A question for Mr. P Nielsen Hayden
Christopher Jordan
I'm both new to the group and a brand-spanking new writer (but still
an old fart according to most of my friends!)
My question, and its probably been covered over and over
(unfortunately I wasn't here at the time!) is:
Why are we only allowed to send one manuscript to one publishing house
at a time? Is this a long time tradition in the industry or a new
rule? From what I've heard (which may or may not be correct, sorry)
is that wait time could be up to one year or more before I am able to
submit to another publishing house. At that rate, I could be dead
before getting my book published (in which case I don't think it would
continue to be much of a problem.) : - )
Thanks.
_
CJ
Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe, and he'll believe you.
Tell him a bench has wet paint on it, and he'll have to touch to be sure.
P Nielsen Hayden
>Hello Mr Hayden.
>
>I'm both new to the group and a brand-spanking new writer (but still
>an old fart according to most of my friends!)
>
>My question, and its probably been covered over and over
>(unfortunately I wasn't here at the time!) is:
>
>Why are we only allowed to send one manuscript to one publishing house
>at a time? Is this a long time tradition in the industry or a new
>rule? From what I've heard (which may or may not be correct, sorry)
>is that wait time could be up to one year or more before I am able to
>submit to another publishing house. At that rate, I could be dead
>before getting my book published (in which case I don't think it would
>continue to be much of a problem.) : - )
We've been over this at great length. Yes, it's a bitch. Yes, it's the
only basis on which a lot of houses are willing to look at unsolicited
manuscripts. (An increasing number of houses simply don't look at
unsolicited manuscripts, of course.) Yes, it gets violated a lot anyway.
Yes, editors frequently make exceptions.
The basic fact is that book publishers aren't in the
administering-a-fair-process-for-evaluating-unsolicited-manuscripts
business. They're in the finding-and-publishing-good-and-commercial-books
business. Unsolicited manuscripts are a very minor part of that, despite
famous exceptions.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Jay Random
>
> The basic fact is that book publishers aren't in the
> administering-a-fair-process-for-evaluating-unsolicited-manuscripts
> business. They're in the finding-and-publishing-good-and-commercial-books
> business. Unsolicited manuscripts are a very minor part of that, despite
> famous exceptions.
That's true, in a sense. But every single author out there, from Arthur C.
Clarke on down, was once an unpublished outsider submitting to someone's
slushpile. That's `very minor', I suppose, I dunno.
Or is there someone out there with magical antennae who can identify the Great
Writers of the future before they start submitting, & knock on their doors &
ask them politely to please send something in?
P Nielsen Hayden
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>>
>> The basic fact is that book publishers aren't in the
>> administering-a-fair-process-for-evaluating-unsolicited-manuscripts
>> business. They're in the finding-and-publishing-good-and-commercial-books
>> business. Unsolicited manuscripts are a very minor part of that, despite
>> famous exceptions.
>
>That's true, in a sense. But every single author out there, from Arthur C.
>Clarke on down, was once an unpublished outsider submitting to someone's
>slushpile. That's `very minor', I suppose, I dunno.
And, with all due respect to the many fine authors who started that way,
that's not true.
Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach is
only one of them.
Jay Random
>
> And, with all due respect to the many fine authors who started that way,
> that's not true.
>
> Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach is
> only one of them.
Name another.
Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
Dorothy J Heydt
>Or is there someone out there with magical antennae who can identify the Great
>Writers of the future before they start submitting, & knock on their doors &
>ask them politely to please send something in?
No, of course there isn't, otherwise you would hear about it.
There would be a column in Locus reporting Antennaeman's Latest
Finds. Wagers would be laid. It would be a little like the
Sweepstakes, I suppose, as each writing group and fan club backed
its local favorites and waited for the lightning to strike.
But, as Charles Williams has said, sometimes the altar must be
built in one place in order that the fire from heaven may descend
in another....
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
_A Point of Honor_ is out....
P Nielsen Hayden
Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
things talented publishers and editors do. Along with paying attention to
the slush, keeping up with other publishers' books, reading outside their
core specialty, and generally trying to be thoughtful and aware of the world
around them.
One of the things that talented publishers and editors _don't_ do, I've
observed, is allow belligerent pipsqueaks to bait them into endless games of
Prove You're Not A Bad Guy, along with the accompanying game of Explain The
Adult Universe To Me, While I Complain About Every Detail.
While we're dispensing hints, here's a really, really big one:
How the world works isn't a secret.
Now come back in a couple of years when you've thought it over.
WooF
On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Jay Random wrote:
> Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
> agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
> submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
But reputable agents get things submitted over **our* tramsoms
all the time.
George Scithers of owls...@netaxs.com
Lit'ry Agent
WooF
On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Christopher Jordan wrote:
> Hello Mr Hayden.
>
> I'm both new to the group and a brand-spanking new writer (but still
> an old fart according to most of my friends!)
>
> My question, and its probably been covered over and over
> (unfortunately I wasn't here at the time!) is:
>
> Why are we only allowed to send one manuscript to one publishing house
> at a time? Is this a long time tradition in the industry or a new
> rule? From what I've heard (which may or may not be correct, sorry)
> is that wait time could be up to one year or more before I am able to
> submit to another publishing house. At that rate, I could be dead
> before getting my book published (in which case I don't think it would
> continue to be much of a problem.) : - )
It's quite all right to send a second manuscript to a publisher
who's considering another one of yours. And it's quite all right
for you to send your second manuscript to another publisher while
the first publisher is considering the first one.
George Scithers of owls...@netaxs.com
Jay Random
>
> On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Jay Random wrote:
>
> > Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
> > agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
> > submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
>
> But reputable agents get things submitted over **our* tramsoms
> all the time.
Which is still a matter of unsolicited submission -- to the agent.
Which has been my point all along.
Jay Random
>
> One of the things that talented publishers and editors _don't_ do, I've
> observed, is allow belligerent pipsqueaks to bait them into endless games of
> Prove You're Not A Bad Guy, along with the accompanying game of Explain The
> Adult Universe To Me, While I Complain About Every Detail.
Thanks very much. I am now a `belligerent pipsqueak' from `Buttfuck, Alberta'.
I shall remember that. I shall not descend to your level by telling you what I
think _you_ are.
>
> While we're dispensing hints, here's a really, really big one:
>
> How the world works isn't a secret.
Oh, I see. You know how the world works? My, my, aren't we a genius today?
> Now come back in a couple of years when you've thought it over.
So now you're ordering me to leave this newsgroup, too. My, my, aren't we the
King of the World today?
Philip M. Brewer
>> only one of them.
>
>Name another.
>
>agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
>submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
You may never have heard of one, but there are some. I bet agents pay close
attention when their friends and clients say things like, "There's this guy in
my writing workshop who writes these beautiful stories but he isn't submitting
them anywhere yet." I bet editors pay attention too.
Lots of agents take new clients based on recommendation by other clients.
Knowing that, though, isn't useful information for a beginning writer, so it
mostly doesn't get included in descriptions of how to get an agent. (It isn't
useful for a beginning writer because what would he do with the information?
Try to convince other writers to like his work so that they'll recommend him
to their agents? He'd be way ahead of the game writing for the editors who
can buy his work.)
--
Philip Brewer <pbr...@prairienet.org>
http://www.prairienet.org/~pbrewer
Wendy Shaffer
> WooF wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Jay Random wrote:
> >
> > > Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
> > > agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
> > > submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
> >
> > But reputable agents get things submitted over **our* tramsoms
> > all the time.
>
> Which is still a matter of unsolicited submission -- to the agent.
>
>
> Which has been my point all along.
That may not have been PNH's point, though. His point was that _publishers_
could get along very well without reading slush. He didn't say that
the entire industry could do it (although perhaps it could.)
Some other ways authors can sell things without going through the slush.
-Author X has published several well-received short stories. He
completes a novel, and sends a query letter to an editor saying
"would you like to see my novel?" Editor, who knows Author X by
reputation from these stories,says "Why, yes, of course."
(Note: Manuscripts that the editor has asked to see on the basis
of an (unsolicited) query letter, are, I believe, not considered
as "slush." I'm not sure if PNH is counting them or not when he
is saying that he could get along without reading unsolicited
manuscripts.)
-Author Y manages to get her manuscript read by Published Author.
Published Author says "Wow, this is a great book!" and recommends
the book to his agent or editor.
-Author Z meets an editor at a con and gives such an intriguing
description of her book that the editor asks her to send it in.
When you add up the number of people who manage to land an agent
before going to a publisher, those who have written short stories,
and those who have made connections, that adds up to a significant
proportion of the SF books published per year. (And I should note
that in mainstream fiction, it adds up to all the books published
per year - mainstream publishers _do not_ look at slush.)
Now these avenues do require the budding author to have either the
ability to write short stories, the time and opportunity for making
connections, or at least the ability to write a query letter that a
busy agent will look twice at. These are not things that all authors
possess, not even all authors with decent novel manuscripts. But
enough authors possess them to fill most publishers' lists.
(Recall that most publishers only publish a handful or so of first
novels a year - we're not talking huge numbers of books here.)
Now, if what you're saying is that a system based solely on these
avenues without the option to submit to the slush is unfair to
some writers, I'll agree with you. If you say that publishers who
refuse to look at unsolicited manuscripts will miss out on some
good books, maybe even some very good books, I'll agree with you.
(I can't call to mind any recent bestsellers that were snatched
out of a publisher's slush pile, but I'm sure there have been such.)
You'll notice that PNH is not saying that the slush pile is _useless_
to publishers. If he thought it were useless, he'd quit reading it.
He's simply taking issue with the assertion that it is necessary.
---wendy
--
Wendy A. Shaffer
wsha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Budwebster
>But every single author out there, from Arthur C.
>Clarke on down, was once an unpublished outsider submitting to someone's
>slushpile. That's `very minor', I suppose, I dunno.
Oh, c'mon, Jay, don't be ingenuous. You know the answer to this as well as
anybody else does: for every Clarke in the slush there are *thousands* of
others who'll never sell but will keep on writing and submitting.
Patrick's comment referred to the numbers, not the occasional standouts.
Bud Webster
Writer - Editor - Proofreader: Think of me as an infinite number of Mexican
stuffed-frog bands.
The Nebula-nominated "The Ballad of Kansas McGriff" is now available as a
limited edition chapbook - ask me for details.
PWrede6492
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>>
>> Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach is
>> only one of them.
>
>Name another.
I know quite a few authors who "showed up" when an established writer said to
his/her editor (or to an editor friend) "There's this friend of mine who's
working on a cool thing; wanna see it?" No slush pile.
I know a couple who took workshops from editors who took them aside afterward
and said "Send me something." No slush pile.
I know at least one author whose first sale came because an editor who *didn't*
buy it took it over to a different editor (at a different magazine) and said "I
can't buy this, but you should look at it; I think it's your sort of thing" and
the second editor bought it. Slush pile, sort of, but not from the point of
view of the second editor.
I know at least two authors (one of them me) who sent in short stories to
in-house anthologies, whose editors said "I like this short piece; do you
happen to have anything longer?" Both of us sold. Not exactly slush pile, not
for the novel ms., anyway.
I know another who read an unpublished piece at an open mike at a convention;
it was bought by an editor in the audience. No slush pile.
