Cover Ideas Wanted
David Friedman
coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject still
makes it an appropriate question to put here.
The book's current title is Future Imperfect: Technology and an
Uncertain World." Its basic thesis is that the future is radically
uncertain, that technologies currently in progress could lead to a
strikingly more or less attractive, more or less free, more or less
private, world than we now live in, with possible outcomes ranging from
the elimination of our species within the next century to the conversion
of humans to near gods. The book goes through a lot of possible
technological revolutions based off different technologies, and what
their consequences might be.
The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
Ideas?
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Sean O'Hara
declared:
>
> The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
> but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>
How about a guy dressed similarly-to-but-legally-distinct-from a
Starfleet officer cowering behind the door of his car, the interior
of which looks like a sci-fi spaceship, while being menaced by a guy
who looks like a Borg except his implants include an iPod on his
arm, a bluetooth headset, a laser-pointer finger, etc.
--
Sean O'Hara <http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com>
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not
certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
--Albert Einstein
Brenda Clough
> In the Year of the Golden Pig, the Great and Powerful David Friedman
> declared:
>
>>The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
>>technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
>>nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
>>but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>>
>
>
> How about a guy dressed similarly-to-but-legally-distinct-from a
> Starfleet officer cowering behind the door of his car, the interior
> of which looks like a sci-fi spaceship, while being menaced by a guy
> who looks like a Borg except his implants include an iPod on his
> arm, a bluetooth headset, a laser-pointer finger, etc.
>
These details will be essentially invisible, without a
magnifying glass.
This question is so totally posted in the wrong newsgroup. You
do NOT go to writers for a visual concept. (Why do you think
that publishers resist giving the author cover control? Or pay
art directors salaries?) The suggestions you get here will be
too literary, too wordy, too 'thinky'. For a cover you need a
single vivid image that is easily taken in at one glance -- the
equivalent of the babe in the brass bra with a sword.
That being said, I will supply an image. Vanna White, turning
the letters, which spell THE FUTURE. Her smile should be malicious.
Brenda
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
"A Mighty Fortress"
http://www.helixsf.com
Dan Goodman
> I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
> coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject
> still makes it an appropriate question to put here.
>
> The book's current title is Future Imperfect: Technology and an
> Uncertain World." Its basic thesis is that the future is radically
> uncertain, that technologies currently in progress could lead to a
> strikingly more or less attractive, more or less free, more or less
> private, world than we now live in, with possible outcomes ranging
> from the elimination of our species within the next century to the
> conversion of humans to near gods. The book goes through a lot of
> possible technological revolutions based off different technologies,
> and what their consequences might be.
>
> The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is
> appropriate, but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>
> Ideas?
Scenes from two of more possible futures. A news page showing, for
example, the shocking news that Chicago had three murders the previous
year -- authorities vow to deal with this crime wave. Another showing
nonhuman archeologists digging up Chicago.
--
Dan Goodman
"You, each of you, have some special wild cards. Play with them.
Find out what makes you different and better. Because it is there,
if only you can find it." Vernor Vinge, _Rainbows End_
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Futures http://dangoodman.livejournal.com
mirror: http://dsgood.insanejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Kevin J. Cheek
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
>technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
>nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
>but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>
>Ideas?
A man and a woman peer into a screen. They are the epitome of human
form. There are just enough technical trappings to their clothes and
the screen that it's obvious they are in a high-tech age.
Peering out from the screen is another couple, analogous to the first.
Except they're the exact opposite. Crude. Barbaric. Their bodies
warped in disturbing ways. It's obvious that they, too, dwell either
in a high-tech age or the remains of one.
It's not clear from the artwork which couple is on the screen.
If that's too busy, how about a play on the two hands drawing each
other. One hand is human, the other robotic.
- Kevin J. Cheek
Bill Swears
> The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
> but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>
> Ideas?
>
and above, so we can see the the doors are labeled "the future" and we
can see what is behind the doors. 1. A mini mushroom cloud, 2. a robot
killing the scientist, 3. scientist holding bridge of nose, while office
furniture floats free of the floor, 4. Scientist and nuclear family with
little dog, all in 1930s style future suits, waving good by to their
oldest offspring a offspring walks toward a buck rogers rocket.
Bill
Thomas Lindgren
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes:
> I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
> coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject still
> makes it an appropriate question to put here.
