Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Worst writing advice you ever got.
44 views
Skip to first unread message
J.Pascal
Dec 30, 2012, 5:53:33 PM12/30/12
to
What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
I was remembering a discussion on misc.writing ages ago about how anything that didn't advance the plot should be removed. In a sense, I suppose that's true. But in another sense it's crippling. Someone who is "new" might not realize that "advance the plot" can mean something like "provide a pause in the action" and end up with something resembling an outline once everything not advancing the plot is removed.
I think Patricia used to say everything should serve three purposes, if at all possible while leaving room that something might not touch on three but you might have to have it anyway. And she was also clear that "provide a pause in the action" is a purpose, "reveal character" is a purpose, "set mood" is a purpose, "give the reader a visual tag" is a purpose, "manage dialog" is a purpose... etc.
I didn't get too tripped up by that misc.writing conversation because I knew it was wrong even if I didn't know why or how to explain why it was wrong.
What I wished someone had done was describe different purposes and uses of the details an author might insert between the plot outline points. It would have been more useful, instead of insisting that your protagonist wandering down a pathway should be removed if it didn't advance the plot, to talk about ways to use it to advance the plot.
So what are some examples of bad advice that you've come across and how did you resolve it, if you got caught in it, or even if you saw it was wrong for you from the start?
-Julie
I was remembering a discussion on misc.writing ages ago about how anything that didn't advance the plot should be removed. In a sense, I suppose that's true. But in another sense it's crippling. Someone who is "new" might not realize that "advance the plot" can mean something like "provide a pause in the action" and end up with something resembling an outline once everything not advancing the plot is removed.
I think Patricia used to say everything should serve three purposes, if at all possible while leaving room that something might not touch on three but you might have to have it anyway. And she was also clear that "provide a pause in the action" is a purpose, "reveal character" is a purpose, "set mood" is a purpose, "give the reader a visual tag" is a purpose, "manage dialog" is a purpose... etc.
I didn't get too tripped up by that misc.writing conversation because I knew it was wrong even if I didn't know why or how to explain why it was wrong.
What I wished someone had done was describe different purposes and uses of the details an author might insert between the plot outline points. It would have been more useful, instead of insisting that your protagonist wandering down a pathway should be removed if it didn't advance the plot, to talk about ways to use it to advance the plot.
So what are some examples of bad advice that you've come across and how did you resolve it, if you got caught in it, or even if you saw it was wrong for you from the start?
-Julie
Dorothy J Heydt
Dec 30, 2012, 6:33:14 PM12/30/12
to
In article <4fcf152d-acec-44ee...@googlegroups.com>,
The worst I ever saw was not given to me personally; it appeared
in a book by two people (whose names I have mercifully forgotten)
on how to write a novel.
It said, I'm quoting pretty much verbatim, that every novel
should have a Purpose, and that the statement of that Purpose
must contain the words "to prove."
E.g., the Purpose of _To Kill a Mockingbird_ is To Prove that
racial bigotry is degrading, and the Purpose of _From Here to
Eternity_ is To Prove that a peacetime army will become
degenerate.
And I daresay there is a subset of the novel that does require a
Purpose that Proves something; but I don't want to write it.
I think I mentioned that book on one of these groups several
years ago, and people chimed in with "The Purpose of my novel is
to make money." And Tolkien's Purpose, as he says in the
Foreword to _The Lord of the Rings,_ was to tell a story.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
in a book by two people (whose names I have mercifully forgotten)
on how to write a novel.
It said, I'm quoting pretty much verbatim, that every novel
should have a Purpose, and that the statement of that Purpose
must contain the words "to prove."
E.g., the Purpose of _To Kill a Mockingbird_ is To Prove that
racial bigotry is degrading, and the Purpose of _From Here to
Eternity_ is To Prove that a peacetime army will become
degenerate.
And I daresay there is a subset of the novel that does require a
Purpose that Proves something; but I don't want to write it.
I think I mentioned that book on one of these groups several
years ago, and people chimed in with "The Purpose of my novel is
to make money." And Tolkien's Purpose, as he says in the
Foreword to _The Lord of the Rings,_ was to tell a story.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Jymesion
Dec 31, 2012, 6:38:54 AM12/31/12
to
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:53:33 -0800 (PST), "J.Pascal"
<ju...@pascal.org> wrote:
>What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
The only way to write is to create an outline and write a first,
<ju...@pascal.org> wrote:
>What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
second, and then final draft.
I had never written that way, having found an edit-as-I-go approach
fit my temperament and style.
But it was a school assignment, so I had to do a short story using
that method.
The result was so horrible the teacher took pity on me and let me do
it over.
Out of sheer exasperation, I wrote a new story, then created an
outline from it and did two 'earlier' drafts with various mistakes. (I
got an A.)
Two of my weaknesses as a writer are that I can't fit words into
predefined spaces and I write only for myself.
The first means following an outline is the same as writing
non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
where they will.
The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
David Friedman
Dec 31, 2012, 8:59:55 AM12/31/12
to
In article <b9t2e8d8ig8aj2lfq...@4ax.com>,
remember ever doing it from an outline, unless you count books that
started as my lecture notes for a course I had taught multiple times.
> The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
> the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
The way I like to put it is "no plot survives contact with the
characters."
But I'm sure that rule, like most others, doesn't apply to all writers.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_
Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> The first means following an outline is the same as writing
> non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
> where they will.
