How do you write?
scififanman
entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
allow it? How do you write?
lclough
Kipling said there were nine and ninety ways of constructing
tribal lays. In fact this is probably an underestimate.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
FUTURE WASHINGTON (WSFA Press, October '05)
http://www.futurewashington.com
FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html
David Friedman
"scififanman" <jddh...@comcast.net> wrote:
I've only written one novel. I plotted all of it in my head, then told
it to my daughter in chunks, outlining as I did so, then wrote the first
draft in a month or two.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Miles
spelling, grammar etc. There are some rules (i before e except after c)
but once your past these there is no wrong way to write, this is just
my opinion of course.
Miles.
scififanman
I agree totally on this point. My question is in regards to each person
that writes. How do you write?
I will begin.
I have the fortunate capability of an endless imagination. As I write
my novels, it is similar to watching a movie for the very first time,
although I may think I know how it is going to end, the story usually
takes some unexpected and often surprising twists to reach the ending.
I recently finished a novel in a series I have, and my Fiance had asked
me what was going to happen in the next chapter. I responded, I don't
know, so I better get back to writing, I wanted to find out as well.
(True Story) I know the beginning, I know where I want it to end, but
how I get there is totally up to my imaginative writing and creativity.
In my youth, I tried doing outlines, it did not work for me. I tried
to use writer's software, it did not work for me. The only thing that
works for me is to sit and type and smack the keys on the keyboard as
my storyline and idea's develop, taking on a life of their own at
times. I become intimate with my characters, I know how they will react
or not-react as the case may be. Each character I develop uses a
small facet of my own being so that I may become more in touch with
them.
I find it fascinating to see how other authors write. It is amazing at
the differences and similarities between different people and their
approach to writing. Some prefer researching and studying their topics
thoroughly before starting, which is why I write fantasy, I prefer to
create worlds and physics, economies, landscapes and every aspect of
the world I am writing within. It allows me total control of what my
imagination delivers.
Miles
write (im fourteen) and i dont try to think i about what im putting
down to much, well obviously i think about it but i just sort of follow
a sentence with a paragraph, with a page, with a chapter and so on, and
so on.
Miles.
Miles
Helen Hall
scififanman <jddh...@comcast.net> writes
different methods for different books. Personally I aim for a Middle Way
in which I have a rough idea of the overall shape of the book, but I
don't plan the whole thing in detail up front, preferring to plan each
scene/chapter just before I write it. And I use an Excel spreadsheet.
Spreadsheets are really good for novel planning. Forget any fancy
authoring software you might see advertised. All you need is a
spreadsheet and a word processor. :-)
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
scififanman
Never used a spreadsheet for writing before, could you elaborate on how
you use it?
I use Microsoft Word for my writing.
Dorothy J Heydt
>scififanman wrote:
>
>> This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
>> entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
>> and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
>> allow it? How do you write?
>
>
>Kipling said there were nine and ninety ways of constructing
>tribal lays. In fact this is probably an underestimate.
However, it will be interesting to compare notes.
I start with an idea and an opening. I try to get on a little
further with the opening, while at the same time trying to
generate ideas and plugging them into a file titled "notes."
These eventually turn into something vaguely resembling an
outline. I usually generate what's going to be the ending fairly
quickly, and then I have to figure out how to get from there to
there. It's like the schtick where the zookeepers all line up to
hold the reptile house's prize python, one every couple of feet:
a couple of them are holding the head, and one of them has
managed to snare the tail, and then the others have to duck in
cautiously at the _moment juste_ and grab segments of the writhing
midsection.
The work I completed most recently was a piece of fanfiction, to
ease the grief of the cancellation of my favorite online game by
providing it with a really good ending. I posted a chapter a
week, so that I had not one but a series of deadlines, and I knew
I had to have exactly seventeen chapters because that's how many
weeks we had left till lights out. I knew what was going to be
in the last chapter, and even what its title was; I quickly
figured out what was going to be in Chapters 16 and 15; after
that I had to arrange a huge amount of material in such a way as
to fill the intervening chapters. I HAD to outline, which is
usually not my thing. I wound up writing little plot elements --
including the five very important Lost Artifacts, each of which
had to be used somehow -- on little sticky slips and arranging
them on the back of a large tray until they were properly
distributed. All this sounds very sloppy, and was; but I did
finish the thing.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Helen Hall
scififanman <jddh...@comcast.net> writes
>
>Never used a spreadsheet for writing before, could you elaborate on how
>you use it?
>
>I use Microsoft Word for my writing.
>
keeping track of word count and -- since I started using Nicky's idea of
the Circular Diagram -- I use it for planning the novel's structure.
I explain here how I do it:
http://llygoden.livejournal.com/127640.html
Nicky just draws hers by hand and they're probably completely unlike
mine, but I found the concept of plotting on a circle really useful.
scififanman
Very interesting approach, not sure it would work for me, but I can see
how it would help many authors store their thoughts and the sequence of
events.
Once again, I think I am rather fortunate, I store events and even
subtle nuances of a possible underlying theme in my head. I can recall
a simple line from a character I wrote two years ago and use that line
to develop an underlying meaning and plot in a later novel.
If only I was as organized as you.Unfortunately, I am not. (You should
see my desk, HOLY COW, where is that stapler?)
I can be sleeping and dream of something in one of my novels, a
possibility, and in the morning I recall it in vivid detail. I remember
most of my dreams as I sleep and they have inspired my writing for
years. Each person is so unique in their approach to writing, I find
it rather fascinating to see the differences amongst us all.
Miles
the tools menu?
Miles.
Nicky
Nicky's way:
1) Write the first thing that comes into my head until some sentences
turn into paragraphs
which turn into chapters.( drink coffee and eat chocolate)
2) Stop.Worldbuild research and plot using a circular diagram.( drink a
helluva lot of coffee and start on the red wine)
3) write synopsis and send to agent along with first chapters,
3) if agent approves and publishing contract follows- write book.
(otherwise forget about it and return to 1))
4) Read book - correct obvious mistakes and make fit for submission.
5) Recieve edits. 'Waste' enormous amount of time on usenet before
completing
edits etc. oh and drink even more coffeee and red wine though not
together because
that would not be very nice - sparkling Shiraz on the hand....
scififanman
I believe she tracks the word count by chapter in her spreadsheet. Word
only counts total words in the document. The spreadsheet is to keep
track of individual chapters within the total of the novel. This can
provide a better balanced word count per chapter. I know when I write,
in my style, I have fifteen page chapters and four page chapters. It is
very unbalanced and I have to go back during rewrites and add depth and
color to the shorter chapters to "catch up" to the longer ones. I do
not believe in chapter balance, as they need to differ, but I do try to
maintain a minimum page count per chapter.
Julia Jones
Miles <mileswa...@hotmail.com> writes
>You use exel to do a word count? My microsoft word has a word count in
>the tools menu?
You can use a spreadsheet for keeping track of things like how many
words written per day, how many words in each chapter/section written so
far, etc. This can be useful for keeping an eye on progress or whether
the chapters are reasonably evenly sized.
--
Julia Jones
"We are English of Borg. Your language will be assimilated."
