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Jymesion
Aug 25, 2012, 7:33:48 AM8/25/12
to
My usual method of writing is to begin with a strange situation. By
the time I have that written, I've figured out the next scene. This
gives me confidence (whether warranted or not) that the story is
progressing along natural lines.
Unfortunately, rewriting my wsip from scratch has opened up all sorts
of concerns I normally don't face.
One of these is how to open the story.
Here's my latest idea for the first chapter. It's not exactly a shoot
the sheriff. (It's twice the length that's allowed in the FAQ, but
since there isn't any competition for attention in the group right
now, I hope that can be forgiven. ;) )
Text:
Jace's vellum-scraper cut into his hip, and his nose was squashed into
his knee. The receiver was an inch smaller than the one he'd left, and
the scientific principle which magicked people from one universe to
another didn't compress molecules or adjust densities -- it simply
crammed the traveler into the available space.
He elbowed the latch to open the door. With the pressure released, his
back slid across the receiver's slick porcelain lining, dumping him on
his side, half in, half out, his shoulder hitting the stone floor. The
tunnel was so small he'd have to crawl anyway, but it portended a
problem when he had to squeeze back in for the trip home. He knew
someone would eventually figure out the chronological order in which
the people who invented travel had used porcelain, tin, titanium, and
a dozen other coatings in the receivers. He doubted anyone would ever
learn why they made them so small that travelers had to fold
themselves up like magicians' assistants.
The blue glow of his travelplate's screen was his only light. He
slipped it out of the receiver's ceiling, moved the symbols
identifying his origin into the destination window so it'd be ready in
case he had to return quickly, and replaced it in its slot. After
closing the door, he started crawling across the rough floor in the
dark.
After only ten feet, he felt the handle of the fake stone slab
blocking the end of the tunnel. It took two tugs to pull it from its
hole. Only darkness lay beyond. Relieved, he dug a candle and match
from his satchel. The match wasn't suitable for the year 1368, but the
burnt stub was the least of what the natives would find if they
discovered the receiver's hiding place. He'd argued he might as well
carry a lighter, but his handlers at Authority suspected he wanted to
use it during the mission instead of the period-correct flint and
tinder in his kit. Giving him one match made his life easier while
keeping him from contaminating the locals.
By the light of the candle, he saw the clock left by a previous
traveler. There was an hour's difference between its reading and what
he'd been told it should be. Time not only passed at different rates
in different universes, it sometimes changed speed or went in fits and
starts within one. Jace didn't care about the theories of how or why;
what mattered to him was he'd arrived earlier than expected, so he
wouldn't have to hurry.
The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
barely tall enough for him to stand upright. After putting the candle
in a recess near the ceiling, he moved the fake stone slab back into
place and smoothed the seams over with his hand. It looked so much
like the surrounding wall that the edges seemed to disappear.
A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor. He laid his satchel, cloak,
and pouch of scribe's tools in it and shuffled along the narrow space
beside it to reach the front of the room. Two slabs, side by side and
less than three feet tall, were doors, with a narrow piece closing the
gap between them. He moved that slat slowly, looking and listening
for anything out of place. Only pre-dawn light and the sound of waves
gently lapping a rocky shore came through.
After cautiously creeping out, he checked the whole island. No more
than forty meters long and half that wide, its sole feature was the
central rock standing three meters above the water. The only trace
that humans had ever set foot there was the remains of a fire on the
leeward side, perhaps made by some fisherman caught in a storm who
decided any land was better than none. Those ashes were weeks old,
barely more than a stain on the gravel.
The sun was on the horizon by the time he worked the rowboat through
the low doorway, man-handled it to the shore, and replaced the slabs
to hide the room. Even though the morning was chilly, he decided to
stay dressed as he was. He was already sweating. If he put on his warm
cloak, he'd be reeking by the time he reached the mainland. It would
be more in keeping with his disguise as an itinerant scribe, but he
expected to be absolutely filthy by the end of the day anyway and saw
no reason to hurry the process.
Jace rowed around the island and started to pull heavily for the long
way to the mainland. The thought occurred to him whether he should
trust such a boat. No piece of it could be more than forty inches
long, the maximum which would fit crosswise in a receiver. Vertical
zig-zags on the side looked as if they were only knife marks since the
grain of the wood seemed continuous down the entire length of the
planks. He knew them to be the joints where waterproof epoxy held
together precision joints of plastic and cellulose composite textured
to look like old oak. It was highly engineered and made of the finest
materials, but it was still a jigsaw puzzle, and he was miles from
land.
He also thought how backwards the idea was. If they'd used some rods
and locked them together to run from the receiver to the room, they
could have sent a real boat. It was an unexplained feature that a
receiver would shunt the transmission of a metal box too large for it
to the end of an attached rigid iron bar. Besides shipping a complete
boat that way, travelers could afterwards add a digit to the
destination code and be sent to the box instead of the tiny receiver.
Why would Authority, ever harping on the need to keep societies
unaware of a traveler's presence, prefer a polymer and synthetic
piecework be tied up to local docks rather than let a metal box sit in
a cave which the natives hadn't discovered in the thousand or so years
since the receiver had been installed?
He knew he'd never know the answer, so he consoled himself with the
fact that his anger over their stupidity had made him row faster and
had kept him from thinking about how slowly the island receded into
the distance.
End Text.
I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
the time I have that written, I've figured out the next scene. This
gives me confidence (whether warranted or not) that the story is
progressing along natural lines.
Unfortunately, rewriting my wsip from scratch has opened up all sorts
of concerns I normally don't face.
One of these is how to open the story.
Here's my latest idea for the first chapter. It's not exactly a shoot
the sheriff. (It's twice the length that's allowed in the FAQ, but
since there isn't any competition for attention in the group right
now, I hope that can be forgiven. ;) )
Text:
Jace's vellum-scraper cut into his hip, and his nose was squashed into
his knee. The receiver was an inch smaller than the one he'd left, and
the scientific principle which magicked people from one universe to
another didn't compress molecules or adjust densities -- it simply
crammed the traveler into the available space.
He elbowed the latch to open the door. With the pressure released, his
back slid across the receiver's slick porcelain lining, dumping him on
his side, half in, half out, his shoulder hitting the stone floor. The
tunnel was so small he'd have to crawl anyway, but it portended a
problem when he had to squeeze back in for the trip home. He knew
someone would eventually figure out the chronological order in which
the people who invented travel had used porcelain, tin, titanium, and
a dozen other coatings in the receivers. He doubted anyone would ever
learn why they made them so small that travelers had to fold
themselves up like magicians' assistants.
The blue glow of his travelplate's screen was his only light. He
slipped it out of the receiver's ceiling, moved the symbols
identifying his origin into the destination window so it'd be ready in
case he had to return quickly, and replaced it in its slot. After
closing the door, he started crawling across the rough floor in the
dark.
After only ten feet, he felt the handle of the fake stone slab
blocking the end of the tunnel. It took two tugs to pull it from its
hole. Only darkness lay beyond. Relieved, he dug a candle and match
from his satchel. The match wasn't suitable for the year 1368, but the
burnt stub was the least of what the natives would find if they
discovered the receiver's hiding place. He'd argued he might as well
carry a lighter, but his handlers at Authority suspected he wanted to
use it during the mission instead of the period-correct flint and
tinder in his kit. Giving him one match made his life easier while
keeping him from contaminating the locals.
By the light of the candle, he saw the clock left by a previous
traveler. There was an hour's difference between its reading and what
he'd been told it should be. Time not only passed at different rates
in different universes, it sometimes changed speed or went in fits and
starts within one. Jace didn't care about the theories of how or why;
what mattered to him was he'd arrived earlier than expected, so he
wouldn't have to hurry.
The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
barely tall enough for him to stand upright. After putting the candle
in a recess near the ceiling, he moved the fake stone slab back into
place and smoothed the seams over with his hand. It looked so much
like the surrounding wall that the edges seemed to disappear.
A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor. He laid his satchel, cloak,
and pouch of scribe's tools in it and shuffled along the narrow space
beside it to reach the front of the room. Two slabs, side by side and
less than three feet tall, were doors, with a narrow piece closing the
gap between them. He moved that slat slowly, looking and listening
for anything out of place. Only pre-dawn light and the sound of waves
gently lapping a rocky shore came through.
After cautiously creeping out, he checked the whole island. No more
than forty meters long and half that wide, its sole feature was the
central rock standing three meters above the water. The only trace
that humans had ever set foot there was the remains of a fire on the
leeward side, perhaps made by some fisherman caught in a storm who
decided any land was better than none. Those ashes were weeks old,
barely more than a stain on the gravel.
The sun was on the horizon by the time he worked the rowboat through
the low doorway, man-handled it to the shore, and replaced the slabs
to hide the room. Even though the morning was chilly, he decided to
stay dressed as he was. He was already sweating. If he put on his warm
cloak, he'd be reeking by the time he reached the mainland. It would
be more in keeping with his disguise as an itinerant scribe, but he
expected to be absolutely filthy by the end of the day anyway and saw
no reason to hurry the process.
Jace rowed around the island and started to pull heavily for the long
way to the mainland. The thought occurred to him whether he should
trust such a boat. No piece of it could be more than forty inches
long, the maximum which would fit crosswise in a receiver. Vertical
zig-zags on the side looked as if they were only knife marks since the
grain of the wood seemed continuous down the entire length of the
planks. He knew them to be the joints where waterproof epoxy held
together precision joints of plastic and cellulose composite textured
to look like old oak. It was highly engineered and made of the finest
materials, but it was still a jigsaw puzzle, and he was miles from
land.
He also thought how backwards the idea was. If they'd used some rods
and locked them together to run from the receiver to the room, they
could have sent a real boat. It was an unexplained feature that a
receiver would shunt the transmission of a metal box too large for it
to the end of an attached rigid iron bar. Besides shipping a complete
boat that way, travelers could afterwards add a digit to the
destination code and be sent to the box instead of the tiny receiver.
Why would Authority, ever harping on the need to keep societies
unaware of a traveler's presence, prefer a polymer and synthetic
piecework be tied up to local docks rather than let a metal box sit in
a cave which the natives hadn't discovered in the thousand or so years
since the receiver had been installed?
He knew he'd never know the answer, so he consoled himself with the
fact that his anger over their stupidity had made him row faster and
had kept him from thinking about how slowly the island receded into
the distance.
End Text.
I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
Raymond Daley
Aug 25, 2012, 12:43:56 PM8/25/12
to
"Jymesion" wrote
If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
lines of text.
Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> than forty meters long
Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
> central rock standing three meters above the water.
Again, either spell metres correctly or just use feet.
> the remains of a fire on the leeward side
pick a less technical term, I had to Google leeward. And was still
confused.
Not everyone sails. Even less use the proper terms.
> No piece of it could be more than forty inches
Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
maintains consistancy too then.
1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you from
the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the Imperial
Measurement System.
> could have sent a real boat.
Define "real".
I'm guessing you probably mean one with sails?
If not then just say "sent a boat with an engine."
> travelers
Double l please? I wince when I read American English spellings.
If Stephen King can avoid them then there's no reason why everyone else
can't too.
> He knew he'd never know the answer
Damn but that looks AND sounds weird to read.
Try "He was certain he'd never know the answer." It looks less contrived.
> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
Did it draw me in? Lots, I enjoyed reading it apart from the Americanisms
which always annoy me as a Brit.
> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
It conveys a CRAP LOAD of detail in a very short time.
Especially the stuff about the transporter.
It was information we didn't really need, it could have been kept back for
later - maybe he gets into another tight spot further into the plot, it'd
serve as a useful flashback reference then without feeling forced.
They say "Show, don't tell", I felt I was being told. And not told to, told
AT.
I don't mind being given details about stuff but there's a time and place,
there's also a right and wrong way.
Some of the detail descriptions come so heavily laid it can be a bit heavy
going.
All that being said, I'd probably buy it based on what I've already seen.
And I'm tough to part from my money.
> any comments will be appreciated.
> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
lines of text.
Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> than forty meters long
Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
> central rock standing three meters above the water.
> the remains of a fire on the leeward side
confused.
Not everyone sails. Even less use the proper terms.
> No piece of it could be more than forty inches
maintains consistancy too then.
1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you from
the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the Imperial
Measurement System.
> could have sent a real boat.
I'm guessing you probably mean one with sails?
If not then just say "sent a boat with an engine."
> travelers
Double l please? I wince when I read American English spellings.
If Stephen King can avoid them then there's no reason why everyone else
can't too.
> He knew he'd never know the answer
Try "He was certain he'd never know the answer." It looks less contrived.
> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
which always annoy me as a Brit.
> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
Especially the stuff about the transporter.
It was information we didn't really need, it could have been kept back for
later - maybe he gets into another tight spot further into the plot, it'd
serve as a useful flashback reference then without feeling forced.
They say "Show, don't tell", I felt I was being told. And not told to, told
AT.
I don't mind being given details about stuff but there's a time and place,
there's also a right and wrong way.
Some of the detail descriptions come so heavily laid it can be a bit heavy
going.
All that being said, I'd probably buy it based on what I've already seen.
And I'm tough to part from my money.
Suzanne
Aug 25, 2012, 3:31:13 PM8/25/12
to
On 8/25/2012 7:33 AM, Jymesion wrote:
> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
It does seem infodumpy to me, especially if it's a novel where you have
> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
the time to more gracefully clue us in on the background stuff. It's
also kind of hard to figure out what's going on and feels very
disjointed, and there's no real sense of who Jace is in a way we can
connect to as readers. That said, it seems like you've got a really
nifty premise going on here, which you definitely left me curious to
understand more about.
I think rather than throw all this stuff at us and try to *tell* us how
strange it is, give us some more emotional or physical hooks into the
main character/scene and trust the reader to make the strangeness
judgment on their own as the action unfolds -- a disgruntled man
climbing out of a very small box with a clock in it, onto the middle of
an island, is *deeply* interesting, and too much explanation/digression
waters it down. If you can leverage the fact that this is sort of a
business-as-usual experience for the MC, that will really grab the
reader's interest trying to piece out the clues and contradictions
themselves. And I'd get "vellum-scraper" out of that critical first
sentence -- that's a total stub-the-reader's-toe word, and derails the
momentum of the story before it's even two words out of the gate. Tell
us about it later, when we care what's in Jace's pockets, or what odd
things might be poking him in his uncomfortably small box.
Totally my $.02, and I could be completely wrong. Hope it helps, and
good luck! :)
-Suzanne
Suzanne
Aug 25, 2012, 3:47:31 PM8/25/12
to
On 8/25/2012 12:43 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
> "Jymesion" wrote
>> the remains of a fire on the leeward side
> pick a less technical term, I had to Google leeward. And was still
> confused.
> Not everyone sails. Even less use the proper terms.
FWIW, leeward worked totally fine for me here, and I don't sail. Common
enough word.
> Stick with feet and inches.
This is a valid complaint -- I wouldn't skip back and forth between
metric and imperial, unless there's a clear reason why that's justified.
> As an American (I pegged you from
> the wrong spelling of metre)
>
As an American who reads a *lot* of British fiction, I can say I have no
problems adapting back and forth as long as it's consistent within the
text. I don't even notice it.
Likewise, if your story/novel is picked up by a publisher, they'll
specify what spellings they'll want you to use if there's ambiguity or a
regional disparity. Just be internally consistent and don't worry about it.
-Suzanne
> "Jymesion" wrote
>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
> Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>
> Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>
>> than forty meters long
> Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
Rowboat and meter are perfectly acceptable USian use.
> Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
>> the remains of a fire on the leeward side
> pick a less technical term, I had to Google leeward. And was still
> confused.
