[CRIT] Opening of SF novel
The CO
novel/novella.
This was *originally* going to be a later stage of what was *initially*
going to be a short story, however
it seems to have become the opening and the dialogue and narrative explain
the events that lead up to this point.
The premise and plot became too complex for me to shoehorn it in to
something smaller so.......
The main protagonist is actually the (unamed in this excerpt) translator....
Apologies if the text doesn't wrap properly. It's being written in MS Word
which I'm begining to think was a mistake as it seems non trivial
to get the text to wrap properly when pasting to Outlook Express email.
Advice on more "Manuscript Friendly" word processing apps or specifics on
how best to format
an MS for submission to workshops etc using Word 7 or later would be
gratefully received.
No apologies for the non US spelling....;^)
I guess I really just want to know if it reads like crap and/or whether it
would make you want to read on.
The General was concerned and looked it. "You're sure that this..Min
Drar?.." "Minndr'aa sir." His aide quickly corrected. "The General looked
pained. "Whatever. You're sure she can't be here and help explain the
situation?" "No sir, it would be improper for her to speak whilst still a
prisoner. Her statements about what she has seen will be taken into
consideration, but she cannot negotiate for us as a prisoner. She has
provided a written statement, in some sort of unusual variant of their
language that will spell it out for them, but that is the most she can do."
"That's another thing," the General said, "Can we trust she's written what
she said she would? We can't even read it." "Sir, she is genuine in her
desire for an end to the state of war. She owes the lives of her troops and
the civilians to us. She told us it was "T'chak r'll'a Ep'r'rr" a 'Debt of
Honour' and they set enormous importance on personal honour. If she betrayed
us in this, she would be condemned by her own people and would probably take
her own life to retrieve it, or be known as "Mrrr'tal ev'rnrl Ep'r'rr" a
"Warrior without Honour", and worthy only of death. She's genuine sir, I'm
sure of it." He looked at the General, "Sir, their culture is heavy on
personal honour, they have something like Bushido and a P'ra'af's loyalty is
to their extended family, or "Ll'rra". Each member is sworn to protect the
Ll'rra, and not to dishonour it. If they do, they can only redeem their
honour, and that of their Ll'rra by taking their own life." He looked at
the General. "Sir, when I described Bushido to Minndr'aa, she saw the
similarities too. This is a matter of honour to her." The General looked
thoughtfully at the young man who knew so much more about the P'ra'af than
he did.
They'd hinted at his hasty briefing that the translator was a P'ra'af expert
as well as the only human known to be truly fluent in their complex language
and that he should 'very seriously consider' any advice he gave. Hmmph, I
wonder if he realises just how much we are depending on his knowledge? I
sure as hell don't know much about them, he thought grimly. He nodded
resignedly. "This one on one negotiation between opposing Commanders is not
to my liking either, I'm a soldier not a goddamn diplomat." "Sir, with
respect, I'm just a soldier myself. I just managed to get close to her
because we have mutual acquaintances. After our cooperation on the planet, I
wound up defacto negotiator on the way back from Kilt'a 4 and then they
seconded me for this. They are very big on one-on-one in most everything.
Their society is based on their family units, which get quite large and they
don't fight wars like we have for millenia, but usually settle things
through single combat. Look at it this way sir, if they were trying to push
it, they'd invite you to fight their champion." He paused. "Sir, in their
society, the mere fact they offer parley indicates they don't want to
fight." The General nodded and smiled slightly, "Good. Not sure I fancy that
single combat idea anyway, be embarrassing to lose. Very well. Lets go." He
indicated the door to the conference room and motioned for his aide to
precede him.
(C) All Rights Reserved.
Geoff in Oz
nyra
>
> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> novel/novella.
A format nit for starters: why not put some "Story Start" sign at the
beginning - title, a dozen asterisks or something? Just for the looks.
> The General was concerned and looked it. "You're sure that this..Min
> Drar?.." "Minndr'aa sir."
As for the "alien" names and words - my first unfriendly association
was 'ah, someone must have found the secret apostrophe cemetery'; i'd
prefer if there were either more pronouncible or fewer names (if you
only use them sparingly, they can be as byzantine as you wish, as far
as i am concerned; and if you intend to turn it into a parody...).
[aide: "...she]
> provided a written statement, in some sort of unusual variant of their
> language
That's quite a mouthful. If you wanted to evoke the image of the aide
helplessly waving his hands in the air for a bit, you've succeeded. It
feels very natural for spoken language.
[aide: "... 'a matter of]
> Honour' and they set enormous importance on personal honour. If she betrayed
> us in this, she would be condemned by her own people and would probably take
> her own life to retrieve it, or be known as "Mrrr'tal ev'rnrl Ep'r'rr" a
> "Warrior without Honour", and worthy only of death.
What is meant by the "it" she would want to retrieve (presumably her
honour) is not immediately obvious in the written text and would
probably turn out worse when actually spoken.
"and worthy only of death" doesn't quite sound like normal spoken
english to my uneducated ear. I'm always knotting myself up when
trying to produce something that reads well and also achieves to sound
like actual spoken language used by actual people, i must admit.
> They'd hinted at his hasty briefing that the translator was a P'ra'af expert
> as well as the only human known to be truly fluent in their complex language
> and that he should 'very seriously consider' any advice he gave. Hmmph, I
> wonder if he realises just how much we are depending on his knowledge? I
> sure as hell don't know much about them, he thought grimly.
The "hasty briefing" ties very well with the numerous very basic
questions the higher officer has to ask; i find it nicely emphasises
that he's pretty much being sent into this almost completely ignorant.
I think the last two sentences could have been cut without real loss,
though. The dependance of the administration on the lone expert will
hopefully materialise later in the piece, and the very small base of
knowledge the General possesses has been demonstrated sufficiently
already.
> He nodded
> resignedly. "This one on one negotiation between opposing Commanders is not
> to my liking either, I'm a soldier not a goddamn diplomat."
Here i wonder whether it's simply a shoestring operation that they
send a military officer to negociations or whether it's but a minor
war HQ just doesn't really care about?
Used efficiently, it could be a good hook for a side issue.
> He
> indicated the door to the conference room and motioned for his aide to
> precede him.
I must say, the exposition didn't quite grip me. There are good hooks,
but for me it's too much info-dumping right at the start, not enough
actual plot lay-out, not enough open questions.
It also feels very much like a "meet the Klingons" bit; i think the
names and words contribute to that impression. And i'm not a Klingons
fan.
--
Doch verblendet von den Sachen,/Tut die Först'rin sich aufmachen,
Und vollbringt nach kurzer Weile/Diese Mordtat mit dem Beile.
- Schaudervolle schreckliche Mordtat, welche sich kürzlich in Bömen
unweit Prag zugetragen hat.
GJ Pfeiffer
wrote:
> The CO schrieb:
>>
>> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
>> novel/novella.
>
> A format nit for starters: why not put some "Story Start" sign at the
> beginning - title, a dozen asterisks or something? Just for the looks.
It was a bit jarring to fall into the story without warning.
Mmm ... I assume your [non-]handling of paragraphs is explained by your
comment about having difficulty pasting into OE. The lack of proper
dialog format got in the way of my reading. Which I realize is a
nitpick; I'm just telling you because it may have influenced my other
reactions.
BTW, before you go looking for a different WP, first get a different
newsreader. I use 40tude Dialog <http://www.40tude.com/dialog>. It is
for Windows, and it's free. Compared to OE, it will knock your socks
off. But there are other good choices available.
>
>> The General was concerned and looked it. "You're sure that this..Min
>> Drar?.." "Minndr'aa sir."
>
> As for the "alien" names and words - my first unfriendly association
> was 'ah, someone must have found the secret apostrophe cemetery'; i'd
> prefer if there were either more pronouncible or fewer names (if you
> only use them sparingly, they can be as byzantine as you wish, as far
> as i am concerned; and if you intend to turn it into a parody...).
The names bothered me, too. I can see you're up against the problem of
trying to transcribe an alien language that doesn't fit with human vocal
apparatus, but less is more in this case. Maybe you could keep a few
(very few) proper names but refer to the cultural concepts only by their
English translations.
The apostrophes are awfully cliché, though, unless you mean them for
that clicking sound (linguists among us, help, I don't know what to call
it, but YKWIM). To my ear that wouldn't fit with the other sounds in
your names, as they appear to be mostly liquid. Besides, then you would
need to show they *weren't* just standard SF cliché apostrophes.
[snip]
>
>> He nodded
>> resignedly. "This one on one negotiation between opposing Commanders is not
>> to my liking either, I'm a soldier not a goddamn diplomat."
>
> Here i wonder whether it's simply a shoestring operation that they
> send a military officer to negociations or whether it's but a minor
> war HQ just doesn't really care about?
> Used efficiently, it could be a good hook for a side issue.
I read this as being at the aliens' insistence. But taking a second
look I don't really see where I got that, although it is later supported
by the reference to single combat.
Overall impressions: The story sounds interesting, but your writing
doesn't grab me. Not crap, just needing something. I'm not an
experienced enough critter spot the specific problems, but I hope others
here will have more for you.
[Disclaimer: I have over 40 years' experience /reading/ SF, but I am a
raw, very raw, beginner at writing any kind of fiction. (Come to think
of it--I /can/ claim some creative exposition of facts on the job. <G>
But that's a different kind of fiction.)]
--
Glenda [formerly known as GJP and MamaG]
The CO
"nyra" <ny...@gmx.net> wrote in message news:4110E499...@gmx.net...
> The CO schrieb:
> >
> > Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> > novel/novella.
Firstly, thanks for taking the time to read and comment.
> A format nit for starters: why not put some "Story Start" sign at the
> beginning - title, a dozen asterisks or something? Just for the looks.
Ok, sounds reasonable. Next time. :^)
I don't actually have even a working title yet. Something to consider soon
actually.
> > The General was concerned and looked it. "You're sure that this..Min
> > Drar?.." "Minndr'aa sir."
>
> As for the "alien" names and words - my first unfriendly association
> was 'ah, someone must have found the secret apostrophe cemetery';
LOL. Yeah, I agree they are a bit of a mouthfull, but I'm trying to convey
(and this is
spelled out later) that this is an *incredibly complex* language and that
it's nearly
impossible to learn except by immersion as a child. (Which is how the
protagonist did it)
I will play with some different forms, but the shorter apostrophe ridden
form seems to work
best so far, the only other that looked mildly possible used much longer
words with many u and o
sounds. I've actually reserved that form for a couple of brief (names
mostly) exposures of another
alien language (the enemy). I will keep playing with it, but I don't have
either the ability nor the desire
of Tolkien to completely invent an actually useable language for this.
Here's a small section from a later
part of the story that will show you what I mean about the language...
******************
"Don't give your translators a hard time sir, I grew up immersed in this
language and I can switch between it and English without even thinking about
it, but if you DON'T grow up with it, the grammar is a real bitch sir. They
don't pitch syllables like the Japanese, but the positional and contextual
grammar makes Russian grammar look simple. I can think of 16 different forms
of the phrase you gave and I can probably guess most of the sentence based
on the contextual grammar in that phrase. I CAN tell you that it was said by
a male P'ra'af speaking to a group of mixed sex about a 3rd party who is not
present and who is also male." The Intel man looked stunned. "You got ALL
that from a two word phrase? I'm impressed. Okay, I'll pass that on."
********************
I guiess I'm trying to make it seem like a *really* alien language....
The allusion to Russian is not casual, as it's grammar does alter on gender
grounds
as not only what you say but who you say it to affects it. I'm trying to
convey the concept
of a language that is *very* grammatically complex beyond even that.
> i'd prefer if there were either more pronouncible or fewer names (if you
> only use them sparingly,
I've tried to use a mix of English and 'alien' with the alien term in
context such that it
is either explained in narrative or obvious from useage. I can think of no
easy way to
illustrate this, but apart from proper names and a few titles I try to keep
it to a minimum
amount. I've no wish to have it become like reading Star Trek in Klingon.
> they can be as byzantine as you wish, as far
> as i am concerned; and if you intend to turn it into a parody...).
No, parody isn't the intent. It's straight up SF (I hope).
> [aide: "...she]
> > provided a written statement, in some sort of unusual variant of their
> > language
>
> That's quite a mouthful. If you wanted to evoke the image of the aide
> helplessly waving his hands in the air for a bit, you've succeeded. It
> feels very natural for spoken language.
\
Ok, not really the intent. Um, the problem with posting just an opening is
that much of what is
initially stated here isn't explained at the time it's said, but is 'stage
setting' for the next part (the meeting)
where it becomes clear what it's about. In this case, the translator knows
roughly what the alien is supposed
to have written, but he can't read that obscure form of it and is trying to
calm the Generals suspicion that
she might be trying to pull something, hence the whole 'honour' dialogue....
> [aide: "... 'a matter of]
> > Honour' and they set enormous importance on personal honour. If she
betrayed
> > us in this, she would be condemned by her own people and would probably
take
> > her own life to retrieve it, or be known as "Mrrr'tal ev'rnrl Ep'r'rr" a
> > "Warrior without Honour", and worthy only of death.
>
> What is meant by the "it" she would want to retrieve (presumably her
> honour) is not immediately obvious in the written text and would
> probably turn out worse when actually spoken.
Concur, I need to revisit this bit of dialogue, that part is way too long as
well I think.
> "and worthy only of death" doesn't quite sound like normal spoken
> english to my uneducated ear. I'm always knotting myself up when
> trying to produce something that reads well and also achieves to sound
> like actual spoken language used by actual people, i must admit.
I'm going to strike that sentence. On rereading it seems overly, uh,
flowery, for want of a better term.
That said, the P'ra'af have a lot of protocol in their dealings with each
other and they tend to speak
rather more formally in that context, so some of the dialogue *is* overly
formal *by intent* but that
doesn't apply at this point.
I concur that sometimes things read well but don't always sound as good in
dialogue and vice
versa. I'm making an effort to use contractions and hopefully avoid it
sounding contrived unless it's
*supposed* to sound formal.
> > They'd hinted at his hasty briefing that the translator was a P'ra'af
expert
> > as well as the only human known to be truly fluent in their complex
language
> > and that he should 'very seriously consider' any advice he gave. Hmmph,
I
> > wonder if he realises just how much we are depending on his knowledge? I
> > sure as hell don't know much about them, he thought grimly.
>
> The "hasty briefing" ties very well with the numerous very basic
> questions the higher officer has to ask; i find it nicely emphasises
> that he's pretty much being sent into this almost completely ignorant.
Yes. Very short notice, it's only hinted at until later, but he had to be
pulled in
from his field position a long way out to be present since the aliens only
negotiate
'commander to commander' in this sort of situation.
> I think the last two sentences could have been cut without real loss,
> though. The dependance of the administration on the lone expert will
> hopefully materialise later in the piece,
Ok, I'll have a look at this. I agree it seems a little overemphatic.
> and the very small base of
> knowledge the General possesses has been demonstrated sufficiently
> already.
Ok.
> > He nodded
> > resignedly. "This one on one negotiation between opposing Commanders is
not
> > to my liking either, I'm a soldier not a goddamn diplomat."
> Here i wonder whether it's simply a shoestring operation that they
> send a military officer to negociations or whether it's but a minor
> war HQ just doesn't really care about?
Nooo, just a very short time frame to drag him back from wherever he was in
time.
He has to be there, but it's really the aide doing the leg work, he's more
of a figurehead
and he realises this as the conference progresses and passes it on later.
> Used efficiently, it could be a good hook for a side issue.
Hmm, I'll think about that.
> > He
> > indicated the door to the conference room and motioned for his aide to
> > precede him.
>
> I must say, the exposition didn't quite grip me. There are good hooks,
> but for me it's too much info-dumping right at the start, not enough
> actual plot lay-out, not enough open questions.
Hmm, ok, I see what you mean, what you are asking *is* pretty much spelled
out
in the next, 500 or so words, (basically the conference explains the
situation and fills
in the gaps and presents the beginnings of the plot and situation.)
> It also feels very much like a "meet the Klingons" bit;
Ok, not quite sure what you mean by this. I know what a Klingon is
obviously,
(BTW the P'ra'af are really not that much like them) and obviously there is
a meeting involved,
but I get impression you have a specific thing in mind. Would you care to
elaborate?
One of the challlenges is the 'worldbuilding' of not only a future human
star faring technological society but
a functional, *truly alien* environment, language and technological star
faring society. I have to build some of
it 'as I go' and some of the protocol that pops up later wasn't easy, but I
felt it was necessary to make the
society seem both alien and at the same time 'feel' like it was something
real and functional.
> i think the
> names and words contribute to that impression. And i'm not a Klingons
> fan.
LOL. I think they got a bit overdone. Klaatu barada nikto?
Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.
Regards
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"GJ Pfeiffer" <DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:oblmw6rr0z1b$.1mrqyg3u180c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
> In article <news:4110E499...@gmx.net>, nyra <nyra <ny...@gmx.net>>
> wrote:
>
> > The CO schrieb:
> >>
> >> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> >> novel/novella.
> >
> > A format nit for starters: why not put some "Story Start" sign at the
> > beginning - title, a dozen asterisks or something? Just for the looks.
>
> It was a bit jarring to fall into the story without warning.
Ok so noted. Thanks.
> Mmm ... I assume your [non-]handling of paragraphs is explained by your
> comment about having difficulty pasting into OE.
Somewhat, but I obviously need to pay more attention to such things than
I have. I tend to 'dump' the story as fast as I can type it, (pretty fast)
and then
go back and fix up obvious errors etc. I've subconsciously put off strict
formatting
until 'later' but I think I might need to go back and sort that before I
proceed any
further or it's going to get messy.
> The lack of proper
> dialog format got in the way of my reading. Which I realize is a
> nitpick;
Not really. If it affected your ability to read the story easily it's quite
relevant.
> I'm just telling you because it may have influenced my other
> reactions.
Fine.
> BTW, before you go looking for a different WP, first get a different
> newsreader. I use 40tude Dialog <http://www.40tude.com/dialog>. It is
> for Windows, and it's free. Compared to OE, it will knock your socks
> off. But there are other good choices available.
Yeah, I've stuck with OE probably long after I should have, purely from
convenience,
but I think it might be time to move to something that doesn't screw around
with the
damn text so much.
> >> The General was concerned and looked it. "You're sure that this..Min
> >> Drar?.." "Minndr'aa sir."