>
> The book's current title is Future Imperfect: Technology and an
> Uncertain World." Its basic thesis is that the future is radically
> uncertain, that technologies currently in progress could lead to a
> strikingly more or less attractive, more or less free, more or less
> private, world than we now live in, with possible outcomes ranging from
> the elimination of our species within the next century to the conversion
> of humans to near gods. The book goes through a lot of possible
> technological revolutions based off different technologies, and what
> their consequences might be.
>
> The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
> but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>
> Ideas?
Traveller on top of cliff, setting out down a road into a misty valley.
On the other side, heaven and hell (or suitable variations thereof).
Numerous passionate prophets on soap boxes, sceptical onlooker.
Graph: Random walks originating from 'now', ending up all over the
right end of the page. Perhaps even with pedagogical labels, but
that's probably overdoing it. (Or start at the center with labeled
quadrants?)
Montage of stylized possible outcomes, six or so to the page. With
some warning for the cheese factor, I'd enjoy seeing portraits of the
author in various garbs and backgrounds.
Or maybe a branching 'descent-of-man' thing, ending up here and there.
The timespan covered might be too short for that to be appropriate,
though.
Terminator style: from inside of car, highway lit by headlights
disappearing into the night.
A head-and-shoulders shot of an attractive, smiling woman that is
nearly, yet clearly not, human. Might need an experienced hand to get
the photoshop just right.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren "It was all very mechanical -- but
that's the way planetside life is." -- RAW
Gerry Quinn
dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com says...
> I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
> coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject still
> makes it an appropriate question to put here.
>
> The book's current title is Future Imperfect: Technology and an
> Uncertain World." Its basic thesis is that the future is radically
> uncertain, that technologies currently in progress could lead to a
> strikingly more or less attractive, more or less free, more or less
> private, world than we now live in, with possible outcomes ranging from
> the elimination of our species within the next century to the conversion
> of humans to near gods. The book goes through a lot of possible
> technological revolutions based off different technologies, and what
> their consequences might be.
>
> The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
> but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
At centre stage is a signpost, the pointers unreadable but made of
different materials/technologies; they point towards distant vignettes
such as gigantic arcologies, virtual worlds, inundated cities, third-
world slums, space stations, battlefields, whatever.
- Gerry Quinn
Tina Hall
> I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
> coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject
> still makes it an appropriate question to put here.
> [...] The book goes through a lot of possible technological
> revolutions based off different technologies, and what their
> consequences might be.
Sounds useful for writers. I'm certainly interested.
> The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is
> appropriate, but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
How about a branching construct (not a proper tree but like one)
depicting the various possible futures, with little icons next to the
branches? (You then may need suggestions for the various technologies'
icons, but stylyzed graphs may not be that difficult, perhaps building
on the source icons of the today technology at the root. That way the
developement could be visually followed.)
You could do the crystal ball as a very faint backround of that, even.
--
Tina
WIP: [Untitled]: 1517 words
WISuspension: Seasons & Elements trilogy | Magic Earth series
Posted to Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition.
Catja Pafort
> This question is so totally posted in the wrong newsgroup. You
> do NOT go to writers for a visual concept. (Why do you think
> that publishers resist giving the author cover control? Or pay
> art directors salaries?) The suggestions you get here will be
> too literary, too wordy, too 'thinky'. For a cover you need a
> single vivid image that is easily taken in at one glance -- the
> equivalent of the babe in the brass bra with a sword.
'Image' is a completely different language. My take on David's problem
is a signpost of the Irish kind, with many arms pointing in many
different directions, each of them saying 'Future' - only one is crude
wood and handpainted, another one slick metal, a third all edgy and
psychedelic...
What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic novels start
- with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the above?
Catja
--
writing blog @ http://beyond-elechan.livejournal.com
David Friedman
<1i6ngh1.1c5jzy8ifxnd7N%green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid>,
green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote:
> 'Image' is a completely different language. My take on David's problem
> is a signpost of the Irish kind, with many arms pointing in many
> different directions, each of them saying 'Future' - only one is crude
> wood and handpainted, another one slick metal, a third all edgy and
> psychedelic...
>
Thanks. I'm not sure it would work, but it sounds more plausible than
any of my ideas.
David Friedman
Tina...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
> > coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject
> > still makes it an appropriate question to put here.
