>"Stop the Cavalry". By Jonah Lewie. I actually rather like this song at
>times, but few songs could stand being played to death like that, I
>agree.
>
I like it too. The other one I like is that Pogues song, that gets terribly
rude, and I can't recall the title of. The one I can't abide is _Mistletoe
and Wine_. Has that terrible line about "children singing Christian rhyme".
Puh-leeze.
Ali
Ali
Jo Walton
san...@ho-street.demon.co.uk "Sandra Bond" writes:
> You missed out the 1970s trio of blockbusters, "Merry Xmas Everyone", "I
I haven't heard that one this year. Maybe it's been forgotten. I should
be so lucky.
> Wish It Could Be Xmas Everyday" (would you believe these first came out
> in the same year? So the latter song was never a #1 hit, though it must
> have sold more and received more airplay than most #1s)
Oh, that one, yeah. Plain forgot it. How could _anyone_ wish it could
be Christmas every day? Even if you _like_ Christmas?
and "Lonely This
> Xmas".
I really -really- hate that one. How much I hate the others pales into
insignificance compared to how much I hate that one. I will actually
leave shops that contain things I want to buy if they start playing
that one.
Thank goodness for Marks and Spencer's is all I can say, where
December remains civilised and quiet and their fast checkout says
"five items or fewer".
By glam-rock trio Slade, Wizzard and Mud. Part of the reason why
> my fave glam-rock band is the Sweet is that they were about the only one
> never to do an Xmas song.
Good for them.
Even Steeleye Span did a Christmas song. Even Jethro Tull did - and I
heard "Solstice Bells" played as muzak in the shopping centre yesterday
as well.
Soren deSelby
>
>Sandra Bond wrote in message ...
>>times, but few songs could stand being played to death like that, I
>>agree.
>>
>
>I like it too. The other one I like is that Pogues song, that gets terribly
>rude, and I can't recall the title of. The one I can't abide is _Mistletoe
>and Wine_. Has that terrible line about "children singing Christian rhyme".
>Puh-leeze.
The Pogues song is "Fairy Tale of New York," with Kirsty MacColl on guest
vocal.
I didn't know Jona Lewie had a Christmas standard; the only thing I remember
by him is "You'll Always Find Me in the Kitchen at Parties."
________
no unity with traitors
no compromise with thieves
gfa...@savvy.com
[. . .]
Gee, and I thought I'd have nothing whatever to say in this thread.
> I didn't know Jona Lewie had a Christmas standard; the only thing I remember
> by him is "You'll Always Find Me in the Kitchen at Parties."
I don't know the song, but this surely describes a lot of people.
--
Gary Farber New York
gfa...@savvy.com
David G. Bell
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" wrote:
> Also, Sasha brought home a list of 12 songs he has to learn for the
> carol service. (Optional. We're not going. But he has to learn them
> anyway.) Only one of them was a real carol, "Hark the Herald Angels
> Sing". The others were horrible horrible doggerel, "Light a candle,
> hold a sign of hope in your hand", "Why not buy an extra present"
> "Hosanna Rock", "The Broken Hearted Donkey", "No Room For Mary" (This is
> one of the worst, including the lines "No room for Mary, nowhere at all,
> but the world came to love the child from above that was born in a cattle
> stall"), "Riding High", "Come and Join the Celabration", and "We are the
> Young." That's the one I hate the most. It's like Born-again Dylan and
> water. To be fair there's also a Welsh carol which may be old, though
> I've never heard it before and I sure went to church a lot when I was
> a kid. I wouldn't mind new songs, at least, I wouldn't mind _much_ if
> they had good tunes and words at least no stupider than the ones of
> the traditional ones. Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkt.
I'm a filker.
I do strange things to songs, and distress scansion and rhyme at the
drop of a hat.
But I don't have enough sfik to even attempt a line that bad without the
excuse of provoking ridicule.
I think you need the musical equivalent of 'Ground Force'.
'Changing Tunes'?
Patrick Connors
: But I don't have enough sfik to even attempt a line that bad without the
: excuse of provoking ridicule.
: I think you need the musical equivalent of 'Ground Force'.
: 'Changing Tunes'?
That's two references to 'Ground Force' this week.
For some reason, I picture this landscaping show I saw over the
summer on BBC America (while ill). Is that what you're
referring to, or was I sicker than I realize?
--
Patrick Connors |
| Smile! The fresh air's good for your teeth.
| -- Jack Bogut, KDKA Radio, 1970s
|
Kevin J. Maroney
>"Feed The World"
I believe you mean "Do They Know It's Christmas?".
Although I like the song, I don't think it's likely to become part of
the Christmas canon in the way Bill proposes--I can't see anyone
recording a new version of it any time soon.
--
Kevin Maroney | kmar...@ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
<http://www.nyrsf.com>
Lucy Kemnitzer
<hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>Here's something that's bugged me for many years. It's about
>Christmas carols.
>
>There are a lot of Christmas songs, and people are always writing new
>ones. But the set of "standards," widely accepted, widely performed
>Christmas carols, hasn't gotten any bigger since the early 1960s.
>
When was "Feliz Navidad?" That's certainly not traditional. And
speaking of such things, there's the Robert Earl Keen Christmas
song, which isn't like a canon carol because it's not something
you can sing in groups, but I have to hear it every year. What's
it called? "Merry Christmas from the Family?" "A Texas
Christmas?" I don't know. Anyway, it has the precious lines:
"Sister's boyfriend was a Mexican
We didn't know what to make of him
Till he sang Feliz Navidad, Feliz Navidad"
I'm not remotely Texan but when the radio plays that song I always
sing along.
I like "Jingle Bell Rock" and something that might be called
"Christmas in the City" -- mostly I hate most of the modern songs
because they seem sort of smarmy, but these seem real. I mostly
like ones that are about birth and rebirth and stars and animals,
and baroque-sounding ones, but I do like "O Little Town of
Bethlehem" even though it's overtly religious, because it also
seems to be contemplating the science-fictional concepts of space
and time. That's not exactly modern, but it's not that old
either. Another modern one I've grown to like is "Little Drummer
Boy," when it's sung right. That rumpapumpum stuff can be
godawful, but if the song is sung earnestly by a person with
either a sweet new young voice and no tricks or by a ruined voice
(think somebody like Willie Nelson or even, if you could get him
to do it, Tom Waits), it can be dynamite: the narrative is so
simple and straight up and it doesn't moralize or anything at the
end.
I started to list all the songs I like and I decided that was a
silly exercise.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Ed Dravecky III
> What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
> songs? What stopped the formation of consensus on which songs are
> classics-- as measured by criteria such as "played frequently on the
> radio," "recorded by many famous artists on their Xmas albums," or
> "appearing in many printed collections of Christmas songs?"
Money. An artist can make a lot more money singing songs they
wrote (or their management wrote) than by paying for the
privilege of covering somebody else's Christmas song. Even more
on point, they can make a lot of money if their original song is
a hit than if it's one of a hundred versions of "I Saw Mommy
Kissing Santa Claus" and thus receive proportionally less airplay.