> >
> > As for the "alien" names and words - my first unfriendly association
> > was 'ah, someone must have found the secret apostrophe cemetery'; i'd
> > prefer if there were either more pronouncible or fewer names (if you
> > only use them sparingly, they can be as byzantine as you wish, as far
> > as i am concerned; and if you intend to turn it into a parody...).
>
> The names bothered me, too. I can see you're up against the problem of
> trying to transcribe an alien language that doesn't fit with human vocal
> apparatus, but less is more in this case.
So it seems. I'm going to try to keep to occasional useage of some terms
and
proper names. I'd like to avoid it completely but... (see my response to
the first critique)
> Maybe you could keep a few
> (very few) proper names but refer to the cultural concepts only by their
> English translations.
Trying to (mostly) do that.
> The apostrophes are awfully cliché,
Yes, and I think I'm beginning to understand why. There seem to be very
few workable alternative ways to illustrate a completely alien language.
> though, unless you mean them for
> that clicking sound (linguists among us, help, I don't know what to call
> it, but YKWIM).
No not really.
> To my ear that wouldn't fit with the other sounds in
> your names, as they appear to be mostly liquid. Besides, then you would
> need to show they *weren't* just standard SF cliché apostrophes.
Yes, I'm afraid they are the 'cliche' variant, but I'm open to suggestions
for
alternatives.
> [snip]
> >
> >> He nodded
> >> resignedly. "This one on one negotiation between opposing Commanders is
not
> >> to my liking either, I'm a soldier not a goddamn diplomat."
> >
> > Here i wonder whether it's simply a shoestring operation that they
> > send a military officer to negociations or whether it's but a minor
> > war HQ just doesn't really care about?
> > Used efficiently, it could be a good hook for a side issue.
>
> I read this as being at the aliens' insistence. But taking a second
> look I don't really see where I got that, although it is later supported
> by the reference to single combat.
Well, that was the feeling I wanted to create, you are right in that it
doesn't actually
say that anywhere. In fact it's due to short notice and the General having
to be
dragged in from 'way out there' to be present in order to fit in with the
aliens
particular protocols for dealing with this situation.
> Overall impressions: The story sounds interesting, but your writing
> doesn't grab me. Not crap, just needing something.
Ok, that's a start. Thanks.
I should point out that it may be more appealing to a male reader than
a female one, but that's not invariably true and this far into it, the
reasons
for that haven't really manifested themselves so your failure to be grabbed
by it is likely to be due to something else.
> I'm not an
> experienced enough critter spot the specific problems, but I hope others
> here will have more for you.
Everything helps.
> [Disclaimer: I have over 40 years' experience /reading/ SF, but I am a
> raw, very raw, beginner at writing any kind of fiction.
My background is similar, though probably around 35 years. This is my
first attempt at writing *anything*.
> (Come to think
> of it--I /can/ claim some creative exposition of facts on the job. <G>
> But that's a different kind of fiction.)]
LOL.
Thanks for your input,
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
Warrick M. Locke
says...
> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> novel/novella.
>
>
> Apologies if the text doesn't wrap properly. It's being written in MS Word
> which I'm begining to think was a mistake as it seems non trivial
> to get the text to wrap properly when pasting to Outlook Express email.
Call up WordPad. Select File->New, and when the options panel comes up,
select "Text Document." Under View, select Options; on the Text tab, set
the radio button for "Wrap to Window." Copy and paste your text from Word
into that and do any editing needed, including adding an extra [ENTER]
between paragraphs. Re-size the window several times to make sure the
text reformats itself for the new width (if it doesn't, delete the End-
Of-Line characters that truncate the lines, and insert spaces as
necessary.) Save the result [you can delete it later, if you care to] but
leave the WordPad window open. Copy and paste from WordPad to the Send
window, even if it's Outlook.
For a check, open the saved file in Notepad. If each paragraph is a
single line that extends 'way off to the right, you've done it correctly.
The result is a straight ASCII text file with one and only one End-of-
Line for each paragraph, and an extra End-Of-Line between paragraphs for
reading clarity. When posted it will arrange itself properly. What other
peoples' newsreaders do with it isn't always clearly defined, but the
procedure above gives you the best chance.
And second the advice to get a newsreader. Outlook isn't a newsreader;
it's an All Things To All People mishmash of unrelated features, not
particularly good for anything but sort of acceptable for a lot of stuff
if you aren't too picky. It has a number of "helpful" misfeatures that
cause problems for the recipients of your messages, starting with its
default behavior of including Microsoft-flavor HTML in everything it
sends. The paragraphing problems you're having derive from one of those;
Outlook "knows" there are line-length restrictions and makes up its own
using a stupidly conservative criterion, then enforces them. You can
bypass that, as above, but having to do extra work to overcome the "help"
is not, in my opinion, a feature.
Regards,
Ric
GJ Pfeiffer
<as...@somewhere.in.oz.au>> wrote:
> "GJ Pfeiffer" <DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:oblmw6rr0z1b$.1mrqyg3u180c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> In article <news:4110E499...@gmx.net>, nyra <nyra <ny...@gmx.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The CO schrieb:
[snip]
>> The apostrophes are awfully cliché,
>
> Yes, and I think I'm beginning to understand why. There seem to be very
> few workable alternative ways to illustrate a completely alien language.
>
>> though, unless you mean them for
>> that clicking sound (linguists among us, help, I don't know what to call
>> it, but YKWIM).
>
> No not really.
There are people here with in-depth linguistic expertise who should (I
hope!) know what I was talking about, and I was asking one of them to
jump in and say it properly for me.
I'll try to unpack it as far as I can. I have been told there is a real
sound in a few languages that is written as an apostrophe, but it is a
sound that a naive English speaker wouldn't consider as being a language
sort of sound because it is a click. (Uhh, not involving the passage of
air through any part of the mouth or throat?)
Unless I am completely wrong, in which case I will crawl into the corner
and quietly whimper with embarrassment.
In any event, from your later posts, my original comment about it
appears to be irrelevant.
Brian M. Scott
<DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> wrote in
<news:mbib0pklyc6e.1buh5lf7u8kv1$.d...@40tude.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <news:41110...@news.iprimus.com.au>, The CO <The CO
> <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au>> wrote:
>> "GJ Pfeiffer" <DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:oblmw6rr0z1b$.1mrqyg3u180c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
[...]
>>> The apostrophes are awfully cliché,
>> Yes, and I think I'm beginning to understand why. There seem to be very
>> few workable alternative ways to illustrate a completely alien language.
In fact you've already shown enough to demonstrate that it
probably *isn't*. The phonology is, but the little bit of
grammar that you've shown is English: prepositions rather
than inflections, and with English word order.
>>> though, unless you mean them for
>>> that clicking sound (linguists among us, help, I don't know what to call
>>> it, but YKWIM).
>> No not really.
> There are people here with in-depth linguistic expertise who should (I
> hope!) know what I was talking about, and I was asking one of them to
> jump in and say it properly for me.
There are several varieties of click, including the one
represented in English by 'tsk!', the sort of clucking one
made to horses that uses the side of the tongue, and the
bilabial kissing click, but in my experience none of them is
normally represented by an apostrophe. I've seen the
apostrophe used to represent a glottal stop -- the sound in
the middle of 'uh-oh!' -- and to indicate that a preceding
consonant is palatalized, but that's about it. One could
use them to indicate that a preceding stop consonant was an
ejective or an implosive, I suppose.
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in
<news:4110f...@news.iprimus.com.au> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "nyra" <ny...@gmx.net> wrote in message news:4110E499...@gmx.net...
>> The CO schrieb:
>>> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
>>> novel/novella.
[...]
>> As for the "alien" names and words - my first unfriendly association
>> was 'ah, someone must have found the secret apostrophe cemetery';
> LOL. Yeah, I agree they are a bit of a mouthfull, but I'm trying to convey
> (and this is
> spelled out later) that this is an *incredibly complex* language and that
> it's nearly
> impossible to learn except by immersion as a child.
[...]
> ******************
> "Don't give your translators a hard time sir, I grew up immersed in this
> language and I can switch between it and English without even thinking about
> it, but if you DON'T grow up with it, the grammar is a real bitch sir. They
> don't pitch syllables like the Japanese, but the positional and contextual
> grammar makes Russian grammar look simple. I can think of 16 different forms
> of the phrase you gave and I can probably guess most of the sentence based
> on the contextual grammar in that phrase. I CAN tell you that it was said by
> a male P'ra'af speaking to a group of mixed sex about a 3rd party who is not
> present and who is also male." The Intel man looked stunned. "You got ALL
> that from a two word phrase? I'm impressed. Okay, I'll pass that on."
> ********************
> I guiess I'm trying to make it seem like a *really* alien language....
> The allusion to Russian is not casual, as it's grammar does alter on gender
> grounds
> as not only what you say but who you say it to affects it. I'm trying to
> convey the concept
> of a language that is *very* grammatically complex beyond even that.
You're confusing two things here, the phonology -- the sound
system of the language -- and its grammar. You're showing a
very unfamiliar phonology, somewhat reminiscent of the one
used by Weber and White for their quasi-feline Orion
species, but as I said elsewhere, what little grammar you've
shown isn't at all exotic. If you don't want to invent the
language, or at least its skeleton, you can certainly get
away with just *saying* that it's complex, with
illustrations like the one above; making it a phonological
nightmare for human beings is a completely separate issue.
[...]
Brian
GJ Pfeiffer
Scott <"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 17:05:14 GMT, GJ Pfeiffer
> <DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> wrote in
[snip]
>> There are people here with in-depth linguistic expertise who should (I
>> hope!) know what I was talking about, and I was asking one of them to
>> jump in and say it properly for me.
>
> There are several varieties of click, including the one
> represented in English by 'tsk!', the sort of clucking one
> made to horses that uses the side of the tongue, and the
> bilabial kissing click, but in my experience none of them is
> normally represented by an apostrophe. I've seen the
> apostrophe used to represent a glottal stop -- the sound in
> the middle of 'uh-oh!' -- and to indicate that a preceding
> consonant is palatalized, but that's about it. One could
> use them to indicate that a preceding stop consonant was an
> ejective or an implosive, I suppose.
>
Oh. OK, thanks.
Karen Lofstrom
> I'll try to unpack it as far as I can. I have been told there is a real
> sound in a few languages that is written as an apostrophe, but it is a
> sound that a naive English speaker wouldn't consider as being a language
> sort of sound because it is a click.
Glottal stop is often done with an apostrophe, but the correct character
is an upside down single quote (Unicode 02BB or ʻ). I don't know how
many different kinds of clicks there are, but one at least is represented
by an exclamation mark.
I've been learning about Unicode. The code reference pages are marvelous.
<http://www.unicode.org/charts/> Who knew there were so many alphabets,
syllabaries, etc? They even have codes for Linear B, Ugaritic, Ogham, and
other little-known scripts.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------
You cannot truly appreciate Atlas Shrugged until you have
read it in the original Klingon. --Sea Wasp
Zeborah
> "Don't give your translators a hard time sir, I grew up immersed in this
> language and I can switch between it and English without even thinking
> about it, but if you DON'T grow up with it, the grammar is a real bitch
> sir. They don't pitch syllables like the Japanese, but the positional and
What do you mean by "pitch syllables"?
Zeborah
Khiem Tran
"The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in message
news:41106...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> novel/novella.
> I guess I really just want to know if it reads like crap and/or whether it
> would make you want to read on.
It's not crap. There weren't any real hooks for me in that particular
passage though. I guess a lot will depend on what happens in the meeting. If
things proceed pretty much as predicted by this opening (the female Minndr'a
was genuine, the translator is competent, the other Minndr'a really will act
honourably), then the beginning sounds a bit redundant. If everything ends
up going to heck, then the opening is probably just right. I guess the thing
is, despite the General's unpreparedness, I'm expecting things to go well.
The apostrophes were a bit distracting. Have you considered maybe slipping
in more of a reaction from the General to the odd pronunciation? I know you
say he looked pained, but it wasn't clear to me whether it was over the
sound of the words or over being corrected by the aide.
The background info you have given in this passage all sounds quite detailed
and consistent. I do wonder how much of it you needed to give for the next
scene to sense. Could you have got away with starting in the meeting itself
and introducing things only as needed?
Finally, how do you think the passage reads if you take out some of the
adverbs? ie. "..he thought grimly. He nodded resignedly..." etc. It sounds a
bit better to me without them, but YMMV.
Hope this helps,
Khiem
Dan Goodman
> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> novel/novella.
>
>
> The General was concerned and looked it. "You're sure that this..Min
> Drar?.." "Minndr'aa sir." His aide quickly corrected. "The General
> looked pained. "Whatever. You're sure she can't be here and help
> explain the situation?" "No sir, it would be improper for her to speak
> whilst still a prisoner.
The situation looks interesting, so far.
Take what you can use, and leave the rest. I see two large problems; one
is easily fixed.
The easy one: The General needs a name. First, because characters need
names as far as I'm concerned. Second, because what I understand of
military protocol says that in formal discourse he would be referred to
as General Whatever-his-name-is. The aide also needs a name, of course.
Minor problem: You need to know the General's rank; "General" is too
general. You also need to know the aide's rank. And a fair amount about
this particular military force. Some of what you need to know, you can
find in books. (I recommend basing it on the Australian Air Force.)
Other stuff -- how things actually work, as opposed to how they work on
paper -- you'll need to get from people who have the relevant experience.
You also need to know the alien prisoner's exact rank -- both what it is
in her culture's terms, and how it translates into human-culture terms.
By the way -- is it simply coincidence that both of these first two
characters are male, or is the military organization mostly-male? If the
latter, the trend is going in the other direction.
The big problem: This is too big a lump all at once.
I think it works better to start with a small bit of the story-world and
expand from that.
Tolkien did that one way in Lord of the Rings. (Many current fantasy
writers would have begun with a preface giving all the history relevant
to the story -- plus Sauron's blood type, whether orcs like ketchup....
Tolkien's preface is about the history of the Shire.)
Larry Niven did it another way in Destiny's Road.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Dan Goodman
> I have been told there is a real
> sound in a few languages that is written as an apostrophe, but it is a
> sound that a naive English speaker wouldn't consider as being a language
> sort of sound because it is a click. (Uhh, not involving the passage of
> air through any part of the mouth or throat?)
There are _several_ sounds in various languages which are written as an
apostrophe. An apostrophe is also used to _modify_ a letter, indicating
that it's used a bit differently
from what an English-speaker would expect.
And then there are the several purposes for which it's used in written
English.
I suspect that most sf/fantasy writers who use apostrophes lavishly are
people who _never_ sound out words in their heads when reading them, and
haven't the least idea that some of us do.
The CO
"Warrick M. Locke" <warl...@mesh.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b7ac4fd5...@news.mesh.net...
> In article <41106...@news.iprimus.com.au>, as...@somewhere.in.oz.au
> says...
> > Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> > novel/novella.
> >
> The story of which I won't comment on.
> >
> > Apologies if the text doesn't wrap properly. It's being written in MS
Word
> > which I'm begining to think was a mistake as it seems non trivial
> > to get the text to wrap properly when pasting to Outlook Express email.
>
> Call up WordPad. Select File->New, and when the options panel comes up,
> select "Text Document." Under View, select Options; on the Text tab, set
> the radio button for "Wrap to Window." Copy and paste your text from Word
> into that and do any editing needed, including adding an extra [ENTER]
> between paragraphs. Re-size the window several times to make sure the
> text reformats itself for the new width (if it doesn't, delete the End-
> Of-Line characters that truncate the lines, and insert spaces as
> necessary.) Save the result [you can delete it later, if you care to] but
> leave the WordPad window open. Copy and paste from WordPad to the Send
> window, even if it's Outlook.
Ok, I'll try it that way, thank you.
> For a check, open the saved file in Notepad. If each paragraph is a
> single line that extends 'way off to the right, you've done it correctly.
> The result is a straight ASCII text file with one and only one End-of-
> Line for each paragraph, and an extra End-Of-Line between paragraphs for
> reading clarity. When posted it will arrange itself properly. What other
> peoples' newsreaders do with it isn't always clearly defined, but the
> procedure above gives you the best chance.
Ah! Ok, I get what you mean.
> And second the advice to get a newsreader. Outlook isn't a newsreader;
> it's an All Things To All People mishmash of unrelated features, not
> particularly good for anything but sort of acceptable for a lot of stuff
> if you aren't too picky.
Yeah, that about covers it. I'm going to do that. I spend a lot of time in
newsgroups and the bondage and discipline way it insists on reformatting
text is becoming intolerable.
> It has a number of "helpful" misfeatures that
> cause problems for the recipients of your messages, starting with its
> default behavior of including Microsoft-flavor HTML in everything it
> sends.
I turned off that and the default behaviour that prevents you opening
attachments.
> The paragraphing problems you're having derive from one of those;
> Outlook "knows" there are line-length restrictions and makes up its own
> using a stupidly conservative criterion, then enforces them. You can
> bypass that, as above, but having to do extra work to overcome the "help"
> is not, in my opinion, a feature.
It's worse if you are typing a raw message and go back and edit or otherwise
enter
new lines. It still counts from the start and inserts a cr/lf every x
characters regardless.
My patience with it is exhausted. I'll be installing something else as soon
as I decide
what I like best. I've had one suggestion already and I have downloaded it
to
evaluate.
Thanks
Geoff in Oz
The CO
> In article <news:41110...@news.iprimus.com.au>, The CO <The CO
> <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au>> wrote:
>
> > "GJ Pfeiffer" <DELETEME....@DELETEME.satx.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:oblmw6rr0z1b$.1mrqyg3u180c8$.dlg@40tude.net...
> >> In article <news:4110E499...@gmx.net>, nyra <nyra <ny...@gmx.net>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The CO schrieb:
> [snip]
> >> The apostrophes are awfully cliché,
> >
> > Yes, and I think I'm beginning to understand why. There seem to be very
> > few workable alternative ways to illustrate a completely alien language.
> >
> >> though, unless you mean them for
> >> that clicking sound (linguists among us, help, I don't know what to
call
> >> it, but YKWIM).
> >
> > No not really.
>
> There are people here with in-depth linguistic expertise who should (I
> hope!) know what I was talking about, and I was asking one of them to
> jump in and say it properly for me.
Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I understand what you mean, I wasn't trying to
illustrate that kind of sound.