I know at least two others who self-published books which were successful
enough to attract attention from large houses (and in one case, to start a
bidding war for the author's next ms.). No slush pile.
I also know several who got agents by getting recommended, rather than by going
through the agent's usual slush pile.
That's more than one.
Patricia C. Wrede
Jay Random
>
> >> Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach is
> >> only one of them.
> >
> >Name another.
> >
> >agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
> >submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
>
> attention when their friends and clients say things like, "There's this guy in
> my writing workshop who writes these beautiful stories but he isn't submitting
> them anywhere yet." I bet editors pay attention too.
But cf. Holly Lisle's webpage, in which she explains that her agent forbids
her, as a defence against possible lawsuits, to read other people's mss. at
all, & requires his other clients to follow the same policy. This is an
increasingly common phenomenon.
Actually, I have never heard of a case in which a writer has been `discovered'
in this way, & those of you who keep saying that it happens have never given
an example. I remain highly skeptical.
Jay Random
>
> Jay Random <j.ra...@home.com> sez:
>
> >But every single author out there, from Arthur C.
> >Clarke on down, was once an unpublished outsider submitting to someone's
> >slushpile. That's `very minor', I suppose, I dunno.
>
> Oh, c'mon, Jay, don't be ingenuous. You know the answer to this as well as
> anybody else does: for every Clarke in the slush there are *thousands* of
> others who'll never sell but will keep on writing and submitting.
>
> Patrick's comment referred to the numbers, not the occasional standouts.
I'm not being ingenuous. Going through _someone's_ slushpile, whether a book
editor's, a magazine editor's, or an agent's, is still by far the most common
way for a new author to break into print -- & it is the _only_ method
available to most people. I was taking issue with the idea that this is `very
minor', given that most of the writers in the field went through this process themselves.
Victoria Strauss
> > Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach is
> > only one of them.
>
> Name another.
>
> Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
> agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
> submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
No, reputable agents don't solicit. But they do take writers who've
never published. Such as me, a long time ago. And a friend of mine,
fairly recently. And, even more recently, someone I met via a mailing
list (whose agent just sold her 3-book series to Tor).
-Victoria
--
Victoria Strauss
THE ARM OF THE STONE (Avon Eos 1998)
Homepage: http://www.sff.net/people/victoriastrauss
Writer Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/Warnings.html
P Nielsen Hayden
>Jay Random wrote:
>
>> > Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach is
>> > only one of them.
>>
>> Name another.
>>
>> Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
>> agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
>> submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
>
>No, reputable agents don't solicit. But they do take writers who've
>never published. Such as me, a long time ago. And a friend of mine,
>fairly recently. And, even more recently, someone I met via a mailing
>list (whose agent just sold her 3-book series to Tor).
Just out of curiosity, would that last be Jacqueline Carey?
Brenda
Tom Hise wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:37:03 GMT, Jay Random <j.ra...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >What chip on my shoulder? I don't like being personally insulted in answer to
> >a question.
>
> <<snip>>
>
> >(No, I'm not going to retail the whole incident. You may jump to your own
> >conclusions about what actually happened.)
>
> Didn't we go through all this last year? Is this Seasonal Affective
> Disorder? Get a sun lamp!
>
> --Tom
>
My god, Tom, you must've read my mind!
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD, from Tor Books
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Bruce Sterling Woodcock
p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
>things talented publishers and editors do.
So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game? This
sounds to me like, despite what is often reported elsewhere, there *is* a
secret handshake. So what's the secret? Where do I go and what do I do,
outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
have an interesting book in me?
Bruce
Dan Goodman
>Philip M. Brewer wrote:
>>
>> >> Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach is
>> >> only one of them.
>> >
>> >Name another.
>> >
>> >Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
>> >agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
>> >submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
>>
>> attention when their friends and clients say things like, "There's this guy in
>> my writing workshop who writes these beautiful stories but he isn't submitting
>> them anywhere yet." I bet editors pay attention too.
>
>But cf. Holly Lisle's webpage, in which she explains that her agent forbids
>her, as a defence against possible lawsuits, to read other people's mss. at
>all, & requires his other clients to follow the same policy. This is an
>increasingly common phenomenon.
That's _one_ agent. This is the first I've heard of _any_ agent having
that policy.
Note that this "increasingly common phenomenon" does not seem to have hit
the people who've been teaching at the two Clarions, or at other writing
workshops.
>Actually, I have never heard of a case in which a writer has been `discovered'
>in this way, & those of you who keep saying that it happens have never given
>an example. I remain highly skeptical.
I suspect Pat Wrede will be able to come up with some examples.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
PMccutc103
>Thanks very much. I am now a `belligerent pipsqueak' from `Buttfuck,
>Alberta'.
>I shall remember that. I shall not descend to your level by telling you what
>I
>think _you_ are.
Jay, just out of curiosity, does the weight of the chip on your shoulder cause
problems with your posture? Do you have to see a massage therapist? A
chiropractor? Do you have special streteching exercises to do every morning?
Inquiring minds want to know.
--
Pete McCutchen
Jay Random
>
> >Actually, I have never heard of a case in which a writer has been `discovered'
> >in this way, & those of you who keep saying that it happens have never given
> >an example. I remain highly skeptical.
>
> I suspect Pat Wrede will be able to come up with some examples.
As it happens, I've just read a post in which she purported to list examples,
but named no names. I'm not inclined to doubt her veracity, but I'd say the
evidence is vitiated by the anonymity. If these cases were cited by anyone
else, I'd put them down as `friend of a cousin of a sister's hairdresser'
stories, i.e. urban legends.
Jay Random
>
> That's _one_ agent. This is the first I've heard of _any_ agent having
> that policy.
The agent in question is Russell Galen. URL for the exact reference:
http://www.sff.net/people/Holly.Lisle/faqs10.html#4
Even if that's only one agent, that's one hell of an agent. I also understand
(from Dave Duncan) that Richard Curtis at least urges his clients not to read
unpublished work.
Dan Goodman
Let me clarify. I have reason to believe that she would be able to list
_specific_ examples, by name.
That reason being? She was in a writing group (Scribblies -- I believe it
had one or two earlier names) at a time when she had been published but
not all the other members had been. If I recall correctly, all of the
members ended up getting published. At least a few of them got published
by the same publisher, and/or agented by the same agent.
Jay Random
What chip on my shoulder? I don't like being personally insulted in answer to
a question. Nor do I like being obscenely insulted upon first meeting someone
in person, especially before I have so much as opened my mouth. (Yes, sir,
that did indeed happen, & it was Mr. Nielsen Hayden who delivered the
obscenity in question. I have refrained from mentioning it in this newsgroup
until now, in what now appears to have been a misguided attempt at common courtesy.)
Jay Random
>
> Let me clarify. I have reason to believe that she would be able to list
> _specific_ examples, by name.
Fair enough. Except that she is not willing to do so -- which is her right, of course.
> That reason being? She was in a writing group (Scribblies -- I believe it
> had one or two earlier names) at a time when she had been published but
> not all the other members had been. If I recall correctly, all of the
> members ended up getting published. At least a few of them got published
> by the same publisher, and/or agented by the same agent.
Here we have something sufficiently concrete for me to accept it as evidence.
Thank you.
Such writing groups, however, are not common. I'm not sure I actually know of
one that included published writers, except by occasional hearsay. And if Mr.
Galen has his way, the practice of referrals to agents will cease in any case:
very difficult to convincingly refer someone whose work you're not allowed to read.
EllenDat
>
>Philip M. Brewer wrote:
>>
>> >> Good writers show up in all sorts of ways; the over-the-transom approach
>is
>> >> only one of them.
>> >
>> >Name another.
>> >
>> >Hint: If an author was originally represented by an agent, he landed that
>> >agent somehow; & I have never heard of any reputable agent who solicited
>> >submissions from writers who had never submitted work anywhere before.
>>
>> You may never have heard of one, but there are some. I bet agents pay
>close
>> attention when their friends and clients say things like, "There's this guy
>in
>> my writing workshop who writes these beautiful stories but he isn't
>submitting
>> them anywhere yet." I bet editors pay attention too.
>
>But cf. Holly Lisle's webpage, in which she explains that her agent forbids
>her, as a defence against possible lawsuits, to read other people's mss. at
>all, & requires his other clients to follow the same policy. This is an
>increasingly common phenomenon.
>
>`discovered'
>in this way, & those of you who keep saying that it happens have never given
>an example. I remain highly skeptical.
>
it is your looking for evidence of....however, I think you trying to figure out
if agents or editors listen to recommendations from their clients or their
authors about new writers. Of COURSE they do guys. I've bought two stories from
Clarion students (not mine) while they were still at Clarion--Ted CHiang's
"Tower of Babel" was sent to me by Tom Disch and Chimaera by Dan Abraham was
just bought by me for an anthology after it was recommended to me by George RR
Martin. John Shirley got William Gibson to send "Johnny Mnemonic" to me. I
recommend authors to agents all the time. That the business. Perhaps Russ Galen
and Richard Curtis don't want their clients busy reading novel mss by strangers
instead of writing. I heard that Poppy Brite would read things that strangers
asked her to read early in her career. And I'm sure Richard reprimanded her
--not for legal reasons--but because it's a time sink. It's a nice sentiment
for unpublished writers think that published writers OWE them something by
reading their fiction but it's baloney. Writers who teach workshops give
enough of their time back to the field just by participating.
Reading stories/novels by your students is a whole different thing.
Ellen Datlow
Editor
Event Horizon
http://www.e-horizon.com/eventhorizon
Dan Goodman
>Dan Goodman wrote:
>>
>> Let me clarify. I have reason to believe that she would be able to list
>> _specific_ examples, by name.
>
>Fair enough. Except that she is not willing to do so -- which is her right, of course.
>
>> That reason being? She was in a writing group (Scribblies -- I believe it
>> had one or two earlier names) at a time when she had been published but
>> not all the other members had been. If I recall correctly, all of the
>> members ended up getting published. At least a few of them got published
>> by the same publisher, and/or agented by the same agent.
>
>Here we have something sufficiently concrete for me to accept it as evidence.
>Thank you.
>
>Such writing groups, however, are not common.
There are several in the Twin Cities.
I'm not sure I actually know of
>one that included published writers, except by occasional hearsay. And if Mr.
>Galen has his way, the practice of referrals to agents will cease in any case:
>very difficult to convincingly refer someone whose work you're not
allowed to read.
There's a _lot_ of difference between "if Mr. Galen has his way, that
route will be closed" and "that route is not presently open."
And it seems to me you were saying the latter. If you weren't, then I
suggest you check what you said to see how it differs from what you meant
to say.
Tom Hise
>
>What chip on my shoulder? I don't like being personally insulted in answer to
>a question.
<<snip>>
>(No, I'm not going to retail the whole incident. You may jump to your own
>conclusions about what actually happened.)
Didn't we go through all this last year? Is this Seasonal Affective
Disorder? Get a sun lamp!
--Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you
for they may have different tastes." G. B Shaw
---------------------------------------------------------------
To reply via e-mail remove the x from my address in the header.
Gary Farber
[. . .]