Miles
reead next, and if i can find any ill get one of yours, be interesting
asking the author of a book why she did certain things in it.
Miles.
Chris Dollin
How /I/ [2] write [1] is by having a sketch of an idea about a setting and
a character and "just writing". Usually something happens that I find
interesting. I may know about some scenes "in advance" and may write
them out of order - but that risks them being obsoleted by later previous
events [3].
(So, in the case of _Breakouts_, my WISuspension, I know how/why the
protagonist dies [4], and I know the "climactic encounter" scene [5],
and there's a bunch of other stuff that will fit in.)
Text is mutable. CVS is my friend.
[1] Except when I don't. Which is too often.
[2] Nine-and-sixty ways and all that. There are lots of different processes,
and this particular question has been kicked round the block several
times before. Which is not to say it won't burst in a different and
interesting way this time.
[3] No, I haven't done time-travel stories.
[4] Years later, in a different book.
[5] No, not /that/ kind of climactic, Julia!
--
Kubuntu Hedgehog
Notmuchhere: http://www.electric-hedgehog.net/
Otherface: Jena RDF/Owl toolkit http://jena.sourceforge.net/
Nicky
talk
about specific things about my books it's probably better to contact me
through
my website. Everyone here is already thoroughly bored of me taking
about my books.
Cheers,
Nicky
(Patricia Wrede has also done YA books and you can buy them and mine
from amazon)
Miles
Nicky
Miles wrote:
> Oh so they wont be in libraries?
They might be and you could probably order them, as they are in some
libraries.
( I'm not famous enough to be in every library)
I don't know about Patricia's stuff as she is primarily published in
the US ( I think?)
but librarians can usually get stuff if you ask them to.
Cheers,
Nicky
Michelle Bottorff
I am a setting centric writer who plots via landmark events.
To unpack.
Once I have made up my settings they are highly resistant to change, if
I want to muck with stuff it has to be the plot or the characters or
viewpoint or whatever. Likewise I need to have a bit of an idea what
the setting is about in order to write anything at all.
Plotting via landmark events is knowing before hand certain turning
points must occur, pointing the characters in the general direction of
the first one, when they get there pointing them at the second and so
forth.
I love hearing about people who write scenes like beads and string them,
or who write a story back to front. Such coolness!
My method is so much more boring.
--
Michelle Bottorff -> Chelle B. -> Shelby
L. Shelby, Writer http://www.lshelby.com/
Livejournal http://lavenderbard.livejournal.com/
rec.arts.sf.composition FAQ http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html
Helen Hall
Miles <mileswa...@hotmail.com> writes
>You use exel to do a word count? My microsoft word has a word count in
>the tools menu?
>
each chapter separately. Yes, I know I don't have to these days; it's a
hangover from 20 years ago when I wrote on a BBC Master 128[*] computer
which would only hold 5,000 words max.
So, having counted the words in each chapter, I enter that into the
spreadsheet, which then keeps track of how many words I've done overall.
Also I enter my daily word count and produce graphs, just to help me see
how I'm progressing.
Helen
[*] That was it's memory size. 128K mind you, not 128MB. :-)
Jacey Bedford
scififanman <jddh...@comcast.net> writes
enthusiasm takes me (often five chapters or so).
At that point I have an idea of where the story is going and how it's
going to end up, but no detailed plan.
When I get to the point where I sit back and say, 'OK this needs some
detailed thinking about or else I'm going to lose control of all the
threads,' I stop and write a brief plan. Then I continue with the plan
as a guide, but I don't always stick to it exactly. If I deviate too
much from the plan I write another plan to take the deviations into
account.
Rinse and repeat.
When starting each morning I try to read what I wrote yesterday to get
myself back into the zone but I only edit fully or maybe rewrite if it's
complete crap and heading in the wrong direction, otherwise I don't move
forward (and after all this is only a first draft).
Once the first draft is complete I try and put it to one side for a
while. (How long? That depends on what else is happening in my writing
and non-writing life.) I hope that by the time I come back to it I'll be
detached enough to see the blunders and inconsistencies in plotting and
characterisation and also spot the stylistic fluctuations and the
occasional POV shift. (By the time I got on to Book number four there
were fewer of these - thankfully.)
After the first major edit I do more trawls through for polishing prose
and proof-reading (as many times as it takes to feel as though it's as
good as I can get it) but I'm very bad at spotting when it's actually
ready to send out because if it was left up to me I'd keep on polishing
it until I'd all but polished the paint off.
Short stories are different. Usually I have an idea, sit down and write
it, leave it a while then edit and polish and send it out. The ones I've
sold are usually the ones written quite quickly, or - even better -
written to order for anthologies and the like. The ones I've sweated
over, edited and re-edited tend to be the ones that get left on the
shelf.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
Miles
so helen how many pages was this novel in total? Just wondering
MIles.
Alma Hromic Deckert
<mh...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>In article <1145814334.1...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>Miles <mileswa...@hotmail.com> writes
>>You use exel to do a word count? My microsoft word has a word count in
>>the tools menu?
>>
>The novel I've just finished ended up at 94,300 words. I write and save
>each chapter separately. Yes, I know I don't have to these days; it's a
>hangover from 20 years ago when I wrote on a BBC Master 128[*] computer
>which would only hold 5,000 words max.
I do that too and it's not a hangover from ANYTHING - my reasoning is
that if ONE chapter file gets corrupted for any reason that's ONE
chapter I have to re-do, not the whole fricking novel.
(as far as "how I wrte" is concerned... welll.. as I have said before,
my name is Alma and I hear voices. I sit down and write the story I am
told by the characters who are living it. And no, half the time *I*
don't know what 's coming next. I suck at synopses written before I
write the story, although the last big project was sold on the
strength of one, after, I have to add, I had a few go-rounds on it
with the editor in question...)
>So, having counted the words in each chapter, I enter that into the
>spreadsheet, which then keeps track of how many words I've done overall.
>Also I enter my daily word count and produce graphs, just to help me see
>how I'm progressing.
I don't do spreadsheets <G> I do all that stuff by hand. I don't do
graphs, either - they either make me punch drunk or depressed. I just
keep track of words, keep writing until I am done, and then revise.
And then have my first-line editor (who also happens to be my husband)
go through it, for consistency, accuracy, pace. I fix things he points
out which I agree with. Then I pack it up and send it to my agent.
After that, it's her game.
Miles
Miles.
Dorothy J Heydt
scififanman <jddh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>I can be sleeping and dream of something in one of my novels, a
>possibility, and in the morning I recall it in vivid detail. I remember
>most of my dreams as I sleep and they have inspired my writing for
>years. Each person is so unique in their approach to writing, I find
>it rather fascinating to see the differences amongst us all.
I'm happy for you. I've gotten a few ideas from dreams over the
years, but nowadays I forget them all as soon as I wake up, darnit.
Dorothy J Heydt
Julia Jones <julia...@jajones.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <1145814334.1...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>Miles <mileswa...@hotmail.com> writes
>>You use exel to do a word count? My microsoft word has a word count in
>>the tools menu?