--
Ed Dravecky III
(ed3 at panix.com)
Bob Webber
> In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>,
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
> >
> > [long post deleted]
> >
> > I'll maybe grant you "Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer" (1979).[3]
> You know two or three screens *before* I got to this line, I thought,
> "But what about 'Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer'"? Great minds
> think alike, as they say.
How about "Santy's Movin' On" by Homer & Jethro? After a week or
so of the sweeter stuff I crave lines like, "You should have seen
old Santy quiver/When Ma slapped him in the face with a reindeer
liver."
--
Corflu 18 -- The Original Fanzine Fans' Convention -- Boston, Massachusetts
30 March to 1 April 2001 -- <http://world.std.com/~webber/Corflu18>
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:11:28 -0600, Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
> >
> >There are a lot of Christmas songs, and people are always writing new
> >ones. But the set of "standards," widely accepted, widely performed
> >Christmas carols, hasn't gotten any bigger since the early 1960s.
> >
>
>
> When was "Feliz Navidad?" That's certainly not traditional.
1970. It's an exception to my assertion.
I found some information about the top end of my hypothetical histogram.
Clipped rom the ASCAP site at <http://www.ascap.com/press/holiday-121598.html>:
====================
1."White Christmas"
by Irving Berlin
2."Santa Claus Is Coming to Town"
by J. Fred Coots and Haven Gillespie
3."The Christmas Song (Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire)"
by Mel Torme and Robert Wells
4."Winter Wonderland"
by Felix Bernard and Richard B. Smith
5."Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer"
by Johnny Marks
6."Sleigh Ride"
by Leroy Anderson and Mitchell Parish
7."Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas"
by Ralph Blane and Hugh Martin
8."Silver Bells"
by Jay Livingston and Ray Evans
9."Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!"
by Sammy Cahn and Jule Styne
10."Little Drummer Boy"
by Katherine K. Davis, Henry V. Onorati and Harry Simeone
11."Jingle Bell Rock"
by Joseph Carleton Beal and James Ross Boothe
12."I'll Be Home for Christmas"
by Walter Kent, Kim Gannon and Buck Ram
13."Frosty the Snow Man"
by Steve Nelson and Walter E. Rollins
14."Blue Christmas"
by Billy Hayes and Jay W. Johnson
15."Carol of the Bells"
by Peter J. Wilhousky and M. Leontovich
16."It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas"
by Meredith Willson
17."Here Comes Santa Claus (Right Down Santa Claus Lane)"
by Gene Autry and Oakley Haldeman
18."(There's No Place Like) Home for the Holidays"
by Bob Allen and Al Stillman
19."Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree"
by Johnny Marks
20."I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus"
by Tommie Connor
21."We Need a Little Christmas"
by Jerry Herman
22."The Christmas Waltz"
by Sammy Cahn and Jule Styne
23."The Chipmunk Song (Christmas Don't Be Late)"
by Ross Bagdasarian (David Seville)
24."Feliz Navidad"
by Jose Feliciano
25."A Holly Jolly Christmas"
by Johnny Marks
Some facts about the Top 25 ASCAP Holiday Songs
Oldest songs:
"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" and
"Winter Wonderland" (both 1934)
Newest Song:
"Feliz Navidad" (1970)
Songs introduced in motion pictures:
"White Christmas" in Holiday Inn (1942)
"Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" in Meet Me in St. Louis (1944)
"Silver Bells" in The Lemon Drop Kid (1950)
Songs introduced in Broadway musicals:
"We Need a Little Christmas" in Mame (1966)
Songs introduced in television specials:
"A Holly Jolly Christmas" in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer (1962)
Writer with most Top Holiday Songs:
Johnny Marks with three
("Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer,"
"Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree"
"A Holly Jolly Christmas")
Most recorded Holiday Song:
"White Christmas" with well over 500
versions in dozens of languages.
==============
The fact that "Feliz Navidad" is from 1970 tends to support my conjecture.
There are surprises here... could "The Chipmunk Song" really be recorded
more frequently than "Feliz Navidad" or "Holly Jolly?"
Traditional and out-of-copyright hymns, for which nobody needs to pay ASCAP
a fee, don't appear here.
--
Barry Gehm, contemplating | Bill Higgins
an obnoxious oldie on the jukebox: | Fermilab
"Music like this is the reason I left the Fifties." | hig...@fnal.gov
Mary Kay Kare
Kemnitzer) wrote:
> but I do like "O Little Town of
> Bethlehem" even though it's overtly religious,
I like O, Holy Night myself just because it's so beautiful.
Rob Wynne
> Another modern one I've grown to like is "Little Drummer
>Boy," when it's sung right. That rumpapumpum stuff can be
>godawful, but if the song is sung earnestly by a person with
>either a sweet new young voice and no tricks or by a ruined voice
>(think somebody like Willie Nelson or even, if you could get him
>to do it, Tom Waits), it can be dynamite: the narrative is so
>simple and straight up and it doesn't moralize or anything at the
>end.
My favourite version of that is "The Little Drummer Boy/Peace On
Earth" by Bing Crosby and David Bowie.
Rob
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
The best original science-fiction and fantasy on the web:
Aphelion Webzine: http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Gafilk 2001: Jan 5-7, 2001, Atlanta, GA -- http://www.gafilk.org
Here among the madness, don't forget it's all for dragons and stars.
--Maureen O'Brien
Mike Kozlowski
>Kemnitzer) wrote:
>
>> but I do like "O Little Town of
>> Bethlehem" even though it's overtly religious,
>
>I like O, Holy Night myself just because it's so beautiful.
Me too; although the words to the second verse are kind of creepy. I
think that may just be because I'd not heard them until recently, so they
hadn't had a chance to turn into meaningless syllables...
Richard Horton
<hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>The last real Christmas "standard" I can think of[1] was "Do You Hear
>What I Hear," from 1963.
I would argue that The Waitresses' "Christmas Wrapping" (written by
Chris Butler, 1981) is the only Rock Christmas song with a chance to
join the canon, and even it is still only heard in the original
recording.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Kip Williams
>
> In article <3a396e3c...@enews.newsguy.com>, rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy
> Kemnitzer) wrote:
>
> > but I do like "O Little Town of
> > Bethlehem" even though it's overtly religious,
>
> I like O, Holy Night myself just because it's so beautiful.
I like lots of carols. But I have a short list of them that are in
the sheet music I take places: "O Holy Night," "Rise Up Shepherd and
Follow," "The Birthday of a King," and I think I may have filled the
odd page with "In Dulci Jubilo." Partly, I have these because these
are good arrangements, and most of the other Christmas songs are
easy enough to find in the bench wherever I may be.
I also have "Jingle Bell Rock" in that music, come to think of it.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Dave Weingart
>There are a lot of Christmas songs, and people are always writing new
>ones. But the set of "standards," widely accepted, widely performed
>Christmas carols, hasn't gotten any bigger since the early 1960s.
If "Dominick the Donkey" were to dissapear tomorrow, I'd be very
happy.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Consonance 2001! Urban Tapestry!
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Mike Stein! Oh, yeah, and some guy
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux named Dave Wein-something-or-other.