: What chip on my shoulder? I don't like being personally insulted in answer to
: a question. Nor do I like being obscenely insulted upon first meeting someone
: in person, especially before I have so much as opened my mouth. (Yes, sir,
: that did indeed happen, & it was Mr. Nielsen Hayden who delivered the
: obscenity in question. I have refrained from mentioning it in this newsgroup
: until now, in what now appears to have been a misguided attempt at common courtesy.)
: (No, I'm not going to retail the whole incident. You may jump to your own
: conclusions about what actually happened.)
I humbly ask for you to retail the whole incident. I look forward to
every degree of the offense. I want to read all about it. Every detail.
Every word. Every descriptive aspect. Please relate it and tell us about
it. Do it. Go for it. I'm sure it is entirely relevant. Please please
please please tell us of it.
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US
Lisa Leutheuser
>Dan Goodman wrote:
>>
>> That reason being? She was in a writing group (Scribblies -- I believe it
>> had one or two earlier names) at a time when she had been published but
>> not all the other members had been. If I recall correctly, all of the
>> members ended up getting published. At least a few of them got published
>> by the same publisher, and/or agented by the same agent.
>
>Here we have something sufficiently concrete for me to accept it as evidence.
>Thank you.
>
>one that included published writers, except by occasional hearsay. And if Mr.
Well, they do exist. Out of the eight current members of my
group, four have published short stories and novels in SF&F,
and others have published poetry, comics, and children's lit.
It's incredibly encouraging to see your friends sell stories
that you helped workshop. You come to believe that, in spite
of all the doom and gloom in the industry, it really is
possible to succeed.
Lisa Leutheuser
eal (at) umich.edu
http://www.umich.edu/~eal
P.S. to see how we operate: http://www.umich.edu/~eal/writing/)
Dan Goodman
1) Writing classes in your area -- if there are classes in what you want
to write.
2) Writing workshops. You meet people, people see your work.
3) Writing groups.
4) If you can write short stories as well as you can write novels, submit
them -- there are fewer barriers to selling short work. The results are
likely to vary. If you get something accepted for one of the Starlight
original anthologies, I think it's safe to say that Patrick Nielsen Hayden
would take notice. Other hand, a story sold to a magazine which prints it
but then never gets that issue distributed isn't likely to get you
noticed.
Christopher Jordan
_
CJ
Psychiatrists say that 1 of 4 people are mentally ill. Check 3 friends. If they're OK, you're not.
Christopher Jordan
wrote:
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>>
>> One of the things that talented publishers and editors _don't_ do, I've
>> observed, is allow belligerent pipsqueaks to bait them into endless games of
>> Prove You're Not A Bad Guy, along with the accompanying game of Explain The
>> Adult Universe To Me, While I Complain About Every Detail.
>
>Thanks very much. I am now a `belligerent pipsqueak' from `Buttfuck, Alberta'.
>I shall remember that. I shall not descend to your level by telling you what I
>think _you_ are.
>>
>> While we're dispensing hints, here's a really, really big one:
>>
>> How the world works isn't a secret.
>
>Oh, I see. You know how the world works? My, my, aren't we a genius today?
>
>> Now come back in a couple of years when you've thought it over.
>
>So now you're ordering me to leave this newsgroup, too. My, my, aren't we the
>King of the World today?
Let me get this straight, being the new guy on the block.
Mr. Random. You are a writer. You are alienating a well-known,
top-notch editor from one of the major (Tor?) publishing houses of
SFF.
Am I missing anything here. You _do_ wish to publish your work, do you
not? Do you also aggravate other SFF publishers as well. Perhaps you
mail-bomb Literary Agents in your spare time as not to leave anyone
out. Noramlly, I'd say this is not the best line of reasoning.
However, perhaps you have an ace in the hole, a brother/sister/cousin
who owns a large publishing house?
Just wondering. Now, let me have it. Initiate me into the club.
_
CJ
It may be that your sole purpose in life is to simply serve as a warning to others.
Christopher Jordan
>>But cf. Holly Lisle's webpage, in which she explains that her agent forbids
>>her, as a defence against possible lawsuits, to read other people's mss. at
>>all, & requires his other clients to follow the same policy. This is an
>>increasingly common phenomenon.
>
>>Actually, I have never heard of a case in which a writer has been `discovered'
>>in this way, & those of you who keep saying that it happens have never given
>>an example. I remain highly skeptical.
Do all the agents, writers, publishers, etc around the world report
directly to you, minute by minute? You are aware of everything that
goes on, day by day, in New York, London, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc.
Must be a hell of a phone bill, all those people reporting to you all
the way to Canada.
Rachael M. Lininger
On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Bruce Sterling Woodcock wrote:
>In article <77o22d$jgj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
>>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
>>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
>>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
>>things talented publishers and editors do.
>
>So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game? This
>sounds to me like, despite what is often reported elsewhere, there *is* a
>secret handshake. So what's the secret? Where do I go and what do I do,
>outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
>have an interesting book in me?
Not behaving like a complete ass is usually considered a good start. I
dunno. Maybe some people thinks it makes them memorable.
Hint: It does.
However, people being people, the usual expectation is that
interesting books come from interesting writers, not tiresome whiners.
Which can cause some head-spinning when you meet your idol and, well,
ever read _Blackburn_? But why _should_ an editor bother with a
(potentially talented) jerk when there are (potentially talented) nice
people to deal with? It's not like there's a shortage of good
manuscripts.
I do not believe that there's a secret handshake, or a password, or an
entry fee, except maybe chocolate for Certain Magazines. I do believe
that there are _people_ on the other end of the line, and that my
being a person to them can't hurt, but that's about it.
Rachael
--
Rachael M. Lininger | "It's not so much do what you like
lininger@ | as it is that you like what you do."
virtu.sar.usf.edu | _Sunday in the Park with George_
Jay Random
>
> Do all the agents, writers, publishers, etc around the world report
> directly to you, minute by minute? You are aware of everything that
> goes on, day by day, in New York, London, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc.
> Must be a hell of a phone bill, all those people reporting to you all
> the way to Canada.
Far from it. The very people who are claiming that there are all these ways to
get published _without_ submitting material to an agent or editor are signally
failing to report any instances of its having been done.
Jay Random
>
> Let me get this straight, being the new guy on the block.
>
> Mr. Random. You are a writer. You are alienating a well-known,
> top-notch editor from one of the major (Tor?) publishing houses of
> SFF.
No, that was done a long time ago. He has long since lost the ability to read
anything except `belligerent pipsqueak' in anything I say, or to respond civilly.
> Am I missing anything here. You _do_ wish to publish your work, do you
> not? Do you also aggravate other SFF publishers as well. Perhaps you
> mail-bomb Literary Agents in your spare time as not to leave anyone
> out.
As Forrest Gump said, `I may be a idiot, but I ain't _stupid_.' Obviously Mr.
Nielsen Hayden despises me, as he has made clear in person. No, to the very
best of my knowledge, no other editor & no agent has cause to regard me with
such detestation. I am a disagreeable person in most respects, but I know only
two persons who exhibit this paranoiac tendency to regard everything I say as
a stupid & malicious attack. Mr. Nielsen Hayden is one; the other is someone
of my acquaintance who decided some years ago to spread unfounded & malicious
rumours among my friends & customers -- & who, not incidentally, is only
doubtfully sane.
> Noramlly, I'd say this is not the best line of reasoning.
`Lines of reasoning' have nothing to do with the case. Mr. Nielsen Hayden, &
various other people in this newsgroup, have decided that I am a waste of
space. I take offence at this, almost as if I were human. I would go away, but
I do not intend to give these people the satisfaction of banishing me from a
public forum.
> However, perhaps you have an ace in the hole, a brother/sister/cousin
> who owns a large publishing house?
The only ace in the hole I can possibly have is my writing -- which no one in
this newsgroup is qualified to judge, as none of them have ever seen it, &
none wish to. I hope eventually to be able to say with the force of financial
consequence that this is their loss.
> Just wondering. Now, let me have it. Initiate me into the club.
What `it' were you expecting me to let you have?
Jay Random
>
> Patricia Wrede has mentioned some examples of people who got published
> without going through the slush pile. If you don't doubt her veracity
> then you don't really need names. If you do need names then that
> doesn't say much for your confidence in her veracity.
`Published' doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Without knowing any names, I
have no idea whether she is referring to people who managed to get one short
story printed by riding on the coattails of a friend who was a professional
writer, or people who have actually gone on to make careers of it. As there
are far more people who have been published at some time or other than actual
working professional writers, I think it is reasonable to have doubts on that point.
tip...@my-dejanews.com
> What chip on my shoulder? I don't like being personally insulted in answer to
> a question. Nor do I like being obscenely insulted upon first meeting someone
> in person, especially before I have so much as opened my mouth. (Yes, sir,
> that did indeed happen, & it was Mr. Nielsen Hayden who delivered the
> obscenity in question. I have refrained from mentioning it in this newsgroup
> until now, in what now appears to have been a misguided attempt at common
courtesy.)
Aw man. C'mon, Jay, really now. You dared the guy to name you a way other
than slush for new writers to break in. It wasn't a question. As I recall,
the wording went like: "Name another." That's a dare, and likely one that
can never met to your satisfaction. A dare with preconceptions is hardly a
question.
(Oh and by the way, I'll name you another way a new writer can get a leg up
on the slush: You're standing on the ladder right now! Right here! Except
you're standing on it with a saw in one hand.)
> (No, I'm not going to retail the whole incident. You may jump to your own
> conclusions about what actually happened.)
Inviting people to jump to their own conclusions without any information is
hardly fair to either of you, is it?
For what it's worth, Jay, I know the incident of which you speak. People have
said far, far worse to me and were answered with a laugh on my part. Frankly,
it seemed like a bit of humor to me.
Tippi N Blevins
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <77o22d$jgj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
>>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
>>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
>>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
>>things talented publishers and editors do.
>
>So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game?
You _are_ in. What on earth do you think I'm saying?
>This
>sounds to me like, despite what is often reported elsewhere, there *is* a
>secret handshake.
Then you're getting something very strange from what I said.
>So what's the secret? Where do I go and what do I do,
>outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
>have an interesting book in me?
Have you no common sense? There is no secret and no system to game here,
just publishers and editors staying alert in the real world. Why is this so
hard to understand?
Graydon
Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
>>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
>>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
>>things talented publishers and editors do.
>
Ur?
What do you think Patrick is talking about?
I think he's talking about just that, social connections that can
identify who is writing stuff that a bunch of people have read and
liked. Editors need all the variety amplifier they can get when it
comes to cutting down their rejection rate, after all.
--
"But how powerful, how stimulating to the very faculty which produced
it, was the invention of the adjective: no spell or incantation in
Faerie is more potent." -- "On Fairy-Stories", J.R.R. Tolkien
Graydon
Why are you trying to extract certainty from the process?
You really seem to want to be told what to do that will make it
_certain_ that you will be published; there is no such mechanism.
You also seem, in this specific instance, to be assuming that writers
reliably and religiously do what their agent tells them to do. This
would appear to be a questionable assumption.
PWrede6492
>As it happens, I've just read a post in which she purported to list examples,
>but named no names. I'm not inclined to doubt her veracity, but I'd say the
>evidence is vitiated by the anonymity.
Oh, the evidence is vitiated, but you're not doubting my veracity? My, my.
