I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history background, for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic, and I find myself wanting very much to have plausible alternative names for "Europe," "England/Britain," "France," "Holland/The Netherlands," "Spain," and possibly a few other major European countries, preferrably ones that haven't been over-used already (like "Albion" for England), but at least some of which are more-or-less recognizeable (like "Albion" and "Gaul" and "Hispania"). I don't have enough linguistic or historical background to get away from the really obvious myself, so...suggestions? Brian, Zeborah, anybody?
Patricia C. Wrede wrote: > I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history background, > for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic,
Different for having magic - or is there also an important historical difference, like alternative origins of the first European settlers?
and
> I find myself wanting very much to have plausible alternative names for > "Europe," "England/Britain," "France," "Holland/The Netherlands," "Spain," > and possibly a few other major European countries, preferrably ones that > haven't been over-used already (like "Albion" for England), but at least > some of which are more-or-less recognizeable (like "Albion" and "Gaul" and > "Hispania"). I don't have enough linguistic or historical background to get > away from the really obvious myself, so...suggestions? Brian, Zeborah, > anybody?
> Patricia C. Wrede
(Pseudo-) Classical? Britannia or Anglia, Gallia, Batavia, Iberia, Germania or Alemannia? Or you might take the names of (sometime) important provinces and expand them over the whole area, just like "Holland" came to mean all of the Seven Priovinces in common usage. Of course *you* should have at least a vague concept why "Wessex", "Neustria" "Friesland" and "Castile" became so important.
As a reader, I would vastly prefer names I can recognize as historical or plausible developed from historical ones. Implausible renaming tends to annoy me a lot.
BTW - given that for central European countires, the English languaghe tends to use the Latin name (Bohemia, Moravia, Lithuania, Latvia etc.) I wondered what the German name of the country called "Ruritania" in English might have been - the one with the capital of Strelsau.
In article <11u86nacrcde...@corp.supernews.com>, "Patricia C. Wrede" <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote:
> I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history background, > for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic, and > I find myself wanting very much to have plausible alternative names for > "Europe," "England/Britain," "France," "Holland/The Netherlands," "Spain," > and possibly a few other major European countries, preferrably ones that > haven't been over-used already (like "Albion" for England), but at least > some of which are more-or-less recognizeable (like "Albion" and "Gaul" and > "Hispania"). I don't have enough linguistic or historical background to get > away from the really obvious myself, so...suggestions? Brian, Zeborah, > anybody?
You might think about Arabic names for European countries. "al-Andalus" is the obvious one. Western Europeans in general get referred to as Franks--"Ferangi" is I think the usual transliteration. I don't know about other terms, but they surely exist.
Or Latin and Greek terms for the relevant geographical locations.
In article <11u86nacrcde...@corp.supernews.com>, "Patricia C. Wrede" <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote:
>I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history background, >for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic, and >I find myself wanting very much to have plausible alternative names for >"Europe," "England/Britain," "France," "Holland/The Netherlands," "Spain," >and possibly a few other major European countries, preferrably ones that >haven't been over-used already (like "Albion" for England), but at least >some of which are more-or-less recognizeable (like "Albion" and "Gaul" and >"Hispania"). I don't have enough linguistic or historical background to get >away from the really obvious myself, so...suggestions? Brian, Zeborah, >anybody?
For Spain, how about Iberia or a variation thereof? For France, Aragon, Provence or one of the other old province names.
One suggestion is to look up the names of the countries in other languages, like Allemagne for Germany, Pays Bas or Niederland for Holland, Angleterre for England, etc.
I just typed in the country name in English, then selected from English, and to: whichever language I wanted.
I think Europe is going to be the hardest. It is in all languages Europa (the English version is the German spelling). She was the mother of Minos, King of Crete, by Zeus, who, in the form of a bull, carried her off. There is no cognate in Latin/Roman mythology, so you can't just put in the Roman variation. And it has been called Europa for a long long time.
Rich Weyand Working title "Message Received" complete WIP: untitled sequel
>Patricia C. Wrede wrote: >> I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history >> background, >> for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic, >Different for having magic - or is there also an important historical >difference, like alternative origins of the first European settlers?