> Not everyone sails. Even less use the proper terms.
enough word.
> Stick with feet and inches.
metric and imperial, unless there's a clear reason why that's justified.
> As an American (I pegged you from
> the wrong spelling of metre)
>
> I wince when I read American English spellings.
>
>
> I enjoyed reading it apart from the Americanisms
> which always annoy me as a Brit.
Seriously? *boggles*
> which always annoy me as a Brit.
As an American who reads a *lot* of British fiction, I can say I have no
problems adapting back and forth as long as it's consistent within the
text. I don't even notice it.
Likewise, if your story/novel is picked up by a publisher, they'll
specify what spellings they'll want you to use if there's ambiguity or a
regional disparity. Just be internally consistent and don't worry about it.
-Suzanne
John W Kennedy
Aug 25, 2012, 4:16:50 PM8/25/12
to
On 2012-08-25 16:43:56 +0000, Raymond Daley said:
> Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
> maintains consistancy too then.
> 1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you
> from the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the
> Imperial Measurement System.
Your foolish bigotry is annoying enough without being made the worse by
> Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
> maintains consistancy too then.
> 1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you
> from the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the
> Imperial Measurement System.
flat-out ignorance. The 13 Colonies and the United States never used
the Imperial System, as it was not devised until 1824.
Now go find some nice young lady to argue fish-knives with.
--
John W Kennedy
"The bright critics assembled in this volume will doubtless show, in
their sophisticated and ingenious new ways, that, just as /Pooh/ is
suffused with humanism, our humanism itself, at this late date, has
become full of /Pooh./"
-- Frederick Crews. "Postmodern Pooh", Preface
Jymesion
Aug 25, 2012, 6:44:10 PM8/25/12
to
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:43:56 +0100, "Raymond Daley"
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Jymesion" wrote
>> any comments will be appreciated.
>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
>lines of text.
>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Jymesion" wrote
>> any comments will be appreciated.
>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
>lines of text.
>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
>> than forty meters long
>Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
voltmetre.
>1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you from
>the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the Imperial
>Measurement System.
Thanks for the comments.
Jymesion
Aug 25, 2012, 6:44:10 PM8/25/12
to
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 15:31:13 -0400, Suzanne <zan...@theworld.com>
wrote:
>On 8/25/2012 7:33 AM, Jymesion wrote:
>> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
>> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
>
That said, I didn't *want* to hear it. ;)
I hoped I'd included only information which was relevant to his
thinking at the time and which tied into his emotions. My internal
editor was telling me I was overdoing it. I guess now I have to admit
that my i.e. isn't wrong all the time.
> And I'd get "vellum-scraper" out of that critical first
>sentence -- that's a total stub-the-reader's-toe word, and derails the
>momentum of the story before it's even two words out of the gate.
I was totally blind to that. Thanks!
wrote:
>On 8/25/2012 7:33 AM, Jymesion wrote:
>> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
>> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
>
>I think rather than throw all this stuff at us and try to *tell* us how
>strange it is, give us some more emotional or physical hooks into the
>main character/scene and trust the reader to make the strangeness
>judgment on their own as the action unfolds
I have to thank you because that's exactly what I need to hear.
>strange it is, give us some more emotional or physical hooks into the
>main character/scene and trust the reader to make the strangeness
>judgment on their own as the action unfolds
That said, I didn't *want* to hear it. ;)
I hoped I'd included only information which was relevant to his
thinking at the time and which tied into his emotions. My internal
editor was telling me I was overdoing it. I guess now I have to admit
that my i.e. isn't wrong all the time.
> And I'd get "vellum-scraper" out of that critical first
>sentence -- that's a total stub-the-reader's-toe word, and derails the
>momentum of the story before it's even two words out of the gate.
Jymesion
Aug 25, 2012, 6:44:10 PM8/25/12
to
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 15:47:31 -0400, Suzanne <zan...@theworld.com>
wrote:
>On 8/25/2012 12:43 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>> Stick with feet and inches.
>
>This is a valid complaint -- I wouldn't skip back and forth between
>metric and imperial, unless there's a clear reason why that's justified.
Oddly enough, I cut the reason for it because it was an infodump! (He
still thinks in feet and inches, but he was trained to use metric when
analyzing anything he might have to report.)
wrote:
>On 8/25/2012 12:43 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>> Stick with feet and inches.
>
>This is a valid complaint -- I wouldn't skip back and forth between
>metric and imperial, unless there's a clear reason why that's justified.
still thinks in feet and inches, but he was trained to use metric when
analyzing anything he might have to report.)
Suzanne
Aug 25, 2012, 5:51:41 PM8/25/12
to
On 8/25/2012 6:44 PM, Jymesion wrote:
> Oddly enough, I cut the reason for it because it was an infodump! (He
> still thinks in feet and inches, but he was trained to use metric when
> analyzing anything he might have to report.)
Hmmm. Then I'd avoid it until you can work that detail in, if you've got
> Oddly enough, I cut the reason for it because it was an infodump! (He
> still thinks in feet and inches, but he was trained to use metric when
> analyzing anything he might have to report.)
enough vested in that being a part of this character, and then go wild. (-:
-Suzanne
Suzanne
Aug 25, 2012, 6:00:54 PM8/25/12
to
On 8/25/2012 6:44 PM, Jymesion wrote:
> I have to thank you because that's exactly what I need to hear.
>
> That said, I didn't *want* to hear it. ;)
Sorry. It's a lot easier to point to stuff in someone else's stories
>
> That said, I didn't *want* to hear it. ;)
than see them your own, if that helps any.
> I hoped I'd included only information which was relevant to his
> thinking at the time and which tied into his emotions. My internal
> editor was telling me I was overdoing it. I guess now I have to admit
> that my i.e. isn't wrong all the time.
scenario mid-action, and I think the more you try to stay in the
immediacy of that opening action, the faster the story's going to flow,
and the more slack you'll buy yourself later for exposition/infodumpery
when the reader is more invested in it and looking for answers.
-Suzanne
Jymesion
Aug 25, 2012, 8:51:36 PM8/25/12
to
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:51:41 -0400, Suzanne <zan...@theworld.com>
wrote:
It's important to his character, but it's probably more important that
I know it than it is to explicitly tell the reader about it. That was
the justification I used when I decided to cut the explanation for
mixing SAE and metric.
wrote:
I know it than it is to explicitly tell the reader about it. That was
the justification I used when I decided to cut the explanation for
mixing SAE and metric.
Jymesion
Aug 25, 2012, 8:51:36 PM8/25/12
to
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:00:54 -0400, Suzanne <zan...@theworld.com>
wrote:
>On 8/25/2012 6:44 PM, Jymesion wrote:
>> I have to thank you because that's exactly what I need to hear.
>>
>> That said, I didn't *want* to hear it. ;)
>
>Sorry. It's a lot easier to point to stuff in someone else's stories
>than see them your own, if that helps any.
I know that only too well. The goat in Maude's eye effect.
That's why I posted and asked for opinions.
>> I hoped I'd included only information which was relevant to his
>> thinking at the time and which tied into his emotions. My internal
>> editor was telling me I was overdoing it. I guess now I have to admit
>> that my i.e. isn't wrong all the time.
>
>It's not necessarily wrong, but you're opening with a really interesting
>scenario mid-action, and I think the more you try to stay in the
>immediacy of that opening action, the faster the story's going to flow,
>and the more slack you'll buy yourself later for exposition/infodumpery
>when the reader is more invested in it and looking for answers.
It's the most action-oriented scene that I think might make a good
opening. In the original, this was deep in Chapter 4, the first part
of the chapter being the preparations for the mission.
The infodumps were much smaller because they were the second half of
information introduced earlier (i.e. he was told to hug his legs
tightly because he was going to a porcelainized receiver. When he
arrived, he griped about all of them being so small.)
I'm not sure how I'd work in a lot of that information later because I
want to show one legitimate mission and gloss over the others, keeping
the focus on what was important to him rather than what he did for his
job.
wrote:
>On 8/25/2012 6:44 PM, Jymesion wrote:
>> I have to thank you because that's exactly what I need to hear.
>>
>> That said, I didn't *want* to hear it. ;)
>
>Sorry. It's a lot easier to point to stuff in someone else's stories
>than see them your own, if that helps any.
That's why I posted and asked for opinions.
>> I hoped I'd included only information which was relevant to his
>> thinking at the time and which tied into his emotions. My internal
>> editor was telling me I was overdoing it. I guess now I have to admit
>> that my i.e. isn't wrong all the time.
>
>It's not necessarily wrong, but you're opening with a really interesting
>scenario mid-action, and I think the more you try to stay in the
>immediacy of that opening action, the faster the story's going to flow,
>and the more slack you'll buy yourself later for exposition/infodumpery
>when the reader is more invested in it and looking for answers.
opening. In the original, this was deep in Chapter 4, the first part
of the chapter being the preparations for the mission.
The infodumps were much smaller because they were the second half of
information introduced earlier (i.e. he was told to hug his legs
tightly because he was going to a porcelainized receiver. When he
arrived, he griped about all of them being so small.)
I'm not sure how I'd work in a lot of that information later because I
want to show one legitimate mission and gloss over the others, keeping
the focus on what was important to him rather than what he did for his
job.
Raymond Daley
Aug 25, 2012, 10:47:54 PM8/25/12
to
"Jymesion" wrote
If your set-up is simple enough and you establish when (time wise) the
person is, you can just say boat.
Then most people will fill in "it has oars" inside their own mental picture
if you use the date as a guideline.
Rowboat just looks like bad English.
>>> than forty meters long
>>Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
> Meters is the correct spelling. You wouldn't write speedometre or
> voltmetre.
Nice try, but no. And here's why.
A meter is a tool used to measure things.
A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
And don't even get me started on there, they're & their.
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:43:56 +0100, "Raymond Daley" wrote:
>>"Jymesion" wrote
>>> any comments will be appreciated.
>>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
>>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
>>lines of text.
>>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
No, just don't use a word that looks stupid when you can explain it easily.
>>"Jymesion" wrote
>>> any comments will be appreciated.
>>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
>>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
>>lines of text.
>>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
If your set-up is simple enough and you establish when (time wise) the
person is, you can just say boat.
Then most people will fill in "it has oars" inside their own mental picture
if you use the date as a guideline.
Rowboat just looks like bad English.
>>> than forty meters long
>>Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
> Meters is the correct spelling. You wouldn't write speedometre or
> voltmetre.
A meter is a tool used to measure things.
A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
And don't even get me started on there, they're & their.
Raymond Daley
Aug 25, 2012, 10:51:50 PM8/25/12
to
"John W Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:503932b2$0$6073$607e...@cv.net...
> On 2012-08-25 16:43:56 +0000, Raymond Daley said:
>> Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
>> maintains consistancy too then.
>> 1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you
>> from the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the
>> Imperial Measurement System.
>
> Your foolish bigotry is annoying enough without being made the worse by
> flat-out ignorance. The 13 Colonies and the United States never used the
> Imperial System, as it was not devised until 1824.
>
> Now go find some nice young lady to argue fish-knives with.
Way to miss my meaning, thanks.
>> Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
>> maintains consistancy too then.
>> 1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you
>> from the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the
>> Imperial Measurement System.
>
> Your foolish bigotry is annoying enough without being made the worse by
> flat-out ignorance. The 13 Colonies and the United States never used the
> Imperial System, as it was not devised until 1824.
>
> Now go find some nice young lady to argue fish-knives with.
America currently uses the Imperial system. Fuel is sold by the gallon.
Distance is generally measured in miles on the whole, also Imperial.
Most of the rest of the world went metric a long time ago.
The longer America holds out on changing over, the harder it'll be to
adjust.
I was about 2 when we switched here in the UK, I still use both systems.
Most common phrase used in that respect "What's that in real money?"
I'm glad we didn't take up the Euro, it's hard enough to learn new weights
and measurements without having to relearn all your money too.
I'm glad I was taught there's 100 pennies in the pound.
That old system, no clue how people understood it, there's no logic to it at
all.
David Friedman
Aug 25, 2012, 11:00:05 PM8/25/12
to
In article <pcg_r.34689$wF1....@fx17.am4>,
of the Carolingian monetary reform.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
"Raymond Daley" <raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I'm glad I was taught there's 100 pennies in the pound.
> That old system, no clue how people understood it, there's no logic to it at
> all.
Sure there is--you just need to understand the circumstances at the time
> I'm glad I was taught there's 100 pennies in the pound.
> That old system, no clue how people understood it, there's no logic to it at
> all.
of the Carolingian monetary reform.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Suzanne
Aug 25, 2012, 11:52:58 PM8/25/12
to
On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>
> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
> And don't even get me started on there, they're& their.
No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the same
> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>
> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
> And don't even get me started on there, they're& their.
word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance) while
there, they're, and their are three entirely different words, with
different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
-Suzanne
Kay Shapero
Aug 26, 2012, 1:40:27 AM8/26/12
to
In article <J8g_r.21733$Xu5....@fx10.am4>, raymon...@ntlworld.com
says...
in Southern California. I've rowed my share of 'em and called them all
rowboats - didn't make them any harder to steer or catch fish from.
Couldn't tell you what they're called in the Deep South or the Midwest,
or other portions of the US, let alone Canada, Mexico, or the various
nations in South America. Or the rest of the world. Except, thanks to
you, I now know what it's called in one portion of the UK (just out of
curiosity, which part are you in?)
--
Kay Shapero
address munged - use my first name and kayshapero dot net if you want to
email me. Actually with the decline of usenet in general and spam in
particular, maybe I should just lose the mung...
says...
>
> "Jymesion" wrote
> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:43:56 +0100, "Raymond Daley" wrote:
> >>"Jymesion" wrote
> >>> any comments will be appreciated.
> >>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
> >>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
> >>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
> >>lines of text.
> >>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> > So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
>
> No, just don't use a word that looks stupid when you can explain it easily.
Actually "Rowing boat" would look strange to me, as an American resident
> "Jymesion" wrote
> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:43:56 +0100, "Raymond Daley" wrote:
> >>"Jymesion" wrote
> >>> any comments will be appreciated.
> >>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
> >>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
> >>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
> >>lines of text.
> >>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> > So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
>
> No, just don't use a word that looks stupid when you can explain it easily.
in Southern California. I've rowed my share of 'em and called them all
rowboats - didn't make them any harder to steer or catch fish from.
Couldn't tell you what they're called in the Deep South or the Midwest,
or other portions of the US, let alone Canada, Mexico, or the various
nations in South America. Or the rest of the world. Except, thanks to
you, I now know what it's called in one portion of the UK (just out of
curiosity, which part are you in?)
--
Kay Shapero
address munged - use my first name and kayshapero dot net if you want to
email me. Actually with the decline of usenet in general and spam in
particular, maybe I should just lose the mung...
Jymesion
Aug 26, 2012, 4:46:43 AM8/26/12
to
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 03:47:54 +0100, "Raymond Daley"
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Jymesion" wrote
Consider me a clod, but if I find a word in every dictionary and a
quick Google search reveals its presence in award-winning novels, I
think I'll be bold enough to use it.
>> Meters is the correct spelling. You wouldn't write speedometre or
>> voltmetre.
>Nice try, but no. And here's why.
>
>A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
Shakespeare didn't change the spelling of the word "measure" depending
on whether he used it as a noun or a verb, so I think it's best I
avoid doing so.
Besides, the -re- instead of -er- comes from the French, and I'm not
writing for the French.
I suppose next you'll berate me for leaving out u's all over the
place.
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Jymesion" wrote
>> So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
>
>No, just don't use a word that looks stupid when you can explain it easily.
There's an easier way than using its proper name?
