Pronunciation of names
Chris Kern
What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
good chance people will mispronounce? I guess the easiest thing to do
is just leave it there and let people do whatever they want with the
pronunciation, but you could also change the spelling to make it
easier, and some people put pronunciation keys in appendices.
(Examples from my story are "Nangelmar", which is supposed to be with
a hard 'g' and the first 'a' as in 'father', but I think most people
would pronounce it with "nan" rhyming with "fan" and a soft G -- then
"Faindin" is supposed to be "fine-deen" but I think "fane-din" or
"fine-din" are possibilities that people might think of.)
-Chris
Nicola Browne
news:t5u3j0pamdo63ibjd...@4ax.com
I think it boils down to a choice between what it looks like on the
page and the sound. I rarely sound names, even in my head, when I'm
reading so a distinctive word shape is quite helpful.If the sound of
the name really matters then maybe you should
spell it in the way most likely to produce that sound for most readers.
I've just been debating a similar question - one of my characters is
called 'Roat' which I think people will read to rhyme with 'moat'
so I hyphenated it which looks ugly 'Ro-at'and which seemed to require
that all the other similar names should be hyphenated too. Mostly he's
called Ro so it doesn't matter much and I'd rather not sprinkle the
book with unecessary hyphens.
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
GJ Pfeiffer
<Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
Datum: Before I read on to how you wanted them, I pronounced "Nangelmar"
as "nang gull mar", where "nang" rhymes with "hang", "bang", etc., and
"Faindin" as "fane din".
I don't really understand, however, why it matters to you. As a reader,
I'm happy if a name allows me to construct a reasonable pronunciation
and looks sufficiently distinct that I don't confuse it with any other
name in the story[1]. How does it matter whether I am pronouncing it
"correctly"[2]? I can see that it might add another layer of interest
for those readers who are interested in such things, but does it really
detract from the story if some readers don't?
[1] Unless that confusion is a feature, not a bug, of course.
[2] OK, I can imagine the possibility of a specific story in which
pronunciation might be relevant to the story, although, other than puns,
I can't think what that might be. But ISTM that would be a special
case.
--
Glenda [formerly known as GJP and MamaG]
Helen
<DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> writes
>
>Datum: Before I read on to how you wanted them, I pronounced "Nangelmar"
>as "nang gull mar", where "nang" rhymes with "hang", "bang", etc., and
>"Faindin" as "fane din".
>
a near rhyme with "handlebar"), but I'd have said "Fine din" rather than
"Fane". But if it's to be "deen" and not "din", you'd need some way of
indicating that lengthened vowel.
>I don't really understand, however, why it matters to you. As a reader,
>I'm happy if a name allows me to construct a reasonable pronunciation
>and looks sufficiently distinct that I don't confuse it with any other
>name in the story[1]. How does it matter whether I am pronouncing it
>"correctly"[2]? I can see that it might add another layer of interest
>for those readers who are interested in such things, but does it really
>detract from the story if some readers don't?
>
The only time pronunciation becomes an issue is if you want to discuss
the story with someone else. Many a time at an SF con have I belatedly
realised that I don't know how to pronounce a name. But usually readers
muddle by.
You can always put a pronunciation guide in the introduction, of course.
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
nyra
>
> What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
> good chance people will mispronounce?
I throw in a couple of apostrophes and diacritical marks, to get from
"good chance" to "virtual guarantee".
> I guess the easiest thing to do
> is just leave it there and let people do whatever they want with the
> pronunciation, but you could also change the spelling to make it
> easier, and some people put pronunciation keys in appendices.
It comes down to who you're writing for and whether you care if the
words are properly pronounced or not. I think a younger audience may
appreciate advice on pronunciation, while an adult audience might tend
to get it approximatively right without extra pointers (and many of
those who don't won't bother to try getting it right).
--
„Der Fürst hat soviel Weisheit in seinem Kopfe wie ich in meinem
Hintern.“
- Th. Müntzer über Georg von Sachsen
Suzanne A Blom
Helen <mh...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote in message
news:Y1C64nAp...@baradel.demon.co.uk...
> In article <6p4mk9dpuj6d.1tl2649imz4zl$.d...@40tude.net>, GJ Pfeiffer
> <DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> writes
> >
> >I'm happy if a name allows me to construct a reasonable pronunciation
> >and looks sufficiently distinct that I don't confuse it with any other
> >name in the story[1]. How does it matter whether I am pronouncing it
> >"correctly"[2]? I can see that it might add another layer of interest
> >for those readers who are interested in such things, but does it really
> >detract from the story if some readers don't?
> >
> The only time pronunciation becomes an issue is if you want to discuss
> the story with someone else. Many a time at an SF con have I belatedly
> realised that I don't know how to pronounce a name. But usually readers
> muddle by.
>
> You can always put a pronunciation guide in the introduction, of course.
>
if I don't want to.
Boudewijn Rempt
>
> What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
> good chance people will mispronounce?
I put up a website with a grammar of the language complete with phonology,
audio files for all the examples in the grammar. A lexicon. (Memo to self:
must rewrite the lexicon cgi scripts for the third time. But first Krita.
And the WIP.) And then I hope that among the readers-who-will-be will be
some who are interested enough in pronouncing the names right that they
will begin learning the language.
