Non-Humans in Fantasy
Jim Bayers
advice to her website. Here is an excerpt that had us talking:
"Elves, goblins, dwarfs and dragons will virtually get a manuscript rejected
on first sighting. There's a manuscript that has been going around the
Australian publishing houses for the past 3 years. It's basically a very
good manuscript, but it has a goblin on p. 49, and that's been its death
knell with every publishing house thus far."
An acquaintence was wondering about it. He's finished a book with
traditional fantasy races and is wondering if it will hurt his chances of
getting published.
Here is the link to the article which I found useful:
http://www.saradouglass.com/epic.html
SF, fantasy, horror weblog and workshop.
Anne M. Marble
> Like a lot of writers these days, Sara Douglas has some posted writing
> advice to her website. Here is an excerpt that had us talking:
>
> "Elves, goblins, dwarfs and dragons will virtually get a manuscript
rejected
> on first sighting. There's a manuscript that has been going around the
> Australian publishing houses for the past 3 years. It's basically a very
> good manuscript, but it has a goblin on p. 49, and that's been its death
> knell with every publishing house thus far."
I think what she was discussing in her article was the "cute" factor. She
seems to be emphasizing the need for more gritty and realistic fantasy.
However, I don't necessarily see fantasy races as being "cute." Her whole
article is about the importance of fantasy being realistic to get a more
mature audience -- but there's a place for more than one kind of fantasy.
If cute and unrealistic fantasy doesn't sell, why are those books still on
the fantasy best-seller lists?
Also, let's not forget that at the beginning of her article, Sara Douglas
mentioned that she hated the word "fantasy." Huh? Anyway, it's clear that
she's uncomfortable about some aspects of fantasy. She keeps mentioning
that supernatural creatures are "cute." They are?!
We also haven't seen the manuscript she's talking about. There could be
other factors.
> An acquaintence was wondering about it. He's finished a book with
> traditional fantasy races and is wondering if it will hurt his chances of
> getting published.
Is he aiming for the U.S. market or an overseas market? Sara Douglas'
experience is in the Australian fantasy market, which might have different
demands. Many of the fantasies published in the U.S. still have fantasy
races.
------
Holly Lisle's Forward Motion Writing Site
http://hollylisle.com/fm/
Silvered Glass
<te...@test.com> wrote:
<snip>
>An acquaintence was wondering about it. He's finished a book with
>traditional fantasy races and is wondering if it will hurt his chances of
>getting published.
I tend to suspect that it depends on how he handled them,
but I don't know. However -- allow me to practice my
understatement -- I cannot be said to have any great
confidence in any assertion made in the article you
reference.
>Here is the link to the article which I found useful:
>
>http://www.saradouglass.com/epic.html
<choking noises>
All right. Some degenerate latter-day versions of these
creatures are cute. But elves and angels in their original
conceptions are not, *not*, *NOT* cute.
The first of remark of a Biblical angel tends to be "Fear
not," because the person he's addressing has a tendency to
be face down on the ground, prostrate with terror or
swooning. The Fair Folk are called that because they're
powerful and dangerous and capricious and their hapless
human neighbors are very much afraid to offend them -- or to
draw their attention at all, at most times.
I was going to comment on the rest of the article, but I
agree with almost nothing in it and I strongly suspect the
whole thing of being an exercise in leg-pulling. I won't
swear to this, given the oddness of opinions it's possible
to find online, but ...
The modern world is safe? (That's funny; *I* thought the
last _Scientific American_ I read was hair-raising.
Evidently I was mistaken.) Nobody sets a fantasy in our own
world? Worldbuilding takes at most two hours? It's a good
idea always to clone Western medieval Europe for fantasy
worlds, except that we shouldn't keep its sex roles?
<mixture of laughter and choking noises, cutting off
comments on her further outrageous remarks>
She's kidding. She's *got* to be kidding.
Patricia C. Wrede
<te...@test.com> writes:
>"Elves, goblins, dwarfs and dragons will virtually get a manuscript rejected
>on first sighting. There's a manuscript that has been going around the
>Australian publishing houses for the past 3 years. It's basically a very
>good manuscript, but it has a goblin on p. 49, and that's been its death
>knell with every publishing house thus far."
Maybe in Australia. But nowhere *I* know (i.e., in the U.S.) would reject
"basically a very good manuscript" simply because of a goblin on p. 49. In the
exceedingly unlikely event that the editor had a problem with it for some
reason, he'd buy the ms. and then ask the author to come up with some name for
the creature other than "goblin."
>An acquaintence was wondering about it. He's finished a book with
>traditional fantasy races and is wondering if it will hurt his chances of
>getting published.
Maybe in Australia, if the publishers there do indeed have a silly rules set as
described (which I actually rather doubt). Not anywhere else I know of.
Patricia C. Wrede
Sea Wasp
>
> Jim Bayers <te...@test.com> wrote:
> > Like a lot of writers these days, Sara Douglas has some posted writing
> > advice to her website. Here is an excerpt that had us talking:
> >
> > "Elves, goblins, dwarfs and dragons will virtually get a manuscript
> rejected
> > on first sighting. There's a manuscript that has been going around the
> > Australian publishing houses for the past 3 years. It's basically a very
> > good manuscript, but it has a goblin on p. 49, and that's been its death
> > knell with every publishing house thus far."
>
> I think what she was discussing in her article was the "cute" factor. She
> seems to be emphasizing the need for more gritty and realistic fantasy.
> However, I don't necessarily see fantasy races as being "cute." Her whole
> article is about the importance of fantasy being realistic to get a more
> mature audience -- but there's a place for more than one kind of fantasy.
> If cute and unrealistic fantasy doesn't sell, why are those books still on
> the fantasy best-seller lists?
>
> Also, let's not forget that at the beginning of her article, Sara Douglas
> mentioned that she hated the word "fantasy." Huh? Anyway, it's clear that
> she's uncomfortable about some aspects of fantasy. She keeps mentioning
> that supernatural creatures are "cute." They are?!
Oh yeah, that Vermithrax was just so CUDDLY in Dragonslayer, and as
for those goblins in Lord of the Rings, they were just sooooo cuuuute.
NOT.
I wanna know how I'm supposed to DO fantasy worlds if I'm not allowed
to have fantastic creatures in them. If magic exists, presumably the
ecology incorporates some aspect of that...
(That said, one of my fantasy races IS portrayed as cute, but it's
not a race that many people would associate with as BEING cute at
first)
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
Silvered Glass
<silvere...@mail.comCLIPME> wrote:
<snip>
>She's kidding. She's *got* to be kidding.
I take it back.
I see by reading her other comments on fantasy that she's
probably not kidding. It looks like she's seriously writing
essays on how to do hideously derivative fat fantasy that's
indistinguishable from every other fat fantasy out there.
Egad.
Maybe it sells. But it doesn't sell to me if I recognize
that a hideously derivative fat fantasy is what I'm looking
at, and I don't want to write anything I wouldn't care to
buy.
Brian M. Scott
<silvere...@mail.comCLIPME> wrote:
>On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 06:25:50 -0700, "Jim Bayers"
><te...@test.com> wrote:
[...]
>>Here is the link to the article which I found useful:
>>http://www.saradouglass.com/epic.html
><choking noises>
[...]
>I was going to comment on the rest of the article, but I
>agree with almost nothing in it and I strongly suspect the
>whole thing of being an exercise in leg-pulling. I won't
>swear to this, given the oddness of opinions it's possible
>to find online, but ...
On the page from which it's linked she says that it's from a talk
given to her local Shakespeare Society and that it's 'a bit silly',
but this appears to refer more to the presentation and some of the
details than to the substance: her more serious page on the same
subject is at <http://www.saradouglass.com/createw.html> and says much
the same things.
I now have some idea of why I found _The Wayfarer Redemption_ almost
unreadable.
[...]
Brian
Boudewijn Rempt
What I want to know is whether she _submits_ her stuff in that font... It
takes the concept of readability to a whole new plane of hell.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Alma Hromic Deckert
<silvere...@mail.comCLIPME> wrote:
>http://www.saradouglass.com/epic.html
from the article in question:
"I just want briefly to mention how I create this 'new' (or revamped
earth) world.... in creating a new world you must also create a new
religion, a new culture (and a culture with myths that stretch back
hundreds if not thousands of years), a new language, new systems of
counting, new of ways of relating to space and time (new distances,
new ways to tell time), new swear words ... the list goes on and on.
And, you must do this for every race you create to live in your world:
every race has its own culture, languages, religions, myths etc. How
long is all this going to take? .... No less than half an hour, no
more than 2 hours, and 2 hours is more than ample. Quite literally,
all you have to do is create a map, that is, create a landscape ...
and that landscape will then present to you the types and
numbers of races, the structures of their societies, what is important
in their lives and how they live their lives. It also give you
religions, gods, systems of magic, government ... whatever. Even the
myths that stretch back into the unseen past. The landscape itself
will give you the rest. "
it will? how wonderful... i 've obviously been doing it wrong all
these years. i'm now 40 000 words into my new epic, and i still
haven't drawn a map. funny, though - my culture, my myths, my
language, my races (well i'm content with one race - the human one -
in this book...) are all there, and are there in spades. and no, it
didn't take me half an hour to do it. it didn't even take me two hours
to do it. in fact, i'm still doing it - reading up, jotting down,
looking at books, notes, scribbles. building the world is half of
writing my book. half an hour?... two hours?... jeez, i wish i knew
what i was doing wrong. i could have finished this book a week ago if
i'd just done things the map way.
"I've always started with a map."
ah. so it's HER way of doing things. not 'all YOU need is a map'.
" I sit down and take a half an hour to draw freehand, and without any
planning, a map of a land. Here's the coastline (always putting in a
bay or two so you can have a port town ... ports always come in
useful), here's a few towns, here some lakes, here hills, here's a
bog, here a road, and so forth. Oh, and always a fog-bound
island or two off the coastline from whence fierce pirates or
mysterious barges can sail forth from time to time. "
what was it someone said in here a few rounds ago? a landscape full of
giant man-eating cliches? (you create a world on the grounds of, yeah,
we'll have a port town, they always come in useful???)
"By morning tea time you have a plot and something to keep you out of
mischief for several years while you write it up. Easy."
right. naturally.
"The first and most obvious of these is that fantasy books not only
come in thick, but they also come in series of 3, 6, 9 or 13."
mine was 2.
i seem to be doign EVERYTHING wrong...
A.
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
>
>What I want to know is whether she _submits_ her stuff in that font... It
>takes the concept of readability to a whole new plane of hell.
you can't have hell. it's filled with imps, and they're cute.