>
>No, just don't use a word that looks stupid when you can explain it easily.
Consider me a clod, but if I find a word in every dictionary and a
quick Google search reveals its presence in award-winning novels, I
think I'll be bold enough to use it.
>> Meters is the correct spelling. You wouldn't write speedometre or
>> voltmetre.
>Nice try, but no. And here's why.
>
>A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
on whether he used it as a noun or a verb, so I think it's best I
avoid doing so.
Besides, the -re- instead of -er- comes from the French, and I'm not
writing for the French.
I suppose next you'll berate me for leaving out u's all over the
place.
Jymesion
Aug 26, 2012, 4:46:43 AM8/26/12
to
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:40:27 -0700, Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net>
wrote:
> I've rowed my share of 'em and called them all rowboats
I'm sure it's universal. The phrase "not as sharp as a rowboat" was
used on both coasts, in the Midwest, and in the deep South.
wrote:
> I've rowed my share of 'em and called them all rowboats
used on both coasts, in the Midwest, and in the deep South.
JF
Aug 26, 2012, 4:42:19 AM8/26/12
to
>> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
-- in fact, used to such an extent that anyone wishing to sell sf
or fantasy would be well advised to use it when submitting to the
majority of markets.
Judging from the spelling of Colonel John Flood, an ancient
settler before the original colonies, 17th century people had
little truck with spelling. Otherwise there would be fewer Fludds
and Fluds and Fludes around.
JF
Ahem. You know I spoke of living in a fantasy world? A kinsman
named Lloyd or variants therof, who ended up as Flude, rescued
the Emperor of Austria's battle banner and was awarded his own
arms, the Emperor's arms but with a silver shield instead of
gold. I'd rather like to bucket around with a double-headed eagle
painted on the Midget door. And I've found a Nicholas who ties
the Norfolk Floods with the Kentish Fludds, which takes us back
to a Prince of Powys in the female line and through him to... Old
King Coel. And King Pepin 1. And the father of Charlemagne.
Yesterday, teams from all over the world competed in the 100 mile
endurance race for horses, the route running through the village
and straight past my daughter's house. The finish was on the
Duke's estate. The Sheik's team won and the Sheik gained the
individual prize.
I am living in a work of fiction. All I need now is for someone
to recognise my unique theory of global warming and I'll _know_
I'm dreaming.
John W Kennedy
Aug 26, 2012, 10:02:54 AM8/26/12
to
On 2012-08-26 02:51:50 +0000, Raymond Daley said:
> "John W Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:503932b2$0$6073$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 2012-08-25 16:43:56 +0000, Raymond Daley said:
>>> Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
>>> maintains consistancy too then.
>>> 1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you
>>> from the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the
>>> Imperial Measurement System.
>>
>> Your foolish bigotry is annoying enough without being made the worse by
>> flat-out ignorance. The 13 Colonies and the United States never used
>> the Imperial System, as it was not devised until 1824.
>>
>> Now go find some nice young lady to argue fish-knives with.
>
> Way to miss my meaning, thanks.
> America currently uses the Imperial system. Fuel is sold by the gallon.
> Distance is generally measured in miles on the whole, also Imperial.
You're wrong, you bloody ignoramus. The US uses, and has used from the
> "John W Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:503932b2$0$6073$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 2012-08-25 16:43:56 +0000, Raymond Daley said:
>>> Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
>>> maintains consistancy too then.
>>> 1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you
>>> from the wrong spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the
>>> Imperial Measurement System.
>>
>> Your foolish bigotry is annoying enough without being made the worse by
>> flat-out ignorance. The 13 Colonies and the United States never used
>> the Imperial System, as it was not devised until 1824.
>>
>> Now go find some nice young lady to argue fish-knives with.
>
> Way to miss my meaning, thanks.
> America currently uses the Imperial system. Fuel is sold by the gallon.
> Distance is generally measured in miles on the whole, also Imperial.
beginning, the US Customary System. The Imperial System didn't even
exist when the US was founded, and would not exist for nearly fifty
years.
> Most of the rest of the world went metric a long time ago.
that is evident in your abusive spelling of poor, innocent English
words like "center" and "honor". Tell me, did Henry V, Marlborough,
Wolfe, and Wellington live and die in vain? Must English poets bid
farewell forever to their native metric beauties and recast all their
verse in slogging alexandrines with carefully numbered syllables? Shall
the roast beef of old England fall before le bifteck and the Union Jack
be rationalized into a mere tricolor, until every English Yeoman is
compelled to become his own René Artois?
> The longer America holds out on changing over, the harder it'll be to adjust.
> I was about 2 when we switched here in the UK, I still use both systems.
> Most common phrase used in that respect "What's that in real money?"
>
> I'm glad we didn't take up the Euro, it's hard enough to learn new
> weights and measurements without having to relearn all your money too.
> I'm glad I was taught there's 100 pennies in the pound.
> That old system, no clue how people understood it, there's no logic to
> it at all.
straight, Scottish shillings, Guineas, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all.
--
John W Kennedy
Having switched to a Mac in disgust at Microsoft's combination of
incompetence and criminality.
Dorothy J Heydt
Aug 26, 2012, 1:01:51 PM8/26/12
to
In article <yi7_r.39124$zl3....@fx22.am4>,
UK or Canada or some other places that uses British spelling
conventions, then you have a point. If not, not.
>> central rock standing three meters above the water.
>Again, either spell metres correctly or just use feet.
See above.
or vomit and there is no plumbing-equivalent on board, you go to
the lee rail. By the way, it's pronounced "loo-ard."
>Not everyone sails. Even less use the proper terms.
I don't sail, and I know it.
>1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you from
>the wrong
s/wrong/different/
spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the Imperial
>Measurement System.
>
with English spelling rules, I don't wince; I just observe to
myself, "Ah. British spelling." The sun set on the British Empire
around 1950.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Raymond Daley <raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Jymesion" wrote
>> any comments will be appreciated.
>
>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
>lines of text.
>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
"Rowboat" is the standard USian form of the word.
>"Jymesion" wrote
>> any comments will be appreciated.
>
>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
>lines of text.
>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
>
>> than forty meters long
>Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
>
Again ... standard USian spelling. Now, if Jymesion live in the
>> than forty meters long
>Either spell metres correctly or just use feet?
>
UK or Canada or some other places that uses British spelling
conventions, then you have a point. If not, not.
>> central rock standing three meters above the water.
>Again, either spell metres correctly or just use feet.
>
>> the remains of a fire on the leeward side
>pick a less technical term, I had to Google leeward. And was still
>confused.
It's the side of the boat away from the wind. If you have to pee
>> the remains of a fire on the leeward side
>pick a less technical term, I had to Google leeward. And was still
>confused.
or vomit and there is no plumbing-equivalent on board, you go to
the lee rail. By the way, it's pronounced "loo-ard."
>Not everyone sails. Even less use the proper terms.
>
>> No piece of it could be more than forty inches
>Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
>maintains consistancy too then.
Now, here you have a point. Use one set of units or the other.
>> No piece of it could be more than forty inches
>Stick with feet and inches. That then skips spelling metres wrong, it
>maintains consistancy too then.
>1st law of writing, write what you know. As an American (I pegged you from
>the wrong
spelling of metre) thats the mangled version of the Imperial
>Measurement System.
>
>> travelers
>Double l please? I wince when I read American English spellings.
>If Stephen King can avoid them then there's no reason why everyone else
>can't too.
Americans spell by American rules. When I read books written
>Double l please? I wince when I read American English spellings.
>If Stephen King can avoid them then there's no reason why everyone else
>can't too.
with English spelling rules, I don't wince; I just observe to
myself, "Ah. British spelling." The sun set on the British Empire
around 1950.
>
>> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
>Did it draw me in? Lots, I enjoyed reading it apart from the Americanisms
>which always annoy me as a Brit.
This is YOUR problem. Honestly, you sound like Henry Higgins.
>> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
>Did it draw me in? Lots, I enjoyed reading it apart from the Americanisms
>which always annoy me as a Brit.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Will in New Haven
Aug 26, 2012, 3:57:55 PM8/26/12
to
On Aug 26, 1:40 am, Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net> wrote:
> In article <J8g_r.21733$Xu5.16...@fx10.am4>, raymond.da...@ntlworld.com
"dorry" or some other colorful nautical term.
And meter can be spelled either way.
--
Will in New Haven
> In article <J8g_r.21733$Xu5.16...@fx10.am4>, raymond.da...@ntlworld.com
> says...
>
>
>
> > "Jymesion" wrote
> > > On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:43:56 +0100, "Raymond Daley" wrote:
> > >>"Jymesion" wrote
> > >>> any comments will be appreciated.
> > >>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
> > >>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
> > >>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
> > >>lines of text.
> > >>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> > > So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
>
> > No, just don't use a word that looks stupid when you can explain it easily.
>
> Actually "Rowing boat" would look strange to me, as an American resident
> in Southern California. I've rowed my share of 'em and called them all
> rowboats - didn't make them any harder to steer or catch fish from.
> Couldn't tell you what they're called in the Deep South or the Midwest,
> or other portions of the US, let alone Canada, Mexico, or the various
> nations in South America. Or the rest of the world. Except, thanks to
> you, I now know what it's called in one portion of the UK (just out of
> curiosity, which part are you in?)
It's "rowboat" in the midwest, New England, the south, except if it's
>
>
>
> > "Jymesion" wrote
> > > On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:43:56 +0100, "Raymond Daley" wrote:
> > >>"Jymesion" wrote
> > >>> any comments will be appreciated.
> > >>> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
> > >>Rowing boat or just boat please. Rowboat just looks so WRONG.
> > >>If you say boat, you can easily mention oars or sails within the next few
> > >>lines of text.
> > >>Which then stops us wondering any further about the type of boat.
> > > So I should add several lines to make it plain instead of one word?
>
> > No, just don't use a word that looks stupid when you can explain it easily.
>
> Actually "Rowing boat" would look strange to me, as an American resident
> in Southern California. I've rowed my share of 'em and called them all
> rowboats - didn't make them any harder to steer or catch fish from.
> Couldn't tell you what they're called in the Deep South or the Midwest,
> or other portions of the US, let alone Canada, Mexico, or the various
> nations in South America. Or the rest of the world. Except, thanks to
> you, I now know what it's called in one portion of the UK (just out of
> curiosity, which part are you in?)
"dorry" or some other colorful nautical term.
And meter can be spelled either way.
--
Will in New Haven
Dorothy J Heydt
Aug 26, 2012, 4:45:18 PM8/26/12
to
In article <2aki38huft5ut9b5k...@4ax.com>,
The MMO _The Lord of the Rings Online_ recently introduced the
Steed (that is, horse or pony depending on the player character's
size) of the Lore-master.
Here are several screenshots of it; the third is the best. Note
that in addition addition to scrolls and books, it carries
writing equipment: pens, vellum-scrapers, and pumice stones.
http://www.danania.net/2012/08/steed-of-lore-master-farmers-faire-end.html
Steed (that is, horse or pony depending on the player character's
size) of the Lore-master.
Here are several screenshots of it; the third is the best. Note
that in addition addition to scrolls and books, it carries
writing equipment: pens, vellum-scrapers, and pumice stones.
http://www.danania.net/2012/08/steed-of-lore-master-farmers-faire-end.html
Jymesion
Aug 26, 2012, 6:13:35 PM8/26/12
to
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 20:45:18 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
> Note
>that in addition addition to scrolls and books, it carries
>writing equipment: pens, vellum-scrapers, and pumice stones.
The problem is dumping it on the reader without preamble. If they're
Heydt) wrote:
> Note
>that in addition addition to scrolls and books, it carries
>writing equipment: pens, vellum-scrapers, and pumice stones.
not thinking about a scribe's tools (and there's no reason they should
when starting a story), they might wonder what kind of scraper is made
of vellum.
Jacey Bedford
Aug 26, 2012, 2:52:14 PM8/26/12
to
In message <peji38pdkfbinetd3...@4ax.com>, Jymesion
<nore...@jymes.com> writes
opposite sides of the Atlantic. Use the spelling of your own country and
let the publisher decide whether to change it or not. It's not a big
deal.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<nore...@jymes.com> writes
>Meters is the correct spelling. You wouldn't write speedometre or
>voltmetre.
There is no 'correct'. Metre and metre are spelled differently on
>voltmetre.
opposite sides of the Atlantic. Use the spelling of your own country and
let the publisher decide whether to change it or not. It's not a big
deal.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Jacey Bedford
Aug 26, 2012, 4:40:21 PM8/26/12
to
In message <6rnj38hue0kl7kvm0...@4ax.com>, Jymesion
<nore...@jymes.com> writes
Rowboat is not universal, though it may be used throughout America. In
the UK it would be 'rowing boat.' Rowboat would be understood, but it
would lend an American feel to the work. If that's what you wanted to
convey then rowboat is fine. If you didn't want to pin it in space and
time then using a word which is _universal_ would be a better choice.
Dinghy is a loanword from Bengali or Urdu according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinghy
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<nore...@jymes.com> writes
the UK it would be 'rowing boat.' Rowboat would be understood, but it
would lend an American feel to the work. If that's what you wanted to
convey then rowboat is fine. If you didn't want to pin it in space and
time then using a word which is _universal_ would be a better choice.
Dinghy is a loanword from Bengali or Urdu according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinghy
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Jacey Bedford
Aug 26, 2012, 2:48:22 PM8/26/12
to
In message <pcg_r.34689$wF1....@fx17.am4>, Raymond Daley
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> writes
it.
4 farthings to the penny
2 ha'pennies to the penny
12 pennies to the shilling
(or 4 threepenny bits or 2 sixpences to the shilling)
2 shillings to a florin
2 shillings and 6 pennies to the half crown
2 half crowns to the crown
20 shillings to the pound
240 pennies to the pound
4 crowns to the pound
8 half crowns to the pound
10 florins to the pound
etc.
A shilling is commonly called a 'bob'
A sixpence is commonly called a 'tanner'
I pay for an item costing two shillings with a half crown. How much
change do I get? A tanner.
Where's the problem?
Jacey
(20 when the money system changed to decimal so the old one is pretty
well stuck in my head forever)
--
Jacey Bedford
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> writes
>That old system, no clue how people understood it, there's no logic to
>it at all.
Easy. You know it because you were taught it. Logic doesn't enter in to
>it at all.
it.
4 farthings to the penny
2 ha'pennies to the penny
12 pennies to the shilling
(or 4 threepenny bits or 2 sixpences to the shilling)
2 shillings to a florin
2 shillings and 6 pennies to the half crown
2 half crowns to the crown
20 shillings to the pound
240 pennies to the pound
4 crowns to the pound
8 half crowns to the pound
10 florins to the pound
etc.
A shilling is commonly called a 'bob'
A sixpence is commonly called a 'tanner'
I pay for an item costing two shillings with a half crown. How much
change do I get? A tanner.
Where's the problem?
Jacey
(20 when the money system changed to decimal so the old one is pretty
well stuck in my head forever)
--
Jacey Bedford
Jacey Bedford
Aug 26, 2012, 4:53:51 PM8/26/12
to
In message <ZbidneBLueDufKTN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
back as far as I can trace. The rest are nailmakers. And beyond that
peasants right back to 1600. Not one of them remarkable let alone
famous. We didn't get out of the coal mines until my parents'
generation.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
>Ahem. You know I spoke of living in a fantasy world? A kinsman named
>Lloyd or variants therof, who ended up as Flude, rescued the Emperor of
>Austria's battle banner and was awarded his own arms, the Emperor's
>arms but with a silver shield instead of gold. I'd rather like to
>bucket around with a double-headed eagle painted on the Midget door.