The current plan is to have the primary difference before 1492 be that the various pre-historic attempts to colonize the Americas were unsuccessful; thus, no Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Mississippi Valley civilization, or Native Americans of any sort. Up to that point, I expect differences in Europe, Africa, and Asia will be due mainly to this world having magic, and I expect to wiggle things so that things are moderately close to Real Life history. The absence of an indiginous population in the Americas is obviously going to have a significant impact on the way things develop during the exploration and colonization period, and I'm still feeling my way through how I'm going to finagle that to get to where I want.
Which is, basically: A North America in which the threat of Indians was replaced by the threat of un-extinct megafauna, both magical and non-magical in nature (mammoths, wooly rhinocerouses, terror birds, dire wolves, dragons [what else would prey on mammoths and wooly rhinos?]). The U.S. was settled and had a successful revolution and a civil war, but the westward expansion has been slower and stalled for a while at the Mississippi for various reasons. Nobody has yet mapped all the way to the Pacific (I'm thinking of making California an island, the way it was depicted on early maps, but I haven't decided yet); the Lewis and White expedition never came back (no Sacajawea, plus did I mention that the Rockies are a favorite nesting ground for dragons?) East of the Mississippi, the megafauna have mostly been cleared out, especially in settled areas, though the backwoods parts of the country are still pretty dangerous. (Suggestions for place names that can substitute for Indian-language-origin names like Ohio, Chicago, Mississippi, Michigan, etc. are also welcome...)
I know the "feel" I'm after; now I need to work out some plausible backstory to get me there.
>(Pseudo-) Classical? Britannia or Anglia, Gallia, Batavia, Iberia, >Germania or Alemannia?
Britannia is a bit too close to Britain, I think, but it might do if I can't come up with something better. I'd forgotten about Iberia--that will work nicely.
>Or you might take the names of (sometime) important provinces and >expand them over the whole area, just like "Holland" came to mean all >of the Seven Priovinces in common usage. Of course *you* should have at >least a vague concept why "Wessex", "Neustria" "Friesland" and >"Castile" became so important.
That gives me some useful ideas, too; thank you.
>As a reader, I would vastly prefer names I can recognize as historical >or plausible developed from historical ones. Implausible renaming tends >to annoy me a lot.
> In article <11u86nacrcde...@corp.supernews.com>, > "Patricia C. Wrede" <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history >> background, >> for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic, >> and >> I find myself wanting very much to have plausible alternative names for >> "Europe," "England/Britain," "France," "Holland/The Netherlands," >> "Spain," >> and possibly a few other major European countries, preferrably ones that >> haven't been over-used already (like "Albion" for England), but at least >> some of which are more-or-less recognizeable (like "Albion" and "Gaul" >> and >> "Hispania"). I don't have enough linguistic or historical background to >> get >> away from the really obvious myself, so...suggestions? Brian, Zeborah, >> anybody?
> You might think about Arabic names for European countries. "al-Andalus" > is the obvious one. Western Europeans in general get referred to as > Franks--"Ferangi" is I think the usual transliteration. I don't know > about other terms, but they surely exist.
Ferangi is too close to the Star Trek guys, I think. I like the idea of using Arabic names, but coming up with a justification for why the place-names in this time-line are of Arabic origin seems to me to be difficult without making more changes to pre-1492 history than I'd like. Post-1492...things could get very interesting indeed.
> Or Latin and Greek terms for the relevant geographical locations.
David Friedman wrote: > You might think about Arabic names for European countries. "al-Andalus" > is the obvious one. Western Europeans in general get referred to as > Franks--"Ferangi" is I think the usual transliteration. I don't know > about other terms, but they surely exist.
> Or Latin and Greek terms for the relevant geographical locations.
>>> I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history >>> background, >>> for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic, >>> and >>> I find myself wanting very much to have plausible alternative names for >>> "Europe," "England/Britain," "France," "Holland/The Netherlands," >>> "Spain," >>> and possibly a few other major European countries, preferrably ones that >>> haven't been over-used already (like "Albion" for England), but at least >>> some of which are more-or-less recognizeable (like "Albion" and "Gaul" >>> and >>> "Hispania"). I don't have enough linguistic or historical background to >>> get >>> away from the really obvious myself, so...suggestions? Brian, Zeborah, >>> anybody?
>> You might think about Arabic names for European countries. "al-Andalus" >> is the obvious one. Western Europeans in general get referred to as >> Franks--"Ferangi" is I think the usual transliteration. I don't know >> about other terms, but they surely exist.