My approach wouldn't work for everyone, I guess -- it appears to work for
Ricardo Pinto : http://www.ricardopinto.com/quya/index.html.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org/fading/index.cgi
Irina Rempt
> Memo to self: must rewrite the lexicon cgi scripts for the third
> time.
That's my fault, I'm afraid, for reminding him of it by asking "do we
have anything I can make my new lexicon with?"
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 14-Jun-2004
Shana Rosenfeld
:
: What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
: good chance people will mispronounce?
I just correct people when they mispronounce it. I get a lot of shah-na or
shan-na, but it should be pronouced shay-na. At least it's not unique
anymore, even if most of the other Shanas are small children.
: (Examples from my story are "Nangelmar", which is supposed to be with
: a hard 'g' and the first 'a' as in 'father', but I think most people
: would pronounce it with "nan" rhyming with "fan" and a soft G --
My instinct is to make Nangel rhyme with mangle. :)
then
: "Faindin" is supposed to be "fine-deen" but I think "fane-din" or
: "fine-din" are possibilities that people might think of.)
:
I would think fane-din. If you wanted me to thind fine-deen, you should
have some one yell for her fah-eeeeen-deeeen!
I would suggest you don't worry about it. Even if they mispronounce the
names, at least they are pronounceable. No apostrophes or multiple
consonents where you have to know that w is a vowel.
If your editor thinks you should add a glossary, do so. :)
--
Shana L. Rosenfeld sh...@westnet.com
Brian M. Scott
<DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> wrote in
<news:6p4mk9dpuj6d.1tl2649imz4zl$.d...@40tude.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <news:t5u3j0pamdo63ibjd...@4ax.com>, Chris Kern
> <Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
>> good chance people will mispronounce? I guess the easiest thing to do
>> is just leave it there and let people do whatever they want with the
>> pronunciation, but you could also change the spelling to make it
>> easier, and some people put pronunciation keys in appendices.
>> (Examples from my story are "Nangelmar", which is supposed to be with
>> a hard 'g' and the first 'a' as in 'father', but I think most people
>> would pronounce it with "nan" rhyming with "fan" and a soft G -- then
>> "Faindin" is supposed to be "fine-deen" but I think "fane-din" or
>> "fine-din" are possibilities that people might think of.)
> Datum: Before I read on to how you wanted them, I pronounced "Nangelmar"
> as "nang gull mar", where "nang" rhymes with "hang", "bang", etc., and
> "Faindin" as "fane din".
In ASCII IPA I'd say ['naNgElmar] and ['faIndIn], roughly
\NAHNG-gel-mar\, with hard \g\, and \FINE-din\. To elicit
['faIndin] (\FINE-deen\) from me without additional
explanation, you'd need to write <Faindiin> or perhaps
<Faindín>.
> I don't really understand, however, why it matters to you. As a reader,
> I'm happy if a name allows me to construct a reasonable pronunciation
> and looks sufficiently distinct that I don't confuse it with any other
> name in the story[1]. [...]
Perhaps Chris is the same sort of reader that I am: I much
prefer to know how names are to be pronounced.
Brian
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
>
>What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
>good chance people will mispronounce? I guess the easiest thing to do
>is just leave it there and let people do whatever they want with the
>pronunciation, but you could also change the spelling to make it
>easier, and some people put pronunciation keys in appendices.
>
>(Examples from my story are "Nangelmar", which is supposed to be with
>a hard 'g' and the first 'a' as in 'father', but I think most people
>would pronounce it with "nan" rhyming with "fan" and a soft G
add a circumflex accent over the A in "Nan" and your problem is solved
>-- then
>"Faindin" is supposed to be "fine-deen" but I think "fane-din" or
>"fine-din" are possibilities that people might think of.)
yes, i'd say that as "fine-din". mainly because my eye and my ear see
that last word as "din" - as in, "lots of noise" - and i'll say it the
same way.
A.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>:
>: What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
>: good chance people will mispronounce?
>
>I just correct people when they mispronounce it. I get a lot of shah-na or
>shan-na, but it should be pronouced shay-na. At least it's not unique
>anymore, even if most of the other Shanas are small children.
I usually correct people twice. After that, I don't answer to the
wrong name.
--
Marilee J. Layman
G.W. Bush says "results count!"
That's why I'm voting for Kerry.
Lucy Kemnitzer
I finally decided not to care.
Then I discovered, here in this group, that there is a certain class
of reader who prefers to be told exactly how to say things and to be
given a nice little glossary. So I've done that for the one that's
partly in Spanglish, even though I don't care how anybody says Chuy
(chewy) or Xenefer (khenefer) or any of the other names.
Lucy Kemnitzer, still
http://www.baymoon.com/~ritaxis
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ritaxis
Elizabeth
wrote in <news:quc4j0t48r24lekqf...@4ax.com>:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:42:13 +0900, Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
>>good chance people will mispronounce?
I try not to cringe when they say it wrong, and correct them politely.
>>(Examples from my story are "Nangelmar", which is supposed to be with
>>a hard 'g' and the first 'a' as in 'father', but I think most people
>>would pronounce it with "nan" rhyming with "fan" and a soft G
I thought "nangle" like "mangle".
> add a circumflex accent over the A in "Nan" and your problem is solved
Is that the one that looks like a caret? I wouldn't know what to do with it
so would ignore it.
