What type of equine to use when?
Peter Knutsen
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Will in New Haven
> When and why do you use a donkey, or mule, or pony, instead of a horse?
Well, it's partly a matter of what is available but let's suppose you
have a free choice.
A donkey is admirably suited to carrying heavy loads for its size and
it can get enough to eat in many environments where a horse would
starve. It can easily keep up with people on foot. It can negotiate
almost any terrain where a man would want to walk. Some people find
donkeys rather pleasant company. It would not be good at keeping up
with a mounted individual or group. It isn't a suitable riding animal
for a large person. Donkeys are rarely used to draw vehicles but they
could be, I suppose.
A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
more powerful frame. However, those virtues are somewhat diluted by
the horse qualities the mule has inherited from his mother, which is
the same place that the mule got his larger and more powerful frame.
Mules are often used to draw wagons on poor roads. Mules can be ridden
but they might be harder to control in mounted combat than horses, not
being willing to risk their lives. Mules are sometimes, um,
difficult.
If the animal got his horse qualities from his father the animal is
usually called a hinny, not a mule. I have only read about hinnys and
they apparently didn't have enough useful qualities for people to
breed them deliberately. The one I read about the most was a sweet-
tempered little donkey-sized animal that carried children at a pony
ride.
The word "pony" covers a great many animals and some of them aren't
much like one another. Many of them are hardy and can do well in poor
terrain but I don't think they can live on the kind of course
vegetation on which a donkey will thrive. Still, a pony is often
chosen as a riding animal for a smallish rider.
--
Will in New Haven
Next week: "What kind of dog should I take into the Mouth of Hell?"
JF
>
> A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> more powerful frame.
Nb Poitou Donkey -- there are a couple at Kentwell, just down the
road. They are _huge_. Also, I note, El Andalus comes up again
with the Andalusian donkey, another biggie. I wonder if some of
the mules I saw there -- last time we saw two, complete with
panniers, carrying stuff and the muleteer riding the leader --
were actually donkeys.
JF
Is it just me or does this place become more like a piece of set
work every day?
Ric Locke
> When and why do you use a donkey, or mule, or pony, instead of a horse?
A donkey is very strong for its size and eats more or less
proportionately to its weight. Like mules, below, they have fewer
maintenance issues than horses or ponies, and they are MUCH less picky
about what they can and will eat. They are somewhat more difficult to
train than horses or ponies unless you have a lot of time on your hands
to devote to training. Donkeys are used by poor people, who don't have
large loads to move but need a draft animal. They are also the animal of
choice for pack-loads in complex or difficult terrain where a larger
horse or mule would have problems maneuvering.
A mule is stronger than a horse of the same mass and has more endurance,
but is slower. Mules don't have nearly the maintenance issues a horse
has, especially as regards their feet and legs. They are also smarter,
which makes them harder to train but more reliable in use once trained.
Mules are used when you need to carry loads and/or pull wagons, plows,
and the like, and prefer practicality to elegance or don't need speed.
Mules are a poor choice for a stagecoach or mail coach, but excellent
for pulling, e.g., a big load of logs.
Ponies are used where people can't afford a horse, or a horse won't fit.
They have all the maintenance issues of horses, plus unique ones related
to the fact that they aren't really big enough to support the full
ramifications of a horse's digestive system. They are somewhat more
tractable than donkeys and a good deal more agile, and do better in
varied terrain, especially as riding animals. One might use a pack-train
of donkeys, but have ponies for the people to ride. The places where
ponies are appropriate are fewer than the valid applications for the
other types, so ponies are mostly pets.
Note that while we mostly recognize "pony" as a separate category, in
reality they are a breed of horse. Purists in the horse business
sometimes dismiss any horse less than 14 hands (56" high at the withers)
as a pony. In earlier times, when categories or breeds weren't jealously
maintained by registries, people simply selected the size of horse
needed for the application -- in general, the smaller the equid the more
agile and nimble it is. "Cobs" (next size up from "pony") were the
riding animal of choice for many years, and express riders generally
preferred that size. I suspect that the only reason there have never
been war mules (for knights to ride) is difficulty getting the
relatively small donkey to breed with the great big horse, and getting a
large enough animal out of the exercise.