>Ferangi is too close to the Star Trek guys, I think. I like the idea of >using Arabic names, but coming up with a justification for why the >place-names in this time-line are of Arabic origin seems to me to be >difficult without making more changes to pre-1492 history than I'd like. >Post-1492...things could get very interesting indeed.
>> Or Latin and Greek terms for the relevant geographical locations.
In article <PfmdnR7CO5LBunneRVn...@wideopenwest.com>,
Rich Weyand <wey...@rcn.com> wrote: >I think Europe is going to be the hardest. It is in all languages Europa (the >English version is the German spelling). She was the mother of Minos, King of >Crete, by Zeus, who, in the form of a bull, carried her off. There is no >cognate in Latin/Roman mythology, so you can't just put in the Roman >variation. And it has been called Europa for a long long time.
James Nicoll wrote: > In article <PfmdnR7CO5LBunneRVn...@wideopenwest.com>, > Rich Weyand <wey...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>I think Europe is going to be the hardest. It is in all languages Europa (the >>English version is the German spelling). She was the mother of Minos, King of >>Crete, by Zeus, who, in the form of a bull, carried her off. There is no >>cognate in Latin/Roman mythology, so you can't just put in the Roman >>variation. And it has been called Europa for a long long time.
> What do Europe's neighbors call it? The Turks and such?
According to http://www.hazar.com/ , which claims to be a free online english/turkish dictionary, Avrupa.
Bill
-- Bill Swears
Ever Inappropriate, always contrite, and now... Ironic! How cool is that?
In article <11u8c5jns6sa...@corp.supernews.com>, "Patricia C. Wrede" <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote:
> Which is, basically: A North America in which the threat of Indians was > replaced by the threat of un-extinct megafauna, both magical and non-magical > in nature (mammoths, wooly rhinocerouses, terror birds, dire wolves, dragons > [what else would prey on mammoths and wooly rhinos?]).
Have you read _1491_? I gather it's about current views of human activity in the New World before Columbus.
I've seen it argued that the settling of the East Coast was made much easier because the Indians had cleared the land--and then mostly died from Old World diseases brought by early explorers.
>>>I think Europe is going to be the hardest. It is in all languages Europa (the >>>English version is the German spelling). She was the mother of Minos, King of >>>Crete, by Zeus, who, in the form of a bull, carried her off. There is no >>>cognate in Latin/Roman mythology, so you can't just put in the Roman >>>variation. And it has been called Europa for a long long time.
>> What do Europe's neighbors call it? The Turks and such?
>According to http://www.hazar.com/ , which claims to be a free online >english/turkish dictionary, Avrupa.
I rather like THAT. It gives a sense of foreignness without being alien.
In article <11u8c5jns6sa...@corp.supernews.com>, Patricia C. Wrede <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote:
>(Suggestions for place names that can >substitute for Indian-language-origin names like Ohio, Chicago, Mississippi, >Michigan, etc. are also welcome...)
For Chicago, keep in mind that the word means "skunk-cabbage." French spelling of a Central Algonkian word something like shka:k-wa, cognate with Eastern Algonkian ska:nk-wa, "skunk." (-wa is a nominalizing suffix, you find it all through the language.) In what language you're going to find a word for "stinky plants" (I don't even know what skunk-cabbage looks like), I leave up to you.
Dorothy J. Heydt Albany, California djhe...@kithrup.com
Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <11u8c5jns6sa...@corp.supernews.com>, > Patricia C. Wrede <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote:
>>(Suggestions for place names that can >>substitute for Indian-language-origin names like Ohio, Chicago, Mississippi, >>Michigan, etc. are also welcome...)
> For Chicago, keep in mind that the word means "skunk-cabbage." > French spelling of a Central Algonkian word something like > shka:k-wa, cognate with Eastern Algonkian ska:nk-wa, "skunk." > (-wa is a nominalizing suffix, you find it all through the > language.) In what language you're going to find a word for > "stinky plants" (I don't even know what skunk-cabbage looks > like), I leave up to you.
> Dorothy J. Heydt > Albany, California > djhe...@kithrup.com
How about New Geneva, since it's a city on a huge lake? It seems like there should be more new Avropa names, if there weren't pseudo native American names to use.
