Asperger's, autism and fandom
Mitch Wagner
Asperger's syndrome, which is related to autism, and how prevalent it might
be in fandom. The discussion was damped out by some psychological
professionals who said that they were familiar both with fans and with
Asperger's patients and fans are WAY more social than Asperger's patients.
The New York Times Magazine carries an interesting article on Asperger's
today. It's at http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000618mag-
asperger.html .
Asperger's is signified by a lack of social skills, high verbal
proficiency, and an obsession with learning facts about a favorite
specialization. Asperger's children are described as talking like little
professors.
An Asperger's patient might know all the birthdays of all the member's of
congress, or a great deal of information about fast-food deep-frying
machines. And yet one classroom for Asperger's kids has a diagram on the
wall to show the kids what different facial expressions look like--the kids
literally are unable to tell when another person is happy, or sad, or
angry, by looking at that other person's face; the kids have to learn that
skill in school.
Parts of the article focus on Asa, a child with Asperger's, his father
Phil, who was recently diagnosed with Asperger's, and Asa's mother, Lise,
who has separated from Phil but still seems very fond of him.
" 'Phil and Asa,' she adds affectionately, 'are very similar. They can tell
you how to get to the moon, but not to their own rooms. I think Phil would
agree with that.'
...
"Asa was always verbally adroit, his parents recall; he spoke his first
words at 7 months. At the same time, however, potty training and learning
to get dressed were arduous chores. Asa also suffered from a common
Asperger's affliction known as auditory hyperactivity, meaning an inability
to tolerate noise; he used to sit through entire movies with his hands over
his ears. Asa also suffered from irrational fears, scared even by the
popping of soap bubbles."
When I was a kid, I was afraid of grass - my mother used to talk about how
she'd put me on the front lawn when I was a year old or less than that, and
I'd scream and scream in terror. These days, I can take grass or leave it,
walking barefoot on a grassy lawn is pleasant but on the other hand I
haven't done it in years. But really really big snaky plants strike me as
creepy. In the fourth or fifth grade we had to dissect sunflowers, and I
had to will myself to touch them. I have no idea why this is.
I didn't walk until I was nearly two years old, but on the other hand I was
a very verbal little toddler. (And when I finally did walk, it wasn't a few
tentative steps like most toddlers; I just got up and went for a stroll
around the house. Two or three years ago my mother told me about this
and she asked me if I remembered why I didn't walk until so late, and why
my walking skills apparently were fully developed when they finally
manifested. I had no memory whatsoever of the incident, but I remembered
the joke about the kid who didn't talk until he was 13 years old, and I
said, "Maybe everything I needed was already within reach, before.")
And no, I don't think I have Asperger's or autism, but I do think that
mental illneses like those two and others are simply amplifications of
conditions which all people have. I have always marvelled at some people's
abilities to read other people's moods and faces and make other people like
them.
More from the article:
"'Almost from the beginning,' Lise admits, 'I knew that Asa was different.
My conversations with him aren't like normal adult-child ones. Instead, Asa
fires off research questions. He never goes in for small talk of any kind.
There's no reciprocity or bantering trivia. He's too focused. With him,
talking is not really a conversation.'"
The article also talks about one Asperger's patient named Mark, who is
obsessed with Hawaii.
"The [mainland United States], for Mark, seems to be the realm of a suspect
normality filled with what Asperger's people often call 'typicals' -- those
who are neurotypical or, to use the outlawed word, normal.... "
--
Mitch Wagner
Laurie D. T. Mann
> I think it was here a couple of years ago that some people were discussing
> Asperger's syndrome, which is related to autism, and how prevalent it might
> be in fandom. The discussion was damped out by some psychological
> professionals who said that they were familiar both with fans and with
> Asperger's patients and fans are WAY more social than Asperger's patients.
>
> proficiency, and an obsession with learning facts about a favorite
> specialization. Asperger's children are described as talking like little
> professors.