>
> > [...] The book goes through a lot of possible technological
> > revolutions based off different technologies, and what their
> > consequences might be.
>
> Sounds useful for writers. I'm certainly interested.
An almost current, almost final draft is webbed for comments at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Future_Imperfect.html
Catja Pafort
> green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote:
>
> > 'Image' is a completely different language. My take on David's problem
> > is a signpost of the Irish kind, with many arms pointing in many
> > different directions, each of them saying 'Future' - only one is crude
> > wood and handpainted, another one slick metal, a third all edgy and
> > psychedelic...
> >
>
> Thanks. I'm not sure it would work, but it sounds more plausible than
> any of my ideas.
You're welcome, although I think Brenda is right. Experienced artists
have a much better handle on how to fit those thousand words into their
pictures. There's a whole universe of meaning that I can't even
decipher, and an experienced cover artist will know what works for a
book. The more I learn about art, the more I am convinced that I
couldn't produce a good cover...
David Friedman
<1i6nk13.1j8plmoeto0sgN%green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid>,
green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote:
> You're welcome, although I think Brenda is right. Experienced artists
> have a much better handle on how to fit those thousand words into their
> pictures. There's a whole universe of meaning that I can't even
> decipher, and an experienced cover artist will know what works for a
> book. The more I learn about art, the more I am convinced that I
> couldn't produce a good cover...
>
Yes.
As I think I've commented before, the cover for _Harald_ got a lot of
details wrong, but it successfully communicated more of the feel of the
book than I think any of my ideas would have.
Andrew Stephenson
green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid "Catja Pafort" writes:
> What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic
> novels start - with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the
> above?
String measuring time. In WATERLOO SUNSET, our artist had had an
image or two, without explanations or much story. When I came on
board, I worked in terms of ideas to fill in the gaps and develop
the back story, world, story, characters, events. Then, being an
image manipuilator too, I wrote it with images and ideas in mind.
Then our artist drew it, making his *koff* adjustments. Then the
readers got hold of it; and Ghod No Wot went through their heads.
--
Andrew Stephenson
Tina Hall
> Tina...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>>> I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should
>>> be coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the
>>> subject still makes it an appropriate question to put here.
>>
>>> [...] The book goes through a lot of possible technological
>>> revolutions based off different technologies, and what their
>>> consequences might be.
>>
>> Sounds useful for writers. I'm certainly interested.
> An almost current, almost final draft is webbed for comments at:
> http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Future_Imperfect.html
Cool. (And here I thought I had to wait for a dead tree version.) Will
definitely have a look.
--
Tina
WIP: [Untitled]: 2349 words
Brenda Clough
>
> What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic novels start
> - with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the above?
>
> Catja
>
>
You have answered your own question. The writer, of her very
nature, begins with the idea and the words and the characters
and the plot. The image, everything visual, is the job of the
artist.
Brenda Clough
It is an instructive exercise to create the cover for one's own
book. I did this. It looked terrible, not at all like what the
actual novel was about. The very few purchasers would have been
grievously disappointed.
Catja Pafort
> green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid "Catja Pafort" writes:
>
> > What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic
> > novels start - with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the
> > above?
>
> String measuring time. In WATERLOO SUNSET, our artist had had an
> image or two, without explanations or much story. When I came on
> board, I worked in terms of ideas to fill in the gaps and develop
> the back story, world, story, characters, events. Then, being an
> image manipuilator too, I wrote it with images and ideas in mind.
Can you unpack the last sentence a bit more?
Sigh. I've got an idea that wants to be a graphic novel. It would take a
lot of work to turn into a novel, and my to-write-queue is too long as
it is. (Finish duology. Write two volumes of trilogy. Write
archaeological excavation of Faerie. Write foreign legion murdery
mystery. Slip in another volume of Valendon's Diary when nobody is
looking.)
On the other hand, it would give direction to playing with 3D software
and I can see it being good fun. Given that I have no experience
whatsoever of graphic novels, that is probably not a good idea, but I
will do *something* with this.
I am looking forward to a certain amount of cross-fertilisation in my
writing. I mean, thinking hard about what needs to be shown in an image
to give the perfect impression of a place/situation can only be helpful
for me, right?
Two more questions: what can you do in a graphic novel that is hard or
impossible in a written narrative? And what can you do when writing
linear text that feels klutzy and horrible in a graphic novel?