Regards,
Ric
Will in New Haven
> Will in New Haven wrote:
>
>
>
> > A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> > more powerful frame.
>
> Nb Poitou Donkey -- there are a couple at Kentwell, just down the
> road. They are _huge_. Also, I note, El Andalus comes up again
> with the Andalusian donkey, another biggie. I wonder if some of
> the mules I saw there -- last time we saw two, complete with
> panniers, carrying stuff and the muleteer riding the leader --
> were actually donkeys.
The bigger breeds of donkeys were often the animals of choice for
breeding big, strong mules. For one thing, a big jack is less likely
to be shy around a mare, although Jacks have a reputation for _not_
being shy in those circumstances.
Dorothy J Heydt
Peter Knutsen <pe...@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>When and why do you use a donkey, or mule, or pony, instead of a horse?
Well, to some extent it'll depend on what you have around. If
you are a small child you'll ride a pony instead of a horse which
would be too large for you. If you are a Hobbit or a Dwarf,
ditto. If you're interested in endurance rather than speed, a
donkey or mule is a better choice. If you are a medieval monk,
you'll prefer to ride a donkey or mule, because it is *not*
suitable for riding into battle. When Jesus rode into Jerusalem
(as commemorated on Palm Sunday) he rode a donkey, "in order that
Scripture might be fulfilled" [as the Evangelists tend to say],
quoting from Zachariah,
"Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion!
Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and having salvation,
gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
There are probably other considerations that I don't know about,
having ridden a donkey once at the age of four and a horse once
at the age of about twelve.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Kay Shapero
3be1b4...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
bill....@taylorandfrancis.com says...
> A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> more powerful frame. However, those virtues are somewhat diluted by
> the horse qualities the mule has inherited from his mother, which is
> the same place that the mule got his larger and more powerful frame.
> Mules are often used to draw wagons on poor roads. Mules can be ridden
> but they might be harder to control in mounted combat than horses, not
> being willing to risk their lives. Mules are sometimes, um,
> difficult.
>
Mules are also noted for their endurance, compared to horses.
--
Kay Shapero
address munged, email kay at following domain
http://www.kayshapero.net
Will in New Haven
> In article <c9e9b1ca-9538-4601-83cd-
> 3be1b4ee8...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com says...
>
> > A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> > more powerful frame. However, those virtues are somewhat diluted by
> > the horse qualities the mule has inherited from his mother, which is
> > the same place that the mule got his larger and more powerful frame.
> > Mules are often used to draw wagons on poor roads. Mules can be ridden
> > but they might be harder to control in mounted combat than horses, not
> > being willing to risk their lives. Mules are sometimes, um,
> > difficult.
>
> Mules are also noted for their endurance, compared to horses.
I thought I had mentioned that as one of the virtues of donkeys, which
came to mules from their fathers. However, I see I left it out.
"As donkeys, our two virtues are an ability to get along on poor food,
being strong for our size, our great endurance,
Our THREE virtues are."
David Friedman
Peter Knutsen <pe...@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
> When and why do you use a donkey, or mule, or pony, instead of a horse?
I think a mule is less excitable and has more endurance than a horse,
but that's an impression from reading, not anything based on expert
knowledge or even research. A pony is a small horse, so the obvious
reason to use it is a small rider, such as a child. But ponies can carry
adults, and in some contexts might be what were available to do so.
I think of donkeys as willing to put up with a wider variety of food
than the others, but smaller.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
James A. Donald
> it can get enough to eat in many environments where a horse would
> starve. It can easily keep up with people on foot. It can negotiate
> almost any terrain where a man would want to walk. Some people find
> donkeys rather pleasant company. It would not be good at keeping up
> with a mounted individual or group. It isn't a suitable riding animal
> for a large person. Donkeys are rarely used to draw vehicles but they
> could be, I suppose.
>
> A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> more powerful frame. However, those virtues are somewhat diluted by
> the horse qualities the mule has inherited from his mother, which is
> the same place that the mule got his larger and more powerful frame.
> Mules are often used to draw wagons on poor roads. Mules can be ridden
> but they might be harder to control in mounted combat than horses, not
> being willing to risk their lives. Mules are sometimes, um,
> difficult.
A donkey is descended from the african wild ass, which is not a social
animal - horses live in herds, asses are solitary.