>
>You can use a spreadsheet for keeping track of things like how many
>words written per day, how many words in each chapter/section written so
>far, etc. This can be useful for keeping an eye on progress or whether
>the chapters are reasonably evenly sized.
I've been known to do that, but in a plain text file, not a
spreadsheet. I don't dig spreadsheets. Hal has set them up
occasionally for me (to try to keep track of the budget, or what
not) and before I've worked with them a week, they break and turn
into gibberish.
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
>Alma would yo happen to have an obserd amount of cats?
Uh, two. You might argue that any cat can be absurd, but I don't think
two is excessive.
Why do you ask?
A.
scififanman
Alma Hromic Deckert wrote:
> I do that too and it's not a hangover from ANYTHING - my reasoning is
> that if ONE chapter file gets corrupted for any reason that's ONE
> chapter I have to re-do, not the whole fricking novel.
I keep a CD in the burner and back-up my work to CD every chapter.
This is an excellent method of storing your work in a way that protects
it not only from a corrupted file, but from a major PC malfuntion as
well.
Patricia C. Wrede
"Nicky" <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1145816924.0...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
The first two Enchanted Forest books had British editions, and so did a
couple of the other early titles, but they were all paperbacks -- I don't
know how your libraries would feel about them. I think most of them are now
just being imported, and I don't know how your librarians feel about that,
either (but I bet they don't buy many, given the prices!).
Miles, are you in England or in the U.S. or Canada, or somewhere else
entirely?
Patricia C. Wrede
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
Good idea. Would have entailed being ORGANIZED <G>
A.
Julia Jones
<djh...@kithrup.com> writes
that's important, and sundry other stuff I may want to keep the thing on
track. Occasionally character descriptions, to make sure someone has the
same eye colour throughout, etc.
Dorothy J Heydt
Miles, that's spelled "absurd."
And I don't know about Alma. I have four, and they're all pretty
absurd in one way or another, particularly Sebastian, who makes
rocks look smart.
Patricia C. Wrede
"scififanman" <jddh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1145807465....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
> entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
> and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
> allow it? How do you write?
Different books have worked different ways. The most common seems to be
that I start with something (it's not always the *same* something -- most
often it's either a character or a plot idea, but it's been everything else
from a theme to a setting to a fairy tale I wanted to rewrite) and spend a
while developing whatever is missing (if I have a character, I need more
characters and a plot and some setting; if I have a setting, I need some
characters and a plot; etc.).
When I get to the point where I have assembled enough story-stuff that it
reaches critical mass, I sit down and do a plot outline -- that is, about
five or six pages describing the story, not a "I.A.1.a." sort of outline.
Then I sit down and write the first chapter. I look at my outline, realize
it has nothing whatever to do with what I've written except that the main
character's name is the same, and throw the outline away. I write a *new*
outline, starting with the chapter I just finished, and then I write another
chapter. And the new outline isn't much better than the first one, except
for the part that described the already-written chapter, so I throw it away,
too, and do another outline. I keep this up, usually for around fourteen
chapters, at which point I'm usually able to chuck the outlines for good and
just finish the darned thing.
Patricia C. Wrede
Patricia C. Wrede
"Michelle Bottorff" <mbot...@lshelby.com> wrote in message
news:1he915l.14aw656l9nls9N%mbot...@lshelby.com...
> scififanman <jddh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
>> entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
>> and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
>> allow it? How do you write?
>
> I am a setting centric writer who plots via landmark events.
>
> To unpack.
> Once I have made up my settings they are highly resistant to change, if
> I want to muck with stuff it has to be the plot or the characters or
> viewpoint or whatever. Likewise I need to have a bit of an idea what
> the setting is about in order to write anything at all.
>
> Plotting via landmark events is knowing before hand certain turning
> points must occur, pointing the characters in the general direction of
> the first one, when they get there pointing them at the second and so
> forth.
>
>
> I love hearing about people who write scenes like beads and string them,
> or who write a story back to front. Such coolness!
>
> My method is so much more boring.
I dunno about that -- it seems plenty weird to *me*. Unless I'm doing
something set in a real-world landscape, the setting is the one thing I feel
as if I *can* control. I'm always having to drop in another mountain range
or impassable swamp in order to keep my characters from going off in some
direction I don't want them to go.
Well, OK, there's weather, too. But there's a limit to how many times you
can have a convenient blizzard or hurricane to delay or re-direct your
characters without it being really obviously manipulative. When I drop an
impassable mountain on top of the road my characters had been planning to
take, it's retroactive -- it's *always* been there, so they never had the
inconvenient option they thought they were going to get to use. It's just
as manipulative, but not nearly as obvious in the finished product.
Patricia C. Wrede
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
> entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
> and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
> allow it? How do you write?
My writing has always to me had the emotional resonance of writing down
a set of events that I am not in control over; I'm a chronicler of the
histories or stories of these other worlds that I happen to be able to
perceive.
My most typical process is that I have an opening bit, an image or set
of sensations or something, a little vague knowledge about what's going
on, and what is called around here a mode. (Mode is, as I think of it,
the animating spirit of this particular story.) I tend to call this set
of things a story-seed. I may know some things about the seed -- its
general species, say, or that somewhere in the middle of its growth
pattern certain events will happen, but not how to get there -- but I do
not have anything resembling plot, really. (Plot is something that I
can extract from things in retrospect.)
As I write, the seed develops more detail. I learn more things about
the situation and the surrounding world (even if I have written a great
deal of stuff in that world already; I have one that houses two novels
and an assortment of short stories). I get more knowledge of 'Oh, this
scene is going to happen somewhere'. I generally have a sense of which
scenes fall in which order, but am occasionally wrong; I generally have
a sense of how far off they are, but am frequently wrong. I discover in
chapter 30 the bit of background that makes a character's behaviour in
chapter 2 make sense.
It's like navigating a very foggy landscape with a compass and a couple
of landmarks that poke out of the clouds. I can see fairly clearly
what's around me, but don't know the lay of the land precisely, and I
know I'll go by that knobbly tree at some point on my way over there,
but it's not clear what will happen between here and there or even quite
how far away the tree is.
The thing I'm working on at the moment had me stumped for *years*
because the seed contained plot, and I couldn't figure out how to work
with that. Eventually I started writing it as if I didn't know what was
going on, much like usual, and it's more or less worked out all right.
--
Darkhawk - H. A. Nicoll - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
They are one person, they are two alone
They are three together, they are for each other
- "Helplessly Hoping", Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young
Miles
Miles.
Joann Zimmerman
mh...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this says...
> Various people here use all these different methods. Some people use
> different methods for different books. Personally I aim for a Middle Way
> in which I have a rough idea of the overall shape of the book, but I
> don't plan the whole thing in detail up front, preferring to plan each
> scene/chapter just before I write it. And I use an Excel spreadsheet.
> Spreadsheets are really good for novel planning. Forget any fancy
> authoring software you might see advertised. All you need is a
> spreadsheet and a word processor. :-)
What do you do w/ your spreadsheet that I wouldn't do w/ Word's tables?
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Elaine Thompson
wrote:
>
>Miles wrote:
>> Oh so they wont be in libraries?
