OT - Raising war pigs (for Mary)
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@spamcop.net - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/annafdd/
Brian M. Scott
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
<news:1gegg9h.17xfc3518ysbt7N%ada...@spamcop.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
> http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
Tiger-striped cappottini?! Somebody at that zoo has *far*
too much time on his hands! They do look comfortable,
though.
Brian
Mary Gentle
> I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
> http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
Oh YES! Now that's _way_ up the cute scale. <g>
(I showed them to Him Indoors, and he just says 'What's the Italian say?'
:)
Mary
Most recently published:
1610: A SUNDIAL IN A GRAVE, novel, Orion UK, hc & tpb
CARTOMANCY, short story collection, Orion UK, pb
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <1gegg9h.17xfc3518ysbt7N%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
> > I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
> > http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
>
> Oh YES! Now that's _way_ up the cute scale. <g>
>
> (I showed them to Him Indoors, and he just says 'What's the Italian say?'
> :)
"The feline maternal instinct is well-known, but Bengali Tiger Saimai,
living in Sriracha Zoo, near Bangkok, is truly exceptional. Saimai has
adopted four piglets, here posing for photos with bows and little
tiger-stripes coats, to blend in a little with their adopted mother.
Sriracha zoo hosts about 400 great cats and has a "happy family" program
whereby pigs, dogs and tigers are brought up, sleep, eat and live
together in the same cages."
Mary K. Kuhner
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>"The feline maternal instinct is well-known, but Bengali Tiger Saimai,
>living in Sriracha Zoo, near Bangkok, is truly exceptional. Saimai has
>adopted four piglets, here posing for photos with bows and little
>tiger-stripes coats, to blend in a little with their adopted mother."
What I want to know is, who said to him/herself "Extra piglets?
I know, I'll let the tiger raise them. *That* should work."
Someone with very good intuition about his tigers? or someone who
was willing to let a few extra piglets get eaten?
Diana Wynne Jones has a novel in which the monster-creating wizard
raises the results right along with his own kids, but I didn't think
she did as much with the idea as she might. (_Dark Lord of
Derkhelm_?)
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Irina Rempt
(mkku...@kingman.gs.washington.edu) wrote:
> Diana Wynne Jones has a novel in which the monster-creating wizard
> raises the results right along with his own kids, but I didn't think
> she did as much with the idea as she might. (_Dark Lord of
> Derkhelm_?)
Derkholm, but yes, that's the one. And the monsters are genetically
partly human (no, I don't know how; it's magic, okay?) with the
wizard's own genes, so part-siblings to the human children.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 23-Mar-2004
Boudewijn Rempt
> On Friday 28 May 2004 00:02 Mary K. Kuhner
> (mkku...@kingman.gs.washington.edu) wrote:
>
>> Diana Wynne Jones has a novel in which the monster-creating wizard
>> raises the results right along with his own kids, but I didn't think
>> she did as much with the idea as she might. (_Dark Lord of
>> Derkhelm_?)
>
> Derkholm, but yes, that's the one. And the monsters are genetically
> partly human (no, I don't know how; it's magic, okay?) with the
> wizard's own genes, so part-siblings to the human children.
I never realized that Kit and his kin were monsters...
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org/fading/index.cgi
Zeborah
> I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
> http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
"mangiano insieme", eh? :-)
Zeborah
Elizabeth Shack
Kuhner) wrote in <news:c95ohl$tho$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>:
> What I want to know is, who said to him/herself "Extra piglets?
> I know, I'll let the tiger raise them. *That* should work."
> Someone with very good intuition about his tigers? or someone who
> was willing to let a few extra piglets get eaten?
Perhaps there had been a previous disaster with letting the seals raise
them.
Marilee J. Layman
And the sequel, Year of the Griffin, at which point there are more
kids of different kinds (in Dark Lord, the griffins had human genes,
too, so they were all his children).
--
Marilee J. Layman
Mary Gentle
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <1gegg9h.17xfc3518ysbt7N%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> > ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
> > > http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
> >
> > Oh YES! Now that's _way_ up the cute scale. <g>
> >
> > (I showed them to Him Indoors, and he just says 'What's the Italian
> > say?'
> > :)
>
> "The feline maternal instinct is well-known, but Bengali Tiger Saimai,
> living in Sriracha Zoo, near Bangkok, is truly exceptional. Saimai has
> adopted four piglets, here posing for photos with bows and little
> tiger-stripes coats, to blend in a little with their adopted mother.
> Sriracha zoo hosts about 400 great cats and has a "happy family" program
> whereby pigs, dogs and tigers are brought up, sleep, eat and live
> together in the same cages."
Thanks; I'll pass it on to him.
I worry about how they managed to get that arrangement -- the pigs and the
dogs ought to be OK with each other, and piglets will look at anything and
go "Mama!" if you catch them early enough... but _tigers?_ I just hope
that's an extremely strong maternal instinct!
Mary Gentle
eashac...@earthlink.ENT (Elizabeth Shack) wrote:
That's a...wonderful mental image. :)
Mary
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I worry about how they managed to get that arrangement -- the pigs and the
> dogs ought to be OK with each other, and piglets will look at anything and
> go "Mama!" if you catch them early enough... but _tigers?_ I just hope
> that's an extremely strong maternal instinct!
There's plenty of stories - and pictures - of mama cats raising mice.
Scaling down, it's probaby easier for a cat to kill a mouse than for a
tiger to kill a piglet.
Mary Gentle
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I worry about how they managed to get that arrangement -- the pigs
> > and the
> > dogs ought to be OK with each other, and piglets will look at
> > anything and
> > go "Mama!" if you catch them early enough... but _tigers?_ I just
> > hope
> > that's an extremely strong maternal instinct!
>
> There's plenty of stories - and pictures - of mama cats raising mice.
> Scaling down, it's probaby easier for a cat to kill a mouse than for a
> tiger to kill a piglet.
I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
OTOH, pigs can run like hell, and piglets are especially nippy, so that's
got to be in their favour...
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
Eh eh eh.
When you see a tiger in the flesh, all sort of, I dunno, ancestral
memories come rushing back to you. You go... "uh, that's _beautiful_...
I wonder how sturdy that plexiglas is?"
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> When the Metro Zoo was new, the tiger got out, because they had slightly
> undersized the moat and a long jump could get his forepaws over the
> wall.
>
> So if you ever wonder why there is a short plexiglass wall sticking up
> from the vantage point by the Siberian Tiger enclosure, that's why.
I know meerkats are natural escape artists, which is a lot less
alarming, I think. ;-)
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 29 May 2004 09:13:58 -0400, o...@uniserve.com wrote:
>In <1gejwrz.13ve9gi7a9zxN%ada...@spamcop.net>, Anna Feruglio Dal
>Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
>> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
>>
>> Eh eh eh.
>>
>> When you see a tiger in the flesh, all sort of, I dunno, ancestral
>> memories come rushing back to you. You go... "uh, that's
>> _beautiful_... I wonder how sturdy that plexiglas is?"
>
>When the Metro Zoo was new, the tiger got out, because they had
>slightly undersized the moat and a long jump could get his forepaws
>over the
>wall.
>
>So if you ever wonder why there is a short plexiglass wall sticking
>up from the vantage point by the Siberian Tiger enclosure, that's
>why.
>
>(Me, if I ever sell insane amounts of books, I am going to try to
>keep or sponsor the keeping of clouded leopards, because I cannot
>see them without going 'aw' and wanting to scritch behind their
>ears.)
Clouded leopards are beautiful. The Nashville, Tennessee zoo has a
pair of them, acquired as babies (cubs? kittens?). They are now
about 1 year old, and still very playful.
If you ever _do_ get a chance to scritch a clouded leopard behind the
ears, just be sure that the leopard is OK with the idea, so you don't
end up like one patron of the Rio Grande Zoo in Albuquerque, New
Mexico. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Southwest/05/18/finger.zoo.ap/ He
climbed over a barrier and through a bed of cactus in order to try to
pet a jaguar, and ended up with a bitten-off finger. He has now been
banned from that zoo for life. I suspect that the jaguar would have
moved out of reach had it seen him coming, so he probably sneaked up
on a sleeping jaguar, reached in through the bars to pet it, and paid
the price for startling it.
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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Mary Gentle
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
>
> Eh eh eh.