You know, I always thought that using words like "purported" and phrases like
"her evidence is vitiated" were, indeed, casting doubt on someone's
truthfulness. I do rather strongly suspect that I am not alone in this
interpretation.
I hate naming names for a variety of reasons, and I think you are simply
looking for reasons not to believe stuff. But here goes.
Both I and Lillian Carl sold books to Terri Windling at Ace Berkley after
having submitted short stories to one or another of her anthologies and having
her ask "Got anything longer?"
I was the first member of the Scribblies to sell a book; I recommended all the
other members of my writers group to the attention of both my editor (Terri,
see above) and my agent (Valerie Smith). Five out of the six ended up with
them, including Pamela Dean, Steven Brust, Emma Bull, Will Shetterly, and Kara
Dalkey; after a while it's difficult to say just who was recommending whom, but
after me, none of us went through the traditional slush pile (and as I noted
above, my novel didn't exactly go through the slush at Ace in the usual
fashion, either, though my first four or five rejections on that book certainly
went through the traditional slush pile at other houses.) I've since
recommended quite a few other authors to quite a few different editors; some
have sold, some not. I'm afraid I haven't kept a list.
More recently, Pamela and I jointly recommended Raphael Carter to our agent,
who took her on before he'd actually sold anything, and subsequently sold
Raphael's first novel, THE FORTUNATE FALL, to Patrick at Tor. I know quite a
few other published authors who've done similar recommending for beginners who
are now published, but I am not going to name them because I refuse to be
responsible for them getting a deluge of "read my novel" e-mail. If this is a
problem for you, tough. (And for those who are considering e-mailing me --
don't.)
My friend Elise Matthesen read a short story (or maybe it was a poem) at
Minicon, which was bought by Jane Yolen (who was in the audience) for one of
her anthologies.
I can't tell you the name of the author whose story got carried from one
magazine's office to another, because Stan Schmidt didn't provide that
information when he told that story at Context about four years back. But he
was the editor who ended up buying it.
And I forget the names of the two authors who self-published and attracted
big-house attention, but one lives here and ought to be fairly easy to look up
if I wanted to bother -- something like Priestly, I think, and he did the book
as a trade paperback with a lot of orange on the cover -- and the other is
another "anonymous" story that acquiring editor Susan Allison told me in
passing once when I asked her what neat new stuff she'd found lately.
I fail to see why naming names makes any of this more plausible, and I do not
intend to respond to any more of your posts. I don't have the time or energy
to make sure all of my answers are to a level of detail that is acceptable and
believable to you, and if I had either, I would also have better things to
spend them on.
Patricia C. Wrede
Jay Random
>
> Both I and Lillian Carl sold books to Terri Windling at Ace Berkley after
> having submitted short stories to one or another of her anthologies and having
> her ask "Got anything longer?"
But you did submit to the anthologies. Were you invited to do that? If not,
that's another slushpile -- further back in the process.
> And I forget the names of the two authors who self-published and attracted
> big-house attention, but one lives here and ought to be fairly easy to look up
> if I wanted to bother -- something like Priestly, I think, and he did the book
> as a trade paperback with a lot of orange on the cover -- and the other is
> another "anonymous" story that acquiring editor Susan Allison told me in
> passing once when I asked her what neat new stuff she'd found lately.
That's actually very interesting, & I thank you for the information. I keep
hearing that self-publishing is simply not an option for fiction. (IIRC, SFWA
does not consider self-published books for purposes of determining eligibility
for membership, regardless of sales figures.)
> I fail to see why naming names makes any of this more plausible,
Because, as I said elsewhere in this thread, there is a very significant
difference between someone who once sold a short story by riding on someone
else's coattails & a consistently successful professional writer. The fact
that I _recognized_ a good many of the names you mentioned establishes your
point very solidly, in a way that your merely saying that people have been
published by such means does not.
Jay Random
>
> Why are you trying to extract certainty from the process?
>
> You really seem to want to be told what to do that will make it
> _certain_ that you will be published; there is no such mechanism.
No. If you will recall, I was merely pointing out that `Surprise us!' is not
advice with any content that can actually be followed. Mr. Nielsen Hayden
chose to ignore my follow-up question & call me an idiot, & the rest of you
signed up for the goon squad.
> You also seem, in this specific instance, to be assuming that writers
> reliably and religiously do what their agent tells them to do. This
> would appear to be a questionable assumption.
No doubt it appears to be questionable from where you stand; but if you have
specific information to the contrary, it hasn't come my way. Mr. Galen has
been known to extract some extraordinary changes of behaviour from his clients
-- including giving up one genre entirely for another. (He wrote an article
once for _Writer's Digest_ explaining how he got one client, McQuay I think it
may have been, to give up SF altogether & start writing thrillers to improve
his sales.)
Jay Random
>
> For what it's worth, Jay, I know the incident of which you speak. People have
> said far, far worse to me and were answered with a laugh on my part. Frankly,
> it seemed like a bit of humor to me.
He himself immediately twigged that he had been offensive. It now appears that
he was doing so deliberately.
It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if I had said I
was _not_ `the Jay Random from Buttfuck, Alberta'. Very likely I would have
been regaled with stories of what a clueless & pugnacious idiot I am -- in the
third person.
I don't know how things stand in New York, but where I come from, one does not
open a conversation with a stranger with any sentence containing the word `buttfuck'.
Bruce Sterling Woodcock
p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>In <77p8rb$i...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirb...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>>In article <77o22d$jgj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>>
>>>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
>>>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
>>>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
>>>things talented publishers and editors do.
>>
>>So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game?
>
>You _are_ in. What on earth do you think I'm saying?
Umm, I *think* you said above that a good number of writers get in through
other than the slush pile, which is what new writers are commonly told they
have to trudge through. So, I was looking for examples of that (someone
else pointed out a few).
>>This
>>sounds to me like, despite what is often reported elsewhere, there *is* a
>>secret handshake.
>
>Then you're getting something very strange from what I said.
Perhaps. Why not use this space to elaborate, then?
>>So what's the secret? Where do I go and what do I do,
>>outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
>>have an interesting book in me?
>
>Have you no common sense?
I'll restrain myself from the impulse to quip back, and simply say, "Yes."
>There is no secret and no system to game here,
>just publishers and editors staying alert in the real world. Why is this so
>hard to understand?
I understand this entirely. However, your earlier post suggested that a
number of writers got in through the process of "publishers and editors
staying alert" to things *other* than the slush pile, like friends of
other writers, parties, etc. I was trying to get more information about
this, and hopefully generate some discussion about how this seems to at
least partially contradict the "work your way up through the slush pile"
advice.
Bruce
Bruce Sterling Woodcock
gra...@lara.on.ca (Graydon) wrote:
>In article <77p8rb$i...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
>Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <77o22d$jgj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>>>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
>>>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
>>>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
>>>things talented publishers and editors do.
>>
>>So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game? This
>
>Ur?
>
>What do you think Patrick is talking about?
Exactly what he is talking about.
>I think he's talking about just that, social connections that can
>identify who is writing stuff that a bunch of people have read and
>liked. Editors need all the variety amplifier they can get when it
>comes to cutting down their rejection rate, after all.
Well, I was hoping for more information. I mean, sure, I could try
to corner some editor at a convention party and pitch them this
Really Cool Idea (tm), but my impression was that they would not
appreciate this too much.
Bruce
Gary Farber
EllenDat <elle...@aol.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: Of COURSE they do guys.
You're going to give people the wrong idea, Ellen. :-)
[. . . .]
Gary Farber
: In article <77o22d$jgj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
: p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
:>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
:>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
:>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
:>things talented publishers and editors do.
: So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game? This
: sounds to me like, despite what is often reported elsewhere, there *is* a
: secret handshake. So what's the secret? Where do I go and what do I do,
: outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
: have an interesting book in me?
Well, you could become a famous physicist. Or you could run for Governor
of Minnesota, and come in at least third. Or you could become well known
for your popular science books. Or you could do a lot of brilliant fan
writing. Or you could become well-known for your talent as a folk-singer.
Or you could travel the world, work fourteen fascinating jobs, have all
sorts of amazing adventures, which you tell as brilliant anecdotes and
write up in crisp and vivid language. Or you could achieve fame by
creating and writing a best-selling comic book for years. Or you could
become a well-known sf convention runner, and become famous for your
brilliant analysis as a panelist, and then become well-known for your
superb criticism. Or you could become an astronaut who writes vividly
about his experience.
Really, there's no end of ways to come to people's attention.
They tend to require talent, of course. That's the "secret."
Gary Farber
: Graydon wrote:
:>
:> Why are you trying to extract certainty from the process?
:>
:> You really seem to want to be told what to do that will make it
:> _certain_ that you will be published; there is no such mechanism.
: No. If you will recall, I was merely pointing out that `Surprise us!' is not
: advice with any content that can actually be followed.
It is advice that can be followed: just not in the way that you are asking
for. It demonstrably works: Patrick is surprised by stuff, and he buys
it. He buys it when it's good enough. Now, go write stuff that is good
enough. Follow that advice. Cease looking for instructions along the
lines of "this week I'm buying fantasies about left-handed redhaired
dwarves who are Chinese, but written in a magical realism style" or "next
week I'll be buying hard sf about quarks whose strangeness is mightier
than their charm, set on the Schwarzfeld radius of a quantum black hole,"
or "the *real* way to get me to read your stuff is to sleep with my
sister, or speak the magic password 'Yngvie is a louse.'"
: Mr. Nielsen Hayden
: chose to ignore my follow-up question & call me an idiot, & the rest of you
: signed up for the goon squad.
Have you considered therapy for paranoia?
[. . . .]
Victoria Strauss
> Just out of curiosity, would that last be Jacqueline Carey?
Yes! And I can't wait to read her books...
-Victoria
--
Victoria Strauss
THE ARM OF THE STONE (Avon Eos 1998)
Homepage: http://www.sff.net/people/victoriastrauss
Writer Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/Warnings.html
tip...@my-dejanews.com
Jay Random <j.ra...@home.com> wrote:
> tip...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > For what it's worth, Jay, I know the incident of which you speak. People
have
> > said far, far worse to me and were answered with a laugh on my part.
Frankly,
> > it seemed like a bit of humor to me.
>
> He himself immediately twigged that he had been offensive. It now appears that
> he was doing so deliberately.
I didn't say it wasn't offensive humor. I said it was humor. Plain old
offensive would have been to say: "What are you doing *away* from Buttfuck,
Alberta?" Or, "Get *back* there right away!"
> It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if I had said I
> was _not_ `the Jay Random from Buttfuck, Alberta'. Very likely I would have
> been regaled with stories of what a clueless & pugnacious idiot I am -- in the
> third person.
Hey, like Dolly Parton says, there's no such thing as bad publicity.
> I don't know how things stand in New York, but where I come from, one does not
> open a conversation with a stranger with any sentence containing the word
`buttfuck'.
But--but--but, Jay, you two *aren't* strangers. You might not be best
buddies, but you're at least acquainted with the man, and he with you.
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <77q2o1$3jh$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
>>In <77p8rb$i...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirb...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>>>In article <77o22d$jgj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>>> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
>>>>books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
>>>>the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
>>>>things talented publishers and editors do.
>>>
>>>So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game?
>>
>>You _are_ in. What on earth do you think I'm saying?