ICQ 57055207 http://www.consonance.org
Irina Rempt
> How could _anyone_ wish it could
> be Christmas every day? Even if you _like_ Christmas?
As bad as always winter and never Christmas. (My daughter has started
reading the Narnia books. She's almost seven. What she really wanted to
read was Harry Potter now I've finally given the green light, but the
library has only one copy that's always checked out, and she was clever
enough to ask the librarian what else was "good like that". She's also
reading _The Secret Garden_.)
> Even Steeleye Span did a Christmas song.
_Gaudete_. I love it. So much that I hunted down the original in a
music library and transcribed it for our early-music group.
> Even Jethro Tull did - and I
> heard "Solstice Bells" played as muzak in the shopping centre
> yesterday as well.
Don't forget Simon and Garfunkel. _Go tell it on the mountains_. I love
that one as well.
Irina
--
ir...@valdyas.org
http://www.valdyas.org/irina/index.html (English)
http://www.valdyas.org/irina/backpage.html (Nederlands)
Rev. Cyohtee
>
>My favourite version of that is "The Little Drummer Boy/Peace On
>Earth" by Bing Crosby and David Bowie.
>
>Rob
I love that one, especially the video for it. Bing Crosby has this
look on his face like "Am I really this hard up for cash that I am
doing this with /him/?"
Cyo cyo...@ucan.foad.org
Elric: "You don't frighten easily."
Vir: "I work for Ambassador Mollari. After a while nothing
bothers you."
James Nicoll
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>11."Jingle Bell Rock"
> by Joseph Carleton Beal and James Ross Boothe
I have a conditioned negative reaction to that song, based on
dance lessons in junior high combined with the discovery by many of the
girls I went to school with that I was painfully shy and blushed easily.
Not that I'd bear a grudge against them, of course.
James Nicoll
--
My Pledge: No more than 2 OT posts to rasfw a day. No replying
to trolls and idiots. Start five good on topic threads a day to drown
out the crap. Drink more coffee. Cross-posting is an abomination.
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:976826...@bluejo.demon.co.uk...
> "A Spaceman Came Travelling" (kind of newage Christian)
Yes, with that wince-some line "'Twas light-years of time since his
(something something)"
--
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Soren deSelby <scr...@mtvi.com> wrote in message
news:91bhb9$3neu3$2...@ID-63441.news.dfncis.de...
> >I like it too. The other one I like is that Pogues song, that gets
> >terriblyrude, and I can't recall the title of. The one I can't abide
> >is _Mistletoe and Wine_. Has that terrible line about "children singing
> >Christian rhyme".
> >Puh-leeze.
>
> The Pogues song is "Fairy Tale of New York," with Kirsty MacColl on guest
> vocal.
Yes. Did you know that Ronan Keating (as part of his solo career away from
Boyzone) and Maire Brennan, of Clannad, who should know better, are doing a
cover of this?
They've also changed part of the throwing insults line from "you cheap lousy
faggot" to "you're cheap and you're haggard".
When I first heard of this I thought it was a spoof, since the DJ took the
opportunity to say that it had been confirmed that the "Happy Christmas, me
arse" line was still in and therefore - the arse had not been wiped. (Oh,
ha frigging ha.) Sadly, it's for real.
--
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
David G. Bell
p...@primenet.com "Patrick Connors" wrote:
> David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.org.uk> wrote:
> : But I don't have enough sfik to even attempt a line that bad without the
> : excuse of provoking ridicule.
>
> : I think you need the musical equivalent of 'Ground Force'.
>
> : 'Changing Tunes'?
>
> That's two references to 'Ground Force' this week.
> For some reason, I picture this landscaping show I saw over the
> summer on BBC America (while ill). Is that what you're
> referring to, or was I sicker than I realize?
Yep.
And an interior decorating show called "Changing Rooms"...
But you may still be sicker than you realise.
Evelyn C. Leeper
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>,
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
> >
>
> "Really old ones"? Those are both nineteenth century.
>
> The _Oxford Book of Carols_ contains lots that are much older,
> many of which of course don't fit within Bill's schema, which
> I equate with "tunes you will hear on Muzak during December".
I'm not sure how old it is, but Mark really likes "The Holly and the
Ivy."
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://www.geocities.com/evelynleeper
Golden ages always shine more brightly from a distance. -Jack Shafer
Alison Hopkins
Mary Kay Kare wrote in message ...
>In article <3a396e3c...@enews.newsguy.com>, rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy
>Kemnitzer) wrote:
>
>> but I do like "O Little Town of
>> Bethlehem" even though it's overtly religious,
>
>I like O, Holy Night myself just because it's so beautiful.
>
Two of my favourites are _IN the Bleak Midwinter_ because it's a joy to
sing, and a lovely thing that I can't remember the name of. Take one choir,
have a four part harmony on _Three Kings from Persian Lands Afar_ and then
place over it another four part harmony of _How Brightly Shines the Morning
Star_. Damnably complex to sing, and quite wonderful. Oh, and _The Coventry
Carol_ which I sang solo and unaccompanied, in a lovely old church.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Irina Rempt wrote in message <7878717.J1kTSS14mL@turenay>...
Jo Walton wrote:
> How could _anyone_ wish it could
> be Christmas every day? Even if you _like_ Christmas?
As bad as always winter and never Christmas. (My daughter has started
reading the Narnia books. She's almost seven. What she really wanted to
read was Harry Potter now I've finally given the green light, but the
library has only one copy that's always checked out, and she was clever
enough to ask the librarian what else was "good like that". She's also
reading _The Secret Garden_.)
Did you give her the Diane Duane _Wizard_ books yet?
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Rob Wynne wrote in message ...
>Lucy Kemnitzer <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> Another modern one I've grown to like is "Little Drummer
>>Boy," when it's sung right. That rumpapumpum stuff can be
>>godawful, but if the song is sung earnestly by a person with
>>either a sweet new young voice and no tricks or by a ruined voice
>>(think somebody like Willie Nelson or even, if you could get him
>>to do it, Tom Waits), it can be dynamite: the narrative is so
>>simple and straight up and it doesn't moralize or anything at the
>>end.
>
>My favourite version of that is "The Little Drummer Boy/Peace On
>Earth" by Bing Crosby and David Bowie.
Oh, yes. Kleenex time.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Evelyn C. Leeper wrote in message <91dqhf$b...@nntpa.cb.lucent.com>...
>In article <G5KMp...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>,
>> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>> >
>> >There are really old ones, like "Silent Night" or "The First Noel."
>>
>> "Really old ones"? Those are both nineteenth century.
>>
>> The _Oxford Book of Carols_ contains lots that are much older,
>> many of which of course don't fit within Bill's schema, which
>> I equate with "tunes you will hear on Muzak during December".
>
>I'm not sure how old it is, but Mark really likes "The Holly and the
>Ivy."
I *think* it's about four hundred years or more. Have you ever heard
Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_? Or the Hely-Hutchinson Carol Symphony which
I love. ObSF: it was used as the theme music for Box of Delights.
Ali
Patrick Connors
: p...@primenet.com "Patrick Connors" wrote:
: > David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.org.uk> wrote:
: > : But I don't have enough sfik to even attempt a line that bad without the
: > : excuse of provoking ridicule.
