Rather hopeless (and long) plea for plot noodling
Anna Mazzoldi
Before Xmas I posted here saying that my WIP was stuck, and that I was
going to use some of the holiday time to work out how to solve this.
I didn't do the full outline as I had planned, but I re-read the second
half and worked out that the stuckness is not only psychological (though
that is relevant too--completophobia, or something), but actually has to do
with at least 2 subplots being hopelessly lame as they stand. So I'm still
stuck, but at least I have an excuse... ;-)
What's missing is about 2 chapters (I do long chapters) + epilogue. In this
space, the main plot thread and most sub-threads should be neatly tied up,
and some neat and tidy leads left for volume 2 (the other sub-threads are
already tied up earlier).
One of the two lame threads I can either drop completely or patch up in a
slightly unsatisfactory way. I'll probably write a resolution and then
decide in the second draft whether to keep it.[1]
The other one is more of a problem. I'd like to toss this to rasfc and see
if anyone has suggestions. Unfortunately, I have the strong feeling that it
may not be possible to make useful suggestions without having read all the
story to this point (and it's not in a state to inflict on beta-readers
yet). I'll try it anyway: suggestions can always spark ideas, even if they
are somewhat off-base -- and then there is the magic of rasfc.
The thread is about this character called Harian. He starts out as a friend
of the protag's, but by the end of the book he hates her with a total and
insane passion. He is a warrior, fairly good but not half as good as the
protag, and not exactly fearless and upright. He has a complicated
love/hate/inferiority/jealousy relationship with his ex-teacher (the
Raven), who died a year ago and is currently possessing the protag (the
possession only becomes evident at particular times, but he's "there" all
the time, in some way, and this can be felt by sensitive people). He was
one of the first people to notice this possession, and becomes insanely
jealous of Siriee (the protag), _and_ convinced that she's usurping his
rightful place as the Raven's successor.
In Chapter 16 (day 8, morning) a younger brother of Harian's is killed in a
duel because Siriee didn't intervene. This doesn't make Harian like her any
better, as can be imagined, and also creates a formal rupture between the
two Houses, which Siriee tries to solve by offering to make personal
reparations; Harian's House accepts, but takes time out to formulate a
request.
We are now in Ch 18 (day 9, evening). The whole story ends in Ch 20 (day
10, evening). (The epilogue takes a few more days, but it's only for
cleanup + setting up Book 2.)
What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
_like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
as such. I should also add that Harian doesn't stand a chance in a straight
fight against Siriee, and is intensely aware of it (=terrified). Originally
I had a plan, but now it looks impossibly lame for various reasons (mainly
to do with the way some other subplots have worked out). I'll give the
original plan and another one I've come up with in the meantime, just to
set the scene a bit, but what I need is probably some wild brainstorming!
The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian gets
into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this is
not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across as
rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the previous
chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
Anna
[1] The protag (a Rys) was supposed to foil an assassination attempt on the
Poor Bastard (a Noisse), made by the Noisse, by perpetrating some
high-speed slaughter. Except I don't want another high-speed slaughter,
there are too many of them in the last few chapters already. What will
happen is that the protag will foil an assassination attempt on the Poor
Bastard made by the _Rys_ (though with Noisse encouragement) by applying
her considerable if as yet unofficial authority and the _threat_ of some
high-speed slaughter. This is more elegant, except that it feels a bit
shoehorned--if I could move it to an earlier chapter it would be best.
[2] Of course, suggestions for a completely different course of action may
also be useful--or even more! Basically, I'm completely stuck.
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away!
Thomas Lindgren
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> writes:
> What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
> Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
> he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
> _like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
> grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
>
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
OK, I'll try a noodling attempt then:
First, we know that Harian hates Siriee, but what does Siriee feel
about Harian? Hatred, pity, fear, sternness, aloof incomprehension?
Second, how complex would you want this to be? When reading it, I
thought that Harian should do something vengeful that readers could
kind of understand but which also is going far too far. Killing a
kinsman of Siriee in revenge, perhaps, in tit-for-tat? Or a kinsman
of The Raven? If Harian's favorite brother got killed, maybe it's
sort of understandable.
Third, what does Harian think? He does from the description seem to be
ruled by bad temper, vengefulness and passion, so anything too
intricate is probably out of the picture.
Fourth, as written Harian also seems a bit pathetic. He's second best,
he's a sore loser, he tries to do something nasty and fails, Siriee
ignores him and goes to mommy and daddy (the house) to determine how
to punish him. Not too impressive. If this is the case, maybe you
should make him a bit more formidable? Otherwise, his future comeback
could be less interesting.
If my guessing above is somewhere near your intentions, then I suggest
Harian would take direct action. Challenge Siriee to a duel and try to
kill her? (And does he hope the Raven will possess him afterwards?)
Perhaps after drugging her coffee to even things out, if she's much
better than him, or otherwise reducing her capacity. During the duel,
his calumny is found out, so he will have to go into exile, but he
departs with something useful (whatever that might be) to spice up his
return. Or he could try to have someone else killed in vengeance
outside the rules, get caught out (whether he succeeds or not),
then exiled.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
David Friedman
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian gets
> into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
> killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this is
> not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across as
> rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the previous
> chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
1. Is there some way he can try to kill Raven?
I realize that Raven is already dead--but not entirely, since he is
possessing Siriee. Perhaps you could hint earlier that part of the
reason he is free to do so is something that could be changed--say
something accidentally (or intentionally) left out of the usual burial
ceremony. So Harian tries to do that something--which he, not being
responsible for Raven, has no right to do, and is obviously doing for
hostile purpose.
2. (Obvious) He tries to assassinate Siriee in some dishonorable
way--poison, say.
Dorothy J Heydt
[schnipp]
I can't help with your plotting problem; I just have a tiny
suggestion in another direction.
Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"? Everyone
will immediately think you're talking about Harlan Ellison, a
writer and public figure in the SF world of such strong
personality traits that no one can think about him with
neutrality, nor will they be willing to believe you're not
talking about him even if you had never heard of him before. If
you can possibly rename the character, I would.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Anna Mazzoldi
> OK, I'll try a noodling attempt then:
Thanks!
> First, we know that Harian hates Siriee, but what does Siriee feel
> about Harian? Hatred, pity, fear, sternness, aloof incomprehension?
She despises him. Has done for a while. Until recently, this mainly meant
that she just ignored him. Lately it has become impossible, so she treats
him with chilly aloofness instead.
> Second, how complex would you want this to be?
Complex is good. Especially since these two are going to meet again in Book
2 (in completely different circumstances). But things should get to some
kind of a resting point at the end of Book 1.
> When reading it, I
> thought that Harian should do something vengeful that readers could
> kind of understand but which also is going far too far. Killing a
> kinsman of Siriee in revenge, perhaps, in tit-for-tat? Or a kinsman
> of The Raven? If Harian's favorite brother got killed, maybe it's
> sort of understandable.
Ik. I hadn't /thought/ of this at all. Ik. Argh. Glurk.
I know, I'm too soft-hearted to be a proper writer ;-). No, seriously: I'll
have to consider this. It may be just the thing. It would have to be one of
Siriee's relatives, otherwise she wouldn't be the one with a right on
Harian's life. And she would find it terribly hard to let Harian live after
he's done something like that... but that's not a bad thing. I'll have to
go away and think if there's anybody I can kill off at this point...
> Third, what does Harian think? He does from the description seem to be
> ruled by bad temper, vengefulness and passion, so anything too
> intricate is probably out of the picture.
He's gone paranoid, he's not quite acting on immediate impulse. Some
planning and some intricacy are possible: the main constraint is time,
since whatever happens it has to happen between now and tomorrow evening.
> Fourth, as written Harian also seems a bit pathetic. He's second best,
> he's a sore loser, he tries to do something nasty and fails, Siriee
> ignores him and goes to mommy and daddy (the house) to determine how
> to punish him. Not too impressive. If this is the case, maybe you
> should make him a bit more formidable? Otherwise, his future comeback
> could be less interesting.
You're right, he is a bit pathetic: he's supposed to be, too. In Book 2, he
acquires a position that makes him a more dangerous enemy (though I still
wouldn't quite call him "formidable", that's just not him). In Book 1, he's
supposed to be a stumbling block, rather than a major antagonist (plus he
has a few other functions earlier on in the story). His strenght lies in
the fact that he knows more about Siriee than most of her enemies do (for
example, he's one of the few who know about the possession), and that he
won't be restrained by honour -- so he could find some powerful allies to
help him in his revenge.
> If my guessing above is somewhere near your intentions, then I suggest
> Harian would take direct action. Challenge Siriee to a duel and try to
> kill her?
No way. He'd be dead meat, and he knows. (Because of the events in the past
few chapters, right now "picking a fight with Siriee" is probably listed as
#1 foolproof suicide method in the lifestyle magazines of the city of
Lyanothel...)
> (And does he hope the Raven will possess him afterwards?)
It would cross his mind -- but he wouldn't count on it. Though /that/ could
be something he might try to accomplish by magic.
> Perhaps after drugging her coffee to even things out, if she's much
> better than him, or otherwise reducing her capacity.
Hmmm. This is better. And again, could be achieved by magic (literally
drugging her coffee or food would be really difficult at the moment). The
main problem with this is that Siriee has already fought a number of duels
in the last few chapters. I'm sure she wouldn't mind another one (she's
just that kind of girl, you know...): but it might become a bit repetitive
for readers, even though most of the duels she's already fought are only
summarized and not shown.
Alternatively, he could just poison her outright. I know someone who could
get him the poison. Then I'd have to work out how to save Siriee's skin, of
course... ;-)
> During the duel,
> his calumny is found out, so he will have to go into exile, but he
> departs with something useful (whatever that might be) to spice up his
> return.
That could work. Still dubious about having yet another duel, though.
Ah--and it would have to be someone else who finds out, because Siriee
would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
Many thanks,
Anna (goes away and looks speculatively at the list of Siriee's
relatives...)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Schrodinger: "Chicken? Chicken!? Where's my cat?"
Anna Mazzoldi
> In <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan:
> [attack on Raven's ghost in Siree by H-name, obviously dishonorable]
>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>
> Have him poison her sword(s) with something that is obvious, has obvious
> side effects and is furthermore too old/weak to work.
>
> I mean, he knows he's dead already, right? So if he dies in a way that
> implies that the Raven's successor is an _incompetent_ cheat, that's
> about the most discrediting thing he can hope to do.
Cool, and the right style for the character, but too late for that. After
the events of the past few chapters, nobody would believe this (even
assuming that they would have believed it earlier).
> (Since he's
> presumptively not up to stuffing the Raven in a spirit prison.)
Hm, this is a fascinating thought. He definitely isn't, and the only person
I know who might have a chance is on Siriee's side (and the Raven's
ex-lover). However, there might be someone I don't know about (at this
point in the book? hmmm...) or, more likely, he might _think_ that someone
else would be up to it. He does have access to one or two relatively
powerful shamans... Worth considering, certainly.
Hmmm. Except that it would require the possession to become public
knowledge (or at least to be made known both to Siriee's House and to
Harian's House). I don't think I want that to happen. Still. I'll think
about this.
Thanks,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi
This is either very Zen, or I'm channelling Goldilocks.
-- Helen on rasfc
Anna Mazzoldi
> 1. Is there some way he can try to kill Raven?
By magic, yes -- theoretically at least. I haven't thought this out, but I
could.
> I realize that Raven is already dead--but not entirely, since he is
> possessing Siriee. Perhaps you could hint earlier that part of the
> reason he is free to do so is something that could be changed--say
> something accidentally (or intentionally) left out of the usual burial
> ceremony.
By a strange coincidence, I've already hinted this ;-) (In fact it's more
complicated than that: but something did go quite pear-shaped at the
Raven's funeral). Yes, the Raven could be put to rest -- or at least, it
would be a conceivable thing to try.
> So Harian tries to do that something--which he, not being
> responsible for Raven, has no right to do, and is obviously doing for
> hostile purpose.
Yes, if he tried something of this kind it would be taken as a hostile and
traitorous move by the whole city of Lyanothel, not so much because Harian
doesn't have a right, but because of who/what the Raven is.
This could work. Except that the fact of the possession can't be made
public yet. A few people know: I'd have to arrange things so that those
people can vouch that Harian is a traitor -- and _his House_ would have to
believe them, which is the really tricky part. Or I'd have to decide that
Harian's House can be told the truth (Harian himself hasn't told anybody
because he hopes to get rid of Siriee, or the Raven, or both, before anyone
else notices).
> 2. (Obvious) He tries to assassinate Siriee in some dishonorable
> way--poison, say.
Yes, this is also a possibility -- though, as you say, it's a bit obvious.
There are other problems with the idea of poison, though. It's hard to
poison her at a time when she's only eating in her own house, she's not
visiting Harian's house because there's a feud between the two, and she's
constantly surrounded by a bunch of well-armed and keen-eyed groupies...
...unless she goes to Harian's house _precisely_ in connection with the
feud, to offer a solution maybe? This could actually be a possibility. If
he tried to poison her there, his House would exile him immediately and
without question. Hmmm...
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!'
Then there was still nothing. But you could see it.
Anna Mazzoldi
He's called Harian, really. Mostly referred to in the book as Harian
Selethima, to be precise -- and his full name is Harian Selethima ar
Sitraim. But I do understand the objection now that you've pointed it out,
even though I had never made the connection before! Do you think it's still
a problem even though he isn't _actually_ called Harlan, only awfully
close? (I could change his name to something like Heiran or Darian without
too much pain, but it would take me a while to get used to it, so I'd
rather not do it without need.)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Werner Heisenberg: "We are not sure which side of the
road the chicken was on, but it was moving very fast."
David Friedman
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> because Siriee
> would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
> realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
> the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
It's tempting to blame it all on feminism--but I'm not a feminist, in
any conventional sense, and I do it too. The two people in my WIS who
are shown as really talented at single combat are both women. And the
one central feature of the book for which I have no historical warrant
is the female military order they belong to.
I suspect it has something to do with the tension between the image of
the warrior and the background connotations of being a woman.
Mary Gentle
wrote:
He's 'Harian', not 'Harlan', unless I've been reading the AU rasfc again .
. .
And I have to say that, well-known as Harlan Ellison may be, I don't think
I'd assume every character in fiction would have to have some kind of
reference to him.
There again, I may not be the target audience of your remarks, being
perfectly happy to think of Harlan Ellison with as close to neutrality as
is consistent with liking some of his short stories.
Mary
Eric Jarvis
>
> <megasnips>
>
> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
>
>
I came up with a particularly unpleasant one that may be inappropriate on
a number of levels. My natural thought processes don't run along the
normal fantasy rails. :)
Harlan accuses The Raven of sexually assaulting him when he was still a
child.
The intention being to utterly discredit The Raven who is not in any
position to deal with the accusation without making the possession public.
It potentially stirs up antipathy between Sirlee and The Raven. It also
makes Harlan the centre of attention.
Whether it works depends on the cultural setting and how adult/difficult
you want the plot to be.
You might, perhaps, manage something similar with a less serious
accusation.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"I am a man of many parts, unfortunately most of
them are no longer in stock"
Dorothy J Heydt
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:13:50 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> In article <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
>> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>> [schnipp]
>>
>> I can't help with your plotting problem; I just have a tiny
>> suggestion in another direction.
>>
>> Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"? Everyone
>> will immediately think you're talking about Harlan Ellison, a
>> writer and public figure in the SF world of such strong
>> personality traits that no one can think about him with
>> neutrality, nor will they be willing to believe you're not
>> talking about him even if you had never heard of him before. If
>> you can possibly rename the character, I would.
>
>He's called Harian, really. Mostly referred to in the book as Harian
>Selethima, to be precise -- and his full name is Harian Selethima ar
>Sitraim.
Oh. Duh.
But I do understand the objection now that you've pointed it out,
>even though I had never made the connection before!
Honest to Pete, I looked at the name and saw "Harlan".
Do you think it's still
>a problem even though he isn't _actually_ called Harlan, only awfully
>close? (I could change his name to something like Heiran or Darian without
>too much pain, but it would take me a while to get used to it, so I'd
>rather not do it without need.)
Hm.
Now I don't trust my own judgment. What do the rest think?
Brian M. Scott
J Heydt) wrote in <news:Hr117...@kithrup.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> [schnipp]
> I can't help with your plotting problem; I just have a tiny
> suggestion in another direction.
> Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"?
She didn't: it's <Harian>, with an <i>.
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
J Heydt) wrote in <news:Hr155...@kithrup.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <1pgiawsoxpwjh$.1haf8b0ujr50c$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
[...]
>> Do you think it's still a problem even though he isn't
>> _actually_ called Harlan, only awfully close? (I could
>> change his name to something like Heiran or Darian
>> without too much pain, but it would take me a while to
>> get used to it, so I'd rather not do it without need.)
> Hm.
> Now I don't trust my own judgment. What do the rest
> think?
No problem. I don't think that the names are particularly
similar except to the eye (and I wouldn't object to <Harlan>
in the first place).
Brian
Catja Pafort
> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>
> Before Xmas I posted here saying that my WIP was stuck, and that I was
> going to use some of the holiday time to work out how to solve this.
Yes, stuckness. I hope that it will stop when Mercury stops being
retrogade tomorrow. Which explanation, out of the field as it might be,
sounds better than being stuck and having to do something about it.
Waiting sounds... easier.
> The thread is about this character called Harian. He starts out as a friend
> of the protag's, but by the end of the book he hates her with a total and
> insane passion. He is a warrior, fairly good but not half as good as the
> protag, and not exactly fearless and upright. He has a complicated
> love/hate/inferiority/jealousy relationship with his ex-teacher (the
> Raven), who died a year ago and is currently possessing the protag (the
> possession only becomes evident at particular times, but he's "there" all
> the time, in some way, and this can be felt by sensitive people). He was
> one of the first people to notice this possession, and becomes insanely
> jealous of Siriee (the protag), _and_ convinced that she's usurping his
> rightful place as the Raven's successor.
Sounds good. Not 'good' as in 'nice', but as in 'interesting'.
<snip>
> What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
> Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
> he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
> _like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame.
Sounds logical.
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
> as such.
> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
I'm certain that as an ex-friend/fellow student, or under the mantle of
'wanting to offer reparations' he could wriggle his way in, should he
want to.
And what the spell is supposed to achieve is pretty obvious to me: to
separate The Raven from Siriee. Which carries the very real danger of
leaving Siriee dead or incapacitated.
Catja
Patricia C. Wrede
"David Friedman" <dd...@daviddfriedman.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-2500E0.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> In article <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian
gets
> > into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> > there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
> > killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this
is
> > not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across
as
> > rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the
previous
> > chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
>
> 1. Is there some way he can try to kill Raven?