>And I've found a Nicholas who ties the Norfolk Floods with the Kentish
>Fludds, which takes us back to a Prince of Powys in the female line and
>through him to... Old King Coel. And King Pepin 1. And the father of
>Charlemagne.
Damn and all I've got is a set of coal miners on almost every line going
>Lloyd or variants therof, who ended up as Flude, rescued the Emperor of
>Austria's battle banner and was awarded his own arms, the Emperor's
>arms but with a silver shield instead of gold. I'd rather like to
>bucket around with a double-headed eagle painted on the Midget door.
>And I've found a Nicholas who ties the Norfolk Floods with the Kentish
>Fludds, which takes us back to a Prince of Powys in the female line and
>through him to... Old King Coel. And King Pepin 1. And the father of
>Charlemagne.
back as far as I can trace. The rest are nailmakers. And beyond that
peasants right back to 1600. Not one of them remarkable let alone
famous. We didn't get out of the coal mines until my parents'
generation.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
David Friedman
Aug 26, 2012, 6:40:55 PM8/26/12
to
In article <WT5808Cf...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
Al Tanukhi has a story about two bedouins arguing over genealogy.
Finally one of them says:
"What it comes down to is that you are the end of your genealogy, and I
am the beginning of mine."
Finally one of them says:
"What it comes down to is that you are the end of your genealogy, and I
am the beginning of mine."
Dorothy J Heydt
Aug 26, 2012, 6:36:35 PM8/26/12
to
My great-grandfather helped run the Underground Railroad, and my
grandmother *claimed* that her family were descended from
Founding Father Alexander Hamilton, but I don't believe it.
Those are the only interesting relatives I've got.
We do have Edwin Stanton, Lincoln's Secretary of War, as a
collater relative, but (if the story is true*) he's nothing to
brag about.
_____
*The story goes -- I've never researched it so I don't know if
it's been proven or disproven -- that he hired Booth to kill
Lincoln, someone else to kill VP Johnson, and a third party to
kill Secretary of State Seward. Eliminate those three men, and
Stanton would've been President. (The rules of succession have
since been changed.) Booth killed Lincoln, the third guy wounded
Seward but he recovered, and the guy who was supposed to kill
Johnson got drunk and blabbed. So the story goes. I wonder if
it's on snopes anywhere?
Dorothy J Heydt
Aug 26, 2012, 6:37:28 PM8/26/12
to
In article <bo7l381d0e4870f42...@4ax.com>,
Oh, sure. I agree it should not appear in the story without
proper introduction. It's just an example of how Turbine's devs
and artists do their homework.
proper introduction. It's just an example of how Turbine's devs
and artists do their homework.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Aug 26, 2012, 7:07:02 PM8/26/12
to
On 8/26/12 6:36 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <WT5808Cf...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
> Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In message <ZbidneBLueDufKTN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
>> <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
>>> Ahem. You know I spoke of living in a fantasy world? A kinsman named
>>> Lloyd or variants therof, who ended up as Flude, rescued the Emperor of
>>> Austria's battle banner and was awarded his own arms, the Emperor's
>>> arms but with a silver shield instead of gold. I'd rather like to
>>> bucket around with a double-headed eagle painted on the Midget door.
>>> And I've found a Nicholas who ties the Norfolk Floods with the Kentish
>>> Fludds, which takes us back to a Prince of Powys in the female line and
>>> through him to... Old King Coel. And King Pepin 1. And the father of
>>> Charlemagne.
>>
>>
>> Damn and all I've got is a set of coal miners on almost every line going
>> back as far as I can trace. The rest are nailmakers. And beyond that
>> peasants right back to 1600. Not one of them remarkable let alone
>> famous. We didn't get out of the coal mines until my parents'
>> generation.
>
> Gosh.
>
> My great-grandfather helped run the Underground Railroad, and my
> grandmother *claimed* that her family were descended from
> Founding Father Alexander Hamilton, but I don't believe it.
> Those are the only interesting relatives I've got.
>
I was told that on my mother's side we're descended from Leif Ericson
> In article <WT5808Cf...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
> Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In message <ZbidneBLueDufKTN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
>> <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
>>> Ahem. You know I spoke of living in a fantasy world? A kinsman named
>>> Lloyd or variants therof, who ended up as Flude, rescued the Emperor of
>>> Austria's battle banner and was awarded his own arms, the Emperor's
>>> arms but with a silver shield instead of gold. I'd rather like to
>>> bucket around with a double-headed eagle painted on the Midget door.
>>> And I've found a Nicholas who ties the Norfolk Floods with the Kentish
>>> Fludds, which takes us back to a Prince of Powys in the female line and
>>> through him to... Old King Coel. And King Pepin 1. And the father of
>>> Charlemagne.
>>
>>
>> Damn and all I've got is a set of coal miners on almost every line going
>> back as far as I can trace. The rest are nailmakers. And beyond that
>> peasants right back to 1600. Not one of them remarkable let alone
>> famous. We didn't get out of the coal mines until my parents'
>> generation.
>
> Gosh.
>
> My great-grandfather helped run the Underground Railroad, and my
> grandmother *claimed* that her family were descended from
> Founding Father Alexander Hamilton, but I don't believe it.
> Those are the only interesting relatives I've got.
>
and Eric the Red. But I doubt that (A) there's any way to know (did old
Leif have any children known to have survived, etc?), and (B) even if
true, there'd probably be a *lot* of such descendants.
Other than that there is as far as I know not a single person of
particular interest in my ancestry.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Jacey Bedford
Aug 26, 2012, 7:12:09 PM8/26/12
to
In message <M9Dw4...@kithrup.com>, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
It was said that my (much older) cousin-once-removed researched that
side of the family (my father's mother's side) and traced them back to
16th century Cornwall and discovered that one line consisted of pirates
and the other lunatics. Unfortunately she died before I could ask her
about it, but when we cleared out her house there was no genealogical
stuff anywhere, so phooey. Just a story.
Her grandfather (my g-g-grandfather) actually lied about coming from St
Ives (Cornwall) even though it was in the family bible that he did. He
actually came from New Hall, Staffordshire and was - yes, you guessed it
- a coal miner.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
side of the family (my father's mother's side) and traced them back to
16th century Cornwall and discovered that one line consisted of pirates
and the other lunatics. Unfortunately she died before I could ask her
about it, but when we cleared out her house there was no genealogical
stuff anywhere, so phooey. Just a story.
Her grandfather (my g-g-grandfather) actually lied about coming from St
Ives (Cornwall) even though it was in the family bible that he did. He
actually came from New Hall, Staffordshire and was - yes, you guessed it
- a coal miner.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
John W Kennedy
Aug 26, 2012, 10:37:15 PM8/26/12
to
President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of
Representatives came next; cabinet officers didn't come into it at all.
Furthermore, anyone after the Vice President would not become
President, but Acting President, and a new election had to be held
(depending on certain circumstances) the next November or the November
following.
--
John W Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)
JF
Aug 27, 2012, 2:38:10 AM8/27/12
to
On 26/08/2012 21:53, Jacey Bedford wrote:
> Damn and all I've got is a set of coal miners on almost every
> line going back as far as I can trace. The rest are nailmakers.
> And beyond that peasants right back to 1600. Not one of them
> remarkable let alone famous. We didn't get out of the coal mines
> until my parents' generation.
Nothing wrong with peasants: on my mother's side it's peasants
> Damn and all I've got is a set of coal miners on almost every
> line going back as far as I can trace. The rest are nailmakers.
> And beyond that peasants right back to 1600. Not one of them
> remarkable let alone famous. We didn't get out of the coal mines
> until my parents' generation.
all the way down. Kinge, a good peasant name.
JF
JF
Aug 27, 2012, 2:45:41 AM8/27/12
to
On 27/08/2012 00:12, Jacey Bedford wrote:
> t one line
> consisted of pirates and the other lunatics.
Nothing to be ashamed of. [gloomily] One of mine was an MP...
> t one line
> consisted of pirates and the other lunatics.
JF
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Aug 27, 2012, 2:59:10 AM8/27/12
to
Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
...
logical than 100. How often you had to divide ₤10 into thirds?
(60 or 360 are another possibilities, both well known in our reckoning)
The advantage of switching to the base-12 system and all...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
...
> 240 pennies to the pound
Actually, dividing your currency unit into 240 pieces makes is more
logical than 100. How often you had to divide ₤10 into thirds?
(60 or 360 are another possibilities, both well known in our reckoning)
The advantage of switching to the base-12 system and all...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Aug 27, 2012, 3:04:14 AM8/27/12
to
Raymond Daley <raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I'm glad we didn't take up the Euro, it's hard enough to learn new weights
> and measurements without having to relearn all your money too.
GBP and EUR face values are quite compatible in purchasing power. There
> I'm glad we didn't take up the Euro, it's hard enough to learn new weights
> and measurements without having to relearn all your money too.
was even time when the exchange rate was close to 1. So it will be
mostly a matter of learning new banknote and coin design. Though I
wonder what would Scottish and NI banks do - funny if they'd negotiate
the right to continue issuing their own pounds.
ObSF: Rule 34 by Charles Stross.
John W Kennedy
Aug 27, 2012, 9:09:27 AM8/27/12
to
Jymesion
Aug 27, 2012, 10:49:16 AM8/27/12
to
On 27 Aug 2012 13:09:27 GMT, John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.neg>
wrote:
wrote:
>Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
>> The problem is dumping it on the reader without preamble. If they're
>> not thinking about a scribe's tools (and there's no reason they should
>> when starting a story), they might wonder what kind of scraper is made
>> of vellum.
>
>Not if it's spelled with a hyphen and the readers are reasonably literate.
I've learned to never underestimate what a speed-reader might miss.
>> The problem is dumping it on the reader without preamble. If they're
>> not thinking about a scribe's tools (and there's no reason they should
>> when starting a story), they might wonder what kind of scraper is made
>> of vellum.
>
>Not if it's spelled with a hyphen and the readers are reasonably literate.
Raymond Daley
Aug 27, 2012, 10:43:00 AM8/27/12
to
"Jymesion" <nore...@jymes.com> wrote in message
news:752n38pbb7tbijjd1...@4ax.com...
that wrong ;-)
Googled it for images, best match looked more like a weapon than anything to
do with writing.
Jymesion
Aug 27, 2012, 9:37:03 PM8/27/12
to
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:40:21 +0100, Jacey Bedford
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> If you didn't want to pin it in space and
>time then using a word which is _universal_ would be a better choice.
I don't think there is a truly universal word with the same meaning.
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> If you didn't want to pin it in space and
>time then using a word which is _universal_ would be a better choice.
>Dinghy is a loanword from Bengali or Urdu according to Wikipedia:
by oars is a small fraction of the whole.
I need a word which implies its size, portends he'll have to work to
get somewhere, and is common to the majority of my target audience.
Bill Swears
Aug 28, 2012, 3:28:20 AM8/28/12
to
I'm coming in late, but who is your target audience?
Bill
--
Amazon Author Central - www.amazon.com/author/billswears
Zook Country - http://twilighttimesbooks.com/ZookCountry_ch1.html
Also at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and other fine ebook emporia.
Puppies - http://www.mtaonline.net/~wswears/
Opinions - http://wswears.livejournal.com/
Jymesion
Aug 28, 2012, 8:03:32 AM8/28/12
to
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 23:28:20 -0800, Bill Swears <wsw...@gci.net>
wrote:
>I'm coming in late,
In the original text, the protag has exited a tunnel, and:
Text:
The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
barely tall enough for him to stand upright. . . .
A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
End Text.
It is the suggestion of some that I change it to:
Text:
The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
barely tall enough for him to stand upright. . . .
In the room was a boat.
It was devoid of the internal structures necessary to support a mast
on which a sail could be attached, as well as missing a mast itself,
and there was no sail, or anything which might have been used as a
sail, within view.
The vessel had neither motor (electric, fossil-fueled, or sfnal) nor
any of the reinforcements on the stern typically used for the
attachment of a mechanical means of propulsion. It also lacked a
compartment or bracing for the secure containment of a battery or fuel
tank so often seen in motorized craft.
Most telling was the absence of a rudder, tiller, or other means of
directing its course, a fixture usually considered essential when a
craft's motive force is supplied by any means other than the muscles
of the person employing it, in which case, and at those times, a
desired change of heading being implemented by varying the amount of
movement of one propelling unit (commonly called an "oar") or the
other so as to provide greater impulse on one side of the craft, and
the usual laws of physics and hydrodynamics dictating a resulting
change in orientation of the long axis of the craft.
Overall, the boat's size, design, and configuration denoted its
potential means of propulsion was limited to a single set of oars
manned by a lone individual.
When he noticed it, the word "rowboat" flitted through his mind, but
he quickly quelled the thought, such a word being fit only for
guttersnipes and 'mericans.
End Text.
:)
> but who is your target audience?
Americans.
wrote:
>I'm coming in late,
Text:
The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
barely tall enough for him to stand upright. . . .
A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor.
It is the suggestion of some that I change it to:
Text:
The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
barely tall enough for him to stand upright. . . .
In the room was a boat.
It was devoid of the internal structures necessary to support a mast
on which a sail could be attached, as well as missing a mast itself,
and there was no sail, or anything which might have been used as a
sail, within view.
The vessel had neither motor (electric, fossil-fueled, or sfnal) nor
any of the reinforcements on the stern typically used for the
attachment of a mechanical means of propulsion. It also lacked a
compartment or bracing for the secure containment of a battery or fuel
tank so often seen in motorized craft.
Most telling was the absence of a rudder, tiller, or other means of
directing its course, a fixture usually considered essential when a
craft's motive force is supplied by any means other than the muscles
of the person employing it, in which case, and at those times, a
desired change of heading being implemented by varying the amount of
movement of one propelling unit (commonly called an "oar") or the
other so as to provide greater impulse on one side of the craft, and
the usual laws of physics and hydrodynamics dictating a resulting
change in orientation of the long axis of the craft.
Overall, the boat's size, design, and configuration denoted its
potential means of propulsion was limited to a single set of oars
manned by a lone individual.
When he noticed it, the word "rowboat" flitted through his mind, but
he quickly quelled the thought, such a word being fit only for
guttersnipes and 'mericans.
End Text.
:)
> but who is your target audience?
Jacey Bedford
Aug 28, 2012, 11:50:49 AM8/28/12
to
In message <aMidnQseZrkDiqbN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
Oh dear, my lot never stooped so low. (Even when working a three foot
seam.)
:-)
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
seam.)
:-)
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
JF
Aug 28, 2012, 2:12:14 PM8/28/12
to
On 28/08/2012 16:50, Jacey Bedford wrote:
> Oh dear, my lot never stooped so low. (Even when working a three
> foot seam.)
Three foot? Looxury...
> Oh dear, my lot never stooped so low. (Even when working a three
> foot seam.)
(SWMBO's family had miners. Her uncle, who looked after the pit
ponies, died in a mining accident.
JF
Kay Shapero
Aug 28, 2012, 5:19:21 PM8/28/12
to
In article <UQZM00XZ...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
look...@nospam.invalid says...
Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
--
Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.
look...@nospam.invalid says...
>
> In message <aMidnQseZrkDiqbN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
> <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
> In message <aMidnQseZrkDiqbN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
> <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
> > n 27/08/2012 00:12, Jacey Bedford wrote:
> >
> >> t one line consisted of pirates and the other lunatics.
> >
> >
> >
> >> t one line consisted of pirates and the other lunatics.
> >
> >
> > othing to be ashamed of. [gloomily] One of mine was an MP...