: >
: > : I think you need the musical equivalent of 'Ground Force'.
: >
: > : 'Changing Tunes'?
: >
: > That's two references to 'Ground Force' this week.
: > For some reason, I picture this landscaping show I saw over the
: > summer on BBC America (while ill). Is that what you're
: > referring to, or was I sicker than I realize?
: Yep.
: And an interior decorating show called "Changing Rooms"...
: But you may still be sicker than you realise.
Probably. Any day in which one must rent an Elvis costume
is a good day to question one's own sanity...
"My life may be strange, but at least it's not BORING"
- Nancy Lebovitz button, circa 1981. Words to live by.
Dorothy J Heydt
Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>Evelyn C. Leeper wrote in message <91dqhf$b...@nntpa.cb.lucent.com>...
>>In article <G5KMp...@kithrup.com>,
>>
>>Ivy."
>
More like three; see my other post.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@lucent.com> wrote:
>
>I'm not sure how old it is, but Mark really likes "The Holly and the
>Ivy."
I checked the _OBC_. It appears to have been first published in
1861, by a guy who claimed that he took it from "an old
broadside, printed a century and a half since,' or around 1700.
The holly and ivy have of course been tied up with Solstice
celebrations since 'way before Christianity, along with
everything else that's green during the winter, and there are
several other carols that refer to them (at least two others of
which are in the _OBC_).
Jo Walton
"Mission did start."
That's not the worst, the worst is:
"The traveller arose and said 'Do not fear. I come from a planet a
long way from here. And I have a message for mankind to hear' and
suddenly the sweetest music rang all around."
I don't think people have any idea what they are doing to me. They think
they can write their little doggerel twaddle and everyone will forget
it, they don't realise the only thing that stops it etching itself on my
brain is if I can't follow their pronunciation. (I'm not sure about the
word "arose" in the above frex.)
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Alison Hopkins
Dorothy J Heydt wrote in message ...
>In article <91dtiv$4rm$2...@lure.pipex.net>,
>Alison Hopkins <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>
>>Evelyn C. Leeper wrote in message <91dqhf$b...@nntpa.cb.lucent.com>...
>>>In article <G5KMp...@kithrup.com>,
>>>
>>>I'm not sure how old it is, but Mark really likes "The Holly and the
>>>Ivy."
>>
>>I *think* it's about four hundred years or more....
>
>More like three; see my other post.
I have gone and read it, and thanks, that's most interesting.
Ali
Avedon Carol
<hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>Here's something that's bugged me for many years. It's about
>Christmas carols.
>
>There are a lot of Christmas songs, and people are always writing new
>ones. But the set of "standards," widely accepted, widely performed
>Christmas carols, hasn't gotten any bigger since the early 1960s.
>
>(I'm speaking of the United States. Your nation's culture may vary.)
>
>There are really old ones, like "Silent Night" or "The First Noel."
>There are Tin Pan Alley ones added in the first half of the 20th
>Century, like "White Christmas," "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer," or
>"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town."
>
>There are a few that were added to the canon in the Fifties and
>Sixties, like Mel Torme's "Christmas Song."
>
>And then it stops.
>
>The last real Christmas "standard" I can think of[1] was "Do You Hear
>What I Hear," from 1963. [2]
Maybe it's different over there, "There's Something In the Air" or
whatever it's called has been pretty ever-present at xmas time since I
got here. But I don't know what carollers actually sing, since I
never hear live carollers. (You can't move very far at this time of
year without hearing "Do they know it's Xmas" and a Beatles xmas song
in the background.)
For the last week I've been croggled by seeing trailers for an
up-coming xmas special of The Three Tenors with them singing "Jingle
Bells" (in unison!). It's scary.
--
I am reading from rec.arts.sf.fandom, where I am on-topic;
follow-ups are set accordingly, just in case.
Kip Williams
> For the last week I've been croggled by seeing trailers for an
> up-coming xmas special of The Three Tenors with them singing "Jingle
> Bells" (in unison!). It's scary.
I heard as much as I need to in a review on the radio. Apparently,
Domingo really sings his songs. The other two are sort of ludicrous.
I heard a few seconds of Pavarotti singing Leroy Anderson's "Sleigh
Ride" ...
(Takes a deep breath and starts bellowing in accent) "Bi-coss the
snow ess falling and friendss are calling Hoo Hoo / Comonn iss lufly
weather for a sleigh ride togedder weet' you!"
Dreaming of a silent Christmas...
Kate Schaefer
news:h5cl3tk69n8cj168q...@4ax.com...
[...]
> For the last week I've been croggled by seeing trailers for an
> up-coming xmas special of The Three Tenors with them singing "Jingle
> Bells" (in unison!). It's scary.
A couple days ago KBCS, the Bellevue Community College radio station, played
the Boyce Hawkins Christmas medley. It's a medley of carols played very
simply and plainly on a piano, with a note wrong here and there, and there,
and there, all the wrong places perfectly chosen.
The DJ said it was a 45 that someone had found in their attic and sent to
the station, and no one knew anything more about it. When I searched on the
web, I found that a remarkable number of people named Boyce Hawkins have
lived in the United States and been part of their descendants' research, but
there are very few mentions of Boyce Hawkins, the musician.
If you run into this Christmas medley, you want it, I assure you. And if
you don't, I do.
Marilee J. Layman
I like "Sweet Little Jesus Boy," which doesn't require accompaniment.
--
Marilee J. Layman The Other*Worlds*Cafe
HOSTE...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group.
AOL Keyword: OWC http://www.webmoose.com/owc
Irina Rempt
> Did you give her the Diane Duane _Wizard_ books yet?
I would have, if she could read English or they existed in Dutch. The
same goes for most things by Diana Wynne Jones. What does exist in
Dutch (by DWJ; I don't think DD has been translated) has been done so
inadequately that when I read them in English years after I'd read them
in Dutch I was surprised to see that those were the same books.
Paul Birnbaum
>
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey wrote:
> > There are a few that were added to the canon in the Fifties and
> > Sixties, like Mel Torme's "Christmas Song."
>
> from the mid-60s, are close-to-canon: Holly Jolly Christmas and
> Silver and Gold. And the song from Charlie Brown Christmas
> the next year Christmastime Is Here is pretty common.
> Also there's at least one John Lennon Song ("So This Is Christmas") and
> the song "Let Them Know It's Christmas" that English Pop Singers
> (Band-Aid maybe?) did in about 1985.
>
Actually, it was "Do They Know It's Christmas?" but it was Band Aid.
I never considered this a particularly memorable "classic." YMMV.
> > And then it stops.
> >
> > The last real Christmas "standard" I can think of[1] was "Do You Hear
> > What I Hear," from 1963. [2]
> >
> > I'll maybe grant you "Grandma Got Run over by a Reindeer" (1979).[3]
>
> Thank you, I was going to suggest both of them.
>
> If you are a group singer, there are some fine recent songs, but the
> general public doesn't tend to know them.