>
> I realize that Raven is already dead--but not entirely, since he is
> possessing Siriee.
Or is there some way he could try to shift Raven out of Siriee and into
himself? If he sees Siriee as having unfairly (somehow) obtained both the
ghost of his master and his own highly theoretical position as
heir-to-his-master, it seems that what he'd really *want*, on some level,
would be to set things right -- i.e., to take her place. Of course, if he's
conflicted about his former master, this could cause problems of various
sorts...
Um. Is he far enough into his own world that he would think that he could
beat Siriee if Siriee didn't have Raven on board? Or that he could if *he*
had Raven instead? Or that he could control Raven if he *did* get Raven on
board himself instead of in Siriee?
Or...what would be the effect of him accusing Siriee of cheating on her last
couple of wins, whatever they were, because she "used" Raven's skills?
Would anybody else believe him if he claimed she was possessed?
Whose house does Raven belong to-- Siriee's or Harian's or some other house
entirely? How do the master-student relationships work across Houses--if
Raven was of a different House from Harian, would Harian be expected to side
with Raven or with his House if there were a dispute between the two? Would
it be considered exceptionally odd of Siriee to be possessed by the spirit
of someone not of her own House, or would that be the usual way of things?
Does *Raven* know of any ancient scandals or other leverage that could be
useful?
Patricia C. Wrede
sharkey
through your post ... if it sounds daft, just ignore it :-)
Sayeth Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>:
>
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
That's got to be pretty high on the scale of shamefulness then:
although what order that scale is in depends a lot on their culture.
To us, it'd be attempted murder, or rape, but in your world maybe
some other form of assault or defilement would be as significant.
> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
> as such. I should also add that Harian doesn't stand a chance in a straight
> fight against Siriee, and is intensely aware of it (=terrified).
One question: is this just Siriee he doesn't stand a chance against,
or Siriee/Raven? Eg: what is the nature of her posession?
Does this added power bring with it added vulnerabilities?
> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene.
... or perhaps she has to find evidence of this work, despite Harian's
alibi ... after all, she needs to prove to _his_ house that he has
acted dishonorably.
> [...] also, I'm not entirely sure what the black magic would have
> accomplished exacly, and can't come up with anything appropriate
> at this point
The obvious thing to me would be an effect on the Siriee/Raven
connection, rather than directly attacking either of them.
Perhaps a reversal or a shift in their roles or a loss of
communication between them would be enough to put two souls
in conflict over one body. Perhaps this would be enough to
disorient Siriee/Raven enough to be vulnerable.
Where would Raven be if he was not possessing Siriee?
An assault directly on the soul would seem sufficient to deserve
severe punishment ...
Hope these ramblings have been useful,
sharks
Anna Mazzoldi
> In article <1b7w6re74vnws.1hjzsn9nbv016$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>> because Siriee
>> would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
>> realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
>> the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
>
> On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
> leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
I can't say. For me, it's just that female protagonists come kind of
natural -- and some of them want to be warriors. This one couldn't be
anything else... ;-)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Freedom defined is freedom denied. (Illuminatus)
Anna Mazzoldi
> In <myamobwllhcn.9...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan:
>> On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:01:17 -0500, Graydon wrote:
>>> In <1sp2qf5xvkt54$.58r07k3ky98e$.d...@40tude.net>, Anna Mazzoldi
>>> <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan: [attack on Raven's ghost in Siree by
>>> H-name, obviously dishonorable]
>>>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>>>
>>> Have him poison her sword(s) with something that is obvious, has obvious
>>> side effects and is furthermore too old/weak to work.
>>>
>>> I mean, he knows he's dead already, right? So if he dies in a way that
>>> implies that the Raven's successor is an _incompetent_ cheat, that's
>>> about the most discrediting thing he can hope to do.
>>
>> Cool, and the right style for the character, but too late for that. After
>> the events of the past few chapters, nobody would believe this (even
>> assuming that they would have believed it earlier).
>
> Well, sure, that's the whole point -- no one believes it. Siree catches
> him at it, has a member of his house inspect the sword *first*, and
> absolutely no one will believe it of her, even her sworn enemies.
Well, yes, I see your point. But I'm afraid that Harian, even though he's a
wee bit unbalanced at the moment, hasn't completely lost his sense of
reality: I can't see him doing something as daft as this -- he would
realize that nobody would believe it of her, and certainly not now.
[suggestion of stuffing the Raven in a spirit prison.]
> He might be looking into it and find out that it takes to long, hence
> the despair adequate to produce the plot with the swords?
This might have interesting developments. He doesn't actually _know_ that
time is so short -- the event that ends the story is unforeseen by all (ok,
all except the junkie shaman, but he doesn't tell). However, he would be
generally in a hurry to get rid of her before the possession becomes public
knowledge -- though I'm not sure how long he thinks he's got. In fact, this
can play nicely with some other things...
I still don't think he'd be desperate enough to try _that_ trick with the
sword, but you never know, I suppose it depends on how desperate _I_ get...
;-)
Just in case: how could he manage to poison her sword, given that she's
always wearing it -- except when she sleeps (in her room, in the middle of
her house, and the sword will be beside her on the floor) and when she's
sitting down (and the sword is laid in front of her or to her right side,
in its scabbard)? This is a rather special sword, and she never lets anyone
else handle it. (She's somewhat less jealous of her left-hand knife, but on
the other hand she doesn't lay it down when she's sitting, so in the end
it's probably even harder to get at.)
Anna Mazzoldi
> Or is there some way he could try to shift Raven out of Siriee and into
> himself?
Well, _I_ know that there isn't; he _should_ know, if he thought about it
straight; on the other hand, he might well delude himself into believing
that he can...
However, this by itself would not be considered a heinous crime (even if
the possession was public knowledge, and this is a bit of a sticking point
because I _don't_ want it to be). The _method_ used, on the other hand,
could be of such a kind as to qualify. Hmmm....
> If he sees Siriee as having unfairly (somehow) obtained both the
> ghost of his master and his own highly theoretical position as
> heir-to-his-master, it seems that what he'd really *want*, on some level,
> would be to set things right -- i.e., to take her place. Of course, if he's
> conflicted about his former master, this could cause problems of various
> sorts...
Yes. You're quite right that this is what he wants -- and also that it
would cause all kinds of problems. My idea was that he'd given up on this,
though: he would settle for getting rid of Siriee, or the Raven, or both.
It might be worth going back and re-thinking this, to see if it could be
made to fit the needs of this situation. Thanks!
> Um. Is he far enough into his own world that he would think that he could
> beat Siriee if Siriee didn't have Raven on board? Or that he could if *he*
> had Raven instead? Or that he could control Raven if he *did* get Raven on
> board himself instead of in Siriee?
He might think that, indeed. (Yes. And he has _no_ idea of just how bad it
would be for him if _he_ got possessed by the Raven... Well, it won't
happen, so I can stop cringing...)
> Or...what would be the effect of him accusing Siriee of cheating on her last
> couple of wins, whatever they were, because she "used" Raven's skills?
> Would anybody else believe him if he claimed she was possessed?
They might. My first reaction had been "they definitely would", but then I
thought again. See, she *was* possessed during the very last of her duels,
and there had been a noticeable change in her fighting style: this is
already in the story. So the people who had seen her (lots) wouldn't need
much convincing there. Except that there is a theory going around, that her
*sword* is in some way "guided" by the Raven (it used to belong to him);
and a prophecy that the Raven is going to be reincarnated as a baby with
some specific marks (the search is on, and a couple of likely candidates
have been found). A possession of this kind is not what people are
expecting.
More importantly, though, being possessed by the Raven wouldn't be
considered "cheating". At the moment, it would be considered grounds for
coronation ;-). And I don't want this to happen just yet.
> Whose house does Raven belong to-- Siriee's or Harian's or some other house
> entirely?
A third House.
> How do the master-student relationships work across Houses--if
> Raven was of a different House from Harian, would Harian be expected to side
> with Raven or with his House if there were a dispute between the two?
With his own House, since he's not the Raven's apprentice any more (in fact
he's nobody's apprentice, he's "graduated" to full warrior).
> Would
> it be considered exceptionally odd of Siriee to be possessed by the spirit
> of someone not of her own House, or would that be the usual way of things?
Possession itself is not the usual way of things. The way it normally works
is reincarnation. In fact, this is what the whole novel revolves around...
(And yes, the fact that he's not of her own House makes things even more
unusual. And very complicated in a society which is entirely based on House
allegiance, since she finds herself being part of 2 Houses in a way which
has no precedents in traditional memory.[1])
> Does *Raven* know of any ancient scandals or other leverage that could be
> useful?
Does he now? This is a very interesting suggestion. He's a bit unreliable,
though, and mostly rather single-minded (he wants to accomplish his own
revenge, basically, and Harian isn't involved in that).
Lots of things to think about! Thanks,
Anna
[1] Once this story comes out, there would be some serious pressure on her
to get things "normalized" by marrying into the Raven's house;
unfortunately, the best candidate for a spouse (the Raven's younger sister,
and Siriee's sometime lover) is a rather sensitive shaman and would be a
tad spooked by her brother's presence in the bedroom...
Anna Mazzoldi
> Anna Mazzoldi AnnaU...@iol.ie wrote:
>>
>> <megasnips>
>>
>> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>>
>> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
>> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
>> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
>> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
>> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
>> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
>> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
>> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
>> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
>> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
>> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
>>
>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>>
>
> I came up with a particularly unpleasant one that may be inappropriate on
> a number of levels. My natural thought processes don't run along the
> normal fantasy rails. :)
>
> Harlan accuses The Raven of sexually assaulting him when he was still a
> child.
Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
"Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
As for the suggestion, I'm afraid that it wouldn't really fit that society
(though if it did, I certainly wouldn't put it past Harian at the moment).
Also, the Raven was only 2-3 years older than Harian, which would be
another problem. (He had become a famous warrior at an exceptionally young
age, which is why he was Harian's teacher despite the small difference in
age.)
> You might, perhaps, manage something similar with a less serious
> accusation.
Hm. Sex between teacher and apprentice is *the* sexual taboo in this
society (though nothing to do with age, since people who are old enough to
be apprentices are also considered old enough to have sex). However, by
doing this Harian would also be condemning _himself_ to death or exile, and
I'm not sure he's quite that desperate. But I think the main objection is
that the Raven is such a hero that it would take a lot more than Harian's
word for people to even seriously consider the possibility that he might
have done something as despicable as having sex with his apprentice.
Still... there would be some interesting possibilities there. Definitely
worth thinking about, it's an angle I hadn't considered at all.
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Enologay (sm):
Sommelier omosessuale, sostenitore
dei test nucleari
Anna Mazzoldi
> G'day Anna, some quick thoughts which came to mind while skimming
> through your post ... if it sounds daft, just ignore it :-)
>
> Sayeth Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>:
>>
>> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
>> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
>> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
>
> That's got to be pretty high on the scale of shamefulness then:
> although what order that scale is in depends a lot on their culture.
> To us, it'd be attempted murder, or rape, but in your world maybe
> some other form of assault or defilement would be as significant.
Yes, pretty high indeed. The culture is quite different, though. Murder,
for a start, is defined very differently... wait a minute. The most
unforgivable thing (for a warrior) is killing someone who isn't a warrior.
If he went for one of Siriee's non-warrior relatives... But why would he?
(And I'd still prefer something connected to the Raven). As for rape, it
just doesn't happen. (There are good cultural reasons for that, trust me
;-) These people aren't _quite_ human, though they come very close.)
What else? The worst crimes of all would be treason to the city or to his
own House; sex with a pupil/teacher; "black" magic; killing a "whale". For
a warrior like Harian, a serious breach of honour would also count (as it
would dishonour his whole House, who would then have no choice but to
punish him) -- which could cover a lot of things in the way of unfair
fighting, cowardly behaviour or breaking his word.
>> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
>> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
>> as such. I should also add that Harian doesn't stand a chance in a straight
>> fight against Siriee, and is intensely aware of it (=terrified).
>
> One question: is this just Siriee he doesn't stand a chance against,
> or Siriee/Raven? Eg: what is the nature of her posession?
He wouldn't stand a chance even against Siriee on her own. Though he might
delude himself that he would, in his current unbalanced state of mind. (The
nature of her possession is something that nobody in the story-world has a
clear handle on yet, including Siriee herself. Even the junkie shaman isn't
quite sure, and he's extremely close-mouthed anyway.)
> Does this added power bring with it added vulnerabilities?
It does, but he has no idea what they could be. Except I suppose for a
specific vulnerability to magic directed against the Raven -- as a
"spirit", he would be more vulnerable to magic than a "whole" person (who
has a few more things to rely on, including a solid body). This could be
useful, in fact.
>> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
>> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
>> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
>> to disappear from the scene.
>
> ... or perhaps she has to find evidence of this work, despite Harian's
> alibi ... after all, she needs to prove to _his_ house that he has
> acted dishonorably.
This might take time. I have less than 2 days, during which other important
things are going on. I suspect that if this was the case Siriee would just
drop the charge, or more likely put it aside until a few more urgent things
are solved (_she_ doesn't know about the time limit, only the author...)
>> [...] also, I'm not entirely sure what the black magic would have
>> accomplished exacly, and can't come up with anything appropriate
>> at this point
>
> The obvious thing to me would be an effect on the Siriee/Raven
> connection, rather than directly attacking either of them.
> Perhaps a reversal or a shift in their roles or a loss of
> communication between them would be enough to put two souls
> in conflict over one body. Perhaps this would be enough to
> disorient Siriee/Raven enough to be vulnerable.
Yes, that makes sense.
> Where would Raven be if he was not possessing Siriee?
Good question. I suspect he would simply be dead. (He would be in the
Shadows, and he would need a shaman to show him the way home; after which
he would "melt" into his House's blood like a good dead soul.)
(The general opinion, on the other hand, is that his soul is currently
inhabiting some new-born baby, and everybody is looking for the right baby
all over the city. Which is quite convenient for Siriee...)
> An assault directly on the soul would seem sufficient to deserve
> severe punishment ...
Indeed. But this would require telling everybody about the possession,
which I'd like to avoid.
On the other hand... people are expecting the Raven to be reincarnated. And
they have come to the conclusion that, for some mystical reason, Siriee is
fated to be the young reincarnation's protector. So if the attack was
clearly on the Raven, it would still be seen as falling within her remit
even if the actual whereabouts of the Raven's soul weren't known... Now
_this_ sounds useful! <scuttles off to reconsider a couple of possibilities
she'd previously discarded>
> Hope these ramblings have been useful,
I think they have. Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
A child of five could understand this!
Fetch me a child of five.
Peter C. Spahn
I'm more of a lurker than anything else. Assuming I understand your
problem, does the attack have to be through magic? What if Harian
uses poison. Perhaps a servant in the house is indebted to him for
some nefarious reason and ge agrees to poison mistress Siriee. The
servant gets caught (or perhaps has second thoughts) and gives up
Harian's name.
As to it being more of an attack on the Raven, perhaps the poison is
not designed to kill but instead render the victim a vegetable,
catatonic or (can't think of the right word) someone who is still
fully aware of their surroundings and conscious of what is happening
to them but their muscles are completely paralyzed, not even allowing
them to talk. I can think of few worse punishments for a master
swordsman.
Anyway, hope that helps and good luck.
Pete
--
Dreamwalker: Roleplaying in the Land of Dreams
http://DreamwalkerRPG.home.att.net
Download Dreamwalker's opening fiction:
http://home.att.net/~dreamwalkerrpg/Simpler_Times.pdf
Peter C. Spahn
>
>
> Alternatively, he could just poison her outright. I know someone who could
> get him the poison.
>
Well, hell. I guess I should read the entire thread before opening my
virtual mouth. :)
Pete
Eric Jarvis
I was watching the football over the weekend and Wolverhampton Wanderers
got a lot of coverage. A few years ago their manager, Dave Jones, was
accused of sexually assaulting a teenage boy in Liverpool. He lost his job
and spent nearly three years unable to find work. Yet he hadn't even been
in Liverpool at the time the assault was supposed to have occurred, and
he'd left the coaching job his accuser claimed he was in six months before
the alleged assault.
Hit the right taboo and the allegation is enough to really hurt even if
there is evidence to prove it false. In a medieval setting I suppose the
usual allegation would be heresy.
The normal unscrupulous attack in politics is the indirect and indistinct
one. Attacking somebody by making vague assertions about their political
allies is a common way that the "ethically disadvantaged" deal with anyone
who has a squeaky clean record. So in a modern setting it would be done by
starting a whispering campaign.
One of the most vicious trick is to take something utterly innocent, but
which can be presented as suspect, and to demand an explanation. As long
as the explanation is likely to be more complex than the "accusation",
then the mud will stick. Yet the accuser hasn't had to lie.
There was a perfect example of it a few years ago on our local council.
Two Labour councillors had expenses approximately 75% higher than anyone
else's, almost all of ot taxi fares. This was sent out as a press briefing
by the local conservatives. They neglected to mention that the two
councillors were the only two disabled people on the council and
consequently the only councillors who regularly required taxis. One of the
two ended up in hospital after she and her three children had been
besieged in their home for 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen
demanding a statement.
Sadly reality has more vicious examples of such things than my imagination
can manage.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"
Patricia C. Wrede
"Anna Mazzoldi" <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:1e5ywwx98j36r$.1g70938qiy8c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0000, Eric Jarvis wrote:
> Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
> "Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
It may have to do with the font that they're reading messages in, remember.
> I'm not sure he's quite that desperate. But I think the main objection is
> that the Raven is such a hero that it would take a lot more than Harian's
> word for people to even seriously consider the possibility that he might
> have done something as despicable as having sex with his apprentice.
> Still... there would be some interesting possibilities there. Definitely
> worth thinking about, it's an angle I hadn't considered at all.
Is there only one apprentice per master, or were there several? Could
Harian accuse Raven of having sex with some *other* apprentice? Preferrably
one who's conveniently dead and can't testify to the contrary? Especially
nice if said apprentice died under mysterious circumstances? Could Harian
*threaten* to accuse Raven in order to get Siriee to do something useful to
him (like, meet him in a dark alley where he's got shamans all set to switch
the possession over to himself...or just a bunch of thugs to beat her up)?
Is he twisty enough to think of faking a letter with such a threat, on the
theory that she'll take it back to his House to complain and then he can
"prove" that it's not his own handwriting and make everybody think that
*she* was trying to frame *him*?