Thanks for including this.
Ironically, I was talking to someone about this just yesterday.
I did a bunch of research on Asperger's a few years back. I do think
if it is not extremely prevelent in fandom, a high percentage of fans
have a condition that is extremely similar to Asperger's.
> Asa also suffered from irrational fears, scared even by the
> popping of soap bubbles."
I know one fannish kid who had a completely irrational fear of insects.
I know another one with an irrational fear of answering the telephone
(though she seems a little better about that these days).
Loren MacGregor
>
> I know one fannish kid who had a completely irrational fear of insects.
> I know another one with an irrational fear of answering the telephone
> (though she seems a little better about that these days).
I used to have a terror of entering a place I'd never been before
-unless- someone I knew was with me the first time. As far as I
know, it had nothing to do with shyness; it was morbid and weird and
I kidded myself about it a lot -- but I got very good at scoping out
places I thought I -might- like to go and figuring out ways to just
happen by when I was in the company of someone who would believe my,
"Oh, that place looks interesting -- let's pop in and see what it's
like" was actually spontaneous.
As more than one person has remarked, "You must have made life Hell
for your parents."
-- LJM
P Nielsen Hayden
Mitch Wagner <mit...@sff.net> wrote:
>And no, I don't think I have Asperger's or autism, but I do think that
>mental illneses like those two and others are simply amplifications of
>conditions which all people have.
This was always my point; not that fans are as screwed-up as full-fledged
autistics, but that there does seem to be a "cast of mine" common in fandom
which looks a lot like a _very_ mild case of some of the same symptoms.
I never meant this observation to "pathologize" fans. As Oliver Sacks has
repeatedly shown, what's "pathological" and what isn't is very much a matter
of context.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>This was always my point; not that fans are as screwed-up as full-fledged
>autistics, but that there does seem to be a "cast of mine" common in fandom
>which looks a lot like a _very_ mild case of some of the same symptoms.
>
>I never meant this observation to "pathologize" fans. As Oliver Sacks has
>repeatedly shown, what's "pathological" and what isn't is very much a matter
>of context.
What i've been seeing is that there are people in fandom and similair
groups who notice the symptoms of autism or asperger, recognise them and
take pride in them. A sort of fan chic.
Martin Wisse
--
The series makes me think of those websites which keeps
opening new browser windows, and each of those windows
spawns more windows, until the whole system locks up.
Dan Krashin [about the Wheel of Time series]
Margaretewelsh
Nielsen Hayden) writes:
>Mitch Wagner <mit...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>>And no, I don't think I have Asperger's or autism, but I do think that
>>mental illneses like those two and others are simply amplifications of
>>conditions which all people have.
>
>
>This was always my point; not that fans are as screwed-up as full-fledged
>autistics, but that there does seem to be a "cast of mine" common in fandom
>which looks a lot like a _very_ mild case of some of the same symptoms.
>
>I never meant this observation to "pathologize" fans. As Oliver Sacks has
>repeatedly shown, what's "pathological" and what isn't is very much a matter
>of context.
>
>--
>Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
my nephew has Asperger's, and i have to say strange fannish behavior isn't
Asperger's as i know it. on the other hand, if you view it as part of a
spectrum, from autistic, and then Asperger's, maybe there is an 'Asperger's
Lite'.
MLG
<mit...@sff.net> writes
>I think it was here a couple of years ago that some people were discussing
>Asperger's syndrome, which is related to autism, and how prevalent it might
>be in fandom. The discussion was damped out by some psychological
>professionals who said that they were familiar both with fans and with
>Asperger's patients and fans are WAY more social than Asperger's patients.
Not how I remember the posts... I'm sure that what was said was that
Mary Kay didn't have Asperger's.
<For those interested, it's pronounced with a soft 'g' - asperjers.
I've spent ages using the hard 'g', and recently discovered the correct
method.>
But I also have recollections of us saying that we had no doubt that
fandom had it's fair share of people with the syndrome.