> I'll try to unpack it as far as I can. I have been told there is a real
> sound in a few languages that is written as an apostrophe, but it is a
> sound that a naive English speaker wouldn't consider as being a language
> sort of sound because it is a click. (Uhh, not involving the passage of
> air through any part of the mouth or throat?)
I think there are ways to do it, but not sure what they are.
> Unless I am completely wrong, in which case I will crawl into the corner
> and quietly whimper with embarrassment.
> In any event, from your later posts, my original comment about it
> appears to be irrelevant.
It was a good thought though.
Cheers
Geoff in OZ
The CO
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:1l01tna7qkev5.bcrl4imnq7wz$.dlg@40tude.net...
<Snip>
> You're confusing two things here, the phonology -- the sound
> system of the language -- and its grammar. You're showing a
> very unfamiliar phonology, somewhat reminiscent of the one
> used by Weber and White for their quasi-feline Orion
> species,
Haven't read that one.
> but as I said elsewhere, what little grammar you've
> shown isn't at all exotic. If you don't want to invent the
> language, or at least its skeleton, you can certainly get
> away with just *saying* that it's complex, with
> illustrations like the one above; making it a phonological
> nightmare for human beings is a completely separate issue.
Yes, I see what you mean I think. Put it this way, at no point does
the language appear except as either a
1) Proper Name or title
2) Name of an object
In either case it's given as a maximum of a 3 word phrase and the english
meaning is
either given or is not important enough to matter. Wherever possible after
that the
english meaning is used instead.
I can see from the comments that the language is something of an issue so I
will reconsider the
whole thing and see if I can simplify it a bit.
Thanks
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"Zeborah" <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1gi1drk.1l29sqw1vlfmkgN%zeb...@gmail.com...
Pitched languages like Japanese and Chinese alter the meaning of words
according to
the pitch of the voice on a syllable. English means the same in a monotone
or if you pitch alternate syllables high or low. It might sound wierd but
it
doesn't alter the meaning. In Chinese or Japanese it completely alters the
meaning of the word. IIRC, Mandarin has 3 pitches and Cantonese 5
not sure about Japanese but I think it's 3.
Thanks
Geoff in Oz
Alma Hromic Deckert
wrote:
>
>"Zeborah" <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1gi1drk.1l29sqw1vlfmkgN%zeb...@gmail.com...
>> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
>>
>> > "Don't give your translators a hard time sir, I grew up immersed in this
>> > language and I can switch between it and English without even thinking
>> > about it, but if you DON'T grow up with it, the grammar is a real bitch
>> > sir. They don't pitch syllables like the Japanese, but the positional
>and
>>
>> What do you mean by "pitch syllables"?
>
>Pitched languages like Japanese and Chinese alter the meaning of words
>according to the pitch of the voice on a syllable.
>
yeah but although i got the idea of what you meant i had to read that
sentence twice to get rid of the persistent presence of that second
meaning of "pitch" and stop my mind's eye from presenting me with
mental images of people juggling syllables and pitching them with
malice aforethought at people they thought deserved being whacked by a
Bad Word...
A.
The CO
"Khiem Tran" <nguyen_k...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:2nd21iF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in message
> news:41106...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> > novel/novella.
>
>
> > I guess I really just want to know if it reads like crap and/or whether
it
> > would make you want to read on.
>
> It's not crap.
Well, that's a start :^)
>There weren't any real hooks for me in that particular
> passage though. I guess a lot will depend on what happens in the meeting.
Yes, I'm afraid that the entire basis for the plot and the identification of
the main characters
starts then, not in this section. I have considered pulling this part
almost in toto, but much of
what goes on in the meeting won't make sense without the lead up, so I may
have to revise the
first 1500 words or so to perhaps combine the two a little more. I'll think
about that. OTOH,
since it DOES all get going in the next 300 words or so, it may not matter.
> things proceed pretty much as predicted by this opening (the female
Minndr'a
> was genuine,
Yes.
> the translator is competent,
Yes.
> the other Minndr'a really will act
> honourably), then the beginning sounds a bit redundant.
Ok, didn't think about it from that viewpoint. I see what you mean.
> If everything ends
> up going to heck, then the opening is probably just right. I guess the
thing
> is, despite the General's unpreparedness, I'm expecting things to go well.
>
Yes they do. I should point out that though it might seem he is going to be
the protagonist here, in fact, the translator (who is a junior officer) is.
This happens about halfway through the conference and the story follows
him from that point.
> The apostrophes were a bit distracting. Have you considered maybe slipping
> in more of a reaction from the General to the odd pronunciation? I know
you
> say he looked pained, but it wasn't clear to me whether it was over the
> sound of the words or over being corrected by the aide.
The latter, though I agree it's not real clear. I'll put that on the 'tidy
up' list.
> The background info you have given in this passage all sounds quite
detailed
> and consistent. I do wonder how much of it you needed to give for the next
> scene to sense.
> Could you have got away with starting in the meeting itself
> and introducing things only as needed?
The meeting 'as is' might be able to stand on it's own. I'm going to look
at that.
With a little juggling it no doubt could, and it *would* make the identity
of the
protagonist obvious more quickly. The first 500 words tends to indicate the
General is the protagonist.
>
> Finally, how do you think the passage reads if you take out some of the
> adverbs? ie. "..he thought grimly. He nodded resignedly..." etc. It sounds
a
> bit better to me without them, but YMMV.
Hmm, I'll suck it and see. Maybe.
> Hope this helps,
Everything helps.
Thank you for your time.
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"Dan Goodman" <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:Xns953BCF84D74...@209.98.13.60...
> "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in
>
> > Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> > novel/novella.
> >
> >
> > The General was concerned and looked it. "You're sure that this..Min
> > Drar?.." "Minndr'aa sir." His aide quickly corrected. "The General
> > looked pained. "Whatever. You're sure she can't be here and help
> > explain the situation?" "No sir, it would be improper for her to speak
> > whilst still a prisoner.
>
> The situation looks interesting, so far.
>
> Take what you can use, and leave the rest. I see two large problems; one
> is easily fixed.
Ok.
> The easy one: The General needs a name. First, because characters need
> names as far as I'm concerned. Second, because what I understand of
> military protocol says that in formal discourse he would be referred to
> as General Whatever-his-name-is. The aide also needs a name, of course.
Ok, yes I see what you mean. He does have a name. I'll adjust the meeting
to
include it. It occurs to me that in the meeting there is no formal
introduction, just a
presentation of credentials by the aliens. This is such an obvious stuff up
on my part
that I will have to correct it before going any further. The aide is more
of a translator
and is mostly anonymous in such matters, but he gives his name during the
meeting as
the plot unfolds and he is revealed as being deeply involved.
> Minor problem: You need to know the General's rank; "General" is too
> general.
Given that it is a 'cameo' role really, I hadn't thought it important to be
that specific,
but I see what you mean. I'll look at that.
> You also need to know the aide's rank.
That comes out in the next section as does his history and involvement. He
gets promoted.
> And a fair amount about
> this particular military force.
Actually, not a whole lot, the story is not a 'Starship Trooper' style war
story, but more of a
story about a soldier with some particular knowledge that puts him in a
unique position of
responsibility. There is combat involved, mostly small unit stuff on the
surface, and battles
in space are mentioned but I'm not planning to include much of that in
detail. There is one
sequence of evasion in a space ship involving some use of deception, but
that's pretty much
the space warfare side of it from the protagonists experiences. (Though he
has been involved
in some small actions *prior* to the events in the story.
> Some of what you need to know, you can
> find in books. (I recommend basing it on the Australian Air Force.)
Actually, he's a Marine. (Federation). RAAF ranks would be inappropriate.
His previous posting was on a small warship where he was the OC the Marine
platoon
which is responsible for boarding and repelling boarders etc much as it is
now and for
taking part in surface actions (which is how he got involved in this).
I've based the rank structure more on a (hopefully) generic army model, not
country specific,
but basically Pvt Cpl Sgt Woff Lt Cpt Maj Lt Col Col etc. Ship ranks are
naval and I have used the
British/Australian model ie PO CPO Mid SubLt Lt LtCdr Cdr Cpt etc where they
appear.
I have some military background.
> Other stuff -- how things actually work, as opposed to how they work on
> paper -- you'll need to get from people who have the relevant experience.
I've tried to make the technology believable, but without going into in
depth explanations of
how it *works*, but concentrating more on how it's *used* so I don't bog
down in 500 words
of 'tech speak'. Some is unavoidable, but where it occurs, it generally
discusses the use and results
of the technology rather than the actual how.
> You also need to know the alien prisoner's exact rank -- both what it is
> in her culture's terms, and how it translates into human-culture terms.
Yes. That does come out later.
> By the way -- is it simply coincidence that both of these first two
> characters are male, or is the military organization mostly-male?
The main protagonist is male. The military organisation is not gender
specific, though
it's not really obvious one way or the other. The alien society is a
matriarchy, though it
treats males mostly as equals, indeed the alien reps are both male, despite
this. This is
done deliberately. Both the Alien Minndr'aa and the alien head of state are
female as is
the Captain of an alien ship he travels on. There is a mix of male and
female in the story.
Females tend to be more prevalent in the alien powerbase and males more
prevalent in
the human powerbase, but not exclusively in either, which is much how human
society is
now in developed nations.
> If the latter, the trend is going in the other direction.
Quite.
> The big problem: This is too big a lump all at once.
Ok.
> I think it works better to start with a small bit of the story-world and
> expand from that.
I think most of what you are asking for does happen though it's in the next
500 words
or so. I'm already considering looking at the conference again and trying to
speed up
the opening and identification of the main characters.
> Tolkien did that one way in Lord of the Rings. (Many current fantasy
> writers would have begun with a preface giving all the history relevant
> to the story -- plus Sauron's blood type, whether orcs like ketchup....
> Tolkien's preface is about the history of the Shire.)
Yes, I know what you mean there.
> Larry Niven did it another way in Destiny's Road.
Hmm haven't read that one.
Thanks for your time.
Geoff in Oz
Phil
Whereas in English syllables are "stressed" or "unstressed", in
Japanese, all syllables are stressed equally, but some are pronounced
with a higher pitch than others. In theory, this allows you to
distinguish between homophones such as, to use a famous example, "hashi"
(bridge), "hashi" (chopsticks) and "hashi" (edge, side) -- one is
HA-shi, one is ha-SHI and one is (I think) ha-shi (might be HA-SHI,
though). In practice, the distinction is rarely noticeable and even
varies depending on region and which dialect is being spoken, or
sometimes shift to harmonise better with neighbouring words. Despite
having lived here for six years now, and using the language everyday, I
still can't actually manage to remember which pitch pattern is
associated with which homophone, relying on context to determine which
meaning is being used, and I've been assured that native speakers
generally do the same.
Moving on to the topic of the original opening: I'd probably be
curious enough to read a little further on, but the following points
threatened to stop me cold:
I realise this will likely sound harsh, especially from a new poster,
but the pseudo-alien language reads, to me, like English grammar hiding
behind unusual letter combinations and too many apostrophes whose
function is unclear (glottal stop? aspiration of preceding consonant?
something else?) The later post about how truly alien its supposed to be
was interesting, but that's not how the samples actually came across (to
me, but then, while I'm not a pure linguist, my training was in
translation and did include some linguistics).
The analogy with bushidô. I live in Japan. I'm a long-time amateur
Japanese historian. I've seen bushidô misunderstood, misrepresented and
misapplied so many times that I automatically have a bad reaction to
people using it outside of its proper context. The "I explained
bushido..." line, in particularly, is one that might make me decide to
give up on the story -- this early in, before we know the character
making the comment better, it ends up coming across, to me, as "the
author only has a very superficial and innacurate understanding of the
concept"; if it came after the character was fully established as
someone who might say that kind of thing, it might work better. Besides,
would that code really be used as an analogy in the (far?) future?
Other than that, nothing came across as particularly bad, but nothing
was particular exciting and pulling me in either. I'd probably at least
read a couple more paragraphs to see if it draws me in, though.
--
Phil
"Witty or informative statement pending... the Muse is on strike"
Zeborah
> "Zeborah" <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1gi1drk.1l29sqw1vlfmkgN%zeb...@gmail.com...
> > The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
> >
> > > They don't pitch syllables like the Japanese, but the positional
> >
> > What do you mean by "pitch syllables"?
>
> Pitched languages like Japanese and Chinese alter the meaning of words
> according to the pitch of the voice on a syllable.
Ah; I thought you meant that, but wasn't sure. As far as I'm aware--
<snip> of what I was going to say; Phil has contradicted me and he
clearly knows better.
However, it mightn't be the best example -- given that I (briefly, at
age 7) learnt some Japanese, and that I studied linguistics at uni for
four years, and *visited* Japan for a week, all without ever being aware
before now that tone might play a role in determining meaning. From
Phil's description, it does sound like it plays a much lesser role in
Japanese than in Mandarin, Cantonese, Thai, etc, particularly if native
speakers rely on context more than on tone. So I think one of those
(particularly a Chinese one) would be a more obvious and uncontroversial
example.
> English means the same in a monotone or if you pitch alternate syllables
> high or low. It might sound wierd but it doesn't alter the meaning. In
> Chinese or Japanese it completely alters the meaning of the word. IIRC,
> Mandarin has 3 pitches and Cantonese 5 not sure about Japanese but I think
> it's 3.
Mandarin has four plus a neutral one, so that I'm personally tempted to
count it five. Cantonese... I've never studied, and I think it's
counted differently by different people, but I think I've heard 7-9.
Zeborah
Zeborah
> "Khiem Tran" <nguyen_k...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:2nd21iF...@uni-berlin.de...
[If everything goes well...]
> > the other Minndr'a really will act
> > honourably), then the beginning sounds a bit redundant.
>
> Ok, didn't think about it from that viewpoint. I see what you mean.
There was a discussion here some number of months ago in which
someone(s) said that, if you show the characters making a plan, and then
show them carrying out the plan perfectly, it's rather repetitive. You
can either show them planning (and then everything goes pear-shaped in
the action) or skip the planning and just show how it all works out.
...Or you could show them planning and then skip the action with an
"After they rescued the prince, they all sat down around the campfire,"
but that might seem anticlimactic; depends.
There's probably some way of showing them planning, and then carrying
out their plan without a flaw -- just to play with readers' expectations
-- but it'd be hard to keep interesting. You'd probably have to be
careful to have the plan-scene and the action-scene focus on very
different things.
> Yes they do. I should point out that though it might seem he is going to
> be the protagonist here, in fact, the translator (who is a junior officer)
> is. This happens about halfway through the conference and the story
> follows him from that point.
What point of view are you using for the story? Omniscient? Multiple
third? Third person focused on one character (which)?
<checks back>
Your first sentence implies omniscient (since it's looking at the
General from the outside and from the inside at once). That's a hard
one to do well; have you chosen it for a reason, or did it just come out
that way?
Zeborah
The CO
"Alma Hromic Deckert" <ang...@vaxer.net> wrote in message
news:edg3h05a6vfto4lqk...@4ax.com...
ROFL!
Not an image that came to me to be honest....
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"Phil" <tls_...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:yyhbzgl1jl76$.1jszuflidkje4$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Moving on to the topic of the original opening: I'd probably be
> curious enough to read a little further on, but the following points
> threatened to stop me cold:
ok.
> I realise this will likely sound harsh, especially from a new poster,
> but the pseudo-alien language reads, to me, like English grammar hiding
> behind unusual letter combinations and too many apostrophes whose
> function is unclear (glottal stop? aspiration of preceding consonant?
> something else?)
I was thinking more along the lines of a short pause.
> The later post about how truly alien its supposed to be
> was interesting, but that's not how the samples actually came across (to
> me, but then, while I'm not a pure linguist, my training was in
> translation and did include some linguistics).
Well I have no training in either. But the language is continually coming
up as
an annoyance to readers so I will have to rethink it somewhat and see if I
can
eliminate the need to actually use more than a word or two except for proper
names of characters - might also have to reconsider the form - it appears
the
apostrophe laden version is not well received so I will have to keep trying
different forms til I find something that works without being annoying.
> The analogy with bushidô. I live in Japan. I'm a long-time amateur
> Japanese historian. I've seen bushidô misunderstood, misrepresented and
> misapplied so many times that I automatically have a bad reaction to
> people using it outside of its proper context. The "I explained
> bushido..." line, in particularly, is one that might make me decide to
> give up on the story -- this early in, before we know the character
> making the comment better, it ends up coming across, to me, as "the
> author only has a very superficial and innacurate understanding of the
> concept";
Ok let me take that as two parts. The *character* in an undergrad in
anthropology whose parents were anthropologists specialising in alien
civilisations. One would assume that he had a reasonable knowledge for
the comparison, and as such he would see the parallels in the alien society.
That said, it might be overdoing it, perhaps it would be better for the
reader
to *see* the parallels rather than highlighting them so early.
The *author* is not a specialist in Japanese history but I believe my level
of understanding is a *little* more than superficial and that what I do know
is
accurate. My emphasis in the story is more on the Samurai concept of duty
and submergence of the needs of oneself to that duty to their (in this case)
extended family unit.
That and the general concept of 'death before dishonour'.
I'd be pleased to have your input on this, as I certainly do not claim any
expertise,
amateur or otherwise in Japanese history and I have not tried to overreach
my
understanding by getting into heavy detail.
> if it came after the character was fully established as
> someone who might say that kind of thing, it might work better. Besides,
> would that code really be used as an analogy in the (far?) future?
This character might, due to his background. But that doesn't come out til
later.
> Other than that, nothing came across as particularly bad, but nothing
> was particular exciting and pulling me in either. I'd probably at least
> read a couple more paragraphs to see if it draws me in, though.
Fair enough. The action doesn't start until the next 500 or so words.
Hopefully that
would be enough to grab your interest.
I'm going to reexamine the language from scratch, it seems to be the most
common
theme in the critiques so far.
Khiem Tran
> > If everything ends
> > up going to heck, then the opening is probably just right. I guess the
> thing
> > is, despite the General's unpreparedness, I'm expecting things to go
well.
> >
> Yes they do. I should point out that though it might seem he is going to
be
> the protagonist here, in fact, the translator (who is a junior officer)
is.
> This happens about halfway through the conference and the story follows
> him from that point.
Yes, I got that from your original post. That might have influenced my
expectations of what would happen next as I wasn't sure whether the reader
would know it from the start ("He was a up-and-coming military translator
with a secret past. She was a warlike alien with a speech defect and a heart
that ached for...")