I've written a good deal more non-fiction than fiction but I can't
> The first means following an outline is the same as writing
> non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
> where they will.
remember ever doing it from an outline, unless you count books that
started as my lecture notes for a course I had taught multiple times.
> The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
> the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
characters."
But I'm sure that rule, like most others, doesn't apply to all writers.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_
Dirk van den Boom
Dec 31, 2012, 9:43:47 AM12/31/12
to
Am 30.12.2012 23:53, schrieb J.Pascal:
> What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
"Write one after the other!"
> What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
Doesn't work for me. If I don't write three novels at the same time, I
get bored and start to procrastinate.
But the spice has to flow.
--
www.sf-boom-blog.de
Dorothy J Heydt
Dec 31, 2012, 10:55:53 AM12/31/12
to
>On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:53:33 -0800 (PST), "J.Pascal"
><ju...@pascal.org> wrote:
>
>>What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
>
>The only way to write is to create an outline and write a first,
>second, and then final draft.
>
>I had never written that way, having found an edit-as-I-go approach
>fit my temperament and style.
>
>But it was a school assignment, so I had to do a short story using
>that method.
>
>The result was so horrible the teacher took pity on me and let me do
>it over.
>
>Out of sheer exasperation, I wrote a new story, then created an
>outline from it and did two 'earlier' drafts with various mistakes. (I
>got an A.)
That's what you have to do sometimes, with narrow-minded
><ju...@pascal.org> wrote:
>
>>What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
>
>The only way to write is to create an outline and write a first,
>second, and then final draft.
>
>I had never written that way, having found an edit-as-I-go approach
>fit my temperament and style.
>
>But it was a school assignment, so I had to do a short story using
>that method.
>
>The result was so horrible the teacher took pity on me and let me do
>it over.
>
>Out of sheer exasperation, I wrote a new story, then created an
>outline from it and did two 'earlier' drafts with various mistakes. (I
>got an A.)
teachers.
>
>Two of my weaknesses as a writer are that I can't fit words into
>predefined spaces and I write only for myself.
>
>The first means following an outline is the same as writing
>non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
>where they will.
>
>The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
>the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
To each his own.
>Two of my weaknesses as a writer are that I can't fit words into
>predefined spaces and I write only for myself.
>
>The first means following an outline is the same as writing
>non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
>where they will.
>
>The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
>the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
My current outline for a novel that may or may not ever get
finished consists of a sheet of paper with little pink Post-Its
stuck onto it here and there, each containing as many as a dozen
words indicating what I *think* might be supposed to be happening
in that chapter. It gets changed a lot.
As for knowing the end of the story, several times that's been
*all* I know. Charles Addams once did a cartoon showing a large
boa constrictor, being held at its head, at its tail, and all
along its length by a number of zoo-keepers, so that it can have
its picture taken. The head zoo-keeper is standing by, consoling
one of his staff: "There, there, Hawkins; with normal growth,
you'll be in there next year."
I tend to start out with the head and the tail and little or no
idea of how much snake there is in between or what it looks like,
and my first drafts look like fat outlines. I go over and over
them, changing a word here, adding a paragraph or maybe a whole
sub-plot there. Sometimes I actually finish the process.
Jacey Bedford
Dec 31, 2012, 8:52:33 PM12/31/12
to
In message <4fcf152d-acec-44ee...@googlegroups.com>,
J.Pascal <ju...@pascal.org> writes
In one way the advice is also the best advice, but should be mitigated
by pointing out that if you are a librarian from Pudsey you don't have
to restrict your writing to stories about librarians from Pudsey. You
actually know a lot more than you think you know because all your skills
and experiences are transferable to parallel situations.
You can also write what you have researched.
When we write about magic and space travel we'd be very boring if we
wrote only about things we had experienced personally.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
J.Pascal <ju...@pascal.org> writes
>What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
Write what you know.
In one way the advice is also the best advice, but should be mitigated
by pointing out that if you are a librarian from Pudsey you don't have
to restrict your writing to stories about librarians from Pudsey. You
actually know a lot more than you think you know because all your skills
and experiences are transferable to parallel situations.
You can also write what you have researched.
When we write about magic and space travel we'd be very boring if we
wrote only about things we had experienced personally.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
JF
Jan 1, 2013, 2:23:58 AM1/1/13
to
On 01/01/2013 01:52, Jacey Bedford wrote:
>> What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
>
>
> Write what you know.
>
> When we write about magic [] we'd be very boring if
>> What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
>
>
> Write what you know.
>
> we wrote only about things we had experienced personally.
Have I told you about the woman in the cave, the moon on my face
and the voice in my head? And the Dama de Baza in the museum, the
wild coincidences of life? Not magic exactly, but these things
will do until something better comes along.
JF
Jymesion
Jan 1, 2013, 11:06:40 AM1/1/13
to
On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 01:52:33 +0000, Jacey Bedford
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Write what you know.
I'm not sure what I know.
When I was coming out of anesthesia after my first heart surgery, I
was in a large cave and watched a dragon bring a newly-killed cow to
her nest.
She grabbed its head in her beak, holding it up so it swung freely,
and slit its belly open with one flick of her claw. While her babies
sucked up the entrails, she pecked off chunks of meat, chewed them a
little and then dropped them into her babies' mouths.
Before they were done, she had to swat two of them with her wing to
break up a fight over the liver.