But the point still remains - people with Asperger's are usually
offensive in their lack of social skills. Not in the rude way, but in
the 'so unskilled they drive you mad and then don't notice it' way.
And yes, fandom has many of them too!
There is a line between 'unskilled' in social situations, and totally
not on the same planet with social skills. People with Asperger's tend
to cross that line in quantum leaps. Such as a 12 year old who will
speak to his 3 year old sister, his mother, his headteacher and his peer
group in exactly the same register - not noticing that all of the groups
want to take his head off for he isn't talking to _any_ of them in an
appropriate way. Who is then incapable of changing their behaviour when
it's discussed, because the area of the brain that filters social
functions and monitors their own behaviour according to the 'norm'
that's being taught them, just isn't functioning correctly.
Most fans I know of who display some aspects of Asperger's are well
capable of learning to change their behaviour, which means, effectively,
that they don't have Asperger's. They may have areas in common, but
their very functionality in a highly diverse and challenging environment
means it isn't Asperger's.
You don't have to have Asperger's to be shy, socially awkward,
obsessional and irritating. B/u/t//i/t//h/e/l/p/s/./
--
Morgan
Come to the edge, he said.
They said: We are afraid.
Come to the edge, he said.
They came.
He pushed them...
... and they flew. Guillaume Apollinaire
Andrew Plotkin
> But the point still remains - people with Asperger's are usually
> offensive in their lack of social skills. Not in the rude way, but in
> the 'so unskilled they drive you mad and then don't notice it' way.
>
> And yes, fandom has many of them too!
>
> There is a line between 'unskilled' in social situations, and totally
> not on the same planet with social skills.
Well, no. There's a broad continuum.
> People with Asperger's tend
> to cross that line in quantum leaps. Such as a 12 year old who will
> speak to his 3 year old sister, his mother, his headteacher and his peer
> group in exactly the same register - not noticing that all of the groups
> want to take his head off for he isn't talking to _any_ of them in an
> appropriate way. Who is then incapable of changing their behaviour when
> it's discussed, because the area of the brain that filters social
> functions and monitors their own behaviour according to the 'norm'
> that's being taught them, just isn't functioning correctly.
>
> Most fans I know of who display some aspects of Asperger's are well
> capable of learning to change their behaviour, which means, effectively,
> that they don't have Asperger's. They may have areas in common, but
> their very functionality in a highly diverse and challenging environment
> means it isn't Asperger's.
As usual, most things labelled "mental disorders" exist on a bell curve,
and most of the bell curve is within "functional" -- ie, not a disorder.
It's still worth noting a common trait, and seeing what it's associated
with.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Laurie D. T. Mann
> my nephew has Asperger's, and i have to say strange fannish behavior isn't
> Asperger's as i know it. on the other hand, if you view it as part of a
> spectrum, from autistic, and then Asperger's, maybe there is an 'Asperger's
> Lite'.
Yeah, though the descriptions I've read of Asperger's make it
sound like "autism lite."
Mike Rennie
> As usual, most things labelled "mental disorders" exist on a bell curve,
> and most of the bell curve is within "functional" -- ie, not a disorder.
> It's still worth noting a common trait, and seeing what it's associated
> with.
>
It's generally accepted that all behaviourt/traits/ states etc are on a
standard population curve (bell curve) not just "mental disorders". it could
be argued and it is, that fans may have a population that is skewed to one
end or another of any given curve.
I was interested in the unreasonable phobia thing. It was recently argued
here about phobias. (which by there nature TEND to be irrational) but just
because you suffer from one condition does not exclude you from suffering
from others. hence Asperger sufferers may also suffer from phobias, anxiety
attacks depression etc etc.
Right backt to perfectionism and stress :-(
Sparks
Mary Kay Kare
<mor...@dreyfuss.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Most fans I know of who display some aspects of Asperger's are well
> capable of learning to change their behaviour, which means, effectively,
> that they don't have Asperger's. They may have areas in common, but
> their very functionality in a highly diverse and challenging environment
> means it isn't Asperger's.