If the meeting is going to be a success, then another option is to play up
the chance of failure more beforehand. You do some of this already, but
reader expectations are funny things, especially for this reader. There are
various story conventions that say that some things are more likely than
others and they usually have nothing to do with real life probabilities
(consider how many times that last desperate million-to-one shot ever
fails.) A translator who sounds just a bit too overconfident (to the
General's ears at least), or a General just a little bit further out of his
depth in diplomacy might just tip the balance over to "this is going to blow
up in their faces.".
Khiem.
The CO
> Yes, I got that from your original post. That might have influenced my
> expectations of what would happen next as I wasn't sure whether the reader
> would know it from the start ("He was a up-and-coming military translator
> with a secret past.
Actually, he's not a translator by choice, nor was that his job,
prior to this he was just another junior officer running a platoon
(on a warship - but still - nothing special - it's his background that
makes him special - which the military didn't know about til the incidents
that lead to the meeting occurred.
> She was a warlike alien with a speech defect and a heart
> that ached for...")
None of the above. Seriously.
Well, ok, yes, she's alien, but neither her nor her race are warlike.
The state of war is due to deception on the part of a third race.
> If the meeting is going to be a success, then another option is to play up
> the chance of failure more beforehand. You do some of this already, but
> reader expectations are funny things, especially for this reader. There
are
> various story conventions that say that some things are more likely than
> others and they usually have nothing to do with real life probabilities
> (consider how many times that last desperate million-to-one shot ever
> fails.) A translator who sounds just a bit too overconfident (to the
> General's ears at least), or a General just a little bit further out of
his
> depth in diplomacy might just tip the balance over to "this is going to
blow
> up in their faces.".
Hmmm, ok, I'll take that into consideration, there are some heavy mods
needed
here anyway, so I'll consider that aspect as well.
I think what you are driving at is that we could make the story more
entertaining
by building up to a (negative in this case ) outcome then having it all come
out well
due to some unknown or unexpected aspects....
Hmm, I think I like that.
Thanks.
Geoff in Oz
Brian Pickrell
> Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
>
> Geoff in Oz
Hi Geoff,
It's not crap but it's what they call an infodump--the characters seem
to be mouthpieces for a lecture on the plot situation and don't show
any personality of their own. The translator volunteers a long,
articulate lecture and the general just stands there and harrumphs.
It doesn't strike me as a believable interaction between the two
people.
What would this briefing really be like, in terms of personalities?
You've got a soldier who isn't prepared to give a briefing and isn't
used to dealing with generals; you've got a general who doesn't know
much about the situation but he does know how to get information from
his people and how to make decisions. My guess is that the soldier
would either go into digressions or clam up, while the general would
alternately prompt him and interrupt him to keep the conversation on
track--or just to remind him who's in charge. I don't believe the
general would sit still for an at-the-moment unnecessary lecture on
vocabulary.
If you can dump the necessary plot information in the context of a
give-and-take between believable characters, the scene will be ever so
much more interesting to read.
Cheers,
Dan Goodman
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message
Let me be more specific: 1) As a reader, I need the aide's name NOW.
If this is the first scene, I need the name IN THIS SCENE, preferably as
soon as he's referred to. 2) It seems likely to me that the General
would call him by name. Check with someone personally familiar with
military etiquete on that, though.
>> Minor problem: You need to know the General's rank; "General" is too
>> general.
>
> Given that it is a 'cameo' role really, I hadn't thought it important
> to be that specific, but I see what you mean. I'll look at that.
As a reader, I need it NOW. I suspect that readers with a fair amount
of military experience will also need it right from the start,
>> You also need to know the aide's rank.
>
> That comes out in the next section as does his history and
> involvement. He gets promoted.
Again -- as a reader, I need that information NOW.
>> And a fair amount about this particular military force.
>
> Actually, not a whole lot, the story is not a 'Starship Trooper' style
> war story, but more of a story about a soldier with some particular
> knowledge that puts > him in a unique position of responsibility.
As a reader, I need enough detail about this particular military force
to give me a feeling of solidity. Enough that it doesn't come across as
"generic military force -- the same kind as in umpteen stories written
by people who may be vague on the difference between air force and coast
guard and are totally unaware marines are in a separate organization
from the army."
Generally speaking: As a reader, I need a lot of information _which
does not directly affect the story_.
> There is combat involved, mostly small unit stuff on the surface, and
> battles in space are mentioned but I'm not planning to include much of
> that in detail. There is one sequence of evasion in a space ship
> involving some use of deception, but that's pretty much the space
> warfare side of it from the protagonists experiences. (Though he has
> been involved in some small actions *prior* to the events in the
> story.
>
>> Some of what you need to know, you can
>> find in books. (I recommend basing it on the Australian Air Force.)
>
> Actually, he's a Marine. (Federation). RAAF ranks would be
> inappropriate. His previous posting was on a small warship where he
> was the OC the Marine platoon which is responsible for boarding and
> repelling boarders etc much as it is now and for taking part in
> surface actions (which is how he got involved in this).
Okay -- get into the first scene that he's a Marine.
> I've based the rank structure more on a (hopefully) generic army
> model, not country specific,
Bad move; "generic" is exactly what I, as a reader, want to avoid.
> but basically Pvt Cpl Sgt Woff Lt Cpt Maj Lt Col Col etc. Ship ranks
> are naval and I have used the British/Australian model ie PO CPO Mid
> SubLt Lt LtCdr Cdr Cpt etc where they appear. I have some military
> background.
>
>> Other stuff -- how things actually work, as opposed to how they work
>> on paper -- you'll need to get from people who have the relevant
>> experience.
>
> I've tried to make the technology believable,
Clarification: by how things work, I meant how the _organization_ works.
> but without going into in depth explanations of how it *works*, but
> concentrating more on how it's *used* so I don't bog down in 500 words
> of 'tech speak'. Some is unavoidable, but where it occurs, it
> generally discusses the use and results of the technology rather than
> the actual how.
>
>> You also need to know the alien prisoner's exact rank -- both what it
>> is in her culture's terms, and how it translates into human-culture
>> terms.
>
> Yes. That does come out later.
Again: when I say I need this information, unless I specify that it can
come later, I mean that I want it now.
>> By the way -- is it simply coincidence that both of these first two
>> characters are male, or is the military organization mostly-male?
>
> The main protagonist is male. The military organisation is not gender
> specific, though it's not really obvious one way or the other.
For many readers, it will _need_ to be obvious.
> The alien society is a matriarchy, though it treats males mostly as
> equals, indeed the alien reps are both male, despite this. This is
> done deliberately. Both the Alien Minndr'aa and the alien head of
> state are female as is the Captain of an alien ship he travels on.
> There is a mix of male and female in the story. Females tend to be
> more prevalent in the alien powerbase and males more prevalent in the
> human powerbase, but not exclusively in either, which is much how
> human society is now in developed nations.
>
>> If the latter, the trend is going in the other direction.
>
> Quite.
>
>> The big problem: This is too big a lump all at once.
>
> Ok.
>
>> I think it works better to start with a small bit of the story-world
>> and expand from that.
>
> I think most of what you are asking for does happen though it's in the
> next 500 words or so.
I said "start with." Which means _before any of the big, complicated
stuff_.
> I'm already considering looking at the conference again and trying to
> speed up the opening and identification of the main characters.
>
>> Tolkien did that one way in Lord of the Rings. (Many current fantasy
>> writers would have begun with a preface giving all the history
>> relevant to the story -- plus Sauron's blood type, whether orcs like
>> ketchup.... Tolkien's preface is about the history of the Shire.)
>
> Yes, I know what you mean there.
>
>> Larry Niven did it another way in Destiny's Road.
>
> Hmm haven't read that one.
>
> Thanks for your time.
Welcome.
Phil
[Language not coming across as alien to me due to some training in
linguistics]
> Well I have no training in either. But the language is continually coming
> up as an annoyance to readers so I will have to rethink it somewhat
> and see if I can eliminate the need to actually use more than a word
> or two except for proper names of characters - might also have to
Given one of your further explanations elsewhere in the thread about the
limited use of the language, I suspect you wouldn't lose anything if you
limited it to character names and perhaps core cultural concepts that can't
be easily explained through a short English phrase.
> reconsider the form - it appears the apostrophe laden version is not
> well received so I will have to keep trying different forms til I find
> something that works without being annoying.
Apostrophes have worn out their welcome due to their overuse in bad
fantasy and science-fiction as an "easy way" to make names "exotic".
>> The analogy with bushidô. I live in Japan. I'm a long-time amateur
>> Japanese historian. I've seen bushidô misunderstood, misrepresented and
>> misapplied so many times that I automatically have a bad reaction to
>> people using it outside of its proper context. The "I explained
>> bushido..." line, in particularly, is one that might make me decide to
>> give up on the story -- this early in, before we know the character
>> making the comment better, it ends up coming across, to me, as "the
>> author only has a very superficial and innacurate understanding of the
>> concept";
>
> Ok let me take that as two parts. The *character* in an undergrad in
> anthropology whose parents were anthropologists specialising in alien
> civilisations. One would assume that he had a reasonable knowledge for
> the comparison, and as such he would see the parallels in the alien society.
Fair enough, but since I have no way of knowing that this early in the
story, it wouldn't mitigate my initial reaction.
> That said, it might be overdoing it, perhaps it would be better for the
> reader to *see* the parallels rather than highlighting them so early.
I think that would be much better, for two reasons. The first is that
your chosen parallel won't necessarily be know, or properly understood, to
your potential readers. The second is that there are a suprising number of
similarities between warriors' views of honour, by whatever name, across
time and cultures, so readers could draw their own parallels based on
whatever warrior culture they're most familiar with (or just take it all at
face value if they're not familiar with any).
> The *author* is not a specialist in Japanese history but I believe my level
> of understanding is a *little* more than superficial and that what I do know
> is accurate.
Too early to tell, but maybe. My knee-jerk reaction isn't to you,
specifically, but rather to the generic author whose story I'm reading for
the first time who makes such an allusion early in. And it is, for me, a
knee-jerk reaction, which kicks in automatically before I can more
reasonably assess whether the reaction was actually warranted. It comes
from having seen just about everything related to samurai mangled,
misunderstood, misrepresented and what have you in various media just a
little too often.
> My emphasis in the story is more on the Samurai concept of duty
> and submergence of the needs of oneself to that duty to their (in this case)
> extended family unit.
That's a little bit too narrow to label "bushido", though there is a
connection.
> That and the general concept of 'death before dishonour'.
I think that's part of the similarities across warrior cultures I
mentioned above. The samurai view of the relationship between death and
dishonour isn't quite that clear cut.
> I'd be pleased to have your input on this, as I certainly do not claim any
> expertise, amateur or otherwise in Japanese history and I have not
> tried to overreach my understanding by getting into heavy detail.
I'd be happy to help, but be warned that the topic is very, very
confusing and muddled. Trying to talk about bushido as if it were a single
code of honour is a bit like trying to talk about all of Christianity as if
it were a single doctrine agreed upon by all of its adherents.
>> if it came after the character was fully established as
>> someone who might say that kind of thing, it might work better. Besides,
>> would that code really be used as an analogy in the (far?) future?
>
> This character might, due to his background. But that doesn't come out til
> later.
In this part, I was actually wondering whether the analogy would be
meaningful to non-specialists, such as the General. Would their society
still have enough of a samurai mythos in its general consciousness for the
reference to be recognisable to the average citizen, or the average soldier
or officer?
[Not drawn in yet, but would likely keep reading a little further]
> Fair enough. The action doesn't start until the next 500 or so words.
> Hopefully that would be enough to grab your interest.
Quite possibly. I'm actually pretty patient when I read, and will accept
a fair amount of initial exposition as long as I get some sense that one
things shift into higher gear, all of that exposition will actually prove
meaningful.
> I'm going to reexamine the language from scratch, it seems to be the most
> common theme in the critiques so far.
Not everyone can be a Tolkien, able to create convincing languages. :)
Phil
> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
>>
>> Pitched languages like Japanese and Chinese alter the meaning of words
>> according to the pitch of the voice on a syllable.
>
> Ah; I thought you meant that, but wasn't sure. As far as I'm aware--
[snip]
> before now that tone might play a role in determining meaning. From
> Phil's description, it does sound like it plays a much lesser role in
> Japanese than in Mandarin, Cantonese, Thai, etc, particularly if native
> speakers rely on context more than on tone. So I think one of those
> (particularly a Chinese one) would be a more obvious and uncontroversial
> example.
Well, now I see where the confusion lies. Chinese and Japanese are
totally dissimilar and when dealing with languages, pitch and tone are not
interchangeable terms..
Pitch refers to a type of accent (at the syllable in a word level), and
in that respect is closer to stress, which is another type of accent.
Tone, on the other hand, if I've understood the concept correctly, is
just as integral to a word as the vowel or consonant sounds.
So, to return to my "hashi" example, if, for instance, I'm giving
directions in Japanese and say "hashi o watatte...", (cross the bridge,
then...), it doesn't matter whether I pronounce HA-shi, ha-SHI or HASHI.
In Chinese, however, most words are, I believe, monosyllabic (at least to
English-native ears) and changing the tone in which a word is spoken is a
misnomer, in a way: changing the tone means changing the word you're
saying, in much the same way that, in English, changing the vowel sound
between f_r (four, fair, fear, fir) means we've changed the word
completely.
Despite geographic proximity (and the historical borrowing of the Chinese
writing system by the Japanese) the two languages are utterly unrelated.
>> English means the same in a monotone or if you pitch alternate syllables
>> high or low. It might sound wierd but it doesn't alter the meaning. In
>> Chinese or Japanese it completely alters the meaning of the word. IIRC,
>> Mandarin has 3 pitches and Cantonese 5 not sure about Japanese but I think
>> it's 3.
Japanese only has two pitches, high and low, but they're not the same as
tones. Where Japanese can trip people up (at least for speakers of English)
is with its long vs. short vowel distinction. You could accidentally end up
saying "prisoner" when you meant to say "husband", for instance... :)
> Mandarin has four plus a neutral one, so that I'm personally tempted to
> count it five. Cantonese... I've never studied, and I think it's
> counted differently by different people, but I think I've heard 7-9.
I thought the neutral one was one of the four, but I've never studied
mandarin, so I'm willing to take your word for it. I've seen mention of
either 7 or 9 for Thai somewhere.
Zeborah
> Well, now I see where the confusion lies. Chinese and Japanese are
> totally dissimilar and when dealing with languages, pitch and tone are not
> interchangeable terms..
>
> Pitch refers to a type of accent (at the syllable in a word level), and
> in that respect is closer to stress, which is another type of accent.
Oh; got it now.
> Tone, on the other hand, if I've understood the concept correctly, is
> just as integral to a word as the vowel or consonant sounds.
Yes.
> So, to return to my "hashi" example, if, for instance, I'm giving
> directions in Japanese and say "hashi o watatte...", (cross the bridge,
> then...), it doesn't matter whether I pronounce HA-shi, ha-SHI or HASHI.
>
> In Chinese, however, most words are, I believe, monosyllabic (at least to
> English-native ears)
Common misconception. :-) A lot of words are monosyllabic -- but a lot
of English words are too. A lot of words are disyllabic or trisyllabic;
of those most, but not all, can be reasonably broken down into
monosyllabic morphemes; but again, so can English words (eg morph +
eme). There's a great essay on Mark Rosenfelder's site that makes it so
much clearer (and interesting) than I ever could:
http://www.zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm
(Though it does tend to leave one with the thought, "What were those
people *smoking* when they came up with this idea?")
>and changing the tone in which a word is spoken is a
> misnomer, in a way: changing the tone means changing the word you're
> saying, in much the same way that, in English, changing the vowel sound
> between f_r (four, fair, fear, fir) means we've changed the word
> completely.
Yup.
> Japanese only has two pitches, high and low, but they're not the same as
> tones. Where Japanese can trip people up (at least for speakers of English)
> is with its long vs. short vowel distinction. You could accidentally end up
> saying "prisoner" when you meant to say "husband", for instance... :)
A lot of European romantic poetry (from at least as far back as medieval
times right up to modern love songs) could benefit from such a useful
wordplay. :-)
Are the long/short distinctions represented in kana? It's a distinction
I'm not very good at, though I've had to attempt it for speaking NZ
Maaori(1) and Mongolian; I'd fail miserably if it weren't marked
somehow.
(1) Not a typo. That's a long 'a', which should have a bar over it, or
umlauts as second-best; neither of which works in plain ASCII, so 'aa'
is third-best.
> > Mandarin has four plus a neutral one, so that I'm personally tempted to
> > count it five. Cantonese... I've never studied, and I think it's
> > counted differently by different people, but I think I've heard 7-9.
>
> I thought the neutral one was one of the four, but I've never studied
> mandarin, so I'm willing to take your word for it.
The neutral's an extra one: there's high, rising, falling-rising, and
falling, then the neutral. (There's a phonetic rule that a
falling-rising tone will be pronounced as a rising tone if it precedes
another falling-rising tone.)
Zeborah
Dan Goodman
> In Chinese, however, most words are, I believe, monosyllabic (at least
> to English-native ears) and changing the tone in which a word is
> spoken is a misnomer, in a way: changing the tone means changing the
> word you're saying, in much the same way that, in English, changing
> the vowel sound between f_r (four, fair, fear, fir) means we've
> changed the word completely.
>
Note that there are vowel distinctions made in _some_ forms of American
English, but not in others: Don/Dawn, Aaron/Erin, Mary/marry/merry,
horse/hoarse, pen/pan/pin.
Elizabeth
wrote in <news:41106...@news.iprimus.com.au>:
> I guess I really just want to know if it reads like crap and/or whether it
> would make you want to read on.
I had a lot of trouble with the lack of paragraphs - not sure if that's a
copy and paste problem or not.
The situation sounds interesting.
The big thing is I would like a hint of where we are. Is this a spaceship,
station, planet, Earth?
I also wondered why the general was negotiating if he's not a diplomat. And
no one has names.
--
Elizabeth
polly.callan at earthlink dot net
http://home.earthlink.net/~polly.callan
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pollyc/
David Goldfarb
Zeborah <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
[Japanese vowels]
>Are the long/short distinctions represented in kana? It's a distinction
>I'm not very good at, though I've had to attempt it for speaking NZ
>Maaori(1) and Mongolian; I'd fail miserably if it weren't marked
>somehow.