>
>They might be and you could probably order them, as they are in some
>libraries.
/unlurk/
I don't know where Miles is posting from, but yours are in my two
local library systems, Nicky (N. California). Not that they make it
easy - you have four different author entries, so if I didn't know the
titles because I own them all anyway, I'd be puzzled.
They're good, Miles, go find copies - titles are:
HUNTED
BASILIK
WARRIORS of ALVANNA
WARRIORS of CAMLANN
STORY OF STONE
And, Nicky, don't you have another coming out?
>( I'm not famous enough to be in every library)
>I don't know about Patricia's stuff as she is primarily published in
>the US ( I think?)
>but librarians can usually get stuff if you ask them to.
Patricia has written a lot, check amazon for her titles.
/relurk
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
scififanman
Alma Hromic Deckert wrote:
> (as far as "how I wrte" is concerned... welll.. as I have said before,
> my name is Alma and I hear voices. I sit down and write the story I am
> told by the characters who are living it. And no, half the time *I*
> don't know what 's coming next.
<Snip>
Ironically, we write in very similar fashions. I had stated earlier
that I don't know what is going to happen next, it is like watching a
movie in my head. I don't hear voice's, but I think I know what you
mean by that. My characters are very independent of my thoughts. They
have a personality and respond accordingly inside my brain. This does
indeed help me to let their words flow through me as I type it on the
page. This person is overly confident, this one is quiet, and
generally communicate's through body language. This one over here is
stubborn and blunt. Each character develops their own persona and it
makes writing their parts so much easier for me.
The hardest part for me is killing off a main or semi-main character,
which I do quite often.
My worlds evolve and progress in time, and life and death is a major
part of that chronology.
Miles
miles.
Zeborah
[Helen wrote:]
> >-The novel I've just finished ended up at 94,300 words.
>
> so helen how many pages was this novel in total? Just wondering
We don't talk about pages much because it depends so much on the format.
When you format it in manuscript style to submit to an editor (12 point
Courier, double spaced, etc) there's only about 250 words to a page
(depending how long your words are and how much dialogue...)
When it's printed in a book, it depends a *lot*: depending on the kind
of font chosen, the size of the font, the size of the margins (oh yes,
and the size of the pages) one book might be 150 pages and another book
with the same number of words might be 300 pages.
So here we normally talk about words (or kilo-words). A good size for
an sf novel by a first time writer is usually approximately 80-120K
words (ie 80,000 - 120,000 words). But don't worry too much about this;
some publishers prefer books on the shorter end of this, and if the
writing's good enough and the book needs it then more words can be
acceptable. So just write what the story needs and worry about the
count later.
Zeborah
--
Gravity is no joke.
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz/
Nicky
> And, Nicky, don't you have another coming out?
I'm working on it almost as we speak : )
Nicky
Nicky
> And, Nicky, don't you have another coming out?
I'm working on it almost as we speak : )
Nicky
Nicky
Nicky wrote:
> > And, Nicky, don't you have another coming out?
>
> I'm working on it almost as we speak : )
>
Wilson Heydt
scififanman <jddh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I tried
>to use writer's software, it did not work for me.
Oh, goody! Next time we get a drive-by ad for what someone thinks
of writing software that is God's gift to writers, you can help
disabuse him of that notion. Sometimes it has to be done rather
forcefully...
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Wilson Heydt
Helen Hall <mh...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>
>[*] That was it's memory size. 128K mind you, not 128MB. :-)
Are we going for the bottom now? I worked as a programer on a 32K byte
IBM 360/30 and learned Autocoder on an 8K IBM 1440. (For slow, I'd trot
out the 80K *digit* IBM 1620 Mod. I that I learned SPS and FORTRAN on.)
Wilson Heydt
Recommedation from an Old User Programmer: Store at least one copy off site.
(When I burn backups, I always burn *2*. CD-Rs are dirt cheap and if an
accident befalls one, you've still got a chance to recover.)
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
>entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
>and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
>allow it? How do you write?
I read the book and the day after I finish it, I open up LiveJournal
and write.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/
Kat R
> This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
> entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
> and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
> allow it? How do you write?
>
I have a general plot idea and characters, or a scene that gives solid
hints of those. Then I start writing just to see what they do. When I
get stuck, I fall back and analyze, then outline broadly and begin
writing again. When I establish details, I stop and write them into the
outline and make sure I hook them all up by flagging the outline with
*bold* type at that detail/clue. Then I go on until I hit another snag,
revise the outline, go forward until I'm done and then revise the whole
thing to integrate the changes and detail support.
I write fantasy/SF mysteries, so I have to keep track of clues, red
herrings, witnesses, character appearances, and so on pretty
meticulously and the multi-layered outline works well for me. If I'm
having trouble outlining I use index cards: I write every character,
clue, location, and important action/scene on a card of an appropriate
color (pink for characters, blue for clues, yellow for actions/scenes,
white for bridging and additional material) and shuffle them around on
the floor or the bed until I have the plot elements in chronological
order. Then I look it over and determine if I need to do flashbacks or
inserts and flag those with green cards and move the whole sequence as a
block of cards to the new location.
Once I'm happy with it, I write a chapter-by-chapter outline with all
the details, clues, etc. noted (I write _huge_ outlines--34 pages for
125-135k words) and then I'm good to go and it's much easier to revise,
later, since I can see everything and how it links up, so making a major
change is a lot easier.
Yes, I'm a freak. But once I have the outline beaten into shape (takes
about 2 days) I write a chapter a day--2,500-5,000 words. So once I
have research and noodling and all that stuff done, it takes 40-60 days
to produce a first draft I'm satisfied with, then revisions take about a
month per pass. Unless the cat needs vacuuming.
--
Kat Richardson
Greywalker, coming from Roc, October 3, 2006
http://www.katrichardson.com/
Kat R
> You use exel to do a word count? My microsoft word has a word count in
> the tools menu?
>
>
I think she's probably tracking the word count incrementally and
entering the number of words she produced in a day or for a chapter in
the spreadsheet as she goes. Sometimes it's good to know what your
progress rate was, as well as your total word count.
Especially when you start revising, you may end up with fewer words or
your total word count doesn't look impressive ("what? I only did 47
words today?! I shall immediately go commit seppuku!") but knowing
where you started that day and how many words you took _out_ or changed
or moved will help you know how much _work_ you did. It really helps
you feel like you _did_ something, instead of thinking "I wasted the day
and got _nothing_ done."
I do this sort of whining all the time. "Oh... I didn't get anything
done!" When I actually worked my tail off. (And this really should be
obvious since I have no tail, but no... I always forget that.)
Kat R
> Miles wrote:
>> Oh so they wont be in libraries?
>
> They might be and you could probably order them, as they are in some
> libraries.
> I don't know about Patricia's stuff as she is primarily published in
> the US ( I think?)
> but librarians can usually get stuff if you ask them to.
>
> Nicky
>
I just picked up one of Patricia's collections last weekend, here in the
US. I think they should be findable in larger library systems.