>
> The Duquesne Chamber Singer's Christmastide CD is absolutely worth your
> time if you're a fan of interesting Christmas music sung vey well:
>
> http://www.duq.edu/music/chambersingers/CS_Recordings.html
>
> There's also a wonderful song: A Musicological Journey Through the
> Twelve Days of Christmas which is fairly recent (1990, I think) that
> has to be heard to be believed.
>
> > The next question is: If I am right, why?
> >
> > What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
> > songs? What stopped the formation of consensus on which songs are
> > classics-- as measured by criteria such as "played frequently on the
> > radio," "recorded by many famous artists on their Xmas albums," or
> > "appearing in many printed collections of Christmas songs?"
>
> Yes to the radio issue. You only ever hear "popular" Christmas music
> for a day or two on most radio stations.
>
Missing from all this is another more recent "classic" (so to speak...),
"The Little Drummer Boy."
I just think it takes time (measured in generations) before something new
becomes imbued in the culture, that's all.
> --
> Laurie D. T. Mann *** *** *** *** *** *** lauri...@dpsinfo.com
> Dead People Server *** http://www.dpsinfo.com/index.shtml
> ReasonablePeople.Net http://www.reasonablepeople.net/index.shtml
> OK, OK, so I sang.
Kip Williams
> Missing from all this is another more recent "classic" (so to speak...),
> "The Little Drummer Boy."
I think I saw it mentioned, but you may have posted prior to that.
In the show I was just in, "The Night Thoreau Spent In Jail," we
have the Nightmare Scene. Very 70s. Young Edward Emerson portrays a
drummer boy who is shot in the dream. Sometimes between scenes at
rehearsal, I'd sing that song. "So, we shot him / pa rum pa pum pum.
/ And his drum."
Velma J. Bowen
thanks to Scraps deSelby, I finally have the lyrics to my favorite
Christmas song, "Children Go Where I Send Thee." Those of you in New
York City may now expect to hear me singing that, with occasional
interludes of "Throw the Yule Log on Uncle John."
(I am going to my mother's apartment next week, on what would have
been my father's birthday, to decorate her tree, and having Christmas
Eve dinner with the in-laws, and the in-laws' inlaws. I believe that I
am buying a large bottle of very good scotch for Mark and me for our
own Christmas present -- we will richly deserve it.)
--
Vijay Bowen
A sense of humor is a state of grace.
Kip Williams
>
> I've been following this thread, and am now delighted to report that,
> thanks to Scraps deSelby, I finally have the lyrics to my favorite
> Christmas song, "Children Go Where I Send Thee." Those of you in New
I can sing a bunch of verses to that. We sang a number of spirituals
in grade school, for which I've always been glad in retrospect. At
the time I sang them, I was only interested in how I could make fun
of them -- which was what I did with every song I sang in school
from third to seventh grade. Unless I'm blanking on it, the height
of wit in this song was Rocky Chadwick's contribution, "Children Go
Where I Send Youse." (You've heard the best, won't miss the rest.)
> York City may now expect to hear me singing that, with occasional
> interludes of "Throw the Yule Log on Uncle John."
Ah. The Classics. (It's from a set of carols that includes "O Little
Town of Hackensack," and "Good King Kong," and is of course by
P.D.Q. Bach, folks.)
Irina Rempt
> Two of my favourites are _IN the Bleak Midwinter_ because it's a joy
> to sing,
Oh yes. I'm waiting longingly for at least one of my daughters to grow
up into a reliable soprano, so we can sing it in two parts. As it is,
I'm the only person in the house who can carry a tune, and I have to
sing at the top of my range for the other people to be able to sing
along. Two of my daughters have promising singing voices (the middle
one, alas, takes after her father, though fortunately it doesn't keep
either of them from singing when we're having a sing-song), but they're
too young to carry the tune, even together, when someone is doing
something else.
Avedon Carol
wrote:
>I've been following this thread, and am now delighted to report that,
>thanks to Scraps deSelby, I finally have the lyrics to my favorite
>Christmas song, "Children Go Where I Send Thee."
You think of that as a xmas song? I think of it as a _camp_ song.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Carol) wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:15:25 GMT, VJB...@aol.com (Velma J. Bowen)
>wrote:
>
>>I've been following this thread, and am now delighted to report that,
>>thanks to Scraps deSelby, I finally have the lyrics to my favorite
>>Christmas song, "Children Go Where I Send Thee."
>
>You think of that as a xmas song? I think of it as a _camp_ song.
>
I learned it as a Christmas song.
But I never went to camp, so I don't know any camp songs.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Rich McAllister K6RFM
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
> <much snipping>
> > What happened to stop the widespread acceptance of new Christmas
> > songs?
>
> Money. [...] they can make a lot of money if their original song is
> a hit than if it's one of a hundred versions of "I Saw Mommy
> Kissing Santa Claus"
I was gobsmacked a few years ago, when Mel Torme was still alive, to
find that he had made $500,000 every year of my life from his half-
interest in _The Christmas Song_ ("Chestnuts roasting...")
[Punctuation question: Where should I have put the full stop in
the previous sentence?]
Rich
Rich McAllister K6RFM
> Another modern one I've grown to like is "Little Drummer
> Boy," when it's sung right.
This is one which was thoroughy ruined for me by high school
chorus. Standing in the back row going "pum pum pum. pum
pum pum." Eek.
Rich
David Goldfarb
Rich McAllister K6RFM <r...@pensfa.org> wrote:
>I was gobsmacked a few years ago, when Mel Torme was still alive, to
>find that he had made $500,000 every year of my life from his half-
>interest in _The Christmas Song_ ("Chestnuts roasting...")
>
>[Punctuation question: Where should I have put the full stop in
>the previous sentence?]
I would place it right after the second underscore. (While we're on
the subject of punctuation, isn't it usually Not Done to break a
hyphenated phrase such as "half-interest" across two lines?)
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | It wastes your time and annoys the pedant."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
aste...@slip.net | -- Lois McMaster Bujold
Kip Williams
>
> In article <xl9ae9v...@shell19.ba.best.com>,
> Rich McAllister K6RFM <r...@pensfa.org> wrote:
> >I was gobsmacked a few years ago, when Mel Torme was still alive, to
> >find that he had made $500,000 every year of my life from his half-
> >interest in _The Christmas Song_ ("Chestnuts roasting...")
> >
> >[Punctuation question: Where should I have put the full stop in
> >the previous sentence?]
>
> I would place it right after the second underscore. (While we're on
> the subject of punctuation, isn't it usually Not Done to break a
> hyphenated phrase such as "half-interest" across two lines?)
I'm guessing the computer done it.
gfa...@savvy.com
> David Goldfarb wrote:
[. . .]
>> I would place it right after the second underscore. (While we're on
>> the subject of punctuation, isn't it usually Not Done to break a
>> hyphenated phrase such as "half-interest" across two lines?)
> I'm guessing the computer done it.
I blame society.
--
Gary Farber New York
gfa...@savvy.com
Mike Kozlowski
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Rich McAllister K6RFM <r...@pensfa.org> wrote:
>>I was gobsmacked a few years ago, when Mel Torme was still alive, to
>>find that he had made $500,000 every year of my life from his half-
>>interest in _The Christmas Song_ ("Chestnuts roasting...")