A.
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
<quoting Sara Douglass>
I still say this /has/ to be a piss-take. However, I just
wanted to note that this:
> all you have to do is create a map, that is, create a
>landscape ... and that landscape will then present to you
>the types and numbers of races, the structures of their
>societies, what is important in their lives and how they
>live their lives. It also give you religions, gods, systems
>of magic, government ... whatever. Even the myths that
>stretch back into the unseen past. The landscape itself
> will give you the rest. "
is not quite as daft as it sounds. Not quite. If you settle
down to cosmology, geology, paleontology, factor in a change
or two of climate, work out a basic ecology, and *then* draw
a map, it *will* give you most of the above things. Although
you have to cheat a little by working out the eco-system in
parallel with the map. And you do need the cosmology to give
you the gods-and-governments side of thing.
I did this with Orthe, ages back, and I wrote an article
about it for which I've lost the URL... ah well. And that
was science fiction, so I suppose It Doesn't Count. :)
However, when she says:
> " I sit down and take a half an hour to draw freehand, and
>without any planning, a map of a land.
she's potty.
Although I have to say that I did once follow this precise
method:
>Here's the coastline (always putting in a bay or two so you
>can have a port town ... ports always come in useful),
>here's a few towns, here some lakes, here hills, here's a
> bog, here a road, and so forth. Oh, and always a fog-bound
> island or two off the coastline from whence fierce pirates
>or mysterious barges can sail forth from time to time. "
and that was when I was drawing up the map for the bible for
_Villains,_ a shared-world anthology I co-edited way back in
the Jurassic. However, the *point* of _Villains_ was that it
was set in Fantasy Cliché Land. The idea of doing this with
a straight face... oy. And vey.
> i seem to be doign EVERYTHING wrong...
Join the club. <g>
I even did cute orcs.
Mary
they were _cute,_ okay?
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Of course they are.
Is it my mind, or has there actually been a Disney's _Dante?_
I can see it so *very* clearly... <g>
Mary
Catja Pafort
> Like a lot of writers these days, Sara Douglas has some posted writing
> advice to her website. Here is an excerpt that had us talking:
>
> "Elves, goblins, dwarfs and dragons will virtually get a manuscript rejected
> on first sighting. There's a manuscript that has been going around the
> Australian publishing houses for the past 3 years. It's basically a very
> good manuscript, but it has a goblin on p. 49, and that's been its death
> knell with every publishing house thus far."
Yeah, right.
As if every editor was telling her why they rejected the manuscript. If
it was basically a very good book, apart from the goblin, I should think
an interested editor might contact the author and say 'we'll buy it
without goblins' or at least *tell* him what the problem was.
If the author knows exactly that all that stands between him and
publication is a goblin on page 49; he might be commended for his
artistic integrity (it will get published as I have written it); but
that day might never come.
Putting words in their mouths, but editors don't like people who will
make NO corrections to their texts.
And Harry Potter has no goblins in it, of course. Tad Williams 'Sorrow,
Memory and Thorn' has no elves in it. Elisabeth Moon's Paksennarion has
no dwarfs in it. And, and, and.
I read a little of that article.
Bits I *particularly* disliked where
> It is also, even for most Australian writers, a northern hemisphere world,
> where January and February are cold and snowy, and June and July are hot.
> Why? I am often asked ... well, mostly because we're forced to by the
> expectation of our readership.
I can't see anyone forcing her; but I can see a case for starting the
year with Winter or Spring and ending it with autumn or Winter. The
latter seems to be even more prevalent. On the whole, I don't think it
matters at all.
She goes on:
>We might live in the great hot southern land, but our culture, and our
>mythic imaginations, are mostly European. And the northern European
>landscape (both geographic and mythological) is still where most
>fantasy writers choose to set their grand tale. Again, there are
>exceptions, but they are the exception. Whatever, the fantasy author
>must recreate this world ... with only a few slight changes (and those
>slight changes are generally to be able replace the mystery and magic
>that science has cut out).
Welcome to Tough Guide Country, I says.
>The problem in creating a vastly different
>world, and the reason why we don't do it, is that the reader won't be
>able to relate to it, and the one thing most fantasy readers want to do
>is to relate to the world they are being presented with, and to be able
>to place themselves within it. They want/need to be able to partake in
>the journey as well. They still need to be able to access the quest.
The reader is perfectly able to relate to stories set anywhere you
please on this globe, and even to stories set in space, because they
involve human beings, and those don't change that much with location.
Heck, readers are even capable of relating to _alien_ beings (and
supernaturals) if they are drawn emphatically enough.
This very much reads like a guide to 'how to write a bestseller that has
very little depth and that doesn't challenge readers at all'. Fine if
you like that sort of thing; but I don't think that by forcibly dumbing
down your writing your chances of publication will grow any better.
She advocates starting the world-building with a map. She's not the
first or the last to recommend that.
I must quote the following in full, because it must be appreciated.
>So how long does it take? No less than half an hour, no more than 2
>hours, and 2 hours is more than ample. Quite literally, all you have to
>do is create a map, that is, create a landscape ... and that landscape
>will then present to you the types and numbers of races, the structures
>of their societies, what is important in their lives and how they live
>their lives. It also give you religions, gods, systems of magic,
>government ... whatever. Even the myths that stretch back into the
>unseen past.
>The landscape itself will give you the rest. I've always
>started with a map. I sit down and take a half an hour to draw
>freehand, and without any planning, a map of a land. Here's the
>coastline (always putting in a bay or two so you can have a port town
>... ports always come in useful), here's a few towns, here some lakes,
>here hills, here's a bog, here a road, and so forth. Oh, and always a
>fog-bound island or two off the coastline from whence fierce pirates or
>mysterious barges can sail forth from time to time. Once you've done
>that, then you can see where different peoples are going to live: here
>the people who live on the plains and grow crops and herd livestock;
>here the hills where live isolated groups of mysterious monks; here the
>peoples who live in the soaring mountains or the flat wastelands. The
>landscape dictates how they live, and from there you move quickly to
>the nature of their religions etc., the types of conflicts which might
>occur between the various races, the resentments that will blow up,
>etc. etc. etc. By morning tea time you have a plot and something to
>keep you out of mischief for several years while you write it up. Easy.
Geodeterminism has been out of fashion for quite some time now. While
plots may rise out of the world a story is set in; clichee-riddled
backgrounds are likely to give you clichee-riddled plots.
>Like most fantasy authors, I almost always use a clone of the
>western European medieval world as a template.
'Go, evil spirit', is all I can say. A lot of what I write has a
medieval/renaissance feel to it because I (and most of my characters)
like books; and it's a world I feel at home in. I can see what works in
such a society, how things would fit together, how people would behave,
what might or might not be normal. But that's just me. I *love* reading
books that are set in other cultures, cultures I don't have as easily
access to; I've read some lovely Victorian or Eastern or whatever
stories; but maybe the majority of people who write (and consider the
publishers of) English language fantasy speak English and are
well-versed in either European or North-American culture and heritage.
It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
>Because the fantasy world is so largely (if loosely) based about the
>eternal conflict between good and evil, the issues within the fantasy
>book can too easily become rigidly black and white. It therefore
>becomes a huge temptation for the fantasy author to portray not only
>issues, but cultures, in purely black and white terms. It becomes too
>easy, in using the template of a paternalistic and racist world, to be
>both sexist and racist in the newly created world.
That's someone talking to a mirror. I found that she was treating her
women *very* badly (at least in the first three volumes of the Axis
trilogy; I had no desire to read on) and while antagony between
different races was a part of the plot, I think both will come in if the
writer has internalised those values, and won't if he hasn't. In that,
fantasy is no different from anything else.
<snips>
>Fantasy over the past few years has become increasingly darker, and I
>don't think that has any other reason for it than the fact that the
>market was over-stocked with the cute-Tolkien would-bes.
Has anyone else found this? I'd say it has become more realistic, which
is a Good Thing.
<snip>
> Can you imagine how hard it is to create a plot that you know will
> probably have to go on for 3 thick books and, if the initial series is
> successful, may have to go on for another 6 or 9 thick books?
Can you imagine how hard it is to find interesting things to write about
characters you know really well in a world you love? I should think the
'Recluce' model (loosely connected tales, some featuring the same
characters, some set at different points in time) is what one would
strive for, not the 'Wheel of Time'. because it seems to need an awful
lot of publicity to get people to buy something that comes to no
satisfactory conclusion.
I've also come to the conclusion that, given the number of apparent
editorial mistakes she's managed to get into print (characters
resurrected, one who had his left arm blown off and mysteriously
reattached) that her editor must have gone to sleep from boredom at some
point during her latest.
I think the article is raising some interesting points; but that was
nothing in comparison to the raised eyebrows it created...
Catja
Tim S
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 06:25:50 -0700, "Jim Bayers"
> <te...@test.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Here is the link to the article which I found useful:
>>
>> http://www.saradouglass.com/epic.html
>
> <choking noises>
<snip>
>
> I was going to comment on the rest of the article, but I
> agree with almost nothing in it and I strongly suspect the
> whole thing of being an exercise in leg-pulling. I won't
> swear to this, given the oddness of opinions it's possible
> to find online, but ...
>
> The modern world is safe? (That's funny; *I* thought the
> last _Scientific American_ I read was hair-raising.
> Evidently I was mistaken.) Nobody sets a fantasy in our own
> world? Worldbuilding takes at most two hours? It's a good
> idea always to clone Western medieval Europe for fantasy
> worlds, except that we shouldn't keep its sex roles?
> <mixture of laughter and choking noises, cutting off
> comments on her further outrageous remarks>
>
> She's kidding. She's *got* to be kidding.
Ah, that is a possible explanation. I just assumed she was a blithering
idiot.
(Science takes the mystery out of the world? I guess I know everything about
everything, then. And there was I thinking there was so much to learn, and
so little time to learn it. There's no struggle between good and evil in the
modern world? Good God, has she never read a newspaper? Or watched
television? Or, or, like, spoken to another human being? Ever? Or once or
twice left the small metal box she lives in buried three miles underground?)
Tim
Tim S
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In article <lto4gusl9mad0g67e...@4ax.com>,
> ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
>
> <quoting Sara Douglass>
>
> I still say this /has/ to be a piss-take. However, I just
> wanted to note that this:
>
>> all you have to do is create a map, that is, create a
>> landscape ... and that landscape will then present to you
>> the types and numbers of races, the structures of their
>> societies, what is important in their lives and how they
>> live their lives. It also give you religions, gods, systems
>> of magic, government ... whatever. Even the myths that
>> stretch back into the unseen past. The landscape itself
>> will give you the rest. "
>
> is not quite as daft as it sounds. Not quite. If you settle
> down to cosmology, geology, paleontology, factor in a change
> or two of climate, work out a basic ecology, and *then* draw
> a map, it *will* give you most of the above things. Although
> you have to cheat a little by working out the eco-system in
> parallel with the map. And you do need the cosmology to give
> you the gods-and-governments side of thing.