This certainly fits my best candidate, Jordin. He claims that facial
expressions, body language, and the subtler nuances of non-verbal
communication are something he never learned. Yet he functions relatively
well in social situations when he has to. That said, he seldom chooses to
place himself in social situations, preferring solitary activities. And
take a good look at his face sometime; the man is nearly 44 and has
practically no lines in his face. He doesn't do facial expressions
much--which makes the ones he *does* do more meaningful. At least to me.
MKK
--
Member:
fwa
Evil Elitist Fannish Conspiracy
RASFF Fire, Usage, and Whinge Brigade
Worldwide TAFF Cabal (there is no cabal)
Mary Kay Kare
<churn...@home.com> wrote:
> "Laurie D. T. Mann" wrote:
> >
> > I know one fannish kid who had a completely irrational fear of insects.
> > I know another one with an irrational fear of answering the telephone
> > (though she seems a little better about that these days).
>
> I used to have a terror of entering a place I'd never been before
> -unless- someone I knew was with me the first time. As far as I
> know, it had nothing to do with shyness; it was morbid and weird and
> I kidded myself about it a lot -- but I got very good at scoping out
> places I thought I -might- like to go and figuring out ways to just
> happen by when I was in the company of someone who would believe my,
> "Oh, that place looks interesting -- let's pop in and see what it's
> like" was actually spontaneous.
Jordin had a slightly different version as a child. He hated any change
in his home surroundings--he came home from school once to discover his
mother had put new curtains and bedspread in his room and had hysterics.
He's still not really crazy about changes in his personal life, though he
absolutely relishes them at work.
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <slrn8kqs4...@pnh-0.dsl.speakeasy.net>, p...@panix.com (P
>Nielsen Hayden) writes:
>
>>Mitch Wagner <mit...@sff.net> wrote:
>>
>>>And no, I don't think I have Asperger's or autism, but I do think that
>>>mental illneses like those two and others are simply amplifications of
>>>conditions which all people have.
>>
>>
>>This was always my point; not that fans are as screwed-up as full-fledged
>>autistics, but that there does seem to be a "cast of mine" common in fandom
>>which looks a lot like a _very_ mild case of some of the same symptoms.
>>
>>I never meant this observation to "pathologize" fans. As Oliver Sacks has
>>repeatedly shown, what's "pathological" and what isn't is very much a matter
>>of context.
>>
>>--
>>Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
>
>
>Asperger's as i know it. on the other hand, if you view it as part of a
>spectrum, from autistic, and then Asperger's, maybe there is an 'Asperger's
>Lite'.
Yeah, I thought that was my point.
P Nielsen Hayden
MLG <mor...@dreyfuss.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>There is a line between 'unskilled' in social situations, and totally
>not on the same planet with social skills.
Actually, there's a complicated and fractal continuum.
>Most fans I know of who display some aspects of Asperger's are well
>capable of learning to change their behaviour, which means, effectively,
>that they don't have Asperger's. They may have areas in common, but
>their very functionality in a highly diverse and challenging environment
>means it isn't Asperger's.
Well, "Asperger's" is a syndrome, not a microbe. In other words, it's a
rhetorical and categorical invention of human beings, not an objective state
in nature like being infected with the influenza virus.
This is true of many neurological conditions (such as, for instance,
narcolepsy). It's absolutely correct that the annoyingly monomaniacal
conversationalist at the SF con is nothing like as impaired, or as
miserable, as a serious Asperger's sufferer. But it's worth considering
that they may well exist along the same continuum. Just as many things that
happen to us "normal" people once in a while are on the same continuum as
the things that happen to (for instance) narcoleptics constantly.