Elizabeth
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:00:53 +0100, Helen Hall
> <mh...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>
>>The novel I've just finished ended up at 94,300 words. I write and save
>>each chapter separately. Yes, I know I don't have to these days; it's a
>>hangover from 20 years ago when I wrote on a BBC Master 128[*] computer
>>which would only hold 5,000 words max.
>
> I do that too and it's not a hangover from ANYTHING - my reasoning is
> that if ONE chapter file gets corrupted for any reason that's ONE
> chapter I have to re-do, not the whole fricking novel.
I do each chapter separately too. It gives me a conveniently-sized chunk of
book to work on at a time, which makes it easier to track what I've already
worked on (like chapter 4 needs some more description and chapter 5 needs
revised and chapter 6 needs written and chapter 3 needs polished). It's
also easy to print just one chapter for easy portability, or to send one
chapter off for critique.
--
Elizabeth. elizabeth hyphen writing at smallinfinity net
http://scriniary.smallinfinity.net
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pollyc/
Elizabeth
> In message <1145814334.1...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> Miles <mileswa...@hotmail.com> writes
>>You use exel to do a word count? My microsoft word has a word count in
>>the tools menu?
>
> You can use a spreadsheet for keeping track of things like how many
> words written per day, how many words in each chapter/section written so
> far, etc. This can be useful for keeping an eye on progress or whether
> the chapters are reasonably evenly sized.
And you can add deadlines and how many words you have to write a day to
meet them and how far behind you are and how many you have to do to catch
up and make lots of bar and line and pie charts... Maybe that's just me.
I have a spiffy spreadsheet but haven't been using it because I'm doing
rolling revisions, which makes my progress look really bad.
Elizabeth
> This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
> entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
> and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
> allow it? How do you write?
I'm only working on my second book, but the process has been similar for
both, so:
1. "Key scenes" appear from nowhere, carrying conflict, characters, and
bits of plot and setting. There may be 1-2 of these.
2. Daydreaming fleshes them out a bit, spawns more key scenes, investigates
different possibilites. If lucky, this could produce another 5-8 scenes,
only some of which are mutually incompatible.
3. A beginning appears! (This is a key scene waving a flag that says "I am
the beginning.")
4. Write, start to finish, without stopping to fix stuff. Along the way,
the plot changes and the key scenes that started the whole thing off may
never happen. Also, subplots and more characters appear.
5. Rewrite. This attempts to a) make the beginning of the book match the
end, and b) make the subplots and minor characters not suddenly appear and
disappear. This step may overlap somewhat with step 4.
5b. Do other important stuff like research and worldbuilding and making the
prose sound un-clunky.
6. Repeat step 5, while sending various sized chunks of book to readers,
until readers stop screaming in agony and I can't figure out how to fix the
rest of their complaints.
For my first book, draft 1 took 1.5 years. For the current book, draft 1
took 1 month, but for the rewrite step, I'm writing from scratch and not
even looking at that draft because so many things have changed. (And it's
still going significantly faster than that first book.)
Oh, and in between those books I tried to outline another book, but didn't
get very far so gave up. I just can't figure out what the characters would
do without actually writing.
Bill Swears
> This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
> entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
> and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
> allow it? How do you write?
>
paragraphs per chapter with the basic story charted out. This turns out
to be kickboard for what really happens as often as not, but it gives me
a structure to work with, and I can use it to get my characters back on
track if they go too far off the path I've set for them.
For shorts, I usually have some idea I want to develop. Sometimes its
the end state, sometimes its the setup.
Bill
--
Bill Swears
Ever Inappropriate, always contrite, and now... Ironic! How cool is that?
Bill Swears
> Miles wrote:
>
>>Oh so they wont be in libraries?
>
>
> They might be and you could probably order them, as they are in some
> libraries.
> ( I'm not famous enough to be in every library)
> I don't know about Patricia's stuff as she is primarily published in
> the US ( I think?)
> but librarians can usually get stuff if you ask them to.
>
> Cheers,
> Nicky
>
Nicky's locally, here in Alaska.
Michelle Bottorff
> Well, OK, there's weather, too. But there's a limit to how many times you
> can have a convenient blizzard or hurricane to delay or re-direct your
> characters without it being really obviously manipulative. When I drop an
> impassable mountain on top of the road my characters had been planning to
> take, it's retroactive -- it's *always* been there, so they never had the
> inconvenient option they thought they were going to get to use. It's just
> as manipulative, but not nearly as obvious in the finished product.
I have two snowstorms in Winds, and they were both landmark events
plotted out in advance. :)
I'm not sure how much concious control I *have* over the weather. More
than over the landscape I think. But then, even my most recaltrant
characters seem to be less ornery than your most cooperative ones.
Still, I have an easier time grasping your method than the beads on the
string or the work backwards thingy. For you I just have to say
setting= character, plot=setting, characteres=plot, and all of the
sudden the only thing that you do that that is strange is the rewritten
plot summary thingy, and the "I knew he was a nobleman because of what
he was wearing" thingy, and the ....
Okay. Forget it. You're strange too. :)
--
Michelle Bottorff -> Chelle B. -> Shelby
L. Shelby, Writer http://www.lshelby.com/
Livejournal http://lavenderbard.livejournal.com/
rec.arts.sf.composition FAQ http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html
Zeborah
> For my long stories, I do a story board. Usually one to three
> paragraphs per chapter with the basic story charted out. This turns out
> to be kickboard for what really happens as often as not, but it gives me
> a structure to work with, and I can use it to get my characters back on
> track if they go too far off the path I've set for them.
>
> For shorts, I usually have some idea I want to develop. Sometimes its
> the end state, sometimes its the setup.
Depending on what you mean by that second paragraph, I may be back to
front. For my novels I have an idea, and I know how it starts and a few
scenes here or there along the way and possibly the general shape of it
-- much of which is subject to change -- and as I write it I find out
what happens.
For my short stories, I think most of the time it's better if I know
from the start what happens, and can just power through and write it.
But I think I write my short stories in different ways. One I know I
wrote without knowing the ending, and went to bed trying to figure it
out, and worked it out, and got up again and finished it. One or two
I've written all at once. A number I've written the start of and then
got stuck because I don't know what happens. Some I've written the
start of and got stuck despite/because of(?) knowing what happens. The
current one I knew from the start pretty much what happened but
struggled for a while trying to figure out how to narrate it, then got
stage-fright about whether it'd work or not, and am now plodding away at
it over a week or two.
I rarely do any formal outlining, though, for anything (though I did
write down a couple of notes on this short so I wouldn't forget) and I
know that if I did for writing a novel it'd either be a waste of time or
be actively counterproductive.
Bill Swears
> Nicky wrote:
>
>> Miles wrote:
>>
>>> Oh so they wont be in libraries?
>>
>>
>>
>> They might be and you could probably order them, as they are in some
>> libraries.
>> ( I'm not famous enough to be in every library)
>> I don't know about Patricia's stuff as she is primarily published in
>> the US ( I think?)
>> but librarians can usually get stuff if you ask them to.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nicky
>>
> I can check Patricia's books out of the local library. I haven't found
> Nicky's locally, here in Alaska.
>
> Bill
>
downtown library. I'm going to order them tonight for local pickup.