Well, I'm fascinated to know how you can deduce the religion, structure of a
society and the form of government from looking at a landscape. ("Rolling
hills? It must be a constitutional monarchy." "Mountains means pantheists."
"A dense coniferous forest is an infallible sign of an Omaha-style kinship
system." There's no end to the fun you could have.)
>
> I even did cute orcs.
>
> Mary
> they were _cute,_ okay?
Oh, yes, dear little things.
Tim
Tim S
Oh, God, so can I. Choruses of merry demons dancing round the seventh circle
of hell. Flaming tombs snapping open and shut in some comic rhythm. Tortured
souls popping their heads out of the molten sulphur to wittily finish a
line. Paolo and Francesca waltzing through the air. A tap-dancing Virgil.
What have you started?
Aarrrgh!
<Runs screaming into the night>
Tim
Pyrephox
>it will? how wonderful... i 've obviously been doing it wrong all
>these years. i'm now 40 000 words into my new epic, and i still
>haven't drawn a map. funny, though - my culture, my myths, my
>language, my races (well i'm content with one race - the human one -
>in this book...) are all there, and are there in spades. and no, it
>didn't take me half an hour to do it. it didn't even take me two hours
>to do it. in fact, i'm still doing it - reading up, jotting down,
>looking at books, notes, scribbles. building the world is half of
>writing my book. half an hour?... two hours?... jeez, i wish i knew
>what i was doing wrong. i could have finished this book a week ago if
>i'd just done things the map way.
>
Heh. Although I've found that most of what the article says boggles me, I'll
have to admit that I, too, usually start with a map. And even if I don't start
with a map, I draw one fairly soon after beginning work on anything longer than
5K words.
A map *does* help me come up with culture, characters, subplots, and even other
stories. I'm pretty sure it's a legacy of my gaming...I've learned to think in
maps. But it sure as heck doesn't take two hours to come up with that! Two
*days* for the basics (honorifics, if any, main religion of the protagonist's
culture, local power structure), and some sketchy descriptions of various
cities or buildings, maybe.
And I like fantasy races.
Pyrpehox
Joann Zimmerman
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk says...
> I did this with Orthe, ages back, and I wrote an article
> about it for which I've lost the URL... ah well. And that
> was science fiction, so I suppose It Doesn't Count. :)
http://www.rastus.force9.co.uk/SB5Gentle.html do you?
Ain't Google wonderful?
I use a map, but only because I'm writing about a real place (only I'm
changing some names ...)
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Brooks Moses
> In article <vmp4gusbt1mocpvsh...@4ax.com>,
> ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
> > On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:01:47 +0200, Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org> wrote:
> > > What I want to know is whether she _submits_ her stuff in that font... It
> > > takes the concept of readability to a whole new plane of hell.
> >
> > you can't have hell. it's filled with imps, and they're
> > cute.
>
> Of course they are.
I was reading this to my wife; she doesn't see anything wrong with cute
... in her words: "Cute can be an advantage -- there's nothing more
startling than something that's so cute that you just have to reach out
and pet it and go 'oh, how _cute_' and it bites your hand off at the
wrist."
> Is it my mind, or has there actually been a Disney's _Dante?_
> I can see it so *very* clearly... <g>
Perhaps you're thinking of the "Night on Bald Mountain" series from
_Fantasia_? That's her thought, anyhow, and it does have impish things
in.
- Brooks
Jim Cannon
masses...
Now, I've actually tried to read one of her books. Normally I'm the
type of person who will force himself to finish a book if he's paid
for it; I even read _Wizard's First Rule_ all the way through, so you
know I'm serious. Couldn't do that with _Wayfarer Redemption_, though.
That which is disheartening is that, even though I disagree with
almost everything in her essay (slamming science -- and not
understanding science at all -- in particular), I know she has sold
scads and scads of books. Does that mean I'll have to dumb down my WIP
in order to get it looked at?
I mean, I've got vampires in mine. That's *got* to be worse than a
goblin or two.
Jim Cannon
Silvered Glass
wrote:
<snip>
>Heh. Although I've found that most of what the article says boggles me, I'll
>have to admit that I, too, usually start with a map. And even if I don't start
>with a map, I draw one fairly soon after beginning work on anything longer than
>5K words.
>
>A map *does* help me come up with culture, characters, subplots, and even other
>stories. I'm pretty sure it's a legacy of my gaming...I've learned to think in
>maps. But it sure as heck doesn't take two hours to come up with that! Two
>*days* for the basics (honorifics, if any, main religion of the protagonist's
>culture, local power structure), and some sketchy descriptions of various
>cities or buildings, maybe.
>
>And I like fantasy races.
Maps are a great deal of fun, particularly if one does 3D
projections and comes up with the topography and vegetation
at the same time. The geography rules out some things and
predicates others -- certain kinds of lifestyles are
incompatible with certain environments; certain environments
can't occur in certain places on the globe; cities tend to
be founded in certain places; certain places are militarily
valuable by reason of the geography. And so on.
I never start with a map; I always get a character first,
and then some basic ideas about the character's culture.
Then I sometimes move on to map-making, although I didn't
make a map of the setting of my work in progress. I would
have, if it included the conduct of a war or a natural
climate change, but it didn't seem necessary or desirable to
carve the landscape in stone before I'd worked out the plot,
as matters stand.
I don't know how long the worldbuilding took me, but it was
a lot longer than two hours. Indeed, it was longer than two
months, and I'm not finished yet, because I recently
discovered that I'm going to have to develop one of the
cultures in a lot more detail than I expected. I may try
public moaning about it soon if no inspiration strikes in
the meantime.
Cherith Baldry
>Like a lot of writers these days, Sara Douglas has some posted writing
>advice to her website.
Good Lord, is she being paid by the word?
Best regards,
Cherith
Silvered Glass
Cannon) wrote:
<snip>
>Now, I've actually tried to read one of her books. Normally I'm the
>type of person who will force himself to finish a book if he's paid
>for it; I even read _Wizard's First Rule_ all the way through, so you
>know I'm serious. Couldn't do that with _Wayfarer Redemption_, though.
>
>That which is disheartening is that, even though I disagree with
>almost everything in her essay (slamming science -- and not
>understanding science at all -- in particular), I know she has sold
>scads and scads of books. Does that mean I'll have to dumb down my WIP
>in order to get it looked at?
>
>I mean, I've got vampires in mine. That's *got* to be worse than a
>goblin or two.
I don't know. Yes, it's disheartening. I don't think I'm
going to bother attempting commercial publication -- I'm not
working in a commercial format anyway, at present. If I
were, I still don't know -- everything I've heard about the
industry suggests that I'd have to do my own marketing to
have any hope whatsoever of success, and everything I know
about me suggests that I'd hate marketing with a purple
passion.
Clay tablets. If I actually like my work in progress after
I've finished the second draft and aged it, I'll inscribe it
on clay, fire it, and bury a few copies here and there.
Long after all the paper bestsellers are unreadable, future
archaeologists can dig my stuff up and get an astonishingly
inaccurate picture of what life in 21st century America was
like. }:>
Dan Goodman
news:adt0jv$20hvf$1...@ID-78828.news.dfncis.de:
> Like a lot of writers these days, Sara Douglas has some posted writing
> advice to her website.
Spelling correction: Sara Douglass
> "Elves, goblins, dwarfs and dragons will virtually get a manuscript
> rejected on first sighting. There's a manuscript that has been going
> around the Australian publishing houses for the past 3 years. It's
> basically a very good manuscript, but it has a goblin on p. 49, and
> that's been its death knell with every publishing house thus far."
The author's _real_ mistake -- not submitting it in the US or UK. Both
those countries publish a lot more fantasy than Australia does.
> An acquaintence was wondering about it. He's finished a book with
> traditional fantasy races and is wondering if it will hurt his chances
> of getting published.
Short answer: Almost certainly not. However, _how_ he uses them will make
a difference.
Longer answer: If you want to know what is currently salable, first _look
at what's on bookshelves_ in stores. Every now and then, I read that Young
Adult books full of grim details and downbeat events are no longer salable.
I then take a look at my local Borders, and note that a high percentage of
YA books currently in print seem to contain exactly the elements which I've
just read would make a manuscript unpublishable.
Then look at what the publishers are selling. For fantasy and other
speculative fiction, a good place to find that information is in the print
edition of Locus. You might be able to find it in a library; the
Minneapolis Central Library carries it. If not -- any specialty sf
bookstore in your area will almost certainly have it. If you can't find it
locally, go to http://www.locusmag.com and you'll find information needed
to order a copy.
The June issue lists forthcoming books through March 2003. Looking through
the listings by publisher -- in the A's and B's alone, there are at least
twenty-seven with standard fantasy races. There's probably more I didn't
spot, because I don't know what those authors usually write.
Then look to see what the publishers are now _buying_.
information will be in the form [writer] sold [book title/book not yet
titled/trilogy of which one has a title] to [editor] at [publisher] --
usually also including: through [agent/agency]. If you know what that
writer usually writes, you know that kind of book is still salable.
Dan Goodman
news:UgpM8.263$n82....@news.abs.net:
> She
> keeps mentioning that supernatural creatures are "cute." They are?!
Sure. Ever read about a troll, ghoul, or werewolf who wasn't cute?
> Is he aiming for the U.S. market or an overseas market? Sara Douglas'
> experience is in the Australian fantasy market, which might have
> different demands. Many of the fantasies published in the U.S. still
> have fantasy races.
She's been published in the US and UK. It's quite possible that someone
else handled those sales.
Dan Goodman
news:B92840FF.71A9%T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk:
> Well, I'm fascinated to know how you can deduce the religion,
> structure of a society and the form of government from looking at a
> landscape.
Simple! Notice that there are 97 cathedrals dedicated to Jorp the
Frogslayer, with a bordello attached to each. That gives you a start at
deducing the religion.
Every 13.5871 kilometers, there's a Royal Office of Correct Thinking. That
tells you something about the government. Note that some of these Royal
Offices are in the middle of large rivers; and one is on an active volcano.
It's obvious that following the rules (in this case, the one mandating how
far apart these Offices are) is more important than considerations of
practicality.
