Rumination on Hearts and Minds
Bill Higgins
The Tin Woodman is looking for a heart.
But the Scarecrow is stuffed full of straw. Why isn't he *also* looking
for a heart? He doesn't have a heart does he? Is he merely unconcerned
about lacking one?
And does the Tin Woodman have a brain? Shouldn't he want a brain as well as
a heart? All his parts have been replaced with metal. If he has a brain,
it's a metal brain.
As I understand it, *The Wonderful Wizard of Oz* appeared in 1900, so I
presume the story takes place in that year.
A quick Moore's Law calculation shows that the Tin Woodman could not have
had much more than thirty billionths of a transistor to his name. Seems to
me he needs more brains almost as badly as the Scarecrow does. Perhaps he
is not bright enough to realize this.
Or his calculation concerning whether he needs brains or not has not yet
halted, given the tiny amount of processing power available to him.
(I have seen the movie version, but not the book, so maybe this is all
explained by Baum.)
--
Bill Higgins | "I continue to feel that
Fermilab | if you're going to go on being this stupid,
Internet: | you should try to be more polite; or alternately,
hig...@fnal.gov | if you're going to go on being this rude,
| you should try not to say such dumb things."
| --T. Nielsen Hayden
Paul Ciszek
In article <Pine.SOL.4.63L.0...@fsui03.fnal.gov>,
Bill Higgins <hig...@fnal.gov> wrote:
>
>A quick Moore's Law calculation shows that the Tin Woodman could not have
>had much more than thirty billionths of a transistor to his name. Seems to
>me he needs more brains almost as badly as the Scarecrow does. Perhaps he
>is not bright enough to realize this.
RASFF award with medal for courage.
--
Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
Autoreply is disabled |
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
news:Pine.SOL.4.63L.0...@fsui03.fnal.gov:
> So the Scarecrow is looking for brains.
>
> The Tin Woodman is looking for a heart.
>
> But the Scarecrow is stuffed full of straw. Why isn't he *also*
> looking for a heart? He doesn't have a heart does he? Is he merely
> unconcerned about lacking one?
>
> And does the Tin Woodman have a brain? Shouldn't he want a brain as
> well as a heart? All his parts have been replaced with metal. If he
> has a brain, it's a metal brain.
>
> As I understand it, *The Wonderful Wizard of Oz* appeared in 1900, so I
> presume the story takes place in that year.
>
> A quick Moore's Law calculation shows that the Tin Woodman could not
> have had much more than thirty billionths of a transistor to his name.
> Seems to me he needs more brains almost as badly as the Scarecrow does.
> Perhaps he is not bright enough to realize this.
>
> Or his calculation concerning whether he needs brains or not has not yet
> halted, given the tiny amount of processing power available to him.
>
> (I have seen the movie version, but not the book, so maybe this is all
> explained by Baum.)
You're comparing apples to oranges.
The Scarecrow is a created person, made from inanimate objects and brought
to life magically. He is whatever he "thinks" he is; so when he gets his
new "brain" made of bran and tacks, he is persuaded that he is able to
think better. (This point was made much more quickly in the 1939 movie,
where he is granted a diploma in recognition of the good thinking that he
has already done.)
Note that in Oz, created persons or other created living things tend to be
at least a little silly. The Patchwork Girl is a good example of this.
The Tin Woodman, on the other hand, was once a meat person. His parts were
replaced piecemeal, and apparently in Oz the mind is linked with the bulk
of the remaining body, so that when his head was replaced with a tin one,
his mentality remained with the now-entirely-tin body. Since there is no
death in Oz, due to the nature of the fairies' blessing (unless one's body
is completely destroyed, which happens rarely), Nick Chopper's original
head continued to live, and indeed in one of the later books he had a
conversation with it. It didn't appear to have much of a concept of having
been, nor of continuing to be, Nick Chopper.
I specifically do not want to try to take into account the further, and
uncanonical, rejiggerings of these characters' origins as suggested by the
stage musical version of "Wicked" (which has elements quite different from
Maguire's book, let alone any of those by the Official Historians of Oz),
except to suggest that if the movie were being remade today, the Wizard
might not say that Dorothy et al had "liquidated" the Wicked Witch of the
West, but rather than they had "deconstructed" her.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Matthew B. Tepper
Kip Williams
> Did anybody even read this?
The book or your comment? I read both, but am bone tired and about to
turn in for the night. My new job is taking it out of me, and what's
left gets taken out by my daughter.