>>"Faindin" is supposed to be "fine-deen" but I think "fane-din" or
>>"fine-din" are possibilities that people might think of.)
>
> yes, i'd say that as "fine-din".
Me too.
--
Elizabeth
polly.callan at earthlink dot net
http://home.earthlink.net/~polly.callan
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pollyc/
Pat Bowne
"Chris Kern" <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote
> What do you do when you have a name or names that you think there's a
> good chance people will mispronounce?
If the pronunciation matters, you have one character tell another how to
pronounce it.
"Nine-gelmar?"
"No, Nahng. Rhymes with bong."
--or something of the sort.
Pat
Mad Bad Rabbit
> If the pronunciation matters, you have one character tell another how to
> pronounce it.
>
> "Nine-gelmar?"
> "No, Nahng. Rhymes with bong."
"Why didn't you just ask your author to change it to 'Nonglemar'?"
"I tried, but he said it looked funny."
--
>;K
Chris Kern
I don't really care that much if people mispronounce the names, so
maybe it's not a big deal. Changing the spelling is tough because the
names have been around for so long ("Nangelmar" dates back 12 years or
more to a D&D world I made...)
-Chris
Chris Kern
<mh...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> posted the following:
>In article <6p4mk9dpuj6d.1tl2649imz4zl$.d...@40tude.net>, GJ Pfeiffer
><DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> writes
>>
>>Datum: Before I read on to how you wanted them, I pronounced "Nangelmar"
>>as "nang gull mar", where "nang" rhymes with "hang", "bang", etc., and
>>"Faindin" as "fane din".
>>
>Another datum. I would have pronounced "Nanglemar" as you do (making it
>a near rhyme with "handlebar"), but I'd have said "Fine din" rather than
>"Fane". But if it's to be "deen" and not "din", you'd need some way of
>indicating that lengthened vowel.
Yeah, that's a cause of concern. When I first started working on the
stories in this world about....8 years ago, the spellings of names
were rather chaotic, and at some point I "standardized" the spelling
in a way that's not particularly intuitive. The "i" is always a long
"i" when it appears in names. But perhaps I should change the
spellings -- but I'm not sure I like accents popping up all over the
place in names. Does it bother anyone? One of the main characters in
the story is supposed to have his named spelled with a circumflexed u.
The bizarre thing about this is that by sheer coincidence, the values
of the basic un-accented vowels in the names of my stories are exactly
the same as the vowels of romanized Japanese -- at time I hadn't
developed the interest (or knowledge) of Japanese that I have now.
Jacey Bedford
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
In Roat's case I might have taken the easy option and inserted a W,
spelling him Rowat.
Mostly I try to have names which are easily pronounceable, though there
are possible differences on the left and right sides of the Atlantic
because an English _a_ sound could be a short 'a' or a long 'ahr' in the
UK and 'ay' in the USA.
Our daughter's name is Ghillan - pronounced with a hard g as in ghost as
opposed to Jillan.
I stole the sound of the name from a friend of mine (at school back in
the sixties). She was pronounced Ghillan but spelled Ghislaine. No-one
ever spelled her name correctly if they heard it or pronounced it
correctly if they saw it written.
So we decided we liked the sound of the name but the spelling was
impractical and when our daughter was born we called her Gillan.
Intending it be pronounced with the hard G.
We got a host of congratulations cards back from the baby announcement
message and about half of them sent a welcome to baby Gillian, having
carelessly inserted the superfluous I because that was what their brain
told them it should be..
So we borrowed the h back out of Ghislaine and called her Ghillan
instead.
Cheers
Jacey
(as opposed to Gacey)
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
J?rg Raddatz
I pronounced "Nangelmar" mentally exactly like you intended, but then
I am German and that is the standars pronunciation.
With the second, I would have to get very stroing hints not to
pronounce it "fine-din", since the similarity to the german word
"Feindin" (female enemy) is very strong. BTW, she should better not be
(from the story PoV) an enemy in disguise, or it would look (sound?)
like very clumsy, groan-inducing foreshadowing to a Germanophone.
A propos, that may be why I never really got the point when reading
"Eine Studie in Scharlachrot" for the first time, because IIRC the
translator somehow managed to miss the point of "Rache" completely.
Oh, and I dimly remember that Poes "Goldkäfer" also has a mangled
riddle (at least in the traditional translation).
Jörg
Brian M. Scott
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in
<news:FDB7utDC...@artifact.demon.co.uk> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> She was pronounced Ghillan
> but spelled Ghislaine. No-one ever spelled her name
> correctly if they heard it or pronounced it correctly if
> they saw it written.
Since it's French, I'd have pronounced it approximately
\gee-LEN\ (with 'hard' \g\).
[...]
Brian
Nicola Browne
news:FDB7utDC...@artifact.demon.co.uk
>> In Roat's case I might have taken the easy option and inserted a W,
> spelling him Rowat.
>
Now why didn't I think of that? Thanks.
I probably won't use it because, for the sake of logic I'd have to call
him Row which can also be read to rhyme with cow (Roat's twin
is called Rinat which abreviates to Rin) why that should matter a jot
I don't know, but I find it does. I've changed one of the main
character's name several times, but for some reason I rebel at changing
Ro and Rin to anything else.
I have reached the stage of general despair that this reluctance
not to change something is a heartening sign. I have only been asked
to make relatively small changes, but on reading the blasted ms again.