David Friedman
"Patricia C. Wrede" <pwred...@aol.com> wrote:
> Unless I'm doing
> something set in a real-world landscape, the setting is the one thing I feel
> as if I *can* control. I'm always having to drop in another mountain range
> or impassable swamp in order to keep my characters from going off in some
> direction I don't want them to go.
Not married to a geologist, are you?
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
David Friedman
wrote:
> scififanman wrote:
>
> > This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
> > entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
> > and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
> > allow it? How do you write?
> >
>
>
> Kipling said there were nine and ninety ways of constructing
> tribal lays. In fact this is probably an underestimate.
It may be an underestimate of the number of ways but it is an
overstatement of what Kipling said.
"Nine and sixty ways."
Irina Rempt
> Recommedation from an Old User Programmer: Store at least one copy off
> site.
I have a backup on the server (in the house, but different machine); of
important things, also one on the ISP's server in Amsterdam (60 miles
away) and one on the other side of the world. Sometimes even on the
*other* other side of the world as well.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 31-Mar-2005
Irina Rempt
> I rarely do any formal outlining, though, for anything (though I did
> write down a couple of notes on this short so I wouldn't forget) and I
> know that if I did for writing a novel it'd either be a waste of time or
> be actively counterproductive.
I know that outlining would be actively counterproductive for me: been
there, done that. It kills the story completely dead, not to be
resuscitated by any means known to man, woman or furry creature from
Alpha Centauri. As long as it's in my head, or even in e-mail or chat
logs, it's fine; when I put it in a document labelled "outline" it
*exists* and I can't write it any more.
I've tried to consider my outline to be first draft so I could edit it,
but my brain wouldn't be fooled.
Irina Rempt
> 3. A beginning appears! (This is a key scene waving a flag that says "I
> am the beginning.")
Ooh, mine do that too, though more often than not the flag is the same
colour as the background so it's hard for me to spot.
Nicky
Kat R wrote:
>>
> I just picked up one of Patricia's collections last weekend, here in the
> US. I think they should be findable in larger library systems.
>
I don't know how many of hers are published in the UK and
it is harder to get foreign titles in British libraries ( I think)
because
the natives produce so damn many all on their own.
( There are more new children's titles published each year in the UK
than
the US apparently we're all at it.)
Nicky
Miles
> A good size for an sf novel by a first time writer is usually approximately 80-120K
Well i've written 7000 words so far and im half way down page 31,
second chapter. My font size is 18, and i am a first time writer so if
someone could tell me if im on track at all, that would helpful, and
could people not go on about different variables please, all i want is
a yes you are miles, or no your not miles. Thanks
Miles.
Irina Rempt
I can't tell you anything, because I haven't seen the whole completed
novel!
You may end up needing more or fewer words than you think now, as writing
tends to change as it grows, however carefully you plan and outline.
Worrying about length is something for the second draft. You'll probably
write things that will have to go, and other things that need to be
expanded, and things that are nice enough but can be missed if you need
to lose 20.000 words (happened to me, though zapping that bit made
another 7000 words necessary elsewhere so it didn't help as much as I
thought it would), but *you won't know until you've finished something*.
So go and finish it without worrying, and *then* analyse and plan.
Of course, you may be that rare species, the writer who *needs* to have a
complete plan in advance and is able to follow it exactly, but that's
also something you'll find out as you go.
Zeborah
Basically, yes, you are, though the details of why depend on exactly
what you're asking. If you don't care, and particularly if you're
feeling overwhelmed, *don't* read the rest of this message. You are
certainly on track.
...
(The following is here because I dislike not being precise, and in case
you want the information. But it's not really important so do please
ignore it if you want. What's important is that you're doing fine, and
should keep doing what you're doing.)
...
If you're asking about the fact that you've written so much already --
yes, you're on track; keep it up.
That you have 7000 words for 31 pages -- it's irrelevant; don't worry
about it.
That you have 7000 words for 1 and a bit chapters -- different
variables, sorry; some books have really long chapters, some books have
really short chapters. Terry Pratchett's books mostly have none.
That your font size is 18 -- this is clearly working for you to compose
with (it's nice being able to read the words clearly). When it's time
to submit the completed story to a publisher you'd change this, but
that's a while away yet, and you can ask about it then. Absolutely
don't worry about this in the meantime.
It's possible you're wondering what 7000 words means in relation to a
completed book. This is hard to answer because your story might turn
out to be a novella, or a novel, or a trilogy; some authors don't know
until they've finished it. But if you're sure it's a novel, and if you
want it to be of fairly average size for a typical modern sf/fantasy
novel, and assuming some other things to keep this simple... then at
7000 words you're between a 10th and a 20th of the way through.
I know this does sound annoyingly vague, especially if you're feeling
like you're moving around in the dark, or trying to figure out where you
stand. One of the reasons we equivocate about things like this is
because different authors work in different ways, and different stories
need different things, so we don't want to make it sound as if any way
is the only right way, in case that makes someone else think that their
way is wrong -- that might hurt their writing.
The best advice we can give you, I think, is to write the story and not
worry about the word count. That doesn't mean ignore it; it can be a
useful motivator to be able to say "Wow, look how much I've written
today!" or to promise yourself to write at least 50 words a day if
things are getting tough. But you're writing a story, and that story is
the important thing; that's what you should mostly be focusing on, I
think.
I'm sorry for going on, but hopefully buried in there somewhere was an
answer that helped. If not, can you let me know what might be more
helpful?
But I _do_ believe you're on the right track.
Miles
Miles.
Patricia C. Wrede
"David Friedman" <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-1BEA1C.2...@news.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <124nndr...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Patricia C. Wrede" <pwred...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Unless I'm doing
>> something set in a real-world landscape, the setting is the one thing I
>> feel
>> as if I *can* control. I'm always having to drop in another mountain
>> range
>> or impassable swamp in order to keep my characters from going off in some
>> direction I don't want them to go.
>
> Not married to a geologist, are you?
Not married at all, anymore.
Patricia C. Wrede
Patricia C. Wrede
"Miles" <mileswa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145871785.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
I'm not sure what you mean by "on track." 3500 words per chapter is within
the ballpark; it's a little longer than most writers use for chapter
lengths, but not really outside a normal range. So if that's what you
meant, then yes, you're "on track" in that sense.
As far as the *story* goes...no one can tell you whether *that's* on track
without actually seeing it. It may be a novel; it may be a novella or a
novelette; it may be a short story or a series-in-embryo. And if you are a
sit-down-and-write-it sort of writer, rather than the kind who plans
everything in advance, you're probably not going to actually *know* what it
is until you're finished. Once you've written a few things, you'll probably
start to get a feel for how long a particular idea is going to turn out to
be, but the first few times, you don't have anything to go on.
Patricia C. Wrede
Miles
> Well i've written 7000 words so far and im half way down page 31,
> second chapter. My font size is 18, and i am a first time writer so if
> someone could tell me if im on track at all, that would helpful, and
> could people not go on about different variables please, all i want is
> a yes you are miles, or no your not miles. Thanks
yeah that question was very vague sorry. I am AMATUEAR people.