I thought it was a good comment, but just didn't have any wherewithal to
say anything about it. Sorry.
Kip W
Cally Soukup
> Did anybody even read this?
I did, just now. I don't remember the Tin Woodman conversing with his
own head; which book was it in? I've read all the Baums and most of the
Thompsons. It was quite a few years ago; perhaps it's time for a
re-read.
--
"I disapprove of what you have to say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@two14.net
Sea Wasp
> Matthew B. Tepper <oy?@earthlink.net> wrote in article <Xns9796BDF5B2A...@207.217.125.201>:
>
>>Did anybody even read this?
>
>
> I did, just now. I don't remember the Tin Woodman conversing with his
> own head; which book was it in? I've read all the Baums and most of the
> Thompsons. It was quite a few years ago; perhaps it's time for a
> re-read.
>
"The Tin Woodman of Oz", a Baum original. It's also there that we
meet the Tin Soldier, who was courting the same girl, Nimee Aimee
(IIRC). Also making an appearance in that book was my first true love,
Polychrome, Daughter of the Rainbow.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Richard Eney
was a buzzword for what the Gestapo did to people at that time, as
"deconstructed" is now a buzzword for what would-be critics do to stories
they can't otherwise trash.
-- Dick Eney
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:122qr7h...@corp.supernews.com:
> In article <Xns9796BDF5B2A...@207.217.125.201>,
> Matthew B. Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>>Did anybody even read this?
>
> Yep. I didn't think it was worth while to point out that "liquidated"
> was a buzzword for what the Gestapo did to people at that time, as
> "deconstructed" is now a buzzword for what would-be critics do to stories
> they can't otherwise trash.
Actually, I had sort of thought that "liquidated" was a reference to the
show trials in the USSR, then a fairly recent event (as well the obvious
pun on the fact that the WWW had been dissolved).
Kip Williams
> dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney) appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:122qr7h...@corp.supernews.com:
>
>>In article <Xns9796BDF5B2A...@207.217.125.201>,
>>Matthew B. Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Did anybody even read this?
>>
>>Yep. I didn't think it was worth while to point out that "liquidated"
>>was a buzzword for what the Gestapo did to people at that time, as
>>"deconstructed" is now a buzzword for what would-be critics do to stories
>>they can't otherwise trash.
>
> Actually, I had sort of thought that "liquidated" was a reference to the
> show trials in the USSR, then a fairly recent event (as well the obvious
> pun on the fact that the WWW had been dissolved).
Nah, it's one of them Oz references.
Kip W
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:Mqqdnb5AGP2...@comcast.com:
Let's not always see the same hands. I can always count on you and Cally;
am I just boring, or in lots of killfiles?
Cally Soukup
> Cally Soukup wrote:
> > Matthew B. Tepper <oy?@earthlink.net> wrote in article <Xns9796BDF5B2A...@207.217.125.201>:
> >
> >>Did anybody even read this?
> >
> >
> > I did, just now. I don't remember the Tin Woodman conversing with his
> > own head; which book was it in? I've read all the Baums and most of the
> > Thompsons. It was quite a few years ago; perhaps it's time for a
> > re-read.
> "The Tin Woodman of Oz", a Baum original. It's also there that we
> meet the Tin Soldier, who was courting the same girl, Nimee Aimee
> (IIRC). Also making an appearance in that book was my first true love,
> Polychrome, Daughter of the Rainbow.
Memory is a funny thing; I remember Polychrome, but not the Tin
Soldier.
Doug Wickstrom
"Liquidation" is translation into English of a Russian
equivalent, used by the NKVD.
Doug Wickstrom
<sou...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote in article <442D1A4C...@obvioussgeinc.com>:
>> Cally Soukup wrote:
>> > Matthew B. Tepper <oy?@earthlink.net> wrote in article <Xns9796BDF5B2A...@207.217.125.201>:
>> >
>> >>Did anybody even read this?
>> >
>> >
>> > I did, just now. I don't remember the Tin Woodman conversing with his
>> > own head; which book was it in? I've read all the Baums and most of the
>> > Thompsons. It was quite a few years ago; perhaps it's time for a
>> > re-read.
>
>> "The Tin Woodman of Oz", a Baum original. It's also there that we
>> meet the Tin Soldier, who was courting the same girl, Nimee Aimee
>> (IIRC). Also making an appearance in that book was my first true love,
>> Polychrome, Daughter of the Rainbow.