>
>Umm, I *think* you said above that a good number of writers get in through
>other than the slush pile, which is what new writers are commonly told they
>have to trudge through.
There's where you've gone wrong. I certainly never told anyone they "have
to trudge through" the slush pile. I merely observe that it's one way to
get published. If you want to try another, be my guest. Maybe it'll work.
Maybe not.
>>>This
>>>sounds to me like, despite what is often reported elsewhere, there *is* a
>>>secret handshake.
>>
>>Then you're getting something very strange from what I said.
>
>Perhaps. Why not use this space to elaborate, then?
Well, I do elaborate, but I find that being accused of saying that "there
*is* a secret handshake" tends to rob me of any desire to do so. I mean,
there's only so much time anyone wants to spend protesting that, hey, I am
not beating my wife.
>I understand this entirely. However, your earlier post suggested that a
>number of writers got in through the process of "publishers and editors
>staying alert" to things *other* than the slush pile, like friends of
>other writers, parties, etc. I was trying to get more information about
>this, and hopefully generate some discussion about how this seems to at
>least partially contradict the "work your way up through the slush pile"
>advice.
What kind of "information" can possibly help? Editors and publishers and
writers live in the world. That was and is my only point.
P Nielsen Hayden
>Well, I was hoping for more information. I mean, sure, I could try
>to corner some editor at a convention party and pitch them this
>Really Cool Idea (tm), but my impression was that they would not
>appreciate this too much.
Quite possibly not. My experience, certainly, is that most people who do
this are bores. And then once in a while someone does it and they're
brilliant. The same goes for anything.
You're looking for simple rules and there are no simple rules.
P Nielsen Hayden
>tip...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> For what it's worth, Jay, I know the incident of which you speak. People have
>> said far, far worse to me and were answered with a laugh on my part. Frankly,
>> it seemed like a bit of humor to me.
>
>He himself immediately twigged that he had been offensive. It now appears that
>he was doing so deliberately.
>
>It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if I had said I
>was _not_ `the Jay Random from Buttfuck, Alberta'. Very likely I would have
>been regaled with stories of what a clueless & pugnacious idiot I am -- in the
>third person.
>
>I don't know how things stand in New York, but where I come from, one does
>not open a conversation with a stranger with any sentence containing the
>word `buttfuck'.
Well, of course, in New York we do so all the time. It makes church
especially exciting.
I'm fascinated by the dribs and drabs with which Jay Random is telling the
mighty epic of our meeting at World Fantasy Con, an incident I barely
remember. I seem to recall it was a party, I was talking with friends; it's
entirely possible that alcohol was involved. He introduced himself; I made
a lame witticism, something like which Random are you, the one from
California or the one from Buttfuck, Alberta? He laughed, I laughed,
conversation drifted onto something else. I admit it, sometimes I make
silly and even crude jokes. You have been warned. Very unprofessional.
Those liable to be offended are cautioned to deal instead with one of the
many book editors out there whose manners never depart from the standard set
by Emily Post.
What provokes my sense of wonder, of course, is that he's obviously refined
on this piece of surpassing trivia, and it has now become a deadly offense.
I mean, the whole basis of my silly joke was how much _he_ had complained in
this very newsgroup about being in what he described as a backwater. But
I'm sure Jay Random never in his life made a joke that misfired.
P Nielsen Hayden
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>
>> Just out of curiosity, would that last be Jacqueline Carey?
>
>Yes! And I can't wait to read her books...
Great googly mooglies, can that woman write. Claire Eddy bought the
series; I read a big chunk of the first book at Claire's request. I
jokingly described it as "The Story of O in the world of the Wheel of Time."
Which doesn't completely get it across. This is imaginary-world fantasy
with a _profound_ erotic charge.
Brenda
Bruce Sterling Woodcock wrote:
> Well, I was hoping for more information. I mean, sure, I could try
> to corner some editor at a convention party and pitch them this
> Really Cool Idea (tm), but my impression was that they would not
> appreciate this too much.
>
> Bruce
That's all I did, last time. Although it -is- better to be able to say "I have
already written this Really Cool Book." Many Really Cool Ideas die aborning, in a
pre-publishable state.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD, from Tor Books
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Dorothy J Heydt
>
>
>That's all I did, last time. Although it -is- better to be able to say "I have
>already written this Really Cool Book." Many Really Cool Ideas die aborning,
in a pre-publishable state.
Lordy, yes.
I'm going to quote a parable which, I am glad to have found out
by reading old files, I got originally from our very own Jo
Walton.
>
> The trick I've been taught is to pretend you've caught your target
> person in the lobby of his [or her] office building. He's striding
> purposefully toward the elevator. You catch up with him as he pushes
> the elevator button. You say, "Mr. Frisbie, I've written a novel
> about... " and you have until his elevator arrives at the ground
> floor to describe it in such a way that he'll say, "Really. Why
> don't you come up to my office and we'll talk about it." That's
> how short and how attention-getting your couple-of-sentence
> description has to be.
Now, for "elevator" read "convention {hotel lobby, back of
seminar room, coffee shop cashier's line [*not* while he's
eating!], pool} and, yes, "elevator". Make it short, like a
couple of sentences, and interesting, like, ... interesting.
And if the target person says, "Write me a letter," then you
write him a letter and say, "When we met at Don'tquitthedayjobCon,
you said, ...".
As Miss Manners is wont to remind us, "The roof constitutes an
introduction."
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
_A Point of Honor_ is out....
Steve Patterson
>
>P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
>>
>> One of the things that talented publishers and editors _don't_ do,
I've
>> observed, is allow belligerent pipsqueaks to bait them into endless
games of
>> Prove You're Not A Bad Guy, along with the accompanying game of
Explain The
>> Adult Universe To Me, While I Complain About Every Detail.
>
>Thanks very much. I am now a `belligerent pipsqueak' from `Buttfuck,
Alberta'.
Now (dare I ask) where did that last bit come from? No, I've changed
my mind, don't answer. Just thaw out and enjoy that warm weather while
you've got it... take a walk, or go jogging, or ride a bike and revel
in being able to do so in January (while I wonder if my balcony is
going to collapse and try to figure out how to get groceries when local
transit is snowed in) while burning off all this vitriol you seem to
have built up. Or use it and write a nasty scene in whatever Work in
Progress you have. Don't waste it here, alienating one of your markets
and a lot of bystanders who would otherwise be rather supporting of a
fellow-writer.
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Note: My "from:" address has been altered to foil mailbots.
Remove the "no_spam_" to get in touch with me by email.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Steven J. Patterson no_spam_s...@wwdc.com
"Men may move mountains, but ideas move men."
-- M.N. Vorkosigan, per L.M. Bujold
See my refurbished webpage! http://www.wwdc.com/~spatterson
Steve Patterson
>
>Have you no common sense? There is no secret and no system to game
>just publishers and editors staying alert in the real world. Why is
this so
>hard to understand?
For the same reason, I think, that certain islands in the South Pacific
danced and chanted for Cargo.
From the outside, the publishing world seems magical and mysterious.
There's a strong impulse for us would-(or wanna-)bes to try to figure
out The Rules for Getting Published. The "which font is *the* font for
submissions" and "how big should my margins be" type of questions crop
up from this impulse to ritualise the process to guarantee success.
From out here in the cold publishing seems to be every bit an
enchantment as the great Silver Birds bringing [obSF] oomphel from the
Heavens. To you, Patrick, it's just a DC-3, because you fly one and
know most of the parts it's made from.
We're *supposed* to be imaginative and have leanings towards the
mysterious. We're writing SF and Fantasy, which are only strengthened
by looking at the world this way. Is it at all surprising that this
outlook can be used on the very process of writing itself? (I'm not
immune to this myself, despite being innoculated by writing for game
companies, though perhaps I can take it into account and correct my
world-view. Or perhaps not.)
Many of us greatly appreciate whatever views we can get of the cockpit,
even if from the outside and distorted a bit by windshield glint. Some
of us, however, will still insist that dried chicken bones are
essential to the flight of the Silver Birds no matter what we see.
I just hope that I'm in the right sect and get to fly someday. After
some more practice. (And the right set of juju sticks.)
Graydon
>No. If you will recall, I was merely pointing out that `Surprise us!' is not
>chose to ignore my follow-up question & call me an idiot, & the rest of you
>signed up for the goon squad.
Becuase insisting that the advice can't be followed _is_ an idiotic
assertion.
If an editor tells you what has surprised them in the past, they are
listing what cannot surprise them again; they've seen it.
If you are moderately well read, and you write the book you want to
read, the one that's not like all that other stuff, and you write it
with its own clear voice, it is at least capable of surprising an
editor.
But it's got to be the best book that is in you to write, and it's got
to be its own self in the world.
Graydon
>staying alert" to things *other* than the slush pile, like friends of
>other writers, parties, etc. I was trying to get more information about
>this, and hopefully generate some discussion about how this seems to at
>least partially contradict the "work your way up through the slush pile"
>advice.
Uh, Bruce -- if you write really, really well on newsgroups -- even
this newsgroup -- it's not unheard of that an editor will notice, and
be particularly interested in your submission as a result.
This is a social setting.
Honest.
Graydon
>No, that was done a long time ago. He has long since lost the ability to read
>anything except `belligerent pipsqueak' in anything I say, or to respond civilly.
Free clue, here, Jay.
This is because you act like a belligerent pipsqueak when you attempt
to communicate with him.
You don't deserve a civil response from Patrick; you have been
publicly attacking him on a regular basis for some time, because you
can't make him tell you that your imagination of how publishing works
is true.
Eventually, it ought to cross your mind that maybe your imagination of
how publishing works _isn't_ true.
It might even cross your mind that attempting to compell someone who
reads conciously through the medium of usenet news isn't the most
practical endevour going.
Graydon
> gra...@lara.on.ca (Graydon) wrote:
>>I think he's talking about just that, social connections that can
>>identify who is writing stuff that a bunch of people have read and
>>liked. Editors need all the variety amplifier they can get when it
>>comes to cutting down their rejection rate, after all.
>
>to corner some editor at a convention party and pitch them this
>Really Cool Idea (tm), but my impression was that they would not
>appreciate this too much.
That is my understanding also.
I think you're misunderstanding it as something you do deliberately;
if you're an effective, active, conscientious sort of writer, actively
writing, actively seeking skilled criticism, and known to your circle
of acquaintance as someone doing this stuff, the odds of the
connections to someone who wants to see your writing in a professional
capacity happening aren't zero.
This is a zen thing; it happens because you are known to be a writer
in a way that has basis, not because you've performed the correct
incantations at auspicious times.
Morgan E. Smith
On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Jay Random wrote:
> I don't know how things stand in New York, but where I come from, one does not
> open a conversation with a stranger with any sentence containing the word `buttfuck'.
You obviously aren't from _my_ part of "Buttfuck". People in Calgary are
among the most casually rude and foul-mouthed of any city I've ever lived
in. Last week, I heard a total stranger, who was in a hurry to board a
bus downtown, call the poor little old lady ahead of him a "stinking
cunt". Or is that, somehow, more acceptable, because he wasn't talking to
you?
Morgan Smith
Jo Walton
> I'm going to quote a parable which, I am glad to have found out
> by reading old files, I got originally from our very own Jo
> Walton.