> Then our artist drew it, making his *koff* adjustments. Then the
> readers got hold of it; and Ghod No Wot went through their heads.
How long was the whole thing? I've got an idea how many words you need
to tell a comprehensive story, but how much room did you need/want for
your graphic novel?
Bill Swears
>
> You have answered your own question. The writer, of her very nature,
> begins with the idea and the words and the characters and the plot. The
> image, everything visual, is the job of the artist.
>
> Brenda
>
>
Bill
Tina Hall
> As I think I've commented before, the cover for _Harald_ got a lot of
> details wrong, but it successfully communicated more of the feel of
> the book than I think any of my ideas would have.
To me as a reader the wrong details always grated, it was a cheat. Like
a jar of Nutella with peanut butter inside, or rather, peanut butter on
the label, with Nutella inside. The wrong stuff on the cover (what isn't
in the story) could well have kept me from buying a book the content of
which I might have liked, I'd have thought 'yuk' and moved on.
Same with blurbs. There's at least one book I used to like that I would
actively have _not_ bought for cover and blurb, but as it was I ordered
it without knowing either. (I say this because blurb and cover is
supposed to attract readers, not repell them.)
There was no feel of the book on the cover, either. I don't think there
ever is, it's just a scene, objects and characters as they are at some
point in the story, and that better be accurate.
(That's not touching covers that have just some... I don't know what on
the cover, I'm thinking of some of Iain M. Banks' covers, I can't
remember a single one of them, only that they're black with something
white on it. Not very telling. Perhaps that's better, as then it isn't
wrong either.)
Catja Pafort
> Catja Pafort wrote:
>
> >
> > What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic novels start
> > - with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the above?
> >
> >
>
>
>
> You have answered your own question. The writer, of her very
> nature, begins with the idea and the words and the characters
> and the plot. The image, everything visual, is the job of the
> artist.
I am, grumble, both, and I am not an artist by a long stretch, I just
play one in 3D.
David Friedman
Tina...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> > As I think I've commented before, the cover for _Harald_ got a lot of
> > details wrong, but it successfully communicated more of the feel of
> > the book than I think any of my ideas would have.
>
> To me as a reader the wrong details always grated, it was a cheat. Like
> a jar of Nutella with peanut butter inside, or rather, peanut butter on
> the label, with Nutella inside. The wrong stuff on the cover (what isn't
> in the story) could well have kept me from buying a book the content of
> which I might have liked, I'd have thought 'yuk' and moved on.
You wouldn't have known it was the wrong stuff until you read the book,
however. Unless you looked very closely and realized that the lamellar
armor was upside down--which requires both specialized knowledge and
realizing that it is supposed to be lamellar, not scale.
Brian M. Scott
<clo...@erols.com> wrote in <news:WcMUi.719$%r.269@trnddc01>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Catja Pafort wrote:
>> What I'd like to know is where the people who write
>> graphic novels start - with an idea? An image? Text? Or
>> all of the above?
> You have answered your own question. The writer, of her
> very nature, begins with the idea and the words and the
> characters and the plot. The image, everything visual,
> is the job of the artist.
I believe that some of the folks here writing non-graphic
novels have mentioned starting with visual images; I doubt
that it's *less* common for graphic novels.
Brian
Andrew Stephenson
green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid "Catja Pafort" writes:
> Andrew Stephenson wrote:
>
> > green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid "Catja Pafort" writes:
> >
> > > What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic
> > > novels start - with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the
> > > above?
> >
> > String measuring time. In WATERLOO SUNSET, our artist had had an
> > image or two, without explanations or much story. When I came on
> > board, I worked in terms of ideas to fill in the gaps and develop
> > the back story, world, story, characters, events. Then, being an
> > image manipuilator too, I wrote it with images and ideas in mind.
>
> Can you unpack the last sentence a bit more?
Think of each frame in the comic as the printed counterpart of an
animated cartoon's "key frames", where an action alters motion in
the Newtonian sense. Something starts, stops, pauses, whatever.
The writer (in a "fully scripted" comic) has to think about where
the action is moving. Ideally the writer should not be dictating
to the artist; they should have worked out what the main moves of
the story are, if only to agree on the principal elements' looks-
and-feels. Partners on a project should be even closer. OTOH if
you are doing work-for-hire (eg, for the Big Two publishers), you
may just be a cog in the mechanism; but, even then, you'll become
involved as issues of the title appear, with your input affecting
everything at least a bit. Whatever the setup, the writer should
try to anticipate the artist's needs. The artist may want to cut
up the single frame into several for artistic reasons, or just to
be egotistical (it happens); but you are not to know in advance.