>>
>>[Punctuation question: Where should I have put the full stop in
>>the previous sentence?]
>
>I would place it right after the second underscore.
I'd have put it after the closing parenthesis.
>(While we're on
>the subject of punctuation, isn't it usually Not Done to break a
>hyphenated phrase such as "half-interest" across two lines?)
Not that I've noticed, but I have no style guide to back that up.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Bernard Peek
>In article <xl9ae9v...@shell19.ba.best.com>,
>Rich McAllister K6RFM <r...@pensfa.org> wrote:
>>I was gobsmacked a few years ago, when Mel Torme was still alive, to
>>find that he had made $500,000 every year of my life from his half-
>>interest in _The Christmas Song_ ("Chestnuts roasting...")
>>
>>[Punctuation question: Where should I have put the full stop in
>>the previous sentence?]
>
>I would place it right after the second underscore. (While we're on
>the subject of punctuation, isn't it usually Not Done to break a
>hyphenated phrase such as "half-interest" across two lines?)
Hyphenation can be dangerous. This week's issue of Media Week has an
editorial about the Media Guardian site (www.mediaguardian.co.uk) but
their three-column layout makes it very difficult to fit that in. In
each place where they quoted the URL it was hyphenated as www.media-
guardian.co.uk, and that's a very different domain.
www.mediaguardian.co.uk is the media section of The Grauniad where media
professionals go to catch up on the latest parish gossip. www.media-
guardian.co.uk is for a group who try to track abuse by the media.
Red faces all round next week, I think.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
b...@shrdlu.co.uk
Nancy Lebovitz
Patrick Connors <p...@primenet.com> wrote:
>David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.org.uk> wrote:
>: On 14 Dec, in article <91bmf9$c87$4...@nnrp1.phx.gblx.net>
>: p...@primenet.com "Patrick Connors" wrote:
>
>: > David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.org.uk> wrote:
>: > : But I don't have enough sfik to even attempt a line that bad without the
>: > : excuse of provoking ridicule.
>: >
>: > : I think you need the musical equivalent of 'Ground Force'.
>: >
>: > : 'Changing Tunes'?
>: >
>: > That's two references to 'Ground Force' this week.
>: > For some reason, I picture this landscaping show I saw over the
>: > summer on BBC America (while ill). Is that what you're
>: > referring to, or was I sicker than I realize?
>
>: Yep.
>
>: And an interior decorating show called "Changing Rooms"...
>
>: But you may still be sicker than you realise.
>
>Probably. Any day in which one must rent an Elvis costume
>is a good day to question one's own sanity...
>
>
>"My life may be strange, but at least it's not BORING"
> - Nancy Lebovitz button, circa 1981. Words to live by.
>
it being better to be a Mongol than a Scadian. It goes to "The
Ashgrove."
I don't know the rest of it, but the following line is
"And if you have knives, you've no need for a crown".
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Nancy Lebovitz
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.001214...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>
> hig...@fnal.gov "Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey" writes:
>
>> (I'm speaking of the United States. Your nation's culture may vary.)
>
>
>How I _wish_ we had carols played endlessly in all the shops. Instead
>we have... ghastly old pop songs. I suppose it's more non-denominational,
>non-religious even, in keeping with the way we celebrate Christmas as
>a secular festival in Britain. But it's impossible to go shopping at
>present without hearing most, or all of the following, _all_ of which I
>hate and some of which have amazing ear-worm power:
Not that I'd be encouraging you to write comic poetry or anything, but
a couple of those sound like they could be parodied.
>
>"Mistletoe and Wine"
Isn't mistletoe a poison?
>
>"Last Christmas I Gave You My Heart" ("And the very next day, you gave it
>away. This year, to save me from tears, I'll give it to someone special."
>Pass the sick-bag, please.)
>
Could this possibly be about a ghoul?
Dorothy J Heydt
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> wrote:
>>
>>"My life may be strange, but at least it's not BORING"
>> - Nancy Lebovitz button, circa 1981. Words to live by.
>>
>Thanks for the reference--the line is from a Dark Horde song about
>it being better to be a Mongol than a Scadian. It goes to "The
>Ashgrove."
>
>I don't know the rest of it, but the following line is
>
>"And if you have knives, you've no need for a crown".
It's about a young woman who met a Mongol and followed him to
adventure, and one line reads
"He had me, I had him, then we had each other,"
And I *think* the next line is something about their having a
baby, but I wouldn't swear to it.
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:15:25 GMT, VJB...@aol.com (Velma J. Bowen)
> wrote:
>
> >I've been following this thread, and am now delighted to report that,
> >thanks to Scraps deSelby, I finally have the lyrics to my favorite
> >Christmas song, "Children Go Where I Send Thee."
>
> You think of that as a xmas song? I think of it as a _camp_ song.
It's both. And it will always bring back the memory of Christmas 1972 to
me.
--
Bill Higgins | Favorite carol around Higgins house:
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory| Glooooooooooooooria
Internet: HIG...@FNAL.GOV| In excelsis Deo
| Deo
| Daylight come and me wanna go home
Avram Grumer
Lebovitz) quoted a Dark Horde song:
> "And if you have knives, you've no need for a crown".
A crown can command knives far more readily than knives can command a crown.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | www.PigsAndFishes.org
If music be the food of love, then some of it be the Twinkies of
dysfunctional relationships.
Avedon Carol
wrote:
Well, the main thing is, it was in the summer.
Evelyn C. Leeper
| In excelsis Deo
| Deo
| Daylight come and me wanna go home
Mark's too.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://www.geocities.com/evelynleeper
Golden ages always shine more brightly from a distance. -Jack Shafer
Jo Walton
na...@unix3.netaxs.com "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
Oh yes, I like it _much_ better than way. Or even a vampire.
It doesn't even need changing.
("Last Christmas, I wrapped it up and sent it,
with a note saying "I love you", I meant it...")
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Dorothy J Heydt
Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@lucent.com> wrote:
>In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.00121...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>,
>Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>> --
>| Favorite carol around Higgins house:
>| Glooooooooooooooria
>| In excelsis Deo
>| Deo
>| Daylight come and me wanna go home
>
>Mark's too.
Whereas in the West Kingdom of the SCA we tend to sing,
Day-o!
Day-o!
Deo gratias, Anglia......
Nancy Lebovitz
Avram Grumer <av...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>In article <91jjn4$3...@netaxs.com>, na...@unix3.netaxs.com (Nancy
>Lebovitz) quoted a Dark Horde song:
>
>> "And if you have knives, you've no need for a crown".
>
>A crown can command knives far more readily than knives can command a crown.
>
That's boringly true in the real world. However, another real world
feature/bug is that a lot of people like fantasizing that they have
the knives and can command kings.
In any case, I think the point of the song is that in the SCA, if you're
a Mongol, you have no emotional interest in being royal. IIRC, the
Mongols (and the Dorsai Irregulars) had a lot of songs of group
self-congratulation.
Harry Payne
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>>"Stop the Cavalry". By Jonah Lewie. I actually rather like this song at
>>times, but few songs could stand being played to death like that, I
>>agree.