> >
> >
> > F
> >
> Oh dear, my lot never stooped so low. (Even when working a three foot
> seam.)
> : )
> >
> Oh dear, my lot never stooped so low. (Even when working a three foot
> seam.)
Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
--
Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.
Jacey Bedford
Aug 28, 2012, 8:21:36 PM8/28/12
to
In message <GcKdneDG8IGXl6DN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
It happened a lot.
In 1898 my g-g-uncle and g-g-grandfather were working side by side when
a shear dropped a few tons of roof onto g-g-uncle. G-g-grandfather,
standing next to him, was uninjured but I have the newspaper report
where he was called to give evidence in the enquiry.
Also Brian's g-g-grandfather - aged 40 - and his two eldest sons - aged
19 and 17 were all killed together in the Oakes Colliery disaster of
1866 (Barnsley). Still the 10th biggest coalmining disaster ever in
terms of deaths with over 300 killed in the initial and secondary
explosions. The secondary explosions caught the rescue teams that went
in to get survivors from the first blast.
But of course it wasn't just the accidents. My maternal grandfather
survived his working life in the pits, but my step g-father died of
pneumoconiosis in his 50s. Also Brian's g-father died of (supposedly)
pneumonia at the age of 61 but it was mining related. His lungs were
shot.
He was absolutely determined that no child (or grandchild) of his was
going down the pit even though her was a strong union man.
My grandfather also looked after pit ponies for a time. It was one of
the jobs that youngsters did before they'd developed enough muscle for
the coalface. We still have the biscuit barrel (odd thing, I know) that
he was presented with for kindness to pit ponies. I wish I knew the
story behind it, but even my mum doesn't know.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
In 1898 my g-g-uncle and g-g-grandfather were working side by side when
a shear dropped a few tons of roof onto g-g-uncle. G-g-grandfather,
standing next to him, was uninjured but I have the newspaper report
where he was called to give evidence in the enquiry.
Also Brian's g-g-grandfather - aged 40 - and his two eldest sons - aged
19 and 17 were all killed together in the Oakes Colliery disaster of
1866 (Barnsley). Still the 10th biggest coalmining disaster ever in
terms of deaths with over 300 killed in the initial and secondary
explosions. The secondary explosions caught the rescue teams that went
in to get survivors from the first blast.
But of course it wasn't just the accidents. My maternal grandfather
survived his working life in the pits, but my step g-father died of
pneumoconiosis in his 50s. Also Brian's g-father died of (supposedly)
pneumonia at the age of 61 but it was mining related. His lungs were
shot.
He was absolutely determined that no child (or grandchild) of his was
going down the pit even though her was a strong union man.
My grandfather also looked after pit ponies for a time. It was one of
the jobs that youngsters did before they'd developed enough muscle for
the coalface. We still have the biscuit barrel (odd thing, I know) that
he was presented with for kindness to pit ponies. I wish I knew the
story behind it, but even my mum doesn't know.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Jacey Bedford
Aug 28, 2012, 8:22:29 PM8/28/12
to
In message <MPG.2aa6d5b0...@news.eternal-september.org>, Kay
Shapero <k...@invalid.net> writes
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Shapero <k...@invalid.net> writes
>In article <UQZM00XZ...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
>look...@nospam.invalid says...
>>
>> In message <aMidnQseZrkDiqbN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
>> <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
>> > n 27/08/2012 00:12, Jacey Bedford wrote:
>> >
>> >> t one line consisted of pirates and the other lunatics.
>> >
>> >
>> > othing to be ashamed of. [gloomily] One of mine was an MP...
>> >
>> > F
>> >
>> Oh dear, my lot never stooped so low. (Even when working a three foot
>> seam.)
>> : )
>
>
>Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
>younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
>inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
If you're going to do it, you might as well do it properly.
>look...@nospam.invalid says...
>>
>> In message <aMidnQseZrkDiqbN...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
>> <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
>> > n 27/08/2012 00:12, Jacey Bedford wrote:
>> >
>> >> t one line consisted of pirates and the other lunatics.
>> >
>> >
>> > othing to be ashamed of. [gloomily] One of mine was an MP...
>> >
>> > F
>> >
>> Oh dear, my lot never stooped so low. (Even when working a three foot
>> seam.)
>> : )
>
>
>Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
>younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
>inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Joy Beeson
Aug 29, 2012, 12:04:43 AM8/29/12
to
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:19:21 -0700, Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net>
wrote:
> Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
> younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
> inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
We're in-laws! My spouse is descend from the same bastard.
I suspect that I am too, but my family has never been traced back to
the old country, and there is more than one theory as to which old
country we haven't been traced back to.
When I went on vacation in southern England, a lot of the men looked
like my father and his brothers. But they were one-quarter Italian.
(We do know where my grandfather's mother came from, but not how she
got to Indiana in the nineteenth century.)
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
wrote:
> Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
> younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
> inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
I suspect that I am too, but my family has never been traced back to
the old country, and there is more than one theory as to which old
country we haven't been traced back to.
When I went on vacation in southern England, a lot of the men looked
like my father and his brothers. But they were one-quarter Italian.
(We do know where my grandfather's mother came from, but not how she
got to Indiana in the nineteenth century.)
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
Gruff
Aug 29, 2012, 5:48:40 PM8/29/12
to
On Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:33:48 PM UTC+1, Jymesion wrote:
> My usual method of writing is to begin with a strange situation. By
>
> the time I have that written, I've figured out the next scene. This
>
> gives me confidence (whether warranted or not) that the story is
>
> progressing along natural lines.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, rewriting my wsip from scratch has opened up all sorts
>
> of concerns I normally don't face.
>
>
>
> One of these is how to open the story.
>
>
>
> Here's my latest idea for the first chapter. It's not exactly a shoot
>
> the sheriff. (It's twice the length that's allowed in the FAQ, but
>
> since there isn't any competition for attention in the group right
>
> now, I hope that can be forgiven. ;) )
>
>
>
> Text:
>
>
>
> Jace's vellum-scraper cut into his hip, and his nose was squashed into
>
> his knee. The receiver was an inch smaller than the one he'd left, and
>
> the scientific principle which magicked people from one universe to
>
> another didn't compress molecules or adjust densities -- it simply
>
> crammed the traveler into the available space.
>
>
>
> He elbowed the latch to open the door. With the pressure released, his
>
> back slid across the receiver's slick porcelain lining, dumping him on
>
> his side, half in, half out, his shoulder hitting the stone floor. The
>
> tunnel was so small he'd have to crawl anyway, but it portended a
>
> problem when he had to squeeze back in for the trip home. He knew
>
> someone would eventually figure out the chronological order in which
>
> the people who invented travel had used porcelain, tin, titanium, and
>
> a dozen other coatings in the receivers. He doubted anyone would ever
>
> learn why they made them so small that travelers had to fold
>
> themselves up like magicians' assistants.
>
>
>
> The blue glow of his travelplate's screen was his only light. He
>
> slipped it out of the receiver's ceiling, moved the symbols
>
> identifying his origin into the destination window so it'd be ready in
>
> case he had to return quickly, and replaced it in its slot. After
>
> closing the door, he started crawling across the rough floor in the
>
> dark.
>
>
>
> After only ten feet, he felt the handle of the fake stone slab
>
> blocking the end of the tunnel. It took two tugs to pull it from its
>
> hole. Only darkness lay beyond. Relieved, he dug a candle and match
>
> from his satchel. The match wasn't suitable for the year 1368, but the
>
> burnt stub was the least of what the natives would find if they
>
> discovered the receiver's hiding place. He'd argued he might as well
>
> carry a lighter, but his handlers at Authority suspected he wanted to
>
> use it during the mission instead of the period-correct flint and
>
> tinder in his kit. Giving him one match made his life easier while
>
> keeping him from contaminating the locals.
>
>
>
> By the light of the candle, he saw the clock left by a previous
>
> traveler. There was an hour's difference between its reading and what
>
> he'd been told it should be. Time not only passed at different rates
>
> in different universes, it sometimes changed speed or went in fits and
>
> starts within one. Jace didn't care about the theories of how or why;
>
> what mattered to him was he'd arrived earlier than expected, so he
>
> wouldn't have to hurry.
>
> in a recess near the ceiling, he moved the fake stone slab back into
>
> place and smoothed the seams over with his hand. It looked so much
>
> like the surrounding wall that the edges seemed to disappear.
>
>
>
> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor. He laid his satchel, cloak,
>
> and pouch of scribe's tools in it and shuffled along the narrow space
>
> beside it to reach the front of the room. Two slabs, side by side and
>
> less than three feet tall, were doors, with a narrow piece closing the
>
> gap between them. He moved that slat slowly, looking and listening
>
> for anything out of place. Only pre-dawn light and the sound of waves
>
> gently lapping a rocky shore came through.
>
>
>
> After cautiously creeping out, he checked the whole island. No more
>
> than forty meters long and half that wide, its sole feature was the
>
> central rock standing three meters above the water. The only trace
>
> that humans had ever set foot there was the remains of a fire on the
>
> leeward side, perhaps made by some fisherman caught in a storm who
>
> decided any land was better than none. Those ashes were weeks old,
>
> barely more than a stain on the gravel.
>
>
>
> The sun was on the horizon by the time he worked the rowboat through
>
> the low doorway, man-handled it to the shore, and replaced the slabs
>
> to hide the room. Even though the morning was chilly, he decided to
>
> stay dressed as he was. He was already sweating. If he put on his warm
>
> cloak, he'd be reeking by the time he reached the mainland. It would
>
> be more in keeping with his disguise as an itinerant scribe, but he
>
> expected to be absolutely filthy by the end of the day anyway and saw
>
> no reason to hurry the process.
>
>
>
> Jace rowed around the island and started to pull heavily for the long
>
> way to the mainland. The thought occurred to him whether he should
>
> trust such a boat. No piece of it could be more than forty inches
>
> long, the maximum which would fit crosswise in a receiver. Vertical
>
> zig-zags on the side looked as if they were only knife marks since the
>
> grain of the wood seemed continuous down the entire length of the
>
> planks. He knew them to be the joints where waterproof epoxy held
>
> together precision joints of plastic and cellulose composite textured
>
> to look like old oak. It was highly engineered and made of the finest
>
> materials, but it was still a jigsaw puzzle, and he was miles from
>
> land.
>
>
>
> He also thought how backwards the idea was. If they'd used some rods
>
> and locked them together to run from the receiver to the room, they
>
> could have sent a real boat. It was an unexplained feature that a
>
> receiver would shunt the transmission of a metal box too large for it
>
> to the end of an attached rigid iron bar. Besides shipping a complete
>
> boat that way, travelers could afterwards add a digit to the
>
> destination code and be sent to the box instead of the tiny receiver.
>
>
>
> Why would Authority, ever harping on the need to keep societies
>
> unaware of a traveler's presence, prefer a polymer and synthetic
>
> piecework be tied up to local docks rather than let a metal box sit in
>
> a cave which the natives hadn't discovered in the thousand or so years
>
> since the receiver had been installed?
>
>
>
> He knew he'd never know the answer, so he consoled himself with the
>
> fact that his anger over their stupidity had made him row faster and
>
> had kept him from thinking about how slowly the island receded into
>
> the distance.
>
>
>
> End Text.
>
>
>
> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
>
> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
I didn't read it all, but I saw some critiques that seem rather unhelpful. It doesn't matter which dictionary says what in which language. Use the language the character would use and certainly don't fret over spelling at this stage. Minutiae like that can be addressed when you have a story. It's the character's situation and their story, and if you start pandering to and worrying over differences in readers and audiences, you're in their world rather than the world of your character. You're in their world, not the character's world.
If "rowboat" is right for the character, then use it. There are lots of ways of handling reader/audience differences but you can worry about that when you have a story that's engaging and characters that are alive and authentic.
If you're concerned it's infodumpy, then as a general guide, it probably is. Writers often think they need to describe everything in fantastic detail for it to be interesting and exciting, but you don't. I think of writing like Christmas. Presents are their most exciting and attention grabbing when they're still wrapped in shiny foil paper. Don't unwrap all your presents for the reader at once: they'll switch off. You have the whole story to do that.
Study the form of 'story'. It's really worth it.
Gruff
wwww.TheLookingGlassClub.com
> My usual method of writing is to begin with a strange situation. By
>
> the time I have that written, I've figured out the next scene. This
>
> gives me confidence (whether warranted or not) that the story is
>
> progressing along natural lines.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, rewriting my wsip from scratch has opened up all sorts
>
> of concerns I normally don't face.
>
>
>
> One of these is how to open the story.
>
>
>
> Here's my latest idea for the first chapter. It's not exactly a shoot
>
> the sheriff. (It's twice the length that's allowed in the FAQ, but
>
> since there isn't any competition for attention in the group right
>
> now, I hope that can be forgiven. ;) )
>
>
>
> Text:
>
>
>
> Jace's vellum-scraper cut into his hip, and his nose was squashed into
>
> his knee. The receiver was an inch smaller than the one he'd left, and
>
> the scientific principle which magicked people from one universe to
>
> another didn't compress molecules or adjust densities -- it simply
>
> crammed the traveler into the available space.
>
>
>
> He elbowed the latch to open the door. With the pressure released, his
>
> back slid across the receiver's slick porcelain lining, dumping him on
>
> his side, half in, half out, his shoulder hitting the stone floor. The
>
> tunnel was so small he'd have to crawl anyway, but it portended a
>
> problem when he had to squeeze back in for the trip home. He knew
>
> someone would eventually figure out the chronological order in which
>
> the people who invented travel had used porcelain, tin, titanium, and
>
> a dozen other coatings in the receivers. He doubted anyone would ever
>
> learn why they made them so small that travelers had to fold
>
> themselves up like magicians' assistants.
>
>
>
> The blue glow of his travelplate's screen was his only light. He
>
> slipped it out of the receiver's ceiling, moved the symbols
>
> identifying his origin into the destination window so it'd be ready in
>
> case he had to return quickly, and replaced it in its slot. After
>
> closing the door, he started crawling across the rough floor in the
>
> dark.
>
>
>
> After only ten feet, he felt the handle of the fake stone slab
>
> blocking the end of the tunnel. It took two tugs to pull it from its
>
> hole. Only darkness lay beyond. Relieved, he dug a candle and match
>
> from his satchel. The match wasn't suitable for the year 1368, but the
>
> burnt stub was the least of what the natives would find if they
>
> discovered the receiver's hiding place. He'd argued he might as well
>
> carry a lighter, but his handlers at Authority suspected he wanted to
>
> use it during the mission instead of the period-correct flint and
>
> tinder in his kit. Giving him one match made his life easier while
>
> keeping him from contaminating the locals.
>
>
>
> By the light of the candle, he saw the clock left by a previous
>
> traveler. There was an hour's difference between its reading and what
>
> he'd been told it should be. Time not only passed at different rates
>
> in different universes, it sometimes changed speed or went in fits and
>
> starts within one. Jace didn't care about the theories of how or why;
>
> what mattered to him was he'd arrived earlier than expected, so he
>
> wouldn't have to hurry.
>
>
>
> The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
>
> barely tall enough for him to stand upright. After putting the candle
>
>
> The room beyond the hole had been carved out of solid rock, and it was
>
>
> in a recess near the ceiling, he moved the fake stone slab back into
>
> place and smoothed the seams over with his hand. It looked so much
>
> like the surrounding wall that the edges seemed to disappear.
>
>
>
> A rowboat sat in the middle of the floor. He laid his satchel, cloak,
>
> and pouch of scribe's tools in it and shuffled along the narrow space
>
> beside it to reach the front of the room. Two slabs, side by side and
>
> less than three feet tall, were doors, with a narrow piece closing the
>
> gap between them. He moved that slat slowly, looking and listening
>
> for anything out of place. Only pre-dawn light and the sound of waves
>
> gently lapping a rocky shore came through.