So I tried to visualise every frame, even after breaking down the
actions (cf, action descriptions in non-visual stories), speeches
(cf, dialogue) and captions (cf, framing text) into what belonged
at the same moment of exposure to the story. A frame is rarely a
literal snapshot, if only because time passes when characters say
their dialogue. There may be additional conventional devices, to
convey actions (eg, speed lines when things whoosh past). Frames
are, in a weird way, not where much important stuff happens; that
often sits _between_ frames -- you jump from "before" to "after".
> Sigh. I've got an idea that wants to be a graphic novel. It would take a
> lot of work to turn into a novel, and my to-write-queue is too long as
> it is. (Finish duology. Write two volumes of trilogy. Write
> archaeological excavation of Faerie. Write foreign legion murdery
> mystery. Slip in another volume of Valendon's Diary when nobody is
> looking.)
>
> On the other hand, it would give direction to playing with 3D software
> and I can see it being good fun. Given that I have no experience
> whatsoever of graphic novels, that is probably not a good idea, but I
> will do *something* with this.
It's a different medium, just as (say) films, TV, stage and radio
differ from text-based fiction. Ideas are often conveyed by very
different means, likewise effects and moods. Each medium has its
own strengths and weaknesses, as is well known.
> I am looking forward to a certain amount of cross-fertilisation in my
> writing. I mean, thinking hard about what needs to be shown in an image
> to give the perfect impression of a place/situation can only be helpful
> for me, right?
Well, yes. However, conveying passage of time is different. The
reader's awareness of surroundings and perception of truth can be
played with. Skilled practitioners can achieve amazing results.
But there are practical limits. A writer working with plain text
can say, "...and all the armies of the Dark Lord's realm came out
upon the plains that day, arrayed in sinister finery, marching in
rank and file, numberless, bewildering, roaring hatred for goodly
customs, stinking of the remains of former prey which adorned the
cruel armour and weaponry they wore..." and get away with it (um,
apart from the over-writing). A comics writer who asks an artist
to draw all of that had better have life insurance. A big mental
gear-shift is called for. Limitations must be recognised, worked
around. But compensatory freedoms become possible, if the artist
and writer are both on form. (Actually, the result also presumes
any others involved know their business: eg, colourist, letterer,
inker (if different from the penciller who draws the raw images),
post-production person (scanning images into computer files, then
adjusting them for size/squareness/scale/colour_values/&c).)
Oh yes, and you usually have an exact amount of space to fill: no
more, no less, than N pages. It is like scripting TV/radio/film,
but with pages, not time, as the limitation.
> Two more questions: what can you do in a graphic novel that is
> hard or impossible in a written narrative?
Lots. Not just in graphic novels BTW. "GN" is basically a novel
done as a comic. Comics in general have their own language. Now
extrapolate from that.
> And what can you do when writing linear text that feels klutzy
> and horrible in a graphic novel?
Hard to synopsise. Off-hand: anything that becomes monotonous or
unconvincing as an image. OTOH learning how to do the impossible
is part of the game.
> > Then our artist drew it, making his *koff* adjustments. Then the
> > readers got hold of it; and Ghod No Wot went through their heads.
>
> How long was the whole thing? I've got an idea how many words you need
> to tell a comprehensive story, but how much room did you need/want for
> your graphic novel?
Pages of text fiction convert to pages of comic at variable rate.
Reprinted as a Trade Paper Back it ran to 209 story pages. I say
it is an SF novel of average length in terms of content. Scripts
totalled 613.3KB. If it were a text novel, I'd divide that by 6,
giving a word count of 102Kww. But much of a script is all about
talking to the artist, describing things/scenery/actions...
Even dialogue doesn't map well from one to the other. The impact
of three frames (typically 3/5 of a page but frames/page vary) in
which a character hardly moves, saying something in #1 and #3, is
hard to translate into text equivalent. Or the other way: "...by
dusk, a dreadful stillness had descended, upon army and onlookers
alike, as each contemplated the doings of the day and what likely
lay ahead in the years to come..." does not call for any dialogue
but could be depicted variously, depending what you are trying to
achieve.