>
> When you see a tiger in the flesh, all sort of, I dunno, ancestral
> memories come rushing back to you. You go... "uh, that's _beautiful_...
> I wonder how sturdy that plexiglas is?"
Well, I go "awwww, CUTE" for some considerable time before I go "Hey, that
look in its eye spells 'You are lunch'!", but the principle's the same. :)
Brian M. Scott
(Mary Gentle) wrote in
<news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
Not to mention one big tiger of a mother.
[...]
Brian
Mary Gentle
(Brian M. Scott) wrote:
That's what I'm going to think tomorrow - "You little buggers would be far
better behaved if I was a tiger..." :)
(Not that they were being particularly unmannerly total, but requiring 400
lbs of dozing sow to shift from where you want to wheel a wheelbarrow
requires a great deal of moral authority. Or total immunity to pathos.
Which in my case I have not got.)
Ivana Marinkovic
locus scripsit:
>In article <1gejk3i.6x5wvbux6ldsN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
>ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
>> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > I worry about how they managed to get that arrangement -- the pigs
>> > and the
>> > dogs ought to be OK with each other, and piglets will look at
>> > anything and
>> > go "Mama!" if you catch them early enough... but _tigers?_ I just
>> > hope
>> > that's an extremely strong maternal instinct!
>>
>> There's plenty of stories - and pictures - of mama cats raising mice.
>> Scaling down, it's probaby easier for a cat to kill a mouse than for a
>> tiger to kill a piglet.
>
>I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
>
>OTOH, pigs can run like hell, and piglets are especially nippy, so that's
>got to be in their favour...
A german equivalent of Attenborough filmed a pack of dholes forcing a tiger to leave
the freshly killed deer. A little later, enter pigs... exit dholes. Net result, pigs
eat the tiger's catch.
Also, I recently talked to a man who keeps a local rare breed, a continuing line of
forest-grazing sows (daugters growing up with their mothers etc). He says they switch
into killing frenzy on sight of dogs, foam at the mouth and all, and chase and *eat*
local strays. (I want some, a sow or two that is, but the deal wouldn't have worked
because I have dogs, and he only had male piglets for sale).
In another part of the country, who is afraid of the wolves, the guys that are
killing sheep are wild boars.
--
Ivana Marinkovic +------------------------------------
Zagreb, Croatia |"After the first three years the dirt
http://www.iridis.com/ivanam |does not get any worse." --Quentin Crisp
Mary Gentle
(Ivana Marinkovic) wrote:
If I knew anything about dholes, I'd have some idea what that meant. :)
> Also, I recently talked to a man who keeps a local rare breed, a
> continuing line of
> forest-grazing sows
Well, they're all forest-grazing originally...
>(daugters growing up with their mothers etc). He
> says they switch
> into killing frenzy on sight of dogs, foam at the mouth and all, and
> chase and *eat*
> local strays.
I assume they've been attacked by strays in the past? (But my money would
always be on the pig; they just significantly out-weigh and out-bite most
canines.)
>(I want some, a sow or two that is, but the deal wouldn't
> have worked
> because I have dogs, and he only had male piglets for sale).
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if you could raise a gelded male pig
with dogs -- provided you had the piglet very young, and it was used to
both the dogs, and to being handled by you.
But there's always the problem that a casual nip from a pig is rather
nastier than a casual nip from a dog, so maybe better to play it safe.
Mind you, that would apply to the sows, too. One of our tame pigs is the
sweetest little girl you could imagine -- but every time she brims, she
turns into 'Psycho-Slut the Killer Sow', and tries to shag everything she
can reach, regardless of gender or species. Fortunately, being
hand-raised, she will respond to a tap on the nose, and back off... but
five minutes later she sidles back up and starts nibbling your knees
again. :-)
> In another part of the country, who is afraid of the wolves, the guys
> that are
> killing sheep are wild boars.
Wow. There's a reason the wild boar was known as the most ferocious
medieval hunting quarry... :-( Mind you, I hadn't heard of them killing
sheep before; I thought they tended to scavenge rather than hunt. But
then, they are an archetypal omnivore.
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:56 +0100 (BST), mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary
Gentle) wrote:
>In article <wj1i1wh3woj6$.9awke9h...@40tude.net>,
>b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 29 May 2004 10:41 +0100 (BST) mary_...@cix.co.uk
>> (Mary Gentle) wrote in
>> <news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>
>> in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
>>
>> Not to mention one big tiger of a mother.
>
>That's what I'm going to think tomorrow - "You little buggers would
>be far better behaved if I was a tiger..." :)
>
>(Not that they were being particularly unmannerly total, but
>requiring 400 lbs of dozing sow to shift from where you want to
>wheel a wheelbarrow requires a great deal of moral authority. Or
>total immunity to pathos. Which in my case I have not got.)
Hmmm. I am now visualizing a sow with saucer-sized sad eyes, like
those kitschy paintings of dogs, cats, and children that used to be
so popular. In the new "Shrek 2" movie, by the way, Puss-in-Boots
uses this as a tactic; he uses big-eyed pathos to lure his opponent
in close, saying "Aw, isn't he cute", then suddenly MRAOOW!
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John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:58 +0100 (BST), mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary
Gentle) wrote:
>In article <40b8ea35...@news.hinet.hr>,
>ivanam_a...@iridis.com (Ivana Marinkovic) wrote:
>> A german equivalent of Attenborough filmed a pack of dholes
>> forcing a tiger to leave
>> the freshly killed deer. A little later, enter pigs... exit
>> dholes. Net result, pigs
>> eat the tiger's catch.
>
>If I knew anything about dholes, I'd have some idea what that meant.
>:)
A wild canine species, native to India, that hunts in packs. You may
remember a scene in Kipling's _Jungle Book_ where Mowgli lures a
dhole pack into an area occupied by large numbers of wild bees, where
most of the dholes are stung to death, and escapes from the bees
himself by jumping off a cliff into the river.
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Marilee J. Layman
Dal Dan) wrote:
>Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I worry about how they managed to get that arrangement -- the pigs and the
>> dogs ought to be OK with each other, and piglets will look at anything and
>> go "Mama!" if you catch them early enough... but _tigers?_ I just hope
>> that's an extremely strong maternal instinct!
>
>There's plenty of stories - and pictures - of mama cats raising mice.
>Scaling down, it's probaby easier for a cat to kill a mouse than for a
>tiger to kill a piglet.
We have three new baby Sumatran tigers at the National Zoo. They were
born earlier this month, but they got their first public pictures
taken yesterday.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Mary Gentle
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:56 +0100 (BST), mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary
> Gentle) wrote:
>
> >In article <wj1i1wh3woj6$.9awke9h...@40tude.net>,
> >b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 29 May 2004 10:41 +0100 (BST) mary_...@cix.co.uk
> >> (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> >> <news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>
> >> in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> > I dunno, that looks like one big mother of a tiger.
> >>
> >> Not to mention one big tiger of a mother.
> >
> >That's what I'm going to think tomorrow - "You little buggers would
> >be far better behaved if I was a tiger..." :)
> >
> >(Not that they were being particularly unmannerly total, but
> >requiring 400 lbs of dozing sow to shift from where you want to
> >wheel a wheelbarrow requires a great deal of moral authority. Or
> >total immunity to pathos. Which in my case I have not got.)
>
> Hmmm. I am now visualizing a sow with saucer-sized sad eyes, like
> those kitschy paintings of dogs, cats, and children that used to be
> so popular.
That isn't so far off the truth as may be imagined. Imagine the quivering
sad snout, the long eyelashes, the utterly piteous look...
Apart from size, /just/ like a painting on black velvet.
> In the new "Shrek 2" movie, by the way, Puss-in-Boots
> uses this as a tactic; he uses big-eyed pathos to lure his opponent
> in close, saying "Aw, isn't he cute", then suddenly MRAOOW!
I feel I may have to see that movie. I rather liked the original Shrek.
And it seems a very reasonable tactic.
Mary Gentle
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:58 +0100 (BST), mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary
> Gentle) wrote:
[...]
> >If I knew anything about dholes, I'd have some idea what that meant.
> >:)
>
> A wild canine species, native to India, that hunts in packs. You may
> remember a scene in Kipling's _Jungle Book_ where Mowgli lures a
> dhole pack into an area occupied by large numbers of wild bees, where
> most of the dholes are stung to death, and escapes from the bees
> himself by jumping off a cliff into the river.