You have the files, but I don't _remember_ saying this and I always
attribute it to you when I quote it. How interestingly circular.
On this general subject - my novel got attention in ths slush because
Patrick knew me from usenet. Everyone posting has this "secret advantage".
(I suppose there are people who write memorable fiction who don't
write memorable usenet posts, but if you include thoroughly
irritating under "memorable" I can't think of any.)
I got an agent - having sold the novel - by asking a published writer
(name withheld to avoid pestiferous requests) who I know from usenet
if she could recommend any agents who could cope with doing business
through email. I got three recommendations with email addresses and
have an agent.
I found two of my three first readers on rec.arts.sf.written - not
by setting out to do so, just by making friends with people who like
reading what I like reading. My other first reader, my military
advisor, I encountered because he's a friend of one of the other two.
I think if you just muddle along writing as best you can and getting
down and _doing_ it and using what contacts you happen to make along
the way when it comes to selling it, it can work. I'm not entirely
convinced that every deserving manuscript gets picked out of the slush,
but I don't think there are any secret handshakes either. This whole
discussion makes me shudder.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
First NorAm Public Appearance: Imperiums to Order, Kitchener, March 20th
Freshly UPDATED web-page http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Interstichia;
RASFW FAQ, Reviews, Fanzine, Momentum Guidelines, Blood of Kings Poetry
pa...@webnexus.com
wrote:
[list of ways to have gotten attention that appear to have actually
happened, or at least, I could put probably names to many of them...]
> Or you could become an astronaut who writes vividly
> about his experience.
Or paints.
Sam
--
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous
to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, then to take the
lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Machiavelli.
PWrede6492
In article <77q8i1$2...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, Bruce Sterling Woodcock
<sirb...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>I understand this entirely. However, your earlier post suggested that a
>number of writers got in through the process of "publishers and editors
>staying alert" to things *other* than the slush pile, like friends of
>other writers, parties, etc. I was trying to get more information about
>this, and hopefully generate some discussion about how this seems to at
>least partially contradict the "work your way up through the slush pile"
>advice.
Contradict how? Is it a contradiction to say that you can cook soup on an
electric stove or you can cook it on a gas stove or you can cook it on a
campfire? Just because one thing works, doesn't mean something else doesn't
also work.
And the reasons that most new writers are advised to go through the slush pile,
rather than the cocktail party circuit, are that 1) the slush pile is available
to everybody, regardless of location or cash flow, 2) the slush pile *does* get
looked at and new authors *do* get found in it (in other words, it works), and
especially 3) so far as I (and many other authors) am concerned, it is highly
unlikely bordering on impossible for one person to become an actual, honest
friend to another when the whole point of the "friendship" (from person A's
viewpoint) is to eventually persuade person B to perform a service of some sort
for them. Authors and editors get amazingly sensitive and allergic to such
users very early on. There is thus no point in recommending to anyone that they
make "friends" with writers and cozy up to editors in order to sell, because
anyone doing it *in order to sell* is almost certainly not going to be
successful. (In other words, it doesn't work.)
As for it being some sort of secret society that you need the password to
join...what on earth do you think is going on here on this newsgroup? Patrick
is an editor. So is Ellen. George is an agent. I and Pamela and Dorothy and
Jacey and Julian and Bud and a bunch of other people are published authors,
some of novels and some of short fiction and some of both. You are talking to
all of us. That's networking, which is just the sort of thing Patrick was
talking about.
I met Raphael Carter in a similar newsgroup on FIDO a number of years back, was
intrigued enough by zie's posts to offer a critique, and was impressed enough
by the manuscript zie sent for critique to recommend zie to my agent. But I've
also turned down a number of requests from folks who wanted me to critique
their stuff; some, because I didn't have time, others because the ms. in
question wasn't my sort of thing, and a few because the requestor was clearly
hoping/expecting me to be so blown away by their fabulous manuscript that I
would recommend them to all and sundry...and those are *invariably* the most
awful writing I've seen (sometimes even in the e-mail requesting that I "coment
on my writting by next wensday.")
And ultimately, all that networking will get you is that your ms. will get
*looked at* a little sooner. Maybe. It won't get that manuscript *sold*. If
you want to *sell* a manuscript, you have to write a story that's good enough
to impress the editor who looks at it, when he looks at it, enough for him to
buy the ms. It doesn't *matter* whether he got the manuscript from the slush
pile, or whether you handed it to him personally over a cappuchino at a cozy
little club you both adore. I've been turned down repeatedly by close personal
friends, some of whom had not only specifically requested that I submit a story
to them, but also pestered me mercilessly for months to make sure I got the
story done and sent in to them. Knowing editors does not ensure a sale. Only
writing a good enough story will do that.
Patricia C. Wrede
PWrede6492
Somebody said:
> So what's the secret? Where do I go and what do I do,
>: outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
>: have an interesting book in me?
Write it down and show it to them.
Publishers and editors don't care if you have an interesting book in you. It
doesn't do them any good until it's down on paper where they can look at it and
put little red copy-edit marks all over it and send it down to Production to be
laid out and typeset.
Patricia C. Wrede
James Nicoll
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <77q8ll$6...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirb...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>>Well, I was hoping for more information. I mean, sure, I could try
>>to corner some editor at a convention party and pitch them this
>>Really Cool Idea (tm), but my impression was that they would not
>>appreciate this too much.
>
>this are bores.
How about I corner you, tell you three of my dullest anecdotes[1]
and promise to stop if you buy my manuscript?
James Nicoll
1: Starting with 'James collects elastic bands' which isn't mine but
an apparently hilarious parody of how I tell stories.
"I remember the first elastic band I ever bought. It was the
summer of '68 [...]"
--
March 20, 1999: Imperiums To Order's 15th Anniversary Party. Guests include
Rob Sawyer [SF author], Jo Walton [game designer and soon to be published
fantasy author] and James Gardner [SF author]. DP9 is a definite maybe.
Imperiums is at 12 Church Street, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada.
Mitch Wagner
sirb...@ix.netcom.com says...
> In article <77o22d$jgj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
> >Hint: Sometimes publishers and editors learn about people with interesting
> >books (written or potential) in them through other connections. Cultivating
> >the kinds of connections that yield this sort of thing is one of the many
> >things talented publishers and editors do.
>
> sounds to me like, despite what is often reported elsewhere, there *is* a
> outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
> have an interesting book in me?
I usually don't comment on these threads because I am the kind of person
whose posts I would ignore if they were coming from someone else. But
this time, what the hell.
I am one of those people who has the magic powers to sidestep the
slushpile. I have been explicitly told by two editors that when I finish
my novel manuscript, they will be happy to read it. There are two or
three more editors who I think would be receptive if I fired off a query.
This is based on nine years of activity in online fandom, and meeting a
few people at the few conventions I've been to.
So I get to sidestep the slushpile--but that doesn't get me published,
and it doesn't get me on the bestseller list. The same editors who will
be happy to read my ms, based on personal acquaintance, will be happy to
reject it if they don't like it.
I base the previous sentence on experience.
By the way, when I say that "I am the kind of person whose posts I would
ignore," what I mean is that when I read these kinds of forums, I skim
for posts by working editors and established pros. In this newsgroup,
that means Patrick and Gary and George Scithers and Lawrence Watt-Evans
and maybe a couple of others whose names aren't occuring to me, perhaps
because I am not sufficiently familiar with the genre to recognize the
names. If I don't recognize the name at the top, I very often skip the
post entirely. This is because there's an incredible amount of
wrongheaded information that gets posted by wannabes and neopros in these
how-to-get-started-writing forums, so much so that I wonder if they do
more harm than good.
--
mitch w. thri...@sff.net
http://www.sff.net/people/mitchw
"Top Ten Signs You Work in a Bad Office: 2. Cafeteria lunch special is whatever
got caught in the glue trap." -- David Letterman
Julian Flood
> Or you could become well-known for your talent as a folk-singer.
Hey, I'm in with a chance! You are talking to the man who produced total
silence at the Frinsham Swan with his version of 'How Will I Ever Be Simple
Again'(*).
Seriously, chaps, I had an agent write to me after readng a short. The fact
that he hasn't sold any of the five - that's five <grit, grit> - novels may
be because I'm a talentless dork or because the story he liked was slightly
tongue-in-cheek chop-em-up and I don't write novels like that.
Sell shorts. Find agent. Sell novel. Two out of three's not bad.
Jay, I know it's frustrating, I know we all get wound up by the
impossibility of getting noticed by purblind and just-plain-wrong assessors
of our brilliant work, I know that Patrick's no-doubt generous and open
heart can sometimes be hidden by his caustic pen, but please, be the
sensible and witty person we knew before. Shrug, laugh, and get on with
writing - life's too short to spend it insulting each other on newsgroups.
Now, if you'd be kind enough to excuse me, I'm having an argument on zfc
about how the celts didn't have shamans and the opposition is being really
stupid. I'll just write fifteen refutations and send them all at once...
(*)Don't ask why, OK?
--
Julian Flood
jul...@argonet.co.uk
Life, the Universe and Climbing Plants can be found at www.argonet.co.uk/users/julesf. Don't ask about the Diddley Skiffle-folk.
Mitch Wagner
kind of story we publish, but I liked this one so much I just couldn't
resist." I figure the secret message the editor is trying to convey by
that blurb is: this is generally not the kind of story they publish, but
the editor liked this one so much he couldn't resist. Sometimes reading
for subtext is a bum's game.
Mike Totty
>
> >>
> >>So why not let (potentially talneted) writers in on the same game?
> >
> >You _are_ in. What on earth do you think I'm saying?
>
> Umm, I *think* you said above that a good number of writers get in through
> other than the slush pile, which is what new writers are commonly told they
> have to trudge through. So, I was looking for examples of that (someone
> else pointed out a few).
You're trying to make it seem like some secret network of insiders
or something. I'm a newbie, an outsider. Here's what I think he
means.
1. You meet at a convention. You have friendly amiable discussions
about science fiction with pnh. On the way out, you mention you
have a book and would he be interested. He says sure. A week later,
he gets a package addressed directly to him from Bruce Sterling
Woodcock. Since, it was only a week ago, he remembers from your
friendly, amiable discussion that you are a reasonably intelligent
chap.
At this point, your work will stand on its own.
2. At a workshop, a pro writer sees something in your work. He
agrees to send it to pnh with a cover rec. letter saying that you
are a reasonably intelligent chap.
At this point, your work will stand on its own.
3. You discuss writing, science fiction and publishing with pnh on
a Usenet group. You send a mss addressed to him specifically.
Perhaps, you drop an email and tell him it is on its way (although
this might be a bit presumptive). The mss shows up and pnh says
"Bruce Sterling Woodcock, I recognize that name from rasfc. He's a
reasonably intelligent chap. I'll take a look."
At this point, your work will stand on its own.
I distinctly remember an exchange between the combative Jay Random
and PNH some months ago. Jay, in his typical poor-mouth way, tried
to assert that the argumentative posts of the previous few days had
killed any chance he had.
PNH said, very clearly, that nothing could be further from the
truth. He said, in fact, that he was more likely you take a look
since he'd recognize Jay Random. I may be wrong, but IMHO, PNH was
clearly _inviting_ Jay Random to send him something.