Sorry, had to rush. There are books on technique one may find in
a good library. Try Will Eisner's "Comics And Sequential Art" or
-- rats the name escapes me but there are several books on comics
writing which are well spoken of. HTH.
--
Andrew Stephenson
Tina Hall
> Tina...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>>> As I think I've commented before, the cover for _Harald_ got a lot
>>> of details wrong, but it successfully communicated more of the feel
>>> of the book than I think any of my ideas would have.
>>
>> To me as a reader the wrong details always grated, it was a cheat.
>> Like a jar of Nutella with peanut butter inside, or rather, peanut
>> butter on the label, with Nutella inside. The wrong stuff on the
>> cover (what isn't in the story) could well have kept me from buying
>> a book the content of which I might have liked, I'd have thought
>> 'yuk' and moved on.
> You wouldn't have known it was the wrong stuff until you read the
> book, however.
That's my point. I would never have known that it's different inside the
book, as I wouldn't have bought it.
> Unless you looked very closely and realized that the lamellar armor
> was upside down--which requires both specialized knowledge and
> realizing that it is supposed to be lamellar, not scale.
I'm talking about objects and characters that appear in the book
together. If there's a hero with a sword, and a shadowy figure behind
him peeking out of an alley, and in the book there's no such scene,
that's a cheat.
Or a half-naked blonde on the cover might have repelled me, when a
darkhaired, hooded figure (what the hero is actually like) might have
attracted me.
Not that that has anything to do with your cover, as I'm talking about
SF. (Never mind that I'm no longer buying SF.)
--
Tina
WIP: [Untitled]: 2989 words
Brenda Clough
It is the sweeping majority. Go and survey GNs in a comic book
store sometime.
The only great GN I can recall that was written and drawn by the
same person was THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS by Frank Miller.
David Friedman
Tina...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> > Tina...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> >> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> >>> As I think I've commented before, the cover for _Harald_ got a lot
> >>> of details wrong, but it successfully communicated more of the feel
> >>> of the book than I think any of my ideas would have.
> >>
> >> To me as a reader the wrong details always grated, it was a cheat.
> >> Like a jar of Nutella with peanut butter inside, or rather, peanut
> >> butter on the label, with Nutella inside. The wrong stuff on the
> >> cover (what isn't in the story) could well have kept me from buying
> >> a book the content of which I might have liked, I'd have thought
> >> 'yuk' and moved on.
>
> > You wouldn't have known it was the wrong stuff until you read the
> > book, however.
>
> That's my point. I would never have known that it's different inside the
> book, as I wouldn't have bought it.
>
> > Unless you looked very closely and realized that the lamellar armor
> > was upside down--which requires both specialized knowledge and
> > realizing that it is supposed to be lamellar, not scale.
>
> I'm talking about objects and characters that appear in the book
> together. If there's a hero with a sword, and a shadowy figure behind
> him peeking out of an alley, and in the book there's no such scene,
> that's a cheat.
But you can't avoid buying the book on account of that being a cheat,
since at the point you are deciding whether to buy you haven't yet read
the book and so don't know it's a cheat.
David Goldfarb
Andrew Stephenson <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Sorry, had to rush. There are books on technique one may find in
>a good library. Try Will Eisner's "Comics And Sequential Art" or
>-- rats the name escapes me but there are several books on comics
>writing which are well spoken of. HTH.
Scott McCloud's _Understanding Comics_ and _Making Comics_
spring to mind.
--
David Goldfarb | "No-one in the world ever gets what they want
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | And that is beautiful.
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | Everybody dies frustrated and sad
| And that is beautiful." -- TMBG
David Goldfarb
Brenda Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>The only great GN I can recall that was written and drawn by the
>same person was THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS by Frank Miller.
I take it you are not familiar with the work of Tezuka. Or
Scott McCloud, Herge, Eric Shanower, Carla Speed McNeil,
Phil Foglio...I could go on, but suffice to say that there
*are* plenty of people who can write as well as draw.
--
David Goldfarb |"Everyone generalizes from insufficient data.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | I know I do."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Steven Brust
Aqua
> In article <h2QUi.245$oy4.126@trnddc08>,
> Brenda Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>> The only great GN I can recall that was written and drawn by the
>> same person was THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS by Frank Miller.