Ah ha! Thank you.
I /knew/ I had a literary reference lurking in the backbrain somewhere,
but for some reason it kept chucking Lord Dunsany and H P Lovecraft at me.
Mowgli never occurred...
Yes, I wouldn't back a dhole against an annoyed pig, in that case. Mind
you, pigs punch considerably above their weight as regards most
theoretical opponents.
Dorothy J Heydt
Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <9b6ib0p0vb5pg01bs...@4ax.com>,
>jo...@jfeldredge.com (John F. Eldredge) wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:58 +0100 (BST), mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary
>> Gentle) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> >If I knew anything about dholes, I'd have some idea what that meant.
>> >:)
>>
>> A wild canine species, native to India, that hunts in packs. You may
>> remember a scene in Kipling's _Jungle Book_ where Mowgli lures a
>> dhole pack into an area occupied by large numbers of wild bees, where
>> most of the dholes are stung to death, and escapes from the bees
>> himself by jumping off a cliff into the river.
>
>Ah ha! Thank you.
>
>I /knew/ I had a literary reference lurking in the backbrain somewhere,
>but for some reason it kept chucking Lord Dunsany and H P Lovecraft at me.
>Mowgli never occurred...
That's an entirely different dhole. Eldritch monster with extra
squiggly bits ad lib.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Cally Soukup
I knew a cat once who deliberately did something much like that. A
visitor had upset his dignity by doing the "grab the whole head with
your hand" thing (that some cats like). This cat was known to be fast
on the d/r/a/w/ claw, but was apparently stunned at the effrontery.
But a few minutes later he started ankletwining the guy who did it.
And when the guy reached down to pet him-- MROWslash!
The folks who animated Shrek2 clearly had studied the way cats really
move. He moved very much like a real cat (well, except for the
obligatory "standing on two legs" bits).
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Mary Gentle
wrote:
Which was what made me reject it as a concept. Although I wouldn't put it
past pigs to see off eldritch monsters.
(And I now have a mental picture of Cthulhu with a beaming pig sprawled in
Its lap, said piggy being scritched by Its many tentacles and squiggly
bits. Conquest of the Old Ones by uber-cute... :)
Marilee J. Layman
I have a few claw scabs on my face. Last week, a neighbor's cat was
waiting for me and it was *really* hot out and I knew the neighbor
wouldn't do anything about it, so I brought the cat in to quarantine
in the guest bathroom and gave it a towel to lie on and food and
water. I checked on it a couple of times (my cats kept sniffing under
the door) and when it was cool enough, I picked it up to take it back
outside and it was fine and purring until I got to the door and it
realized I was putting it back *outside*. So it smacked me left and
right and I turned it around and dropped it and closed the door.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Paul Repacholi
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> I worry about how they managed to get that arrangement -- the pigs
>> and the dogs ought to be OK with each other, and piglets will look
>> at anything and go "Mama!" if you catch them early enough... but
>> _tigers?_ I just hope that's an extremely strong maternal instinct!
> There's plenty of stories - and pictures - of mama cats raising
> mice. Scaling down, it's probaby easier for a cat to kill a mouse
> than for a tiger to kill a piglet.
Being licked by a Tiger is about the same as hugging a chainsaw :(
"One Flick, all gone..."
Well, almost.
--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
Ross Smith
Lovecraft actually called his monsters "bholes". It comes down to us as
"dholes" in most printed versions of the stories because copy-editors
kept correcting his spelling.
--
Ross Smith ......... r-s...@ihug.co.nz ......... Auckland, New Zealand
"We declared war on terror -- it's not even a noun, so, good luck.
After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui."
-- Jon Stewart
Ivana Marinkovic
locus scripsit:
>In article <40b8ea35...@news.hinet.hr>, ivanam_a...@iridis.com
>(Ivana Marinkovic) wrote:
>>(daugters growing up with their mothers etc). He
>> says they switch
>> into killing frenzy on sight of dogs, foam at the mouth and all, and
>> chase and *eat*
>> local strays.
>
>I assume they've been attacked by strays in the past? (But my money would
>always be on the pig; they just significantly out-weigh and out-bite most
>canines.)
>
In the past, the herds have been left in the woods to tend for themselves. This was a
wolves country in the not-so-distant past (maybe 50 years) and stray dogs seem to be
around forever. Likely the old ones taught the young what to do in moments of crysis.
Another story I heard about this breed: the villagers brought some pigs to be
slaughtered into the village (OK, bad style but it's been a long day and I can't have
another coffee or I won't be able to sleep) and they also got a butcher along. They
first treated the butcher to a fair amount of local brandy, and when deemed he was
ripe, brought him to the pens. Now the pigs usually get the idea of what's going on
and cower in some far corner squealing, when one is taken others squeal some more,
etc. Not these pigs. Oh they got the idea all right, but they did not cower in the
far corner. They were standing right there making tooth-sharpening noises and
foaming, looking the butcher straight in the eye. He said flatly, "I'm not doing it."
In the end the pigs were shot with a hunting rifle and from then on all want on as
usual.
>>(I want some, a sow or two that is, but the deal wouldn't
>> have worked
>> because I have dogs, and he only had male piglets for sale).
>
>You know, I wouldn't be surprised if you could raise a gelded male pig
>with dogs -- provided you had the piglet very young, and it was used to
>both the dogs, and to being handled by you.
The problem with a gelding is that if at any time I have to give him/it away, it's
sausages. This is a very very rare breed (100-200 in all) so a breeding specimen
would have a longer life. Well, I'm not all that experienced to handle a boar yet,
but a sow does not promise much in complications. And, as I said, if she does not
behave, it's sausages :-) - although I am a semi-vegetarian (a fish eater). Well, dog
food then.
>But there's always the problem that a casual nip from a pig is rather
>nastier than a casual nip from a dog, so maybe better to play it safe.
I have enough room for them to be housed separately, at least while I am not around
to supervise. I have cats and chickens and dogs bother them none, so maybe they can
get along with a pig or two too. Did I mention some of the dogs are pit bull
terriers? On the nip side they're probably on equal footing...
>Mind you, that would apply to the sows, too. One of our tame pigs is the
>sweetest little girl you could imagine -- but every time she brims, she
>turns into 'Psycho-Slut the Killer Sow', and tries to shag everything she
>can reach, regardless of gender or species. Fortunately, being
>hand-raised, she will respond to a tap on the nose, and back off... but
>five minutes later she sidles back up and starts nibbling your knees
>again. :-)
Well, a neighbour has this drake that might help some...
>> In another part of the country, who is afraid of the wolves, the guys
>> that are
>> killing sheep are wild boars.
>
>Wow. There's a reason the wild boar was known as the most ferocious
>medieval hunting quarry... :-( Mind you, I hadn't heard of them killing
>sheep before; I thought they tended to scavenge rather than hunt. But
>then, they are an archetypal omnivore.
And I forget to mention that the sheep owners can do *$!# little about it, because
the pigs are under the protection of the hunting laws. The pigs obviously learned how
sheep were easy prey, just standing there when scared and don't scatter either so
even the beast that is not built for agility can do them in. This must have happened
recently as I only heard of such behavior this year. And the wild pigs are
fluorishing even though all other game are diminishing or endangered or what. Watch
this space, there's bound to be more of the story.
Thinking more about the species, I know quite a number of hunters who would hunt
nothing but pigs. They say anything else is mowing, not hunting. Strangely enough
some of those are Muslims. I never came around to ask them what they do with the
meat, though.
Mary Gentle
wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> > In article <memo.2004053...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>,
> > Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>I /knew/ I had a literary reference lurking in the backbrain
> >>somewhere, but for some reason it kept chucking Lord Dunsany and H P
> >>Lovecraft at me. Mowgli never occurred...
> >
> > That's an entirely different dhole. Eldritch monster with extra
> > squiggly bits ad lib.
>
> Lovecraft actually called his monsters "bholes". It comes down to us as
> "dholes" in most printed versions of the stories because copy-editors
> kept correcting his spelling.
Wibble....
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
It sounds like natural selection has ensured good survival instincts
in these pigs, breeding them back towards the instincts of their wild
ancestors. This is "good" from the pig's point of view, of course,
not from the butcher's point of view. With a more-domesticated
breed, any animals showing too much tendency towards self-defense
would probably have been the first ones slaughtered, thus breeding
towards docility.