>
>Memory is a funny thing; I remember Polychrome, but not the Tin
>Soldier.
I do. Wasn't his name Tik Tok, or something similar?
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:f63s22pbuv57uc81q...@4ax.com:
As I said, I thought it was a reference to the show trials in the USSR.
Kip Williams
I think his title was "The Clockwork Man of Oz."
Kip W [thinking]
Kip Williams
> Kip Williams <ki...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:Mqqdnb5AGP2...@comcast.com:
>
>
> Let's not always see the same hands. I can always count on you and Cally;
> am I just boring, or in lots of killfiles?
But I used my -left- hand!
I think people are getting fatigued from the poli threads. I have to
keep changing the finger I hit "n" with to keep the tip from flattening.
Kip W
Sea Wasp
Tik-Tok was the copper Clockwork Man, first seen in the third Oz
book, Ozma of Oz. The Tin Soldier was Captain Fyter, rebuilt in the
same way as the Tin Woodman by the same artisan, old Ku-Klip the
tinsmith.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:eJidnSsHe8z...@comcast.com:
No, "The Royal Army of Oz." Earlier there had been a standing army (which
consisted of all officers except for one enlisted man who pretty much
ignored the officers and did what he pleased), but as Oz was deemed to be
mostly at peace with its neighbors Tik-Tok was given the position as a sort
of honorary title.
Where is Ruth Berman when we need her?
Cally Soukup
No, that was the wind-up robot in "Tik Toc of Oz". I want to say that
was one of the books with Betsy and her chicken as protagonists, but I
could be wrong. That book also featured antagonists called "Wheelers" who
had wheels instead of feet (and many of the same disadvantages as
Daleks as a consequence).
Sea Wasp
> Kip Williams <ki...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:eJidnSsHe8z...@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Doug Wickstrom wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 03:54:19 +0000 (UTC), Cally Soukup
>>><sou...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Memory is a funny thing; I remember Polychrome, but not the Tin
>>>>Soldier.
>>>
>>>I do. Wasn't his name Tik Tok, or something similar?
>>
>>I think his title was "The Clockwork Man of Oz."
>>
>>Kip W [thinking]
>
>
> No, "The Royal Army of Oz." Earlier there had been a standing army (which
> consisted of all officers except for one enlisted man who pretty much
> ignored the officers and did what he pleased), but as Oz was deemed to be
> mostly at peace with its neighbors Tik-Tok was given the position as a sort
> of honorary title.
The Royal Army of Oz consisted of the Soldier with the Green Whiskers
in some of the early books. In "Ozma of Oz", the Army consisted of one
Private (who did all the fighting) and, IIRC, four Generals, four
Colonels, and four Majors. Tik-Tok defeated the army of... damn, I'm
forgetting the name, one of the small border countries of Oz... in
"Tik-Tok of Oz". Perhaps he got the Army title then?
Sea Wasp
> No, that was the wind-up robot in "Tik Toc of Oz". I want to say that
> was one of the books with Betsy and her chicken as protagonists, but I
> could be wrong. That book also featured antagonists called "Wheelers" who
> had wheels instead of feet (and many of the same disadvantages as
> Daleks as a consequence).
>
That was "Ozma of Oz". It was Dorothy, not Betsy. Dorothy and Billina
the Chicken, who discovered Tik-Tok and wound him up (he had three
windup actions; one for his movement, one for speech, and one for
thinking.) That was also the book which introduced the Nome King, the
only true recurring villain in the series.
Daniel R. Reitman
<seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
> The Royal Army of Oz consisted of the Soldier with the Green Whiskers
>in some of the early books. In "Ozma of Oz", the Army consisted of one
>Private (who did all the fighting) and, IIRC, four Generals, four
>Colonels, and four Majors. . . .
IIRC, 26 officers of varying ranks. Upon being reassured that there
were three privates in Oz's other armies, Ozma rewarded the private
for bravery by promoting him to Captain General.
Dan, ad nauseam
Doug Wickstrom
Ah, yes. Memory is a funny thing.
Cally Soukup
> Cally Soukup wrote:
> > No, that was the wind-up robot in "Tik Toc of Oz". I want to say that
> > was one of the books with Betsy and her chicken as protagonists, but I
> > could be wrong. That book also featured antagonists called "Wheelers" who
> > had wheels instead of feet (and many of the same disadvantages as
> > Daleks as a consequence).