Yes. In hiragana, typically a lengthened vowel is represented by
inserting another one of the relevant vowel -- frex, "biru" would
be "bi" + "ru", while "biiru" with a long i would be "bi" + "i" + "ru".
For some reason, a long o (which is extremely common) is shown by
putting in a u rather than an o. So if you see a transliterated
Japanese word with an "ou" in it, chances are it's a long o.
In katakana a long vowel is represented by appending a dash.
--
David Goldfarb |"I want instant gratification -- and I'm
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | willing to wait for it."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Phil
> Phil <tls_...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
[My falling for the Chinese words are monosyllabic misconception]
> Common misconception. :-) A lot of words are monosyllabic -- but a lot
> of English words are too. A lot of words are disyllabic or trisyllabic;
> of those most, but not all, can be reasonably broken down into
> monosyllabic morphemes; but again, so can English words (eg morph +
I knew I should have listened to the little voice in the back of my head
that said the monosyllabic Chinese was an urban myth. Always listen to the
strangle little voices!
> eme). There's a great essay on Mark Rosenfelder's site that makes it so
> much clearer (and interesting) than I ever could:
>
> http://www.zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm
How ironic. I was over there not too long ago reading the Language
Construction Kit, but didn't read that one. I probably should.
> (Though it does tend to leave one with the thought, "What were those
> people *smoking* when they came up with this idea?")
:-) As opposed to, say, "what were these people thinking when they came
up with English?"
[Japanese trips people up on the long/short vowels, "prisoner" vs.
"husband", for instance]
> A lot of European romantic poetry (from at least as far back as medieval
> times right up to modern love songs) could benefit from such a useful
> wordplay. :-)
A "free man" takes on new shades of meaning! Well, not that much, because
since the words don't actually sound the same to the Japanese, they don't
tend to make puns based on those distinctions. Foreigners learning the
language, though, can prove quite entertaining (another possibly apocryphal
tale involves a foreigner mixing up "coach, mentor" and "anus" when
greeting his colleague's superior...)
> Are the long/short distinctions represented in kana? It's a distinction
Absolutely. Every syllable (mora, technically) is written out in kana,
and the long vowels are actually two syllables.
> I'm not very good at, though I've had to attempt it for speaking NZ
> Maaori(1) and Mongolian; I'd fail miserably if it weren't marked
> somehow.
I haven't had trouble distinguishing them in speech for a long time, but
roman alphabet transliterations of Japanese that don't mark the long vowels
never fail to trip me up.
Downthread, Dan Goodman wrote:
>> word you're saying, in much the same way that, in English, changing
>> the vowel sound between f_r (four, fair, fear, fir) means we've
>> changed the word completely.
>>
> Note that there are vowel distinctions made in _some_ forms of American
> English, but not in others: Don/Dawn, Aaron/Erin, Mary/marry/merry,
> horse/hoarse, pen/pan/pin.
True. There are always lots of shades of grey rather than nice, clear
areas of black and white when dealing with such things in language. And in
English, we get bonus multicoloured polka dots and stripes, too!
The CO
"Brian Pickrell" <bobth...@brandx.net> wrote in message
news:eed75299.04080...@posting.google.com...
> "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in message
news:<41106...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
> > Opening 500 or so words of unfinished (currently @ 36,000 words)
> > novel/novella. [...]
> >
> > Geoff in Oz
>
> Hi Geoff,
>
> It's not crap but it's what they call an infodump--the characters seem
> to be mouthpieces for a lecture on the plot situation and don't show
> any personality of their own. The translator volunteers a long,
> articulate lecture and the general just stands there and harrumphs.
> It doesn't strike me as a believable interaction between the two
> people.
Ah! Yes, I see your point. Needs work obviously.
> What would this briefing really be like, in terms of personalities?
> You've got a soldier who isn't prepared to give a briefing and isn't
> used to dealing with generals; you've got a general who doesn't know
> much about the situation but he does know how to get information from
> his people and how to make decisions. My guess is that the soldier
> would either go into digressions or clam up, while the general would
> alternately prompt him and interrupt him to keep the conversation on
> track--or just to remind him who's in charge. I don't believe the
> general would sit still for an at-the-moment unnecessary lecture on
> vocabulary.
Probably right.
> If you can dump the necessary plot information in the context of a
> give-and-take between believable characters, the scene will be ever so
> much more interesting to read.
Ok, thanks for that. Obviously there is a long way to go.
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
Tim S
<click phonemes>
>
> There are several varieties of click, including the one
> represented in English by 'tsk!', the sort of clucking one
> made to horses that uses the side of the tongue, and the
> bilabial kissing click, but in my experience none of them is
> normally represented by an apostrophe.
IPA represents them by what I take to be various warped variations on the
letter 't'.
> I've seen the
> apostrophe used to represent a glottal stop -- the sound in
> the middle of 'uh-oh!' -- and to indicate that a preceding
> consonant is palatalized, but that's about it. One could
> use them to indicate that a preceding stop consonant was an
> ejective or an implosive, I suppose.
Or that the next syllable is stressed... :-)
Tim
Tina Hall
Please keep in mind that this is just a reader's opinion. :)
> I guess I really just want to know if it reads like crap and/or
> whether it would make you want to read on.
I like it, mostly as it is, and would read on. At least until I get
to see this alien and can determine whether they're interesting. :)
> "[...]
> They'd hinted at his hasty briefing that the translator was a
> P'ra'af expert as well as the only human known to be truly fluent
> in their complex language and that he should 'very seriously
> consider' any advice he gave. Hmmph, I wonder if he realises
> just how much we are depending on his knowledge? I sure as hell
> don't know much about them, he thought grimly. [...]"
That's the General thinking, right? (Doesn't fit the aide, because
it's the aide's knowledge about the aliens that they depend on.) But
you said the aide is the protagonist, which doesn't match with
seeing the General's thoughts here...
I think there's a bit of redundancy in pointing out the alien
culture, it sounds as if some stuff is repeated. I'd assume the
General would 'get' the message first time round (if he's got
brains, which he should as a General, at least in fiction :) ), or
else a bit more obvious skepticism would be helpful to explain why
the aide repeats stuff that he's already mentioned. (Or maybe he's
nervous for some reason, and that needs to be pointed out?)
I've read some of the other replies and mostly don't agree with
them...
I'd not like any military backround stuff added, especially if it's
not even relevant to the story. Similar with the world's backround.
I don't need that detailed there, and would probably be bored with
being hit with it in the opening. Lack of names and rank doesn't
bother me, either. Any details on rank would just be wasted on me as
I'm not familiar with this stuff. Adding them would scream 'military
story', when that might not even be true. When the military is just
backround, keeping it generic is just fine. (And when it isn't
backround, it'd probably not be a story I'd want to read.)
Someone else commented on the build-up. It looks as if things would
go well, and just because of other (annoying) storylines usually
going downhill when things look well I _dreaded_ that this'll take
the same annoying way. I was rather relieved to see (in one of your
replies to another post) that that is not the case and the aide's
impression of the alien is correct. I'd cherish a story where things
don't go downhill because some selfrighteous idiot thinks he knows
all, but instead the characters actually have a clue. :)
I do somewhat agree on the alien language terms; my eyes just slide
past anything un-pronounceable, so if a word's mentioned again later
I won't recognize it. You mentioned somewhere that you intend the
apostrophes as short pauses, so why not replace them with spaces,
and use two spaces between actual words in that alien language? Turn
"P'ra'af" into something like "P-h ra af" ("P-h" because otherwise
the P would be read 'pi' or 'pee' or something - like the single
letter is pronounced). Just an idea...
--
Tina - Living in the Twilight Zone.
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of an insane mind!!!!
(Apologies to Terry Pratchett.)
CrossPoint/FreeXP v3.40 RC3. Usenet/Fidonet gateway, no internet access.
Tina Hall
>> In Chinese, however, most words are, I believe, monosyllabic (at
>> least to English-native ears) and changing the tone in which a
>> word is spoken is a misnomer, in a way: changing the tone means
>> changing the word you're saying, in much the same way that, in
>> English, changing the vowel sound between f_r (four, fair, fear,
>> fir) means we've changed the word completely.
>>
> Note that there are vowel distinctions made in _some_ forms of
> American English, but not in others: Don/Dawn, Aaron/Erin,
> Mary/marry/merry, horse/hoarse, pen/pan/pin.
Do you mean that they all sound the same in some American dialects?
Because to me the only ones that are very close at all are 'Mary/
marry/merry', but they're still different. The others are all
distinctly different, especially 'Aaron/Erin' and 'pen/pan/pin' have
just the consonants in common.
--
Tina - What context?
Elyvilon says: Go forth and aid the weak!"
Trog says: Kill them all! (Dungeon Crawl)
The CO
"Tina Hall" <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org...
> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
>
> Please keep in mind that this is just a reader's opinion. :)
No problem. I've been very pleased to see all the comments by
the people here and it has been very helpful to me.
I'm probably not going to be able to respond individually to all
the crits I've received so I might use this post to say a very big
THANK YOU
To all of the people who took the time to read my work and offer
advice and criticism.
> > I guess I really just want to know if it reads like crap and/or
> > whether it would make you want to read on.
>
> I like it, mostly as it is, and would read on. At least until I get
> to see this alien and can determine whether they're interesting. :)
Well, I think they are interesting, but then I am a bit biased :^)
> > They'd hinted at his hasty briefing that the translator was a
> > P'ra'af expert as well as the only human known to be truly fluent
> > in their complex language and that he should 'very seriously
> > consider' any advice he gave. Hmmph, I wonder if he realises
> > just how much we are depending on his knowledge? I sure as hell
> > don't know much about them, he thought grimly. [...]"
> That's the General thinking, right? (Doesn't fit the aide, because
> it's the aide's knowledge about the aliens that they depend on.)
Yes.
> you said the aide is the protagonist, which doesn't match with
> seeing the General's thoughts here...
I was trying a little misdirection here. I thought I'd open with a hint
that the
General was the protagonist, then move into the conference and introduce
some
other (alien) characters and perhaps get the reader thinking that maybe one
of
them is the main character. At a particular point in the conference there
is a revelation
and it shifts the focus to the real protagonist and the story follows him
from that point.
I should point out that this was originally intended to be a short story but
the plot
has expanded such that I am unable to do it within that kind of constraint.
In
short format I think this might have worked fairly well, but I'm now
considering that
I might revert this segment to further into the story (which was my original
intent and
I got sidetracked into making it the beginning instead) and write the start
and the
leadup to the conference instead of covering it by rehashing it at the
conference and
elsewhere.
I'm also going to do something I probably should have done when it first
became obvious
that this was never going to fit into a short story and that's write up an
outline or storyboard
so that I can get it all straight.
> I think there's a bit of redundancy in pointing out the alien
> culture, it sounds as if some stuff is repeated. I'd assume the
> General would 'get' the message first time round (if he's got
> brains, which he should as a General, at least in fiction :)
In reality as well. I had lunch with one a few weeks ago. Even in peace
time
you don't get to be a general officer if you are an idiot. The intro
doesn't do the
man justice, he's no fool, but he's, as he said "a soldier not a diplomat'
and feels
that he shouldn't be there. His briefing was hasty because he hit the
ground less
than an hour before he had to front for the conference. (Complex reasons)
> ), or
> else a bit more obvious skepticism would be helpful to explain why
> the aide repeats stuff that he's already mentioned. (Or maybe he's
> nervous for some reason, and that needs to be pointed out?)
No I think I just went overboard setting up the scene for the conference.
The aide *is* nervous, he's also as he said, 'just a soldier' and he's wound
up in this role by accident through necessity.
> I've read some of the other replies and mostly don't agree with
> them...
Well, I don't agree with *all* of them, though I do intend to act on their
suggestions to some degree. Everyone that has responded has suggested
something that I have found useful, though not necessarily everything.
> I'd not like any military backround stuff added, especially if it's
> not even relevant to the story.
It's not necessary to the story *in any depth*.
> Similar with the world's backround.
The background to the alien world and culture is significantly more
necessary to know 'in depth' as most of the story takes place in that
environment.
> I don't need that detailed there, and would probably be bored with
> being hit with it in the opening. Lack of names and rank doesn't
> bother me, either.
Well, I was going for an effect here and it seems to work for some and not
others. I'll probably 'flesh out' the General a bit and give him a name
etc, and if
I do move this part from the intro to further in, the aide will be known by
then.
> Any details on rank would just be wasted on me as
> I'm not familiar with this stuff. Adding them would scream 'military
> story', when that might not even be true.
Hmmm, well, it's not, strictly speaking, a 'military' story in that most of
the
story in of a more diplomacy/relational/cultural nature, though it certainly
does
involve a military person (the translator) who finds himself in a totally
different
role with his mil skills of secondary importance for much of the story.
Realistically, it's more about stopping a war that should not have started
and
shifting alliances to focus on the real enemy. So it's a story about war and
peace
rather than a war story if that makes sense....
>When the military is just
> backround, keeping it generic is just fine. (And when it isn't
> backround, it'd probably not be a story I'd want to read.)
Hmm, ok, let me put it this way. There are only a couple of actual
'military actions'
in the story. One at the beginning (which is what catapults the junior
officer into the
spotlight) and another towards the end. One is a small unit action the
other a somewhat
larger one. Whilst they are cuspal points in the story, they are not the
bulk of the story.
The bulk of the story is more about relationships/alliance between the
protagonist and the aliens
and how that relates to the enemy and it's attempts to prevent that alliance
happening.
> Someone else commented on the build-up. It looks as if things would
> go well, and just because of other (annoying) storylines usually
> going downhill when things look well I _dreaded_ that this'll take
> the same annoying way. I was rather relieved to see (in one of your
> replies to another post) that that is not the case and the aide's
> impression of the alien is correct. I'd cherish a story where things
> don't go downhill because some selfrighteous idiot thinks he knows
> all, but instead the characters actually have a clue. :)
The characters I'm using very much have a clue. Even to the point of
picking the right
man for the job despite age and rank suggesting he's unsuitable. So many
stories focus
on use military and or political stupidity as a method to create a situation
that it's beyond
cliche. Some stuff I've read has people in positions of power that are so
mindbogglingly
stupid it defies suspension of disbelief. So I've taken that approach that
the majority of
people in *this* military are rather more clueful and that the political
heirarchy have at least
a few, including the man in charge just for a change. The aliens are also
not stupid, though
they have a rather complex and somewhat rigid culture that has a lot of
formality in it.
They have no standing armies, and the concept of warfare at level beyond
individual
combats is quite new to them. Basically they have no clue how to fight a
war, since
war itself (as we understand it) is not part of their culture, but
differences are settled
between representatives of the rival factions. This is partly due to the
fact they have a
rather low birthrate and they value the life of an individual highly.
I've tried to make the enemy as completely alien and unlikeable as possible.
They have
no real saving graces and are pure conquerors, but they aren't stupid and
they rely on a
lot of deception and misdirection to disguise their real intent until it's
too late.
> I do somewhat agree on the alien language terms; my eyes just slide
> past anything un-pronounceable, so if a word's mentioned again later
> I won't recognize it. You mentioned somewhere that you intend the
> apostrophes as short pauses, so why not replace them with spaces,
> and use two spaces between actual words in that alien language? Turn
> "P'ra'af" into something like "P-h ra af" ("P-h" because otherwise
> the P would be read 'pi' or 'pee' or something - like the single
> letter is pronounced). Just an idea...
Not bad. The universal comment in just about every crit has been the
apostrophe
laden language is irritating. So I'm definitely going to fix that, possibly
along the lines
you mention. I want to try and keep the look and feel of the alien-ness
somehow,
but I'll fool around with forms and see what i can do. The complexity of
the language
is a necessary element. The initial reason for the involvement is that the
language is so
complex that it's essentially impossible to learn correctly unless you
literally grow up
speaking it. The protag did since his parents were anthropologists living
on one of the
alien colonised worlds. He was a year old when they got there and left to
continue his
schooling at 13, so he is a native speaker of both english and the alien
language with the
instinctive ablity to handle the incredibly complex grammar and syntax
without having
to conciously think of how to do it.
Thanks for you help and comments..
cheers
Geoff in Oz
Dan Goodman
> Hmm, ok, let me put it this way. There are only a couple of actual
> 'military actions' in the story. One at the beginning (which is what
> catapults the junior officer into the spotlight) and another towards
> the end. One is a small unit action the other a somewhat larger one.
> Whilst they are cuspal points in the story, they are not the bulk of
> the story. The bulk of the story is more about relationships/alliance
> between the protagonist and the aliens and how that relates to the
> enemy and it's attempts to prevent that alliance happening.
Then you're likely to run into two reader problems. 1) Reader who loves
military sf for the action part buys your book after reading the beginning,
finds out most of it is stuff
that bores him, decides to never buy anything by you again. 2) Reader
who's interested in what you're mostly writing about looks at the
beginning, decides not to bother reading further.
Brian M. Scott
<lofs...@lava.net> wrote in
<news:10h2ga5...@corp.supernews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> Glottal stop is often done with an apostrophe, but the correct character
> is an upside down single quote (Unicode 02BB or ʻ).
IPA for a glottal stop is a dotless question mark.
[...]
Brian
Catja Pafort
> in English, changing the vowel sound
> between f_r (four, fair, fear, fir) means we've changed the word
> completely.
And then, of course, there's 'fur', which in my idiolect sounds just
like 'fir' but means something different.
And, of course, polish and Polish, and a lot of other things that have
provided [on-topic] Isaac Asimov with such a continuous source of
amusement.
English is weird.
But we knew that.
Catja
Catja Pafort
> It occurs to me that in the meeting there is no formal
> introduction, just a
> presentation of credentials by the aliens. This is such an obvious stuff up
> on my part
> that I will have to correct it before going any further. The aide is more
> of a translator
> and is mostly anonymous in such matters, but he gives his name during the
> meeting as
> the plot unfolds and he is revealed as being deeply involved.
>
> > Minor problem: You need to know the General's rank; "General" is too
> > general.
>
> Given that it is a 'cameo' role really, I hadn't thought it important to be
> that specific, but I see what you mean. I'll look at that.
As a reader, I need very specific clues as to who is important and who
isn't. You need to be certain about that. If the general's only function
is to be a sounding board for your protag so you can dump the
information on the reader, you'll need to think again...
So far, I'm completely disinterested. You have a lot of obscure
linguistics in a made-up language with too many repetitions of the
letter 'r' You might have an interesting set-up with your unwilling
translator upon who a war - or not - rests, but you seem to either start
the story too early or too late.