Being, like a cat, a non social animal, it lacks the social virtues,
such as courage and obedience.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
J.Pascal
> When and why do you use a donkey, or mule, or pony, instead of a horse?
There's more than one sort of horse, too, besides horse and pony.
And other draft animals other than equine.
-Julie
Will in New Haven
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:42:25 -0800 (PST), Will in New Haven
>
>
>
>
>
> > A donkey is admirably suited to carrying heavy loads for its size and
> > it can get enough to eat in many environments where a horse would
> > starve. It can easily keep up with people on foot. It can negotiate
> > almost any terrain where a man would want to walk. Some people find
> > donkeys rather pleasant company. It would not be good at keeping up
> > with a mounted individual or group. It isn't a suitable riding animal
> > for a large person. Donkeys are rarely used to draw vehicles but they
> > could be, I suppose.
>
> > A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> > more powerful frame. However, those virtues are somewhat diluted by
> > the horse qualities the mule has inherited from his mother, which is
> > the same place that the mule got his larger and more powerful frame.
> > Mules are often used to draw wagons on poor roads. Mules can be ridden
> > but they might be harder to control in mounted combat than horses, not
> > being willing to risk their lives. Mules are sometimes, um,
> > difficult.
>
> A donkey is descended from the african wild ass, which is not a social
> animal - horses live in herds, asses are solitary.
>
> Being, like a cat, a non social animal, it lacks the social virtues,
> such as courage and obedience.
Except for not being true, this is a reasonable statement. Wild asses
live in bands but they are scattered out over a larger area than a
similar herd of horses because of the arid environment, which causes
food to be thin on the ground. Mustangs in parts of Utah and Nevada
live the same way for the same reason. The band members know each
other and spend time together but scatter to feed. If you capture
several mustangs, the ones that belong to the same loose band will
gather together and face the others as allies.
Wild ass jacks tend to be more tolerant of other jacks in their
territory, once they have established dominance over them, but
otherwise their social behavior isn't much different than wild
horses.
Wikpedia doesn't have it completely wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Wild_Ass
Note: "Loose herds of up to fifty individuals."
Of course, cats are a lot less non-social than traditional theory
says. See _Tribe of Tiger_ by I forget her name.
--
Will in New Haven
>
> --
> ----------------------
> We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
> of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
> right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
>
> http://www.jim.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Will in New Haven
There is a supplement to the 1632 series where a knowledgable person
discusses what types of horses to use for what purposes.
Oxen, camels, Llamas, Asian buffalo (might as well try use tigers or
just cut your own throat as try to use African buffalo) and elephants
might need to be discussed, for a start.
Remus Shepherd
> > A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> > more powerful frame. However, those virtues are somewhat diluted by
> > the horse qualities the mule has inherited from his mother, which is
> > the same place that the mule got his larger and more powerful frame.
> > Mules are often used to draw wagons on poor roads. Mules can be ridden
> > but they might be harder to control in mounted combat than horses, not
> > being willing to risk their lives. Mules are sometimes, um,
> > difficult.
> >
> Mules are also noted for their endurance, compared to horses.
The neatest thing about mules is that they possess what is known as
'hybrid heterosis' -- the horse and donkey genes are complementary, in such
a way that the mix is more than the sum of their parts. Mules are more
intelligent and more durable than either horses or donkeys. They're like
super-equines. Shame about the infertility, though.
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/remus_shepherd/
Dorothy J Heydt
As I understand it, occasionally a mule will in fact be fertile.
And if you breed two of those together, you get ... either an
inferior horse or an inferior donkey.
Alma Hromic Deckert
Perhaps it's that intelligence that also makes them reputably more
stubborn (i.e. they prefer to think for themselves and not obey human
orders) than EITHER of the parental species...
A.
Will in New Haven
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:49:52 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
>
>
>
>
>
> <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net> wrote:
>
> >> > A mule has many of the virtues of a donkey combined with a larger and
> >> > more powerful frame. However, those virtues are somewhat diluted by
> >> > the horse qualities the mule has inherited from his mother, which is
> >> > the same place that the mule got his larger and more powerful frame.
> >> > Mules are often used to draw wagons on poor roads. Mules can be ridden
> >> > but they might be harder to control in mounted combat than horses, not
> >> > being willing to risk their lives. Mules are sometimes, um,
> >> > difficult.