When they'd licked the floor of the cave clean and wouldn't take any
more meat, she bit off one haunch, chewed it a long time (I could hear
the bones shattering), swallowed it, and did the same with the other
haunch. When she was done, she took away the carcass.
So I know how a mother dragon feeds her young.
Or do I?
I surely can't write about recovery room nurses because they were only
a surreal dream.
<look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Write what you know.
I'm not sure what I know.
When I was coming out of anesthesia after my first heart surgery, I
was in a large cave and watched a dragon bring a newly-killed cow to
her nest.
She grabbed its head in her beak, holding it up so it swung freely,
and slit its belly open with one flick of her claw. While her babies
sucked up the entrails, she pecked off chunks of meat, chewed them a
little and then dropped them into her babies' mouths.
Before they were done, she had to swat two of them with her wing to
break up a fight over the liver.
When they'd licked the floor of the cave clean and wouldn't take any
more meat, she bit off one haunch, chewed it a long time (I could hear
the bones shattering), swallowed it, and did the same with the other
haunch. When she was done, she took away the carcass.
So I know how a mother dragon feeds her young.
Or do I?
I surely can't write about recovery room nurses because they were only
a surreal dream.
Jymesion
Jan 1, 2013, 11:06:40 AM1/1/13
to
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:55:53 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
>As for knowing the end of the story, several times that's been
>*all* I know.
I might have a vague idea (not all the good guys die), but anything
Heydt) wrote:
>As for knowing the end of the story, several times that's been
>*all* I know.
beyond that has to be really up in the air.
When my conscious mind writes, it's comes out like an instruction
manual (like one of those written in Chinese, translated into Dutch,
translated into Swedish, then translated into English, and the
diagrams got lost somewhere along the way).
My subconscious mind, when the words just flow, is a reasonably
passable writer, but it can't be counted on to wind up in any
particular place.
Jymesion
Jan 1, 2013, 11:06:40 AM1/1/13
to
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:59:55 -0500, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <b9t2e8d8ig8aj2lfq...@4ax.com>,
> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
>
>> The first means following an outline is the same as writing
>> non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
>> where they will.
>
>I've written a good deal more non-fiction than fiction but I can't
>remember ever doing it from an outline, unless you count books that
>started as my lecture notes for a course I had taught multiple times.
I don't mean it has to be a conscious outline, but you have an idea of
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <b9t2e8d8ig8aj2lfq...@4ax.com>,
> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
>
>> The first means following an outline is the same as writing
>> non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
>> where they will.
>
>I've written a good deal more non-fiction than fiction but I can't
>remember ever doing it from an outline, unless you count books that
>started as my lecture notes for a course I had taught multiple times.
what information you'll present and what logically follows what.
>> The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
>> the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
>
>The way I like to put it is "no plot survives contact with the
>characters."
time I was exposed to it. I hope you're at least a little flattered --
I only steal from the best! :)
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 1, 2013, 12:09:22 PM1/1/13
to
In article <kjv5e8h37imueebg5...@4ax.com>,
Wow.
The only thing I've ever dreamed while coming out of anesthesia
was that I was reading a comic book. I don't even remember which
comic book.
The only thing I've ever dreamed while coming out of anesthesia
was that I was reading a comic book. I don't even remember which
comic book.
Jacey Bedford
Jan 1, 2013, 12:47:36 PM1/1/13
to
In message <V7-dnQO3DtuGEn_N...@brightview.co.uk>, JF
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
That sounds fascinating. The trouble is that _some_ of the things that
happen in real life would be unbelievable as fiction.
Like me finding a long lost relative running a clothing stall at the
Lowther Driving Trials near Penrith (three counties away from where
either of us lived), or my friend taking a plane to Dubai and finding
himself sitting next to the man who used to own the house he currently
lived in - but two owners ago. The odds on the coincidence happening are
long enough, but the odds on actually discovering it must be infinitely
longer.
Jacey
(Which leads one to wonder how many undiscovered coincidences pass us
by.)
--
Jacey Bedford
<jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> writes
happen in real life would be unbelievable as fiction.
Like me finding a long lost relative running a clothing stall at the
Lowther Driving Trials near Penrith (three counties away from where
either of us lived), or my friend taking a plane to Dubai and finding
himself sitting next to the man who used to own the house he currently
lived in - but two owners ago. The odds on the coincidence happening are
long enough, but the odds on actually discovering it must be infinitely
longer.
Jacey
(Which leads one to wonder how many undiscovered coincidences pass us
by.)
--
Jacey Bedford
David Friedman
Jan 1, 2013, 12:49:54 PM1/1/13
to
In article <bqu5e89c3guh8i363...@4ax.com>,
When I wrote my first textbook (Price Theory) I learned a lot in writing
it. If someone had asked me how long it would take me to explain the
basics of economics to an intelligent and interested listener, I would
have guess perhaps a couple of hours. If someone had asked how long it
would take in print, I suppose I would have guessed something between
ten and a hundred pages. The book ended up a lot longer than that.
And the reason was that I was conscious of only the top level of the
argument. In writing the book, I had to think down to why that level was
true, what the logic was underlying it. Occasionally I discovered that
what I thought was true wasn't, or wasn't as solid as I thought. More
often it was possible to work out the foundations--but I hadn't seen in
advance that they were necessary, which is why I badly underestimated
how much had to go into the book.