The reason these observations are worth making, and worth repeating, is that
they drive home the point that neurological disorders aren't something alien
and incomprehensible. Brains are fragile and rattly. Literally, we all
experience neurogical disorders sometimes. And, moreover, what's a
"disorder" in some social contexts can be a source of tremendous strength in
another. Viz.: Temple Grandin. Et cetera.
We rehearsed all this in the previous discussion. Despite it, somehow the
conversation always devolves down to an argument between lumpers and
splitters. I'm with the lumpers. I think we need to make distinctions, but
I _really_ think we need to cultivate sympathy. In the full meaning of that
much-abused word.
Morris M. Keesan
Mitch Wagner <mit...@sff.net> wrote:
>I think it was here a couple of years ago that some people were discussing
>Asperger's syndrome, which is related to autism,
And I recently read a news item which reported that some psychologist
somewhere has posthumously diagnosed Glenn Gould as having had
--
Morris M. Keesan -- kee...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~keesan/ -- now with MORE baby pictures
Richard Kennaway
> And I recently read a news item which reported that some psychologist
> somewhere has posthumously diagnosed Glenn Gould as having had
The same has been suggested of Wittgenstein, Einstein, and a whole lot
of other people. For a range of conditions as nebulous as Asperger's, I
don't think these posthumous diagnoses mean anything. Geniuses, by
their nature, are often isolated, impatient of their fellows,
disinclined to conform to petty social rules, and intensly preoccupied
with the things that they have made their life's work, ingredients which
anyone can scrape together and label as Asperger's.
The game may serve the cause of Asperger's Pride, which I'm not
knocking, but it can cut both ways. Someone taking the opposite part
can just as easily apply the diagnosis to evil dead geniuses instead of
benign ones. (Except that there don't seem to be so many of those. Is
it more oft the evil that is interrèd with their bones?)
-- Richard Kennaway
Bernard Peek
<ar...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>Morris M. Keesan <kee...@world.std.com> wrote:
>> And I recently read a news item which reported that some psychologist
>> somewhere has posthumously diagnosed Glenn Gould as having had
>[Asperger's, I assume]
>
>The same has been suggested of Wittgenstein, Einstein, and a whole lot
>of other people.
Bill Gates. I think it was in last weekend's Sunday Times, in afeature
on Asperger's.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
b...@shrdlu.co.uk
b...@shrdlu.org.uk
Richard Kennaway
> Bill Gates. I think it was in last weekend's Sunday Times, in afeature
> on Asperger's.
Right. I knew there had to be an evil genius with A as well.
-- Richard Kennaway
Morris M. Keesan
Richard Kennaway <ar...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>Morris M. Keesan <kee...@world.std.com> wrote:
>> And I recently read a news item which reported that some psychologist
>> somewhere has posthumously diagnosed Glenn Gould as having had
>[Asperger's, I assume]
>
>The same has been suggested of Wittgenstein, Einstein, and a whole lot
>don't think these posthumous diagnoses mean anything. Geniuses, by
>their nature, are often isolated, impatient of their fellows,
>disinclined to conform to petty social rules, and intensly preoccupied
>with the things that they have made their life's work, ingredients which
>anyone can scrape together and label as Asperger's.
Yes, Asperger's. That was my news server in one of its sporadic
attacks of "remove last line". In Gould's case, the diagnosis makes
sense to me. His set of quirks was much more intense than isolation,
impatience, non-conformit, and preoccupation.
Bernard Peek
<ar...@dircon.co.uk> writes
The gist of the article was that anyone who is more focussed than
average is probably suffering from Asperger's, or something similar. It
confers an ability to focus on one thing to a degree that other people
find weird. From which I conclude that anyone who can remember the names
of the England football squad must be nuts.
Kevin J. Maroney
wrote:
>The gist of the article was that anyone who is more focussed than
>average is probably suffering from Asperger's, or something similar.
The New York Times Magazine article *I* read makes no point even
remotely similar to that, unless you believe that everyone who "is
more focused than average" has to memorize facial expressions by rote.