A personal invitation from an editor (again, my inference of the
exchange may be wrong) circumvents the slushpile.
No matter what, your work will still have to stand on its own.
mike
Mike Totty
>
>
> No. If you will recall, I was merely pointing out that `Surprise us!' is not
> advice with any content that can actually be followed. Mr. Nielsen Hayden
> chose to ignore my follow-up question & call me an idiot, & the rest of you
> signed up for the goon squad.
Another goon chiming in.
Jay, you very _obnoxiously_ told PNH that his advice was useless.
At every juncture, you seem to go out of your way to sabotage your
own "career". The difference between sycophant and a "your own
man" is not black and white it is a gradient. Somewhere in there is
a little thing called mutual respect.
PNH offered some advice -- "surprise us" -- which, IMHO, is
certainly more creative than the standard "write good stories". I
may be wrong, but PNH probably wouldn't have had a problem with a
request for elucidation. But why would he want to try an help
someone who is openly insulting and belligerent?
Let's face it Jay, you enjoy being belligerent, you work very hard
at it.
mike
Jay Random
>
> Sell shorts. Find agent. Sell novel. Two out of three's not bad.
Hmm. Perhaps we're looking at a difference here between U.S. & U.K. practice?
Common advice over here is to sell novel, _then_ find agent.
> Jay, I know it's frustrating, I know we all get wound up by the
> impossibility of getting noticed by purblind and just-plain-wrong assessors
> of our brilliant work, I know that Patrick's no-doubt generous and open
> heart can sometimes be hidden by his caustic pen, but please, be the
> sensible and witty person we knew before. Shrug, laugh, and get on with
> writing - life's too short to spend it insulting each other on newsgroups.
I get wound up chiefly by people who tell me I can't write fiction without
ever having read any of my fiction. And by people who tell me that I _don't_
write fiction, or that I don't submit it to publishers, without bothering to
find out whether I do or not. And by people who, having accused me of such
things without a shred of evidence, then call _me_ lamebrained for having the
temerity to disagree.
Moving along....
`Sensible & witty'? Moi? You keep saying things like that, old son, & they'll
put you away. But I would indeed get on with writing -- except that in the
various battles I've been fighting (offline, mostly), all my motives have been
shot out from under me, until the only _reason_ I have left to write is to
piss off all the people who said I couldn't. Which is a very thin reason for
doing anything. Especially since I shall have to produce some kind of monster
smash bestseller to cause some of the thicker persons among them to get the
point -- & the chances of my doing that, as you need not remind me, are
vanishingly small.
Makes it hard to get up in the morning & face the two thousand sheets of blank
paper that I have got to fill with Brilliant & Immortal Blah Blah Blah before
I can even consider the job started.
> Now, if you'd be kind enough to excuse me, I'm having an argument on zfc
> about how the celts didn't have shamans and the opposition is being really
> stupid. I'll just write fifteen refutations and send them all at once...
Oh, just tell them I said Celts _did_ have shamans. That'll send them running
for cover. You'll never hear the words `Celt' & `shaman' together in a
sentence again. <sigh>
Mike Totty
>
>
> I'm not being ingenuous. Going through _someone's_ slushpile, whether a book
> editor's, a magazine editor's, or an agent's, is still by far the most common
> way for a new author to break into print -- & it is the _only_ method
> available to most people. I was taking issue with the idea that this is `very
> minor', given that most of the writers in the field went through this process themselves.
Do you have a source for this rather remarkable claim?
mike
Mike Totty
>
>
> Far from it. The very people who are claiming that there are all these ways to
> get published _without_ submitting material to an agent or editor are signally
> failing to report any instances of its having been done.
No Jay, nobody ever said that. What they said was that there are
plenty of routes to getting published that don't involve sitting in
a slush pile until the first reader has time to process your mss.
These other routes mean that the author's mss skips the slush queue
and gets pushed to a senior editor. Non-agented submissions from
pros, recommendations from pros/friends, names the editor remembers
from cons _OR NEWSGROUPS_ are some examples of mss that _might_
bypass the slushpile.
The mechanics of this process are irrelevant. Just as you did a few
days ago with the Tor policy against resubmissions, you seem to
view everything as rigid or black and white. Tor has a policy so
that means that there can never be an exception. Every submission
is either slush or is an agented/personal invitation.
In the real world, most things are a gradient. Certainly, Tor
editors are free to make exceptions to the resubmission policy. And
there are ways of submitting mss. that are available to a newbie
that are different than the standard slushpile.
And you know what, if Holy Lisle read a mss. from a new writer that
she recognized as being a can't-miss superstar, he'd probably be
very interested in seeing that work despite his prohibitions.
Shades of gray.
mike
Mike Totty
>
>
> But you did submit to the anthologies. Were you invited to do that? If not,
> that's another slushpile -- further back in the process.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that PNH meant most writers
never submit to slush piles?
PNH is talking about where he _buys_ books from. That's what's
really important. Not whether or not someone has _ever_ submitted
to a slushpile.
PNH (like most other book editors, I've heard) buys very few mss
out of the slushpile. He buys almost all of his books from agented
submissions or from the "secret handshake" sources.
mike
Jay Random
>
> Do you have a source for this rather remarkable claim?
Among others:
_How To Write Tales Of Horror, Fantasy, And Science Fiction_, J.N. Williamson, ed.
_In Memory Yet Green_, Isaac Asimov.
_The Way The Future Was_, Frederik Pohl.
_Expanded Universe_ & _Grumbles From The Grave_, Robert A. Heinlein.
_Fantasists On Fantasy_, Boyer & Zahorski, eds.
Panels at conventions: Frederik Pohl, Jack Chalker, Mike Resnick, Catherine
Crook DeCamp, Jim Frenkel, etc.
Specific information on authors' first sales from _The SF Book Of Lists_,
Edwards & Jakubowski.
Morgan E. Smith
On 16 Jan 1999, Graydon wrote:
> If you are moderately well read, and you write the book you want to
> read, the one that's not like all that other stuff, and you write it
> with its own clear voice, it is at least capable of surprising an
> editor.
But sometimes I want to read a book that's exactly like the ones I've
read before and liked, except, well - different!
That's the book I went out and wrote, too.
Morgan (counting on that proverbial snowball's chance) Smith
Morgan E. Smith
And Jay, especially, is not without resources: despite earlier comments
I made, Calgary has an sf/f convention every year, and I know of three
(3!) published sf/f writers living here: Dave Duncan, Alison Sinclair and
Rebecca Bradley. There is an ongoing critiquing group (Imaginative Fiction
Writers Association) and probably room for another one. Wait, I'm wrong.
There are four sf/f authors in town. Marie Jakober, author of "High
Kamilan" lives here too. Guy Gavriel Kay comes through town fairly
frequently (he did a signing at Blue Castle Books a couple of years back),
because he has friends here.
And this works for me, up to a point: Alison and Rebecca were both very
supportive during the writing process, and gave me some valuable
critiquing when it was done: they talked it up to Dave, so that he came
into the store and asked if he could read it, too.
No one can get this thing published but me, though. I'm the one who has
to gather up my courage and send it off somewhere. Relying on my friends
to tell their editor to look at it would be nice, but I quite see why the
editor might not necessarily take that advice.
Rob Sawyer gave me the compliment, last summer, of saying that if I
wrote as well as I talked, I probably was a "decent enough writer" - if
that ain't networking to no purpose whatsoever, I don't know what is! (But
a nice thing to say, nonetheless. At least I _think_ he meant it nicely.)
Morgan Smith
Lisa Leutheuser
PWrede6492 <pwred...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>hoping/expecting me to be so blown away by their fabulous manuscript that I
>would recommend them to all and sundry...and those are *invariably* the most
>awful writing I've seen (sometimes even in the e-mail requesting that I "coment
>on my writting by next wensday.")
Hmmm.. wen is a variant of wynn, and a wynn is an Old English rune.
That makes it next Old-English-Rune-Day, which gives you plenty of
time to do the critique seeing how as there won't be a next
Old-English-Rune-Day. :-)
Lisa Leutheuser
eal (at) umich.edu
http://www.umich.edu/~eal
George D. Phillies
> Somebody said:
> > So what's the secret? Where do I go and what do I do,
> >: outside the slush pile, to demonstrate to publishers and editors that I
> >: have an interesting book in me?
I believe the question is what you did, after placing the document in the
mail, to increase up to "buy a winning lottery ticket" statistics the
likelihood that your novel will be read by those editors, and bought.
By and by, the Chapter Display scheme at www.baen.com, for early chapters,
plus print on demand at some cost, is going to meant that for something
like the cost of a hardback an arbitrary author is going to be able to
sell you an arbitrary book.
In fact, that sounds like an interesting internet startup.
The value of the editor and publisher had better become "we made
sufficiently good choices and did enough *real* editing that you will like
our books for sure, no money risked", "our prices are lower", and "we
sufficiently scrounged the slushpile that there is nothing worth reading
in it". If it isn't, sl...@pile.com is going to start taking market
share. Based on having edited a fiction zine (not *fan* in the sense
that the word is used here) I'd say that delivering on 1 and 3
is going to take some work.
Otherwise, sl...@pile.com is going to be knocking at the door.
To replace a few regular publishers, just as amazon.com is going to
replace second-rate bookstores, bank.of.aol (or whatever) is going to
knock off a certain number of poor local banks, etc.
(For those who doubt my taste, I have available for snail distribution old
copies of the fiction magazine (Eldritch Science) in question.)
Send snail address with request.
George
Jay Random
>
> P. Wrede's point about networking is well taken (by me at least).
> And Jay, especially, is not without resources: despite earlier comments
> I made, Calgary has an sf/f convention every year, and I know of three
> (3!) published sf/f writers living here: Dave Duncan, Alison Sinclair and
> Rebecca Bradley. There is an ongoing critiquing group (Imaginative Fiction
> Writers Association) and probably room for another one. Wait, I'm wrong.
> There are four sf/f authors in town. Marie Jakober, author of "High
> Kamilan" lives here too. Guy Gavriel Kay comes through town fairly
> frequently (he did a signing at Blue Castle Books a couple of years back),
> because he has friends here.
Point taken. I would note, however, that I have not seen either a pro editor
or an agent at that con since Veronica Chapman showed up at Con-Version
VII/Canvention 10, at which Dave Duncan won the Aurora Award. This makes it,
shall we say, less than useful for certain kinds of networking.
(I specifically exclude the editorial staff of Edge from consideration, since
Edge is not yet a professional market by SFWA standards. I hope they make it;
I have a ms. with them at the moment; but they're not there yet.)
> And this works for me, up to a point: Alison and Rebecca were both very
> supportive during the writing process, and gave me some valuable
> critiquing when it was done: they talked it up to Dave, so that he came
> into the store and asked if he could read it, too.
Very interesting. Mr. Duncan has told me that he doesn't do that kind of thing
any more. (Not that I was asking him to, but I think he was rather afraid that
I _might_ ask.)
> No one can get this thing published but me, though. I'm the one who has
> to gather up my courage and send it off somewhere. Relying on my friends
> to tell their editor to look at it would be nice, but I quite see why the
> editor might not necessarily take that advice.