Catja
Phil
> Phil wrote:
>
>> in English, changing the vowel sound
>> between f_r (four, fair, fear, fir) means we've changed the word
>> completely.
>
> And then, of course, there's 'fur', which in my idiolect sounds just
> like 'fir' but means something different.
That's why I said vowel _sound_... in IPA, for your idiolect (and mine,
for that matter), 'fur' and 'fir' would be written the same way.
> And, of course, polish and Polish, and a lot of other things that have
> provided [on-topic] Isaac Asimov with such a continuous source of
> amusement.
Hmm... I wonder what a culture with a language that doesn't allow for
puns and other wordplay would end up like...
> English is weird.
>
> But we knew that.
And revel in it. Except for those times when it makes us introduces our
head to the desk or the wall, of course.
Catja Pafort
> I was trying a little misdirection here. I thought I'd open with a hint
>that the General was the protagonist, then move into the conference and
>introduce some other (alien) characters and perhaps get the reader
>thinking that maybe one of them is the main character. At a particular
>point in the >conference there is a revelation and it shifts the focus
>to the real protagonist and the story follows him from that point.
By that point I might well have decided that I don't like the protag and
put the book aside.
Playing games with the reader - unless you are *really* skilfull and
experienced and know exactly what you are doing, of course, is far more
likely to alienate readers than to draw them in. You invest energy into
getting to know a character, you settle down expecting a particular kind
of story - BANG! 'fooled you' and you go through the process again,
'Neener, fooled you again' and I'll throw the book against the wall and
read something else.
A novel about a bi-cultural young man I might well want to read.
Something where the author messes with my head, no.
> I should point out that this was originally intended to be a short story
>but the plot has expanded such that I am unable to do it within that
>kind of constraint.
That's a whole can of wriggly things, and I'm not firm enough on shorts
to explain why there's more to it than merely scaling the story up.
[Tina]
> > Similar with the world's backround.
>
> The background to the alien world and culture is significantly more
> necessary to know 'in depth' as most of the story takes place in that
> environment.
What you won't know is that Tina needs to preface her crits with a
warning label - her tastes are _way out_ on the scale for most readers,
so take with a generous amount of seasoning.
> Some stuff I've read has people in positions of power that are so
> mindbogglingly stupid it defies suspension of disbelief.
<looks at real world>
Nope, reality is still stranger than fiction. For fiction to _work_,
however, it must be done well...
> They have no standing armies, and the concept of warfare at level beyond
> individual combats is quite new to them. Basically they have no clue how
> to >fight a war, since war itself (as we understand it) is not part of
> >their culture, but differences are settled between representatives of
> >the rival factions.
Cherryh's 'Fading Sun Trilogy' has that realisation.
> They have no real saving graces
A strong sense of personal honour?
> and are pure conquerors, but they aren't stupid and they rely on a lot of
> deception and misdirection to disguise their real intent until it's too
> late.
It seems to me that basically noncombatant and conquerors don't go
together all that well.
> The complexity of the language is a necessary element. The initial reason
> >for the involvement is that the language is so complex that it's
> >essentially impossible to learn correctly unless you literally grow up
> speaking it.
You can show the complexity much better by delving inside the
character's head than by giving us a few words.
Without seeing, on the page, the whole gamut of possible ways of
expressing that idea, getting across the concepts, phrasing things so
the reader gets them easily, facilitating understanding, hitting us over
the head with a clue-by-four, a single phrase will remain just that, a
jumble of unpronouncable letters without meaning; even when you provide
_a_ translation.
You could show all that complexity much better if someone reads out a
bad translation during the conference, and your aide speaks up,
nervously, 'begging your pardon, sir, but spoken by a subordinate
female, <infuriating phrase> would be much better translated as <mildly
irritating>'
>The protag did since his parents were anthropologists living on one of
>the alien colonised worlds. He was a year old when they got there >and
>left to continue his schooling at 13, so he is a native speaker of
>>both english and the alien language with the instinctive ablity to
>>handle the incredibly complex grammar and syntax without having to
>conciously think of how to do it.
How can he be certain that he didn't learn the alien alternative of
women's/children's Japanese?
And if he hasn't practiced the language for a few years, and the speaker
belongs to a different subgroup/tribe, how can he be *certain* that he's
getting it right?
And even if he can speak it in context, has he ever learnt the
formalities of written language? The complexities of military contexts?
And how come he aquired the ability to _translate_ those automatic
nuances? I'm bilingual, and a lousy translator - it doesn't come
automatically.
Catja
Dan Goodman
> Geoff in Oz wrote:
>
>>I was trying a little misdirection here. I thought I'd open with a
>>hint that the General was the protagonist, then move into the
>>conference and introduce some other (alien) characters and perhaps get
>>the reader thinking that maybe one of them is the main character. At a
>>particular point in the conference there is a revelation and it shifts
>>the focus to the real protagonist and the story follows him from that
>>point.
>
> By that point I might well have decided that I don't like the protag
> and put the book aside.
And another reader might well have decided he _did_ like the protagonist
-- and give up when he finds out that isn't the _real_ protagonist.
> And even if he can speak it in context, has he ever learnt the
> formalities of written language? The complexities of military
> contexts? And how come he aquired the ability to _translate_ those
> automatic nuances? I'm bilingual, and a lousy translator - it doesn't
> come automatically.
Just for the heck of it, I'm going to throw in some bits of English
which I suspect a translator would have problems with:
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.
Pretentious? Moi? (I'd love to see a French translation of that
one....)
The CO
"Catja Pafort" <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:1gi80dt.1bwyvep1fyhcu9N%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid...
> Geoff in Oz wrote:
>
>
> > I was trying a little misdirection here. I thought I'd open with a hint
> >that the General was the protagonist, then move into the conference and
> >introduce some other (alien) characters and perhaps get the reader
> >thinking that maybe one of them is the main character. At a particular
> >point in the >conference there is a revelation and it shifts the focus
> >to the real protagonist and the story follows him from that point.
>
> By that point I might well have decided that I don't like the protag and
> put the book aside.
Possibly. I thought it was close enough to the start for that not to happen
but
I could be wrong.
> Playing games with the reader - unless you are *really* skilfull and
> experienced and know exactly what you are doing, of course, is far more
> likely to alienate readers than to draw them in. You invest energy into
> getting to know a character,
Mmmm, I'd have to say that aside from the first 500 words, the General is
in the background pretty well and the other players start to emerge.
>you settle down expecting a particular kind
> of story - BANG! 'fooled you' and you go through the process again,
Mmmm not really my intent. Was just trying to generate a little suspense
at the beginning. IF it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
> 'Neener, fooled you again' and I'll throw the book against the wall and
> read something else.
So would I. No, it was a simple mechanism, not one of a repeating series...
> A novel about a bi-cultural young man I might well want to read.
That's really what this is about.
> Something where the author messes with my head, no.
Oddly enough I don't like 'messing with your head' stories either. I didn't
view this that way. I don't like 'mess with your head' stories either.
> > I should point out that this was originally intended to be a short story
> >but the plot has expanded such that I am unable to do it within that
> >kind of constraint.
> That's a whole can of wriggly things,
Not disputed.
> and I'm not firm enough on shorts
> to explain why there's more to it than merely scaling the story up.
No argument, but it wasn't a question of just scaling it up really, it was a
concept that was *not really suitable* for a short story to start with, it's
just
that I didn't realise that until I started writing it.
> [Tina]
>
> > > Similar with the world's backround.
> >
> > The background to the alien world and culture is significantly more
> > necessary to know 'in depth' as most of the story takes place in that
> > environment.
>
> What you won't know is that Tina needs to preface her crits with a
> warning label - her tastes are _way out_ on the scale for most readers,
> so take with a generous amount of seasoning.
I take all crit with a generous amount of seasoning. I can't possibly make
everyone
happy with it, so I have to take bits from here and there.
> > Some stuff I've read has people in positions of power that are so
> > mindbogglingly stupid it defies suspension of disbelief.
>
> <looks at real world>
>
> Nope, reality is still stranger than fiction.
Stranger yes. But in general, Generals aren't stupid. :^)
Trust Me On This.
>For fiction to _work_,
> however, it must be done well...
That much is certain.
> > >no standing armies, and the concept of warfare at level beyond
> > >individual combats is quite new to them. Basically they have no clue
how
> > >to fight a war, since war itself (as we understand it) is not part of
> > >their culture, but differences are settled between representatives of
> > >the rival factions.
> Cherryh's 'Fading Sun Trilogy' has that realisation.
Not one I've read. If you say so.
I don't think the concept is new, I hope to be able to give a somewhat
different treatment.
> > They have no real saving graces
>
> A strong sense of personal honour?
Not even that really. Their idea of 'honour' involves making trophies out
of the body parts of their prisoners. Surrender to them only guarantees
your
name will be recorded as having assisted their empire by graciously allowing
yourself to be killed. In short, if you surrender to them, you get to die
quickly,
if you just plain lose, survivors are tortured to death for the amusement of
the troops
as punishment for not surrendering.
> > and are pure conquerors, but they aren't stupid and they rely on a lot
of
> > deception and misdirection to disguise their real intent until it's too
> > late.
> It seems to me that basically noncombatant and conquerors don't go
> together all that well.
Cunning bastards though. They engineer several massacres and make it look
like
the protags people did it. Very convincingly, even using human weapons and
such and leaving doctored surveillance footage behind as proof. No
survivors of course.
The nice aliens fall for it and form a (somewhat uneasy) alliance against an
apparent common
enemy. The story basically kicks off when they get busted in the act by the
ship the protag
is on and they hop in and prevent the massacre. This creates a dilemma as
they are technically
at war and this leads to the (very short notice) conference.
> > The complexity of the language is a necessary element. The initial
reason
> > >for the involvement is that the language is so complex that it's
> > >essentially impossible to learn correctly unless you literally grow up
> > speaking it.
>
> You can show the complexity much better by delving inside the
> character's head than by giving us a few words.
yes, I'm looking much harder at that concept now.
> Without seeing, on the page, the whole gamut of possible ways of
> expressing that idea, getting across the concepts, phrasing things so
> the reader gets them easily, facilitating understanding, hitting us over
> the head with a clue-by-four, a single phrase will remain just that, a
> jumble of unpronouncable letters without meaning; even when you provide
> _a_ translation.
Yes, so it seems.
> You could show all that complexity much better if someone reads out a
> bad translation during the conference, and your aide speaks up,
> nervously, 'begging your pardon, sir, but spoken by a subordinate
> female, <infuriating phrase> would be much better translated as <mildly
> irritating>'
Actually something like that happens later. IIRC, I posted the passage.
> >The protag did since his parents were anthropologists living on one of
> >the alien colonised worlds. He was a year old when they got there >and
> >left to continue his schooling at 13, so he is a native speaker of
> >>both english and the alien language with the instinctive ablity to
> >>handle the incredibly complex grammar and syntax without having to
> >conciously think of how to do it.
>
> How can he be certain that he didn't learn the alien alternative of
> women's/children's Japanese?
You may assume that was not the case.
> And if he hasn't practiced the language for a few years,
Who says :^)
> and the speaker
> belongs to a different subgroup/tribe, how can he be *certain* that he's
> getting it right?
Only one language, no dialects etc. Sounds overly simplistic I realise but
they
have had a stable global society for a long time and have no ethnicity to
speak of.
> And even if he can speak it in context, has he ever learnt the
> formalities of written language?
Yep. He did their equivalent of Primary School whilst being home schooled
in
his own language etc. He can read their 'common mark'. They have a quite
different
form they use for certain types of document that he hasn't encountered.
He also kept up with their forms of entertainment (video, books etc) in
addition
to English, all the time he was in High School and university and he visited
his
parents on the alien world a couple times a year at least for varying
periods
until quite recently...
You may assume he has a pefrect command of the language.
> The complexities of military contexts?
Not much of that nature in the language, strictly speaking they have no
'military context'
as they essentially had no military until quite recently. His command of
the language is
literally that of a native speaker.
> And how come he aquired the ability to _translate_ those automatic
> nuances? I'm bilingual, and a lousy translator - it doesn't come
> automatically.
No disrespect, and I'm not bilingual, (no point where I live) but I am given
to
understand (by those that are) that there is a significant difference
between being
bilingual and being a native speaker of two distinct languages.
I have friends that have that ability in English and Greek or English and a
rather rugged
dialect of Italian spoken around Malfetta and they can carry on a
conversation in both
languages with no conscious effort. This is (apparently) not the same as
being bilingual
per se.
Maybe it just works better for the protag because he has a gift for it, or
perhaps it's a
consequence of his life as only child in a human family on an alien world
from age 1 to age 13.
Thanks for your comments, I will take them into consideration.
Regards
Geoff in Oz
The CO
> green...@cix.co.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote in
>
> > Geoff in Oz wrote:
> >
> >>I was trying a little misdirection here. I thought I'd open with a
> >>hint that the General was the protagonist, then move into the
> >>conference and introduce some other (alien) characters and perhaps get
> >>the reader thinking that maybe one of them is the main character. At a
> >>particular point in the conference there is a revelation and it shifts
> >>the focus to the real protagonist and the story follows him from that
> >>point.
> >
> > By that point I might well have decided that I don't like the protag
> > and put the book aside.
>
> And another reader might well have decided he _did_ like the protagonist
> -- and give up when he finds out that isn't the _real_ protagonist.
At least possible, though probably less likely in the amount of time he
'has the floor' so to speak...
<snip>
> Just for the heck of it, I'm going to throw in some bits of English
> which I suspect a translator would have problems with:
> It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.
I speak (only) english and I have only a vague idea what much of that means.
i have no clue what a rozzer is was or smells like.
Crackers would be crazy, not sure what dropsy means in that context,
as I parse it as a (somwhat archaeic) term for odema or fluid retention in
the tissues.
and snide I understood to mean sarcastic and/or disparaging, as in a snide
remark..
> Pretentious? Moi? (I'd love to see a French translation of that
> one....)
I'd like to see an Australian translation of it :^)
It's crazy to sneakily give a (whatever a rozzer is) a dose of odema with a
smart arse remark??
Are you sure that's english? ;^)
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"Catja Pafort" <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> As a reader, I need very specific clues as to who is important and who
> isn't. You need to be certain about that. If the general's only function
> is to be a sounding board for your protag so you can dump the
> information on the reader, you'll need to think again...
So noted.
> So far, I'm completely disinterested. You have a lot of obscure
> linguistics in a made-up language with too many repetitions of the
> letter 'r'
Actually, you are the first one to point out the recurring 'r's others were
more annoyed by the apostrophes. Good point though, hadn't conciously
noticed, but now that you mention it...
> You might have an interesting set-up with your unwilling
> translator upon who a war - or not - rests, but you seem to either start
> the story too early or too late.
Yes! Exactly. This was originally going to be further in, and at some
point I thought
it could work as an opening, but the more I get into it the less that seems
to work.
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
Zeborah
> "Catja Pafort" <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:1gi80dt.1bwyvep1fyhcu9N%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid...
> > and the speaker
> > belongs to a different subgroup/tribe, how can he be *certain* that he's
> > getting it right?
>
> Only one language, no dialects etc. Sounds overly simplistic I realise
> but they have had a stable global society for a long time and have no
> ethnicity to speak of.
Um, no, I just don't think that's going to happen. I don't think it's
possible, unless they're really *really* REALLY alien. Language and
ethnicity don't work like that; they're about a sense of belonging, and
people just don't get a sense of belonging out of a stable global
society of umpteen billion people. They get a sense of belonging from
their family, or their peer group, or their interest group, and thus
language change happens: like "inclue" and "cat-vacuuming" and "WIP"
(which I pronounce "whip").
If I see that claim in a book, without seriously good handwaving to back
it up, I'll assume that the author doesn't know the first thing about
languages.
What I could believe would be that in addition to local languages
everyone learns a common language; that he learnt this common language;
and that this language is used in their military because otherwise
people wouldn't understand each others' local languages.
> > And how come he aquired the ability to _translate_ those automatic
> > nuances? I'm bilingual, and a lousy translator - it doesn't come
> > automatically.
>
> No disrespect, and I'm not bilingual, (no point where I live) but I am
> given to understand (by those that are) that there is a significant
> difference between being bilingual and being a native speaker of two
> distinct languages. I have friends that have that ability in English and
> Greek or English and a rather rugged dialect of Italian spoken around
> Malfetta and they can carry on a conversation in both languages with no
> conscious effort. This is (apparently) not the same as being bilingual
> per se.
Carrying on a conversation in both languages (it's called
code-switching, and for a bilingual person it's often easier than
sticking to a single language) is a completely different skill from
translating between one and the other.
If you're not trained as a translator (or have a genius' natural skill
for it) then you're liable to get stuck: "Er, I know what that word
means, but how do I say it in English?" Where "word" can be some
elusive abstract concept, or some long idiomatic phrase that you need to
replace with a completely different English idiomatic phrase, or just
some really common word that you're blanking on at the moment: "It's on
the tip of my tongue... that yellow stuff, that you make out of milk and
put on your bread with jam, you know, that..."
When you're speaking, if you don't know a word or a grammar structure,
you can choose to use different ones, quite without noticing. But when
you're translating, you have to translate what the speaker said, so you
don't have that leeway. It's all around a lot harder.
(And even if he's lived there for ages and watched tv and read books,
there'll always be words and idioms that he doesn't know or can't
remember right at the moment; there are English words and idioms that I
don't know or couldn't remember right at the moment.)
> Maybe it just works better for the protag because he has a gift for it, or
> perhaps it's a consequence of his life as only child in a human family on
> an alien world from age 1 to age 13.
If during that time he had to act as a translator for someone else in
his family, that could explain it. But translation (or interpretation,
for the spoken) is not usually I think a natural skill.
I would expect his translations to be somewhat stilted: sometimes
rushing on quite competently, sometimes stuck on something, sometimes
fluent enough but not actually sounding exactly like natural English
would sound.
Zeborah
Brian Pickrell
>
> Yes! Exactly. This was originally going to be further in, and at some
> point I thought
> it could work as an opening, but the more I get into it the less that seems
> to work.
Do you know what _does_ work, or how to tell if it's working, or what
you want an opening to accomplish?
Tim S
<huge snip>
>
> Carrying on a conversation in both languages (it's called
> code-switching, and for a bilingual person it's often easier than
> sticking to a single language) is a completely different skill from
> translating between one and the other.