(actually I haven't even managed that yet - on reading fragments of
the ms again) I find myself thinking 'Why did I do any of it this way?'
I am in that dangerous mood when the liklihood of committing random
reckless and unnecessary edits is very high.
Time to take the dog for a walk.
Brian M. Scott
<nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in
<news:cc6a3b523387ab5f17...@mygate.mailgate.org>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "Jacey Bedford" <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:FDB7utDC...@artifact.demon.co.uk
>> In Roat's case I might have taken the easy option and inserted a W,
>> spelling him Rowat.
> Now why didn't I think of that? Thanks.
> I probably won't use it because, for the sake of logic I'd have to call
> him Row which can also be read to rhyme with cow
I don't see this: <Rowat> can be quite naturally syllabified
as <Ro-wat>, for which <Ro> is a fine pet form.
[...]
Brian
Nicola Browne
news:mjqgsnf3zokh.f...@40tude.net
Yes, you're right. I forgot to mention that the Chief's house is divided
into quarters with one wife presiding over each quarter and
the children of each quarter being named for the quarter so that
all children of the second quarter, for example, end in 'at' -
colloquially that's the bit of the name they lose (if they're going
to loose any.)This bit is kind of embedded in the backgound of the
story,
though it seems quite arbritary when I explain it.
Brian M. Scott
<nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in
<news:74b1c3694d00f2d04b...@mygate.mailgate.org>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
> news:mjqgsnf3zokh.f...@40tude.net
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:23:07 +0000 (UTC), Nicola Browne
>> <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in
>> <news:cc6a3b523387ab5f17...@mygate.mailgate.org>
>> in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>>> "Jacey Bedford" <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:FDB7utDC...@artifact.demon.co.uk
>>>> In Roat's case I might have taken the easy option and inserted a W,
>>>> spelling him Rowat.
>>> Now why didn't I think of that? Thanks.
>>> I probably won't use it because, for the sake of logic I'd have to call
>>> him Row which can also be read to rhyme with cow
>> I don't see this: <Rowat> can be quite naturally syllabified
>> as <Ro-wat>, for which <Ro> is a fine pet form.
> Yes, you're right. I forgot to mention that the Chief's
> house is divided into quarters with one wife presiding
> over each quarter and the children of each quarter being
> named for the quarter so that all children of the second
> quarter, for example, end in 'at' - colloquially that's
> the bit of the name they lose (if they're going to loose
> any.)This bit is kind of embedded in the backgound of the
> story, though it seems quite arbritary when I explain it.
Ah, yes, that does make it more difficult. Okay; could you
change the identifier for the second quarter to <-āt> and
make it <Roāt>? I'd certainly read that as a two-syllable
name.
Brian
Nicola Browne
>> Ah, yes, that does make it more difficult. Okay; could you
> change the identifier for the second quarter to <-āt> and
> make it <Roāt>? I'd certainly read that as a two-syllable
> name.
>
> Brian
Thanks - that's a good way round it.
Jacey Bedford
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> writes
Yes, that's right.
Well 'Gee-lan' anyway, which mostly became 'Gil-lan.' (Still with a hard
G.)
(But in Barnsley they don't hold no truck wi' fancy French
pronunciation.)
:-)
Jacey
Jacey Bedford
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>"Jacey Bedford" <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>news:FDB7utDC...@artifact.demon.co.uk
>
>>> In Roat's case I might have taken the easy option and inserted a W,
>> spelling him Rowat.
>>
>Now why didn't I think of that? Thanks.
You can still use Rowat and abbreviate it to Ro. It's your book. Your
name. You are God.
Jacey
Jacey Bedford
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>news:1vci2he9sng03$.q8oqrgu6...@40tude.net
>
>>> Ah, yes, that does make it more difficult. Okay; could you
>> change the identifier for the second quarter to <-āt> and
>> make it <Roāt>? I'd certainly read that as a two-syllable
>> name.
Jacey
Alma Hromic Deckert
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>In message <8i73fxm30ygt$.1e0ljdob...@40tude.net>, Brian M. Scott
><b.s...@csuohio.edu> writes
>>On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:42:26 +0100, Jacey Bedford
>><look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in
>><news:FDB7utDC...@artifact.demon.co.uk> in
>>rec.arts.sf.composition:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> She was pronounced Ghillan
>>> but spelled Ghislaine. No-one ever spelled her name
>>> correctly if they heard it or pronounced it correctly if
>>> they saw it written.
>>
>>Since it's French, I'd have pronounced it approximately
>>\gee-LEN\ (with 'hard' \g\).
>>
>Yes, that's right.
actually the "ghislaine" being french i'd instinctively go for a zh
sound for that G - like in Gigi. so THAT name i'ld pronounce something
that approximates to "ZHIS-lang"
>Well 'Gee-lan' anyway, which mostly became 'Gil-lan.' (Still with a hard
>G.)
YOUR verison, Ghillan, i WOULD pronounce as Gill(as in fish)-lann.
A.
Brian M. Scott
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in
<news:f3q9T$ppmmN...@artifact.demon.co.uk> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In message <37fd35cb34506f0399...@mygate.mailgate.org>,
> Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>>news:1vci2he9sng03$.q8oqrgu6...@40tude.net
>>> Ah, yes, that does make it more difficult. Okay; could you
>>> change the identifier for the second quarter to <-āt> and
>>> make it <Roāt>? I'd certainly read that as a two-syllable
>>> name.