Patricia C. Wrede
Patricia C. Wrede
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:16:04 -0600, Patricia C. Wrede wrote:
> > Whose house does Raven belong to-- Siriee's or Harian's or some other
house
> > entirely?
>
> A third House.
OK -- can he try to drag them into the mess somehow? Or, since you don't
want the possession to be common knowledge, can he arrange for something
*there* that Raven would surely want to go see about, thus neatly getting
Siriee away from her home ground? Using his inside knowledge of the
possession to manipulate her/them. Depending on the mores of the culture,
involving a third House in a two-House dispute might very well be considered
heinous enough to warrant exile; if that isn't enough, then whatever he
tries once she gets there might fill the bill.
> (And yes, the fact that he's not of her own House makes things even more
> unusual. And very complicated in a society which is entirely based on
House
> allegiance, since she finds herself being part of 2 Houses in a way which
> has no precedents in traditional memory.[1])
So is there some way Harian can use this to his perceived benefit?
Especially since at this point it's still a secret to everyone else?
> > Does *Raven* know of any ancient scandals or other leverage that could
be
> > useful?
>
> Does he now? This is a very interesting suggestion. He's a bit unreliable,
> though, and mostly rather single-minded (he wants to accomplish his own
> revenge, basically, and Harian isn't involved in that).
Hmm. Is there anything that both Raven and Harian know about, that Siriee
doesn't? I assume lots, actually, since Harian was Raven's apprentice, but
I mean something besides the usual master-apprentice stuff. Or...does
Harian know his old master well enough to know that he's set on revenge, and
who the revenge is on? He doesn't need to be *involved* in order to *know*
about it...and maybe there could be something there that he could use.
As for poisoning the sword, if you want to go that way, you could have
Harian send Siriee a fancy poisoned *scabbard*. Which will poison the sword
as soon as she puts it inside. Naturally, she wouldn't touch it if she knew
who it was from, so he'd have to send it in a way that made her think it was
from someone else. Like Raven's sister, the sometime lover, perhaps?
Preferrably with no note that could be traced back, but with some token that
would convince Siriee or Raven or both that it was real. Or that would
convince Siriee but not Raven (or vice versa), so that she's suspicious of
it right off.
Patricia C. Wrede
J?rg Raddatz
> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
>
> into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
> killing her. Problems: same problem getting into the house; also, this is
> not an attack on the Raven, but only on Siriee; also, it may come across as
> rather lame unless I highlight the Room of Names a bit more in the previous
> chapters--it's only been mentioned, more or less.
>
>
Hm. Let me try to sort what I have taken from other posts:
~ The possession is not generally known. Of Harians house, only he
himself knows of it. Right?
~ He has no obvious means of entering the house the protag belongs to.
~ He has access to magic, but not to extremely powerful magic.
It would really help to know what exactly constitutes "horrible,
shocking" in the eyes of his house. I understand that they are a
fighter-training institution, right? Are they obsessed with
*honourable* fighting, so a number of "too easy" methods (poison,
magic, perhaps even all ranged combat) is frowned upon? Are there some
(obscure but) important symbols he could misuse, which would make the
attempted crime more heinous - I mean, trying to kill a RC priest with
a knife in the back is bad, but poisoning his ceremonial wine (or the
chalice he will drink it from) is worse.
Generally, I think one good course may be: Siriee visits Herians house
in order to improve the situation between the two houses, to show some
goodwill. Perhaps even to give them some info they would really like
to have and which will be lost for them if she dies. So, when he uses
the opportunity and tries to kill her, he willingly compromises the
advantage of his own house.
the method he chooses is either
~ designed to make the Raven leave her body after she is dead and to
do something which would greatly favor him (make a declaration? enter
Harian?). For this, he needs magic. Can this be a kind of shamanic
magic that is very inappropriate in the worldview of his house? So, he
would not only break the vow of Hospitality they have given to Siriee,
he would use contemtible magic *and* destroy his houses chance to get
the valuable info.
~ or, he uses the situation to kidnap someone who is accompanying
Siriee and is very dear to her. Now he can try to blackmail her into
giving up the spirit of Raven, or ... hm, wait, new idea ...
Is there anyone who
~ has been a friend/dependant/relative of the Raven and is slso a
friend of Siriee
~ might accompany Siriee to Harians house (or wait outside?)
~ is either less powerful than Harian OR can be overwhelmed with a
dirty trick?
~ most important of it all, can be somehow convinced that Siriee is
responsible for the unplanned fate of the Raven (ie using him for her
own gain)? (An alternative would be, of course, mind magic, but then
it would be could if the victim is hit with magic especially designed
for him, not just a Generic Mind Control Ray [1].)
The idea is that Harian might not try to fight Siriee himself, but to
convince someone else that s/he has to fight his/her former friend
Siriee, who is presented as a Bad Bad Person by Harian.
This way, another duel would be much more interesting if Siriee does
not know *why* her friend suddenly tries to ikll her and really does
not want to kill him/her.
Jörg
[1] "being hit by a Mind Control Ray", OTOH, suddenly becomes much
more interesting if one imagines a large, smelly, dripping sorcerous
fish.
Thomas Lindgren
Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
> They neglected to mention that the two councillors were the only two
> disabled people on the council and consequently the only councillors
> who regularly required taxis. One of the two ended up in hospital
> after she and her three children had been besieged in their home for
> 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen demanding a statement.
Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
huge political victory?
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
R. L.
wrote:
/snip/
>Harian attempts something
>unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
>life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
>to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
>grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
>
>What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
>undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
>must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
>Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
>action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
>as such.
I'd start by thinking what things would be shameful, and quite easy to
get caught at ... and then work out some reason why he might want to try
one of those.
I'm assuming that this late in the book, you'd want something really
simple and clear-cut.
Whatever he tries, I don't suppose he could write an incriminating
letter or diary or spell preparations or something? Then when he is
caught and/or the document found, S or an ally could blackmail him to
accept voluntary exile and/or let himself be thought guilty of something
else instead. They might have the threat of revealing R's presence, but
wouldn't have to really do it: H would give in.
Whatever kind of spell he is trying, here are some possibilities....
If access to S's house is a problem, how about H is trying to cast the
spell from a private place of his own -- except that Raven catches him
at it and manages to get someone else to 'coincidentally' show up and
catch H in the act: perhaps some other enemy of H.
What sort of tokens from the victim does magic need? Suppose H is trying
to collect S's hair or fingernail clippings or something, and falls into
the cesspool at S's House and is pulled out by third parties and jailed
for burglary? Maybe he's covered in muck and incoherent from landing on
his head, so no one bails him out till he's spent the night in the drunk
tank. Would that be shameful enough, regardless of what his spell was
about? Again, R could be responsible for the 'coincidence' of the third
parties coming along just then.
As to what kind of spell....
You say rape doesn't happen. However, sex with a teacher is taboo.
Suppose he tried to get Raven to leave S's body by means of himself
having sex with S. The idea being that R would not want to stay in a
body that had had sex with R's student.
Depending on sexual customs and why there is no rape, some sort of
attempted magical seduction/trickery/coercion of S might be considered
shameful enough per se, even by people who do not know about Raven.
If sufficient shame requires the master-student taboo, then maybe H's
attempt to have sex with Raven/S would be shame on H, if known.
Suppose H is using magic to try to get S to have sex with him. Might
there be some incriminating writing or drawing etc involved with the
spell? Or might he be doing some larger spell to try to get R to leave
S's body, in which something shameful with S was a part?
Other possibilities. Could R's connection be revealed or hinted only to
one discreet elder in H's house, or perhaps a priest, whose word is
sufficient to get H exiled? If so, could R himself communicate directly
with the elder? -- If so, this could hint at a nice new plot arc for
next volume, about this formerly-minor-character elder who is now in a
position to become a player.
R.L.
--
RL at houseboatonthestyx
SAMK
> Many thanks,
> Anna (goes away and looks speculatively at the list of Siriee's
> relatives...)
>
Does she have a relative that Raven was quite fond of, perhaps?
SAMK
J.Pascal
> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
>
> A second plan. Again an attack by magic, of a different kind. Harian gets
> into the Room of Names in Siriee's house and writes down her name
> there--this is the place for dead people's names, so he's symbolically
In the spirit of a magic attack... he gets a *good* shaman/magic person
to prepare an exorcism and that good person goes where he can't go... and
he gets in far more trouble with his own people because of nearly
causing this other good, revered, person to commit an evil act, than if
he'd simply attacked her himself. The attack is clearly on Raven and he
gets extra bad mojo for corrupting (or attempting to corrupt) an innocent.
Khiem Tran
<snip>
> What I need to have by the end of Ch 20 is this: the rupture between the
> Houses sorted out, and Harian out of the city (or on his way out), so that
> he becomes available as an important character in Book 2. The way I would
> _like_ to achieve this is as follows: Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
> grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
Is Harian a viewpoint character? It could as simple as "he tries to
stab her in the back - he fails", if you show it from his POV and drag
it out a bit. (Will I? Won't I? Is Raven watching? One blow and it's
all over. Maybe she's in the same room with him and her back is turned
and her hands are occupied. Maybe the opportunity keeps coming up and
his nerve fails each time. Maybe he's agonizing over what to do. Try
it and fail and he's a dead man. But surely, not even Raven could do
anything about a knife in the back.) Maybe he's convinced that not
even Raven would expect it from him. Maybe he's bought some sort of
magic that's supposed neutralize Raven for a short period (the dead
Raven from the shaman?). (For bonus marks, when it does happen,
Siriee foils it in an heroic manner - reacting without Raven's help,
for example).
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
How about something putting his House above himself? Say, he endangers
people from his own House in his efforts to set up Siriee? The wrong
person drinks from the poisoned cup, for example, or he deliberately
thwarts Siriee when she does something to benefit his House as part of
the reparations.
I'm assuming that you want Harian as a villain. Do you want him to be
redeemed at some later stage? If so, another possibility would be for
him to do something that shames him so much that he goes into exile
without even being ordered to. Maybe his House never even finds out
the whole truth about it (except that he's dropped the demand for
revenge). He's already got a whole bag of issues - envy, inferiority,
fear, shame. Maybe he's about to do something terrible (against
someone else, not Siriee) and Siriee stops him. Maybe Siriee saves
_his_ life in a duel, repays the debt (as far as his House is
concerned), and also tips his own shame/inferiority complex over the
edge. cf Javert in Les Miserables.
Hope this helps,
Khiem.
J.Pascal
> In article <1b7w6re74vnws.1hjzsn9nbv016$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > because Siriee
> > would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
> > realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
> > the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
>
> On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
> leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
>
> It's tempting to blame it all on feminism--but I'm not a feminist, in
> any conventional sense, and I do it too. The two people in my WIS who
> are shown as really talented at single combat are both women. And the
> one central feature of the book for which I have no historical warrant
> is the female military order they belong to.
You have contraception? And does your female military order play
by mens rules or do they devise strategies to minimize the disadvantage of
being smaller?
But what is better for a society? One warrior, or several? Every
child born is one more hand to hold a sword... or a plow. And the
bottleneck in producing babies is the limit on wombs.
> I suspect it has something to do with the tension between the image of
> the warrior and the background connotations of being a woman.
Or the image of the underdog, gender non-specific. It's simply not
*remarkable* when a big guy is a good fighter.
Brian Pickrell
>
> The thread is about this character called Harian. [...] Harian attempts something
> unforgivable against Siriee; she catches him at it, and offers to spare his
> life as the reparation she owes to his House; the House accepts, but only
> to send Harian away from the city in shame. And here is where I will be
> grateful for any kind of suggestion.[2]
>
> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
> Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
> action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
> as such.
First comment: his plan doesn't need to be very clever or have much
chance of success, since the whole point is for him to get caught out.
He could try to stab her in the back or poison her little brother or
do evil voodoo that fails. Don't be more subtle than you need to.
Second comment: an easy way for him to deliver a backhanded slap at
the Raven is to himself violate the Raven's principles. Say the Raven
preached against poisoning little brothers his whole life; then Harian
gets caught trying to do exactly that; he announces that the Raven
taught him everything he knows; and Siriee offers to cut his throat.
Cally Soukup
> Yes, pretty high indeed. The culture is quite different, though. Murder,
> for a start, is defined very differently... wait a minute. The most
> unforgivable thing (for a warrior) is killing someone who isn't a warrior.
> If he went for one of Siriee's non-warrior relatives... But why would he?
> (And I'd still prefer something connected to the Raven). As for rape, it
> just doesn't happen. (There are good cultural reasons for that, trust me
> ;-) These people aren't _quite_ human, though they come very close.)
Can Harian set up some sort of ambush with a distance weapon such as a
bow, in a dark enough night/alley that he thinks he can get away -- but
it's too dark to see his victim clearly, and it's one of Siriee's
non-warrier relatives instead of Siriee herself? And he gets caught
red-handed?
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Anna Mazzoldi
Eh... That would be Siriee, I'm afraid ;-)
In fact, I've given this idea some thought, and I find that the main
problem with it isn't so much my own soft-heartedness, but that killing one
of Siriee's relatives off at this point in the story would seem rather
gratuitous. None of them were particularly linked to the Raven; and none of
them have been involved with Harian in the course of the story. If I killed
one of the relatives who have appeared as significant charachters, it would
be a very gratuitous way for them to die; if it was one of those who
haven't appeared much, it would seem like they've been put there simply as
a plot device (with some reason, too!) Although things in real life _do_
work like that often enough, it wouldn't be right in a story -- or in the
story I'm telling, anyway. If it had come at an earlier point in the story,
it would have been different, but it just feels wrong at this point.
So I'm keeping this at the back of my mind in case some link presents
itself that makes things look more consistent, but on the whole Siriee's
relatives can probably relax ;-) (They don't know what's going to hit them
in Chapter 20...)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Thomas de Torquemada: "Give me ten minutes with the chicken
and I'll find out."
Eric Jarvis
>
> "Anna Mazzoldi" <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote in message
> news:1e5ywwx98j36r$.1g70938qiy8c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0000, Eric Jarvis wrote:
> > Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
> > "Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
>
> It may have to do with the font that they're reading messages in, remember.
>
Bear in mind also that my eyesight is significantly less than optimal.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"I am a man of many parts, unfortunately most of
them are no longer in stock"
Eric Jarvis
>
> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
>
> > They neglected to mention that the two councillors were the only two
> > disabled people on the council and consequently the only councillors
> > who regularly required taxis. One of the two ended up in hospital
> > after she and her three children had been besieged in their home for
> > 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen demanding a statement.
>
> Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
> wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
> huge political victory?
>
Only if she was in a wheelchair. Not so in this case. Not all physical
disabilities are immediately visible.
However, the primary concern was getting the children out of the house. In
the end we used five cars and a van and a "snatch squad" of ten people,
used the cars to block the road to prevent any of the press following,
sent a couple of people to the front door as a diversion and then took
them out the back way.
Damn scary. Without doing anything untowards you can become public enemy
number one in a matter of a few hours, and there's very little you can do
to protect yourself from it.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
all these years I've waited for the revolution
and all we end up getting is spin
Mary Gentle
(Thomas Lindgren) wrote:
>
> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
>
> > They neglected to mention that the two councillors were the only two
> > disabled people on the council and consequently the only councillors
> > who regularly required taxis. One of the two ended up in hospital
> > after she and her three children had been besieged in their home for
> > 24 hours by a mob of reporters and cameramen demanding a statement.
>
> Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
> wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
> huge political victory?
If they have a wheelchair.
Not all disabled people are in wheelchairs -- even those who have mobility
problems rather than some other disability. There can be huge problems
with the "invisible injury" syndrome (blind people being treated as if
they're 'crazy' rather than not being able to see, etc).
Unless you do have some kind of visible 'accessory', the picture in the
papers will just make people say, "Oh, he/she looks perfectly normal; I
bet it's a scam."
Which, going back to Eric's original point, those people's political
enemies may well have been aware of.
Mary
GJ Pfeiffer
Mazzoldi <Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0000, Eric Jarvis wrote:
>
>> Anna Mazzoldi AnnaU...@iol.ie wrote:
>>>
>>> <megasnips>
>>> Any ideas? Suggestions? Mad plans? Help help!
>>>
>>
>> I came up with a particularly unpleasant one that may be inappropriate on
>> a number of levels. My natural thought processes don't run along the
>> normal fantasy rails. :)
>>
>> Harlan accuses The Raven of sexually assaulting him when he was still a
>> child.
>
> Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
> "Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
>
Erm ... make that three.
--
Glenda [formerly known as GJP and MamaG]
“Be careful of the words you say, keep them soft and sweet; You never know
from day to day which ones you'll have to eat.”
Unknown
David Langford
wrote (to Anna M.):
>Do you REALLY want to name your character "Harlan"? Everyone
>will immediately think you're talking about Harlan Ellison, a
>writer and public figure in the SF world of such strong
>personality traits that no one can think about him with
>neutrality, nor will they be willing to believe you're not
>talking about him even if you had never heard of him before. If
>you can possibly rename the character, I would.
I know this is based on a misreading of "Harian" (I read it that way
myself, first time around) but can't help mentioning that Anne McCaffrey
got away with it in her novel =Restoree=. Big studly leadership type called
Harlan, a major political force on the World Without Surnames.
Asimov put an (Andrew) Harlan in =The End of Eternity= (1955), but that was
before -- though only just before -- Ellison stories began to appear all
over the magazines.
Dave
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/
Anna Mazzoldi
> In <idh5nzx2ur12$.1i0e88o6...@40tude.net>,
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan:
>> This might have interesting developments. He doesn't actually _know_
>> that time is so short -- the event that ends the story is unforeseen
>> by all (ok, all except the junkie shaman, but he doesn't tell).
>> However, he would be generally in a hurry to get rid of her before the
>> possession becomes public knowledge -- though I'm not sure how long he
>> thinks he's got. In fact, this can play nicely with some other
>> things...
>
> Well, is he obliged to duel her or not?
Erm... he isn't, actually. Reading back through the thread, I see that this
is what you've been assuming. I hadn't noticed this, and had been assuming
that he would set up the duel solely in order to discredit her through his
plan.
As things stand, he could just sit tight and nothing would happen (Siriee
still has to pay reparations to his House for his little brother's death,
but he doesn't have to be involved in this). So the only source of urgency
would be the possibility of the possession becoming public knowledge before
he can do something about it. Sorry about the confusion!
>> Just in case: how could he manage to poison her sword, given that she's
>> always wearing it -- except when she sleeps (in her room, in the middle of
>> her house, and the sword will be beside her on the floor) and when she's
>> sitting down (and the sword is laid in front of her or to her right side,
>> in its scabbard)?
>
> Is she left handed?