Elizabeth Shack
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>In article <lto4gusl9mad0g67e...@4ax.com>,
>ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
>
><quoting Sara Douglass>
>
>I still say this /has/ to be a piss-take. However, I just
>wanted to note that this:
>
>> all you have to do is create a map, that is, create a
>>landscape ... and that landscape will then present to you
>>the types and numbers of races, the structures of their
>>societies, what is important in their lives and how they
>>live their lives. It also give you religions, gods, systems
>>of magic, government ... whatever. Even the myths that
>>stretch back into the unseen past. The landscape itself
>> will give you the rest. "
>
>is not quite as daft as it sounds. Not quite. If you settle
>down to cosmology, geology, paleontology, factor in a change
>or two of climate, work out a basic ecology, and *then* draw
>a map, it *will* give you most of the above things. Although
>you have to cheat a little by working out the eco-system in
>parallel with the map. And you do need the cosmology to give
>you the gods-and-governments side of thing.
In less than two hours? :) I've spent two years and I've only got a
map because I stole it from the East Coast.
But I've got elves and a non-medieval society, so it won't get
published anyway. (She must really hate urban fantasy.)
I really dislike prescriptive how-to-write articles, especially when
they're orthogonal to the way I work or to my attitude (she said the
first draft is the hardest part and the revision is fun. hah.). Or
when they're completely loony and inconsistant.
--
Elizabeth Shack eas...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~eashack/life.html
"You don't have anything except books." -- a friend who helped me move
Brian M. Scott
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>In article <lto4gusl9mad0g67e...@4ax.com>,
>ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
><quoting Sara Douglass>
>I still say this /has/ to be a piss-take. However, I just
>wanted to note that this:
>> all you have to do is create a map, that is, create a
>>landscape ... and that landscape will then present to you
>>the types and numbers of races, the structures of their
>>societies, what is important in their lives and how they
>>live their lives. It also give you religions, gods, systems
>>of magic, government ... whatever. Even the myths that
>>stretch back into the unseen past. The landscape itself
>> will give you the rest. "
>is not quite as daft as it sounds. Not quite. If you settle
>down to cosmology, geology, paleontology, factor in a change
>or two of climate, work out a basic ecology, and *then* draw
>a map, it *will* give you most of the above things.
Elizabeth Moon told a friend of mine that for the Paksenarrion books
she began with the geology of the river that forms the geographical
backbone of the stories. I doubt that this gave her the races and
cultures, but I suspect that it did contribute greatly to the reality
of setting, the sense of place, of those books.
[...]
>However, when she says:
>> " I sit down and take a half an hour to draw freehand, and
>>without any planning, a map of a land.
>she's potty.
Oh, you could probably do it if you knew enough about geography.
[...]
>I even did cute orcs.
>Mary
>they were _cute,_ okay?
For a sufficiently Gentle definition of 'cute'. (Actually, they were.
I wonder what that says about *me*.)
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>on 8/6/02 6:27 pm, Silvered Glass at silvere...@mail.comCLIPME wrote:
[...]
>> She's kidding. She's *got* to be kidding.
>Ah, that is a possible explanation. I just assumed she was a blithering
>idiot.
She's the second coming of Robert Jordan, but less readable. (And she
has no ear for names whatsoever.)
[...]
Brian
Ross Smith
>
> and that was when I was drawing up the map for the bible for
> _Villains,_ a shared-world anthology I co-edited way back in
> the Jurassic. However, the *point* of _Villains_ was that it
> was set in Fantasy Cliché Land. The idea of doing this with
> a straight face... oy. And vey.
It wasn't until some time after I'd read both books that I took a good
look at the maps and realised that _Grunts!_ was set in the same world
as _Villains_.
--
Ross Smith ..................................... Auckland, New Zealand
r-s...@ihug.co.nz ...................................................
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in large numbers."
-- Serious Sam
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> > In article <vmp4gusbt1mocpvsh...@4ax.com>,
> > ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
> > > On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:01:47 +0200, Boudewijn Rempt <bo...@valdyas.org>
wrote:
> > > > What I want to know is whether she _submits_ her stuff in that
> > > > font... It takes the concept of readability to a whole new plane of
> > > > hell.
> > >
> > > you can't have hell. it's filled with imps, and they're
> > > cute.
> >
> > Of course they are.
>
> I was reading this to my wife; she doesn't see anything wrong with cute
> ... in her words: "Cute can be an advantage -- there's nothing more
> startling than something that's so cute that you just have to reach out
> and pet it and go 'oh, how _cute_' and it bites your hand off at the
> wrist."
I know of an AD&D character who died from failing her saving throw
versus cuteness. . . .
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Dreams are not lost, they merely fall beneath the ashes of what is left
To the soul from where it starts to where it catches.
- "Matter," Josh Joplin Group
Darth Vader
(in message <adtt4s$os1$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk>):
> In article <vmp4gusbt1mocpvsh...@4ax.com>,
> ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:01:47 +0200, Boudewijn Rempt
>> <bo...@valdyas.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What I want to know is whether she _submits_ her stuff in
>> that font...
>> It >takes the concept of readability to a whole new plane
>> of hell.
>>
>> you can't have hell. it's filled with imps, and they're
>> cute.
ObSF: GRR Martin's hellkittens. They're cute. They're furry. They're
pitiable. They spit poisonous acid at your eyes with deadly accuracy.
>
> Of course they are.
>
> Is it my mind, or has there actually been a Disney's _Dante?_
> I can see it so *very* clearly... <g>
It's called 'DisneyWorld'... if you're a worker there.
--
I find your lack of piety... disturbing.
Mary K. Kuhner
>Bits I *particularly* disliked where
>> It is also, even for most Australian writers, a northern hemisphere world,
>> where January and February are cold and snowy, and June and July are hot.
>> Why? I am often asked ... well, mostly because we're forced to by the
>> expectation of our readership.
_Dragonlance_, which has to be right up there in the annals of EFP,
is set in the southern hemisphere of its world. Makes a point of
it, in fact, emphasizing the frozen south and torrid north.
>>Like most fantasy authors, I almost always use a clone of the
>>western European medieval world as a template.
This puts me in mind of my family's explanation for why Storm
Troopers fight so much more poorly than Clone Warriors: copy of
a copy syndrome. It's not going to *be* a clone of medieval
Europe (a very diverse place temporally and spatially); it's
going to be an nth generation recopy.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Mary K. Kuhner
>That which is disheartening is that, even though I disagree with
>almost everything in her essay (slamming science -- and not
>understanding science at all -- in particular), I know she has sold
>scads and scads of books. Does that mean I'll have to dumb down my WIP
>in order to get it looked at?
Tell yourself firmly that the argument "Bad books sell; therefore
good books will not sell" is a fallacy (which it is). All kinds
of book sell, including some very non-dumbed-down ones. _Clouds
End_ sold. _The King's Peace_ sold (and it's a first novel!)
And particularly, just because someone can write a book which sells
does not mean that s/he is an authority on what kinds of books
sell; and it *really *doesn't make her an authority on kinds that
*don't* sell. At most, she knows that she and a few people she know
haven't been able to sell them (in Australia). And given this
website, it may be that there's a reason for that....
There's a niche for big EFP novels, but it would be silly to assume
that that niche is the whole market. Obviously there are readers
who won't buy them, and if a publisher wants those readers' dollars
it had better publish some other books too. The publisher of
_Wizard's First Rule_ is also the publisher of _The King's Peace._
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Boudewijn Rempt
>>Fantasy over the past few years has become increasingly darker, and I
>>don't think that has any other reason for it than the fact that the
>>market was over-stocked with the cute-Tolkien would-bes.
>
> Has anyone else found this? I'd say it has become more realistic, which
> is a Good Thing.
>
I've noticed this too (although I might be wrong), but I think it's a Bad
Thing. I don't care about Realistic (as far as environment goes that is, I
do want real people) and I don't like dark, myself. I don't need to be
shown how unpleasant it is to live in a pre-techonological society -- I
know already.
And a gritty, realistic dark fantasy where the author makes clear that war
is awful, battle terrible, disease horrible and people brutal is getting to
be just as much a cliche as the noble heroes riding in to their fresh, fun
war.
Er, that was rather close to a rant. I think it just boils down to this: I
don't like the equation dark == realistic == good versus light ==
unrealistic == bad.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> That which is disheartening is that, even though I disagree with
> almost everything in her essay (slamming science -- and not
> understanding science at all -- in particular), I know she has sold
> scads and scads of books. Does that mean I'll have to dumb down my WIP
> in order to get it looked at?
Look, if I wanted to get rich doing a job that bored me out of my skull,
I'd have gone into accountancy. My father and my grandfather both got
rich that way.
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> is not quite as daft as it sounds. Not quite. If you settle
> down to cosmology, geology, paleontology, factor in a change
> or two of climate, work out a basic ecology, and *then* draw
> a map, it *will* give you most of the above things. Although
> you have to cheat a little by working out the eco-system in
> parallel with the map. And you do need the cosmology to give
> you the gods-and-governments side of thing.
>
> I did this with Orthe, ages back, and I wrote an article
> about it for which I've lost the URL... ah well. And that
> was science fiction, so I suppose It Doesn't Count. :)
A guy I know did this. He has a web site up that goes to incredible
lengths to detail how you do it. When I read it, I felt really wretched
for a while because to me it spoke of incredibile time and dedication
spent on the backgroud, all things I hand't done at all (allright, since
I write mostly about things happening on different _planets_, maps
don't come in so helpful).
Then his book came out and... ok, I was only able to read about fifty
pages of it, it being obviously not my cup of tea, but readers
complained _bitterly_ about the background: you went on so much about
the different races and what's to distinguish them in the novel, the
fact that you _said_ that so-and-so belong to that race? And when your
guys (and they're only guys) travel, they see a lot of deserts,
mountains and trees, and that's all the description we get, do you call
that background?
The author admitted that since that was his first book and written a
long time ago it wasn't the best he's produced, but all in all, my sense
of guilt was much lessened.
By that time I had worked out that our approach to the subjects were
different: he has a bottom-up approach, where he has to work out all the
groundwork beforehand, while I have a top-down approach, where I have a
plot and characters and work out what they see and what they know while
the go about their business. I don't think either is an intrinsically
better way of doing things, but mine seems more suited to my personality
- that is, requires a lot less work.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <adtt4s$os2$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk>,
> mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk says...
>
> > I did this with Orthe, ages back, and I wrote an article
> > about it for which I've lost the URL... ah well. And that
> > was science fiction, so I suppose It Doesn't Count. :)
>
> http://www.rastus.force9.co.uk/SB5Gentle.html do you?