>
>
>
> After cautiously creeping out, he checked the whole island. No more
>
> than forty meters long and half that wide, its sole feature was the
>
> central rock standing three meters above the water. The only trace
>
> that humans had ever set foot there was the remains of a fire on the
>
> leeward side, perhaps made by some fisherman caught in a storm who
>
> decided any land was better than none. Those ashes were weeks old,
>
> barely more than a stain on the gravel.
>
>
>
> The sun was on the horizon by the time he worked the rowboat through
>
> the low doorway, man-handled it to the shore, and replaced the slabs
>
> to hide the room. Even though the morning was chilly, he decided to
>
> stay dressed as he was. He was already sweating. If he put on his warm
>
> cloak, he'd be reeking by the time he reached the mainland. It would
>
> be more in keeping with his disguise as an itinerant scribe, but he
>
> expected to be absolutely filthy by the end of the day anyway and saw
>
> no reason to hurry the process.
>
>
>
> Jace rowed around the island and started to pull heavily for the long
>
> way to the mainland. The thought occurred to him whether he should
>
> trust such a boat. No piece of it could be more than forty inches
>
> long, the maximum which would fit crosswise in a receiver. Vertical
>
> zig-zags on the side looked as if they were only knife marks since the
>
> grain of the wood seemed continuous down the entire length of the
>
> planks. He knew them to be the joints where waterproof epoxy held
>
> together precision joints of plastic and cellulose composite textured
>
> to look like old oak. It was highly engineered and made of the finest
>
> materials, but it was still a jigsaw puzzle, and he was miles from
>
> land.
>
>
>
> He also thought how backwards the idea was. If they'd used some rods
>
> and locked them together to run from the receiver to the room, they
>
> could have sent a real boat. It was an unexplained feature that a
>
> receiver would shunt the transmission of a metal box too large for it
>
> to the end of an attached rigid iron bar. Besides shipping a complete
>
> boat that way, travelers could afterwards add a digit to the
>
> destination code and be sent to the box instead of the tiny receiver.
>
>
>
> Why would Authority, ever harping on the need to keep societies
>
> unaware of a traveler's presence, prefer a polymer and synthetic
>
> piecework be tied up to local docks rather than let a metal box sit in
>
> a cave which the natives hadn't discovered in the thousand or so years
>
> since the receiver had been installed?
>
>
>
> He knew he'd never know the answer, so he consoled himself with the
>
> fact that his anger over their stupidity had made him row faster and
>
> had kept him from thinking about how slowly the island receded into
>
> the distance.
>
>
>
> End Text.
>
>
>
> I'm mainly concerned with how much, if at all, it draws a reader in
>
> and how infodumpy it is, but any comments will be appreciated.
I didn't read it all, but I saw some critiques that seem rather unhelpful. It doesn't matter which dictionary says what in which language. Use the language the character would use and certainly don't fret over spelling at this stage. Minutiae like that can be addressed when you have a story. It's the character's situation and their story, and if you start pandering to and worrying over differences in readers and audiences, you're in their world rather than the world of your character. You're in their world, not the character's world.
If "rowboat" is right for the character, then use it. There are lots of ways of handling reader/audience differences but you can worry about that when you have a story that's engaging and characters that are alive and authentic.
If you're concerned it's infodumpy, then as a general guide, it probably is. Writers often think they need to describe everything in fantastic detail for it to be interesting and exciting, but you don't. I think of writing like Christmas. Presents are their most exciting and attention grabbing when they're still wrapped in shiny foil paper. Don't unwrap all your presents for the reader at once: they'll switch off. You have the whole story to do that.
Study the form of 'story'. It's really worth it.
Gruff
wwww.TheLookingGlassClub.com
Kay Shapero
Aug 29, 2012, 10:51:11 PM8/29/12
to
In article <lq4r389ok60143h4c...@4ax.com>,
jbe...@invalid.net.invalid says...
in competition with one Stephen managed to nearly pull the country apart
between them, followed by her son, followed by the guy who signed the
Magna Carta at arrowpoint (and seems to have made sure there will never
be another reigning king of England named John...) All of which appears
to have set the stage for subsequent English history. Whew, what a
mess...
>
> I suspect that I am too, but my family has never been traced back to
> the old country, and there is more than one theory as to which old
> country we haven't been traced back to.
>
My ancestors appear to have been thrown out of some of the finest
countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
--
Kay Shapero
http://www.kayshapero.net
Address munged - to email use kay at the domain of my website, above.
jbe...@invalid.net.invalid says...
>
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:19:21 -0700, Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
> > younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
> > inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
>
> We're in-laws! My spouse is descend from the same bastard.
Snicker! To add to the fun, in my case it goes through the heiress who,
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:19:21 -0700, Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
> > younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
> > inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
>
> We're in-laws! My spouse is descend from the same bastard.
in competition with one Stephen managed to nearly pull the country apart
between them, followed by her son, followed by the guy who signed the
Magna Carta at arrowpoint (and seems to have made sure there will never
be another reigning king of England named John...) All of which appears
to have set the stage for subsequent English history. Whew, what a
mess...
>
> I suspect that I am too, but my family has never been traced back to
> the old country, and there is more than one theory as to which old
> country we haven't been traced back to.
>
countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
--
Kay Shapero
http://www.kayshapero.net
Address munged - to email use kay at the domain of my website, above.
JF
Aug 30, 2012, 5:06:37 AM8/30/12
to
On 30/08/2012 03:51, Kay Shapero wrote:
> My ancestors appear to have been thrown out of some of the finest
> countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
> earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
> asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
> and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
> time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
> again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
> I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
I like a (wo)man that stays put. Be careful: there is a pull of
> My ancestors appear to have been thrown out of some of the finest
> countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
> earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
> asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
> and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
> time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
> again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
> I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
the land, the actual soil and rocks and trees that gets into the
genes and calls, calls from afar even unto the third generation.
Let's get a little sfnal.
As a small child I knew East Anglia, knew the shape it made on
the page, knew the pleasing line that divided that bulge on
England into halves. That's Norfolk, said the little boy to
himself, and that's Suffolk, and he was pleased with the
knowledge. The years went on and we walked down a drive overgrown
with saplings and dock and nettle to a crumbling cottage with
windows gleaming defiantly in the light of the evening sun.
That's it, home. We never went away. We live at the centre of EA.
More years pass and I find my children went to the school their
great great uncle attended, my daughter lives on land a kinsman
once rented at the behest of Elizabeth I, Floods pop up in every
village. The charity of which I am the secretary was set up by
one Mr Firmage, whose family shared a Norfolk village with a
Flood three hundred years ago.
My son lived near Oswestry with Floods all around him, heartland
of the Shropshire branch, now he lives next door to Ewelme where
the Flood who was yeoman of the wardrobe to Anne Boleyn ended up
as under-steward at the Hall. When I phoned my brother while
walking along Offa's Dike and found we we both going to be in
Prstatyn that evening, pure coincidence, I was on the land of
Penllyn, domain of Rhirid the Wolf, Prince of Powys, ancestor of
the Lloyd/Fludd/Floods,
I don't believe it, it's all too synchronous. It began when I
fell out of the tree a few years back. (looks round furtively)
I think this is the afterlife. It's good, it's fun, but it's not
at all what I expected.
JF
Dorothy J Heydt
Aug 30, 2012, 12:05:48 PM8/30/12
to
In article <UcydnZMbSIy9sKLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
every generation has moved from somewhere in the US to somewhere
else in the US, and you don't have the slightest idea which
rocks and soil might be laying claim to you. Some of my ancestors
came from England, some from Wales, some from Germany; some of
them (but I don't know which) were already on the left side of
the pond before the Revolutionary War. I like reading about
England, but I don't feel any tie to any particular part of it.
Mind you, there are Americans who do get interested in their
genealogy, and try to figure out where their ancestors came from,
and even make trips to visit those places if they can find them.
And in between trips, bore the hell out of the rest of us with
(a) their ancestry (b) genealogy in general, with an invitation
to participate and find out who *our* ancestors came from. I
remember one woman whom I tried to shake off for ten or fifteen
minutes without being rude. There are only so many ways of
saying, "That's lovely for you, but I'M NOT INTERESTED."
Lovely, as always. I'm glad you have roots in the soil and can
enjoy them. But I don't feel a lack.
JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>On 30/08/2012 03:51, Kay Shapero wrote:
>
>> My ancestors appear to have been thrown out of some of the finest
>> countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
>> earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
>> asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
>> and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
>> time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
>> again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
>> I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
>
>I like a (wo)man that stays put. Be careful: there is a pull of
>the land, the actual soil and rocks and trees that gets into the
>genes and calls, calls from afar even unto the third generation.
Except when you've been in the US for a few generations, and
>On 30/08/2012 03:51, Kay Shapero wrote:
>
>> My ancestors appear to have been thrown out of some of the finest
>> countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
>> earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
>> asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
>> and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
>> time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
>> again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
>> I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
>
>I like a (wo)man that stays put. Be careful: there is a pull of
>the land, the actual soil and rocks and trees that gets into the
>genes and calls, calls from afar even unto the third generation.
every generation has moved from somewhere in the US to somewhere
else in the US, and you don't have the slightest idea which
rocks and soil might be laying claim to you. Some of my ancestors
came from England, some from Wales, some from Germany; some of
them (but I don't know which) were already on the left side of
the pond before the Revolutionary War. I like reading about
England, but I don't feel any tie to any particular part of it.
Mind you, there are Americans who do get interested in their
genealogy, and try to figure out where their ancestors came from,
and even make trips to visit those places if they can find them.
And in between trips, bore the hell out of the rest of us with
(a) their ancestry (b) genealogy in general, with an invitation
to participate and find out who *our* ancestors came from. I
remember one woman whom I tried to shake off for ten or fifteen
minutes without being rude. There are only so many ways of
saying, "That's lovely for you, but I'M NOT INTERESTED."
enjoy them. But I don't feel a lack.
David Friedman
Aug 30, 2012, 12:51:03 PM8/30/12
to
In article <M9Ksp...@kithrup.com>,
New Hampshire and Vermont--having nothing to do with my ancestry. It's
where I spent my summers growing up.
On the other hand, when I visited Israel recently, I had a distinct
feeling of "these are my kin" talking to a couple of strangers--one, I
think, where I showed my passport, and one the information person in the
airport. Not geographical but cultural.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
> Except when you've been in the US for a few generations, and
> every generation has moved from somewhere in the US to somewhere
> else in the US, and you don't have the slightest idea which
> rocks and soil might be laying claim to you.
I think the only rocks and soil that come close to that for me are in
> every generation has moved from somewhere in the US to somewhere
> else in the US, and you don't have the slightest idea which
> rocks and soil might be laying claim to you.
New Hampshire and Vermont--having nothing to do with my ancestry. It's
where I spent my summers growing up.
On the other hand, when I visited Israel recently, I had a distinct
feeling of "these are my kin" talking to a couple of strangers--one, I
think, where I showed my passport, and one the information person in the
airport. Not geographical but cultural.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Jacey Bedford
Aug 30, 2012, 1:49:22 PM8/30/12
to
In message <lq4r389ok60143h4c...@4ax.com>, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes
trace any ancestors back unless they were nobility and recorded in court
roles. There's hardly any chance if you're a peasant or even middle
class/merchant/artisan/administrative class. Before Queen Elizabeth made
the keeping of church records an obligation, most of the underclass had
no records at all.
Though I gather we are all supposed to be descended from Charlemagne.
What a busy boy he was.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes
>On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:19:21 -0700, Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
>> younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
>> inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
>
>We're in-laws! My spouse is descend from the same bastard.
>
>I suspect that I am too, but my family has never been traced back to
>the old country, and there is more than one theory as to which old
>country we haven't been traced back to.
Once you get back to mid to late 1500s it's enormously difficult to
>wrote:
>
>> Y' think that's bad - one of mine took a batch of fellow bastards,
>> younger sons and whatnot across the channel and stole England from its
>> inhabitants. Talk about grand larceny...
>
>We're in-laws! My spouse is descend from the same bastard.
>
>I suspect that I am too, but my family has never been traced back to
>the old country, and there is more than one theory as to which old
>country we haven't been traced back to.
trace any ancestors back unless they were nobility and recorded in court
roles. There's hardly any chance if you're a peasant or even middle
class/merchant/artisan/administrative class. Before Queen Elizabeth made
the keeping of church records an obligation, most of the underclass had
no records at all.
Though I gather we are all supposed to be descended from Charlemagne.
What a busy boy he was.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Dorothy J Heydt
Aug 30, 2012, 3:24:54 PM8/30/12
to
In article <DcnJXf1i...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
He had only one legitimate son who survived him -- a great many
bastards and grand-bastards, though, because he wouldn't let his
daughters get married and leave home, but he allowed them to take
lovers and have bastards.
He had three legitimate grandsons, however, and that's why we now
have Germany, France, and Italy.
bastards and grand-bastards, though, because he wouldn't let his
daughters get married and leave home, but he allowed them to take
lovers and have bastards.
He had three legitimate grandsons, however, and that's why we now
have Germany, France, and Italy.
Bill Swears
Aug 31, 2012, 8:42:24 PM8/31/12
to
On 8/25/2012 7:52 PM, Suzanne wrote:
> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
>> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>>
>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
>> And don't even get me started on there, they're& their.
>
> No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the same
> word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance) while
> there, they're, and their are three entirely different words, with
> different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>
> -Suzanne
In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
>> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>>
>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
>> And don't even get me started on there, they're& their.
>
> No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the same
> word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance) while
> there, they're, and their are three entirely different words, with
> different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>
> -Suzanne
In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
Bill Swears
Aug 31, 2012, 10:46:17 PM8/31/12
to
The two lines from original text sound a lot like one of those 1980s
text based computer games. "you are walking through the forest. There
is a rock in the middle of the path." Probably an artifact of not
having more story to accompany them. I wouldn't give "rowboat" a second
look. Rowing boat, on the other hand, would cause me to read it as "not
an American" author or publisher.
Kay Shapero
Sep 1, 2012, 2:12:17 AM9/1/12
to
In article <UcydnZMbSIy9sKLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk says...
generations they'd better have space habitats worked out because my kin
are likely to want to move to L5 or the like. Great view, and when you
need more living space you just build it (ok, and up the life support
and stuff).
> walking along Offa's Dike and found we we both going to be in
> Prstatyn that evening, pure coincidence, I was on the land of
> Penllyn, domain of Rhirid the Wolf, Prince of Powys, ancestor of
> the Lloyd/Fludd/Floods,
>
> I don't believe it, it's all too synchronous. It began when I
> fell out of the tree a few years back. (looks round furtively)
>
> I think this is the afterlife. It's good, it's fun, but it's not
> at all what I expected.
>
Grin.
jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk says...
>
> On 30/08/2012 03:51, Kay Shapero wrote:
>
> > My ancestors appear to have been thrown out of some of the finest
> > countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
> > earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
> > asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
> > and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
> > time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
> > again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
> > I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
>
> I like a (wo)man that stays put. Be careful: there is a pull of
> the land, the actual soil and rocks and trees that gets into the
> genes and calls, calls from afar even unto the third generation.