Only when possessed ;-)
The sword at the side isn't supposed to be available for quick drawing:
it's a "peace" position, used to signal that she feels safe enough in the
house where she's sitting. (Of course, given that this is the custom, I'm
sure all warriors practice quick-drawing-from-peace-position, but that's
another story...). There are subtle social-nicery nuances about where to
lay your sword when sitting on the floor...
>> This is a rather special sword, and she never lets anyone else handle
>> it. (She's somewhat less jealous of her left-hand knife, but on the
>> other hand she doesn't lay it down when she's sitting, so in the end
>> it's probably even harder to get at.)
>
> Well, this is where the magic comes in; have it sent by some magical
> being, and oozed slowly through the leather scabbard in the night.
This would work -- but not with the kind of magic I have available. Though
the other suggestions could come in useful.
> It doesn't have to be the sword, either; it could be the ceremonial
> bowls of water for the ritual cleansing/drink beforehand, it could be
> rigging the rosin box if they fence win bare feet, it could be almost
> anything, it just has to have a better chance of working than the chance
> of him winning the duel to be worthwhile.
True enough. Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Anvedamine (sf):
Sostanze che si formano nel sangue in seguito
a brusche sorprese
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Thomas Lindgren ***********@*****.*** wrote:
>> Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
>> wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
>> huge political victory?
>>
>
>Only if she was in a wheelchair. Not so in this case. Not all physical
>disabilities are immediately visible.
And those of us for whom they're not visible don't really care to wear
warning lights on our heads.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Mary Gentle
(Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
[...]
> (The
> nature of her possession is something that nobody in the story-world
> has a
> clear handle on yet, including Siriee herself. Even the junkie shaman
> isn't
> quite sure, and he's extremely close-mouthed anyway.)
Just a very minor point -- you mentioned back up-thread that she fights
left handed when she's possessed by the Raven. I take that to mean she
normally fights right-handed. So, what explanation has she given for the
sudden swap?
I wouldn't automatically think 'possession' (unless it was a prominent
part of that culture), but if I knew her, I would think WTF? about her
changing handedness.
Mary
Thomas Lindgren
mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) writes:
I don't know what the disability was so it's hard to say what it would
have looked like. Still, trying to avoid the press seldom works as
well as one would like in these cases. That doesn't look good either.
Thomas Lindgren
Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
> Thomas Lindgren ***********@*****.*** wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
> > wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
> > huge political victory?
>
> Only if she was in a wheelchair. Not so in this case. Not all physical
> disabilities are immediately visible.
>
> However, the primary concern was getting the children out of the house. In
> the end we used five cars and a van and a "snatch squad" of ten people,
> used the cars to block the road to prevent any of the press following,
> sent a couple of people to the front door as a diversion and then took
> them out the back way.
So, what was the press verdict?
Eric Jarvis
>
> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Thomas Lindgren ***********@*****.*** wrote:
> >
> > > Wouldn't the obvious thing instead have been to roll out in the
> > > wheelchair, make a restrained but clearly suffering speech and score a
> > > huge political victory?
> >
> > Only if she was in a wheelchair. Not so in this case. Not all physical
> > disabilities are immediately visible.
> >
> > However, the primary concern was getting the children out of the house. In
> > the end we used five cars and a van and a "snatch squad" of ten people,
> > used the cars to block the road to prevent any of the press following,
> > sent a couple of people to the front door as a diversion and then took
> > them out the back way.
>
> So, what was the press verdict?
>
Two days of "looney left councillor's expenses binge" then they got bored.
No apologies, no corrections. Par for the course really.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Erol K. Bayburt
>On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
>leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
>
>It's tempting to blame it all on feminism--but I'm not a feminist, in
>any conventional sense, and I do it too. The two people in my WIS who
>are shown as really talented at single combat are both women. And the
>one central feature of the book for which I have no historical warrant
>is the female military order they belong to.
It seems to me that the popularity of women warriors in fiction goes back at
least to the Greek myths of the Amazons, so I don't think you can blame it on
either modern feminism or modern sf.
>I suspect it has something to do with the tension between the image of
>the warrior and the background connotations of being a woman.
I don't think it's that, at least not in general. It might be a factor in
"taming of the shrew" stories. But I think the general popularity has more to
do with the women in the warrior's role throwing off "highly desirable woman"
signals (healthy, high-status, a competent protector of her children, etc.)
--
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com
m.baro
Besides, everyone (men _and_ women) digs a pretty woman with sword, at
least fictionally. Men like to fantasize about the woman (that i.e,
procuring the strong, pretty woman for himself) and women like to
fantasize about being the strong pretty woman with a sword.
--
- Min
artist for sale! artist for sale!
http://treedweller.net
Holy Guacamole!
http://livejournal.com/community/puny_mortals
Heather Jones
I think there can be multiple -- even mutually contradictory
-- motivations behind a woman warrior motif, either for
different writers or even for the same writer. For
example, I could envision an anti-feminist motivation: "the
only worthwhile occupation is 'warrior', therefore the only
way to write an interesting female protagonist is to make
her a warrior, despite its historic peculiarity." I suspect
that the overall phenomenon is a synergy of several
different motivations.
Heather
--
*****
Heather Rose (you may now call me Doctor) Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
R. L.
wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:27:03 GMT, SAMK wrote:
>
>> Anna Mazzoldi wrote:
>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> Anna (goes away and looks speculatively at the list of Siriee's
>>> relatives...)
>>>
>>
>> Does she have a relative that Raven was quite fond of, perhaps?
>
>Eh... That would be Siriee, I'm afraid ;-)
>
>In fact, I've given this idea some thought, and I find that the main
>problem with it isn't so much my own soft-heartedness, but that killing one
>of Siriee's relatives off at this point in the story would seem rather
>gratuitous. None of them were particularly linked to the Raven; and none of
>them have been involved with Harian in the course of the story. If I killed
>one of the relatives who have appeared as significant charachters, it would
>be a very gratuitous way for them to die; if it was one of those who
>haven't appeared much, it would seem like they've been put there simply as
>a plot device (with some reason, too!)
What about, there is an attempt made on a significant character, but it
is foiled. Harian is caught and suffers the disgrace of having attacked
a non-warrior, but the character survives with little or no injury?
The relative and S could even plot to make it appear to H and others
that he succeeded, to pressure him into exile.
Someone else suggested that H attempts to ambush S but injures her
companion or lookalike instead.
Dan Goodman
news:3FFB7255...@socrates.berkeley.edu:
> I think there can be multiple -- even mutually contradictory
> -- motivations behind a woman warrior motif, either for
> different writers or even for the same writer. For
> example, I could envision an anti-feminist motivation: "the
> only worthwhile occupation is 'warrior', therefore the only
> way to write an interesting female protagonist is to make
> her a warrior, despite its historic peculiarity." I suspect
> that the overall phenomenon is a synergy of several
> different motivations.
>
And there's also mindless imitation of other stories.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
David Friedman
ju...@pascal.org (J.Pascal) wrote:
> > It's tempting to blame it all on feminism--but I'm not a feminist, in
> > any conventional sense, and I do it too. The two people in my WIS who
> > are shown as really talented at single combat are both women. And the
> > one central feature of the book for which I have no historical warrant
> > is the female military order they belong to.
>
> You have contraception?
Not mentioned, probably not.
> And does your female military order play
> by mens rules or do they devise strategies to minimize the disadvantage of
> being smaller?
They fight largely as mounted archers--meaning that they move on
horseback, shoot on foot--and also as light lancers. The men living in
the same area fight largely as heavy lancers--loosely speaking, knights.
Of the particular ladies in question, one is at least as tall as the
average man, the other (her adult daughter) small but very fast and
agile.
> But what is better for a society? One warrior, or several? Every
> child born is one more hand to hold a sword... or a plow. And the
> bottleneck in producing babies is the limit on wombs.
Or food to feed the babies.
The Order represent a small minority of the adult population. And they
aren't entirely out of reproduction--there are accepted customs for a
member to take a recognized lover and have a child by him.
> > I suspect it has something to do with the tension between the image of
> > the warrior and the background connotations of being a woman.
>
> Or the image of the underdog, gender non-specific. It's simply not
> *remarkable* when a big guy is a good fighter.
That's part of it. But there is also the "women are vulnerable and must
be protected" meme, which makes a scene where a woman is fighting for
her life more intense than if it were a man.
For Elaina (the daughter), your point is about right. For the Order as a
whole, I think it's the latter that is part of why I find them useful in
the story.
--
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Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com
David Friedman
Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:28:14 GMT, David Friedman wrote:
>
> > In article <1b7w6re74vnws.1hjzsn9nbv016$.d...@40tude.net>,
> > Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
> >
> >> because Siriee
> >> would consider it dishonourable to back out of a duel even though she
> >> realizes she's been drugged: she'd just go ahead with the fight, whatever
> >> the consequences. Think seriously single-minded samurai here...
> >
> > On a tangent--what is it that is so attractive about women warriors, and
> > leads to so many more of them in modern sf than in real history?
>
> I can't say. For me, it's just that female protagonists come kind of
> natural -- and some of them want to be warriors. This one couldn't be
> anything else... ;-)
In my case, my protagonist is male, and the female character I think I
like best (my "stealth heroine," since I didn't plan her that way) isn't
a warrior. But several of the others are.
I also have several boys in the story, and to some degree they serve a
similar function--feel vulnerable, and so set off certain emotional
reactions when in a battle.
Anna Mazzoldi
> What about, there is an attempt made on a significant character, but it
> is foiled. Harian is caught and suffers the disgrace of having attacked
> a non-warrior, but the character survives with little or no injury?
This is a possibility, indeed. Though I'd have to think whether "attempted
murder" counts as a serious crime in this society. I have the feeling it
doesn't, but I may be wrong. Anybody can remember offhand how it was
handled either in Norse/Viking/Icelandic law, or in _any_ Native American
law systems?
> The relative and S could even plot to make it appear to H and others
> that he succeeded, to pressure him into exile.
Nah, Siriee has a lot of faults, but sneaky isn't one (rather the reverse,
in fact). She would never do this (and I doubt that any of her relatives
would, either).
> Someone else suggested that H attempts to ambush S but injures her
> companion or lookalike instead.
That would have possibilities, but I'll keep it as a fallback option since
I'd rather avoid inserting another fight at this point.
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
There is always a choice.
-- Granny Weatherwax
Anna Mazzoldi
> "Anna Mazzoldi" <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote in message
> news:1eiwjnjd5lb5v$.x02rfu2zp4sb$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:16:04 -0600, Patricia C. Wrede wrote:
>
>>> Whose house does Raven belong to-- Siriee's or Harian's or some other
> house
>>> entirely?
>>
>> A third House.
>
> OK -- can he try to drag them into the mess somehow? Or, since you don't
> want the possession to be common knowledge, can he arrange for something
> *there* that Raven would surely want to go see about, thus neatly getting
> Siriee away from her home ground? Using his inside knowledge of the
> possession to manipulate her/them. Depending on the mores of the culture,
> involving a third House in a two-House dispute might very well be considered
> heinous enough to warrant exile; if that isn't enough, then whatever he
> tries once she gets there might fill the bill.
I think that involving the Raven's House would complicate things needlessly
here. I can after all have Siriee go to Harian's House for some matter
relating to the current dispute, and this would work even better than her
going to the Raven's House. Dragging a third House in wouldn't count as any
kind of crime in itself: once 2 of the major Houses get fighting, the other
Houses will automatically arrange themselves on one or the other side of
the argument -- sometimes one or more Houses may remain neutral, but in
this case the Raven's house is already squarely on the side of Siriee's
House, for reasons both of past alliances and of present circumstances.
>> (And yes, the fact that he's not of her own House makes things even more
>> unusual. And very complicated in a society which is entirely based on
> House
>> allegiance, since she finds herself being part of 2 Houses in a way which
>> has no precedents in traditional memory.[1])
>
> So is there some way Harian can use this to his perceived benefit?
> Especially since at this point it's still a secret to everyone else?
This is something I'll have to think about. I don't know if he's thought
this far -- that is, if he's realized that Siriee is in this "paradoxical"
situation: Siriee herself only realized it after being hit by a large
clue-by-four delivered by the Raven's sister. But it sounds like it would
have fascinating possibilities, probably in the form of divided allegiances
(either practical or ritual). Hmmm... in fact, there is potential for some
_very_ convoluted complications: so much so that I'm not sure I want them
at this point, I just want to finish the story! ;-)
>>> Does *Raven* know of any ancient scandals or other leverage that could
> be
>>> useful?
>>
>> Does he now? This is a very interesting suggestion. He's a bit unreliable,
>> though, and mostly rather single-minded (he wants to accomplish his own
>> revenge, basically, and Harian isn't involved in that).
>
> Hmm. Is there anything that both Raven and Harian know about, that Siriee
> doesn't? I assume lots, actually, since Harian was Raven's apprentice, but
> I mean something besides the usual master-apprentice stuff.
I'm not so sure, since at the same time as Harian was the Raven's
apprentice, Siriee was his lover and closest comrade-at-arms -- so
basically the three of them lived in each other's pockets all the time.
> Or...does
> Harian know his old master well enough to know that he's set on revenge, and
> who the revenge is on? He doesn't need to be *involved* in order to *know*
> about it...and maybe there could be something there that he could use.
He does, but then so does Siriee and the whole of the Rys nation (plus a
fair chunk of the Noisse nation, too). The death of the Raven was a rather
public affair, and already the stuff of legend; his revenge (carried out by
Siriee) is well on its way to the same status.
> As for poisoning the sword, if you want to go that way, you could have
> Harian send Siriee a fancy poisoned *scabbard*. Which will poison the sword
> as soon as she puts it inside.
Now, this is a thought.
> Naturally, she wouldn't touch it if she knew
> who it was from, so he'd have to send it in a way that made her think it was
> from someone else. Like Raven's sister, the sometime lover, perhaps?
> Preferrably with no note that could be traced back, but with some token that
> would convince Siriee or Raven or both that it was real. Or that would
> convince Siriee but not Raven (or vice versa), so that she's suspicious of
> it right off.
Hmmm... Couldn't be the sister because she's spending a lot of time with
Siriee at the moment, so she would find out immediately... wait, this
wouldn't necessarily be a problem, would it? They would immediately know
that the gift is a fake, and would have to find out what it does and who
it's really from.
Alternatively, it could be presented as a gift from the junkie shaman,
who's conveniently staying on an island about a day's travel from the city
and not budging from there -- but is involved in the whole mess with the
possession and has already been sending gifts to Siriee (would Harian know?
I suppose he could if I wanted him to). In this case, the fake wouldn't be
spotted immediately, but only later on. So I actually have 2 different
scenarios to choose from...
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Borsaiuole (sf): Scippatrici di fiori
Anna Mazzoldi
> "Anna Mazzoldi" <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote in message
> news:1e5ywwx98j36r$.1g70938qiy8c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0000, Eric Jarvis wrote:
>> Firstly, I just want to note that someone else read this guy's name as
>> "Harlan"... Interesting, definitely worth thinking about.
>
> It may have to do with the font that they're reading messages in, remember.
>
>> I'm not sure he's quite that desperate. But I think the main objection is
>> that the Raven is such a hero that it would take a lot more than Harian's
>> word for people to even seriously consider the possibility that he might
>> have done something as despicable as having sex with his apprentice.
>> Still... there would be some interesting possibilities there. Definitely
>> worth thinking about, it's an angle I hadn't considered at all.
>
> Is there only one apprentice per master, or were there several?
I'm afraid there was only the one (which is the normal setup).
> Could
> Harian accuse Raven of having sex with some *other* apprentice? Preferrably
> one who's conveniently dead and can't testify to the contrary? Especially
> nice if said apprentice died under mysterious circumstances?
I think sex-related accusations wouldn't work. Basically, the
master-apprentice one is the only serious sex taboo, the only one that
would produce the kind of horror reaction we get from child abuse today --
and there were no other apprentices, the Raven didn't live long enough.
However, I will put some serious thought into the possibility of some other
_kind_ of posthumous accusation, because the idea is interesting. Though it
would have to be something really exceptional to have the effect of
destroying the Raven's character rather than adding to his legend: for
example, he's already very publicly subverted a couple of important and
very holy rituals while he was alive (thus breaking important taboos), but
with such flair and success that these acts only added to his stature. Hm,
yes, basically they would have to be not only taboo actions, but more
specifically _shameful_ taboo actions. I'll think about this.
> Could Harian
> *threaten* to accuse Raven in order to get Siriee to do something useful to
> him (like, meet him in a dark alley where he's got shamans all set to switch
> the possession over to himself...or just a bunch of thugs to beat her up)?
Interesting idea. This would probably be the best application of any
appropriate accusation I can come up with. (And Siriee would have to make
some special efforts in order to lose her keen entourage of followers and
go to the rendezvous alone -- but this is no bad thing, it has story
possibilities in itself.)
> Is he twisty enough to think of faking a letter with such a threat, on the
> theory that she'll take it back to his House to complain and then he can
> "prove" that it's not his own handwriting and make everybody think that
> *she* was trying to frame *him*?
Twisty yes, but maybe not quite _together_ enough at the moment to work out
such a subtle plan. (And it couldn't be based on handwriting, because of
the way their writing system works -- but for the same reason, it could be
based for example on the note containing some pictographs that _he_
wouldn't use, most obviously because he doesn't know them or because
they're not used by his "moiety". Or something like that.)
Gosh, you know, I never thought that I would get _so many_ useful ideas out
of my request!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Go not to usenet for advice, for they will say both "no" and "yes" and
"sod off" and "did you look at this page?" -- Usenet Rule #17
Anna Mazzoldi
> The other Anna wrote:
>
>> Hiya all. Trying to exploit the magic of rasfc...
>>
>> Before Xmas I posted here saying that my WIP was stuck, and that I was
>> going to use some of the holiday time to work out how to solve this.
>
> Yes, stuckness. I hope that it will stop when Mercury stops being
> retrogade tomorrow. Which explanation, out of the field as it might be,
> sounds better than being stuck and having to do something about it.
> Waiting sounds... easier.
Indeed. My usual excuse is "sun spots". They're good for all kinds of
things...
So, did it work?
>> The original plan. Harian decides to attack Siriee/the Raven by black
>> magic: he has a dead raven prepared by a shaman, and nails it to a door in
>> Siriee's house where she will find it. She catches him before he has time
>> to disappear from the scene. Problems: he was supposed to get into the
>> house during a celebration to which his House would be invited (on day 9,
>> evening), but because of the rupture now his House won't show up, and he
>> would have trouble getting there unnoticed; also, I'm not entirely sure
>> what the black magic would have accomplished exacly, and can't come up with
>> anything appropriate at this point (in the original plan, the whole thing
>> would have happened earlier in the story, giving time for long-term, slow
>> magical effects); also a couple of other minor things.