-- Bill Swears
Ever Inappropriate, always contrite, and now... Ironic! How cool is that?
In article <11u8c5jns6sa...@corp.supernews.com>, "Patricia C. Wrede" <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote:
>(Suggestions for place names that can >substitute for Indian-language-origin names like Ohio, Chicago, Mississippi, >Michigan, etc. are also welcome...)
Look at the non-Indian place names: Detroit, Ft. Wayne, Superior, Marseilles, Des Plaines, Joliet, Peru, LaSalle, South Bend, Lafayette, Little Rock, Big Rock, Hinkley, Bloomington, Normal, Springfield, Sandwich, Ames, Davenport, Rock Island, West Bend, Des Moines....
What you get is a lot of French cities, words and phrases, lots of English cities, words and phrases, and some German, Swedish, Polish... ones as well.
Rich Weyand Working title "Message Received" complete WIP: untitled sequel
In article <Iu5Eoz...@kithrup.com>, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>For Chicago, keep in mind that the word means "skunk-cabbage." >French spelling of a Central Algonkian word something like >shka:k-wa, cognate with Eastern Algonkian ska:nk-wa, "skunk." >(-wa is a nominalizing suffix, you find it all through the >language.) In what language you're going to find a word for >"stinky plants" (I don't even know what skunk-cabbage looks >like), I leave up to you.
Ooo, I like this game. In French, skunk cabbage is chou de mouffette, while smelly cabbage is chou malodorant.
Probably be spelled Choumalodorant and pronounced choo MAL duh rant.
(Note that Des Plaines is dez PLAINZ, Bourbonnais is bur buh NAZE, and Marseilles is mar SALES)
Rich Weyand Working title "Message Received" complete WIP: untitled sequel
JoergR...@yahoo.de wrote: > BTW - given that for central European countires, the English languaghe > tends to use the Latin name (Bohemia, Moravia, Lithuania, Latvia etc.) > I wondered what the German name of the country called "Ruritania" in > English might have been - the one with the capital of Strelsau.
> In article <11u8c5jns6sa...@corp.supernews.com>, "Patricia C. Wrede" > <pwrede6...@aol.com> wrote: >>(Suggestions for place names that can >>substitute for Indian-language-origin names like Ohio, Chicago, >>Mississippi, >>Michigan, etc. are also welcome...)
> Look at the non-Indian place names: Detroit, Ft. Wayne, Superior, > Marseilles, > Des Plaines, Joliet, Peru, LaSalle, South Bend, Lafayette, Little Rock, > Big > Rock, Hinkley, Bloomington, Normal, Springfield, Sandwich, Ames, > Davenport, > Rock Island, West Bend, Des Moines....
> What you get is a lot of French cities, words and phrases, lots of English > cities, words and phrases, and some German, Swedish, Polish... ones as > well.
I'm expecting to use a bunch more French names. I've also been looking at the kinds of what-happened-here names that quite a few towns in the West got called. My current favorite is the town of Lost Chicken, but Dead Mule is a close second. And that appears to be a universal system, not limited to English -- the aforementioned "Skunk Cabbage," for instance, and the Grand Tetons, and Aux Claire, Mille Lacs, and assorted other place-names.
The trick, I'm finding, is coming up with names that are sufficiently different, but that don't cause a sort of cognitive dissonance when combined in the same story with names that *would*, very likely, be the same, like Washington and Virginia and Carolina. Of course, I can change those, too, but then I really start to lose the feel I want. It's a delicate balancing act.
> In article <Iu5Eoz...@kithrup.com>, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) > wrote: >>For Chicago, keep in mind that the word means "skunk-cabbage." >>French spelling of a Central Algonkian word something like >>shka:k-wa, cognate with Eastern Algonkian ska:nk-wa, "skunk." >>(-wa is a nominalizing suffix, you find it all through the >>language.) In what language you're going to find a word for >>"stinky plants" (I don't even know what skunk-cabbage looks >>like), I leave up to you.
> Ooo, I like this game. In French, skunk cabbage is chou de mouffette, > while > smelly cabbage is chou malodorant.
What's French for "Big Muddy River"? That's the obvious thing to call the Mississippi, which is going to be a fairly important feature in this book, I think, but I can't quite bring myself to be so obvious as to call it that in English.