>
...just as carrying on a conversation in one language is a completely
different skill from being a good poet, or orator, or raconteur, or
explainer of technical matters, in that language.
Tim
Dan Goodman
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message
>> green...@cix.co.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote in
>>
>> > Geoff in Oz wrote:
>> >
>> Just for the heck of it, I'm going to throw in some bits of English
>> which I suspect a translator would have problems with:
>
>> It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.
>
> I speak (only) english and I have only a vague idea what much of that
> means. i have no clue what a rozzer is was or smells like.
> Crackers would be crazy, not sure what dropsy means in that context,
> as I parse it as a (somwhat archaeic) term for odema or fluid
> retention in the tissues.
> and snide I understood to mean sarcastic and/or disparaging, as in a
> snide remark..
>
>> Pretentious? Moi? (I'd love to see a French translation of that
>> one....)
>
> I'd like to see an Australian translation of it :^)
So -- no Australian ever uses French words in order to sound more
artistic/educated?
> It's crazy to sneakily give a (whatever a rozzer is) a dose of odema
> with a smart arse remark??
>
> Are you sure that's english? ;^)
Yes, though some of the words are argot rather than standard English:
It's crazy to pay off a policeman in counterfeit money.
Tina Hall
> "Tina Hall" <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote
>> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
>>> I guess I really just want to know if it reads like crap and/or
>>> whether it would make you want to read on.
>>
>> I like it, mostly as it is, and would read on. At least until I
>> get to see this alien and can determine whether they're
>> interesting. :)
> Well, I think they are interesting, but then I am a bit biased
> :^)
<g>
Would be a bit odd if you wrote something you weren't interested in.
:)
[...]
>> you said the aide is the protagonist, which doesn't match with
>> seeing the General's thoughts here...
> I was trying a little misdirection here. [...]
Why? (To what purpose?)
It could get confusing when later you switch to another's thoughts
without pause, or even when you never show the General's thoughts
again throughout the rest of the story.
>> I think there's a bit of redundancy in pointing out the alien
>> culture, it sounds as if some stuff is repeated. I'd assume the
>> General would 'get' the message first time round (if he's got
>> brains, which he should as a General, at least in fiction :)
> In reality as well. I had lunch with one a few weeks ago. Even
> in peace time you don't get to be a general officer if you are an
> idiot.
I think I don't want to step there (failing to see the point in
military, as a result of failing to see the point in war, and
voluntary warfarers, or something). :) Let's stick to fiction.
(Where I don't mind wars and Generals...)
> The intro doesn't do the man justice, he's no fool, but
> he's, as he said "a soldier not a diplomat' and feels that he
> shouldn't be there.
He does seem a decent guy. With this opening, I'd like to see more
of him than of that aide guy, who looks not all that interesting...
(Meaning, my reaction wouldn't go well with where you lead the
story...)
> His briefing was hasty because he hit the ground less than an hour
> before he had to front for the conference. (Complex reasons)
Maybe that's what should be told. It's fine that you elaborate here,
but isn't this stuff that should be found out/obvious in the story
instead?
>> ), or else a bit more obvious skepticism would be helpful to
>> explain why the aide repeats stuff that he's already mentioned.
>> (Or maybe he's nervous for some reason, and that needs to be
>> pointed out?)
> No I think I just went overboard setting up the scene for the
> conference. The aide *is* nervous, he's also as he said, 'just a
> soldier' and he's wound up in this role by accident through
> necessity.
Maybe saying that he's nervous, rather than relying on the reader
figuring it out from his behaviour, would help.
>> I've read some of the other replies and mostly don't agree with
>> them...
> Well, I don't agree with *all* of them, though I do intend to act
> on their suggestions to some degree. Everyone that has responded
> has suggested something that I have found useful, though not
> necessarily everything.
:) That's a relief. Some people are very vocal and focused on what a
story 'should' be like, with no room for alternate opinions.
>> Similar with the world's backround.
> The background to the alien world and culture is significantly
> more necessary to know 'in depth' as most of the story takes
> place in that environment.
Nothing wrong with that, I was refering to the opening here, where
dumping the backround might be a bad idea.
[military story?]
> So it's a story about war and peace rather than a war story if
> that makes sense....
Yes it does.
>> When the military is just backround, keeping it generic is just
>> fine. (And when it isn't backround, it'd probably not be a story
>> I'd want to read.)
> Hmm, ok, let me put it this way. There are only a couple of
> actual 'military actions' in the story. One at the beginning
> (which is what catapults the junior officer into the spotlight)
> and another towards the end. One is a small unit action the other
> a somewhat larger one. Whilst they are cuspal points in the
> story, they are not the bulk of the story. The bulk of the story
> is more about relationships/alliance between the protagonist and
> the aliens and how that relates to the enemy and it's attempts to
> prevent that alliance happening.
That sounds as if the military is indeed just a part of the
backround, necessary but not the focus for most of the time.
>> [...] I'd cherish a story where things don't go downhill because
>> some selfrighteous idiot thinks he knows all, but instead the
>> characters actually have a clue. :)
> The characters I'm using very much have a clue. Even to the
> point of picking the right man for the job despite age and rank
> suggesting he's unsuitable.
That's a refreshing change. :)
> So many stories focus on use military and or political stupidity
> as a method to create a situation that it's beyond cliche.
Indeed! :)
Not just military or political. So much seems cheap soap opera plot,
with misunderstandings, cluelessness, and deciding for others
without sufficient information, instead of people who actually have
brains and talk to and work with each other.
> Some stuff I've read has people in positions of power that are so
> mindbogglingly stupid it defies suspension of disbelief.
"AOL!"
> So I've taken that approach that the majority of people in *this*
> military are rather more clueful and that the political heirarchy
> have at least a few, including the man in charge just for a
> change.
:) 'Making it better'? Sounds familiar, though I haven't actually
got a story for that, just stuff that I'd like to see done
differently.
> The aliens are also not stupid, though they have a rather complex
> and somewhat rigid culture that has a lot of formality in it.
I'm not sure whether I'd like that, but that's irrelevant. :)
> [...] I've tried to make the enemy as completely alien and
> unlikeable as possible. They have no real saving graces and are
> pure conquerors, but they aren't stupid and they rely on a lot of
> deception and misdirection to disguise their real intent until
> it's too late.
Sounds interesting, and I'd like to find out whether it'll work the
way you intend. (I often end up cheering the bad guys because there
are no likable good guys...)
>> I do somewhat agree on the alien language terms; my eyes just
>> slide past anything un-pronounceable, so if a word's mentioned
>> again later I won't recognize it. You mentioned somewhere that
>> you intend the apostrophes as short pauses, so why not replace
>> them with spaces, and use two spaces between actual words in
>> that alien language? Turn "P'ra'af" into something like "P-h ra
>> af" ("P-h" because otherwise the P would be read 'pi' or 'pee'
>> or something - like the single letter is pronounced). Just an
>> idea...
> Not bad. The universal comment in just about every crit has been
> the apostrophe laden language is irritating.
I wouldn't say it is irritating, just something my eyes slide
past... (Which is not the intended effect, either, I guess. :) )
> [...] The complexity of the language is a necessary element. The
> initial reason for the involvement is that the language is so
> complex that it's essentially impossible to learn correctly unless
> you literally grow up speaking it.
That doesn't mean it has to be unpronounceable. It could be easily
said words where all the different meanings and usages still evade
anyone who has not grown up with it. (Just a thought.)
--
Tina - " "
A new plaything!
Suffer! (Xom, Dungeon Crawl)
Phil
> "Catja Pafort" <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:1gi80dt.1bwyvep1fyhcu9N%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid...
>> Geoff in Oz wrote:
[snip explanation of hinting at the General as the protagonist then
switching the focus to the actual protag]
>> By that point I might well have decided that I don't like the protag and
>> put the book aside.
>
> Possibly. I thought it was close enough to the start for that not to happen
> but I could be wrong.
I'd probably be OK with something along those lines if it was more a
matter of the initial presentation making it possible that either character
might be the main protagonist. Or, alternately, that the military unit as a
whole is the main character, with those two characters as its main voice.
Anything more definite than that, though, and I might end up disappointed.
>> Playing games with the reader - unless you are *really* skilfull and
>> experienced and know exactly what you are doing, of course, is far more
>> likely to alienate readers than to draw them in. You invest energy into
>> getting to know a character,
>
> Mmmm, I'd have to say that aside from the first 500 words, the General is
> in the background pretty well and the other players start to emerge.
In that case, assuming you keep this particular story point as the
opening, might it not be better to let the General be mostly background in
the opening as well (summarising some of his lines through narrative,
keeping the scene in the PoV of the actual main character, or whatever
works for you).
>> A novel about a bi-cultural young man I might well want to read.
>
> That's really what this is about.
In that case, as a reader, I'd probably want to have the back cover blurb
and the opening make that clear from the get-go. Otherwise, one of two
things would happen: I'd overlook the book as "some military sf story" if I
wasn't, at the time, in the mood for such stories or, conversely, if "some
military sf story" is what I was looking for, I'd be rather annoyed when
that's what it didn't turn out to be.
> I take all crit with a generous amount of seasoning. I can't possibly make
> everyone happy with it, so I have to take bits from here and there.
Now that sounds like a healthy way of reading crits!
[snip much stuff about the alien culture]
>> It seems to me that basically noncombatant and conquerors don't go
>> together all that well.
>
> Cunning bastards though. They engineer several massacres and make it look
> like the protags people did it. Very convincingly, even using human weapons
> and such and leaving doctored surveillance footage behind as proof. No
> survivors of course. The nice aliens fall for it and form a (somewhat uneasy)
> alliance against an apparent common enemy. The story basically kicks off
> when they get busted in the act by the ship the protag is on and they hop in
> and prevent the massacre. This creates a dilemma as they are technically
> at war and this leads to the (very short notice) conference.
I was a little bit confused the first time I read your post about the
alien culture, and with the above, I still am: are we dealing with "humans"
vs. "one alien culture" or with a human--alien culture #--alien culture 2
situation?
I had a reaction similar to Catja's above -- pacifism and warrior-style
honour seemed to clash, and my first thought was that I'd missed a sentence
explaining that there were two alien cultures. Or at least, two very
different factions within that culture.
[snip how the protag is a native speaker of both English and the alien
language, and can thus instinctively/unconsciously handle its extremely
complex elements]
>> and the speaker
>> belongs to a different subgroup/tribe, how can he be *certain* that he's
>> getting it right?
>
> Only one language, no dialects etc. Sounds overly simplistic I realise but
> they have had a stable global society for a long time and have no ethnicity to
> speak of.
I'll have to agree with Zeborah's comments, here. I could picture that
degree of unicity in a language for a hive mind culture, but I'd definitely
expect language fragmentation in a culture capable of being both mostly
pacifists and torturing prisoners for entertainment. Given what you've
described about the very fine distinctions the language makes grammatically
explicit (knowing the sex of the speaker and the adressee and their
relative rank, for instance), I'd actually expect a lot of dialects and
regional variants to creep up, with the Imperial (or Capital, or whatever
the political centre is) standard serving as the default for people from
different parts of the planet (solar system, wherever).
>> And even if he can speak it in context, has he ever learnt the
>> formalities of written language?
>
> Yep. He did their equivalent of Primary School whilst being home schooled
> in his own language etc. He can read their 'common mark'. They have a
Interesting assumption there, though it could be that we understand the
phrase 'learnt the formalities of written language' differently. Most
people I know with high school or higher education in their native language
haven't really learnt the formalities of written language. They can read,
but full comprehension of the written word, including the ability to write
it well, which is how I understood the phrase, is beyond them.
> You may assume he has a pefrect command of the language.
In the same sense that an average native speaker of a language has a
'perfect' command of that language, or did you intend the above to be read
more literally?
>> And how come he aquired the ability to _translate_ those automatic
>> nuances? I'm bilingual, and a lousy translator - it doesn't come
>> automatically.
>
> No disrespect, and I'm not bilingual, (no point where I live) but I am given
> to understand (by those that are) that there is a significant difference
> between being bilingual and being a native speaker of two distinct
> languages.
As a data point, my experience disagrees, and for two of the three
languages I speak, I'm essentially a native speaker. For the third, which I
now speak quite fluently if not quite at native level yet, I haven't
noticed any difference between being a native speaker and being 'bilingual'
in those areas of the language that I've thoroughly internalised.
Interestingly, most of my immediate circle of family and friends are
similarly native-speaker level bilingual, and most of them can't actually
translate. Provide "gist of what the person said" interpretations, yes, but
actually translate, no.
> I have friends that have that ability in English and Greek or English and a
> rather rugged dialect of Italian spoken around Malfetta and they can carry
> on a conversation in both languages with no conscious effort. This is
> (apparently) not the same as being bilingual per se.
Well, bilingualism isn't a binary condition that's either on or off. It's
more of a continuum. My experience of situations such as the above, though,
involves zero translation: once you reach native or near-native level in a
language, you can carry a conversation in those languages simultaneously
precisely *because* there's no translation involved: hear language A, get
the meaning instantly and automatically; same with language B. You don't
actually need to think about the meaning of individual words, phrases or
grammatical nuances.
If you have to translate, though, it's a whole different matter, because
you can't just "get" the meaning and move on, you have to think about how
that same meaning is expressed in the other language. Sometimes, the
translation comes out automatically, but other times, especially if the
language you're translating to makes distinctions the language you're
translating from doesn't, you get stuck for a bit thinking about which
nuance is more appropriate.
> Maybe it just works better for the protag because he has a gift for it, or
I can accept that he's gifted with languages. Having a certain facility
for them myself, I'd be hard pressed to deny it. :)
But actual translation, and interpretation, which is actually what it
sounds like your protagonist is going to be doing, still requires training.
For me to believe in the protagonist as an interpreter or translator of the
calibre your posts imply, I'd want to see references to his having received
specialised language training in *both* languages.
Without such training, I'd believe in his being able to interact smoothly
with the aliens, and interact equally smoothly with the humans, but I'd
expect his translations to be "gist of what the alien said" summaries that
either strip away the subtle nuances the aliens make that humans don't, or
tag those as post-translation explanations: "Well, sir, he said he'd think
about your proposal, but his choice of words indicate that he sees you as
an inferior." Or some such.
Mind you, I'm going to be much pickier than the average reader on such
points because I have a bi-cultural background in my own country and
currently live abroad, in a third culture. That will naturally make me more
picky about plausibility and believability in a story with a focus such as
yours.
All in my opinion, of course. Season to taste. :)
The CO
"Zeborah" <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1giak8r.1fym8uporu24qN%zeb...@gmail.com...
> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
>
> > "Catja Pafort" <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:1gi80dt.1bwyvep1fyhcu9N%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid...
> > > and the speaker
> > > belongs to a different subgroup/tribe, how can he be *certain* that
he's
> > > getting it right?
> >
> > Only one language, no dialects etc. Sounds overly simplistic I realise
> > but they have had a stable global society for a long time and have no
> > ethnicity to speak of.
>
> Um, no, I just don't think that's going to happen. I don't think it's
> possible, unless they're really *really* REALLY alien.
They are really really alien. And it's deceptive, because though they are
*physically* different, they actually relate to humans quite well, and it's
not until later that some really ALIEN things about them emerge.
It's remarked on at one point that he has a 'colonial' accent, but that's
about it.
> Language and
> ethnicity don't work like that;
No disrespect but you are anthropromorphising. Humans are no doubt like
that, but an ALIEN race may not be. And this one isn't....
>they're about a sense of belonging, and
> people just don't get a sense of belonging out of a stable global
> society of umpteen billion people.
They get their sense of 'belonging' from their extended family group. For
biological
reasons they live in family arrangement that is something between a tribe
and a group
marriage with new members joining on occasion and born in members leaving
occasionally.
This extended family grouping is their home as much as the dwellings they
live in.
That's one of the alien things about them. Their population is relatively
small and they
have an extremely low birthrate and.... very... long lives... which is why
they have a low
birthrate.......
> They get a sense of belonging from
> their family, or their peer group, or their interest group, and thus
> language change happens:
Except it's not in their personality to do so. Humans thrive on change,
they
thrive on stability. Not static, but stable, they innovate and invent and
adapt
but they tend to do it as a collective. It could be said they are more
'social'
than we are and less independent.
> like "inclue" and "cat-vacuuming" and "WIP"
> (which I pronounce "whip").
Oh, I understand your reasoning and it's pretty much correct - for humans...
> If I see that claim in a book, without seriously good handwaving to back
> it up, I'll assume that the author doesn't know the first thing about
> languages.
Probably don't. But there is nothing handed down on tablets of stone that
says
a non human race with a totally different way of thinking and doing things
has to
have things occur the same way as they do for humans.. One of the problems
I find with most scifi aliens is that they generally sound far *too* human
to be
convincingly alien, as if they were ordinary people with tentacles or fur or
whatever.
The aliens I'm trying to create here resemble something familiar to us and
*appear*
to think act and value things in the same manner as we do, and in some
respects, that
is the case, however they also have some very significant differences that
are caused
both by biology and a different way of thinking about the universe and their
place in it.
> What I could believe would be that in addition to local languages
> everyone learns a common language; that he learnt this common language;
> and that this language is used in their military because otherwise
> people wouldn't understand each others' local languages.
I did consider that mechanism, but felt it was going down the path of what
people would do in such a circumstance. From situations like this, things
like
Pidgin have arisen... Trade languages..
> Carrying on a conversation in both languages (it's called
> code-switching, and for a bilingual person it's often easier than
> sticking to a single language) is a completely different skill from
> translating between one and the other.
Yes, realise that.
> If you're not trained as a translator (or have a genius' natural skill
> for it) then you're liable to get stuck: "Er, I know what that word
> means, but how do I say it in English?" Where "word" can be some
> elusive abstract concept, or some long idiomatic phrase that you need to
> replace with a completely different English idiomatic phrase, or just
> some really common word that you're blanking on at the moment: "It's on
> the tip of my tongue... that yellow stuff, that you make out of milk and
> put on your bread with jam, you know, that..."
>
> When you're speaking, if you don't know a word or a grammar structure,
> you can choose to use different ones, quite without noticing. But when
> you're translating, you have to translate what the speaker said, so you
> don't have that leeway. It's all around a lot harder.