> Hmm - I'd still read that and pronounce it as 'rote.'
To do so, you have to assume that the circumflex has no
function. Once you assume that it's not there as mere
decoration and ask yourself what function it might serve,
just about any reasonable answer will get you two syllables.
(One natural interpretation, for instance, is that <ā>
represents a long \ah\.)
Brian
Phil
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:26:55 +0100, Jacey Bedford
[Regarding a name spelt Ghislaine and pronounced \gee-LEN\ with 'hard' \g\]
>>Yes, that's right.
>
> actually the "ghislaine" being french i'd instinctively go for a zh
> sound for that G - like in Gigi. so THAT name i'ld pronounce something
> that approximates to "ZHIS-lang"
The \zh\ is correct, at least from a native French speaker's point of
view. I'm not sure where you'd get the \ng\ part at the end, though. Of
course, I'd automatically pronounce the whole thing in French -- \zhis-LEN\
and would never, ever independently arrive at the actual intended
pronunciation via that particular spelling.
And in a different part of the thread Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:30:33 +0100, Jacey Bedford
[Roât as alternate spelling to get Roat pronounced Rowat]
>> Hmm - I'd still read that and pronounce it as 'rote.'
>
> To do so, you have to assume that the circumflex has no
> function. Once you assume that it's not there as mere
> decoration and ask yourself what function it might serve,
> just about any reasonable answer will get you two syllables.
> (One natural interpretation, for instance, is that <â>
> represents a long \ah\.)
For me, the long \ah\ interpretation would be the first to come to mind
for a circumflex and might end up running the two vowels together in
something like a long diphtong rather than reading it as two clearly
distinct syllables; I'd prefer Roät as a way to indicate two distinct
syllables, but then I'm being biased towards French orthographical
conventions here (where, incidentally, another option would be Roàt). For
someone used to German, the circumflex version might seem more appropriate.
As for the more general thrust of this thread, I tend to appreciate
having a glossary with pronunciation guide at the back of the book,
although I'll admit to not always following it if the spelling strongly
suggests (for me) a pronunciation other than the one intended by the
author. (I get that with a some of the names in Jordan's Wheel of Time
series).
--
Phil
"Witty or informative statement pending... the Muse is on strike"
gsei...@sentex.net
>On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:03:02 -0700, Alma Hromic Deckert wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:26:55 +0100, Jacey Bedford
>
>[Regarding a name spelt Ghislaine and pronounced \gee-LEN\ with 'hard' \g\]
>>>Yes, that's right.
>>
>> actually the "ghislaine" being french i'd instinctively go for a zh
>> sound for that G - like in Gigi. so THAT name i'ld pronounce something
>> that approximates to "ZHIS-lang"
>
> The \zh\ is correct, at least from a native French speaker's point of
>view. I'm not sure where you'd get the \ng\ part at the end, though. Of
>course, I'd automatically pronounce the whole thing in French -- \zhis-LEN\
>and would never, ever independently arrive at the actual intended
>pronunciation via that particular spelling.
"Ghislain" would give a nasalized "N" at the end, which I think the
poster is trying for with "ng", but the "e" at the end of Ghislaine
kills the nasal and so \zhis-LEN\ looks right to me.
Cheers
Gary
Irina Rempt
(look...@nospam.invalid) wrote:
> It's your book. Your name. You are God.
That doesn't work for everyone. I, for instance, need things to be
internally consistent; if I put something in that doesn't fit properly
(i.e. damages internal consistency) it weakens my conception, and too
much of that (too much can be very little) the whole thing may fall
apart. And I don't know whether it fits before I try it on; I can't
make something to fit beforehand, though I can do thought experiments
and make educated guesses.
The falling-apart happened with one world of my building, and the one
I'm writing in now was briefly in danger of it when I bent too much to
other people's wishes but I caught that in time.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 14-Jun-2004
Jonathan L Cunningham
>In message <37fd35cb34506f0399...@mygate.mailgate.org>,
>Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>>news:1vci2he9sng03$.q8oqrgu6...@40tude.net
>>
>>>> Ah, yes, that does make it more difficult. Okay; could you
>>> change the identifier for the second quarter to <-āt> and
>>> make it <Roāt>? I'd certainly read that as a two-syllable
>>> name.
>Hmm - I'd still read that and pronounce it as 'rote.'
How about Ro'at? <g,d,r,h>
Jonathan
--
Use jlc1 at address, not spam.
Brian M. Scott
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:03:02 -0700, Alma Hromic Deckert wrote:
[...]
>> actually the "ghislaine" being french i'd instinctively go for a zh
>> sound for that G - like in Gigi. so THAT name i'ld pronounce something
>> that approximates to "ZHIS-lang"
> The \zh\ is correct, at least from a native French speaker's point of
> view.
When it's spelled <G_h_islaine>? I'd take that as an old
orthographic variant of <Guislaine> (which does exist), both
with \g\ instead of \gh\. (Note that there are other French
names that have both \g\ and \zh\ forms.)
> I'm not sure where you'd get the \ng\ part at the end, though.
I'd guess that she was thinking of <Gislain> and using the
<ng> as a very rough representation ('this approximates to')
of the nasalized vowel.
[...]