>>
>
>I like it too. The other one I like is that Pogues song, that gets terribly
>rude, and I can't recall the title of. The one I can't abide is _Mistletoe
>and Wine_. Has that terrible line about "children singing Christian rhyme".
>Puh-leeze.
"Roodmas time, tentacles and slime,
"Children committing unspeakable crimes..."
- Zander Nyrond effortlessly extracting the urine (not to mention the
bone marrow) from Cliff Richard.
As one of RASSEF's resident heavy metal hippies, I cast one vote for
Greg Lake's "I believe in Father Christmas". And another for Steve
Taylor's mariachi version of "Walking in a Winter Wonderland".
--
Harry
Harry Payne
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>Two of my favourites are _IN the Bleak Midwinter_ because it's a joy to
>have a four part harmony on _Three Kings from Persian Lands Afar_ and then
>place over it another four part harmony of _How Brightly Shines the Morning
>Star_. Damnably complex to sing, and quite wonderful. Oh, and _The Coventry
>Carol_ which I sang solo and unaccompanied, in a lovely old church.
>
Who can tell what other cradle
High above the Milky Way
Still may rock the King of Heaven
On another Christmas day?
- Sydney Carter
SFnal enough?
--
Harry
Kip Williams
>
> In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.00121...@fsgi02.fnal.gov>,
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
> > --
> | Favorite carol around Higgins house:
> | Glooooooooooooooria
> | In excelsis Deo
> | Deo
> | Daylight come and me wanna go home
>
> Mark's too.
I refer the music-lover to PDQ Bach's "Missa Hilarious." Which
contains a neatly-timed "Gloria, in excelsis de- e-e-e- e-e-e-
e-e-o," along with a later line "Gloria! I've just met a girl named
Gloria!" and a fairly lovely section where the choir is singing
"Gloria, Gloria, Gloria / sock it to me sock it to me / Gloria,
Gloria..."
In fact, all the really good parts in the Missa are in the first two
sections, and my favorite part is the opening Kyrie -- actually,
owing to the dialect employed, it's the Yriekay -- containing the
unforgettable line "Kriste! Kriste! Jesu H. Kriste!"
Patrick Connors
: Patrick Connors <p...@primenet.com> wrote:
: >Probably. Any day in which one must rent an Elvis costume
: >is a good day to question one's own sanity...
: >
: >
: >"My life may be strange, but at least it's not BORING"
: > - Nancy Lebovitz button, circa 1981. Words to live by.
: >
: Thanks for the reference--the line is from a Dark Horde song about
: it being better to be a Mongol than a Scadian. It goes to "The
: Ashgrove."
Thus explaining the calligraphy style. Perhaps I ought to
dig up the lyrics. I think Ioseph of Locksley has them
on his Website. At least I'd be surprised if he didn't.
--
Patrick Connors |
| Smile! The fresh air's good for your teeth.
| -- Jack Bogut, KDKA Radio, 1970s
|
Bruce Baugh
>I refer the music-lover to PDQ Bach's "Missa Hilarious." Which
This is a gorgeous, almost dangerous work.
--
Bruce Baugh, Writer of Fortune <*> http://www.tkau.org/
I'm a professional vulture/haruspex, presenting pop culture's entrails
to the world as nicely arranged hors d'ouevres. Er, I mean, I'm a writer.
Kip Williams
>
> In article <3A3E937B...@home.com>, Kip Williams <ki...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >I refer the music-lover to PDQ Bach's "Missa Hilarious." Which
>
> This is a gorgeous, almost dangerous work.
Mmmmm. I may listen to the Yriekay and Gloria sometime today.
Alison Hopkins
Harry Payne wrote in message ...
Oh, yes, and lovely with it. Where can I get the rest of this!
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Harry Payne wrote in message ...
><fn...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>>>"Stop the Cavalry". By Jonah Lewie. I actually rather like this song at
>>>times, but few songs could stand being played to death like that, I
>>>agree.
>>>
>>
>>I like it too. The other one I like is that Pogues song, that gets
terribly
>>rude, and I can't recall the title of. The one I can't abide is _Mistletoe
>>and Wine_. Has that terrible line about "children singing Christian
rhyme".
>>Puh-leeze.
>
>"Roodmas time, tentacles and slime,
>"Children committing unspeakable crimes..."
>
>- Zander Nyrond effortlessly extracting the urine (not to mention the
>bone marrow) from Cliff Richard.
Quite glorious, and a far better lyric. It actually *scans*.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Irina Rempt wrote in message <7457927.s6NT5m02eO@turenay>...
Alison Hopkins wrote:
> Did you give her the Diane Duane _Wizard_ books yet?
I would have, if she could read English or they existed in Dutch. The
same goes for most things by Diana Wynne Jones. What does exist in
Dutch (by DWJ; I don't think DD has been translated) has been done so
inadequately that when I read them in English years after I'd read them
in Dutch I was surprised to see that those were the same books.
Irina
Ach, of course. I am perfectly aware that you're Dutch, but my brain tends
to read your posts, and forget that you a) aren't a native English speaker,
and b) that your daughter still has to become as fluent as you are!
Ali
Del Cotter
It is a far, far better thing
--
. . . . Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk . . . .
JustRead:enBaxterSilverhair:KSRobinsonTheGoldCoast:IainMBanksLookToWindward:
ToRead:DorothyDunnettQueen'sPlay:DodieSmithICaptureTheCastle:JackWomackAmbie
Del Cotter
>I was gobsmacked a few years ago, when Mel Torme was still alive, to
>find that he had made $500,000 every year of my life from his half-
>interest in _The Christmas Song_ ("Chestnuts roasting...")
>
>[Punctuation question: Where should I have put the full stop in
>the previous sentence?]
It's the brackets that always flummox me, and I do what you do, which is
to give up on a full stop altogether.
Formally, I consider the string
" (<content>) "
to take the place of
". "
Dorothy J Heydt
Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Who can tell what other cradle
>>High above the Milky Way
>>Still may rock the King of Heaven
>>On another Christmas day?
>>
>>- Sydney Carter
>>
>>SFnal enough?
>
>It is a far, far better thing
No, a different Sidney Carter. He also wrote the original, that
is, the Christian version of "Lord of the Dance" to the tune of
"Simple Gifts."
He also wrote a thing called "Judas and Mary" to which I
successfully filked a poem for the winner of an SCA tournament
when I was Bard of the Mists.
And I'd love to know the tune/complete text of the above quoted
one, too.
P Nielsen Hayden
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <zPgkI9IOu9P6Ew$w...@branta.demon.co.uk>,
>Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>Who can tell what other cradle
>>>High above the Milky Way
>>>Still may rock the King of Heaven
>>>On another Christmas day?
>>>
>>>- Sydney Carter
>>>
>>>SFnal enough?
>>
>>It is a far, far better thing
>
>No, a different Sidney Carter. He also wrote the original, that
>is, the Christian version of "Lord of the Dance" to the tune of
>"Simple Gifts."
The original, period. The "pagan" version, which amazing numbers of
people appear to think is centuries old, is a modern rip on Carter's
original.