So in that case I really didn't know all of what I was going to write--I
had to figure out a good deal of it in the process of writing. My later
textbooks--intended to do double duty as books for the intelligent
layman who wants to learn the subject outside of class--were based on
courses I had taught many times, so had much less of that problem.
> >> The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
> >> the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
> >
> >The way I like to put it is "no plot survives contact with the
> >characters."
>
> I love that line -- I put it into my 'stolen lines' file the first
> time I was exposed to it. I hope you're at least a little flattered --
> I only steal from the best! :)
Thank you--I am.
Which is relevant to one my other best lines: "When you are young, you
are afraid other people will steal your ideas. When you are old, you are
afraid they won't."
Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:59:55 -0500, David Friedman
> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <b9t2e8d8ig8aj2lfq...@4ax.com>,
> > Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The first means following an outline is the same as writing
> >> non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
> >> where they will.
> >
> >I've written a good deal more non-fiction than fiction but I can't
> >remember ever doing it from an outline, unless you count books that
> >started as my lecture notes for a course I had taught multiple times.
>
> I don't mean it has to be a conscious outline, but you have an idea of
> what information you'll present and what logically follows what.
Sometimes.
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:59:55 -0500, David Friedman
> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <b9t2e8d8ig8aj2lfq...@4ax.com>,
> > Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The first means following an outline is the same as writing
> >> non-fiction, and I'm simply terrible if I can't let the words wander
> >> where they will.
> >
> >I've written a good deal more non-fiction than fiction but I can't
> >remember ever doing it from an outline, unless you count books that
> >started as my lecture notes for a course I had taught multiple times.
>
> I don't mean it has to be a conscious outline, but you have an idea of
> what information you'll present and what logically follows what.
When I wrote my first textbook (Price Theory) I learned a lot in writing
it. If someone had asked me how long it would take me to explain the
basics of economics to an intelligent and interested listener, I would
have guess perhaps a couple of hours. If someone had asked how long it
would take in print, I suppose I would have guessed something between
ten and a hundred pages. The book ended up a lot longer than that.
And the reason was that I was conscious of only the top level of the
argument. In writing the book, I had to think down to why that level was
true, what the logic was underlying it. Occasionally I discovered that
what I thought was true wasn't, or wasn't as solid as I thought. More
often it was possible to work out the foundations--but I hadn't seen in
advance that they were necessary, which is why I badly underestimated
how much had to go into the book.
So in that case I really didn't know all of what I was going to write--I
had to figure out a good deal of it in the process of writing. My later
textbooks--intended to do double duty as books for the intelligent
layman who wants to learn the subject outside of class--were based on
courses I had taught many times, so had much less of that problem.
> >> The second means that if I have an outline, I already know the end of
> >> the story, so why should I bother writing it out?
> >
> >The way I like to put it is "no plot survives contact with the
> >characters."
>
> I love that line -- I put it into my 'stolen lines' file the first
> time I was exposed to it. I hope you're at least a little flattered --
> I only steal from the best! :)
Which is relevant to one my other best lines: "When you are young, you
are afraid other people will steal your ideas. When you are old, you are
afraid they won't."
David Friedman
Jan 1, 2013, 12:53:14 PM1/1/13
to
In article <h2v5e8hh5kjfo4hlq...@4ax.com>,
For the novel I'm currently writing, the problem is that I know what end
I want, pretty much, but am having trouble figuring out how to make
getting to that end exciting and interesting--since it's one where
almost none of the good guys die, and the bad guys plots ultimately
fail, and ... . I came up with an idea quite recently which would add a
new element, should make it more interesting, might make it possible to
make it look as though the bad guys are going to win until the last
minute.
Maybe.
I want, pretty much, but am having trouble figuring out how to make
getting to that end exciting and interesting--since it's one where
almost none of the good guys die, and the bad guys plots ultimately
fail, and ... . I came up with an idea quite recently which would add a
new element, should make it more interesting, might make it possible to
make it look as though the bad guys are going to win until the last
minute.
Maybe.
Bill Swears
Jan 1, 2013, 7:31:02 PM1/1/13
to
On Sunday, December 30, 2012 1:53:33 PM UTC-9, J.Pascal wrote:
> What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
>
> -Julie
> What was the worst writing advice you ever ran into?
>
That I could write pretty well and that I should consider becoming a writer. This was clearly intended to cause trouble in my life.
Bill
Charlton Wilbur
Jan 2, 2013, 2:41:21 PM1/2/13
to
>>>>> "DJH" == Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> writes:
DJH> In article <b9t2e8d8ig8aj2lfq...@4ax.com>,
DJH> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
(as an example of terrible writing advice)
>> The only way to write is to create an outline and write a first,
>> second, and then final draft.
DJH> teachers.
One of the best (music) composition teachers I ever had would look at my
work and say, "I think you need to try *this* approach." And so for the
next meeting I would need to produce a page or two of music using that
specific approach, on top of whatever other work I need to do.
A writing analogy might be, say, "I want you to write a sonnet a day
each week based on the top, leftmost headline of the New York Times."
Or "I want you to write a short story of between 1800 and 2000 words
based on an outline that you email to me tomorrow."