> And in a different part of the thread Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:30:33 +0100, Jacey Bedford
> [Roât as alternate spelling to get Roat pronounced Rowat]
>>> Hmm - I'd still read that and pronounce it as 'rote.'
>> To do so, you have to assume that the circumflex has no
>> function. Once you assume that it's not there as mere
>> decoration and ask yourself what function it might serve,
>> just about any reasonable answer will get you two syllables.
>> (One natural interpretation, for instance, is that <â>
>> represents a long \ah\.)
> For me, the long \ah\ interpretation would be the first to
> come to mind for a circumflex and might end up running
> the two vowels together in something like a long diphtong
> rather than reading it as two clearly distinct syllables;
That would still be better (in terms of Nicky's intent) than
reading it as a homonym of English <rote>.
> I'd prefer Roät as a way to indicate two distinct
> syllables, but then I'm being biased towards French
> orthographical conventions here (where, incidentally,
> another option would be Roàt). For someone used to
> German, the circumflex version might seem more
> appropriate.
I thought of using the diaeresis, since it's often used
precisely to indicate a hiatus between adjacent vowels, but
I decided that it was too easily interpreted as an umlaut,
and I didn't want to suggest a pronunciation \RO-et\.
> As for the more general thrust of this thread, I tend to
> appreciate having a glossary with pronunciation guide at
> the back of the book, although I'll admit to not always
> following it if the spelling strongly suggests (for me) a
> pronunciation other than the one intended by the author.
Pretty much my feeling as well. If the author's clearly
thought about these things and used a writing system that
makes any kind of sense, I'll make a serious effort to
overcome any contrary tendencies that I may have had.
Brian
Phil
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:15:35 +0900, Phil <tls_...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
[Alma getting, approximately, "ZHIS-lang" out of Ghislaine]
>> The \zh\ is correct, at least from a native French speaker's point of
>>view. I'm not sure where you'd get the \ng\ part at the end, though. Of
>>course, I'd automatically pronounce the whole thing in French -- \zhis-LEN\
>>and would never, ever independently arrive at the actual intended
>>pronunciation via that particular spelling.
>
> "Ghislain" would give a nasalized "N" at the end, which I think the
> poster is trying for with "ng",
Ah. That would never have occured to me, since Ghislain gives a nasalised
"i" at the end (IPA [ ĩ ]); there's no \n\ sound at all, at least in
French. Of course, few other languages have nasalised vowels, so speakers
of those languages tend to insert a final \n\ instead.
> but the "e" at the end of Ghislaine kills the nasal and so
> \zhis-LEN\ looks right to me.
French spelling is just as phonetic as English spelling and fails to
reflect what happens; in this particular case, the vowel itself changes
from [ ĩ ] to [ ε ] and an [ n ] sound gets tacked on.*
* Here's hoping the i with a tilde and the epsilon characters in the
brackets above showed up properly...
Brian M. Scott
wrote in <news:1jbt7wld0haf7.1xhmkmtjbnxop$.d...@40tude.net>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:44:25 -0700, gsei...@sentex.net wrote:
[...]
>> "Ghislain" would give a nasalized "N" at the end, which I
>> think the poster is trying for with "ng",
> Ah. That would never have occured to me, since Ghislain
> gives a nasalised "i" at the end (IPA [ ĩ ]); there's no
> \n\ sound at all, at least in French. Of course, few
> other languages have nasalised vowels, so speakers of
> those languages tend to insert a final \n\ instead.
Quite a few other languages have nasalized vowels; it's just
that most of them aren't familiar (Portuguese being the
obvious exception). But I think that you've misidentified
the vowel in question: <ain> should produce nasalized
epsilon, not nasalized [i] (informally, nasalized \eh\, not
nasalized \ee\).
[...]
Brian
Berna Bleeker
> As for the more general thrust of this thread, I tend to appreciate
> having a glossary with pronunciation guide at the back of the book,
> although I'll admit to not always following it if the spelling strongly
> suggests (for me) a pronunciation other than the one intended by the
> author. (I get that with a some of the names in Jordan's Wheel of Time
> series).
I like having a guide at the *front* of the book. Or at least an
indication (note or table of contents) in the front saying there's a
guide in the back. Likewise with glossaries, maps, etc. The first time I
read "Dune", I was *really* annoyed when I discovered, *after* reading
the whole book, that there was a glossary in the back...
Berna
--
( )_( ) Berna M. Bleeker-Slikker
/ . . \ berna....@gmail.com
\ \@/ / http://www.volksliedjes.nl
Phil
[On reading Ghislaine]
> > The \zh\ is correct, at least from a native French speaker's point of
> > view.
>
> When it's spelled <G_h_islaine>? I'd take that as an old
> orthographic variant of <Guislaine> (which does exist), both
> with \g\ instead of \gh\. (Note that there are other French
> names that have both \g\ and \zh\ forms.)
French spelling and pronunciation often bear very little relation to one
another, and nowadays, the 'h' is a simple quirk of orthography that no
longer holds any real meaning, so in this particular case, the name is read
as if it were spelt 'Gislaine', which is an alternate spelling for that
name. I haven't looked into it closely, but at a guess, it might be related
to the fact that in French, "h" is generally a null value (the "ch" and
"ph" digrams being the main exceptions here)
I think Guislaine (where the 's' is silent -- i.e. \gi-LEN\) is now more
commonly spelt Guilaine.