People tend to associate cattle with docility, but wild species such
as the American bison, Cape buffalo, or aurochs are potentially quite
dangerous.
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sharkey
>
> When you see a tiger in the flesh, all sort of, I dunno, ancestral
> memories come rushing back to you. You go... "uh, that's _beautiful_...
> I wonder how sturdy that plexiglas is?"
I've seen them often enough behind plexiglass (etc) that they're
no longer scary ... but:
In the heady days of the dotcom boom, I went to a party. There
was a tiger there. Not for any particular reason, just there
to be walked through the party every now and then and generally
give a bunch of morons something to be blase about.
She wasn't the biggest tiger, or the youngest, but there was
no chance that even a coke-addled dotcom salesweasel was going
to try pulling her tail. It was impossible to speak while she
looked at you.
Later, her handler took her into a side room for a rest.
There was a sofa, one of those bright red designer things,
and the tiger decided to curl up on that just like a cat
would. The sofa wasn't quite right though, a bit too
yuppie and not quite comfortable enough, so she casually
reached out a set of inch-long claws and tore one of the
ends off, flung it across the room, snorted and went to
sleep on the wreckage.
The handler shrugged: "we have very good insurance."
-----sharks
Marilee J. Layman
<jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>People tend to associate cattle with docility, but wild species such
>as the American bison, Cape buffalo, or aurochs are potentially quite
>dangerous.
A cow stepping on your foot can be dangerous!
--
Marilee J. Layman
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Later, her handler took her into a side room for a rest.
> There was a sofa, one of those bright red designer things,
> and the tiger decided to curl up on that just like a cat
> would. The sofa wasn't quite right though, a bit too
> yuppie and not quite comfortable enough, so she casually
> reached out a set of inch-long claws and tore one of the
> ends off, flung it across the room, snorted and went to
> sleep on the wreckage.
>
> The handler shrugged: "we have very good insurance."
Aw, I would have like to be there.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Lovecraft actually called his monsters "bholes". It comes down to us as
> "dholes" in most printed versions of the stories because copy-editors
> kept correcting his spelling.
I Know The Feeling :-(
Nicola Browne
news:1gen7fw.1f42pfa1fbvqccN%ada...@spamcop.net
>
> I Know The Feeling :-(
How is it going?
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> "Anna Feruglio Dal Dan" <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:1gen7fw.1f42pfa1fbvqccN%ada...@spamcop.net
>
>
> >
> > I Know The Feeling :-(
>
> How is it going?
I opened the file on Saturday and immediately I had to go chop things
up. Violently.
Partly the problem is that they tell me that the Track Changes feature
of Word messes up their typesetting software, so that editing has to be
done by carefully highlighting and adding comments in brackets in red.
I have also been isntructed to proceed similarly, which means that
working on the text is materially long and labour-intensive: I have to
do the work, then highlight it, or insert a highlighted explanation of
why I don't think it's necessary - this last wouldn't be a problem if
this was a copy-edit, but it's more in the way of editorial suggestion,
this being an editor who is doing copy-editing stuff.
Partly the problem is that I really, really do not want to end up
quarrelling with this editor, but I am so antagonized by her tone that I
don't know if I stet something because I believe it has to stay or
because I'm mad. Some of her changes are trivial typos or lapsus calami
mistakes that I would have accepted with one click if we could use the
Track Changes thing (it would help if they didn't have a sarcastic
comment attached). Some are part of her campaing against repetitions and
I should probably accept them. Some of them are weird - for example, she
often doesn't get the concept of metaphor, and has objected to "the
ruthless solidity of the bulwarks" because she says "ruthless" can only
be applied to a human, and to "a light-fingered terror touched his
heart" suggesting "a terror light as the touch of soft fingers" instead.
All in all, it's _both_ a very light editing and one that will take me
forever to riview. I've occasionally asked colleagues to edit my
translations and the editing was a lot more intrusive, with reworking of
sentences and the like: I was expecting something like that. Instead,
it's just commas and individual words here and there. Lots of them.
Irina Rempt
wrote:
> Some of them are weird
> - for example, she often doesn't get the concept of metaphor, and has
> objected to "the ruthless solidity of the bulwarks" because she says
> "ruthless" can only be applied to a human, and to "a light-fingered
> terror touched his heart" suggesting "a terror light as the touch of
> soft fingers" instead.
I'd stet those. It's a question of style, and she obviously wants you to
make it something she wrote instead of something you wrote. (And "a
terror light as the touch as soft fingers" is absolutely silly)
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 29-May-2004
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> On Monday 31 May 2004 11:56 Anna Feruglio Dal Dan (ada...@spamcop.net)
> wrote:
>
> > Some of them are weird
> > - for example, she often doesn't get the concept of metaphor, and has
> > objected to "the ruthless solidity of the bulwarks" because she says
> > "ruthless" can only be applied to a human, and to "a light-fingered
> > terror touched his heart" suggesting "a terror light as the touch of
> > soft fingers" instead.
>
> I'd stet those. It's a question of style, and she obviously wants you to
> make it something she wrote instead of something you wrote. (And "a
> terror light as the touch as soft fingers" is absolutely silly)
I know. And I have. Only I have this dreadful feeling she's going to
make trouble for me.
My first idea was to accept as many of her changes as possible, since
they aren't earth-shaking anyway (with the exception of silly things
like taking out all the "sirs", for example, or taking out the
metaphors.) But if I do that, I will have confirmed her opinion that my
novel needed A Lot Of Work and that... well, that annoys, me, basically,
something I know I should discount. And I have the suspicion that she's
going not to like my stets anyway. I haven't actually been stetting them
- I have been scribbling something like "No, I think this has better
stay" highlighted in red. It would save me time to simply write "stet"
but I'm afraid she might consider that arrogant. On the other hand, if I
justify myself I leave her space to argue back.
Nicola Browne
> Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > >
>
> >
> > How is it going?
>
> I opened the file on Saturday and immediately I had to go chop things
> up. Violently.
: ) As long as it wasn't people that's probably OK
>> All in all, it's _both_ a very light editing and one that will take me
> forever to riview. I've occasionally asked colleagues to edit my
> translations and the editing was a lot more intrusive, with reworking of
> sentences and the like: I was expecting something like that. Instead,
> it's just commas and individual words here and there. Lots of them.
Doesn't sound too bad. Definitely not as serious as it might have been.
As for labour intensity - I think edits are v time consuming.
Until recently I always got annotations to the text by hand, which I
would change on my pc, print out and then annotate myself by hand.
I usually also write a long, complicated letter explaining what I've
done and why.
Currently I've had to go back to the beginning of my edits because
reading what I'd done too far just didn't work : (
Mary Gentle
Eric Jarvis
> On Monday 31 May 2004 11:56 Anna Feruglio Dal Dan (ada...@spamcop.net)
> wrote:
>
> > Some of them are weird
> > - for example, she often doesn't get the concept of metaphor, and has
> > objected to "the ruthless solidity of the bulwarks" because she says
> > "ruthless" can only be applied to a human, and to "a light-fingered
> > terror touched his heart" suggesting "a terror light as the touch of
> > soft fingers" instead.
>
> I'd stet those. It's a question of style, and she obviously wants you to
> make it something she wrote instead of something you wrote. (And "a
> terror light as the touch as soft fingers" is absolutely silly)
>
I largely agree. However, I'm used to light-fingered having the subsidiary
meaning of thieving/prone to theft. So unless that resonance is intended
it may be worth changing.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Warrick M. Locke
mary_...@cix.co.uk says...
> In article <1gejwrz.13ve9gi7a9zxN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> >
> > When you see a tiger in the flesh, all sort of, I dunno, ancestral
> > memories come rushing back to you. You go... "uh, that's _beautiful_...
> > I wonder how sturdy that plexiglas is?"
>
> look in its eye spells 'You are lunch'!", but the principle's the same. :)
>
>
Never seen a tiger except in zoos, but... well, everyone had assured me
that there were no longer cougar (a.k.a. "catamount") in our area. One
afternoon building fence, I took a break and a walk round the neighbor's
back field, and came upon kittycat finishing his lunch of cottontail
rabbit. Roughly the size of a Dalmatian but longer and thinner, and with
the distinct black tuft on the tail. Just the other side of a good-sized
juniper, so maybe fifty feet away, which he proceeded to demonstrate was
well within leaping-distance, fortunately for me in the other direction.