>
>
> I'm certain that as an ex-friend/fellow student, or under the mantle of
> 'wanting to offer reparations' he could wriggle his way in, should he
> want to.
It's really tricky. A feud between two Houses is much more important than
personal friendship -- and he wasn't a close friends, just one of a crowd
of people Siriee tends to hang around with (he wasn't a fellow-student
either, which would indeed be a "formal" family-like link: Siriee had a
different teacher).
Ik. I just realized something. I was going to write "the Houses are built
like fortresses, so sneaking in is not an easy option either". But the
Houses only work as fortresses against the Noisse, not against other Rys:
because they are all open on the sea-side, where the Noisse can't reach
them, but other Rys can. Duh. I'd been so blindly assuming House=fortress
that I didn't even consider that Harian can just take a swim and land on
Siriee's unwatched back door. Argh. Sometimes I'm really daft...
> And what the spell is supposed to achieve is pretty obvious to me: to
> separate The Raven from Siriee. Which carries the very real danger of
> leaving Siriee dead or incapacitated.
Indeed. I think I was getting too knotted up thinking of possibilities and
counter-possibilities (and too fixated on the symbology of the _dead_ raven
_nailed_ to the door -- it's just that I've seen one, and it kind of stuck
in my mind...): now that you put it this way, this is indeed the obvious
answer.
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Ernest Hemingway: "To die. In the rain. Alone."
Anna Mazzoldi
> Assuming I understand your
> problem, does the attack have to be through magic? What if Harian
> uses poison. Perhaps a servant in the house is indebted to him for
> some nefarious reason and ge agrees to poison mistress Siriee. The
> servant gets caught (or perhaps has second thoughts) and gives up
> Harian's name.
Magic isn't compulsory; poison is a possibility (though in fact poison in
this setting would almost certainly involve magic, or be considered part of
magic). But no servants in this society -- and family members just wouldn't
do it. (On the other hand, I've now realized that Harian _can_ get into
Siriee's house easily enough. Getting into the kitchen would be a different
story, but it could be done late at night. Yeah, and Siriee catches him at
it because she was looking for a midnight snack... _bad_ brain, _bad_!)
> As to it being more of an attack on the Raven, perhaps the poison is
> not designed to kill but instead render the victim a vegetable,
> catatonic or (can't think of the right word) someone who is still
> fully aware of their surroundings and conscious of what is happening
> to them but their muscles are completely paralyzed, not even allowing
> them to talk. I can think of few worse punishments for a master
> swordsman.
This would indeed be seriously nasty.
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Identikilt (sm):
Procedimento di individuazione dei colpevoli
utilizzato dalla polizia scozzese
Thomas Lindgren
Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
> > So, what was the press verdict?
> >
>
> Two days of "looney left councillor's expenses binge" then they got bored.
> No apologies, no corrections. Par for the course really.
Well, in that case, I still think he or she should have made a press
statement :-)
Anna Mazzoldi
> Hm. Let me try to sort what I have taken from other posts:
>
> ~ The possession is not generally known. Of Harians house, only he
> himself knows of it. Right?
Right. If he goes for the magic-attack option, he'd almost certainly tell
some shaman in his house (because he'd need a shaman's help for the magic).
> ~ He has no obvious means of entering the house the protag belongs to.
That's what I thought. Then, just this morning, I realized that he can
simply swim in. (Or take a small boat if he doesn't want to get wet, after
all it's close to the winter solstice.)
> ~ He has access to magic, but not to extremely powerful magic.
Depends on the definition of "powerful". He doesn't have access to magic
that changes physical reality -- the magic used by this society is of a
shamanic kind, spirit magic + drugs and other substances, amulets etc. He
wouldn't have access to the most powerful shaman around because he happens
to be on Siriee's side, but he could get a decent one if I wanted him to.
> It would really help to know what exactly constitutes "horrible,
> shocking" in the eyes of his house. I understand that they are a
> fighter-training institution, right?
Nope. They're his family (a very extended family, working on rather
different principles from our own families). However, _he_ is a warrior
(which is his "Quarter", a kind of caste or rather moiety, in that it
determines a person's taboos and ritual allegiances more than it determines
their profession -- a person of the "warrior" Quarter could also be a
merchant or a weaver, for example. A House will have people from all
Quarters, which is why it's more like a moiety than like a caste.)
> Are they obsessed with
> *honourable* fighting, so a number of "too easy" methods (poison,
> magic, perhaps even all ranged combat) is frowned upon?
Very much so. And both your examples are correct. Honour is a serious
fixation with these people (all of them, and warriors in spades); and the
protag's name translates as "Pride", which is considered a virtue rather
than a sin...
> Are there some
> (obscure but) important symbols he could misuse, which would make the
> attempted crime more heinous - I mean, trying to kill a RC priest with
> a knife in the back is bad, but poisoning his ceremonial wine (or the
> chalice he will drink it from) is worse.
The raven would be one of these symbols: at the moment, nobody is allowed
wearing or using raven symbols of any kind except a small set of people who
were related to the Raven -- as a tribute to his memory and a recognition
of his "magical" importance.
More generally, having the crime be a breach of ritual taboo is a brilliant
idea, and I hadn't focused on this aspect. Thanks! (It could be used to set
up interesting parallels with the pivotal event that ends Book One, and
_that_ would be really neat in view of some stuff that could then happen in
Book Two...)
> Generally, I think one good course may be: Siriee visits Herians house
> in order to improve the situation between the two houses, to show some
> goodwill. Perhaps even to give them some info they would really like
> to have and which will be lost for them if she dies. So, when he uses
> the opportunity and tries to kill her, he willingly compromises the
> advantage of his own house.
This is a possibility, but not really needed. If he breaks hospitality, his
house is going to exile him anyway -- the only way to regain the honour
that would otherwise be lost by the whole house.
> the method he chooses is either
> ~ designed to make the Raven leave her body after she is dead and to
> do something which would greatly favor him (make a declaration? enter
> Harian?). For this, he needs magic. Can this be a kind of shamanic
> magic that is very inappropriate in the worldview of his house? So, he
> would not only break the vow of Hospitality they have given to Siriee,
> he would use contemtible magic *and* destroy his houses chance to get
> the valuable info.
Yes, magic of this kind would probably be seen as rather inappropriate by
anybody, not just his House. Even more so if he's messing with the Raven,
rather than just any old partially-embodied spirit... ;-)
> ~ or, he uses the situation to kidnap someone who is accompanying
> Siriee and is very dear to her. Now he can try to blackmail her into
> giving up the spirit of Raven, or ... hm, wait, new idea ...
No, can't have a kidnapping. There have been enough already ;-)
> Is there anyone who
> ~ has been a friend/dependant/relative of the Raven and is slso a
> friend of Siriee
> ~ might accompany Siriee to Harians house (or wait outside?)
> ~ is either less powerful than Harian OR can be overwhelmed with a
> dirty trick?
> ~ most important of it all, can be somehow convinced that Siriee is
> responsible for the unplanned fate of the Raven (ie using him for her
> own gain)? (An alternative would be, of course, mind magic, but then
> it would be could if the victim is hit with magic especially designed
> for him, not just a Generic Mind Control Ray [1].)
The first three conditions are easy enough, but the third I'm afraid is
impossible. Convincing of such a thing someone who was Siriee's friend
would take time; more importantly, they wouldn't be convinced before
discussing the matter with Siriee herself and probably also with some
shaman that they trust. After which, they would still be unlikely to
actually challenge Siriee without having first obtained the approval of
their own House (a challenge in the current circumstances would have
serious repercussions on the House in question).
Mind magic powerful enough to bypass the whole of this process would be too
powerful for the setting.
> The idea is that Harian might not try to fight Siriee himself, but to
> convince someone else that s/he has to fight his/her former friend
> Siriee, who is presented as a Bad Bad Person by Harian.
> This way, another duel would be much more interesting if Siriee does
> not know *why* her friend suddenly tries to ikll her and really does
> not want to kill him/her.
>
> Jörg
>
> [1] "being hit by a Mind Control Ray", OTOH, suddenly becomes much
> more interesting if one imagines a large, smelly, dripping sorcerous
> fish.
<GRIN> This is a really great image -- pulp sci-fi will never be the same
for me...
Thanks,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Definizione del giorno:
Devoto Holy: Nuovo Vocabolario Vaticano
Mary Gentle
(Thomas Lindgren) wrote:
Dunno about that. In the UK, at least, avoiding the tabloid press is just
regarded as perfectly natural and sensible. Avoiding a broadsheet
reporter or (more likely) a BBC interviewer might look bad, but not
legging it away from The Mail or The Sun.
Mary
Anna Mazzoldi
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:56:25 +0000, Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>
> wrote:
>>What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
>>undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
>>must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
>>Beyond that, anything would do, except that it would be most elegant if his
>>action was directed against _the Raven_ as much or more than against Siriee
>>as such.
>
> I'd start by thinking what things would be shameful, and quite easy to
> get caught at ... and then work out some reason why he might want to try
> one of those.
Yes, that could be a good way to go about the process. At the moment I've
got black magic, breach of hospitality, attempted (or successful) murder of
a non-warrior, poison, and breach of ritual taboos. (This is quite a wide
field to play in, particularly since ritual taboos can be provided at need
-- within reasonable limits!). The ones with the most obvious motivations
attached seem to be black magic (to get at the Raven) and breach of
hospitality (to get at Siriee outside her own house). Breach of taboo could
be easily involved as a side-effect (in fact, it would be an automatic
side-effect of both the preceding methods).
> I'm assuming that this late in the book, you'd want something really
> simple and clear-cut.
Something _quick_! ;-) Yes, I wouldn't want something _too_ involved; but
some complexity isn't ruled out -- as long as it can all play itself out
fairly rapidly.
> Whatever he tries, I don't suppose he could write an incriminating
> letter or diary or spell preparations or something?
'fraid not. Warriors in this society aren't a terribly literate bunch:
writing things down doesn't come natural to them.
> Then when he is
> caught and/or the document found, S or an ally could blackmail him to
> accept voluntary exile and/or let himself be thought guilty of something
> else instead. They might have the threat of revealing R's presence, but
> wouldn't have to really do it: H would give in.
>
> Whatever kind of spell he is trying, here are some possibilities....
>
> If access to S's house is a problem, how about H is trying to cast the
> spell from a private place of his own -- except that Raven catches him
> at it and manages to get someone else to 'coincidentally' show up and
> catch H in the act: perhaps some other enemy of H.
The Raven doesn't have a separate existence from Siriee at the moment: he
can only see what she sees, and can't go wandering on his own. But in any
case, I've now discovered that Harian _can_ get into Siriee's house...
> What sort of tokens from the victim does magic need? Suppose H is trying
> to collect S's hair or fingernail clippings or something, and falls into
> the cesspool at S's House and is pulled out by third parties and jailed
> for burglary? Maybe he's covered in muck and incoherent from landing on
> his head, so no one bails him out till he's spent the night in the drunk
> tank. Would that be shameful enough, regardless of what his spell was
> about? Again, R could be responsible for the 'coincidence' of the third
> parties coming along just then.
:-) That's a funny thought. I could make up as needed any specific
requirement for tokens, since black magic hasn't been discussed before in
the story. Being caught sneaking around in another House without having
entered by the main door would in fact be quite shameful enough regardless
of actual intent. Which in fact would solve some of my problems, wouldn't
it? It might just not sound dramatic enough from the _readers'_ point of
view, since they wouldn't have the same internalized sense of the sanctity
of a House that the characters have -- so maybe the intent itself would
have to be more recognizably shameful _for the readers_. Useful train of
thought, in any case.
> As to what kind of spell....
>
> You say rape doesn't happen. However, sex with a teacher is taboo.
> Suppose he tried to get Raven to leave S's body by means of himself
> having sex with S. The idea being that R would not want to stay in a
> body that had had sex with R's student.
Sorry, already happened ;-) The Raven didn't budge (though I'm sure he
didn't particularly like the experience -- but then neither did Siriee _or_
Harian, so I guess there's nothing strange there...)
> Depending on sexual customs and why there is no rape, some sort of
> attempted magical seduction/trickery/coercion of S might be considered
> shameful enough per se, even by people who do not know about Raven.
I'm not sure it would; sex is not as highly charged an area in this society
as it is in ours (which is in fact one of the reasons why rape doesn't
exists, though not the only one). But in any case, they've had sex, several
people have noticed, and nobody found it in the least strange or
objectionable.
> If sufficient shame requires the master-student taboo, then maybe H's
> attempt to have sex with Raven/S would be shame on H, if known.
It definitely would. But this would depend on public knowledge of the
possession _and_ of the fact that Harian knew about it when he "seduced"
Siriee.
Hm. At this point I feel obliged to insert a disclaimer. Having already
explicitly mentioned three separate lovers of different sexes for the
protagonist, the general lack of taboos and restrictions in this area, and
the fact that sex is no great deal in her society, I fear that someone
might be getting the wrong picture here... I will therefore add that there
is in fact _no_ explicit sex at all in the novel, and only a small amount
hinted at. I don't want to engage in false advertising!
> Other possibilities. Could R's connection be revealed or hinted only to
> one discreet elder in H's house, or perhaps a priest, whose word is
> sufficient to get H exiled?
This is actually a very real possibility, since the same thing has already
been done with a couple of elders in the Raven's house (for the purpose of
allowing Siriee access to some ritually reserved activities of that House
that fell to her because of the possession). It could be revealed by Siriee
and/or her allies for the purpose of convicting Harian, or it could be
revealed by Harian itself _before_ the act if he needs the elder's
assistence for his black magic (in this case the elder would be a shaman).
In the second case, though, the elder would be assumed to agree with Harian
-- but he might change his mind, either through sudden guild or through
seeing some details or consequences of the act that he/she hadn't foreseen
or hadn't been told of.
> If so, could R himself communicate directly
> with the elder? -- If so, this could hint at a nice new plot arc for
> next volume, about this formerly-minor-character elder who is now in a
> position to become a player.
It would, but unfortunately the Raven has no independent existence. Well --
actually, if the elder was a shaman, contact would be possible, but really
difficult right now: even the best shaman in the area is having trouble
getting near the Raven in the shadow world without getting burned, and the
Raven _likes_ him ;-)
Thanks for the comments and ideas,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Plato: "For the greater good."
Anna Mazzoldi
> In the spirit of a magic attack... he gets a *good* shaman/magic person
> to prepare an exorcism and that good person goes where he can't go... and
> he gets in far more trouble with his own people because of nearly
> causing this other good, revered, person to commit an evil act, than if
> he'd simply attacked her himself. The attack is clearly on Raven and he
> gets extra bad mojo for corrupting (or attempting to corrupt) an innocent.
The idea of involving an "innocent" shaman is quite tempting; but I'm not
sure the shaman could get involved without realizing that it was an "evil"
act. I may have misunderstood your suggestion though. What did you have in
mind? What would Harian tell the shaman, to convince them to do the job
without letting them know that it's actually "evil"?
--
Anna Mazzoldi
This is either very Zen, or I'm channelling Goldilocks.
-- Helen on rasfc
Anna Mazzoldi
> Is Harian a viewpoint character?
He is at one point in the novel. In fact, it's only for a couple of scenes,
though they are rather pivotal ones, and I'll have to consider whether that
works or not -- but that's a problem for another day ;-)
> It could as simple as "he tries to
> stab her in the back - he fails", if you show it from his POV and drag
> it out a bit. (Will I? Won't I? Is Raven watching? One blow and it's
> all over. Maybe she's in the same room with him and her back is turned
> and her hands are occupied. Maybe the opportunity keeps coming up and
> his nerve fails each time. Maybe he's agonizing over what to do. Try
> it and fail and he's a dead man. But surely, not even Raven could do
> anything about a knife in the back.)
This is an interesting possibility, and I like the bit about his nerve
failing several times. And of course, in this case there would only be
Siriee's word against his to incriminate him -- this may not be a bad
thing, depending on how I play it.
More problematic: Harian would have to be really desperate, because he
would know that if he succeeded he would almost certainly be discovered --
I can't imagine a way he could reliably set up things so that he'd be alone
in the same room with Siriee _and_ other people wouldn't be aware of it.
And while killing another warrior is not in itself a serious crime,
stabbing them in the back most definitely is.
> Maybe he's convinced that not
> even Raven would expect it from him. Maybe he's bought some sort of
> magic that's supposed neutralize Raven for a short period (the dead
> Raven from the shaman?).
That's a good point, and a good possible use for my poor dead bird.
> (For bonus marks, when it does happen,
> Siriee foils it in an heroic manner - reacting without Raven's help,
> for example).
In the nature of the possession, it's actually impossible to tell whether
the Raven is or isn't taking a hand in things -- even Siriee herself isn't
always sure. But that only means I don't get the bonus points, so it's not
a big problem... ;-)
>> What Harian does has to be "unforgivable" because I need it to be
>> undisputable that his life belongs to Siriee, and because his own House
>> must also consider his action shameful enough that they will exile him.
>
> How about something putting his House above himself? Say, he endangers
> people from his own House in his efforts to set up Siriee? The wrong
> person drinks from the poisoned cup, for example, or he deliberately
> thwarts Siriee when she does something to benefit his House as part of
> the reparations.
Yes, that would do it all right. At the moment, what I'm considering is a
breach of hospitality: the attack happens while Siriee is visiting his
House. The whole House is then shamed, and must clear that stain by taking
some action against Harian.
> I'm assuming that you want Harian as a villain. Do you want him to be
> redeemed at some later stage?
I want to leave that open, because that's how I believe people work. No
irredeemable villains in my world ;-). I have no definite plans, but it is
certainly possible that he will end up redeeming himself in Book 2. But I
want him to be definitely a villain at the end of Book 1, no particular
hints of future redemption.
> If so, another possibility would be for
> him to do something that shames him so much that he goes into exile
> without even being ordered to.
No, it wouldn't work, because at the moment he believes that by attacking
Siriee/the Raven he's actually doing the city _a service_. The way these
people are brought up, the city is the supreme good (it's also identified
with the nation/the race/the ancestors), followed closely by the House. The
individual is not considered very important, and this is even more true for
warriors, who in fact _start out_ by giving up their own life to the city
and House when they become warriors. So personal shame would/should not
stop him in acting for the greater good.
Sudden realization: this could actually work as a motivation for acting in
a way that would damage him personally, rather than desperation. He would
be sacrificing himself for the good of the city. (Never mind that "the
city" wouldn't see it that way at all, nemo propheta in patria and all
that...) Ooooh, this does open a whole new set of possibilities... why
didn't I think of it before?