His idea was not that writing a sonnet a day (writing an atonal fugue
exposition, with the subject being the opening of the theme song of the
prime time show at 8 pm on NBC, based on imitation at the major third)
or that writing a story to precise specifications (setting a Dickinson
poem using a hexatonic collection determined by rolling dice) was the
One True Way to compose, but that his role as a teacher was to make me
aware of the possibilities, which meant forcing me out of my comfort
zone.
In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
*because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwi...@chromatico.net
DJH> In article <b9t2e8d8ig8aj2lfq...@4ax.com>,
DJH> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
(as an example of terrible writing advice)
>> The only way to write is to create an outline and write a first,
>> second, and then final draft.
>> Out of sheer exasperation, I wrote a new story, then created an
>> outline from it and did two 'earlier' drafts with various
>> mistakes. (I got an A.)
DJH> That's what you have to do sometimes, with narrow-minded
>> outline from it and did two 'earlier' drafts with various
>> mistakes. (I got an A.)
DJH> teachers.
One of the best (music) composition teachers I ever had would look at my
work and say, "I think you need to try *this* approach." And so for the
next meeting I would need to produce a page or two of music using that
specific approach, on top of whatever other work I need to do.
A writing analogy might be, say, "I want you to write a sonnet a day
each week based on the top, leftmost headline of the New York Times."
Or "I want you to write a short story of between 1800 and 2000 words
based on an outline that you email to me tomorrow."
His idea was not that writing a sonnet a day (writing an atonal fugue
exposition, with the subject being the opening of the theme song of the
prime time show at 8 pm on NBC, based on imitation at the major third)
or that writing a story to precise specifications (setting a Dickinson
poem using a hexatonic collection determined by rolling dice) was the
One True Way to compose, but that his role as a teacher was to make me
aware of the possibilities, which meant forcing me out of my comfort
zone.
In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
*because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwi...@chromatico.net
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 2, 2013, 3:35:12 PM1/2/13
to
On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
> In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
> *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
> not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
> you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care? I'm not writing for some
> In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
> *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
> not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
> you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
weird idea of self-improvement or whatever, I'm just writing stories.
For fun. That kind of approach would turn me off almost instantly. I
want to learn things that make my stuff MORE my stuff, so to speak.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 2, 2013, 4:05:49 PM1/2/13
to
In article <kc25m0$jmf$1...@dont-email.me>,
envelope, but you don't need to.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>
>> In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
>> *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
>> not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
>> you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
>
> But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care? I'm not writing for some
>weird idea of self-improvement or whatever, I'm just writing stories.
>For fun. That kind of approach would turn me off almost instantly. I
>want to learn things that make my stuff MORE my stuff, so to speak.
>
And ... your stuff is selling. You could work on pushing your
>On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>
>> In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
>> *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
>> not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
>> you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
>
> But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care? I'm not writing for some
>weird idea of self-improvement or whatever, I'm just writing stories.
>For fun. That kind of approach would turn me off almost instantly. I
>want to learn things that make my stuff MORE my stuff, so to speak.
>
envelope, but you don't need to.
Charlton Wilbur
Jan 2, 2013, 4:41:15 PM1/2/13
to
>>>>> "SW" == Sea Wasp (Ryk E Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
SW> On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>> In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and
>> outline *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count
>> and outline: not because either is the One True Way, but because
>> if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always
>> gotten.
SW> But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care?
How do you know you won't get something *better*? How do you know that
trying another approach, even if it's not one you eventually adopt,
won't give you more insight into how you work in a way that gets you
more of what you want, easier?
SW> On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>> In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and
>> outline *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count
>> and outline: not because either is the One True Way, but because
>> if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always
>> gotten.
How do you know you won't get something *better*? How do you know that
trying another approach, even if it's not one you eventually adopt,
won't give you more insight into how you work in a way that gets you
more of what you want, easier?
Brian M. Scott
Jan 2, 2013, 8:32:43 PM1/2/13
to
On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:41:15 -0500, Charlton Wilbur
<cwi...@chromatico.net> wrote in
<news:87d2xn1...@new.chromatico.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it: you *might* break it.
2. Why put in that kind of unpleasant effort on sheer
speculation?
Brian
<cwi...@chromatico.net> wrote in
<news:87d2xn1...@new.chromatico.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
2. Why put in that kind of unpleasant effort on sheer
speculation?
Brian
David Friedman
Jan 2, 2013, 11:52:55 PM1/2/13
to
In article <kc25m0$jmf$1...@dont-email.me>,
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>
> > In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
> > *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
> > not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
> > you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
>
> But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care? I'm not writing for some
> weird idea of self-improvement or whatever, I'm just writing stories.
> For fun. That kind of approach would turn me off almost instantly. I
> want to learn things that make my stuff MORE my stuff, so to speak.
The idea presumably is that you might discover that something you had
>
> > In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
> > *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
> > not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
> > you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
>
> But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care? I'm not writing for some
> weird idea of self-improvement or whatever, I'm just writing stories.
> For fun. That kind of approach would turn me off almost instantly. I
> want to learn things that make my stuff MORE my stuff, so to speak.
never tried worked for you--and trying it once is a fairly low cost
experiment.
The closest I think I've come to that sort of thing involved writing
poetry under interesting constraints. Sometimes that meant being given a
set of end words and writing a poem with them. Sometimes translating
something, and trying to maintain features of the rhyme scheme that
served an important function. That can be challenging and I think
sometimes educational.
And, of course, writing to any of the traditional forms is a milder
challenge of the same sort.