Beautiful animal, but I'm quite happy that he'd had a few bites of rabbit
before the encounter :-)
Regards,
Ric
Warrick M. Locke
says...
[...]
>
> What you're _currently_ thinking about doing concedes all the power in
> the relationship to someone you are certain does not have your interest
> included in her understanding of her own best interests. (Because
> you're accepting an obligation to do nothing that offends an editor who
> is being capricious, unreasonable, and dismissive.)
>
> This isn't in your interest to do; neither is throwing away more and
> more of yourself in the hopes of getting rid of anything which might
> conceivably offend someone.
>
>
Write that on the wall. In fluorescent orange (or green, if it gives more
contrast.)
Is this personal? Or is it simply the motivation of the bully: "I can
smash this, therefore I own it?"
Regards,
Ric
Patricia C. Wrede
news:slrncbmce...@grithr.uniserve.com...
> In <1gengbb.1bp6fo4iwidbaN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
> > Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
> >> I'd stet those. It's a question of style, and she obviously wants you
> >> to make it something she wrote instead of something you wrote. (And
> >> "a terror light as the touch as soft fingers" is absolutely silly)
> >
> > I know. And I have. Only I have this dreadful feeling she's going to
> > make trouble for me.
>
> own heart ahead of time.
>
> Do an honest, professional job, and assume she's going to do likewise.
And remember that in publishing, bureaucracy and incompetence are always a
more likely explanation than malice.
You've been handed a copy-editor who doesn't get the genre, who doesn't get
your style, and who, from the sound of it, may well have delusions of
Literary Art (and the concomittant conviction that SF is not Art). You are,
if I read your posts correctly, one of the first SF authors to be published
by this publisher in an attempt to start a new SF line. You are breaking
trail for all the SF authors who will follow you; if you concede to too many
points to non-genre sensibilities, you are going to make it harder for
everyone who follows you (and, incidentally, for this publisher to develop a
successful SF line).
"Stet" is neither rude nor abrupt. "Goddamit, leave my prose alone, you
moron!" is rude. "Bugger off," is rude and abrupt (and I have known authors
who have said similar things to their copy-editors...and a great many *more*
authors who wanted very badly to say it, but refrained). "Stet" is the
accepted professional version of "No, leave that as it is." Actually
*saying* "No, leave that as it is, please" instead of "stet" makes you look
either like someone who is still too green to know what "stet" means and
that you should use it, or like someone who can be bullied into doing what
the copy-editor wants.
If the copy-editor is the *same* as your regular editor (which happens in
the U.S. sometimes with small and medium-sized presses that are short on
staff; I don't know if it's common in Italy), a little extra politeness and
consultation is adviseable. You still say "stet," but you can (if you think
you are able to be tactful enough in person or on the phone) call on the
editor and say things like, "I noticed that you deleted all the 'sirs;' I'm
afraid that won't be acceptable to the SF readers, who will be expecting
something like military discipline on a Space Navy ship." and "I notice you
changed a lot of the syntax to traditional Italian forms; I deliberately
chose to use the modern ones because I'm writing in a *future* society where
I think the language will have changed even more, and I'm trying to convey
that." If this copy-editor is *not* the same as your regular editor, it's
much easier: you call up the regular editor and say pretty much these same
things, but you don't have to worry about being quite so tactful. They need
to know this stuff -- they need to know that Copy-Editor X may be hot stuff
when it comes to editing literary and romantic fiction, but she's a disaster
when it comes to SF genre stuff.
If you don't feel able to do the explaining, just put "stet" and turn the
ms. back in. And go over the galleys very carefully to make sure they *did*
stet the stuff you marked.
Patricia C. Wrede
Carl Dershem
news:memo.2004053...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>> A cow stepping on your foot can be dangerous!
>
> So can a pig...
A lot of people have never really seen pigs live, and have no idea how big
(or how mean) they can be. One of the downsides of an increasinbgly urban
society.
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In <1gengbb.1bp6fo4iwidbaN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> onsendan:
> > Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
> >> I'd stet those. It's a question of style, and she obviously wants you
> >> to make it something she wrote instead of something you wrote. (And
> >> "a terror light as the touch as soft fingers" is absolutely silly)
> >
> > I know. And I have. Only I have this dreadful feeling she's going to
> > make trouble for me.
>
> Remember your Bujold -- don't go selling yourself to the enemy in your
> own heart ahead of time.
>
> Do an honest, professional job, and assume she's going to do likewise.
I'm trying to find the right space in my mind to do that. Going "I'm not
going to accept any of your changes, neener-neener" is not it, probably.
>
> What you're _currently_ thinking about doing concedes all the power in
> the relationship to someone you are certain does not have your interest
> included in her understanding of her own best interests. (Because
> you're accepting an obligation to do nothing that offends an editor who
> is being capricious, unreasonable, and dismissive.)
>
> This isn't in your interest to do; neither is throwing away more and
> more of yourself in the hopes of getting rid of anything which might
> conceivably offend someone.
Sigh. You're right. But it's hard to do, since it's the only thing I can
counterbalance the Neener-neener temptation with. I am probably missing
some bits, and some pretty vital ones. :-(
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
Actually, it's a lot different in Italian ("Un terrore leggero gli
sfioro' il cuore"): but it's largely untranslatable, because the only
verb I can think of for "sfiorare" is, well... to finger. :-)
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> And remember that in publishing, bureaucracy and incompetence are always a
> more likely explanation than malice.
I have come to the conclusion that she just couldn't get into a
complicit frame of mind with the manuscript. It happens: I know I've
bungled up at least a translation because I deeply despised the style
and could not stop looking down at it. The publisher (the same I'm
working for now, Meridiano Zero) called me back and told me "this will
not do" and I went back and revised the manuscript _respecting_ it, and
I'm grateful to him for that. But I've got a lot of experience with
books that weren't exactly my cup of tea and I've learned to develop
complicity with them anyway. She's new to this job.
If you don't feel complicity for a work, then even "'Twas the winter of
our discontent/made glorious summer by this sun of York" is opened to be
objected to.
> "Stet" is neither rude nor abrupt. "Goddamit, leave my prose alone, you
> moron!" is rude. "Bugger off," is rude and abrupt (and I have known authors
> who have said similar things to their copy-editors...and a great many *more*
> authors who wanted very badly to say it, but refrained). "Stet" is the
> accepted professional version of "No, leave that as it is." Actually
> *saying* "No, leave that as it is, please" instead of "stet" makes you look
> either like someone who is still too green to know what "stet" means and
> that you should use it, or like someone who can be bullied into doing what
> the copy-editor wants.
I don't actually know if "stet" is used in Italy: I have to ask the
people at my publisher's. They will know.
>
> If the copy-editor is the *same* as your regular editor
Yes, this lady is both the editor and copy-editor _and_ press agent for
the publisher. She's the one who does all the editing business, plus PR,
for the publisher, from what I gathered. It's a very small publisher,
but this is normal in Italy.
>(which happens in
> the U.S. sometimes with small and medium-sized presses that are short on
> staff; I don't know if it's common in Italy), a little extra politeness and
> consultation is adviseable. You still say "stet," but you can (if you think
> you are able to be tactful enough in person or on the phone) call on the
> editor and say things like, "I noticed that you deleted all the 'sirs;' I'm
> afraid that won't be acceptable to the SF readers, who will be expecting
> something like military discipline on a Space Navy ship." and "I notice you
> changed a lot of the syntax to traditional Italian forms; I deliberately
> chose to use the modern ones because I'm writing in a *future* society where
> I think the language will have changed even more, and I'm trying to convey
> that."
That's my case. I have to find a firm but polite way of doing that. It's
perhaps best done in a separate letter going friendly over the chief
reasons I stets things.
> If you don't feel able to do the explaining, just put "stet" and turn the
> ms. back in. And go over the galleys very carefully to make sure they *did*
> stet the stuff you marked.
That's part of the trouble I'm anticipating.
(Did you get my email, btw?)
David Bilek
>
>> And remember that in publishing, bureaucracy and incompetence are always a
>> more likely explanation than malice.