Having grown up in the Chicago suburbs, I'm rather fond of the idea of continuing to call the city after skunk-cabbage.
> James Nicoll wrote: >> In article <PfmdnR7CO5LBunneRVn...@wideopenwest.com>, >> Rich Weyand <wey...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>>I think Europe is going to be the hardest. It is in all languages Europa >>>(the English version is the German spelling). She was the mother of >>>Minos, King of Crete, by Zeus, who, in the form of a bull, carried her >>>off. There is no cognate in Latin/Roman mythology, so you can't just put >>>in the Roman variation. And it has been called Europa for a long long >>>time.
>> What do Europe's neighbors call it? The Turks and such?
> According to http://www.hazar.com/ , which claims to be a free online > english/turkish dictionary, Avrupa.
That has distinct possibilites -- it's close enough to be recognizeable, with some effort, but different enough to have the sort of alternate-history feel I'm looking for.
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 04:02:38 GMT, wey...@rcn.com (Rich Weyand) wrote:
>I think Europe is going to be the hardest. It is in all languages Europa (the >English version is the German spelling). She was the mother of Minos, King of >Crete, by Zeus, who, in the form of a bull, carried her off. There is no >cognate in Latin/Roman mythology, so you can't just put in the Roman >variation. And it has been called Europa for a long long time.
Maybe leave "Europe" as the one unchanged name.
I was going to suggest cribbing from Aaron Allston's "Doc Sidhe" novels for alternative European nation names (while noting that this wasn't necessarily a *good* suggestion), and IIRC he left the name "Europe" unchanged.
[checking] Yes, at one point one of the characters from the alternate world makes the distinction: "Our Europe, not the grimworld Europe."
In article <d6h9u1d56p4ekrq4dkt10lubtukhhc7...@4ax.com>, Erol K. Bayburt <Ero...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I was going to suggest cribbing from Aaron Allston's "Doc Sidhe" >novels for alternative European nation names (while noting that this >wasn't necessarily a *good* suggestion), and IIRC he left the name >"Europe" unchanged.
>[checking] Yes, at one point one of the characters from the alternate >world makes the distinction: "Our Europe, not the grimworld Europe."
Hm. But they way you tell it, "Europe" is still the name the thisworlders give it. What do the grimworlders call it?
Keep in mind that throughout the Middle Ages and at least into the beginning of the Renaissance, there was a word for "Europe." It was "Christendom." Whether that would fit into Patricia's world setup, only she can tell us.
Dorothy J. Heydt Albany, California djhe...@kithrup.com
Patricia C. Wrede wrote: > I'm currently in the middle of developing some alternate-history background, > for a book set in a very alternate mid-1800s U.S.-equivalent-with-magic, and > I find myself wanting very much to have plausible alternative names for > "Europe," "England/Britain," "France," "Holland/The Netherlands," "Spain," > and possibly a few other major European countries, preferrably ones that > haven't been over-used already (like "Albion" for England), but at least > some of which are more-or-less recognizeable (like "Albion" and "Gaul" and > "Hispania"). I don't have enough linguistic or historical background to get > away from the really obvious myself, so...suggestions? Brian, Zeborah, > anybody?
Recognizability will go down, but you could name the realms after some of the tribes that used to live there.
I tend to translate place names into modern equivalents in my alternate history setting (e.g. York instead of Jorvik), though, same way I tend to translate amounts of money into pounds of silver instead of bothering the reader with the various arcane non-decimal currency systems.
wey...@rcn.com (Rich Weyand) wrote on 04.02.06 in <PfmdnR7CO5LBunneRVn...@wideopenwest.com>:
> I think Europe is going to be the hardest. It is in all languages Europa > (the English version is the German spelling). She was the mother of Minos,
I can't parse the parenthetical.
> King of Crete, by Zeus, who, in the form of a bull, carried her off. There > is no cognate in Latin/Roman mythology, so you can't just put in the Roman > variation. And it has been called Europa for a long long time.
What I never figured out is *why* it was called Europa. That certainly wasn't the case during the time when the classical Greek and Roman cultures were dominant - certainly not before Byzantium.
Patricia C. Wrede wrote: > Britannia is a bit too close to Britain, I think, but it might do if I can't > come up with something better. I'd forgotten about Iberia--that will work > nicely.