David Friedman
Jan 2, 2013, 11:54:13 PM1/2/13
to
In article <mxkmn1pcfzex.1t...@40tude.net>,
Hard to see how trying an approach you haven't tried before would stop
you from going back to the approach you kinow.
> 2. Why put in that kind of unpleasant effort on sheer
> speculation?
Because trying something different once isn't a large amount of
effort--and if it turns out to work for you, the payoff could be large.
> Brian
you from going back to the approach you kinow.
> 2. Why put in that kind of unpleasant effort on sheer
> speculation?
effort--and if it turns out to work for you, the payoff could be large.
> Brian
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 3, 2013, 7:01:38 AM1/3/13
to
your first draft, then rewrite the whole thing". No, see, if I wanted it
written differently, I wouldn't have written it the way I DID write it.
Now, if someone's willing to PAY me, that's different. Which is why I
did the hard-SF Boundary series with Eric Flint. Normally I wouldn't do
Hard-SF at all; not my style or preference.
Nicky
Jan 3, 2013, 7:36:51 AM1/3/13
to
On Jan 3, 12:01 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
It very much depends on context. If people are on a course to learn
something then it is part of the teacher's job to push them to try
things they wouldn't have tried on their own or what is the point? You
are not on a course and are not asking for help - that changes
everything. As I now teach creative writing for money I find I have to
adapt my approach to the student.
something then it is part of the teacher's job to push them to try
things they wouldn't have tried on their own or what is the point? You
are not on a course and are not asking for help - that changes
everything. As I now teach creative writing for money I find I have to
adapt my approach to the student.
J.Pascal
Jan 3, 2013, 11:47:49 AM1/3/13
to
On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 1:35:12 PM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>
>
>
> > In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
>
> > *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
>
> > not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
>
> > you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
>
>
>
> But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care? I'm not writing for some
>
> weird idea of self-improvement or whatever, I'm just writing stories.
>
> For fun. That kind of approach would turn me off almost instantly. I
>
> want to learn things that make my stuff MORE my stuff, so to speak.
>
>
I think that if what you're doing is working and it does what it's supposed to do that this is true. Also, I think that there is a difference between being told "this is the right way" and being told "do this a few times even if it never works for you." Particularly if you're in a class, it is about self improvement.
> On 1/2/13 2:41 PM, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>
>
>
> > In other words, sometimes you need to write to a word count and outline
>
> > *because* you're not comfortable writing to a word count and outline:
>
> > not because either is the One True Way, but because if you do what
>
> > you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
>
>
>
> But if I'm getting what I *want*, do I care? I'm not writing for some
>
> weird idea of self-improvement or whatever, I'm just writing stories.
>
> For fun. That kind of approach would turn me off almost instantly. I
>
> want to learn things that make my stuff MORE my stuff, so to speak.
>
>
I'm taking English courses, and I've seen some stinky writing. I don't suppose it makes any difference if a person ordered their thoughts before (in an outline) or after (when editing) but I think even a hard core pantser is going to need to go through that process of editing. Even on the paragraph level. And having gone through the process of "doing it the way the teacher says" very likely will help refine your own process or at least understand what doesn't work.
But that's all in a "learning" environment. It would be stupid to do when you're in a 'production' environment.
-Julie
Charlton Wilbur
Jan 3, 2013, 3:26:21 PM1/3/13
to
>>>>> "SW" == Sea Wasp (Ryk E Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>> How do you know you won't get something *better*? How do you
>> know that trying another approach, even if it's not one you
>> eventually adopt, won't give you more insight into how you work
>> in a way that gets you more of what you want, easier?
SW> Because that makes little sense to me. It's like the people
>> How do you know you won't get something *better*? How do you
>> know that trying another approach, even if it's not one you
>> eventually adopt, won't give you more insight into how you work
>> in a way that gets you more of what you want, easier?
SW> saying "Do your first draft, then rewrite the whole thing". No,
SW> see, if I wanted it written differently, I wouldn't have written
SW> it the way I DID write it.
Whereas it seems absurd to me to assume that the way I have found to do
things is the one best way, even in a context where there are many best
ways. There *are* people who work best by writing the entire first
draft, then rewriting the whole thing. There *are* people who work
better by writing a few pages, then going over those pages the next day
to review and never revising them again. There *are* people whose first
draft is the final draft.
How do I know which one of those works for me, if I'm not willing to try
them? In some cases it's obvious, but in many more it's not so cut and
dried.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 3, 2013, 4:17:48 PM1/3/13
to
cut-and-dried. I can tell what works and what doesn't for me, even if it
doesn't work at all for anyone else.
My way certainly isn't the BEST way. However, it IS the ONLY way, so to
speak. For instance, I'd love it if I could actually review my work and
see flaws in it and fix it. But I can't, unless I stuff it in a
(virtual) drawer and don't look at it for five years. So clearly it
would be BETTER if I could do revisions on my stuff, but I can't. Unless
someone points them out to me. That's the great function of editors --
they show me what needs to be changed.
Jymesion
Jan 6, 2013, 10:19:50 AM1/6/13
to
On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 17:09:22 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:
was so rich and detailed that it's as real to me as the last time I
went to Toldeo (which was truly horrifying). My mind states
unequivocally that it was a dream/hallucination, but part of me
rejects that as the skepticism of an unbeliever. :)
I find it particularly odd since the dragon wasn't what I think of
when I picture a dragon. It was more of a pterodactyl/Chinese
dragon/turkey hybrid. I don't remember seeing a picture or a
description of one like that before then, and I know I haven't run
across one since.