>
> I take it you are not familiar with the work of Tezuka. Or
> Scott McCloud, Herge, Eric Shanower, Carla Speed McNeil,
> Phil Foglio...I could go on, but suffice to say that there
> *are* plenty of people who can write as well as draw.
Not to mention the more recent "arty" subgenre including _Fun Home_ and
_Persepolis_.
Aqua
E. Liddell
> In article <h2QUi.245$oy4.126@trnddc08>,
> Brenda Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>>The only great GN I can recall that was written and drawn by the
>>same person was THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS by Frank Miller.
>
> I take it you are not familiar with the work of Tezuka.
Or manga (Japanese comics) in general--I'd say something on the
order of 80-90% of those are both written and drawn by the same
person. (Or is it that you just don't qualify them as "great"?)
Andrew Stephenson
gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU "David Goldfarb" writes:
> In article <119351...@deltrak.demon.co.uk>,
> Andrew Stephenson <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Sorry, had to rush. There are books on technique one may find in
> >a good library. Try Will Eisner's "Comics And Sequential Art" or
> >-- rats the name escapes me but there are several books on comics
> >writing which are well spoken of. HTH.
>
> Scott McCloud's _Understanding Comics_ and _Making Comics_
> spring to mind.
They do ring bells. Ta.
--
Andrew Stephenson
Nicky
wrote:
> I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
> coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject still
> makes it an appropriate question to put here.
>
> Uncertain World." Its basic thesis is that the future is radically
> uncertain, that technologies currently in progress could lead to a
> strikingly more or less attractive, more or less free, more or less
> private, world than we now live in, with possible outcomes ranging from
> the elimination of our species within the next century to the conversion
> of humans to near gods. The book goes through a lot of possible
> technological revolutions based off different technologies, and what
> their consequences might be.
>
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
> but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>
>
> --
> http://www.daviddfriedman.com/http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Michelle Bottorff
> What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic novels start
> - with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the above?
_Scent of Spring_ and _Mark of the Beast_ started as dreams.
I think Black Flag started with me playing with a phonetic writing
system. But that was a long time ago, so I'm not really sure.
--
Michelle Bottorff -> Chelle B. -> Shelby
L. Shelby, Writer http://www.lshelby.com/
Livejournal http://lavenderbard.livejournal.com/
rec.arts.sf.composition FAQ http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html
Michelle Bottorff
> I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
> coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject still
> makes it an appropriate question to put here.
There is a doorway.
On one side we see the modern world (now). The other side is a
spacescape (future).
A man is stepping through the doorway from the now side, but instead of
seeing the rest of him stepping out into the future side, his leading
leg/arm etc disappear.
David Goldfarb
And Katie reminds me that I forgot _Maus_. I bang my head against the wall.
--
David Goldfarb |"Understanding is a three-edged sword."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Babylon 5, "Deathwalker"
Brenda Clough
No, it's that I'm cutting back on comics purchasing, because my
daughter is getting married and I need the money for
photographers & flowers.
Remus Shepherd
> Brenda Clough wrote:
> > This question is so totally posted in the wrong newsgroup. You
> > do NOT go to writers for a visual concept.
> 'Image' is a completely different language. My take on David's problem
> is a signpost of the Irish kind, with many arms pointing in many
> different directions, each of them saying 'Future' - only one is crude
> wood and handpainted, another one slick metal, a third all edgy and
> psychedelic...
> What I'd like to know is where the people who write graphic novels start
> - with an idea? An image? Text? Or all of the above?
Well, for me I start with a composition, which is kind of the same as
an idea. I suppose I could describe it as emotion conveyed using
subconscious imagery. How you convey emotion that way is part subjective
to the artist, and part knowing the visual triggers for the average human
being.
For David's book...
> The book's current title is Future Imperfect: Technology and an
> Uncertain World." Its basic thesis is that the future is radically
> uncertain, that technologies currently in progress could lead to a
> strikingly more or less attractive, more or less free, more or less
> private, world than we now live in, with possible outcomes ranging from
> the elimination of our species within the next century to the conversion
> of humans to near gods. The book goes through a lot of possible
> technological revolutions based off different technologies, and what
> their consequences might be.
>
> The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
> technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
> nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
> but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
I'd look for something dark and complex at the bottom, progressing to
harsh lightness at the top, conveying potentials bubbling to the surface.