Stored for consultatin when the caffeine level goes up.
Yesterday, rendered incapable of movement by six hours with the Gay
Pride Parade, many of those spent hoisting (hoisting?) a piece of wood
keeping up the Amnesty banner and photographing people like mad (yes,
very good time, thank you) I watched a long documentary about the Middle
Ages, a lot less trashy than saying it like this makes it sound, and a
large part of it was spent into the Stibbert Museum in Florence,
(http://www.vps.it/propart/stibbert.htm), and as a result I thought
_intensely_ about you, Mary.
If you ever come to Italy, we should go and have a look at it together.
Tim S
<Snortle!>
Well, this has a rather Stone Soup sound to it, to my mind.
Besides which, it's a hell of a map that is large-scale enough to show
individual sub-parts to buildings (like the bordello section of the
cathedral) but is big enough to show 97 cathedrals and multiple examples of
something spaced at a distance of 13.5871 kilometers. Say, 100 miles x 100
miles at 25 inches to the mile, this is not your average tabletop. And you
must be a bloody fast draughtsman if you can fill it in in 2 hours.
Tim
Peter Knutsen
Jim Bayers wrote:
>
> Like a lot of writers these days, Sara Douglas has some posted writing
> advice to her website. Here is an excerpt that had us talking:
>
> "Elves, goblins, dwarfs and dragons will virtually get a manuscript rejected
> on first sighting. There's a manuscript that has been going around the
> Australian publishing houses for the past 3 years. It's basically a very
> good manuscript, but it has a goblin on p. 49, and that's been its death
> knell with every publishing house thus far."
>
> An acquaintence was wondering about it. He's finished a book with
> traditional fantasy races and is wondering if it will hurt his chances of
> getting published.
>
> Here is the link to the article which I found useful:
>
> http://www.saradouglass.com/epic.html
Get your cheap ass of the WWW and go purchase "How to write Fantasy
and Science Fiction" by Orson Scott Card. Yes, I know it costs
money, but it's a billion times better than Sara Douglas' "advice".
The ban on using traditional fantasy genre species is there
because many authors assume it's a "free ride". They think that
they can just write "At the corner, I saw two Elves loitering",
and the reader will immediately know what an Elf is. But the
reader will not, can not, because there are Tolkien Elves and
Celtic Elves and D&D Elves and Shadowrun Elves and all sorts of
other Elves that are radically different from each other, and
the reader can't know what kind of Elves the author is writing
about if all the author writes is "Two Elves".
(Note that Sara Douglas states a different reason, which is wrong).
This means that the ban isn't against using traditional fantasy
genre species at all, but against unthinkingly using them, and/or
using them because you think it'll make your job easier.
The correct way to use traditional fantasy genre species is to
think very hard about them, and define their capabilities, to
think their capabilities through (e.g. deduce the logical
consqeunces of having four-digit lifespans, a low birth rate and
no fear of disease whatsoever) and to write in such a way that
the reader gets informed about the properties of each species
along with the narrator.
--
Peter Knutsen
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
>
> Get your cheap ass of the WWW and go purchase "How to write Fantasy
> and Science Fiction" by Orson Scott Card. Yes, I know it costs
> money, but it's a billion times better than Sara Douglas' "advice".
That's not hard, but I wasn't really impressed by OSC's book.
Catja Pafort
> I wanna know how I'm supposed to DO fantasy worlds if I'm not allowed
> to have fantastic creatures in them. If magic exists, presumably the
> ecology incorporates some aspect of that...
Most of my worlds don't have magical beings. They might have the odd
ghost or two, The Nemesis has someone who is close to a Nazgul (and,
despite solemn vows to ignore it, I've just had two more characters walk
on stage - in a cottage somewhere in the countryside, for heaven's sake,
and *no* idea how they even fit into the story); and I've got one
fragment with Elves and Dwarfs that are central to the story.
Oops, forgot the one with hordes of demons. I don't like to think about
them <g>. And the short story with the dragon.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't care *what* you use, as long as they're
portrayed realistically and have a place in your narrative.
I pick well executed before 'poor but avoiding established themes' any
day.
Catja
Catja Pafort
> On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 13:27:23 -0400, Silvered Glass
> <silvere...@mail.comCLIPME> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 06:25:50 -0700, "Jim Bayers"
> ><te...@test.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >>Here is the link to the article which I found useful:
>
> >>http://www.saradouglass.com/epic.html
>
> ><choking noises>
>
> [...]
>
> >I was going to comment on the rest of the article, but I
> >agree with almost nothing in it and I strongly suspect the
> >whole thing of being an exercise in leg-pulling. I won't
> >swear to this, given the oddness of opinions it's possible
> >to find online, but ...
>
> On the page from which it's linked she says that it's from a talk
> given to her local Shakespeare Society and that it's 'a bit silly',
> but this appears to refer more to the presentation and some of the
> details than to the substance: her more serious page on the same
> subject is at <http://www.saradouglass.com/createw.html> and says much
> the same things.
>
> I now have some idea of why I found _The Wayfarer Redemption_ almost
> unreadable.
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
Boudewijn Rempt
> Of course they are.
>
> Is it my mind, or has there actually been a Disney's _Dante?_
> I can see it so *very* clearly... <g>
>
Thank you very much. Now I won't get a winks sleep tonight, I'm
sure. I don't know which would be worse, their version of Hell or
their version of Paradise; I am fairly sure that they will try to
skip Purgatory because they can't even begin to get a glimpse of
an idea what to do with it. (Actually taking time, real time, to
gain something; making an actual, well, _effort_, to improve. That
should be a completely alien concept.)
Boudewijn Rempt
> Sea Wasp wrote:
>
>> I wanna know how I'm supposed to DO fantasy worlds if I'm not
>> allowed
>> to have fantastic creatures in them. If magic exists, presumably the
>> ecology incorporates some aspect of that...
>
> Most of my worlds don't have magical beings. They might have the odd
> ghost or two, The Nemesis has someone who is close to a Nazgul (and,
> despite solemn vows to ignore it, I've just had two more characters walk
> on stage - in a cottage somewhere in the countryside, for heaven's sake,
> and *no* idea how they even fit into the story); and I've got one
> fragment with Elves and Dwarfs that are central to the story.
>
> Oops, forgot the one with hordes of demons. I don't like to think about
> them <g>. And the short story with the dragon.
>
No has my world. There's just gods and ghosts, but a ghost is a dead person
who hasn't become a god yet. And dragons are either meat or saddle animals,
according to their age. Nothing magic to that.
Boudewijn Rempt
> Heh. Although I've found that most of what the article says boggles me,
> I'll have to admit that I, too, usually start with a map. And even if I
> don't start with a map, I draw one fairly soon after beginning work on
> anything longer than 5K words.
>
Oh, maps are nice. Maps are good. Maps are addictive. I started, fifteen
years ago, with a simple A4 sheet of paper with a vague kidney-shaped
continent on it. Within five years I had a map A0 map drawn on transparent
paper, to make -- I think they're called photolithos.
And for the the WIR I've done maps on house-level for all the important
quarters of the city where there's some action. And the emperor's palace is
mapped to the last pillar.
Of course, when I actually wrote the scenes happening in those places, I had
to whip out a pencil, and make emendations, in order to have my narrative
work.
Alma Hromic Deckert
Pafort) wrote:
>I pick well executed before 'poor but avoiding established themes' any
>day.
>
Amen
A.
Dan Goodman
> on 9/6/02 1:56 am, Dan Goodman at dsg...@visi.com wrote:
>
>> Tim S <T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:B92840FF.71A9%T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk:
>>
>>> Well, I'm fascinated to know how you can deduce the religion,
>>> structure of a society and the form of government from looking at a
>>> landscape.
>>
>> Simple! Notice that there are 97 cathedrals dedicated to Jorp the
>> Frogslayer, with a bordello attached to each. That gives you a start
>> at deducing the religion.
>>
>> Every 13.5871 kilometers, there's a Royal Office of Correct Thinking.
>> That tells you something about the government. Note that some of
>> these Royal Offices are in the middle of large rivers; and one is on
>> an active volcano. It's obvious that following the rules (in this
>> case, the one mandating how far apart these Offices are) is more
>> important than considerations of practicality.
>
> <Snortle!>
>
> Well, this has a rather Stone Soup sound to it, to my mind.
>
> Besides which, it's a hell of a map that is large-scale enough to show
> individual sub-parts to buildings (like the bordello section of the
> cathedral)
That's done with symbols; one meaning "Cathedral of Jorp the Frogslayer"
and another meaning "bordello".
Dan Goodman
news:3D035121...@knutsen.dk:
> Get your cheap ass of the WWW and go purchase "How to write Fantasy
> and Science Fiction" by Orson Scott Card. Yes, I know it costs
> money, but it's a billion times better than Sara Douglas' "advice".
>
Another option: go to _useful_ websites. http://www.sfwa.org has links to a
number of writing sites.
And -- pick a writer whose work you like, track down their website, and see
if it contains writing advice.
Helen
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> writes
>
>On the page from which it's linked she says that it's from a talk
>given to her local Shakespeare Society and that it's 'a bit silly',
>but this appears to refer more to the presentation and some of the
>details than to the substance: her more serious page on the same
>subject is at <http://www.saradouglass.com/createw.html> and says much
>the same things.
>
"Neither magic nor adventuring quests can be believably set in a modern,
logical and scientific world (while science fiction can). We cannot
believe in fantasy or magic in our scientific world -- we're not allowed
to."
Um, oh dear. If that were true then a couple of my novels on the To
Write pile are total no-hopers. And the short story I'm half way
through. And the story I sold to Marion Zimmer-Bradley's FANTASY
magazine. Er, just a minute. Did I say "sold"?
Then there's Diana Wynne Jones and Philip Pullman and Alan Garner and
Pamela Dean and even J K Rowling, who all use magic in our world. And
that's just a few names off the top of my head.
Quote on creating the fantasy world:
"Where do you start? Draw a map!"
This might work for some. For me I can't draw a map up front; I need to
have explored the terrain first in terms of what I need for the
incidents and what kind of area my characters came from. This advice,
followed unthinkingly, would produce the kind of Fantasyland map
satirised by Diana Wynne Jones in Tough Guide.
Quote on magic:
"The system of magic. Fantasy worlds are magical worlds, and generally
have systems of magic."
This sounds far to RPG to me. I'm sure some writers can make this
approach work, but for me the magic in my fantasy world isn't a
"system", it's an organic part of the world.