>
That's me all over? :) I do suspect that after the next few
> On 30/08/2012 03:51, Kay Shapero wrote:
>
> > My ancestors appear to have been thrown out of some of the finest
> > countries in Europe (the ones who didn't row or walk over from Asia much
> > earlier anyway). I recall sticking pins all over the map when a teacher
> > asked where our families had come from. They then collected in Kentucky
> > and environs for a few generations (everybody was already here by the
> > time of the revolution) and as of my parents' generation spread out
> > again invading the rest of the country. And possibly Canada iirc. Me,
> > I like it here in Los Angeles, Ca and am Staying Put. ;)
>
> I like a (wo)man that stays put. Be careful: there is a pull of
> the land, the actual soil and rocks and trees that gets into the
> genes and calls, calls from afar even unto the third generation.
>
generations they'd better have space habitats worked out because my kin
are likely to want to move to L5 or the like. Great view, and when you
need more living space you just build it (ok, and up the life support
and stuff).
> walking along Offa's Dike and found we we both going to be in
> Prstatyn that evening, pure coincidence, I was on the land of
> Penllyn, domain of Rhirid the Wolf, Prince of Powys, ancestor of
> the Lloyd/Fludd/Floods,
>
> I don't believe it, it's all too synchronous. It began when I
> fell out of the tree a few years back. (looks round furtively)
>
> I think this is the afterlife. It's good, it's fun, but it's not
> at all what I expected.
>
John F. Eldredge
Sep 1, 2012, 10:14:43 AM9/1/12
to
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 16:42:24 -0800, Bill Swears wrote:
> On 8/25/2012 7:52 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> A meter is a tool used to measure things. A metre is a distance, also
>>> used to measure things. There's a great and simple way to remember
>>> which to use.
>>>
>>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged. And don't
>>> even get me started on there, they're& their.
>>
>> No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the
>> same word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance)
>> while there, they're, and their are three entirely different words,
>> with different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>>
>> -Suzanne
>
> In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
> technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
>
> Bill
Metre is the British spelling, meter the American spelling. One of many
> On 8/25/2012 7:52 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> A meter is a tool used to measure things. A metre is a distance, also
>>> used to measure things. There's a great and simple way to remember
>>> which to use.
>>>
>>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged. And don't
>>> even get me started on there, they're& their.
>>
>> No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the
>> same word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance)
>> while there, they're, and their are three entirely different words,
>> with different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>>
>> -Suzanne
>
> In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
> technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
>
> Bill
cases where the two dialects diverged, like colour and color.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Raymond Daley
Sep 1, 2012, 11:39:34 PM9/1/12
to
"Bill Swears" wrote
Or because you live in a country where they can't even spell a simple word
like colour correctly.
They might even learn how to pronounce Chassis and Aluminium correctly one
day too.
America, speaks English (just about) but doesn't spell it.
What's that expression? My way or the highway.
> On 8/25/2012 7:52 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>>> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
>>> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
>>> And don't even get me started on there, they're & their.
>> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>>> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
>>> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
>> No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the same
>> word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance) while
>> there, they're, and their are three entirely different words, with
>> different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>> -Suzanne
> In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
> technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
> Bill
Possibly because America isn't metric?
>> word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance) while
>> there, they're, and their are three entirely different words, with
>> different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>> -Suzanne
> In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
> technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
> Bill
Or because you live in a country where they can't even spell a simple word
like colour correctly.
They might even learn how to pronounce Chassis and Aluminium correctly one
day too.
America, speaks English (just about) but doesn't spell it.
What's that expression? My way or the highway.
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 2, 2012, 12:11:58 AM9/2/12
to
In article <tyA0s.143000$0b5....@fx28.am4>,
My goodness. And I thought Americans were provincial.
*plonk*
*plonk*
JF
Sep 2, 2012, 1:43:31 AM9/2/12
to
On 02/09/2012 05:11, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> My goodness. And I thought Americans were provincial.
No provincial, Dorothy, but susceptible to trolling.
>
> My goodness. And I thought Americans were provincial.
> *plonk*
Not worth the effort.
There is a thread of worth in this. When selling shorts to the US
it would be useful if a WP had a 'convert to US spelling' option,
just to be polite. But perhaps not. While writing 'manoeuvre'
would be technically wrong in a US publication, it might lend an
exotic air to my stuff which could tip the balance.
JF
(Exotic! Coney Weston! Lah, sir, you be mocking a country lad!
Speaking of which, we had a Steggles family meeting last week,
sandwiches in the village hall, dedication of a memorial to a
great grandmother in the churchyard, president of the USA
Cadillac Club/Society/WHY in attendance. In a graveyard that
holds ancestors of Bill Gates and George BUsh, they prayed for a
simple country woman whose passing had been unmarked. Mrs Flood
and I served tea.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 2, 2012, 10:04:19 AM9/2/12
to
In article <8rCdnQsYFIuRb9_N...@brightview.co.uk>,
to American for a century or two -- and not infrequently,
changing book titles while they're at it.
On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong. It makes me wince
every time I see some NPC use "gotten," which as far as I know is
*never* used in British English? But at least they try.
Sutton Hoo. If that isn't exotic, I don't know what is.
>Speaking of which, we had a Steggles family meeting last week,
>sandwiches in the village hall, dedication of a memorial to a
>great grandmother in the churchyard, president of the USA
>Cadillac Club/Society/WHY in attendance. In a graveyard that
>holds ancestors of Bill Gates and George Bush, they prayed for a
JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>On 02/09/2012 05:11, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> My goodness. And I thought Americans were provincial.
>
>No provincial, Dorothy, but susceptible to trolling.
>
>> *plonk*
>
>Not worth the effort.
>
>There is a thread of worth in this. When selling shorts to the US
>it would be useful if a WP had a 'convert to US spelling' option,
>just to be polite. But perhaps not. While writing 'manoeuvre'
>would be technically wrong in a US publication, it might lend an
>exotic air to my stuff which could tip the balance.
American editors have been routinely altering British spellings
>On 02/09/2012 05:11, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> My goodness. And I thought Americans were provincial.
>
>No provincial, Dorothy, but susceptible to trolling.
>
>> *plonk*
>
>Not worth the effort.
>
>There is a thread of worth in this. When selling shorts to the US
>it would be useful if a WP had a 'convert to US spelling' option,
>just to be polite. But perhaps not. While writing 'manoeuvre'
>would be technically wrong in a US publication, it might lend an
>exotic air to my stuff which could tip the balance.
to American for a century or two -- and not infrequently,
changing book titles while they're at it.
On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong. It makes me wince
every time I see some NPC use "gotten," which as far as I know is
*never* used in British English? But at least they try.
>JF
>(Exotic! Coney Weston! Lah, sir, you be mocking a country lad!
If I can trust Google Maps, you live within driving distance of
>(Exotic! Coney Weston! Lah, sir, you be mocking a country lad!
Sutton Hoo. If that isn't exotic, I don't know what is.
>Speaking of which, we had a Steggles family meeting last week,
>sandwiches in the village hall, dedication of a memorial to a
>great grandmother in the churchyard, president of the USA
>Cadillac Club/Society/WHY in attendance. In a graveyard that
>simple country woman whose passing had been unmarked. Mrs Flood
>and I served tea.)
Awwww.
>and I served tea.)
John W Kennedy
Sep 2, 2012, 10:56:24 AM9/2/12
to
"Raymond Daley" <raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Bill Swears" wrote
>> On 8/25/2012 7:52 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>>>> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>>>> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
>>>> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>>>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
>>>> And don't even get me started on there, they're & their.
>>> No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the same
>>> word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance) while
>>> there, they're, and their are three entirely different words, with
>>> different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>>> -Suzanne
>> In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
>> technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
>> Bill
>
> Possibly because America isn't metric?
America was one of the original signatories of the Treaty of the Meter
> "Bill Swears" wrote
>> On 8/25/2012 7:52 PM, Suzanne wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2012 10:47 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
>>>> A meter is a tool used to measure things.
>>>> A metre is a distance, also used to measure things.
>>>> There's a great and simple way to remember which to use.
>>>> It's like using your or you're the same way interchanged.
>>>> And don't even get me started on there, they're & their.
>>> No, it's not. Meter and metre are both *accepted* variations of the same
>>> word, with the same meaning and usage (when referencing distance) while
>>> there, they're, and their are three entirely different words, with
>>> different meanings and usage. Your analogy is bad.
>>> -Suzanne
>> In the U.S., I've never seen the distance spelled as metre. Not even in
>> technical or scientific articles. Always meter.
>> Bill
>
> Possibly because America isn't metric?
(Britain was not), and the Metric System is the norm in American military,
scientific, and medical use (the latter two for longer than I can
remember). The US Customary Units have been de-jure defined in Metric terms
since 1893, which the Imperial System did not accomplish until 1963. And I
know just as well as you about "Metric martyrs" and such rot. Britain's
de-facto commitment to Metrication is no greater than America's.
> Or because you live in a country where they can't even spell a simple word
> like colour correctly.
land of snails, syllable-counting, and surrender, extending even to their
orthography -- or must I render it "orthographie"? Pfaugh!
> They might even learn how to pronounce Chassis
> and Aluminium correctly one
> day too.
make up his mind among "alumium", "aluminum", and "aluminium".
John W Kennedy
Sep 2, 2012, 11:23:40 AM9/2/12
to
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <8rCdnQsYFIuRb9_N...@brightview.co.uk>,
> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 02/09/2012 05:11, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> My goodness. And I thought Americans were provincial.
>>
>> No provincial, Dorothy, but susceptible to trolling.
>>
>>> *plonk*
>>
>> Not worth the effort.
>>
>> There is a thread of worth in this. When selling shorts to the US
>> it would be useful if a WP had a 'convert to US spelling' option,
>> just to be polite. But perhaps not. While writing 'manoeuvre'
>> would be technically wrong in a US publication, it might lend an
>> exotic air to my stuff which could tip the balance.
>
> American editors have been routinely altering British spellings
> to American for a century or two -- and not infrequently,
> changing book titles while they're at it.
>
> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong. It makes me wince
> every time I see some NPC use "gotten," which as far as I know is
> *never* used in British English? But at least they try.
As is so often the case, "gotten" is a perfectly good English word that
> In article <8rCdnQsYFIuRb9_N...@brightview.co.uk>,
> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 02/09/2012 05:11, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> My goodness. And I thought Americans were provincial.
>>
>> No provincial, Dorothy, but susceptible to trolling.
>>
>>> *plonk*
>>
>> Not worth the effort.
>>
>> There is a thread of worth in this. When selling shorts to the US
>> it would be useful if a WP had a 'convert to US spelling' option,
>> just to be polite. But perhaps not. While writing 'manoeuvre'
>> would be technically wrong in a US publication, it might lend an
>> exotic air to my stuff which could tip the balance.
>
> American editors have been routinely altering British spellings
> to American for a century or two -- and not infrequently,
> changing book titles while they're at it.
>
> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong. It makes me wince
> every time I see some NPC use "gotten," which as far as I know is
> *never* used in British English? But at least they try.
fell out of fashion only recently in England.
John W Kennedy
Sep 2, 2012, 11:23:40 AM9/2/12
to
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
critter an oddity is that he is pro-Metric. British jingoes are usually
"when you pry my yardstick and my pint glass from my cold, dead fingers"
sorts.
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 2, 2012, 11:27:55 AM9/2/12
to
In article <506997353368291317.2598...@news.optonline.net>,
Yes, but is not used now, right? I base my opinion that when
British writers try to write dialog for visiting Americans, they
seem to think, "Americans use 'gotten' everywhere we use 'got',"
which is NOT true.
British writers try to write dialog for visiting Americans, they
seem to think, "Americans use 'gotten' everywhere we use 'got',"
which is NOT true.
John W Kennedy
Sep 2, 2012, 12:07:20 PM9/2/12
to
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <506997353368291317.2598...@news.optonline.net>,
> John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.neg> wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> American editors have been routinely altering British spellings
>>> to American for a century or two -- and not infrequently,
>>> changing book titles while they're at it.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
>>> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
>>> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
>>> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong. It makes me wince
>>> every time I see some NPC use "gotten," which as far as I know is
>>> *never* used in British English? But at least they try.
>>
>> As is so often the case, "gotten" is a perfectly good English word that
>> fell out of fashion only recently in England.
>
> Yes, but is not used now, right? I base my opinion that when
> British writers try to write dialog for visiting Americans, they
> seem to think, "Americans use 'gotten' everywhere we use 'got',"
> which is NOT true.
Yes, that is so. The relationship is a complex one, and relates to the
> In article <506997353368291317.2598...@news.optonline.net>,
> John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.neg> wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> American editors have been routinely altering British spellings
>>> to American for a century or two -- and not infrequently,
>>> changing book titles while they're at it.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
>>> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
>>> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
>>> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong. It makes me wince
>>> every time I see some NPC use "gotten," which as far as I know is
>>> *never* used in British English? But at least they try.
>>
>> As is so often the case, "gotten" is a perfectly good English word that
>> fell out of fashion only recently in England.
>
> Yes, but is not used now, right? I base my opinion that when
> British writers try to write dialog for visiting Americans, they
> seem to think, "Americans use 'gotten' everywhere we use 'got',"
> which is NOT true.
problem distinguishing between "I have got" meaning "I have" and meaning "I
have, at some point or points in the past, obtained;" the old British
solution was never to use "I have got" to mean "I have", but, partly under
American influence, it has collapsed (C S Lewis mentions it somewhere,
blaming it on America, but the old rule was always unstable -- "I've got a
lovely bunch of coconuts"); the American solution was to revive the old
firm "gotten" for the meaning "obtained", and if it were not for a
self-conscious prejudice against "Americanisms" as such, the British could
use it, too.
(The problem has deeper roots, of course, in the use of "have" both to mean
"possess" and to indicate the so-called perfect tense.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 2, 2012, 12:17:24 PM9/2/12
to
In article <325520849368293411.4949...@news.optonline.net>,
Not only "obtained", but "become." "I've gotten used to this
over the years."
>(The problem has deeper roots, of course, in the use of "have" both to mean
>"possess" and to indicate the so-called perfect tense.)
Yes, but that happened to an awful lot of European languages
sometime after the fall of Rome. French _j'ai vu_, Spanish _he
visto_, invented after Latin _vidi_ dropped out. Note that the
Spanish verb _haber_ is no longer used to mean "possess" at all;
for that meaning it's been replaced by _tener_ (Latin _tenere_
"to hold:.) And the Latin future tense dropped out too, replaced
by some form of _habere_ and the infinitive. In Renaissance
Spanish you can see the elements still separated:
Guardame las vacas, Keep the cows for me,
Gil, y besarte he; Gil, and I'll kiss you;
Si no, besame tu a mi If not, you kiss me
Y yo te las guardare'. And I'll keep the cows for you.
_Besarte he_, still separated, lit. "I have to kiss you", but
_guardare'_, already fused, "I shall keep." In the same text,
indicating that both forms were still in use, one coming one
going, and which you used depended on things like rhyme and
meter.
over the years."
>(The problem has deeper roots, of course, in the use of "have" both to mean
>"possess" and to indicate the so-called perfect tense.)
sometime after the fall of Rome. French _j'ai vu_, Spanish _he
visto_, invented after Latin _vidi_ dropped out. Note that the
Spanish verb _haber_ is no longer used to mean "possess" at all;
for that meaning it's been replaced by _tener_ (Latin _tenere_
"to hold:.) And the Latin future tense dropped out too, replaced
by some form of _habere_ and the infinitive. In Renaissance
Spanish you can see the elements still separated:
Guardame las vacas, Keep the cows for me,
Gil, y besarte he; Gil, and I'll kiss you;
Si no, besame tu a mi If not, you kiss me
Y yo te las guardare'. And I'll keep the cows for you.