> Maybe his House never even finds out
> the whole truth about it (except that he's dropped the demand for
> revenge). He's already got a whole bag of issues - envy, inferiority,
> fear, shame. Maybe he's about to do something terrible (against
> someone else, not Siriee) and Siriee stops him. Maybe Siriee saves
> _his_ life in a duel, repays the debt (as far as his House is
> concerned), and also tips his own shame/inferiority complex over the
> edge. cf Javert in Les Miserables.
This is something that could happen in Book 2, if the story goes that way,
but not in Book 1. I like the idea of Siriee stopping him doing something
terrible. Squirreled away for later perusal...
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Corazzattera (sf):
Nave da guerra del terzo mondo
Anna Mazzoldi
> First comment: his plan doesn't need to be very clever or have much
> chance of success, since the whole point is for him to get caught out.
> He could try to stab her in the back or poison her little brother or
> do evil voodoo that fails. Don't be more subtle than you need to.
This is very true, and a good reminder. Though he's not totally deranged,
and so would prefer a plan with some actual chances of working (at least
based on his own perception of things). Mainly, I suspect that the
_readers_ wouldn't like a plan that's too obviously doomed to failure!
> Second comment: an easy way for him to deliver a backhanded slap at
> the Raven is to himself violate the Raven's principles. Say the Raven
> preached against poisoning little brothers his whole life; then Harian
> gets caught trying to do exactly that; he announces that the Raven
> taught him everything he knows; and Siriee offers to cut his throat.
<G> Thanks for the image of the Raven preaching against poisoning little
brothers!
Apart from that... ;-) To be honest, Siriee has already been tempted to cut
his throat several times for shaming the Raven's memory by being such a
damned whining coward. But I suspect it wouldn't stand as an accusation
that _his House_ would consider shameful enough for serious punishment.
(Death is reserved for less serious offences.)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Bradiscisma (sm):
Scoppio violento di un profondo conflitto religioso
Eric Jarvis
>
> Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes:
>
> > > So, what was the press verdict?
> > >
> >
> > Two days of "looney left councillor's expenses binge" then they got bored.
> > No apologies, no corrections. Par for the course really.
>
> Well, in that case, I still think he or she should have made a press
> statement :-)
>
She did. First thing the local Labour Party did was draft a press release
and send it on the rounds. They didn't want a statement, they wanted an
ill judged snappy answer to leading questions yelled through the door.
This is the British press. Most of the newspapers have no interest in
news, they want controversy and scandal even if they have to entirely
manufacture it. When I was working as agent for an MP who resigned from
parliament I was phoned at 4.30am and asked by a reporter to make a
statement about it. When I was working on the London Mayoral election
campaign I was phoned by a paper to confirm or deny a ridiculous and
offensive rumour. I denied it, and the following day the paper printed
that a campaign spokesman had confirmed it.
There are only two rules with the British press when they are hot on the
heels of a story. Don't ever say more than one sentence except in a
written press release. Hire a PR consultant who knows all the newspaper
editors personally.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
all these years I've waited for the revolution
and all we end up getting is spin
R. L. Divergins
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nospam.com> wrote:
>In article <b00d4ca5.04010...@posting.google.com>,
> ju...@pascal.org (J.Pascal) wrote:
>
Friedman:
>> >The two people in my WIS who
>> > are shown as really talented at single combat are both women. And the
>> > one central feature of the book for which I have no historical warrant
>> > is the female military order they belong to.
>>
>> You have contraception?
>
>Not mentioned, probably not.
>
>> And does your female military order play
>> by mens rules or do they devise strategies to minimize the disadvantage of
>> being smaller?
>
>They fight largely as mounted archers--meaning that they move on
>horseback, shoot on foot--and also as light lancers. The men living in
>the same area fight largely as heavy lancers--loosely speaking, knights.
>
>Of the particular ladies in question, one is at least as tall as the
>average man, the other (her adult daughter) small but very fast and
>agile.
>
>> But what is better for a society? One warrior, or several? Every
>> child born is one more hand to hold a sword... or a plow. And the
>> bottleneck in producing babies is the limit on wombs.
>
>Or food to feed the babies.
Yes. Lactation is destiny. The society needn't be short of food, they
just need a belief that the real mother's milk is the healthiest food
for the first -- two years?
I think everything dominoes from that. With a nursing baby to protect,
one may as well take care of the rest of the young children also.
This might have different results in different societies. The women
might have the indoor jobs -- such as scholarship, drawing houseplans,
government....
>The Order represent a small minority of the adult population. And they
>aren't entirely out of reproduction--there are accepted customs for a
>member to take a recognized lover and have a child by him.
How long a maternity leave do they need?
David Friedman
R. L. Divergins <see...@nospam.comss> wrote:
> >> But what is better for a society? One warrior, or several? Every
> >> child born is one more hand to hold a sword... or a plow. And the
> >> bottleneck in producing babies is the limit on wombs.
> >
> >Or food to feed the babies.
>
> Yes. Lactation is destiny. The society needn't be short of food, they
> just need a belief that the real mother's milk is the healthiest food
> for the first -- two years?
I wasn't thinking of mother's milk. Food supply is in general a
constraint on population in pre-modern societies.
...
> >The Order represent a small minority of the adult population. And they
> >aren't entirely out of reproduction--there are accepted customs for a
> >member to take a recognized lover and have a child by him.
>
> How long a maternity leave do they need?
I doubt it's that formal. In ordinary circumstances the Order is
providing a certain amount of general protection--dealing with bandits
and the like--and training. Serious wars have been happening on the
order of every four or five years or so.
I do, however, have a reference to the issue. Elaina is the adult
daughter of Leonora, who has been Lady Commander of the Order for quite
a while. Harald is a very longtime friend (and ex-lover, from about
thirty years back) of Leonora, and was in overall command of the allied
army that included the Order during the campaigns of the past twenty
years. At the point when the passage occurs, Elaina doesn't realize who
Harald is and thinks he is older and feebler than he is (an impression
he has been encouraging in order to make it less likely that anyone will
guess his identity--helped by the fact that when he arrived at Forest
Keep he was only partly recovered from being nearly killed).
---
Dark. The mare saddled, loaded, waiting by the postern gate. Harald in
full armor. Hen, Yosef, the two Ladies. Elaina still arguing:
"A lot of them, it's a long way. I should ... ."
Harald tapped his quiver, gentled the mare.
"I was breaking legions when you were at your mother's breast, child.
Damn nuisance you were too." He led the mare out the postern into the
night, Elaina staring after him.
Anna Mazzoldi
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote in article <1u551qy4ttlrt.t...@40tude.net>:
>
>> Yes, pretty high indeed. The culture is quite different, though. Murder,
>> for a start, is defined very differently... wait a minute. The most
>> unforgivable thing (for a warrior) is killing someone who isn't a warrior.
>> If he went for one of Siriee's non-warrior relatives... But why would he?
>> (And I'd still prefer something connected to the Raven). As for rape, it
>> just doesn't happen. (There are good cultural reasons for that, trust me
>> ;-) These people aren't _quite_ human, though they come very close.)
>
> Can Harian set up some sort of ambush with a distance weapon such as a
> bow, in a dark enough night/alley that he thinks he can get away -- but
> it's too dark to see his victim clearly, and it's one of Siriee's
> non-warrier relatives instead of Siriee herself? And he gets caught
> red-handed?
Setting up the ambush, yes he can. However, if he can see well enough to
hit, he can tell whether someone is a warrior or not -- they dress rather
distinctively. A more likely mistake would be hitting a warrior from
another House entirely...
The idea of a distance-weapon ambush is good though. Again, a good example
of the kind of blinkers you get from "living" in the same story-world for
too long: it didn't occur to me, because Rys warriors don't use ranged
weapons. It is something that he could try, _and_ that would be considered
totally shameful. Also, it would be a weapon he's not well trained in, so
he could easily enough miss, or hit but not kill her. Which could be fun
;-)
Thanks!
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"La vita e' dura per chi ha un po' di verdura."
-- Stefano Benni, _Comici spaventati guerrieri_
Anna Mazzoldi
> In article <1u551qy4ttlrt.t...@40tude.net>, AnnaU...@iol.ie
> (Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> (The
>> nature of her possession is something that nobody in the story-world
>> has a
>> clear handle on yet, including Siriee herself. Even the junkie shaman
>> isn't
>> quite sure, and he's extremely close-mouthed anyway.)
>
> Just a very minor point -- you mentioned back up-thread that she fights
> left handed when she's possessed by the Raven. I take that to mean she
> normally fights right-handed. So, what explanation has she given for the
> sudden swap?
She hasn't, because nobody asked. If they did, she could say that the cut
she'd got on her right arm was hurting badly. It wasn't -- not enough to
justify swapping hands -- but they don't know...
(As for herself, she knows what's going on; she's very uncomfortable with
it, but doesn't tell herself stories about it.)
[I realize now, after finishing the answer, that your question was probably
more general, and I've only talked about this latest duel. In fact, this is
the only time this hand-swap has been noticed by people who are still in a
position to ask questions. Just to lessen the impression of needless,
mindless slaughter, it hasn't actually happened that many times... ;-)]
> I wouldn't automatically think 'possession' (unless it was a prominent
> part of that culture), but if I knew her, I would think WTF? about her
> changing handedness.
A lot of people thought WTF?, not just at the swap but also at the sudden
change of fighting style (which is commented on in the story from the point
of view of a Noisse warrior in the "audience"). In fact, the swap by itself
wouldn't have caused much perplexity, since the wound on her right arm was
visibly bleeding (while the fact that it was basically a scratch wasn't as
obvious).
Mostly, they haven't asked her about it because (1) on the whole, they
assumed it must have been "the mysterious powers of the Raven's sword"
(which in fact does nothing of the kind, but it's a common belief at this
point in the story) -- the guy she ended up killing in this duel was known
to be marked for the Raven's own revenge; (2) after the duel, Siriee walked
away with a definite don't-talk-to-me look on her face, and you don't ask
akward questions to someone who's just slit someone else's throat fighting
with her off-hand if they look like they don't want to talk; and (3) these
days, she generally projects an aura that discourages idle questions about
fighting technique... ;-)
Thanks for the comment though! I was quite proud to find out that I _did_
in fact have an answer...
[Quote from the end of the duel:
"She looked around at the crowd, shouting and cheering, and to her right,
where several of her brothers and mothers stood behind Harian Selethima,
quieter than the others. She shifted her sword to her right hand –- only
then realising that she had been holding it in her left. Her right arm was
wounded, but she didn’t feel the pain. Why then?"]
--
Anna Mazzoldi
"He must be very ignorant,
for he answers every question he's asked"
sharkey
>
> Just a very minor point -- you mentioned back up-thread that she fights
> left handed when she's possessed by the Raven. I take that to mean she
> normally fights right-handed. So, what explanation has she given for the
> sudden swap?
Possession by Inigo Montoya ... "I'm not really left-handed either" ...
------sharks (sorry)
Mary Gentle
(Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:21 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Mary Gentle wrote:
>
> > In article <1u551qy4ttlrt.t...@40tude.net>,
> > AnnaU...@iol.ie (Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> (The
> >> nature of her possession is something that nobody in the story-world
> >> has a
> >> clear handle on yet, including Siriee herself. Even the junkie
> > shaman >isn't
> >> quite sure, and he's extremely close-mouthed anyway.)
> >
> > Just a very minor point -- you mentioned back up-thread that she
> > fights left handed when she's possessed by the Raven. I take that to
> > mean she normally fights right-handed. So, what explanation has she
> > given for the sudden swap?
>
> She hasn't, because nobody asked. If they did, she could say that the
> cut
> she'd got on her right arm was hurting badly. It wasn't -- not enough to
> justify swapping hands -- but they don't know...
I've read further down, but this is a general point, so I'll make it here.
Depending on the people watching (and this is a warrior audience, or a
warrior society?), there will be questions. Provided you plug the holes
with answers, that's not a problem.
> (As for herself, she knows what's going on; she's very uncomfortable
> with
> it, but doesn't tell herself stories about it.)
>
> [I realize now, after finishing the answer, that your question was
> probably
> more general, and I've only talked about this latest duel. In fact,
> this is
> the only time this hand-swap has been noticed by people who are still
> in a
> position to ask questions. Just to lessen the impression of needless,
> mindless slaughter, it hasn't actually happened that many times... ;-)]
Shame. :)
A lot of it's going to depend on how ambidextrous a fighting style people
have, and how much they're given to training with their off hand, and in
what combinations.
E.g. if you fight sword and dagger with the sword in the right hand,
fighting a dagger fight left _or_ right won't be remarkable, but fighting
with your sword in the left hand may be cause for comment - especially if
it's an asymmetric weapon. In the case of some very asymmetric weapons,
you're screwed unless you have one specifically made for left-hand use.
>
> > I wouldn't automatically think 'possession' (unless it was a
> > prominent part of that culture), but if I knew her, I would think
> > WTF? about her changing handedness.
>
> A lot of people thought WTF?, not just at the swap but also at the
> sudden
> change of fighting style (which is commented on in the story from the
> point
> of view of a Noisse warrior in the "audience"). In fact, the swap by
> itself
> wouldn't have caused much perplexity, since the wound on her right arm
> was
> visibly bleeding (while the fact that it was basically a scratch wasn't
> as
> obvious).
Actually, it might - it isn't always as easy using a sword in your off
hand as you might think. I know some people who can't do it; they're
hard-wired enough that I think they'd still fritz it up if their lives
/did/ depend on it.
Like I say, I'd expect someone to notice her using her off hand _as well_
_or better than_ the hand she normally uses. Or even, than the hand the
culture considers the sword-hand.
>
> Mostly, they haven't asked her about it because (1) on the whole, they
> assumed it must have been "the mysterious powers of the Raven's sword"
> (which in fact does nothing of the kind, but it's a common belief at
> this
> point in the story) -- the guy she ended up killing in this duel was
> known
> to be marked for the Raven's own revenge; (2) after the duel, Siriee
> walked
> away with a definite don't-talk-to-me look on her face, and you don't
> ask
> akward questions to someone who's just slit someone else's throat
> fighting
> with her off-hand if they look like they don't want to talk; and (3)
> these
> days, she generally projects an aura that discourages idle questions
> about
> fighting technique... ;-)
Bet you money there are sword-bunnies in her audience who won't be put off
asking questions by anything short of bouncing-head-type decapitation. <g>
Anyhow, you got me curious, now -- /does/ the culture have asymmetric
weapons? If she's wearing The Raven's sword, as well as thinking of its
"mystic powers", will they be thinking, Hmm, she's using a left-hand
sword?
> Thanks for the comment though! I was quite proud to find out that I
> _did_
> in fact have an answer...
Heh. :)
> [Quote from the end of the duel:
> "She looked around at the crowd, shouting and cheering, and to her
> right,
> where several of her brothers and mothers stood behind Harian Selethima,
> quieter than the others. She shifted her sword to her right hand ĄV-
> only
> then realising that she had been holding it in her left. Her right arm
> was
> wounded, but she didnĄŚt feel the pain. Why then?"]
I think, too, she'd realise she's been not only holding but _using_ it in
her left. Which, depending on how good/not good she knows she is at that
particular skill, may give her even more cause for head-scratching.
Mary
Anna Mazzoldi
Both the audience and the society contain a fair number of warriors, so I
suppose the answer is yes. I take the general point, in any case -- which
is why I'm now going to ask some more questions...
>> (As for herself, she knows what's going on; she's very uncomfortable
>> with
>> it, but doesn't tell herself stories about it.)
>>
>> [I realize now, after finishing the answer, that your question was
>> probably
>> more general, and I've only talked about this latest duel. In fact,
>> this is
>> the only time this hand-swap has been noticed by people who are still
>> in a
>> position to ask questions. Just to lessen the impression of needless,
>> mindless slaughter, it hasn't actually happened that many times... ;-)]
>
> Shame. :)
>
> A lot of it's going to depend on how ambidextrous a fighting style people
> have, and how much they're given to training with their off hand, and in
> what combinations.
>
> E.g. if you fight sword and dagger with the sword in the right hand,
> fighting a dagger fight left _or_ right won't be remarkable, but fighting
> with your sword in the left hand may be cause for comment - especially if
> it's an asymmetric weapon. In the case of some very asymmetric weapons,
> you're screwed unless you have one specifically made for left-hand use.
I'll start with a disclaimer. I don't know much about sword-fighting -- my
personal experience is limited to fencing epee, and I'm reading up on the
subject but that's no real substitute for actual first- or even second-hand
experience, at least for me. I have a fairly strong "feeling" for how my
protag fights (meaning that I get a fairly detailed not-quite-movie in my
head -- more moving volumes than detailed pictures, if you see what I
mean), but I'm also aware of my lack of actual knowledge, and therefore I'm
prepared to find out where I'm going unacceptably wrong and change the
"movie" as needed. I was planning to go over the fighting stuff in second
draft, but I have nothing against finding out some stuff now!
I remember having a discussion about this a while ago. She does in fact
train with swapped weapons -- a relatively common thing to do in her
culture, and something she's quite good at because she's not strongly
right-handed (I suspect I made her this way unthinkingly just because
that's the way I am too, so it comes more natural to my imagination. But it
is quite convenient...). Her normal fighting style would be
sword-and-dagger, with sword in her right hand. She also does sword only,
and she practices with swapped hands in both combinations.
One question would be this. In the movie in my head, when she's using only
the sword she occasionally swaps it to her left hand for one stroke
(starting from a two-handed grip). Now, I haven't put this in the story
because I'm very doubtful about its actual plausibility, but she insists on
doing that when I visualize her fights ;-). So, would this be a possible
move, given a katana-like sword that is routinely used both one-handed and
two-handed?
The next question is about what counts as a "very asymmetric weapon" in
this context. Would a katana qualify? This is what the local swords look
like in my imagination: and it's certainly asymmetric, but it's also a
"bastard" sword, so maybe it wouldn't pose a real problem in this context.
I don't like messing with the details in my "mental movie" too much, so I'm
hoping to find that she _can_ use a katana-like sword that way: but using
the dead guy's sword is more important to the story than the exact shape of
the sword in question, so if I can't have a katana I'll settle for a
different shape (the only _really_ important thing is that it has to be a
cutting weapon, not a thrust-only sword -- that would mess up my mental
movie completely!).
>>> I wouldn't automatically think 'possession' (unless it was a
>>> prominent part of that culture), but if I knew her, I would think
>>> WTF? about her changing handedness.