>I now have some idea of why I found _The Wayfarer Redemption_ almost
>unreadable.
>
>[...]
>
>Brian
I haven't read this. I won't bother even trying. Her advice seems far
too formulaic. Or perhaps it's a Cunning Plan to reduce the
competition?
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
Helen
Deckert <ang...@earthlink.net> writes
[Snip insightful comments.]
>
>"The first and most obvious of these is that fantasy books not only
>come in thick, but they also come in series of 3, 6, 9 or 13."
>
>mine was 2.
Mine is 5.
>
>i seem to be doign EVERYTHING wrong...
>
>A.
>
Me too... :-)
Alma Hromic Deckert
<ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>In article <lto4gusl9mad0g67e...@4ax.com>, Alma Hromic
>Deckert <ang...@earthlink.net> writes
>
>[Snip insightful comments.]
>>
>>"The first and most obvious of these is that fantasy books not only
>>come in thick, but they also come in series of 3, 6, 9 or 13."
>>
>>mine was 2.
>
>Mine is 5.
yes, but at least that IMPLIES the 3. i haven't even made the bare
minimum <g>
>>
>>i seem to be doign EVERYTHING wrong...
>Me too... :-)
>
heh. i'll draw YOUR map if you'll draw mine...
A.
Thomas Lindgren
ada...@libero.it (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) writes:
> Look, if I wanted to get rich doing a job that bored me out of my skull,
> I'd have gone into accountancy. My father and my grandfather both got
> rich that way.
Though these days there seems to be a more piratical air about
accountancy. Is it mere coincidence that those tax havens are found in
the Carribean?
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
I'd rather write programs that write programs than write programs-[R. Sites]
WooF
speak of four-book trilogies, three-book trilogies -- even
one-book trilogies.
George H Scithers of owls...@netaxs.com
Alma Hromic Deckert
>
>ada...@libero.it (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) writes:
>
>> Look, if I wanted to get rich doing a job that bored me out of my skull,
>> I'd have gone into accountancy. My father and my grandfather both got
>> rich that way.
>
>Though these days there seems to be a more piratical air about
>accountancy. Is it mere coincidence that those tax havens are found in
>the Carribean?
heh. well, there's an accountant around these parts who rejoices in
the name of Michael Crooke. i'd think that with a name like that a
career in accountancy would not have been entirely the wisest of
choices...
A.
patricia bowne
>
> >> all you have to do is create a map, that is, create a
> >>landscape ... and that landscape will then present to you
> >>the types and numbers of races, the structures of their
> >>societies, what is important in their lives and how they
> >>live their lives. It also give you religions, gods, systems
> >>of magic, government ... whatever. Even the myths that
> >>stretch back into the unseen past. The landscape itself
> >> will give you the rest. "
Am I the only one here who really dislikes maps in fantasy books? I feel
the same way about glossaries -- that this information should be made
obvious in the text, and that the reader shouldn't be expected to do
background research and cross-referencing in order to read fiction.
There's nothing that bugs me more than having to go back to the
frontispiece to figure out where the action is now, because the author
hasn't made it clear enough in the story. And I should be able to figure
out the meaning of foreign words from their context, or be led to
fruitfully misunderstand them from their context. That's one place where
the skill of writing comes in, isn't it?
I suppose a map might be a useful tool for world building, but I worry
about depending too much on something whose inclusion would (IMO) mar
the final product. It seems more sensible to me to make my background
notes in text form, which can then be used in the book or story without
too much alteration.
Pat
Stewart Robert Hinsley
>these years. i'm now 40 000 words into my new epic, and i still
>haven't drawn a map. funny, though - my culture, my myths, my
>language, my races (well i'm content with one race - the human one -
>in this book...) are all there, and are there in spades. and no, it
>didn't take me half an hour to do it. it didn't even take me two hours
>to do it. in fact, i'm still doing it - reading up, jotting down,
>looking at books, notes, scribbles. building the world is half of
>writing my book. half an hour?... two hours?... jeez, i wish i knew
>what i was doing wrong. i could have finished this book a week ago if
>i'd just done things the map way.
>
The last bit of worldbuilding that I did
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Worlds/Dis/ArcticSeaCoast.html
took rather more than 2 hours, and that's only a little bit of the
world.
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Worlds/Dis/Dis.html
(And I already had the map; this was just writing down - and making up
some of - the ethnography, economics, etc.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
>"Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> wrote in
>news:UgpM8.263$n82....@news.abs.net:
>
>> She
>> keeps mentioning that supernatural creatures are "cute." They are?!
>
>Sure. Ever read about a troll, ghoul, or werewolf who wasn't cute?
"Here, boy, here, boy! Good do--er, werewolf."
vlatko
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/
http://www.michaelswanwick.com/
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>I did this with Orthe, ages back, and I wrote an article
>about it for which I've lost the URL... ah well.
http://www.rastus.force9.co.uk/SB5Gentle.html
"Machiavelli, Marx And The Material Substratum
Creating Worlds for Fun and Profit
The Truth About Orthe"
BTW, do I see it right? There will be marygentle.org?
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<ang...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>i seem to be doign EVERYTHING wrong...
Well, now we are going to come and take your writing licence away for
a month.
Lucky for you it's just the first offence. :-)
Blech, I do remember someone else claiming that everything starts with
a map.
vlatko (got disheartened from writing about the tavern and decided to
do a picture instead)
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>Is it my mind, or has there actually been a Disney's _Dante?_
>I can see it so *very* clearly... <g>
With that merry, cheery, cute song on the soundtrack:
"Please allow me to introduce myself,
I'm a man of wealth and taste ..."
Sung by Atomic Kitten or Celine Dion, of course, not Guns'n'Roses or
Stones.
vlatko
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
Or read on the site. Patricia's excellent "Fantasy Worldbuilding
Questions", for instance.
Brooks Moses
Who said the map was drawn to scale? :)
- Brooks
Helen
Deckert <ang...@earthlink.net> writes
>>
>heh. i'll draw YOUR map if you'll draw mine...
>
>A.
For the very first version of the Grandfather's Axe of a novel I did do
a map. But I've abandoned it now. I do do sketch maps when required.
I have a very scribbly sketch map of the capital city which I did to
keep the action straight in the whodunit. I also, at one point, did a
floor plan of Elen's house, again for purposes of sorting out the
action. But I don't *start* with a map.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> ada...@libero.it (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) writes:
>
> > Look, if I wanted to get rich doing a job that bored me out of my skull,
> > I'd have gone into accountancy. My father and my grandfather both got
> > rich that way.
>
> Though these days there seems to be a more piratical air about
> accountancy. Is it mere coincidence that those tax havens are found in
> the Carribean?
Yeah, that's what my father darkly says about our current Minister of
Finances. "He's an _accountant_".
Alma Hromic Deckert
<ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>For the very first version of the Grandfather's Axe of a novel I did do
>a map. But I've abandoned it now. I do do sketch maps when required.
>I have a very scribbly sketch map of the capital city which I did to
>keep the action straight in the whodunit. I also, at one point, did a
>floor plan of Elen's house, again for purposes of sorting out the
>action. But I don't *start* with a map.
>
me neither. i'm 40 000 words into the WIP, and the only extant map of
my (non-existent, purely fantasy) land is still within my head...
A.
Brian M. Scott
<ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> wrote:
>In article <3d0254d7....@enews.newsguy.com>, Brian M. Scott
><b.s...@csuohio.edu> writes
[...]
>>I now have some idea of why I found _The Wayfarer Redemption_ almost
>>unreadable.
>I haven't read this. I won't bother even trying. Her advice seems far
>too formulaic. Or perhaps it's a Cunning Plan to reduce the
>competition?
<snort> Let me put it this way: I found Robert Jordan more readable,
and the first Goodkind novel was a gem by comparison.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<pbo...@myexcel.com> wrote:
[...]
>Am I the only one here who really dislikes maps in fantasy books? I feel
>the same way about glossaries -- that this information should be made
>obvious in the text, and that the reader shouldn't be expected to do
>background research and cross-referencing in order to read fiction.
The map is not a substitute for the text, but an addition to it. One
can construct an excellent set of maps from the text of LotR, but as a
reader I prefer not to have to go to the trouble. And while I read
maps very comfortably, I can't visualize worth a damn, so I *really*
appreciate good maps.
>There's nothing that bugs me more than having to go back to the
>frontispiece to figure out where the action is now, because the author
>hasn't made it clear enough in the story. And I should be able to figure
>out the meaning of foreign words from their context, or be led to
>fruitfully misunderstand them from their context. That's one place where
>the skill of writing comes in, isn't it?
Of course. But that doesn't mean that a glossary isn't useful or
desirable, especially if it includes information that goes beyond the
text (as in the case of Tolkien's appendices).
[...]
Brian
Catja Pafort
> "Trilogy" has become a strange generic term. Any more, people
> speak of four-book trilogies, three-book trilogies -- even
> one-book trilogies.
What, like Ash?
<g,d&r>
C.J. Cherryh's 'Cyteen' was a one-book trilogy - one book, too thick,
split into three, which made for a very poor second volume, IIRC. Tad
Williams 'Memory, Sorrow and Thorn' was published in three hardbacks,
four paperbacks - a four-book trilogy. And the Hitchhiker's Guide, of
course, just went on - I *think* it's referred to as 'Trilogy in five
parts.'
Catja
Brian Pickrell
> Tim S <T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> news:B92840FF.71A9%T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk:
>
> > Well, I'm fascinated to know how you can deduce the religion,
> > structure of a society and the form of government from looking at a
> > landscape.
>
> Frogslayer, with a bordello attached to each. That gives you a start at
> deducing the religion.
>
Yeah, it also explains why there aren't more frogs in this country.
Pyrephox
>Oh, maps are nice. Maps are good. Maps are addictive.
Tell me about it. *glares over at the Book O' Worlds--thick notebooks filled
with maps for gaming worlds that never got used (but still get updated whenever
I get bored)*
>And for the the WIR I've done maps on house-level for all the important
>quarters of the city where there's some action. And the emperor's palace is
>mapped to the last pillar.
For writing, I generally only do this when it's absolutely necessary, since I'm
not as fond of building maps. Like if the characters are infiltrating a
building, or if someone needs to overhear something, or one time to plot an
assassin's escape route. I find that if I *don't* map in these cases, I get
the dreaded Magical Moving Room/Door syndrome, because I don't visualize
buildings very well.
Although, maps can be a trap too. On a couple of occassions, to my chargin,
I've stopped all work on a story in favor of drawing maps of places that will
never be used and have no bearing on anything.