>
> >> Mules are also noted for their endurance, compared to horses.
>
> > The neatest thing about mules is that they possess what is known as
> >'hybrid heterosis' -- the horse and donkey genes are complementary, in such
> >a way that the mix is more than the sum of their parts. Mules are more
> >intelligent and more durable than either horses or donkeys. They're like
> >super-equines. Shame about the infertility, though.
>
> Perhaps it's that intelligence that also makes them reputably more
> stubborn (i.e. they prefer to think for themselves and not obey human
> orders) than EITHER of the parental species...
Donkeys are reputed to be very stubborn also. And I'm not sure mules
are smarter than donkeys, although both are smarter than horses.
Michelle Bottorff
> Oxen, camels, Llamas, Asian buffalo (might as well try use tigers or
> just cut your own throat as try to use African buffalo) and elephants
> might need to be discussed, for a start.
Elephants I would really like to know about.
Anyone know of good places to read up on the history, methods and usages
of domesticated elephants?
--
Michelle Bottorff -> Chelle B. -> Shelby
L. Shelby, Writer http://www.lshelby.com/
Livejournal http://lavenderbard.livejournal.com/
rec.arts.sf.composition FAQ http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html
Suzanne Blom
"Michelle Bottorff" <mbot...@lshelby.com> wrote in message
news:1j9bjst.1v6xk7f1b14s4mN%mbot...@lshelby.com...
> Will in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>
>> Oxen, camels, Llamas, Asian buffalo (might as well try use tigers or
>> just cut your own throat as try to use African buffalo) and elephants
>> might need to be discussed, for a start.
>
> Elephants I would really like to know about.
>
> Anyone know of good places to read up on the history, methods and usages
> of domesticated elephants?
>
by Iain and Oria Douglas-Hamilton is a pretty good look at African elephants
in their native haunts. There is also somewhere out there a CD of elephant
music, that is, music created and played by elephants.
Michelle Bottorff
> > Anyone know of good places to read up on the history, methods and usages
> > of domesticated elephants?
> >
> Alas, I have nothing about domesticated elephants, but _Among the Elephants_
> by Iain and Oria Douglas-Hamilton is a pretty good look at African elephants
> in their native haunts. There is also somewhere out there a CD of elephant
> music, that is, music created and played by elephants.
My library does not have a copy of either of these, alas!
The only books they have on elephants at all, as far as I can tell, are
in the juvenile section.
Adults, apparently, are not supposed to be interested in elephants.
... I have no objection to being grown up, I only object to what other
people consider appropriate behavior for a person my age.
:grumble:
Shana Rosenfeld
> Will in New Haven<bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>
>> Oxen, camels, Llamas, Asian buffalo (might as well try use tigers or
>> just cut your own throat as try to use African buffalo) and elephants
>> might need to be discussed, for a start.
>
> Elephants I would really like to know about.
>
> Anyone know of good places to read up on the history, methods and usages
> of domesticated elephants?
>
bunch of results, a few of which looked like they might be helpful.
--
Shana L. Rosenfeld sh...@westnet.com
http://slrose.livejournal.com
Suzanne Blom
> Suzanne Blom <sue...@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>> > Anyone know of good places to read up on the history, methods and
>> > usages
>> > of domesticated elephants?
>> >
>> Alas, I have nothing about domesticated elephants, but _Among the
>> Elephants_
>> by Iain and Oria Douglas-Hamilton is a pretty good look at African
>> elephants
>> in their native haunts. There is also somewhere out there a CD of
>> elephant
>> music, that is, music created and played by elephants.
>
> My library does not have a copy of either of these, alas!
>
> The only books they have on elephants at all, as far as I can tell, are
> in the juvenile section.
>
_Elephants in the Living Room, Bears in the Canoe_. It's about a couple
who, among other things, adopted an elephant and raised it in the house
until it got too big. There is a photo of the elephant in a rocking chair.
> Adults, apparently, are not supposed to be interested in elephants.
>
Or your librarian(s) lack imagination.
> ... I have no objection to being grown up, I only object to what other
> people consider appropriate behavior for a person my age.
>
Yeah, my shelves mix in children's books when I like them or they have
better info than the adult books.