Everyones got to start somewhere though, no time like the present? Well
ive written about another two pages and a little over 500 words doing
them. I have some ideas but i think i may get a 'writers block' soon.
As if I use just the ideas I have at the moment it will only be about
60k words max. Hopefully i am wrong and up to now I'm just having spur
of the moment ideas, which seems to be working.
Miles.
Patricia C. Wrede
>I (Miles) wrote:
>
>> Well i've written 7000 words so far and im half way down page 31,
>> second chapter. My font size is 18, and i am a first time writer so if
>> someone could tell me if im on track at all, that would helpful, and
>> could people not go on about different variables please, all i want is
>> a yes you are miles, or no your not miles. Thanks
>
> yeah that question was very vague sorry. I am AMATUEAR people.
We know that you're a beginner and may not know exactly how to ask a
question in order to find out what you want to know. But by the same token,
we can't always answer your questions without asking a few more to clarify
what you meant. That sort of thing happens all the time, even to people who
are very experienced writers and/or very experienced at asking questions on
rasfc. It's nothing personal.
> Everyones got to start somewhere though, no time like the present? Well
> ive written about another two pages and a little over 500 words doing
> them. I have some ideas but i think i may get a 'writers block' soon.
> As if I use just the ideas I have at the moment it will only be about
> 60k words max. Hopefully i am wrong and up to now I'm just having spur
> of the moment ideas, which seems to be working.
60K words would be a good solid first draft -- a little short for an adult
book, a little long for a YA/teen book (at least in the U.S.), possibly able
to adjust to either.
I'd say that you are on track, and you should just write until you've
finished and then see what you have. If you get stuck in the middle, or if
you find that you're having a particular problem with some piece of the
story (like the dialog, or getting from one scene to another, or some plot
point), ask and we'll take a crack at helping you out.
Patricia C. Wrede
Miles
> ask and we'll take a crack at helping you out.
Well i'll hold you to that! thanks. YA books mean young age right? Well
if I can every help with anything (unlikly) just ask, so if your
writing a teen book, i'm teen so if you want to get a prospective from
a reader your aiming at, i'm your man.
Miles.
Wilson Heydt
Miles <mileswa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I (Miles) wrote:
>
>> Well i've written 7000 words so far and im half way down page 31,
>> second chapter. My font size is 18, and i am a first time writer so if
>> someone could tell me if im on track at all, that would helpful, and
>> could people not go on about different variables please, all i want is
>> a yes you are miles, or no your not miles. Thanks
>
>yeah that question was very vague sorry. I am AMATUEAR people.
Actually...if you are intending to sell the stories you write
(regardless of whether you think you can sell *this* story or not),
you are a professional--or at least a potential professional. If
you're just writing because you like writing with no intent for
your works to see the light of day, then you *might* be an amateur.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Wilson Heydt
"YA" is "young adult", as contracted to "childrens books" or "adult
books". YA is heavily favored reading (speaking generally...there
are many exceptions) for mid-to-late teen. So it's the category
aimed right about where you are now.
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
18? *18*? How may words do you get a page???
What font are you using?
The traditionalists will tell you to use Courier 12 point; I use Times
New Roman, myself, but still 12 point. I type double-spaced. On
average, I get between 270 and 300 words a page (the traditional
guesstimate, with courier, is about 250 which makes it easier to
ballpark your word count when you need to).
I am trying to get my head around a page with 18-point font and
failing miserably...
A.
David Friedman
"Patricia C. Wrede" <pwred...@aol.com> wrote:
> "David Friedman" <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote in message
> news:ddfr-1BEA1C.2...@news.isp.giganews.com...
> > In article <124nndr...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > "Patricia C. Wrede" <pwred...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Unless I'm doing
> >> something set in a real-world landscape, the setting is the one thing I
> >> feel
> >> as if I *can* control. I'm always having to drop in another mountain
> >> range
> >> or impassable swamp in order to keep my characters from going off in some
> >> direction I don't want them to go.
> >
> > Not married to a geologist, are you?
>
> Not married at all, anymore.
I can report that putting geological features wherever they are
convenient to the plot leads to a certain amount of criticism from a
geologist spouse. How am I supposed to know where the water from all
those streams goes once I've finished using it for my purposes?
Miles
>Actually...if you are intending to sell the stories you write
(regardless of whether you think you can sell *this* story or not),
you are a professional--or at least a potential professional. If
you're just writing because you like writing with no intent for
your works to see the light of day, then you *might* be an amateur.
Well i have never really thought about selling it,well i lie, it had
crossed my mind but with so much compotition I doubt mine will even be
considered by publishers. As for being professional i'm in year 9 about
to do my sats its a bit early to start a career but being a writer is a
posability.
Miles.
Miles
>Actually...if you are intending to sell the stories you write
(regardless of whether you think you can sell *this* story or not),
you are a professional--or at least a potential professional. If
you're just writing because you like writing with no intent for
your works to see the light of day, then you *might* be an amateur.
Well i have never really thought about selling it,well i lie, it had
Miles
>18? *18*? How may words do you get a page???
>What font are you using?
I am using font BOOKMAN OLD STYLE; and i get about 250 words to a page,
which like you say is helpful to make estimations for how many words
ill have by page 40, 50 etc.
Miles.
Irina Rempt
> YA books mean young age right?
Young adult, in fact, but my twelve-year-old daughter reads them, and many
adults do too.
David Friedman
Alma Hromic Deckert <ang...@vaxer.net> wrote:
> I am trying to get my head around a page with 18-point font and
> failing miserably...
I work mostly on screen. My Word documents are almost always formatted
to 12 point--but I then use the zoom factor to take the whole page up to
about 150%, which is about equivalent to what he is doing in terms of
apparent print size. Of course, it also gives me a bigger apparent page
size.
Irina Rempt
> 18? *18*? How may words do you get a page???
>
> What font are you using?
>
> The traditionalists will tell you to use Courier 12 point;
For submission, surely? Miles is perfectly entitled to use the font he
prefers to *write*. I don't like to write in Courier either; I write in
11-point Bitstream Vera Sans, even when I use the word processor instead
of the text editor. Formatting to submit is a whole 'nother kettle of
fish.
Irina Rempt
> I can report that putting geological features wherever they are
> convenient to the plot leads to a certain amount of criticism from a
> geologist spouse. How am I supposed to know where the water from all
> those streams goes once I've finished using it for my purposes?
I used to have a geologist colleague (not a colleague geologist, but a
colleague who happened to have studied geology before he became a
technical writer) who told me to move a mountain because, whereas it
could easily be where it was, it wouldn't be a volcano. And I needed it
to be a volcano for story reasons.
Wilson Heydt
It's the difference between what is comfortable to read on the
screen and what you'd submit in. We've had innumerable examples
from people who keep screen settings and formats that are total
unsuited for manuscript format, and then change them for submission.
Miles...there is nothing wrong with writing in 18-point font. Just
be sure to ask the group of "manuscript format" *before* you
print it out for submission to an editor. There are some very
specific guidlines for that and you will drastically reduce your
chances of publication if you don't follow them. (On the other
hand, they're really easy to follow.)