Pyrephox
Brian D. Fernald
news:B92840FF.71A9%T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk...
> on 8/6/02 10:32 pm, mary_...@cix.compulink.co.uk at> > ang...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) wrote:
> >
> > <quoting Sara Douglass>
> >
> > I still say this /has/ to be a piss-take. However, I just
> > wanted to note that this:
> >
> >> all you have to do is create a map, that is, create a
> >> landscape ... and that landscape will then present to you
> >> the types and numbers of races, the structures of their
> >> societies, what is important in their lives and how they
> >> live their lives. It also give you religions, gods, systems
> >> of magic, government ... whatever. Even the myths that
> >> stretch back into the unseen past. The landscape itself
> >> will give you the rest. "
> >
> > down to cosmology, geology, paleontology, factor in a change
> > or two of climate, work out a basic ecology, and *then* draw
> > a map, it *will* give you most of the above things. Although
> > you have to cheat a little by working out the eco-system in
> > parallel with the map. And you do need the cosmology to give
> > you the gods-and-governments side of thing.
>
> Well, I'm fascinated to know how you can deduce the religion, structure of
a
> hills? It must be a constitutional monarchy." "Mountains means
pantheists."
> "A dense coniferous forest is an infallible sign of an Omaha-style kinship
> system." There's no end to the fun you could have.)
>
If a place is near the coast, it is likely that the people living there are
seafaring. If people are seafaring, it is likely that they will worship a
sea god.
If a place is in the mountains, they may likely worship a Lord of the
High Places...
It could be done.
Worldbuilding can be a matter of process. A process started by
drawing a map can be just as good as anything else.
(I frequently start worldbuilding by thinking in terms of latitude and
longitude, but then the trees that adorn the landscape are important
to me.)
--
Brian F.
FSOBN.
<snip>
Jouni Karhu
Didn't the fifth book have "The fifth volume in the increasingly
inaccurate Hitchhiker's Guide trilogy" on its cover?
// JJ
Patricia C. Wrede
<ken...@baradel.demon.co.uk.please.delete.this> writes:
>"Neither magic nor adventuring quests can be believably set in a modern,
>logical and scientific world (while science fiction can). We cannot
>believe in fantasy or magic in our scientific world -- we're not allowed
>to."
>
>Um, oh dear. If that were true then a couple of my novels on the To
>Write pile are total no-hopers. And the short story I'm half way
>through. And the story I sold to Marion Zimmer-Bradley's FANTASY
>magazine. Er, just a minute. Did I say "sold"?
>
>Then there's Diana Wynne Jones and Philip Pullman and Alan Garner and
>Pamela Dean and even J K Rowling, who all use magic in our world. And
>that's just a few names off the top of my head.
And Neil Gaiman's AMERICAN GODS is a figment of everybody's imagination, and
the whole steampunk movement doesn't exist, and...
Flapdoodle.
Patricia C. Wrede
Irina Rempt
>>"Neither magic nor adventuring quests can be believably set in a
>>modern, logical and scientific world (while science fiction can). We
>>cannot believe in fantasy or magic in our scientific world -- we're
>>not allowed to."
Note that she also says "we" (meaning, presumably, "I don't so you
shouldn't"). A sure way to piss me off and make me disbelieve anything
else the perpetrator says.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
Catja Pafort
> Am I the only one here who really dislikes maps in fantasy books?
I don't know. I'm a mapaholic. Cartography has long since been a hobby
of mine; and the easiest way to keep me occupied is to hand me a
detailed map. I'll probably not speak to you for a couple of hours, but
you might decide that it's worth it ;-)
> I feel
> the same way about glossaries -- that this information should be made
> obvious in the text, and that the reader shouldn't be expected to do
> background research and cross-referencing in order to read fiction.
If the information is vital to the text, I would agree; But sometimes -
especially in the course of large epics, especially if they're published
over time, I find it comfortable to jog my memory by looking things. A
glossary should be at the end of a book, not the beginning. A 'list of
characters' in the beginning always spoils things a little for me. I
don't want an abstract. I want to read a story.
If I'm looking to buy a book, the map might fascinate me (although, like
the wheel of time, that can be misleading); or it might put me off, like
the one in Terry Brooks that has 'Northland. Southland. Eastland.
Westland.' on it. If the author has *that* little imagination, I won't
bother to read the book.
Catja
Zeborah
> "Trilogy" has become a strange generic term. Any more, people
> speak of four-book trilogies, three-book trilogies -- even
> one-book trilogies.
"Any more" used to be only useable in negative constructions, she
grumbles. (I like language change, I think it's very cute, it's just
this one always makes me have to look at the sentence two or three times
to figure out what's going on.) Where exactly is this used, anyway?
Zeborah
--
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz2000
I'm writing a book. I've got the page numbers done. -- Steven Wright
Zeborah
> Yeah, that's what my father darkly says about our current Minister of
> Finances. "He's an _accountant_".
One of the (IMHO) more evil politicians in New Zealand built his
political career out of exposing a Big Bad Tax Haven Conspiracy in the
Cook Islands. The resultant "Winebox Inquiry" went on for years, and
every time I think it's finished something new will pop up in the news
about it.
There are worse creatures than accountants...
Geoff Wedig
> If I'm looking to buy a book, the map might fascinate me (although, like
> the wheel of time, that can be misleading); or it might put me off, like
> the one in Terry Brooks that has 'Northland. Southland. Eastland.
> Westland.' on it. If the author has *that* little imagination, I won't
> bother to read the book.
Well, my map isn't *quite* that bad, but most of the names in the Duchies of
the Green are fairly simple English words and phrases. This is because when
the Great War ended, the people who were left didn't want to use the names
that had been given them by their departed oppressors. They therefore chose
names that had meanings they wanted to keep. Some are directly related to
efforts in the war (Mountainfast, Haven, Justice, Victory), some are from
geography (Delta, River Run), some are from political reasons (White, Upper
Green, Lower Green, New Duchy) and some are for mythological reasons
(Sparrow).
This trend in naming is continued in the upper classes, who use favorable
traits as public names, and have 'hidden' private names (the private names
are not common words, nor are they strictly hidden, as they're matter of
public record, but most people don't know or use them) Again, the reason
for this split comes from a time when conspiracy against the oppressors
meant hiding your identity from them.
Most of this is unlikely to be explained quite so overtly in the text.
Luckily, there are other lands which do not use such customs, and therefore
it should be clear that the naming conventions in the Duchies are not simply
a lack of writerly imagination.
Geoff
Anna Mazzoldi
In article <ifi7gu8q4b7cjqvgh...@4ax.com>, Alma
Hromic Deckert <ang...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I *had* maps, many years ago, that refer to what is now the WIP
(and was something rather different back then). Sketchy map of
the land (coastline + major cities, roads and rivers), sketchy
map of the city, detailed map of the sprawling house where the
protagonist lives (I like drawing house maps).
Now, of course, they are all wrong. That's ok for now: I have the
really important details in my head. Before I start the second
draft, though, I'll have to redraw the city map (and possibly the
map of the land, though it won't be any more detailed). I think
it will help me visualise the setting better, and one of the
things I have to do in the second draft is make the whole thing
more "visible". (Also a good cat-hoovering project, of course,
though strictly it might not fit the definition because I think
will be genuinely useful.)
I really don't think the map will be needed in the published
book, though. I'm in two minds on whether it would be neat or
not. In the end, anyway, it'll probably be down to the
publisher's desires: and I don't mind. (As a reader, I rarely
look at the maps much: but I know that there are readers who find
them more interesting/enjoyable than I do, so I'm not at all
averse to giving *them* my city map.)
Ciao,
Anna
--
Anna Mazzoldi writing from Dublin, Ireland
"You look like Billie Holiday with a hibiscus flower
on her ear, except it's a purple orangutan." --Laurence
Suzanne Palmer
> heh. i'll draw YOUR map if you'll draw mine...
Now there's an interesting thought -- having a map exchange... (-:
If nothing else, it would be an interesting exercise writing a story
based in a map that came from someone else as a way of getting a
clearer idea how much of one's narrative process is map-driven...
-Suzanne
Brian M. Scott
>WooF <owls...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>> "Trilogy" has become a strange generic term. Any more, people
>> speak of four-book trilogies, three-book trilogies -- even
>> one-book trilogies.
>"Any more" used to be only useable in negative constructions, she
>grumbles. (I like language change, I think it's very cute, it's just
>this one always makes me have to look at the sentence two or three times
>to figure out what's going on.) Where exactly is this used, anyway?
It's called 'positive anymore' in the literature and is synonymous
with 'nowadays'. According to the linguist John Lawler:
The distribution of positive "anymore" is only vaguely
geographic; mostly it's social dialects -- speech groups
not necessarily distinguished by location -- that show it.
And just about everybody in the US speaking English has
encountered it. It's a natural extension of the meaning of
negative "anymore", and it can occur to anybody
independently -- it need not have had a single source.
<http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/anymore.html>
Brian
Lois Tilton
> Quote from the link above.
> "Neither magic nor adventuring quests can be believably set in a modern,
> logical and scientific world (while science fiction can). We cannot
> believe in fantasy or magic in our scientific world -- we're not allowed
> to."
I gather she hasn't heard about religion.
--
LT
Joann Zimmerman
green...@cix.co.uk says...
> pat bowne wrote:
>
> > Am I the only one here who really dislikes maps in fantasy books?
>
> I don't know. I'm a mapaholic. Cartography has long since been a hobby
> of mine; and the easiest way to keep me occupied is to hand me a
> detailed map. I'll probably not speak to you for a couple of hours, but
> you might decide that it's worth it ;-)
What She Said. Could Catja and I have been separated at birth, or is the
age difference too great? (Surely there is an SFnal solution to this
little problem ...)
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Neil Barnes
news:1fdj9kf.9tmvx99d67iqN%ada...@libero.it:
> Thomas Lindgren <***@***.***> wrote:
>
>> ada...@libero.it (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) writes:
>>
>> > Look, if I wanted to get rich doing a job that bored me out of my
>> > skull, I'd have gone into accountancy. My father and my grandfather
>> > both got rich that way.
>>
>> Though these days there seems to be a more piratical air about
>> accountancy. Is it mere coincidence that those tax havens are found
>> in the Carribean?
>
> Yeah, that's what my father darkly says about our current Minister of
> Finances. "He's an _accountant_".
>
ObMontyP:
It's fun to charter an accountant,
And sail the wide accountansea...
--
I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost...
barnacle
http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
Dan Goodman
news:1fdk9dj.13zzda8p4jg7yN%zebo...@mac.com:
> WooF <owls...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>
>> "Trilogy" has become a strange generic term. Any more, people
>> speak of four-book trilogies, three-book trilogies -- even
>> one-book trilogies.