It's also odd that, according to what I could later gather from the
nurses, it continued for at least two hours. Most of my dreams are of
the "fall asleep, live through half a day of strangeness, wake up to
find it's only five minutes later" variety.
Anasthesia always has that effect on me. I had my tonsils out at a
time when IVs were put into the crook of your arm and your arms were
taped to boards if you had a habit of thrashing around in your sleep
(which I always did when I had needles jabbed into me). When I was
waking up, I had a big red button in the center of my chest. If I
pushed it, all the pain would go away. But with my arms as they were,
I could only bat at it, couldn't get the proper constant downward
pressure. The nurses ended up tying my wrists to the bed frame with
leather straps.
wrote:
>In article <kjv5e8h37imueebg5...@4ax.com>,
>Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
>>When I was coming out of anesthesia after my first heart surgery, I
>>was in a large cave and watched a dragon bring a newly-killed cow to
>>her nest.
>Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
>>When I was coming out of anesthesia after my first heart surgery, I
>>was in a large cave and watched a dragon bring a newly-killed cow to
>>her nest.
>>So I know how a mother dragon feeds her young.
>>Or do I?
>>Or do I?
>The only thing I've ever dreamed while coming out of anesthesia
>was that I was reading a comic book.
I have a hard time categorizing it as a dream. The sensory experience
>was that I was reading a comic book.
was so rich and detailed that it's as real to me as the last time I
went to Toldeo (which was truly horrifying). My mind states
unequivocally that it was a dream/hallucination, but part of me
rejects that as the skepticism of an unbeliever. :)
I find it particularly odd since the dragon wasn't what I think of
when I picture a dragon. It was more of a pterodactyl/Chinese
dragon/turkey hybrid. I don't remember seeing a picture or a
description of one like that before then, and I know I haven't run
across one since.
It's also odd that, according to what I could later gather from the
nurses, it continued for at least two hours. Most of my dreams are of
the "fall asleep, live through half a day of strangeness, wake up to
find it's only five minutes later" variety.
Anasthesia always has that effect on me. I had my tonsils out at a
time when IVs were put into the crook of your arm and your arms were
taped to boards if you had a habit of thrashing around in your sleep
(which I always did when I had needles jabbed into me). When I was
waking up, I had a big red button in the center of my chest. If I
pushed it, all the pain would go away. But with my arms as they were,
I could only bat at it, couldn't get the proper constant downward
pressure. The nurses ended up tying my wrists to the bed frame with
leather straps.
Jymesion
Jan 6, 2013, 10:19:50 AM1/6/13
to
On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:53:14 -0500, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> I came up with an idea quite recently which would add a
>new element, should make it more interesting, might make it possible to
>make it look as though the bad guys are going to win until the last
>minute.
>
>Maybe.
I have a novella (at least I think I still have it -- it's probably on
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> I came up with an idea quite recently which would add a
>new element, should make it more interesting, might make it possible to
>make it look as though the bad guys are going to win until the last
>minute.
>
>Maybe.
a back-up disk somewhere) in which the bad guy wins. I think it's
rather good so I tried off-and-on for years to rewrite the ending so
it'd be marketable, but nothing else really makes sense for those
characters in that situation.
Oh, well. At least it laid to rest a character I didn't particularly
like who'd been nagging me for years to write down her stories.
Haven't heard from her since she was beheaded.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 6, 2013, 12:21:30 PM1/6/13
to
In article <265je89itnjuhtcf3...@4ax.com>,
Sounds logical.
OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after
he was drowned.
OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after
he was drowned.
David Friedman
Jan 6, 2013, 12:34:13 PM1/6/13
to
> I have a novella (at least I think I still have it -- it's probably on
> a back-up disk somewhere) in which the bad guy wins. I think it's
> rather good so I tried off-and-on for years to rewrite the ending so
> it'd be marketable, but nothing else really makes sense for those
> characters in that situation.
I would describe the Draka books as books where the bad guys win, and
> a back-up disk somewhere) in which the bad guy wins. I think it's
> rather good so I tried off-and-on for years to rewrite the ending so
> it'd be marketable, but nothing else really makes sense for those
> characters in that situation.
they were certainly marketable.
David Friedman
Jan 6, 2013, 2:31:15 PM1/6/13
to
In article <MG7s7...@kithrup.com>,
is the death of the first novel's antagonist. He dies heroically, doing
his duty to his last breath--nailing down the succession while dying of
a heart attack.
"The body is servant, not master."
> In article <265je89itnjuhtcf3...@4ax.com>,
> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:53:14 -0500, David Friedman
> ><dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I came up with an idea quite recently which would add a
> >>new element, should make it more interesting, might make it possible to
> >>make it look as though the bad guys are going to win until the last
> >>minute.
> >>
> >>Maybe.
> >
> >I have a novella (at least I think I still have it -- it's probably on
> >a back-up disk somewhere) in which the bad guy wins. I think it's
> >rather good so I tried off-and-on for years to rewrite the ending so
> >it'd be marketable, but nothing else really makes sense for those
> >characters in that situation.
> >
> >Oh, well. At least it laid to rest a character I didn't particularly
> >like who'd been nagging me for years to write down her stories.