>
>I have come to the conclusion that she just couldn't get into a
>complicit frame of mind with the manuscript. It happens: I know I've
>bungled up at least a translation because I deeply despised the style
>and could not stop looking down at it. The publisher (the same I'm
>working for now, Meridiano Zero) called me back and told me "this will
>not do" and I went back and revised the manuscript _respecting_ it, and
>I'm grateful to him for that. But I've got a lot of experience with
>books that weren't exactly my cup of tea and I've learned to develop
>complicity with them anyway. She's new to this job.
>
>If you don't feel complicity for a work, then even "'Twas the winter of
>our discontent/made glorious summer by this sun of York" is opened to be
>objected to.
Yep. For example I might suggest it makes more sense in context as
"Now is the winter..."
-David
Mary Gentle
(Carl Dershem) wrote:
> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> news:memo.2004053...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>
> >> A cow stepping on your foot can be dangerous!
> >
> > So can a pig...
>
> A lot of people have never really seen pigs live, and have no idea how
> big (or how mean) they can be. One of the downsides of an
> increasinbgly urban society.
Mind you, a fair number haven't seen cows, either...
But it is entertaining, at the local Open Farm, to watch people coming
face to face with the rare breed sows. A wonderful expression of "They're
THAT big?!" :)
Mary
Patricia C. Wrede
news:1genwsr.vzxw3zihn5dnN%ada...@spamcop.net...
> (Did you get my email, btw?)
Only just now; I'll get back to you on it shortly.
Patricia C. Wrede
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
>news:memo.2004053...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>
>>> A cow stepping on your foot can be dangerous!
>>
>> So can a pig...
>
>A lot of people have never really seen pigs live, and have no idea how big
>(or how mean) they can be. One of the downsides of an increasinbgly urban
>society.
Oh, I've seen pigs, but we were talking about cow-like critters.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
Dal Dan) wrote:
>Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Irina Rempt ir...@valdyas.org wrote:
>> > On Monday 31 May 2004 11:56 Anna Feruglio Dal Dan (ada...@spamcop.net)
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Some of them are weird
>> > > - for example, she often doesn't get the concept of metaphor, and has
>> > > objected to "the ruthless solidity of the bulwarks" because she says
>> > > "ruthless" can only be applied to a human, and to "a light-fingered
>> > > terror touched his heart" suggesting "a terror light as the touch of
>> > > soft fingers" instead.
>> >
>> > I'd stet those. It's a question of style, and she obviously wants you to
>> > make it something she wrote instead of something you wrote. (And "a
>> > terror light as the touch as soft fingers" is absolutely silly)
>> >
>>
>> I largely agree. However, I'm used to light-fingered having the subsidiary
>> meaning of thieving/prone to theft. So unless that resonance is intended
>> it may be worth changing.
>
>Actually, it's a lot different in Italian ("Un terrore leggero gli
>sfioro' il cuore"): but it's largely untranslatable, because the only
>verb I can think of for "sfiorare" is, well... to finger. :-)
If I may suggest "a feather-fingered terror", which still does have,
for me, a suggestion of "rosy-fingered dawn" and lightness.
I don't know how it would sound in Italian, though. I mean, "un
terrore leggero come un ... feather" :-) doesn't exactly sound
elegant. And my Italian is not good enough to come with a better
wording.
vlatko
--
http://www.niribanimeso.org/eng/
http://www.michaelswanwick.com/
at htnet, not hinet
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> If I may suggest "a feather-fingered terror", which still does have,
> for me, a suggestion of "rosy-fingered dawn" and lightness.
>
> I don't know how it would sound in Italian, though. I mean, "un
> terrore leggero come un ... feather" :-) doesn't exactly sound
> elegant. And my Italian is not good enough to come with a better
> wording.
Feather-fingered is good for English - I wonder how I translated it? I
should look it up - I actually translated this chapter.
But "sfiorare" has exactly that suggestion of a light, almost feathery
touch...
Kai Henningsen
> People tend to associate cattle with docility,
Female or gelded cattle only.
Bulls tend to be seen as rather dangerous. See red flag, see matador, see
not-crossing-that-meadow, see any number of other well-known variants.
Contrast SF/F authors who think vegetarian species must be un-war-like.
Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
- Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
Catja Pafort
> I know. And I have. Only I have this dreadful feeling she's going to
> make trouble for me.
We can't comment on that. How much of that perception is knowing her,
knowing the publishing house, and how much is your mind drawing up worst
case scenarios? (I am good at those, sigh)
> My first idea was to accept as many of her changes as possible, since
> they aren't earth-shaking anyway (with the exception of silly things
> like taking out all the "sirs", for example, or taking out the
> metaphors.)
That sounds like a good strategy.
> But if I do that, I will have confirmed her opinion that my
> novel needed A Lot Of Work and that... well, that annoys, me, basically,
> something I know I should discount.
Why fight over something you don't care about?
Please, Patricia and Mary and everyone who has sold more than one novel,
can you confirm what I've been told that this is *perfectly normal*? It
was Diane Duane, I think, who pulled out one of *her* accepted MSS - and
it was riddled with red. (No, wait, I think it was Peter Morewood,
because he said he was dead proud of the one page that didn't have
corrections on it. One. In a whole book.)
I've also heard, and it made sense to me, that what editors want is
professionalism - and that means, to my mind, considering each and every
change; neither accepting all nor rejecting them out of hand. If you
feel 'sir' is important; stick by your guns. If your style contains a
moderate amount of repetition, try and do a wordcount on them to see
just *how much* you repeat - and maybe change _some_. If she hates your
style, tough.
> And I have the suspicion that she's
> going not to like my stets anyway. I haven't actually been stetting them
> - I have been scribbling something like "No, I think this has better
> stay" highlighted in red. It would save me time to simply write "stet"
> but I'm afraid she might consider that arrogant. On the other hand, if I
> justify myself I leave her space to argue back.
Don't get defensive. Stet, and if it's something global, like 'sir' you
might add a note at the beginning to say 'this is an important feature,
every instance has been stetted.'
Catja
Patricia C. Wrede
news:1geoaj3.nr1sp215rqc6tN%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid...
> Anna FDD wrote:
> > But if I do that, I will have confirmed her opinion that my
> > novel needed A Lot Of Work and that... well, that annoys, me, basically,
> > something I know I should discount.
>
> Why fight over something you don't care about?
>
> Please, Patricia and Mary and everyone who has sold more than one novel,
> can you confirm what I've been told that this is *perfectly normal*?
I responded to Anna on this in e-mail; there are some other things possibly
going on.
But, Anna's specific situation aside, yes, it is quite normal for a ms. to
come back from a copy-edit full of red marks. It is also normal for the
writer to find this infuriating. It is usual for the writer, after much
teeth-grinding, to let the little,
this-stuff-isn't-worth-the-effort-of-fighting-about changes go through, and
to pitch a fit if necessary to keep the important stuff intact; what things
fall into each category differ enormously from writer to writer, and to
complain bitterly to everyone in earshot about anything she didn't feel she
could quite justify stetting.
And NONE OF IT has anything whatever to do with the writer's actual writing
ability.
> Don't get defensive. Stet, and if it's something global, like 'sir' you
> might add a note at the beginning to say 'this is an important feature,
> every instance has been stetted.'
What you said.
Patricia C. Wrede
Brian M. Scott
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
<news:1geoczi.1hbbf874g6st7N%ada...@spamcop.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>> If I may suggest "a feather-fingered terror", which still does have,
>> for me, a suggestion of "rosy-fingered dawn" and lightness.
>> I don't know how it would sound in Italian, though. I mean, "un
>> terrore leggero come un ... feather" :-) doesn't exactly sound
>> elegant. And my Italian is not good enough to come with a better
>> wording.
> Feather-fingered is good for English - I wonder how I translated it? I
> should look it up - I actually translated this chapter.
> But "sfiorare" has exactly that suggestion of a light, almost feathery
> touch...
Judging by the dictionary offerings for <sfiorare>, I'd be
tempted to translate it as 'A delicate terror brushed his
heart'. ('Delicate' because 'light terror' just doesn't
work in English. Though I suppose that one could use the
adverb instead: 'Terror lightly brushed his heart'.)
Brian
Dan Goodman
> jo...@jfeldredge.com (John F . Eldredge) wrote on 30.05.04 in
>
>> People tend to associate cattle with docility,
>
> Female or gelded cattle only.
Don't count on it with cows.
With oxen, it might be true.
> Bulls tend to be seen as rather dangerous. See red flag, see matador,
> see not-crossing-that-meadow, see any number of other well-known
> variants.