Sydney Carter is a marvelous songwriter. He comes out of a Christian
mystical tradition, but he is an utter original -- a voice from a
brilliant alternate world where Christianity celebrates the body and
stands in ferocious opposition to authority and privilege. If there
is a better anarchist song than Sydney Carter's "John Ball," I am
unaware of it.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Dorothy J Heydt
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>Sydney Carter is a marvelous songwriter. He comes out of a Christian
>mystical tradition, but he is an utter original -- a voice from a
>brilliant alternate world where Christianity celebrates the body and
>stands in ferocious opposition to authority and privilege. If there
>is a better anarchist song than Sydney Carter's "John Ball," I am
>unaware of it.
Based on the few songs of his I've seen, I agree. Does he have a
collection published somewhere, or online? (I've found his stuff
only in whatever hymnal they were making us use that year.)
Mike Rennie
Del Cotter wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, in rec.arts.sf.fandom,
> Rich McAllister K6RFM <r...@pensfa.org> wrote:
>
> >I was gobsmacked a few years ago, when Mel Torme was still alive, to
> >find that he had made $500,000 every year of my life from his half-
> >interest in _The Christmas Song_ ("Chestnuts roasting...")
> >
> >[Punctuation question: Where should I have put the full stop in
> >the previous sentence?]
>
After asking around the department I the consensus was (and my memory of
Grammer recalled), that the full stop be placed after the closing brackets.
If however there had been a complete sentence within the peranthesis then a
full stop should have gone before the opening bracket and before the closing
one ie.
James walked to the shop. (It was something he often did.)
Mind you the use of grammer is changinging so I may be wrong
Sparks
P Nielsen Hayden
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>Sydney Carter is a marvelous songwriter. He comes out of a Christian
>>mystical tradition, but he is an utter original -- a voice from a
>>brilliant alternate world where Christianity celebrates the body and
>>stands in ferocious opposition to authority and privilege. If there
>>is a better anarchist song than Sydney Carter's "John Ball," I am
>>unaware of it.
>
>Based on the few songs of his I've seen, I agree. Does he have a
>collection published somewhere, or online? (I've found his stuff
>only in whatever hymnal they were making us use that year.)
I mostly know his work through an album from the late 1970s called
LOVELY IN THE DANCES: SONGS OF SYDNEY CARTER, featuring performers
like John Kirkpatrick, Maddy Prior, Melanie Harrold, etc. It appears
to be available on CD at
<http://www.camsco.com/artists/cartersy.html>.
Loren MacGregor
>
> Sydney Carter is a marvelous songwriter. He comes out of a Christian
> mystical tradition, but he is an utter original -- a voice from a
> brilliant alternate world where Christianity celebrates the body and
> stands in ferocious opposition to authority and privilege. If there
> is a better anarchist song than Sydney Carter's "John Ball," I am
> unaware of it.
Confession time: I've been skimming. But has anyone brought up
"Stand Up For Judas" by Leon Rosselson? Not a Christmas song, but
worth hearing.
-- LJM
Rob Wynne
>people appear to think is centuries old, is a modern rip on Carter's
>original.
I've not actually met any pagans who really think that that song is
centuries old, and I know a lot of them.
On the matter of the religion itself, yes. But most realize that
the song is a modern construct. (It's actually one of the better
ones, too. A lot of pagan songs are very poor rips of earlier
Christian songs. Most of the best pagan songs i've heard were
actually written with all original music.)
Rob
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
The best original science-fiction and fantasy on the web:
Aphelion Webzine: http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Gafilk 2001: Jan 5-7, 2001, Atlanta, GA -- http://www.gafilk.org
Here among the madness, don't forget it's all for dragons and stars.
--Maureen O'Brien
Dorothy J Heydt
Rob Wynne <d...@america.net> wrote:
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>>The original, period. The "pagan" version, which amazing numbers of
>>people appear to think is centuries old, is a modern rip on Carter's
>>original.
>
>I've not actually met any pagans who really think that that song is
>centuries old, and I know a lot of them.
I have met some who *act* as if they thought the song was
centuries old. But they are very young and maybe haven't done
any research.
Harry Payne
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>
>Harry Payne wrote in message ...
>>High above the Milky Way
>>Still may rock the King of Heaven
>>On another Christmas day?
>>
>>- Sydney Carter
>>
>>SFnal enough?
>
>
>Oh, yes, and lovely with it. Where can I get the rest of this!
Some hymn book, somewhere. The book I lifted the quote from credits it
as: (c)1961 Galliard Ltd. From `Songs of Sydney Carter in the present
tense', Book 3. Printed by permission of Stainer & Bell Ltd.
And that _is_ Sydney with a "y" (it says here).
BBC2's Christmas edition of "Top of the Pops 2" was on tonight. All the
old pop favourites, including Bing, and the late lamented Kirsty McColl
duetting with Shane McGowan on "Fairytale of new York". Be warned, it
closed with a new medley of "I wish it could be Christmas every day",
and "Wombling Merry Christmas", by the Wombles and Roy Wood. Actually,
it wasn't so much a medley as a train wreck...
--
Harry
"I am Weasel! If you doubt it, a demonstration can be arranged!"
Alison Hopkins
P Nielsen Hayden wrote in message ...
I shall order this! Thank you.
Ali
Rob Wynne
>ones. But the set of "standards," widely accepted, widely performed
>Christmas carols, hasn't gotten any bigger since the early 1960s.
Interestingly, this was discussed on Morning Edition this morning (Friday,
12/22):
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/me/20001222.me.15.rmm
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>>There are a lot of Christmas songs, and people are always writing new
>>ones. But the set of "standards," widely accepted, widely performed
>>Christmas carols, hasn't gotten any bigger since the early 1960s.
>
>Interestingly, this was discussed on Morning Edition this morning (Friday,
>12/22):
>
>http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/me/20001222.me.15.rmm
>
Yes, I heard that too, and I recall being really irritated with a
bunch of the things the guy said and increasingly annoyed that he
never mentioned Robert Earl Keen's song though he played snippets
of about five that I've never heard and never want to. The one by
the guy from Devo sounded interesting, though.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Diane Duane
>Day-o!
>
>Day-o!
>
>Deo gratias, Anglia......
Peter had this version of the Agincourt Carol sung for him at Darkover just now,
to his absolute delight (he has about four different versions of it, each more
pugnacious than the last). I laughed so hard I cried: it was one of those
great moments like discovering that Emily Dickinson's poems can be sung to "The
Yellow Rose of Texas".
Best! -- Diane
The Owl Springs Partnership / County Wicklow, Ireland
Under construction: http://www.owlsprings.com
Until 12/31/00, or maybe longer:
http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~owls/index2.html
Rachel Brown
> Peter had this version of the Agincourt Carol sung for him at Darkover
just now,
> to his absolute delight (he has about four different versions of it, each
more
> pugnacious than the last). I laughed so hard I cried: it was one of
those
> great moments like discovering that Emily Dickinson's poems can be sung
to "The
> Yellow Rose of Texas".
Did Branagh's _Henry V_ use the Agincourt Carol at any point? Or would
that have been out of period?
By the way, Diane, did you get my e-mail? Are you coming to L.A?
Rachel