> >Haven't heard from her since she was beheaded.
>
> Sounds logical.
>
> OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after
> he was drowned.
One of my favorite scenes in the partly written sequel to my first novel
> Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:53:14 -0500, David Friedman
> ><dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I came up with an idea quite recently which would add a
> >>new element, should make it more interesting, might make it possible to
> >>make it look as though the bad guys are going to win until the last
> >>minute.
> >>
> >>Maybe.
> >
> >I have a novella (at least I think I still have it -- it's probably on
> >a back-up disk somewhere) in which the bad guy wins. I think it's
> >rather good so I tried off-and-on for years to rewrite the ending so
> >it'd be marketable, but nothing else really makes sense for those
> >characters in that situation.
> >
> >Oh, well. At least it laid to rest a character I didn't particularly
> >like who'd been nagging me for years to write down her stories.
> >Haven't heard from her since she was beheaded.
>
> Sounds logical.
>
> OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after
> he was drowned.
is the death of the first novel's antagonist. He dies heroically, doing
his duty to his last breath--nailing down the succession while dying of
a heart attack.
"The body is servant, not master."
Jymesion
Jan 7, 2013, 2:46:03 AM1/7/13
to
On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 17:21:30 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:
>OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after
>he was drowned.
There's a song about a drowned assassin and his experience with being
at the bottom of a river. I've only heard it in French, but it's an
interesting little ditty.
wrote:
>OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after
>he was drowned.
at the bottom of a river. I've only heard it in French, but it's an
interesting little ditty.
John F. Eldredge
Jan 8, 2013, 5:31:35 AM1/8/13
to
Tempest_ immediately popped into my mind. "Full fathom five thy father
lies...".
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 8, 2013, 9:56:29 AM1/8/13
to
In article <al2as7...@mid.individual.net>,
another part of the island. Isn't he?
John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 01:46:03 -0600, Jymesion wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 17:21:30 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after he was
>>>drowned.
>>
>> There's a song about a drowned assassin and his experience with being at
>> the bottom of a river. I've only heard it in French, but it's an
>> interesting little ditty.
>
>While I know this isn't what you are referring to, Ariel's song from _The
>Tempest_ immediately popped into my mind. "Full fathom five thy father
>lies...".
And, IIRC, it isn't true; he's still alive but shipwrecked on
>On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 01:46:03 -0600, Jymesion wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 17:21:30 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after he was
>>>drowned.
>>
>> There's a song about a drowned assassin and his experience with being at
>> the bottom of a river. I've only heard it in French, but it's an
>> interesting little ditty.
>
>While I know this isn't what you are referring to, Ariel's song from _The
>Tempest_ immediately popped into my mind. "Full fathom five thy father
>lies...".
another part of the island. Isn't he?
JF
Jan 8, 2013, 4:56:56 PM1/8/13
to
On 08/01/2013 14:56, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> While I know this isn't what you are referring to, Ariel's song from _The
>> Tempest_ immediately popped into my mind. "Full fathom five thy father
>> lies...".
>
> And, IIRC, it isn't true; he's still alive but shipwrecked on
> another part of the island. Isn't he?
I left a tooth on the Great Barrier Reef. I wonder what's
>> While I know this isn't what you are referring to, Ariel's song from _The
>> Tempest_ immediately popped into my mind. "Full fathom five thy father
>> lies...".
>
> And, IIRC, it isn't true; he's still alive but shipwrecked on
> another part of the island. Isn't he?
happened to it.
JF
>
John F. Eldredge
Jan 9, 2013, 5:45:06 AM1/9/13
to
On Tue, 08 Jan 2013 14:56:29 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <al2as7...@mid.individual.net>, John F. Eldredge
> <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 01:46:03 -0600, Jymesion wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 17:21:30 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after he
>>>>was drowned.
>>>
>>> There's a song about a drowned assassin and his experience with being
>>> at the bottom of a river. I've only heard it in French, but it's an
>>> interesting little ditty.
>>
>>While I know this isn't what you are referring to, Ariel's song from
>>_The Tempest_ immediately popped into my mind. "Full fathom five thy
>>father lies...".
>
> And, IIRC, it isn't true; he's still alive but shipwrecked on another
> part of the island. Isn't he?
Yes, that is correct.
> In article <al2as7...@mid.individual.net>, John F. Eldredge
> <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 01:46:03 -0600, Jymesion wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 17:21:30 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>OTOH one of my characters got his best scene a year or two after he
>>>>was drowned.
>>>
>>> There's a song about a drowned assassin and his experience with being
>>> at the bottom of a river. I've only heard it in French, but it's an
>>> interesting little ditty.
>>
>>While I know this isn't what you are referring to, Ariel's song from
>>_The Tempest_ immediately popped into my mind. "Full fathom five thy
>>father lies...".
>
> And, IIRC, it isn't true; he's still alive but shipwrecked on another
> part of the island. Isn't he?
John F. Eldredge
Jan 9, 2013, 5:46:14 AM1/9/13
to
into something rich and strange...
JF
Jan 9, 2013, 6:02:42 AM1/9/13
to
On 09/01/2013 10:46, John F. Eldredge wrote:
>>>
>
> Nothing of him but doth change
> into something rich and strange...
I was thinking more along the lines of 'of his teeth is coral
>>>
>
> Nothing of him but doth change
> into something rich and strange...
made...'
JF
>
0 new messages