[Regarding a nasalised "N" in Ghislain]
>> Ah. That would never have occured to me, since Ghislain
>> gives a nasalised "i" at the end (IPA [ ĩ ]); there's no
>> \n\ sound at all, at least in French. Of course, few
>> other languages have nasalised vowels, so speakers of
>> those languages tend to insert a final \n\ instead.
>
> Quite a few other languages have nasalized vowels; it's just
> that most of them aren't familiar (Portuguese being the
I forgot to write "major" or "well-known" between "other" and
"languages". ISTR reading that Polish also features nasal vowels.
> obvious exception). But I think that you've misidentified
> the vowel in question: <ain> should produce nasalized
> epsilon, not nasalized [i] (informally, nasalized \eh\, not
> nasalized \ee\).
You're absolutely right. There was obviously too much blood in my
caffeine system when I wrote the above, and my brain confused the most
common spelling of the sound ("in") with the actual vowel.
On a different note, thanks for the Nicaraguan Sign Language link in
another thread. Fascinating reading.
Phil
> Phil wrote:
>> As for the more general thrust of this thread, I tend to appreciate
>> having a glossary with pronunciation guide at the back of the book,
>> although I'll admit to not always following it if the spelling strongly
>> suggests (for me) a pronunciation other than the one intended by the
>> author. (I get that with a some of the names in Jordan's Wheel of Time
>> series).
>
> I like having a guide at the *front* of the book. Or at least an
> indication (note or table of contents) in the front saying there's a
> guide in the back. Likewise with glossaries, maps, etc. The first time I
> read "Dune", I was *really* annoyed when I discovered, *after* reading
> the whole book, that there was a glossary in the back...
I generally prefer glossaries at the back because they tend to be long
and distracting if they're at the front -- I know I can skip it, but for
some reason I find it more annoying to have to skip several pages at the
front before I can dive into the story than to jump to the back of the book
to look something up if I want or need to. I do agree, though, that a short
indication that there is a glossary at the back is nice, but its lack
rarely bothers me as I tend to check the back of the book to see if there
are any appendices either before I begin reading, or when I come across
something that makes me go "hmm, is there going to be a glossary for
this?".
For maps and lists of dramatis personae or genealogy diagrams, which
don't take up more than a page or two, the front of the book is fine, but I
don't mind having them at the back either. Anything that will take up
several pages, though, I prefer having at the back.
Jacey Bedford
Deckert <ang...@vaxer.net> writes
Good!
Then putting the H back into Gillan worked.
Jacey Bedford
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> writes
>On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:30:33 +0100, Jacey Bedford
><look...@nospam.invalid> wrote in
><news:f3q9T$ppmmN...@artifact.demon.co.uk> in
>rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
>> In message <37fd35cb34506f0399...@mygate.mailgate.org>,
>> Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>
>>>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>>>news:1vci2he9sng03$.q8oqrgu6...@40tude.net
>
>>>> Ah, yes, that does make it more difficult. Okay; could you
>>>> change the identifier for the second quarter to <-āt> and
>>>> make it <Roāt>? I'd certainly read that as a two-syllable
>>>> name.
>
>> Hmm - I'd still read that and pronounce it as 'rote.'
>
>To do so, you have to assume that the circumflex has no
>function.
don't speak any other languages fluently - even though I have an exam
certificate to say I could get by in French thirty five years ago.
So if I were reading that name I would read the letters and to me they'd
look like 'rote' and my brain would notice the circumflex but probably
not stop to work out how you meant it to affect the pronunciation.
>Once you assume that it's not there as mere
>decoration and ask yourself what function it might serve,
>just about any reasonable answer will get you two syllables.
>(One natural interpretation, for instance, is that <ā>
>represents a long \ah\.)
If I had to stop to work that out it would pull me out of the story -
which is surely not desirable at all.
So my vote would still be to make it pronounceable by changing the
spelling not adding fancy accents.
Brian M. Scott
wrote in <news:lxu3x6d36zaj.1n0czy9d7edvs$.d...@40tude.net>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
> [On reading Ghislaine]
>>> The \zh\ is correct, at least from a native French
>>> speaker's point of view.
>> When it's spelled <G_h_islaine>? I'd take that as an old
>> orthographic variant of <Guislaine> (which does exist), both
>> with \g\ instead of \gh\. (Note that there are other French
>> names that have both \g\ and \zh\ forms.)
> French spelling and pronunciation often bear very little
> relation to one another, and nowadays, the 'h' is a
> simple quirk of orthography that no longer holds any real
> meaning, so in this particular case, the name is read as
> if it were spelt 'Gislaine', which is an alternate
> spelling for that name. I haven't looked into it closely,
> but at a guess, it might be related to the fact that in
> French, "h" is generally a null value (the "ch" and "ph"
> digrams being the main exceptions here)
Historically <gh> is a northern spelling -- I'd guess that
it's a result of Flemish influence, like the <h> in our
<ghost> -- of [g] before <e> and <i>, exactly equivalent to
<gu> elsewhere (M.K. Pope, From Latin to Modern French,
Sect. 701).
[...]