>>
>> A lot of people thought WTF?, not just at the swap but also at the
>> sudden
>> change of fighting style (which is commented on in the story from the
>> point
>> of view of a Noisse warrior in the "audience"). In fact, the swap by
>> itself
>> wouldn't have caused much perplexity, since the wound on her right arm
>> was
>> visibly bleeding (while the fact that it was basically a scratch wasn't
>> as
>> obvious).
>
> Actually, it might - it isn't always as easy using a sword in your off
> hand as you might think. I know some people who can't do it; they're
> hard-wired enough that I think they'd still fritz it up if their lives
> /did/ depend on it.
Yes, I'm aware of it. It took me a long time to find out that most other
people were more strongly right- or left-handed than me, but I did
eventually learn the lesson... But as I said, I've conveniently made my
protag as weakly "sided" as I am. ;-) Certainly, many of the people who
watched this duel had seen her _practice_ left-handed. (For people without
TV, watching Siriee practice can be an entertaining way to spend an
afternoon...)
> Like I say, I'd expect someone to notice her using her off hand _as well_
> _or better than_ the hand she normally uses. Or even, than the hand the
> culture considers the sword-hand.
Fair enough. It may be a good idea to add a further comment about this
somewhere, then.
>> Mostly, they haven't asked her about it because (1) on the whole, they
>> assumed it must have been "the mysterious powers of the Raven's sword"
>> (which in fact does nothing of the kind, but it's a common belief at
>> this
>> point in the story) -- the guy she ended up killing in this duel was
>> known
>> to be marked for the Raven's own revenge; (2) after the duel, Siriee
>> walked
>> away with a definite don't-talk-to-me look on her face, and you don't
>> ask
>> akward questions to someone who's just slit someone else's throat
>> fighting
>> with her off-hand if they look like they don't want to talk; and (3)
>> these
>> days, she generally projects an aura that discourages idle questions
>> about
>> fighting technique... ;-)
>
> Bet you money there are sword-bunnies in her audience who won't be put off
> asking questions by anything short of bouncing-head-type decapitation. <g>
I'll take your word for it then -- I've never been much of a sword-bunny...
;-)
(Bouncing-head-type decapitation is actually planned for chapter 20.
However, it's nothing to do with people asking technical questions...)
> Anyhow, you got me curious, now -- /does/ the culture have asymmetric
> weapons? If she's wearing The Raven's sword, as well as thinking of its
> "mystic powers", will they be thinking, Hmm, she's using a left-hand
> sword?
Indeed. This is why my question about the meaning of "asymmetric" earlier
on is so important -- if it was only about swapping hands while possessed I
could wriggle out of it in several different ways: but this is the sword
she uses all the time, _in her right hand_. How much difference does a
left-hand katana really make? Is it at all plausible, and if so, what
should I be aware of? Or is there some way that it can be made more
plausible?
>> [Quote from the end of the duel:
>> "She looked around at the crowd, shouting and cheering, and to her
>> right,
>> where several of her brothers and mothers stood behind Harian Selethima,
>> quieter than the others. She shifted her sword to her right hand ¡V-
>> only
>> then realising that she had been holding it in her left. Her right arm
>> was
>> wounded, but she didn¡¦t feel the pain. Why then?"]
>
> I think, too, she'd realise she's been not only holding but _using_ it in
> her left. Which, depending on how good/not good she knows she is at that
> particular skill, may give her even more cause for head-scratching.
Er, yes. She does realise that -- it's kind of implied by the fact that
she's just finished killing a guy with it, but of course I didn't post the
part of the scene where she does that.
And the "why" at the end isn't really head-scratching: it's just her final,
weak attempt to deny what she actually _knows_ is going on. This is the
next bit of the scene[1] (and also the end of the message, you can safely
skip it and press "N" now...):
[First some creepy (and rather gross) supernatural-looking stuff involving
a (live, real) raven happens. Then:]
"Is this what you wanted to know?" said a voice in Sirieë's ear, startling
her out of her composure and catching the breath in her throat. She spun
around to see who had spoken. "Is this why you accepted this challenge?"
There was nobody there. There couldn't have been. It was the voice of a
dead man.
She looked around to see if anybody else had heard it. Harian Selethima was
looking at her as if _she_ was a ghost, and Reite was looking at her too,
and Horyal, and others... But no, they hadn’t heard it.
"Do you have your answer now?" said the voice of Aynear Fhueisart, clear
and hard and unmistakable. "You were never one to delay action, or to worry
a choice like a bone. How long will you wait?"
[Ah: Aynear is what the Raven is actually called.]
Sirieë closed her eyes, breathed slowly, and turned back to face the
gathered Noissë. Yes, she had her answer. She cleaned the blade of her
sword -- the sword of the Raven -- to buy time while her head stopped
spinning, and her legs started responding steadily again. She did have her
answer, and the time to speak would be soon. But first she had to finish
what she had started.
[1] I beg everybody's pardon for posting all the snippets. I suspect
they're largely irrelevant, and they're not for critique either since
they're all first-draft stuff, but their real function is a further attempt
at getting me back to _writing_ the thing. I trust that this justification
will be considered valid by everybody on this newsgroup... ;-)
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Who is this General Failure
and why is he reading my hard drive?
sharkey
>
> Setting up the ambush, yes he can. However, if he can see well enough to
> hit, he can tell whether someone is a warrior or not -- they dress rather
> distinctively.
Or he could ...
> The idea of a distance-weapon ambush is good though. Again, a good example
> of the kind of blinkers you get from "living" in the same story-world for
> too long: it didn't occur to me, because Rys warriors don't use ranged
> weapons. It is something that he could try, _and_ that would be considered
> totally shameful. Also, it would be a weapon he's not well trained in, so
> he could easily enough miss, or hit but not kill her. Which could be fun
> ;-)
... miss a warrior and kill a civvie (thus reinforcing the taboo
against distance weapons, and making it much more likely that it'll
be taken seriously ...
-----sharks (maybe)
Anna Mazzoldi
You're an evil person. I had to google for the reference because I haven't
read the book (I probably should) _or_ seen the movie, but _then_ I had to
go and get a glass of water just to stop gasping for breath...
...possession by Inigo Montoya, indeed! <HG>
--
Anna Mazzoldi
Cazzandra (sf): Profetessa che non ne indovina una
R. L.
>Sayeth Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>:
>>
>> Setting up the ambush, yes he can. However, if he can see well enough to
>> hit, he can tell whether someone is a warrior or not -- they dress rather
>> distinctively.
>
>Or he could ...
An ambush at the swimming pond, or bath? Multiple-ly dishonorable,
catching someone without weapons or clothes.... S and a
girlfriend/relative go to bathe together, he blunders and shoots the
girlfriend (not serious injury, but enough to get him in big
trouble)....
Add inhospitality, if it happens on his House's territory, and perhaps S
and her friend/relative were invited....
Or shame of intrusion, if he sneaks into S's house to do this in their
bath chamber. (Then can he try to hide in the garderobe and fall in the
cess pool, please? :-)
>> The idea of a distance-weapon ambush is good though. Again, a good example
>> of the kind of blinkers you get from "living" in the same story-world for
>> too long: it didn't occur to me, because Rys warriors don't use ranged
>> weapons. It is something that he could try, _and_ that would be considered
>> totally shameful. Also, it would be a weapon he's not well trained in, so
>> he could easily enough miss, or hit but not kill her. Which could be fun
>> ;-)
>
>... miss a warrior and kill a civvie (thus reinforcing the taboo
>against distance weapons, and making it much more likely that it'll
>be taken seriously ...
Yes. And getting a whole new set of authorities involved.... Not that
you'd have to play this out in detail, the actual scene could just be
talk wth the Elder who might exile him, and news comes in about the
weapons-control people looking for him too, so that is the deciding
factor.
J.Pascal
I had been thinking that the shaman might be lead to believe that
someone needed saving from an evil possession... kind of like
kidnapping
a person back from a cult in attitude... this person *can't* ask for
help
so we're going to force it on him. But I couldn't begin to say if
that
would work in your world. What I liked about it was the "corrupting
an innocent" idea. Maybe that could be used in some other way. It
just seems
like the sort of thing that would tip something over from criminal to
morally reprehensible. He can choose to do bad things but bringing in
someone else
who has no chance or ability to choose but who's soul will be equally
destroyed by the act (provided sould destroying is an issue) is
damning
someone else. So he gets the punishment for the attempted crime and
he gets
the even worse punishment for damning another human being.
David Friedman
significantly different from a left handed one.
2. Switching among two handed, right handed and left handed grip seems a
bit odd to me, unless the dominant arm gets crippled during the fight,
but not impossible. You might consider that the normal two handed grip
has one hand just below the guard, the other below that. If you let go
with the lower hand, the upper is in the position you probably want for
fighting one handed. If you let go with the upper, the lower isn't.
Of course, your almost ambidextrous and very good fighter might switch
which is the upper and which the lower hand when fighting two handed.
Anna Mazzoldi
I think that might be overkill. No pun intended. No, really!
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains.
Anna Mazzoldi
> On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:17:18 GMT, sharkey <sha...@zoic.org> wrote:
>
>>Sayeth Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie>:
>>>
>>> Setting up the ambush, yes he can. However, if he can see well enough to
>>> hit, he can tell whether someone is a warrior or not -- they dress rather
>>> distinctively.
>>
>>Or he could ...
>
> An ambush at the swimming pond, or bath? Multiple-ly dishonorable,
> catching someone without weapons or clothes.... S and a
> girlfriend/relative go to bathe together, he blunders and shoots the
> girlfriend (not serious injury, but enough to get him in big
> trouble)....
Unlikely, given the lack of swimming ponds or baths. Baths happen in one's
own house, on the whole, and tend to consist of a brisk swim in the sea
followed by a couple of buckets of fresh water. Builds moral character,
especially around winter solstice.
> Add inhospitality, if it happens on his House's territory, and perhaps S
> and her friend/relative were invited....
A swimming-pool party! ...nah, they haven't invented cocktails yet.
> Or shame of intrusion, if he sneaks into S's house to do this in their
> bath chamber. (Then can he try to hide in the garderobe and fall in the
> cess pool, please? :-)
<G> Do you think I should add a cesspool scene? There are none in the novel
at the moment. But once he gets into her house, going specifically for the
bathroom would seem a bit contrived. It would be easier to catch her moving
between buildings, or in her own bedroom. (And no, he can't shoot the
person she's sleeping with instead, because she isn't sleeping with
anybody. But I get the feeling that stabbing her while she's asleep, at
which point she'll have to wake up and amazingly foil his attempt because I
still need her alive in the next chapter, might be a bit cliche'd.)
Maybe he can still blunder into the cesspool while he's looking for her
bedroom... ;-)
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
"Why did the chicken cross the road?"
Machiavelli: "So that its subjects will view it with admiration, as
a chicken which has the daring and courage to boldly cross the
road, but also with fear, for whom among them has the strength
to contend with such a paragon of avian virtue? In such a manner
is the princely chicken's dominion maintained."
Anna Mazzoldi
> In <wvj8l50s72vq.cyqq90237cay$.d...@40tude.net>, Anna Mazzoldi
> <AnnaU...@iol.ie> onsendan:
>> One question would be this. In the movie in my head, when she's using
>> only the sword she occasionally swaps it to her left hand for one
>> stroke (starting from a two-handed grip). Now, I haven't put this in
>> the story because I'm very doubtful about its actual plausibility, but
>> she insists on doing that when I visualize her fights ;-). So, would
>> this be a possible move, given a katana-like sword that is routinely
>> used both one-handed and two-handed?
>
> Sure; that's even fairly standard, if (typically) more flashy than
> sensible.
Cool! It's nice when I find that my subconscious is more sensible than my
conscious (or at least more flashy...) It's not the first time that this
happens.
> Like starting a fight by kicking the other fellow in the head, it's not
> a guesture of respect.
That's neat too. Being politely insulting is just the kind of thing she
would go for. In gestures if at all possible.
> I'm fairly sure the assymetry Mary is talking about is mostly in hilt
> construction, and it's something weapons meant to be used two handed
> *cannot* have. Things with basket hilts, on the other hand, can have it
> to the point where you can't get the other bend direction of hand in
> there at all.
And this is a great relief. It's what I thought, but I got worried that
asymmetric _blade_ construction could come into play too. I'm glad that I
don't have to rethink my image of the swords these people use.
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
Cornitologo (sm):
Etologo che studia l'adulterio tra uccelli
Celyn Armstrong
<lots of snippage>
> I remember having a discussion about this a while ago. She does in fact
> train with swapped weapons -- a relatively common thing to do in her
> culture, and something she's quite good at because she's not strongly
> right-handed (I suspect I made her this way unthinkingly just because
> that's the way I am too, so it comes more natural to my imagination. But it
> is quite convenient...). Her normal fighting style would be
> sword-and-dagger, with sword in her right hand. She also does sword only,
> and she practices with swapped hands in both combinations.
>
> One question would be this. In the movie in my head, when she's using only
> the sword she occasionally swaps it to her left hand for one stroke
> (starting from a two-handed grip). Now, I haven't put this in the story
> because I'm very doubtful about its actual plausibility, but she insists on
> doing that when I visualize her fights ;-). So, would this be a possible
> move, given a katana-like sword that is routinely used both one-handed and
> two-handed?
I would have thought, given the background you mention, that this
might well be a plausible move, although a risky one, especially in a
fight that lasts for more than a few exchanges of strokes. I could
imagine the opponent getting used to the strokes coming predominently
from his left (especially if he uses a shield, but even if he
doesn't). A sudden switch to a left handed stroke coming from his
right might unbalance him. (From memory, Paul's opponent in _Dune_
after Paul and Jessica meets the Fremen tries somethihg similar -
obviously a knife fight is different, but it certainly seemed
plausible there.)
The problem is that it would be a bit fiddly to effect the transfer
smoothly and quickly -- even from a two handed grip she would
presumably need to swap hands, so that the left was the top hand, ie
nearer the hilt? (Guessing here - like you I have a little experience
of epee fencing and that's it.) At worst she could drop her sword -
disaster! Although from what you say she spends a lot of time
practising, so she could have worked out how to do it properly.
I would see it as a very occasional move, relying on surprise to be
effective.
Celyn
Anna Mazzoldi
> 1. A katana is effectively symmetrical--a right handed one wouldn't be
> significantly different from a left handed one.
Great! Thank you.
> 2. Switching among two handed, right handed and left handed grip seems a
> bit odd to me, unless the dominant arm gets crippled during the fight,
> but not impossible. You might consider that the normal two handed grip
> has one hand just below the guard, the other below that. If you let go
> with the lower hand, the upper is in the position you probably want for
> fighting one handed. If you let go with the upper, the lower isn't.
I'll keep this in mind. If I decide to let her do this in writing, I'll
also get myself an appropriately-shaped stick and do a bit of hands-on
experimentation.
> Of course, your almost ambidextrous and very good fighter might switch
> which is the upper and which the lower hand when fighting two handed.
I suspect that _if_ she actually does do this in fights, then there will be
a couple of specific moves for it (most likely not her own invention, since
ambidexterity is encouraged), and she will practice them with her other
stuff.
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language
is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't
just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle
their pockets for new vocabulary."
-- James Nicoll, rasfw
Brian Pickrell
> On 5 Jan 2004 20:16:54 -0800, Brian Pickrell wrote:
>
> > First comment: his plan doesn't need to be very clever or have much
> > chance of success, since the whole point is for him to get caught out.
> > He could try to stab her in the back or poison her little brother or
> > do evil voodoo that fails. Don't be more subtle than you need to.
>
> This is very true, and a good reminder. Though he's not totally deranged,
> and so would prefer a plan with some actual chances of working (at least
> based on his own perception of things). Mainly, I suspect that the
> _readers_ wouldn't like a plan that's too obviously doomed to failure!
How public does the confrontation have to be? If you want his own
people to disown him, isn't it better for him to embarrass them in
public than to get involved in some greivous, but private, sin during
an assassination attempt as others are suggesting?
Is there a way they could confront each other in the streets, but
instead of settling it with one more knife fight or duel, he ducks out
of the fight with loud crying and whining? As you say, his own
perception of things: if he feels aggrieved, a chance to complain and
feel sorry for himself in public might be a success by his lights.
Plus, it avoids a fight he can't win.
Mary Gentle
celynar...@yahoo.co.uk (Celyn Armstrong) wrote:
[...]
> The problem is that it would be a bit fiddly to effect the transfer
> smoothly and quickly -- even from a two handed grip she would
> presumably need to swap hands, so that the left was the top hand, ie
> nearer the hilt? (Guessing here - like you I have a little experience
> of epee fencing and that's it.) At worst she could drop her sword -
> disaster!
[...]
It's always possible. :)
What I've tended to find is that I'll swap, not two hands on the hilt, but
from a single right hand grip over to a single left hand grip. Much less
chance of fluffing it. (Whether this is what happens in a real fight is
anybody's guess.)
With a bastard weapon like the one Anna's describing, it gets a lot of
its advantage from the combined ability for single- and double-handed use.
So you don't /need/ to spend a lot of time with both hands gripping the
hilt, unless it's useful for a particular strike.
Mary
Mary Gentle
dd...@daviddfriedman.nospam.com (David Friedman) wrote:
[...]
> 2. Switching among two handed, right handed and left handed grip seems
> a bit odd to me, unless the dominant arm gets crippled during the
> fight, but not impossible.
[...]
It's very cool for getting just that little bit extra reach, if your
dominant hand isn't in the better position. As well as the moments where
it's easier to bring your weapon across your body and strike, than spin or
otherwise move body-plus-right-hand around into position.
Mary
Mary Gentle
(Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
<lots snipped>
>
> I'll start with a disclaimer. I don't know much about sword-fighting --
> my
> personal experience is limited to fencing epee, and I'm reading up on
> the
> subject but that's no real substitute for actual first- or even
> second-hand
> experience, at least for me.
Well, all I can give you is 'exercises', and some study of
Renaissance fencing manuals; it's not like I know how to kill somebody
with one of these pointy things. :)
(Well, no, that's not true; I do know how - I just don't have the ability
or the desire to do it.)
>I have a fairly strong "feeling" for how my
> protag fights (meaning that I get a fairly detailed not-quite-movie in
> my
> head -- more moving volumes than detailed pictures, if you see what I
> mean), but I'm also aware of my lack of actual knowledge, and therefore
> I'm
> prepared to find out where I'm going unacceptably wrong and change the
> "movie" as needed. I was planning to go over the fighting stuff in
> second
> draft, but I have nothing against finding out some stuff now!
>
> I remember having a discussion about this a while ago. She does in fact
> train with swapped weapons -- a relatively common thing to do in her
> culture, and something she's quite good at because she's not strongly
> right-handed (I suspect I made her this way unthinkingly just because
> that's the way I am too, so it comes more natural to my imagination.