...So I send things off, & then hear a lot of bafflegab about how Slush
Doesn't Pay, & editors only look at unpublished writers because they're such
wonderful altruistic people, & could quite happily do without ever publishing
a new writer again -- except those that schmooze with them at New York
cocktail parties. And meanwhile, I don't hear back. And don't hear back. And
don't hear back. And have to put up with people who have no idea what I'm
doing telling me that I'm Doing Everything Wrong.
> Rob Sawyer gave me the compliment, last summer, of saying that if I
> wrote as well as I talked, I probably was a "decent enough writer" - if
> that ain't networking to no purpose whatsoever, I don't know what is! (But
> a nice thing to say, nonetheless. At least I _think_ he meant it nicely.)
I certainly hope so, & I'm glad to hear he said it.
Lois McMaster Bujold
>
> In article <77q2o1$3jh$1...@panix2.panix.com>, p...@panix.com says...
> >
> >Have you no common sense? There is no secret and no system to game
> here,
> >just publishers and editors staying alert in the real world. Why is
> this so
> >hard to understand?
>
> For the same reason, I think, that certain islands in the South Pacific
> danced and chanted for Cargo.
>
> From the outside, the publishing world seems magical and mysterious.
> There's a strong impulse for us would-(or wanna-)bes to try to figure
> out The Rules for Getting Published. The "which font is *the* font for
> submissions" and "how big should my margins be" type of questions crop
> up from this impulse to ritualise the process to guarantee success.
> From out here in the cold publishing seems to be every bit an
> enchantment as the great Silver Birds bringing [obSF] oomphel from the
> Heavens. To you, Patrick, it's just a DC-3, because you fly one and
> know most of the parts it's made from.
"Cargo Cult..." Yes! That's just *exactly* what I felt like
stuck in Marion, Ohio in 1984, scribbling all this stuff and sending it
off into the Great Unknown of Sinister New York City where
who-knows-what happened to it, and having it return as mysteriously...
much later, of course.... Excellent metaphor, Steven. Cargo cult, heh.
Ta, Lois.
P Nielsen Hayden
>Well, aside from treating people as people, Mr. Hayden seemed to
>suggest there was a secret to getting, if not published, at least
>*considered*, that was outside the slush pile. This may not be
>the same thing as the secret handshake but it's along the same lines.
>So I was looking for more elaboration on that.
I. Did. Not. Suggest. There. Was. Any. "Secret."
ObSheesh: Sheesh.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <77qe8o$90e$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote:
>
>>In <77q8ll$6...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirb...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>>>Well, I was hoping for more information. I mean, sure, I could try
>>>to corner some editor at a convention party and pitch them this
>>>Really Cool Idea (tm), but my impression was that they would not
>>>appreciate this too much.
>>
>>Quite possibly not. My experience, certainly, is that most people who do
>>this are bores. And then once in a while someone does it and they're
>>brilliant. The same goes for anything.
>>
>>You're looking for simple rules and there are no simple rules.
>
>I'm not looking for simple rules, but an understanding of a fair process.
There is no "fair process." There are human beings. We acquire, edit, and
publish books. We're very interested in finding good ones. We have _not_
undertaken to administer an International Unpublished Author Olympics,
guaranteeing fairness and a level playing field to all.
>Presumably, *knowing* that sometimes you get a genuine writer with a good
>pitch, if you got one that you didn't like, you wouldn't just write the
>person off as a "bore" but simply nod your head and say you're not really
>interested or whatever. Perhaps that's not the way you see it, but that's
>the way I would *hope* to be treated... the same as any other writer, were
>their idea good or bad.
Actually, I try to treat _people_, not just writers, the way I would hope to
be treated; it was my understanding others have also suggested this at
various points in history.
But, you know, I am also fallible, and so is every other editor. Moreover,
I am not On and at Peak Performance twenty-four hours a day. Sometimes,
goodness, I might be tired and punchy and knocking back a drink with a
couple of old friends. The same goes for everyone else in any branch of the
entertainment industry.
Stop looking for "a fair process" and start reviewing what you know about
human beings and how they work.
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <77q8ll$6...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <77q25n$36m$1...@lara.on.ca>,
>> gra...@lara.on.ca (Graydon) wrote:
>>>I think he's talking about just that, social connections that can
>>>identify who is writing stuff that a bunch of people have read and
>>>liked. Editors need all the variety amplifier they can get when it
>>>comes to cutting down their rejection rate, after all.
>>
>>Well, I was hoping for more information. I mean, sure, I could try
>>to corner some editor at a convention party and pitch them this
>>Really Cool Idea (tm), but my impression was that they would not
>>appreciate this too much.
>
>That is my understanding also.
>
>I think you're misunderstanding it as something you do deliberately;
>if you're an effective, active, conscientious sort of writer, actively
>writing, actively seeking skilled criticism, and known to your circle
>of acquaintance as someone doing this stuff, the odds of the
>connections to someone who wants to see your writing in a professional
>capacity happening aren't zero.
Yes, exactly right. Good grief. Jo Walton never "cornered me at a party."
She never sent anything to my "slush pile," either. How did I wind up
buying her novel? Easy: I read rec.arts.sf.* for several years, and I kept
noticing that Jo Walton made insightful, interesting, and graceful posts.
Everything that happened subsequently was instigated by me.
Brenda
Bruce Sterling Woodcock wrote:
> I think many beginning writers assume they have a modicum of talent,
> even before they are published. So, assuming that, the question
> then becomes what *else* can they do attract proper attention beyond
> the slush pile. Your examples were good, although a tad large in scope.
>
> Bruce
Oh! This is simple to answer, if not necessarily to do. You want to stand
out in the slush pile? Be sure that your work is really the best it can be.
Polish it like a racehorse, groom it and prink it and buff its hooves. Slice
it into its component parts and shuffle them and reassemble, to see if any
extraneous bits are left over. Spend days mulling over why your characters do
what they do. Think about theme; think about plot; think about whether the
science and religion and culture and economic systems make sense and are
consistent, both within the world of the book and to the outsider. Read it for
grammar; read it again for punctuation; put it away and read it again in two
months; read it aloud to an audience. Look up all the neologisms in the Oxford
Unabridged Dictionary to be sure they don't have another, possibly obscene,
meaning. Tuck in all the loose ends and pull them tight, until the entire
thing looks like a finished jig-saw puzzle, everything in place and connected
up and coherent and inter-related. Put it away again for a month so all the
loose ends you missed will become visible.
In other words, evolve the book until it's no longer smells of First Effort.
Then, surrounded by all the weak and lackadaisical first novels in the slush,
it will be noticed. (It may still be rejected, but you will get past the first
rejection cycle.)
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD, from Tor Books
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Brenda
Jay Random wrote:
> I get wound up chiefly by people who tell me I can't write fiction without
> ever having read any of my fiction. And by people who tell me that I _don't_
> write fiction, or that I don't submit it to publishers, without bothering to
> find out whether I do or not.
If they haven't read it, what do they know? I say that with your complexion and
coloring you can't possibly wear green. Having never seen you, my opinion is
worth nothing.
P Nielsen Hayden
[quoting Jo Walton]
>>This is a social setting.
>>
>>Honest.
>
>Eeek! Well, I hope none of the editors judge my postings too harshly,
>then. I certainly don't spend the time on postings and emails making
>sure I always have proper spelling, punctuation, grammar, and word choice
>that I do when working on a True Work Of Art (tm).
Jo said it was a social setting, not an audition.
That said, it's always seemed to me odd that people who identify as aspiring
writers should post in fora read by hundreds if not thousands of people, and
_not_ put in a little extra effort to make their writing stand out.
I'm not talking about spelling and punctuation -- many excellent writers
can't spell; in many cases that's simply neurological. I'm not even talking
about grammar. I am talking about what you call "word choice". If you
can't be bothered to choose good words and make good sentences when you're
doing this, why should anyone think you can do a good job at a novel?
Making good language is a lifelong commitment.
Yes, this is an informal setting. And some people here write very well, in
an appropriately informal style. That takes art, just like any other kind
of good writing. You'll get your True Works of Art (tm) when you make it
your business to make good language at every opportunity.
Marc Brutschy
>(Believe it or not, I've had the same dental experience as Gary, though in my
>case the book was non-fiction. What is it with dentists?
If I were a dentist, I'd offer the editor free nitrous oxide, then
pitch my latest comedy...
Marc Brutschy
Zeborah
> P Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> >
> > One of the things that talented publishers and editors _don't_ do, I've
> > observed, is allow belligerent pipsqueaks to bait them into endless
> > games of Prove You're Not A Bad Guy, along with the accompanying game of
> > Explain The Adult Universe To Me, While I Complain About Every Detail.
>
> Thanks very much. I am now a `belligerent pipsqueak' from `Buttfuck,
> Alberta'. I shall remember that. I shall not descend to your level by
> telling you what I think _you_ are.
Jay, if I may make a couple of little comments before backing away
quickly, I *think* (I'm daring to guess at other people's thought
processes here) that PNH's point is more about the "endless games of
Prove You're Not A Bad Guy" than anything else.
If I'm wrong about that, then I'm pretty sure I can at least be right in
saying that we have HAD this conversation BEFORE. I don't even think it
was that many months ago...
Patricia Wrede has mentioned some examples of people who got published
without going through the slush pile. If you don't doubt her veracity
then you don't really need names. If you do need names then that
doesn't say much for your confidence in her veracity.
I'm going to delete the rest of this thread unread unless someone tells
me that the subject matter mutates suddenly into something interesting,
so if you want to reply to this then you'd better Cc it to my e-mail
address.
Zeborah
Bruce Tzu
>On this general subject - my novel got attention in ths slush because
>Patrick knew me from usenet. Everyone posting has this "secret advantage".
..which means that it's worth thinking about the sort of impression one
makes. Being a font of great anecdotes is a good way to get remembered.
Likewise for having rock-solid factual information to present, and also
asking good clear newbie questions, then going on to learn from the
answers. Many sorts of net persona can leave a favorable impression
behind.
--
<*> ICQ 27599289 <*> http://www.sff.net/people/bruce-baugh
"There's something that seems profoundly insane and groteque about
puppets and other representations of human beings, something that says
to me, 'This is how you are and this is how the world is.'"
-- Thomas Ligotti
jhe...@my-dejanews.com
no_spam_s...@wwdc.com (Steve Patterson) wrote:
> From the outside, the publishing world seems magical and mysterious.
> There's a strong impulse for us would-(or wanna-)bes to try to figure
> out The Rules for Getting Published. The "which font is *the* font for
> submissions" and "how big should my margins be" type of questions crop
> up from this impulse to ritualise the process to guarantee success.
> From out here in the cold publishing seems to be every bit an
> enchantment as the great Silver Birds bringing [obSF] oomphel from the
> Heavens. To you, Patrick, it's just a DC-3, because you fly one and
> know most of the parts it's made from.
>
Oh, god, yes. Cargo cult. That precisely nails my sense of the publishing
industry. I get back rejections that offer cryptic utterances like "Your
writing is strong, but it is tough for us to do new fantasy. _Good luck._"
And I wonder just what this divine revelation means. (Yes, Mr. Hayden, this
is from your imprint....)
Oh, well, try another publisher. Sooner or later, I'll hit the right editor
on the right day with the right tale.
Jim
"I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me."
Kipling
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