> [Regarding a nasalised "N" in Ghislain]
>>> Ah. That would never have occured to me, since Ghislain
>>> gives a nasalised "i" at the end (IPA [ ĩ ]); there's no
>>> \n\ sound at all, at least in French. Of course, few
>>> other languages have nasalised vowels, so speakers of
>>> those languages tend to insert a final \n\ instead.
>> Quite a few other languages have nasalized vowels; it's just
>> that most of them aren't familiar (Portuguese being the
> I forgot to write "major" or "well-known" between "other" and
> "languages". ISTR reading that Polish also features nasal vowels.
Yes.
>> obvious exception). But I think that you've misidentified
>> the vowel in question: <ain> should produce nasalized
>> epsilon, not nasalized [i] (informally, nasalized \eh\, not
>> nasalized \ee\).
> You're absolutely right. There was obviously too much
> blood in my caffeine system when I wrote the above, and
> my brain confused the most common spelling of the sound
> ("in") with the actual vowel.
Ah, I wondered if that was it.
> On a different note, thanks for the Nicaraguan Sign
> Language link in another thread. Fascinating reading.
Isn't it nice when nature obliges us with an experiment that
we couldn't have justified cold-bloodedly performing?
Especially when the results are so satisfactory.
Brian
nyra
>
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> [On reading Ghislaine]
> > > The \zh\ is correct, at least from a native French speaker's point of
> > > view.
> >
> > When it's spelled <G_h_islaine>? I'd take that as an old
> > orthographic variant of <Guislaine> (which does exist), both
> > with \g\ instead of \gh\. (Note that there are other French
> > names that have both \g\ and \zh\ forms.)
>
> French spelling and pronunciation often bear very little relation to one
> another,
There is _very_ little ambiguity; french has a lot of "mute" letters
or letter combinations marking a single phoneme, but in general once
you know the rules of pronunciation, you can read alout a completely
unknown french text (even if you don't recognize a single word) with
little to no error.
> and nowadays, the 'h' is a simple quirk of orthography that no
> longer holds any real meaning, so in this particular case, the name is read
> as if it were spelt 'Gislaine', which is an alternate spelling for that
> name.
Are you sure? French today doesn't use the 'h' after the 'g' to mark
the 'hardness', that's correct. I would, however, assume that at least
some speakers of french would notice it, simply because 'gh' is the
common italian construction for a 'hard' g, as in 'spaghetti'.
--
„Der Fürst hat soviel Weisheit in seinem Kopfe wie ich in meinem
Hintern.“
- Th. Müntzer über Georg von Sachsen
Phil
> Phil schrieb:
>>
>> French spelling and pronunciation often bear very little relation to one
>> another,
>
> There is _very_ little ambiguity; french has a lot of "mute" letters
> or letter combinations marking a single phoneme, but in general once
> you know the rules of pronunciation, you can read alout a completely
> unknown french text (even if you don't recognize a single word) with
> little to no error.
Interesting. I'd never thought about from only the reading point of view;
as a native speaker, I don't really dissociate the reading and writing
aspects of spelling and was making the statement from the point of view of
both. I should try asking some of the anglophones I know how difficult they
find it to memorise the rules strictly for reading purposes.
>> and nowadays, the 'h' is a simple quirk of orthography that no
>> longer holds any real meaning, so in this particular case, the name is read
>> as if it were spelt 'Gislaine', which is an alternate spelling for that
>> name.
>
> Are you sure? French today doesn't use the 'h' after the 'g' to mark
> the 'hardness', that's correct. I would, however, assume that at least
> some speakers of french would notice it, simply because 'gh' is the
> common italian construction for a 'hard' g, as in 'spaghetti'.
Spaghetti (and ghetto, also from Italian) are, for me at least, simply
internalised as the spelling for that particular word, adhering to the
conventions of its original language, and don't really register as a
distinct hard \g\ spelling. But then, I a native speaker data point of one,
so I can't say for sure that there aren't some speakers who do, in fact,
notice. See also below...
Moving on to Brian's comments:
>>I haven't looked into it closely,
>> but at a guess, it might be related to the fact that in
>> French, "h" is generally a null value (the "ch" and "ph"
>> digrams being the main exceptions here)
> Historically <gh> is a northern spelling -- I'd guess that
> it's a result of Flemish influence, like the <h> in our
> <ghost> -- of [g] before <e> and <i>, exactly equivalent to
> <gu> elsewhere (M.K. Pope, From Latin to Modern French,
> Sect. 701).
I'm about 10,000km away from the one book I have that might confirm that
guess, but it sounds good: excluding the above-mentioned Italian words, the
only word I can find (with, admittedly, limited resources) that retains
<gh> in that function is "guilde", which according to my dictionary, comes
from old Dutch "gilde" and for which "gilde" and "ghilde" are listed as
alternate spellings (though I must say I've never actually come across
those spellings anywhere).
[Misidentified nasal vowel]
>> You're absolutely right. There was obviously too much
>> blood in my caffeine system when I wrote the above, and
>> my brain confused the most common spelling of the sound
>> ("in") with the actual vowel.
>
> Ah, I wondered if that was it.
Why is it that one never notices these things until *after* the "send"
button gets pressed and someone points it out?
>> On a different note, thanks for the Nicaraguan Sign
>> Language link in another thread. Fascinating reading.
>
> Isn't it nice when nature obliges us with an experiment that
> we couldn't have justified cold-bloodedly performing?
> Especially when the results are so satisfactory.
Very nice indeed.