I'm thinking of a series of technological items -- steampunkish pipes,
chemistry tubes, and electronic wires -- all done in grayscale, beginning in
a complicated mess at the bottom and rising up, diverging just under where
the book title should be, and flowing off the sides of the cover, leaving
a triangle-shaped region at top that is blank white (with title and author
printed over it), or maybe a gradient fade to bright red at the very top if
you want to play up the potential disaster aspect.
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Indefensible Positions -- a story of superheroic philosophy.
http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/
Remus Shepherd
> Andrew Stephenson <am...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Sorry, had to rush. There are books on technique one may find in
> >a good library. Try Will Eisner's "Comics And Sequential Art" or
> >-- rats the name escapes me but there are several books on comics
> >writing which are well spoken of. HTH.
> Scott McCloud's _Understanding Comics_ and _Making Comics_
> spring to mind.
_Making Comics_ is only useful if you want to actually make comics,
as it is mostly art techniques.
_Understanding Comics_ -- the best of the trilogy, IMHO -- is useful
for anyone who wants to understand how human beings process visual
information. I heartily recommend this one.
_Reinventing Comics_, the middle of the three books, is a blend of
the other two. Very useful for comic artists, only somewhat useful
for others.
David Goldfarb
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> _Making Comics_ is only useful if you want to actually make comics,
>as it is mostly art techniques.
This came from Catja toying with the idea of making some comics.
(For myself, I'd never seen the stuff about facial expressions
before, and found it fascinating.)
--
David Goldfarb |From the fortune cookie file:
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |"Sell your ideas -- they are totally acceptable."
Tim S
>
> For David's book...
>
<snip>
> I'd look for something dark and complex at the bottom, progressing to
> harsh lightness at the top, conveying potentials bubbling to the surface.
>
> I'm thinking of a series of technological items -- steampunkish pipes,
> chemistry tubes, and electronic wires -- all done in grayscale, beginning in
> a complicated mess at the bottom and rising up, diverging just under where
> the book title should be, and flowing off the sides of the cover, leaving
> a triangle-shaped region at top that is blank white (with title and author
> printed over it), or maybe a gradient fade to bright red at the very top if
> you want to play up the potential disaster aspect.
Thank God, an actual artist ...
Tim
Remus Shepherd
> Thank God, an actual artist ...
> Tim
But nowhere near a professional quality artist, so don't put any extra
weight on my opinions. :)
Tim S
> Tim S <T...@timsilverman.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Remus Shepherd wrote:
>>> For David's book...
>> <snip>
>
>> Thank God, an actual artist ...
>
>> Tim
>
> But nowhere near a professional quality artist, so don't put any extra
> weight on my opinions. :)
>
> ... ...
:-) It wasn't so much putting weight on it, just the pleasure of getting
an opinion that was so thoroughly "artistic" -- I mean in the sense of
being completely visual in how you conceived it.
Tim
Rich Weyand
>I'm looking for ideas for the cover of my next book, which should be
>coming out fairly soon. It's non-fiction, but I think the subject still
>makes it an appropriate question to put here.
>
>Uncertain World." Its basic thesis is that the future is radically
>uncertain, that technologies currently in progress could lead to a
>strikingly more or less attractive, more or less free, more or less
>private, world than we now live in, with possible outcomes ranging from
>the elimination of our species within the next century to the conversion
>of humans to near gods. The book goes through a lot of possible
>technological revolutions based off different technologies, and what
>their consequences might be.
>
>The problem is how to signal that with cover art. One or two of the
>technologies have obvious graphical representations, most obviously
>nanotech, but most of them don't. A clouded crystal ball is appropriate,
>but I doubt many potential buyers would get the point.
>
Trying to get back into things after a long summer (I said it was long) of
many other activities, including buying property further south (30+ acres of
woods 15 minutes from a major university campus), remodeling the kitchen of
the current house (gonna have to sell it, and it needed an update), etcetcetc.
What occurs to me is something that shows a lot of different paths. How about
a pic of one of those domino things people do, where a single line of dominoes
(the past) branches out into a bunch of them that go many different
directions (many possible futures).
The signpost in the road pointing in different directions to "The Future" in
a number of different formats (how about one in chains, and one with a skull
and crossbones on it) also strikes a chord.
--
Rich Weyand
WIS: "Message Received" - 110 kwords
WIS: "Hero of the Captaincy" - 2300 words
WIP: untitled sequel to "Message Received"