> That was "Ozma of Oz". It was Dorothy, not Betsy. Dorothy and Billina
> the Chicken, who discovered Tik-Tok and wound him up (he had three
> windup actions; one for his movement, one for speech, and one for
> thinking.) That was also the book which introduced the Nome King, the
> only true recurring villain in the series.
Oh, right. They do run together, don't they?
Sea Wasp
> Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote in article <442EC87E...@obvioussgeinc.com>:
>
>>Cally Soukup wrote:
>
>
>>>No, that was the wind-up robot in "Tik Toc of Oz". I want to say that
>>>was one of the books with Betsy and her chicken as protagonists, but I
>>>could be wrong. That book also featured antagonists called "Wheelers" who
>>>had wheels instead of feet (and many of the same disadvantages as
>>>Daleks as a consequence).
>>
>
>> That was "Ozma of Oz". It was Dorothy, not Betsy. Dorothy and Billina
>>the Chicken, who discovered Tik-Tok and wound him up (he had three
>>windup actions; one for his movement, one for speech, and one for
>>thinking.) That was also the book which introduced the Nome King, the
>>only true recurring villain in the series.
>
>
> Oh, right. They do run together, don't they?
>
For you, possibly. *I* remember all of them pretty clearly. They were
my absolute favorite books as a kid, and I recently re-read them all
to Christopher.
There's some actually quite creepy material in those. The princess
who had the collection of heads, for instance. Heads she swapped on
and off the way others change their clothes, and which would change
her personality when worn...
Nels E. Satterlund
> Kip Williams <ki...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:Mqqdnb5AGP2...@comcast.com:
>
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>> dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney) appears to have caused the following
>>> letters to be typed in news:122qr7h...@corp.supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> In article <Xns9796BDF5B2A...@207.217.125.201>,
>>>> Matthew B. Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Did anybody even read this?
>>>> Yep. I didn't think it was worth while to point out that "liquidated"
>>>> was a buzzword for what the Gestapo did to people at that time, as
>>>> "deconstructed" is now a buzzword for what would-be critics do to
>>>> stories they can't otherwise trash.
>>> Actually, I had sort of thought that "liquidated" was a reference to
>>> the show trials in the USSR, then a fairly recent event (as well the
>>> obvious pun on the fact that the WWW had been dissolved).
>> Nah, it's one of them Oz references.
>
> Let's not always see the same hands. I can always count on you and Cally;
> am I just boring, or in lots of killfiles?
>
Nope ... I just don't say much (online).
and the work news feed is still fubar, I haven't look lately to see how
many incoming posts are dropped.
Nels
--
Nels E Satterlund I don't speak for the company, specially here
Ne...@Starstream.net <-- Use this address for personal Email
My Lurkers motto: I read much better and faster, than I type.
Bill Higgins
> Bill Higgins <hig...@fnal.gov> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:Pine.SOL.4.63L.0...@fsui03.fnal.gov:
>
>> But the Scarecrow is stuffed full of straw. Why isn't he *also*
>> looking for a heart? He doesn't have a heart does he? Is he merely
>> unconcerned about lacking one?
> You're comparing apples to oranges.
>
> The Scarecrow is a created person, made from inanimate objects and brought
> to life magically.
I infer that the answer to my question is that he doesn't really *need* a
heart.
> He is whatever he "thinks" he is; so when he gets his
> new "brain" made of bran and tacks, he is persuaded that he is able to
> think better.
The reader, and the Wizard, realize that the Scarecrow thinks reasonably
well, and that his obsession with brains is an unnecessary delusion. Am I
right?
> (This point was made much more quickly in the 1939 movie,
> where he is granted a diploma in recognition of the good thinking that he
> has already done.)
I think the movie version works better.
>> And does the Tin Woodman have a brain? Shouldn't he want a brain as
>> well as a heart? All his parts have been replaced with metal. If he
>> has a brain, it's a metal brain.
Matthew goes on to explain that the Tin Man has two brains, in a sense. At
least, two of his heads exist, a natural one and an artificial one;
presumably he does his thinking with the tin head. He seems not to complain
about its effectiveness, but he is very worried about the heart thing.
I still think Moore's Law offers a big impediment to artificial thinkers of
the early 20th century.
--
Bill Higgins | "There is no such thing as enough shelf space.
Fermilab | That is why a merciful god gave us floors."
hig...@fnal.gov | --Mary Kay Kare