>
> Contrast SF/F authors who think vegetarian species must be
> un-war-like.
Larry Niven has done some ret-conning to explain why the Puppeteers are
peaceful. And also why the Kzin are so unlike any Earthly predatory
mammal. (Wolves don't go after the strongest animal in a herd; they go
after the weak ones. And they don't spend all their spare time fighting
among themselves.)
But he certainly goofed on such things when he set up the Known Space
universe.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>kaih=99tSr...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) wrote in
>
>> jo...@jfeldredge.com (John F . Eldredge) wrote on 30.05.04 in
>>
>>> People tend to associate cattle with docility,
>>
>> Female or gelded cattle only.
>
>Don't count on it with cows.
>
>With oxen, it might be true.
>
>> Bulls tend to be seen as rather dangerous. See red flag, see matador,
>> see not-crossing-that-meadow, see any number of other well-known
>> variants.
>>
>> Contrast SF/F authors who think vegetarian species must be
>> un-war-like.
>
>Larry Niven has done some ret-conning to explain why the Puppeteers are
>peaceful. And also why the Kzin are so unlike any Earthly predatory
>mammal. (Wolves don't go after the strongest animal in a herd; they go
>after the weak ones. And they don't spend all their spare time fighting
>among themselves.)
>
>But he certainly goofed on such things when he set up the Known Space
>universe.
He's sloppy. Cf. the very notorious bit where he had wossname
travelling around the world to celebrate his birthday at the
proper hour in the given time zone ... only he had him going the
wrong way.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
Delicate is a very good choice, but brushed doesn't have the nuances of
a caress that the orginal has... this is one of the problems I have in
translating from my Italian: I tend to try to translate things when it
would be ideal to just find something completely different in English.
It's very hard to let go, and the result is an English far clunkier than
when I write directly iin it.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I responded to Anna on this in e-mail; there are some other things possibly
> going on.
I haven't got the email, though. :-(
Karen Leonard
news:1gegxkz.ekuaa75qvo3eN%ada...@spamcop.net:
> "The feline maternal instinct is well-known, but Bengali Tiger Saimai,
> living in Sriracha Zoo, near Bangkok, is truly exceptional. Saimai has
> adopted four piglets, here posing for photos with bows and little
> tiger-stripes coats, to blend in a little with their adopted mother.
> Sriracha zoo hosts about 400 great cats and has a "happy family"
> program whereby pigs, dogs and tigers are brought up, sleep, eat and
> live together in the same cages."
>
Four-legged feeder guppies?
(g,d,r)
Karen
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
Dal Dan) wrote:
>this is one of the problems I have in
>translating from my Italian: I tend to try to translate things when it
>would be ideal to just find something completely different in English.
>It's very hard to let go, and the result is an English far clunkier than
>when I write directly iin it.
Eh, isn't it always the case, whether with Italian or Croatian or
whatever? I found myself using Croatian constructions in English even
if I know English says it in a different way. :-)
Patricia C. Wrede
> Patricia C. Wrede <pwred...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I responded to Anna on this in e-mail; there are some other things
possibly
> > going on.
>
> I haven't got the email, though. :-(
OK; I'll resend it.
Patricia C. Wrede
Dorothy J Heydt
Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>
>Eh, isn't it always the case, whether with Italian or Croatian or
>whatever? I found myself using Croatian constructions in English even
>if I know English says it in a different way. :-)
Don't let that stop you. English might easily pick up the
construction and run with it. We do things like that.
Things like "it goes without saying" and "are you coming with?"
and "my bad."
Irina Rempt
wrote:
> Don't let that stop you. English might easily pick up the
> construction and run with it. We do things like that.
>
> Things like "it goes without saying" and "are you coming with?"
> and "my bad."
I never realized that "it goes without saying" was not originally an
English construction. What language is it from, and what is it in that
language?
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 29-May-2004
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 06:10:32 GMT, ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio
> Dal Dan) wrote:
>
> >this is one of the problems I have in
> >translating from my Italian: I tend to try to translate things when it
> >would be ideal to just find something completely different in English.
> >It's very hard to let go, and the result is an English far clunkier than
> >when I write directly iin it.
>
> Eh, isn't it always the case, whether with Italian or Croatian or
> whatever? I found myself using Croatian constructions in English even
> if I know English says it in a different way. :-)
Yes: one of the reasons I switched to writing in English. It's much
easier for me to translate it into Italian then.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> On Tuesday 01 June 2004 20:09 Dorothy J Heydt (djh...@kithrup.com)
> wrote:
>
> > Don't let that stop you. English might easily pick up the
> > construction and run with it. We do things like that.
> >
> > Things like "it goes without saying" and "are you coming with?"
> > and "my bad."
>
> I never realized that "it goes without saying" was not originally an
> English construction. What language is it from, and what is it in that
> language?
French, I guess: "Il va sans dire"
Dorothy J Heydt
Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>On Tuesday 01 June 2004 20:09 Dorothy J Heydt (djh...@kithrup.com)
>wrote:
>
>> Don't let that stop you. English might easily pick up the
>> construction and run with it. We do things like that.
>>
>> Things like "it goes without saying" and "are you coming with?"
>> and "my bad."
>
>I never realized that "it goes without saying" was not originally an
>English construction. What language is it from, and what is it in that
>language?
French. "Cela va sans dire."
We borrow vocabulary a lot more readily than syntax, as James has
pointed out, but from time to time a syntactical construction
does slip through.
Brian M. Scott
<ir...@valdyas.org> wrote in
<news:1830272.y...@calcifer.valdyas.org> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> On Tuesday 01 June 2004 20:09 Dorothy J Heydt (djh...@kithrup.com)
> wrote:
>> Don't let that stop you. English might easily pick up the
>> construction and run with it. We do things like that.
>> Things like "it goes without saying" and "are you coming with?"
>> and "my bad."
<shudder>
> I never realized that "it goes without saying" was not originally an
> English construction. What language is it from, and what is it in that
> language?
I believe that it's a calque on <il va sans dire>.
Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
><ir...@valdyas.org> wrote in
>> I never realized that "it goes without saying" was not originally an
>> English construction. What language is it from, and what is it in that
>> language?
>
>I believe that it's a calque on <il va sans dire>.
I believe the same. "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish, and
I *think* "my bad" may be from Chinese. At least, the first
person I ever heard/////saw using it had been brought up in Hong
Kong; six months later it was all over Usenet. Its time had
come, I guess.
Irina Rempt
wrote:
> I believe the same. "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
Or just plain German, "kommst du mit?"
Dorothy J Heydt
Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>On Tuesday 01 June 2004 21:53 Dorothy J Heydt (djh...@kithrup.com)
>wrote:
>
>> I believe the same. "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
>
>Or just plain German, "kommst du mit?"
Yes, but it got into American English via Yiddish (which is of
course, just a very successful if perhaps not always prestigious
dialect of German).
Dan Goodman
news:HynB...@kithrup.com:
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>><ir...@valdyas.org> wrote in
>
>>> I never realized that "it goes without saying" was not originally an
>>> English construction. What language is it from, and what is it in
>>> that language?
>>
>>I believe that it's a calque on <il va sans dire>.
>
> I believe the same. "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
In the Twin Cities, mostly from German and (if I recall correctly)
Norwegian.
> and
> I *think* "my bad" may be from Chinese. At least, the first
> person I ever heard/////saw using it had been brought up in Hong
> Kong; six months later it was all over Usenet. Its time had
> come, I guess.
Dan Goodman
@kithrup.com:
> Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>>On Tuesday 01 June 2004 21:53 Dorothy J Heydt (djh...@kithrup.com)
>>wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the same. "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
>>
>>Or just plain German, "kommst du mit?"
>
> Yes, but it got into American English via Yiddish
In the Twin Cities, probably not.
> (which is of
> course, just a very successful if perhaps not always prestigious
> dialect of German).
With sometimes-large differences in vocabulary. Words related to
religion and ethics mostly from Hebrew; a number of words from various
Slavic languages. Plus at least one from Ancient Greek: "chutzpah"
derives from "hubris".
Dorothy J Heydt
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>
>Plus at least one from Ancient Greek: "chutzpah"
>derives from "hubris".
Does it really? Far out.
Brian M. Scott
wrote in <news:Xns94FBC2607E0...@209.98.13.60>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in news:HynEGy.9I2
> @kithrup.com:
[...]