> But it
> is quite convenient...). Her normal fighting style would be
> sword-and-dagger, with sword in her right hand. She also does sword
> only,
> and she practices with swapped hands in both combinations.
If they train with swapped weapons, that's good; that means, presumably,
that we're conscious of this going on in the background?
>
> One question would be this. In the movie in my head, when she's using
> only
> the sword she occasionally swaps it to her left hand for one stroke
> (starting from a two-handed grip). Now, I haven't put this in the story
> because I'm very doubtful about its actual plausibility, but she
> insists on
> doing that when I visualize her fights ;-). So, would this be a possible
> move, given a katana-like sword that is routinely used both one-handed
> and
> two-handed?
Not only is it plausible, I've done it (in practise, obviously), both with
a katana, and with a 15th century European sword. My experience is that
when you're using a weapon like that 'two-handed', two handed is shorthand
for some two-handed-grip blows, some right hand blows, and some left hand
blows. (Assuming that you are trained to use a sword in your left hand,
and that it's of a nature where it can be swapped around -- with a katana,
you're fine.)
Maybe you should listen to her. :)
>
> The next question is about what counts as a "very asymmetric weapon" in
> this context. Would a katana qualify? This is what the local swords look
> like in my imagination: and it's certainly asymmetric, but it's also a
> "bastard" sword, so maybe it wouldn't pose a real problem in this
> context.
Yes, I suppose a katana is a bastard sword; I hadn't really moved the
terminology over in my head. :)
A katana isn't asymmetric at all, in that sense, because you can grip the
(slight) curve of the hilt in your left hand same as you can in your
right. Ditto with the cross-hilt European swords. The problem with
symmetry comes with things like rapiers -- the 'front' of the guards that
protect your hand are different from the guards at the back. It can,
depending on how many rings and bars there are, be difficult to impossible
to swap it over to your other hand.
They used to make what they called 'a case of rapiers', with one set up
for right hand fighting, and one for left hand fighting. Supposedly,
these were for fighting with a rapier in each hand -- but I'm doubtful
about that for the longer lengths; what you can do at 34" inches is way
difficult at 48" . . .
But, anyhow, this isn't your problem. You can happily swap a katana-like
weapon from right to left and back again. I take it the dagger is a
wakazashi-type thing? Or is it shorter?
> I don't like messing with the details in my "mental movie" too much, so
> I'm
> hoping to find that she _can_ use a katana-like sword that way: but
> using
> the dead guy's sword is more important to the story than the exact
> shape of
> the sword in question, so if I can't have a katana I'll settle for a
> different shape (the only _really_ important thing is that it has to be
> a
> cutting weapon, not a thrust-only sword -- that would mess up my mental
> movie completely!).
With the exception of the 18th century and on, there's doubt about any
'thrust-only' swords existing. (And by the 18th century, the sword is a
formalised weapon, not a weapon of war.) People tended, naturally, to
want the advantage of cut and thrust.
Even for people with TV (she said, thinking of having done very similar
things). I like watching sword practice. :)
Actually, I don't think it's quite the same as being strongly or weakly
-sided . . . There's something about what happens when you're combining
weapons that you need to be able to do regardless of handedness; I just
wish I could explain it better. Maybe it's something to do with
footedness -- I'm assuming you've got them similarly weakly sided with
regard to feet? (If you're talking sword and dagger fighting, it doesn't
help if your dagger hand and lead foot don't end up where they ought to be
in regard to each other, at certain times.)
[...]
> > Anyhow, you got me curious, now -- /does/ the culture have asymmetric
> > weapons? If she's wearing The Raven's sword, as well as thinking of
> > its "mystic powers", will they be thinking, Hmm, she's using a
> > left-hand sword?
>
> Indeed. This is why my question about the meaning of "asymmetric"
> earlier
> on is so important -- if it was only about swapping hands while
> possessed I
> could wriggle out of it in several different ways: but this is the sword
> she uses all the time, _in her right hand_. How much difference does a
> left-hand katana really make? Is it at all plausible, and if so, what
> should I be aware of? Or is there some way that it can be made more
> plausible?
If you've got a katana, actually the answer to the question is no, they
won't think she's using a left hand sword, because it would be
indistinguishable from a right hand sword. (I wish I could show you a
swept-hilt rapier, but at that they don't usually photograph the back of
the hilt for catalogues -- if you're over in London at any time, I'll take
you round the Wallace Collection.)
>
<snip fragment>
Yeah, that was cool. :) Is this one of the cultures that make a thing out
of cleaning their swords, by the way -- Japanese oil of cloves type thing?
Mary
Mary Gentle
(sharkey) wrote:
<snicker>
That really is one of the world's great swordfights . . .
Mary
David Friedman
mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote:
> Not only is it plausible, I've done it (in practise, obviously), both with
> a katana, and with a 15th century European sword. My experience is that
> when you're using a weapon like that 'two-handed', two handed is shorthand
> for some two-handed-grip blows, some right hand blows, and some left hand
> blows. (Assuming that you are trained to use a sword in your left hand,
> and that it's of a nature where it can be swapped around -- with a katana,
> you're fine.)
Full weight weapon? Did you slide the lower hand up to the guard when
you were using it single handedly with what had been the lower (probably
left) hand? I would have thought the shift would be a little clumsy, at
least if you are doing it in the course of an attack.
I guess I can see it for a full extension left handed thrust, although I
don't think I would try such a thing.
> With the exception of the 18th century and on, there's doubt about any
> 'thrust-only' swords existing.
Estoc?
> Actually, I don't think it's quite the same as being strongly or weakly
> -sided . . . There's something about what happens when you're combining
> weapons that you need to be able to do regardless of handedness; I just
> wish I could explain it better. Maybe it's something to do with
> footedness -- I'm assuming you've got them similarly weakly sided with
> regard to feet? (If you're talking sword and dagger fighting, it doesn't
> help if your dagger hand and lead foot don't end up where they ought to be
> in regard to each other, at certain times.)
Sword and shield is a particularly clear case. In closed form, which is
how I learned, you are shield side on to your opponent. So reversing
hands also means a nearly 180 degree rotation of the body--from left
side towards the opponent to right side towards the opponent.
...
> If you've got a katana, actually the answer to the question is no, they
> won't think she's using a left hand sword, because it would be
> indistinguishable from a right hand sword.
Well ... . There is the little thing wrapped into the grip--I forget
its name--which I suppose gives a bulge on one side that is relevant to
the grip. And there is the small knife or the thing that looks like a
pair of chopsticks but isn't that's mounted on one side of the scabbard
and comes through the hole in the Tsuba. I have no idea whether they
would be reversed for a sword intended for left handed use. Indeed, I
have no idea whether there were samurai who routinely fought left
handed--I think of the katana as a two handed weapon which a few
eccentrics used one handed with a wakizashi in the other hand.
And speaking of tsubas ... . My tsuba pendant for fancy occasions (i.e.
the New Year's party) is now a real one, from ebay, and it's all your
fault. I didn't think my bid would be high enough, but I was wrong.
Brian M. Scott
mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
<news:memo.2004010...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> With a bastard weapon like the one Anna's describing, it gets a lot of
> its advantage from the combined ability for single- and double-handed use.
> So you don't /need/ to spend a lot of time with both hands gripping the
> hilt, unless it's useful for a particular strike.
Though the really good bastard sword fighters whom I've seen
in the SCA do in fact use both hands most of the time.
Brian
Irina Rempt
wrote:
> In article <slrnbvorp0....@anchovy.zoic.org>, sha...@zoic.org
> (sharkey) wrote:
>> Possession by Inigo Montoya ... "I'm not really left-handed either"
> <snicker>
>
> That really is one of the world's great swordfights . . .
I think Boudewijn has ordered the DVD to give to either Naomi or me for
her/my/our birthday, depending on when it arrives (she's Jan 26, I'm
Feb 25). We can play it in slow motion so the budding sabre fencer can
see what happens (her trainer recommended it). Besides, I've loved that
movie since I first saw it years ago.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/~irina/foundobjects/ Latest: 18-Nov-2003
Harry Erwin
What style is she trained in? I was trained in katana (dai-to) when I
learned aiki-do. The long katana is used defensively as well as
offensively. It's primarily two-handed--you can release with either
hand, but then balance can be an issue. Be aware that there are multiple
styles of using the katana.
If you're thinking of European sword fighting, you'll get it all wrong.
The katana slices through armor rather than bludgeons. You can also use
it to thrust against unarmored or vulnerable opponents, but it's not
like an epee.
I wish I had my greatgrandfather's dai-sho, but those disappeared
sometime after 1926.
--
Harry Erwin <http://www.theworld.com/~herwin/>
Mary Gentle
Mary Gentle
(Graydon) wrote:
> In <memo.2004010...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>,
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> onsendan:
> > Yeah, that was cool. :) Is this one of the cultures that make a thing
> > out of cleaning their swords, by the way -- Japanese oil of cloves
> > type thing?
>
> Hey, that's not just Japanese; oil of cloves is the best cutting oil
> going for the modern diamond whetstones.
I am, however, informed that Japanese oil of cloves is different from
Western oil of cloves in some way, and that if you use Western oil of
cloves to clean your katana, it turns purple.
I haven't attempted to verify this . . .
Mary
Mary Gentle
dd...@daviddfriedman.nospam.com (David Friedman) wrote:
> In article <memo.2004010...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>,
> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote:
>
> > Not only is it plausible, I've done it (in practise, obviously), both
> > with a katana, and with a 15th century European sword. My experience
> > is that when you're using a weapon like that 'two-handed', two handed
> > is shorthand for some two-handed-grip blows, some right hand blows,
> > and some left hand blows. (Assuming that you are trained to use a
> > sword in your left hand, and that it's of a nature where it can be
> > swapped around -- with a katana, you're fine.)
>
> Full weight weapon?
Yeah, I don't use anything but museum-research replicas, so they're all
full weight. But we have a couple of old re-enactment swords (i.e.
"bricks") acquired over the years, so I know you can do it with something
heavier than the majority of real-life swords, too.
>Did you slide the lower hand up to the guard when
> you were using it single handedly with what had been the lower
> (probably left) hand?
Now you're asking. <g>
>I would have thought the shift would be a little
> clumsy, at least if you are doing it in the course of an attack.
You realise I'm having to mime this to work out how I do it? :) Um . . .
from two-handed grip with right hand uppermost (i.e. closest to the hilt),
to right hand grip, straight transfer over into left hand grip, left hand
taking that upper position from right hand.
It sounds a whole lot more difficult than it is. Have a try, you'll see
what I mean.
>
> I guess I can see it for a full extension left handed thrust, although
> I don't think I would try such a thing.
It's nice for an "Erk! Where did _that_ cut come from?!" move, as well.
>
> > With the exception of the 18th century and on, there's doubt about
> > any 'thrust-only' swords existing.
>
> Estoc?
That's the only one I'm in any doubt about, and you'll note the estoc may
be designed for thrusting through joints/gaps in armour, but it still has
an edge.
>
> > Actually, I don't think it's quite the same as being strongly or
> > weakly -sided . . . There's something about what happens when you're
> > combining weapons that you need to be able to do regardless of
> > handedness; I just wish I could explain it better. Maybe it's
> > something to do with footedness -- I'm assuming you've got them
> > similarly weakly sided with regard to feet? (If you're talking sword
> > and dagger fighting, it doesn't help if your dagger hand and lead
> > foot don't end up where they ought to be in regard to each other, at
> > certain times.)
>
> Sword and shield is a particularly clear case. In closed form, which is
> how I learned, you are shield side on to your opponent. So reversing
> hands also means a nearly 180 degree rotation of the body--from left
> side towards the opponent to right side towards the opponent.
'Closed form'?
I'm sword-and-dagger, for preference, so I get used to swapping feet quite
radically, depending on where I want each weapon to be -- but these days I
fight more square-on to an opponent than I did before my back got
knackered . . .
> ...
>
> > If you've got a katana, actually the answer to the question is no,
> > they won't think she's using a left hand sword, because it would be
> > indistinguishable from a right hand sword.
>
> Well ... . There is the little thing wrapped into the grip--I forget
> its name--which I suppose gives a bulge on one side that is relevant to
> the grip.
Menuki, but don't trust my spelling. :)
When you're using a katana, which I do reasonably often, you really don't
notice the menuki. And you don't notice them on one side because there's
one on each side. (I assume this is the historical way to do it, unless
there's a scholar of Japanese swords in the house who can tell me
different . . . )
>And there is the small knife or the thing that looks like a
> pair of chopsticks but isn't that's mounted on one side of the scabbard
> and comes through the hole in the Tsuba.
Which I've forgotten the name of. Are those Edo/post-Edo period only, or
do you get them before? I can't remember.
>I have no idea whether they
> would be reversed for a sword intended for left handed use. Indeed, I
> have no idea whether there were samurai who routinely fought left
> handed--I think of the katana as a two handed weapon which a few
> eccentrics used one handed with a wakizashi in the other hand.
That's an interesting point, actually. A lot of the two-handed stuff is
really popular later on, in the early Edo, when the European rapier and
dagger techniques have been assimilated.
On the other hand, in the Sengoku period, there's a lot of illustrations
of people using katana and wakazashi -- but it tends to be in a sequence
of working down from ranged weapons like the bow, to long pointy thing
(yari, etc), shorter pointy thing (tashi, maybe? katana and wakazashi),
and shortest pointy thing (tanto - when we're totally screwed).
Even if you scale a katana up so it suits the Western rather than Japanese
proportions, I can't see why you wouldn't use a weapon with that long a
hilt _as_ a bastard weapon when occasion demanded.
>
> And speaking of tsubas ... . My tsuba pendant for fancy occasions
> (i.e. the New Year's party) is now a real one, from ebay, and it's all
> your fault. I didn't think my bid would be high enough, but I was wrong.
Tee. And moreover, hee. I am A Bad Influence. Good. :) You did tell me
-- did it have a dragonfly, or am I thinking of different tsuba?
Mary
Mary Gentle
her...@theworld.com (Harry Erwin) wrote:
[...]
> If you're thinking of European sword fighting, you'll get it all wrong.
> The katana slices through armor rather than bludgeons.
[...]
If you think European sword fighting bludgeons, you'll get that all wrong.
Too much Hollywood, and not enough actual study of the periods, have given
people a completely wrong idea.
And don't try to slice through even lamellar armour if you want much of
any sword left at the end of it. Okay, there's a lot of braid and paper
and leather in the construction of Japanese armour, rather than, say,
the plain metal that is European plate, but - no. Please. Don't.
Mary
David Friedman
> In article <ddfr-0EFA42.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
> dd...@daviddfriedman.nospam.com (David Friedman) wrote:
> > Sword and shield is a particularly clear case. In closed form, which is
> > how I learned, you are shield side on to your opponent. So reversing
> > hands also means a nearly 180 degree rotation of the body--from left
> > side towards the opponent to right side towards the opponent.
> 'Closed form'?
Working from behind the shield. To first aproximation, shield
perpendicular to the ground, perpendicular to line between me and my
opponent. Line running from right heel through left heel through the
opponent. I'm not quite that extreme, but that's the general idea.
You can find a very old manual of mine on the subject at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/miscellany_pdf/Miscellany.htm
click on "Closed Form Heater: A Voice from A.S. IV."
That's about thirty years ago.
...
> When you're using a katana, which I do reasonably often, you really don't
> notice the menuki. And you don't notice them on one side because there's
> one on each side. (I assume this is the historical way to do it, unless
> there's a scholar of Japanese swords in the house who can tell me
> different . . . )
I regret to report that, on the basis of some brief checking through my
books, you appear to be correct. Mea culpa.
> >And there is the small knife or the thing that looks like a
> > pair of chopsticks but isn't that's mounted on one side of the scabbard
> > and comes through the hole in the Tsuba.
>
> Which I've forgotten the name of. Are those Edo/post-Edo period only, or
> do you get them before? I can't remember.
Don't know.
> >I have no idea whether they
> > would be reversed for a sword intended for left handed use. Indeed, I
> > have no idea whether there were samurai who routinely fought left
> > handed--I think of the katana as a two handed weapon which a few
> > eccentrics used one handed with a wakizashi in the other hand.
>
> That's an interesting point, actually. A lot of the two-handed stuff is
> really popular later on, in the early Edo, when the European rapier and
> dagger techniques have been assimilated.
You mean two weapon stuff?
> > And speaking of tsubas ... . My tsuba pendant for fancy occasions
> > (i.e. the New Year's party) is now a real one, from ebay, and it's all
> > your fault. I didn't think my bid would be high enough, but I was wrong.
>
> Tee. And moreover, hee. I am A Bad Influence. Good. :) You did tell me
> -- did it have a dragonfly, or am I thinking of different tsuba?
My old museum replica favorite has a mantis. This one has a man on a
horse. The horse's hindquarters are on one side of the Tsuba, the man
and the rest of the horse on the other.
David Friedman
Graydon <o...@uniserve.com> wrote:
> In <memo.2004010...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>,
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> onsendan:
> Remember that SCA fighting isn't a martial art; you're not allowed to
> actually hit anybody hard, or to use techniques that could have that
> result. Give the rotation limits the SCA puts on two handed weapons,
> you more or less *have* to use them two handed to get any use out of
> them.
Let me take issue with that.
1. You are not supposed to hit someone as hard as you possibly could
with a two handed weapon, for safety reasons. On the other hand, you
have to hit reasonably hard (one handed or two handed), because blows
are supposed to be ignored if the person hit doesn't think they were
hard enough so that a real weapon would have injured him through armor.
People quite often hit as hard as they can with a one handed
weapon--depending on person, blow, etc. For one thing, you need the
speed.
2. Insofar as we don't hit as hard as we could, that reduces the reason
to use both hands, since two hands let you hit harder. So it isn't an
answer to Mary's questions.
3. I don't follow the "rotation limit" argument. Some kingdoms at some
times have had limits on how much of an angle you could swing a weapon
through if you were using it two handed--again for safety reasons. I've
never heard of such a limit being applied to a bastard sword used one
handed, however. So that again would weaken the argument for two handed
use, not strengthen it.
4. I think the answer is that you can move the sword faster, change
direction faster, block better and hit harder with two hands. A standard
SCA bastard sword is long enough to be a bit clumsy as a one handed
weapon--depending, of course, on the size and strength of the person
using it. That's why the usual one handed sword is shorter than the
usual bastard sword.
5. I'm not sure in what sense SCA fighting isn't a martial art. Most
martial arts have limits on what you do in practice, designed to prevent
injury.