_Besarte he_, still separated, lit. "I have to kiss you", but
_guardare'_, already fused, "I shall keep." In the same text,
indicating that both forms were still in use, one coming one
going, and which you used depended on things like rhyme and
meter.
JF
Sep 2, 2012, 2:51:29 PM9/2/12
to
On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>> (Exotic! Coney Weston! Lah, sir, you be mocking a country lad!
> If I can trust Google Maps, you live within driving distance of
> Sutton Hoo. If that isn't exotic, I don't know what is.
loan from the BM. Very exciting. Not the original helmet but the
replica. It made me realise what the king would have looked like
when fully accoutred -- a creature beamed down, something
unhuman, terrifying.
More exotic -- or at least engaging, moving, evocative -- is the
little chapel at Cockley Cley, built by Raedwald or one of his
sons (perhaps). It is more understandable, so peaceful I always
want just to sit and listen.
JF
(Engagement, the secret of writing according to David Gemmell.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 2, 2012, 4:22:37 PM9/2/12
to
In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97N...@brightview.co.uk>,
Though the first edition of _The Hobbit_ did have tomatoes in it;
changed to pickles, I think, for the revised edition.
As to the field of corn, as in maize, that was what was growing
in the field in New Zealand at the time they filmed it -- and
Peter Jackson, may his bones burn green, didn't care.
JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
>> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
>> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
>> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
>The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
Oh, don't talk to me about the film.
>On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
>> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
>> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
>> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
>The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
Though the first edition of _The Hobbit_ did have tomatoes in it;
changed to pickles, I think, for the revised edition.
As to the field of corn, as in maize, that was what was growing
in the field in New Zealand at the time they filmed it -- and
Peter Jackson, may his bones burn green, didn't care.
David Friedman
Sep 2, 2012, 5:18:39 PM9/2/12
to
> On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> > Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> > spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> > Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
The book had tobacco and potatoes, which equally rattled the doors of
>
> > On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> > Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> > spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> > Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
disbelief.
...
Jymesion
Sep 2, 2012, 8:49:08 PM9/2/12
to
On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:18:39 -0700, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97N...@brightview.co.uk>,
> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>The book had tobacco and potatoes, which equally rattled the doors of
>disbelief.
Since he didn't explicitly say it was England in a past age, tobacco
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97N...@brightview.co.uk>,
> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>The book had tobacco and potatoes, which equally rattled the doors of
>disbelief.
and potatoes are easy for me to accept (it could have been in South
America, with directions and other referents 'translated' by an
English author).
Corn and tomatoes, no -- the most common and useful forms of those are
far too modern.
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 2, 2012, 8:00:59 PM9/2/12
to
In article <98v748lff6u30dnua...@4ax.com>,
Numenor,* and that it was grown in Gondor, where it was called
"sweet galenas" and esteemed for the fragrance of its flowers.
Only the Hobbits had the idea of putting it in pipes.
In absence of any other information, I'm willing to assume
"taters" followed the same path.
_____
*Whither it was presumably brought by the Elves.
Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:18:39 -0700, David Friedman
><dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97N...@brightview.co.uk>,
>> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>>> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>>The book had tobacco and potatoes, which equally rattled the doors of
>>disbelief.
>
>Since he didn't explicitly say it was England in a past age, tobacco
>and potatoes are easy for me to accept (it could have been in South
>America, with directions and other referents 'translated' by an
>English author).
Of pipeweed, Tolkien says specifically that it was brought from
>On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:18:39 -0700, David Friedman
><dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97N...@brightview.co.uk>,
>> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
>>> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>>The book had tobacco and potatoes, which equally rattled the doors of
>>disbelief.
>
>Since he didn't explicitly say it was England in a past age, tobacco
>and potatoes are easy for me to accept (it could have been in South
>America, with directions and other referents 'translated' by an
>English author).
Numenor,* and that it was grown in Gondor, where it was called
"sweet galenas" and esteemed for the fragrance of its flowers.
Only the Hobbits had the idea of putting it in pipes.
In absence of any other information, I'm willing to assume
"taters" followed the same path.
_____
*Whither it was presumably brought by the Elves.
David Friedman
Sep 2, 2012, 8:36:38 PM9/2/12
to
In article <M9qyp...@kithrup.com>,
World.
> In article <98v748lff6u30dnua...@4ax.com>,
> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> >On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:18:39 -0700, David Friedman
> ><dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >
> >>In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97N...@brightview.co.uk>,
> >> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
> >>The book had tobacco and potatoes, which equally rattled the doors of
> >>disbelief.
> >
> >Since he didn't explicitly say it was England in a past age, tobacco
> >and potatoes are easy for me to accept (it could have been in South
> >America, with directions and other referents 'translated' by an
> >English author).
>
> Of pipeweed, Tolkien says specifically that it was brought from
> Numenor,* and that it was grown in Gondor, where it was called
> "sweet galenas" and esteemed for the fragrance of its flowers.
> Only the Hobbits had the idea of putting it in pipes.
>
> In absence of any other information, I'm willing to assume
> "taters" followed the same path.
He makes it explicit that the setting is in the Old World not the New
> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> >On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:18:39 -0700, David Friedman
> ><dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >
> >>In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97N...@brightview.co.uk>,
> >> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
> >>The book had tobacco and potatoes, which equally rattled the doors of
> >>disbelief.
> >
> >Since he didn't explicitly say it was England in a past age, tobacco
> >and potatoes are easy for me to accept (it could have been in South
> >America, with directions and other referents 'translated' by an
> >English author).
>
> Of pipeweed, Tolkien says specifically that it was brought from
> Numenor,* and that it was grown in Gondor, where it was called
> "sweet galenas" and esteemed for the fragrance of its flowers.
> Only the Hobbits had the idea of putting it in pipes.
>
> In absence of any other information, I'm willing to assume
> "taters" followed the same path.
World.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Sep 2, 2012, 8:46:58 PM9/2/12
to
On 9/2/12 2:51 PM, JF wrote:> On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
>> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
>> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
>> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
Hardly. Since potatoes and tobacco (Pipe-weed, described by Tolkien as
>
>> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
>> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
>> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
>> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
> The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
a variety of Nicotiana), obviously there's no reason to assume other
new-world plants wouldn't be cultivated by the Hobbits and others in
Middle-Earth.
>
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Sep 2, 2012, 8:51:00 PM9/2/12
to
On 9/2/12 8:46 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 9/2/12 2:51 PM, JF wrote:> On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >
> >> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> >> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> >> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> >> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
> >
> > The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>
> Hardly. Since potatoes and tobacco (Pipe-weed, described by Tolkien
> as a variety of Nicotiana),
Add: "... exist in the original novels..."
> On 9/2/12 2:51 PM, JF wrote:> On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >
> >> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> >> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> >> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> >> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
> >
> > The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>
> Hardly. Since potatoes and tobacco (Pipe-weed, described by Tolkien
> as a variety of Nicotiana),
Jacey Bedford
Sep 3, 2012, 10:15:51 AM9/3/12
to
In message <M9q73...@kithrup.com>, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
Yorkshire), but in RP it would be wrong wrong wrong.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
> It makes me wince every time I see some NPC use "gotten," which as far
>as I know is *never* used in British English?
Correct, 'gotten' has survived in some dialect forms (as got'n in
>as I know is *never* used in British English?
Yorkshire), but in RP it would be wrong wrong wrong.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Jacey Bedford
Sep 3, 2012, 10:17:02 AM9/3/12
to
In message
<506997353368291317.2598...@news.optonline.net>,
John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.neg> writes
It depends what you mean by recent. A couple of centuries maybe?
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<506997353368291317.2598...@news.optonline.net>,
John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.neg> writes
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
Jacey Bedford
Sep 3, 2012, 10:23:36 AM9/3/12
to
In message
<325520849368293411.4949...@news.optonline.net>,
John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.neg> writes
As a Brit I would read: 'I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts,' as I
possess a lovely much of coconuts, whereas, "I've gotten a lovely bunch
of coconuts," would mean I have actively acquired a lovely bunch of
coconuts, and though not explicit would probably imply that the action
was fairly recent.
Right?
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
<325520849368293411.4949...@news.optonline.net>,
John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.neg> writes
possess a lovely much of coconuts, whereas, "I've gotten a lovely bunch
of coconuts," would mean I have actively acquired a lovely bunch of
coconuts, and though not explicit would probably imply that the action
was fairly recent.
Right?
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
John F. Eldredge
Sep 3, 2012, 10:35:20 AM9/3/12
to
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 3, 2012, 11:10:48 AM9/3/12
to
In article <SJ7dS0mo...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
Right. "I've gotten a lovely bunch of coconuts" means they just
arrived on my doorstep.
Though you could modify it to show that someone has been
expanding his coconut collection over time, "Over the past
several years, I've gotten a lovely bunch of coconuts and some
plush Kiwi birds, too."
arrived on my doorstep.
Though you could modify it to show that someone has been
expanding his coconut collection over time, "Over the past
several years, I've gotten a lovely bunch of coconuts and some
plush Kiwi birds, too."
John W Kennedy
Sep 3, 2012, 12:31:52 PM9/3/12
to
ignoring the supposed official rule that it should be "I have", and
that "I've got" should be used only in the sense of American "I've
gotten". ("I have" is unquestionably the meaning in the song, as the
singer is supposed to be the proprietor of a coconut-shy.)
--
John W Kennedy
"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne
of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts"
-- J. Michael Straczynski. "Babylon 5", "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 3, 2012, 1:05:27 PM9/3/12
to
In article <5044db78$0$9839$607e...@cv.net>,
Okay, if you say so; I've certainly read umpteen examples of
fictional Brits using "I've got" in the sense of "I have." Note
that there *used*, at least, to be such a rule in American
English too; Munro Leaf* wrote a small book on correct usage for
children back in the thirties (I think), and there's a diagram of
"I have a ball" drawn as four happy flowers, and "I have got a
ball" as four miserable flowers invaded by a nasty weed.
I took a Spanish course years&years ago in which the professor (a
native speaker of Spanish Spanish) frequentlyremarked on the
then-current argument between the _loistas_ and the _leistas_,
who disapproved of, and accepted, respectively, the incoming use
of the masculine indirect pronoun, _le_, where purists would use
the direct pronoun, _lo_. I think the professor sided with the
_leistas,_ because he used to rattle off "_?Quien hace la lengua?
la gente. La gente dice le; le es correcto._" "Who makes the
language? the people. The people say _le_; _le_ is correct."
I have a feeling that "have got" has been made correct by the
American people; I don't know about the British.
("I have" is unquestionably the meaning in the song, as the
>singer is supposed to be the proprietor of a coconut-shy.)
As explained in the verse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1AE9mwEwM4
fictional Brits using "I've got" in the sense of "I have." Note
that there *used*, at least, to be such a rule in American
English too; Munro Leaf* wrote a small book on correct usage for
children back in the thirties (I think), and there's a diagram of
"I have a ball" drawn as four happy flowers, and "I have got a
ball" as four miserable flowers invaded by a nasty weed.
I took a Spanish course years&years ago in which the professor (a
native speaker of Spanish Spanish) frequentlyremarked on the
then-current argument between the _loistas_ and the _leistas_,
who disapproved of, and accepted, respectively, the incoming use
of the masculine indirect pronoun, _le_, where purists would use
the direct pronoun, _lo_. I think the professor sided with the
_leistas,_ because he used to rattle off "_?Quien hace la lengua?
la gente. La gente dice le; le es correcto._" "Who makes the
language? the people. The people say _le_; _le_ is correct."
I have a feeling that "have got" has been made correct by the
American people; I don't know about the British.
("I have" is unquestionably the meaning in the song, as the
>singer is supposed to be the proprietor of a coconut-shy.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1AE9mwEwM4
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 3, 2012, 2:12:48 PM9/3/12
to
In article <M9sA5...@kithrup.com>,
Ooops, I neglected to put in the footnote about Munro Leaf.
Author mostly of children's books, probably best-remembered now
for _Ferdinand the Bull_, who didn't want to fight in the
corrida, just stay home grazing under the cork trees and smelling
the flowers.
Ooops, I neglected to put in the footnote about Munro Leaf.
>
>Okay, if you say so; I've certainly read umpteen examples of
>fictional Brits using "I've got" in the sense of "I have." Note
>that there *used*, at least, to be such a rule in American
>English too; Munro Leaf* wrote a small book on correct usage for
>children back in the thirties (I think), and there's a diagram of
>"I have a ball" drawn as four happy flowers, and "I have got a
>ball" as four miserable flowers invaded by a nasty weed.
_____
>Okay, if you say so; I've certainly read umpteen examples of
>fictional Brits using "I've got" in the sense of "I have." Note
>that there *used*, at least, to be such a rule in American
>English too; Munro Leaf* wrote a small book on correct usage for
>children back in the thirties (I think), and there's a diagram of
>"I have a ball" drawn as four happy flowers, and "I have got a
>ball" as four miserable flowers invaded by a nasty weed.
Author mostly of children's books, probably best-remembered now
for _Ferdinand the Bull_, who didn't want to fight in the
corrida, just stay home grazing under the cork trees and smelling
the flowers.
Will in New Haven
Sep 3, 2012, 4:13:39 PM9/3/12
to
On Sep 2, 4:30 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97NnZ2dnUVZ7tCdn...@brightview.co.uk>,
Tolkien isn't around to ask. That tobacco was grown seems clear, so
the whole Old World/New World division is broken. Tolkien is clear
that pipeweed is tobacco.
--
Will in New Haven
> In article <YuqdnddYrpchN97NnZ2dnUVZ7tCdn...@brightview.co.uk>,
>
> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> >> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> >> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> >> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> >> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
> >The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>
> Oh, don't talk to me about the film.
>
> Though the first edition of _The Hobbit_ did have tomatoes in it;
> changed to pickles, I think, for the revised edition.
>
> As to the field of corn, as in maize, that was what was growing
> in the field in New Zealand at the time they filmed it -- and
> Peter Jackson, may his bones burn green, didn't care.
Neither you nor Jackson knows what was grown in the Third Age and
> JF <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 02/09/2012 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> >> On the other hand, the producers of _The Lord of the Rings
> >> Online_ decided that all the text in the game should have British
> >> spelling, because of course that's what Tolkien used.
> >> Unfortunately, they sometimes get it wrong.
>
> >The film had corn and tomatoes. That rattled the doors of disbelief.
>
> Oh, don't talk to me about the film.
>
> Though the first edition of _The Hobbit_ did have tomatoes in it;
> changed to pickles, I think, for the revised edition.
>
> As to the field of corn, as in maize, that was what was growing
> in the field in New Zealand at the time they filmed it -- and
> Peter Jackson, may his bones burn green, didn't care.
Tolkien isn't around to ask. That tobacco was grown seems clear, so
the whole Old World/New World division is broken. Tolkien is clear
that pipeweed is tobacco.
--
Will in New Haven
Dorothy J Heydt
Sep 3, 2012, 4:42:13 PM9/3/12
to
In article <099546ab-3210-4fb4...@x3g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
But he also says that it was brought to Middle-earth from
Numenor, which was way the heck across Belegaer (~= the
Atlantic), just out of sight of Valinor (~= North America),
whence it might have been brought to Numenor by the Elves.
Numenor, which was way the heck across Belegaer (~= the
Atlantic), just out of sight of Valinor (~= North America),
whence it might have been brought to Numenor by the Elves.
John W Kennedy
Sep 3, 2012, 6:03:03 PM9/3/12
to
only came into existence when the Sea was Bent, and Numenor was
destroyed.
--
John W Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract,
Man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams. "Bors to Elayne: On the King's Coins"
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