--
Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies | kmar...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Bernard Peek
Maroney <kmar...@crossover.com> writes
>On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:07:59 +0100, Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com>
>wrote:
>>The gist of the article was that anyone who is more focussed than
>>average is probably suffering from Asperger's, or something similar.
>
>The New York Times Magazine article *I* read makes no point even
>remotely similar to that, unless you believe that everyone who "is
>more focused than average" has to memorize facial expressions by rote.
I wasn't referring to the New York Times. The Sunday Times article was
published on the same day in London. I've looked for it on their web
site, it isn't included in their latest on-line edition.
John Dallman
> In article <p1o6lskm6ona001nt...@4ax.com>, Kevin J.
> Maroney <kmar...@crossover.com> writes
> >remotely similar to that, unless you believe that everyone who "is
> >more focused than average" has to memorize facial expressions by rote.
>
> I wasn't referring to the New York Times. The Sunday Times article was
> published on the same day in London. I've looked for it on their web
> site, it isn't included in their latest on-line edition.
If it's in the Sunday Times, and science-related, you can be fairly sure
it's wrong. They've never recovered from Andrew Neil's insistence, for
apparently personal reasons, that AIDS couldn't be linked with HIV.
---
John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk
Kevin J. Maroney
>I wasn't referring to the New York Times. The Sunday Times article was
>published on the same day in London.
Oh. Never Mind.
--
Kevin Maroney | kmar...@crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
<http://www.nyrsf.com>
Mitch Wagner
>In article <1ecnamr.154xv551obnie2N%ar...@dircon.co.uk>, Richard Kennaway
><ar...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>>Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> wrote:
>>> Bill Gates. I think it was in last weekend's Sunday Times, in afeature
>>> on Asperger's.
>>
>>Right. I knew there had to be an evil genius with A as well.
>
>The gist of the article was that anyone who is more focussed than
>average is probably suffering from Asperger's, or something similar. It
>confers an ability to focus on one thing to a degree that other people
>find weird. From which I conclude that anyone who can remember the names
>of the England football squad must be nuts.
Did you read the same article I did? That's not a description of the New
York Times article at all.
--
Mitch Wagner
P Nielsen Hayden
An aspect of Usenet I never cease to find entertaining is its
asynchronicity; you can watch two, three, four, a dozen people make the same
dumb mistake, each blissfully unaware of the others.
You don't know whether to wince or hold up Olympic rating cards. The East
German judge gives this one a 7.
Mitch Wagner
<slrn8l8d7...@pnh-0.dsl.speakeasy.net>:
Thank you. That East German judge is a tough grader. Plus, she's a guy.
And of course whenever you PARTICIPATE in a car wreck like that one, when
you come back the next day and see what really went on, you think to
yourself, "Oh, God, please let me not have written something that makes me
look REALLY STUPID."
Fortunately, when I reread my post, I said, "Oh, good, that can be read as
a simple inquiry." I have to confess that I intended it to be just a tad
sarcastic, but it didn't come out that way and boy was I relieved.
--
Mitch Wagner
Joseph Hertzlinger
>I think it was here a couple of years ago that some people were
>discussing Asperger's syndrome, which is related to autism, and how
>prevalent it might be in fandom. The discussion was damped out by
>some psychological professionals who said that they were familiar
>both with fans and with Asperger's patients and fans are WAY more
>social than Asperger's patients.
I have seen a theory that Asperger's is due to a deficit in attention
switching, e.g., from reading SF to something productive.
>An Asperger's patient might know all the birthdays of all the
>member's of congress, or a great deal of information about fast-food
>deep-frying machines. And yet one classroom for Asperger's kids has a
>diagram on the wall to show the kids what different facial
>expressions look like--the kids literally are unable to tell when
>another person is happy, or sad, or angry, by looking at that other
>person's face; the kids have to learn that skill in school.
It sounds like Focus.