>
> "Any more" used to be only useable in negative constructions, she
> grumbles. (I like language change, I think it's very cute, it's just
> this one always makes me have to look at the sentence two or three times
> to figure out what's going on.) Where exactly is this used, anyway?
It's used regularly in some parts of the US. (Sometimes used in other
parts.) I don't know what the boundaries of that area are, but I suspect
it overlaps the area in which people say things like "The car needs
washed."
Irina Rempt
> zebo...@mac.com (Zeborah) wrote in
> news:1fdk9dj.13zzda8p4jg7yN%zebo...@mac.com:
>> "Any more" used to be only useable in negative constructions, she
>> grumbles. (I like language change, I think it's very cute, it's just
>> this one always makes me have to look at the sentence two or three
>> times
>> to figure out what's going on.) Where exactly is this used, anyway?
>
> It's used regularly in some parts of the US. (Sometimes used in other
> parts.) I don't know what the boundaries of that area are, but I
> suspect it overlaps the area in which people say things like "The car
> needs washed."
And "already" meaning "right now"?
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
<bfer...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>If a place is near the coast, it is likely that the people living there are
>seafaring.
Er, no. Well, yes, but, really, no. There are villages on Croatian
islands, situated in the middle of island usually, where people never
set the foot into the sea they could see from their fields and
vineyards. And when I'm talking about seeing, it's something like an
hour's walk distance.
vlatko
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/
http://www.michaelswanwick.com/
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
James Wallis
<T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk> writes
>Besides which, it's a hell of a map that is large-scale enough to show
>individual sub-parts to buildings (like the bordello section of the
>cathedral) but is big enough to show 97 cathedrals and multiple examples of
>something spaced at a distance of 13.5871 kilometers. Say, 100 miles x 100
>miles at 25 inches to the mile, this is not your average tabletop.
If you're not intending for the map to be printed on paper then I can
recommend Campaign Cartographer 2 from Profantasy Software
(www.profantasy.com) and its various add-ons, including City Designer.
Designed for RPGs and based on a licensed CAD engine, it creates
scalable and very attractive maps. CC2 was the software used for the
Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas (Wizards of the Coast).
Caveat: we share an office with Profantasy Software, and therefore may
be biased about their excellent products.
--
James Wallis
Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Posting this from his home address (ja...@erstwhile.demon.co.uk)
Dan Goodman
news:1184569.W...@calcifer.valdyas.org:
> On Monday 10 June 2002 18:53 Dan Goodman wrote:
>
>> zebo...@mac.com (Zeborah) wrote in
>> news:1fdk9dj.13zzda8p4jg7yN%zebo...@mac.com:
>
>>> "Any more" used to be only useable in negative constructions, she
>>> grumbles. (I like language change, I think it's very cute, it's just
>>> this one always makes me have to look at the sentence two or three
>>> times
>>> to figure out what's going on.) Where exactly is this used, anyway?
>>
>> It's used regularly in some parts of the US. (Sometimes used in other
>> parts.) I don't know what the boundaries of that area are, but I
>> suspect it overlaps the area in which people say things like "The car
>> needs washed."
>
> And "already" meaning "right now"?
That I don't know.
Erol K. Bayburt
> In article <vmp4gusbt1mocpvsh...@4ax.com>,
> > On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:01:47 +0200, Boudewijn Rempt
> ><bo...@valdyas.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >What I want to know is whether she _submits_ her stuff in
> >that font...
> > It >takes the concept of readability to a whole new plane
> >of hell.
> >
> > you can't have hell. it's filled with imps, and they're
> >cute.
>
> Of course they are.
>
> Is it my mind, or has there actually been a Disney's _Dante?_
> I can see it so *very* clearly... <g>
I'm inspired to a Cinquenta:
The High King came to the wizard Yensid: "Great wyrms have overrun the
land. Save us, or we will all perish."
"My wizardry has limits. Should even one wyrm survive..."
Yet Yensid had cunning as well as power. He cast a subtle curse.
Afterwards, all dragonkind perceived humans as *cute*.
--
Erol K. Bayburt
Ero...@aol.com
Wilson Heydt
This thread is the first time that I've encountered either of those
constructions. (That I'm aware of, anyway.)
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist
>has no ear for names whatsoever.)
>
I'm fairly new to the group, so I fear I must ask. What's so terrible about
Robert Jordan? I'm -=terribly=- fond of his work, personally, and I find his
world to be very realistic, engrossing, etcetera...
why this omnipresent despise of him? He's a very competent author. . . and
stuff.
Although his work is fairly long, it feels like he knows what he's doing.
_______________________
~wonkycyber/ANDREW Ingle
afu no movie akio -- with his Planeterium Playset!
http://members.tripod.com/~dark_revolution/ -- The Dark Revolution
"Isn't it surrealistic and good?" ~Suzaku, Yuu Yuu Hakusho
Geoff Wedig
> In article <B9290C15.7204%T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk>, Tim S
> <T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Besides which, it's a hell of a map that is large-scale enough to show
>>individual sub-parts to buildings (like the bordello section of the
>>cathedral) but is big enough to show 97 cathedrals and multiple examples of
>>something spaced at a distance of 13.5871 kilometers. Say, 100 miles x 100
>>miles at 25 inches to the mile, this is not your average tabletop.
> If you're not intending for the map to be printed on paper then I can
> recommend Campaign Cartographer 2 from Profantasy Software
> (www.profantasy.com) and its various add-ons, including City Designer.
> Designed for RPGs and based on a licensed CAD engine, it creates
> scalable and very attractive maps. CC2 was the software used for the
> Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas (Wizards of the Coast).
> Caveat: we share an office with Profantasy Software, and therefore may
> be biased about their excellent products.
I use this and am very happy with it. Essentially a CAD package with lots
of (mainly fantasy) specific add ons. I've had a lot of success doing my
mapping. It generally takes longer than pen and paper, but is far more
satisfying.
Geoff
Darkhawk (H. Nicoll)
> I'm fairly new to the group, so I fear I must ask. What's so terrible about
> Robert Jordan? I'm -=terribly=- fond of his work, personally, and I find his
> world to be very realistic, engrossing, etcetera...
I'm fed up with him at the moment because all his female characters are
the same person with different hair colour. And because nothing
happened in the last book of his I read.
(I'll probably read the rest of them, on the same principle as my
father: if I don't, they win. But I'm not buying any more hardcovers.)
--
Heather Anne Nicoll - Darkhawk - http://aelfhame.net/~darkhawk/
Dreams are not lost, they merely fall beneath the ashes of what is left
To the soul from where it starts to where it catches.
- "Matter," Josh Joplin Group
Mary K. Kuhner
wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist <v9cyb...@aol.comMiracle> wrote:
>I'm fairly new to the group, so I fear I must ask. What's so terrible about
>Robert Jordan? I'm -=terribly=- fond of his work, personally, and I find his
>world to be very realistic, engrossing, etcetera...
Speaking only for myself (various people on the newsgroup give
different reasons) I can't get past his portrayal of men and women.
I felt, when I read _The Great Hunt_, that he really only had one
male and one female character, despite all attempts to give them
individual personalities. I didn't like his archetypal Man or
Woman, which left me with no characters I liked anywhere in
the story. (I'd have been deeply grateful for a POV dog or alien
or monster.)
I also found something about the whole tone and set of the story
stifling. The Wheel of Time concept itself was part of this, but
also the similarities among cultures and among people of very
different backgrounds. It just felt...small. Too small to be
worth living in even vicariously, especially for ten books. It's
a world with magic, but the magic is very bounded, it's just one
thing and that one thing is well understood. Fate is understood;
people can tell you its rules. I don't know if this quality
continued into the later books or not, but it bothered me greatly
in _Hunt_ and I've never felt any motivation to pick up the others.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>>> WooF <owls...@netaxs.com> wrote:
The 'it needs washed' construction is common in central and western
Pennsylvania, and it's been reported in central Illinois, central
Missouri, and parts of the Pacific Northwest, at least. A New Zealand
linguist says that it's normal Scottish English and occasionally heard
in NZ, probably because of the Scottish settlements.
Brian
oneironaut....@gmx.net
> wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist <v9cyb...@aol.comMiracle> wrote:
> > I'm fairly new to the group, so I fear I must ask. What's so terrible about
> > Robert Jordan? I'm -=terribly=- fond of his work, personally, and I find his
> > world to be very realistic, engrossing, etcetera...
>
> I'm fed up with him at the moment because all his female characters are
> the same person with different hair colour. And because nothing
> happened in the last book of his I read.
>
> (I'll probably read the rest of them, on the same principle as my
> father: if I don't, they win. But I'm not buying any more hardcovers.)
My method is to have a friend who really likes Jordan, and will tell me
about all the good bits at length so that I don't have to read him
myself.
It's that last bit of my plan that could prove to be a problem. I
haven't broken the news yet.
--Squid
oneironaut....@gmx.net
There's someone who posts regularly to rasfc who uses constructions like
the latter, and I'm completely failing to remember who it is. I believe
there is a G involved.
--Squid, memory like a goldfish, did I mention that?
oneironaut....@gmx.net
> In article <1fdk5w6.ktgiw01or1egkN%green...@cix.co.uk>,
> green...@cix.co.uk says...
> > pat bowne wrote:
> >
> > > Am I the only one here who really dislikes maps in fantasy books?
> >
> > I don't know. I'm a mapaholic. Cartography has long since been a hobby
> > of mine; and the easiest way to keep me occupied is to hand me a
> > detailed map. I'll probably not speak to you for a couple of hours, but
> > you might decide that it's worth it ;-)
>
> What She Said. Could Catja and I have been separated at birth, or is the
> age difference too great? (Surely there is an SFnal solution to this
> little problem ...)
ObIt'sAllAboutMe: The Hero of the WIP is surprised to learn that Arunir
and her sister are twins, because Arunir appears to be pushing thirty,
whereas her sister looks about eighteen. (Actually, he's kind of
surprised to learn that they're even related; they're /extremely/
fraternal.) But that's not a chronology thing, it's a rate-of-aging
thing. Do you find your parents equivocating about your date of birth?
Baby photos inexplicably sepiatone?
(It occurs to me that I'm using you poor bastards as a sounding board of
sorts to reassure myself that I'm still interested in the WIP, which I
do appear to be from the way I'm obsessing about it, while I struggle
through this dry spell. I hope nobody minds. Or, rather, nobody had
better mind.)
--Squid