>> Yes, but it got into American English via Yiddish
> In the Twin Cities, probably not.
>> (which is of
>> course, just a very successful if perhaps not always prestigious
>> dialect of German).
> With sometimes-large differences in vocabulary. Words related to
> religion and ethics mostly from Hebrew; a number of words from various
> Slavic languages. Plus at least one from Ancient Greek: "chutzpah"
> derives from "hubris".
Yiddish got it from Late Hebrew <h.us.pā>, according to the
Amer. Her. Dict.; is the Hebrew supposed to be from Greek?
Brian
Petrazickis
> I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
> http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
Speaking of war pigs, I like kungfumonkey's:
http://www.deviantart.com/view/7733520/
--
Leons Petrazickis
import java.lang.Disclaimer;
http://slashdot.org/~LPetrazickis/journal/
Dan Goodman
> On 02 Jun 2004 00:06:29 GMT Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com>
>
>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in news:HynEGy.9I2
>
>>> Yes, but it got into American English via Yiddish
>
>> In the Twin Cities, probably not.
>
>>> (which is of
>>> course, just a very successful if perhaps not always prestigious
>>> dialect of German).
>
>> With sometimes-large differences in vocabulary. Words related to
>> religion and ethics mostly from Hebrew; a number of words from various
>> Slavic languages. Plus at least one from Ancient Greek: "chutzpah"
>> derives from "hubris".
>
> Yiddish got it from Late Hebrew <h.us.pā>, according to the
> Amer. Her. Dict.; is the Hebrew supposed to be from Greek?
So I understand.
Petter Hesselberg
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
>
> In the Twin Cities, mostly from German and (if I recall correctly)
> Norwegian.
Could be--the word order is the same in Norwegian as in German: "Blir du
med?" (Literally, "Becomes you with?"; the German (as well as the
corresponding Danish and Swedish expressions) all translate to "Comes
you with?" Either way illustrate differences in the use of the gerund.
In any case, the key aspect seems to be the use of a proposition to end
the sentence with. Neither German nor the Scandinavian languages object
to this.)
--
Petter Hesselberg
http://www.petterhesselberg.com/
[Email: petter at petterhesselberg dot com]
Dorothy J Heydt
Petter Hesselberg <pet...@no-spam.com> wrote:
>Dan Goodman wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
>>
>> In the Twin Cities, mostly from German and (if I recall correctly)
>> Norwegian.
>
>Could be--the word order is the same in Norwegian as in German: "Blir du
>med?" (Literally, "Becomes you with?"; the German (as well as the
>corresponding Danish and Swedish expressions) all translate to "Comes
>you with?" Either way illustrate differences in the use of the gerund.
>In any case, the key aspect seems to be the use of a proposition to end
>the sentence with. Neither German nor the Scandinavian languages object
>to this.)
What makes it not standard typical English is that it doesn't say
with *whom.* "Are you coming with us?" "Are you coming with me?"
But not, if you're a Middle-American WASP, just "Are you coming
with?". The first time I heard it used, I understood it
perfectly, but it sounded very strange.
David Goldfarb
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> Judging by the dictionary offerings for <sfiorare>, I'd be
>> tempted to translate it as 'A delicate terror brushed his
>> heart'. ('Delicate' because 'light terror' just doesn't
>> work in English. Though I suppose that one could use the
>> adverb instead: 'Terror lightly brushed his heart'.)
>
>Delicate is a very good choice, but brushed doesn't have the nuances of
>a caress that the orginal has...
Well, what about, "A delicate terror caressed his heart"?
I rather like that, in fact.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Atheists view their theist friends with
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | much the same feeling as nonsmokers do
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | their smoking friends."
| -- David R. Henry, on rec.arts.comics.xbooks
Brian M. Scott
<pet...@no-spam.com> wrote in
<news:Khevc.5110$eH3....@news4.e.nsc.no> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Dan Goodman wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
>> In the Twin Cities, mostly from German and (if I recall correctly)
>> Norwegian.
> Could be--the word order is the same in Norwegian as in German: "Blir du
> med?" (Literally, "Becomes you with?"; the German (as well as the
> corresponding Danish and Swedish expressions) all translate to "Comes
> you with?" Either way illustrate differences in the use of the gerund.
> In any case, the key aspect seems to be the use of a proposition to end
> the sentence with. Neither German nor the Scandinavian languages object
> to this.)
What makes the English a little unusual isn't the final
preposition; it's the fact that the preposition has no
object. It's being used like the separable element of a
German separable verb (e.g., <mitkommen>). The Scandinavian
languages don't formally have separable verbs, but they do
tend to turn prepositions into adverbs by omitting the
object, and the effect is much like that of a German
separable verb. In Old Norse, for instance, you can say
<hann finnr, at þar var stungit í sverði Sigmundar> 'he
notices that Sigmundr's sword was thrust into it', where the
preposition <í> 'in' has no object and instead modifies
<stungit> 'thrust'.
Brian
Neil Barnes
> and I *think* "my bad" may be from Chinese. At least, the
> first person I ever heard/////saw using it had been brought up
> in Hong Kong; six months later it was all over Usenet. Its
> time had come, I guess.
All your bad are belong to us?
<g,d,r>
Neil
--
note - the email address in this message is valid but the
signal to noise ratio approaches -40dB. A more useful address
is a similar account at ntlworld-fullstop-com.
Mary Gentle
spamPET...@sympatico.ca (Petrazickis) wrote:
> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan wrote:
>
> > I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
> > http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
>
> Speaking of war pigs, I like kungfumonkey's:
> http://www.deviantart.com/view/7733520/
Has a certain noble air, doesn't he? :)
Mary
Most recently published:
1610: A SUNDIAL IN A GRAVE, novel, Orion UK, hc & tpb
CARTOMANCY, short story collection, Orion UK, pb
Dorothy J Heydt
Neil Barnes <nailed_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>news:HynB...@kithrup.com:
>
>
>> and I *think* "my bad" may be from Chinese. At least, the
>> first person I ever heard/////saw using it had been brought up
>> in Hong Kong; six months later it was all over Usenet. Its
You are DEFINITELY feeling better. :)
Dorothy J Heydt
Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <XU9vc.20604$Hn.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
>spamPET...@sympatico.ca (Petrazickis) wrote:
>
>> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan wrote:
>>
>> > I'm sure you'll find them cute, Mary. Even the cat.
>> > http://www.repubblica.it/popup/servizi/2004/tigre/index.html
>>
>> Speaking of war pigs, I like kungfumonkey's:
>> http://www.deviantart.com/view/7733520/
>
>Has a certain noble air, doesn't he? :)
This reminds me that when Hal figures out how to mail Mary the
picture of the Brave Crawlspace Vermin we must also include a
picture of a Grutt. Perhaps the Gourmet Grutt, since he's an NPC
who won't attack and will stand still to get his screenshot
taken. He's a great big bipedal war pig.
David Bilek
Uh, I don't think that's sufficient to establish an etymology!
"My bad" is from inner city black youth basketball culture and AFAIK
is original to it.
-David
Karin Almehed
>>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> [...]
>
>>>> "Are you coming with?" is from Yiddish,
> What makes the English a little unusual isn't the final
> preposition; it's the fact that the preposition has no
> object. It's being used like the separable element of a
> German separable verb (e.g., <mitkommen>). The Scandinavian
> languages don't formally have separable verbs, but they do
> tend to turn prepositions into adverbs by omitting the
> object, and the effect is much like that of a German
> separable verb.
Actually, Swedish has separable verbs, or something very similar to it. I
don't know German, so I can't tell you the exact difference, but some
verbs have (stressed) particles that can be placed before or after the
verb depending on morfological form. For example 'thrust': 'sticka in',
past participle: 'instucken'.
There are also expressions that look identical in writing, but mean
different things depending on whether they contain a preposition or a verb
particle.
'Jag kommer med honom'
Meaning #1: 'I will bring him', 'I will have him with me'. In this case,
'med' (with) is a preposition, and 'honom' (him) is its object.
Meaning #2: 'I will go with him', 'I will follow him'. In this case, 'med'
is a particle with no menaing of its own, while 'honom' is the object of
the verb. It's this variant that can drop the object ('Jag kommer med').
In speaking, they are distinguished by stress. In writing -- well, there
is always context.
Karin
--
To reach me, replace everything before the "at" with amneris