Miles
getting a book published? manuscript..agents its all goes in one ear
and out the other for me. What do you meen by 'manuscript format',
enlighten me.
Miles.
Peter Knutsen (usenet)
> I believe she tracks the word count by chapter in her spreadsheet. Word
> only counts total words in the document. The spreadsheet is to keep
> track of individual chapters within the total of the novel. This can
> provide a better balanced word count per chapter. I know when I write,
> in my style, I have fifteen page chapters and four page chapters. It is
> very unbalanced and I have to go back during rewrites and add depth and
> color to the shorter chapters to "catch up" to the longer ones. I do
> not believe in chapter balance, as they need to differ, but I do try to
> maintain a minimum page count per chapter.
If you select a portion of text, MS Word can tell you how many words it
contains.
It is also possible to put a total word count "field" into the page
header or page footer, along with such traditional things as page number
and number-of-pages "fields", the story's title and your name.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen (usenet)
> Miles wrote:
>>Oh so they wont be in libraries?
>
> They might be and you could probably order them, as they are in some
> libraries.
> ( I'm not famous enough to be in every library)
> I don't know about Patricia's stuff as she is primarily published in
> the US ( I think?)
> but librarians can usually get stuff if you ask them to.
Would you benefit from it if he got one of your books from a (US) library?
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Nicola Browne
news:444d0e53$0$67262$157c...@dreader2.cybercity.dk
> > Would you benefit from it if he got one of your books from a (US)
library?
No, though I would if he borrowed from a UK one (though not very much)
It would cheer me up though : )
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Peter Knutsen (usenet)
> I've been known to do that, but in a plain text file, not a
> spreadsheet. I don't dig spreadsheets. Hal has set them up
> occasionally for me (to try to keep track of the budget, or what
> not) and before I've worked with them a week, they break and turn
> into gibberish.
If a spreadsheet does any kind of arithmetics, it may be helpful to
colour-code the cells according to whether the end user (i.e. you) may
write in them or not. Then if the end user accidentally writes in a
non-write colour-coded cell, she is to press Control+Z immediately.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Peter Knutsen (usenet)
> I do that too and it's not a hangover from ANYTHING - my reasoning is
> that if ONE chapter file gets corrupted for any reason that's ONE
> chapter I have to re-do, not the whole fricking novel.
I keep saving my work under new file names. Title v001, Title v002,
Title v003 and so forth.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Mary K. Kuhner
scififanman <jddh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>This has always been an interesting topic to me. Do you plot out the
>entire novel, do an outline and follow the outline? Do you get an idea
>and run with it, allowing your creativity to take you to where you
>allow it? How do you write?
All three of my completed novels were written by a weird process
that most people strongly disrecommend, namely taking scenes from
a roleplaying game, writing them up (out of order) and then trying
to string them together and shape them into a novel-worthy plot.
The thing I'm currently writing (about 29,000 words at the moment,
and appears destined, alas, to be a novella) I started at the
beginning knowing only a few scenes ahead. I have a very loose
one-paragraph outline, and I'm trying the method (learned from
Patricia Wrede) of writing until the outline is obviously wrong,
revising the outline, and continuing. I get stuck a lot but
so far never for more than a day.
Twice during November Novel-Writing Month I have tried just sitting
down and writing. I have come to the conclusion that this approach
is good for about 20,000 words of beginning and middle for me
but never produces endings. I could really use more techniques
for discovering or inventing endings and getting stories to arrive
at them.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Miles
decent first draft beginning?
Miles.
Miles
Joann Zimmerman
mileswa...@hotmail.com says...
The editors to whom you submit manuscripts have some very picky ideas
about how the manuscript should look. First among these ideas is that
the paper should be US Letter or A4 size, that there should be roughly
one-inch margins all around, and that the font should be 12-point
Courier or some close relative.
The editors do this not because they wish to be mean, but because they
have, over the years, become accustomed to working with this font and
these margins. Long use has made them be able to estimate various
details about what the finished book will look like to a remarkably high
tolerance.
The reason for *this* font in particular is that back before computers,
all manuscripts were typed on typewriters, which almost without
exception were sold with this font.
There are other important little details, such as where to put your
name, to manuscript title, and the page numbers.
It's all covered in the group's FAQ. The relevant section is at
http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html#manuscript .
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
>I (Miles) wrote:
>
>> Well i've written 7000 words so far and im half way down page 31,
>> second chapter. My font size is 18, and i am a first time writer so if
>> someone could tell me if im on track at all, that would helpful, and
>> could people not go on about different variables please, all i want is
>> a yes you are miles, or no your not miles. Thanks
>
>yeah that question was very vague sorry. I am AMATUEAR people.
Heh. we were all amateurs (that's how you spell it) once. But you're a
different generation of amateur than me.
You say you're fourteen. Let's see - aged fourteen I was writing
novels, this is true, but *I* was doing so longhand, in pencil, in
hardcover notebooks. I didn't know what font WAS, let alone the
niceties of size and typeface. I was maybe 16 whenI got my first
typewriter, and maybe 21 or so when I got my first computer, a little
Amstrad which I won in a writing competition. The Amstrad, although I
embraced it willingly, proved to be an odd duck - and I had it for
about a year or so before I realised that I wanted a REAL computer...
but then got faced with the fact that neither the hardware nor the
software of the Amstrad played well with others and I lost a huge
amount of stuff I wasn't willing to retype from scratch (probably just
as well, in retrospect). My first computer - close your ears, I'm
about to date myself - was a DOS-based thing, with a black and white
monitor that measured maybe 14 inches across and took up three
quarters of my desk, The computer itself had a 40K hard drive (yes,
you read that right) and worked with 5 1/4 inch floppies.
I was already in my twenties here, and I was still not worried about
fonts. As such. I was on my fourth or fifth novel or so (the original
ones, I"m not counting the really early blind imitation stuff)... and
I was still a rank beginner. Child prodigy I was not, with a published
novel by the time I turned 21.
I am now on my - let's see - counting the laptop years - seventh
computer since then, and that's probably conservative - I've known
people who upgrade every year or so. Fonts became important only when
I started actually actively submitting for publication - and if and
when you reach that milestone, Miles, I seriously suggest that you do
so with a font that's a tad smaller than your average newspaper
headline..
>Everyones got to start somewhere though, no time like the present? Well
>ive written about another two pages and a little over 500 words doing
>them. I have some ideas but i think i may get a 'writers block' soon.
Sweetie, you will ALWAYS have writers block. Everyone has them.
Everyone deals with them differently. Me, I just drop the project I'm
blocked on and start work on something else. And when I get back to
Project 1 - sometimes it has digested the block away all by itself,
and sometimes I have to work a little bit harder. But the trick in
this game is not just starting stuff. You gotta finish stuff, too.
Everyone gets stuck. Get unstuck. Find ways that work for you. Other
projects. Writer exercises. There are a million ways.
>As if I use just the ideas I have at the moment it will only be about
>60k words max.
Um. There, you may be in trouble. If you have only enough ideas for 60
words max, you're in trouble. That isn't even a short story. But ideas
at least are cheap and plentiful, What, you've never played the "what
if" game?...
A.