>
> (And even if he's lived there for ages and watched tv and read books,
> there'll always be words and idioms that he doesn't know or can't
> remember right at the moment; there are English words and idioms that I
> don't know or couldn't remember right at the moment.)
>
> > Maybe it just works better for the protag because he has a gift for it,
or
> > perhaps it's a consequence of his life as only child in a human family
on
> > an alien world from age 1 to age 13.
>
> If during that time he had to act as a translator for someone else in
> his family, that could explain it. But translation (or interpretation,
> for the spoken) is not usually I think a natural skill.
Actually he *does* do exactly that, as his parents never truly understood
the nuances
of the language since they didn't grow up with it. They were primarily
anthropologists and
were more interested in the structure of the civilisation and were not
linguists beyond that
level.
Some of my bilingual friends were also very much cast into that
role. They grew up learning (in one case) English and Greek. This guy
became very proficient
at both. For various reasons, his parents never got beyond so so at English
and his mother pretty
much didn't bother, she stuck with her Greek friends and family and rarely
needed to, when she
did, Nick very often found himself translating and he became *very* good at
it, continuing in that
role for nearly 20 years til he married and left home. (Which simply meant
that his younger sister
who was the 'understudy' when he wasn't around, took over the job...)
> I would expect his translations to be somewhat stilted: sometimes
> rushing on quite competently, sometimes stuck on something, sometimes
> fluent enough but not actually sounding exactly like natural English
> would sound.
There *are* occasions like that, but they are not due to a lack of fluency,
but rather because
some particular term or concept doesn't have an English (or Alien)
equivalent and he has to
stop and think about how to break it down into something that is 'close
enough' to convey the
meaning of the term.
I understand your objections and I will think about it, but I have uh,
'designed' the aliens so that
there are good and logical reasons for all the differences, both subtle and
radical, that exist.
Thank you very much for your time, much appreciated...
Geoff in Oz
The CO
Not in any way I could define until I have tried it and then tried it on
others
to see if *they* think it works. I have no training in writing or
anything related
to it, so what little I know is gleaned from how other authors have
structured their
works.
I have an idea about how it could work better, basically it involves telling
the story
from the beginning of the protags involvement instead of picking it up after
one major
event has already occurred and bringing out the previous event in the course
of the
conference...
Geoff in OZ
The CO
> "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in
>
> > "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message
> >> green...@cix.co.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote in
> >>
> >> > Geoff in Oz wrote:
> >> >
>
> >> Just for the heck of it, I'm going to throw in some bits of English
> >> which I suspect a translator would have problems with:
> >
> >> It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.
> >
> > I speak (only) english and I have only a vague idea what much of that
> > means. i have no clue what a rozzer is was or smells like.
> > Crackers would be crazy, not sure what dropsy means in that context,
> > as I parse it as a (somwhat archaeic) term for odema or fluid
> > retention in the tissues.
> > and snide I understood to mean sarcastic and/or disparaging, as in a
> > snide remark..
> >
> >> Pretentious? Moi? (I'd love to see a French translation of that
> >> one....)
> >
> > I'd like to see an Australian translation of it :^)
>
> So -- no Australian ever uses French words in order to sound more
> artistic/educated?
Lol. I understood the Moi. Probably, in fact, I may had done so myself,
but my knowledge of any foreign language is limited to a few common
words and phrases, there is really very little use for anything but English
in this country unless you travel overseas. I sometimes envy the ability of
people in Europe or even the US to be able to *drive* to another country.
We don't even have different dialects, it's the same lingo from one end to
the other.
> > It's crazy to sneakily give a (whatever a rozzer is) a dose of odema
> > with a smart arse remark??
> >
> > Are you sure that's english? ;^)
>
> Yes, though some of the words are argot rather than standard English:
> It's crazy to pay off a policeman in counterfeit money.
Ok, I can't imagine where the rozzer=police came from.
Dropsy I can (sorta) see, dropping something for him to pick up I guess.
Snide=fake/counterfeit didn't instantly mesh, but I guess you could stretch
it from clever/disparaging to 'funny' and then the allusion to 'funny money'
I guess.
But I'd never have connected cop=rozzer in a million years....
Like the Brits, we tend to be separated from the US by a common language.
Example: Tell an Aussie "I'll be in there rooting for you." and you'd get
a very
strange look (at a minimum). That term means sexual intercourse in
Australian
and British English. The word in our version of English would be
'barracking'.
An unenlightened Aussie would have a bizarre vision of someone having sex on
his behalf......
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"Tina Hall" <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org...
> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
> > Well, I think they are interesting, but then I am a bit biased
> > :^)
>
> <g>
> Would be a bit odd if you wrote something you weren't interested in.
> :)
That much is certain...
> > I was trying a little misdirection here. [...]
>
> Why? (To what purpose?)
Good question. Not sure. It felt right at the time. I realise that's
neither a reason
nor an excuse. In this instance it doesn't work for many people.
> It could get confusing when later you switch to another's thoughts
> without pause, or even when you never show the General's thoughts
> again throughout the rest of the story.
Well, I thought the transition (which isn't in the first 500 words) worked
well, but
if the reasons for it are flawed or simply don't exist it doesn't matter if
it works, it's
an unneccessary mind game as was indicated..
> > In reality as well. I had lunch with one a few weeks ago. Even
> > in peace time you don't get to be a general officer if you are an
> > idiot.
>
> I think I don't want to step there (failing to see the point in
> military, as a result of failing to see the point in war, and
> voluntary warfarers, or something). :)
Fair enough. However human nature is such that we always have and
in all probability always will be combative, competitive and at times fight
wars and kill. You don't get to the top of the food
chain unless you do. So several million years of cumulative evolution are
likely to keep us at least somewhat that way inclined. Everyone knows
what the oldest profession is, but do you know what the *second* oldest
profession is?
I digress...
> Let's stick to fiction.
> (Where I don't mind wars and Generals...)
<Nods> Anything to oblige a lady.
> > The intro doesn't do the man justice, he's no fool, but
> > he's, as he said "a soldier not a diplomat' and feels that he
> > shouldn't be there.
>
> He does seem a decent guy. With this opening, I'd like to see more
> of him than of that aide guy, who looks not all that interesting...
> (Meaning, my reaction wouldn't go well with where you lead the
> story...)
Ok, that makes sense.
> > His briefing was hasty because he hit the ground less than an hour
> > before he had to front for the conference. (Complex reasons)
>
> Maybe that's what should be told. It's fine that you elaborate here,
> but isn't this stuff that should be found out/obvious in the story
> instead?
Yes, and that's how I'm going to redo it.
> > No I think I just went overboard setting up the scene for the
> > conference. The aide *is* nervous, he's also as he said, 'just a
> > soldier' and he's wound up in this role by accident through
> > necessity.
>
> Maybe saying that he's nervous, rather than relying on the reader
> figuring it out from his behaviour, would help.
I was hoping that would get across without needing to be so specific,
but as you point out, that may not be sufficient...
> > Well, I don't agree with *all* of them, though I do intend to act
> > on their suggestions to some degree. Everyone that has responded
> > has suggested something that I have found useful, though not
> > necessarily everything.
>
> :) That's a relief. Some people are very vocal and focused on what a
> story 'should' be like, with no room for alternate opinions.
I always listen to opinions. Especially from people who have been there and
done that. But we are all different and writing is something of an
individual
pursuit, so some things will change based on some of the advice, some will
not.
However I also recall R.A.H. advising through one of his characters that we
should
always listen to experts, they'll tell you what can't be done and why, then
you can do it....
:^)
> > The background to the alien world and culture is significantly
> > more necessary to know 'in depth' as most of the story takes
> > place in that environment.
>
> Nothing wrong with that, I was refering to the opening here, where
> dumping the backround might be a bad idea.
Ok.
> [military story?]
> > So it's a story about war and peace rather than a war story if
> > that makes sense....
>
> Yes it does.
> I'd want to read.)
>
> > Hmm, ok, let me put it this way. There are only a couple of
> > actual 'military actions' in the story. One at the beginning
> > (which is what catapults the junior officer into the spotlight)
> > and another towards the end. One is a small unit action the other
> > a somewhat larger one. Whilst they are cuspal points in the
> > story, they are not the bulk of the story. The bulk of the story
> > is more about relationships/alliance between the protagonist and
> > the aliens and how that relates to the enemy and it's attempts to
> > prevent that alliance happening.
>
> That sounds as if the military is indeed just a part of the
> backround, necessary but not the focus for most of the time.
Essentially correct. He finds himself in the role of training them to
operate as a military *unit*, about which they have no clue as all
their combat is invariably one on one. Don't get me wrong here, these
aliens are at the top of *their* food chain and didn't get there by
diplomacy
and good thoughts anymore than we did, but the concept of widespread warfare
is as alien to them as vegemite is to an American.
He's first and foremost a soldier and is charged with teaching those who
will
train others so that they can work together with humans without getting each
other killed. The diplomatic role prededed it and was necessary
to allow the other role to proceed for reasons given in the story
There are some minor issues with the enemy finding itself dispossessed of
it's nieve ally and a concerted attempt to overthrow the ruling family at
the
end which also resolves most of the issues of the story...
It doesn't get deeply into the nuts and bolts of their training but mostly
focusses on how that affects them and their outlook.
> >> [...] I'd cherish a story where things don't go downhill because
> >> some selfrighteous idiot thinks he knows all, but instead the
> >> characters actually have a clue. :)
>
> > The characters I'm using very much have a clue. Even to the
> > point of picking the right man for the job despite age and rank
> > suggesting he's unsuitable.
>
> That's a refreshing change. :)
Well, it's supposed to be the future and we are supposed to *advance*.
> > So many stories focus on use military and or political stupidity
> > as a method to create a situation that it's beyond cliche.
>
> Indeed! :)
> Not just military or political. So much seems cheap soap opera plot,
> with misunderstandings, cluelessness, and deciding for others
> without sufficient information, instead of people who actually have
> brains and talk to and work with each other.
Exactly.
> > Some stuff I've read has people in positions of power that are so
> > mindbogglingly stupid it defies suspension of disbelief.
> "AOL!"
Exactly.
> > So I've taken that approach that the majority of people in *this*
> > military are rather more clueful and that the political heirarchy
> > have at least a few, including the man in charge just for a
> > change.
> :) 'Making it better'? Sounds familiar, though I haven't actually
> got a story for that, just stuff that I'd like to see done
> differently.
Well, that's sorta where the story comes from I guess.
> > The aliens are also not stupid, though they have a rather complex
> > and somewhat rigid culture that has a lot of formality in it.
>
> I'm not sure whether I'd like that, but that's irrelevant. :)
The formality is not stifling, I'm probably not describing it very well.
They are very comfortable with it and it's one of the reasons they have
no real concept of warfare on a scale beyond individual combat.
> > [...] I've tried to make the enemy as completely alien and
> > unlikeable as possible. They have no real saving graces and are
> > pure conquerors, but they aren't stupid and they rely on a lot of
> > deception and misdirection to disguise their real intent until
> > it's too late.
>
> Sounds interesting, and I'd like to find out whether it'll work the
> way you intend. (I often end up cheering the bad guys because there
> are no likable good guys...)
You won't like these bad guys. Trust me. Think of them as Al Quaeda with
no religion.
> > Not bad. The universal comment in just about every crit has been
> > the apostrophe laden language is irritating.
>
> I wouldn't say it is irritating, just something my eyes slide
> past... (Which is not the intended effect, either, I guess. :) )
No not really.
> > [...] The complexity of the language is a necessary element. The
> > initial reason for the involvement is that the language is so
> > complex that it's essentially impossible to learn correctly unless
> > you literally grow up speaking it.
>
> That doesn't mean it has to be unpronounceable. It could be easily
> said words where all the different meanings and usages still evade
> anyone who has not grown up with it. (Just a thought.)
Yeah, that seems to be where I am heading...
The CO
"Phil" <tls_...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1fg0eop7ebd7o.2idevbvpp32s$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:32:51 +0930, The CO wrote:
> I'd probably be OK with something along those lines if it was more a
> matter of the initial presentation making it possible that either
character
> might be the main protagonist.
Ok.
>Or, alternately, that the military unit as a
> whole is the main character, with those two characters as its main voice.
No not at all.
> Anything more definite than that, though, and I might end up disappointed.
Fair enough.
> > Mmmm, I'd have to say that aside from the first 500 words, the General
is
> > in the background pretty well and the other players start to emerge.
>
> In that case, assuming you keep this particular story point as the
> opening,
That's under serious review and will likely not be the case.
>might it not be better to let the General be mostly background in
> the opening as well (summarising some of his lines through narrative,
> keeping the scene in the PoV of the actual main character, or whatever
> works for you).
Yes, probably. But if I redo this it will move much further into the story
anyway. Moot.
> >> A novel about a bi-cultural young man I might well want to read.
> >
> > That's really what this is about.
>
> In that case, as a reader, I'd probably want to have the back cover
blurb
> and the opening make that clear from the get-go.
Yes, I had the same thought.
> Otherwise, one of two
> things would happen: I'd overlook the book as "some military sf story" if
I
> wasn't, at the time, in the mood for such stories or, conversely, if "some
> military sf story" is what I was looking for, I'd be rather annoyed when
> that's what it didn't turn out to be.
Been caught out that way myself.
> > I take all crit with a generous amount of seasoning. I can't possibly
make
> > everyone happy with it, so I have to take bits from here and there.
>
> Now that sounds like a healthy way of reading crits!
I'm new at this. At least some of the respondents either have authoring
experience
or at a minimum have *reading* experience. In either case, they have
insights that
I can use. Whilst there are elements of the story I will not change ( or
it wouldn't
be *my* story anymore) there is a lot that is somewhat negotiable and some
that
is very flexible indeed.
> > Cunning bastards though. They engineer several massacres and make it
look
> > like the protags people did it. Very convincingly, even using human
weapons
> > and such and leaving doctored surveillance footage behind as proof. No
> > survivors of course. The nice aliens fall for it and form a (somewhat
uneasy)
> > alliance against an apparent common enemy. The story basically kicks
off
> > when they get busted in the act by the ship the protag is on and they
hop in
> > and prevent the massacre. This creates a dilemma as they are
technically
> > at war and this leads to the (very short notice) conference.
>
> I was a little bit confused the first time I read your post about the
> alien culture, and with the above, I still am: are we dealing with
"humans"
> vs. "one alien culture" or with a human--alien culture #--alien culture 2
> situation?
Ok,
Race 1. Humans. Us.
Race 2. The 'nice' aliens.
Race 3. The 'bad' aliens.
Essentially the nice aliens get conned into an alliance with the bad aliens
against the humans.
The humans do something that changes this.
> I had a reaction similar to Catja's above -- pacifism and warrior-style
> honour seemed to clash, and my first thought was that I'd missed a
sentence
> explaining that there were two alien cultures. Or at least, two very
> different factions within that culture.
They are not pacifist in the sense you mean. They simply don't do
*organised* large scale warfare. If two factions have a beef they settle
it with weapons, but by an individual combat not a massacre. War as
we understand it was basically unknown to them. But pacifists don't get
to the top of the food chain, they become extinct...
> [snip how the protag is a native speaker of both English and the alien
> language, and can thus instinctively/unconsciously handle its extremely
> complex elements]
>
> >> and the speaker
> >> belongs to a different subgroup/tribe, how can he be *certain* that
he's
> >> getting it right?
> >
> > Only one language, no dialects etc. Sounds overly simplistic I realise
but
> > they have had a stable global society for a long time and have no
ethnicity to
> > speak of.
>
> I'll have to agree with Zeborah's comments, here. I could picture that
> degree of unicity in a language for a hive mind culture, but I'd
definitely
> expect language fragmentation in a culture capable of being both mostly
> pacifists and torturing prisoners for entertainment.
Um, I've put you on a bum steer somehow, the 'nice' aliens don't torture
anyone... That's the exclusive (well hopefully) precinct of the bad guys.
> Given what you've
> described about the very fine distinctions the language makes
grammatically
> explicit (knowing the sex of the speaker and the adressee and their
> relative rank, for instance), I'd actually expect a lot of dialects and
> regional variants to creep up, with the Imperial (or Capital, or whatever
> the political centre is) standard serving as the default for people from
> different parts of the planet (solar system, wherever).
>
My concept was that the very complexity of the language prevented it being
shifted or manipulated much as it would create major problems.
Small changes in complex functioning systems can be fatal to the system.
I've taken the position that the very complexity of the language makes it
very difficult to make changes. For this reason their progess has been
slower than others, in some respects they are 'hidebound' by it in fact, but
the postive tradeoff has been stability in both their language and their
civilisation.
> >> And even if he can speak it in context, has he ever learnt the
> >> formalities of written language?
> >
> > Yep. He did their equivalent of Primary School whilst being home
schooled
> > in his own language etc. He can read their 'common mark'. They have
a
>
> Interesting assumption there, though it could be that we understand the
> phrase 'learnt the formalities of written language' differently. Most
> people I know with high school or higher education in their native
language
> haven't really learnt the formalities of written language. They can read,
> but full comprehension of the written word, including the ability to write
> it well, which is how I understood the phrase, is beyond them.
Hmm, ok, I see what your point is. Not sure I can accomodate it other than
to say
that we tend to produce aliens that are frequently just humans with fur or
tentacles, and
whilst my aliens are likeable and seem 'humanistic' they are still alien.
> > You may assume he has a pefrect command of the language.
>
> In the same sense that an average native speaker of a language has a
> 'perfect' command of that language, or did you intend the above to be read
> more literally?
You could assume his command was that of a reasonably well educated member
of that race. So above 'average' since his need to be bilingual and provide
translation
from childhood forced him to develop his language skills, perhaps some
natural ability
helped here. His parents are both highly intelligent and well educated and
have some
skill with languages though they are anthropologists not linguists. He
finds himself in the
role of translator when his command of the language exceeds theirs, which
happens at
a fairly young age.
> > No disrespect, and I'm not bilingual, (no point where I live) but I am
given
> > to understand (by those that are) that there is a significant difference
> > between being bilingual and being a native speaker of two distinct
> > languages.
>
> As a data point, my experience disagrees, and for two of the three
> languages I speak, I'm essentially a native speaker. For the third, which
I
> now speak quite fluently if not quite at native level yet, I haven't
> noticed any difference between being a native speaker and being
'bilingual'
> in those areas of the language that I've thoroughly internalised.
Ok, interesting.
Ok, yes someone else had a similar experience. My friends (with one
exception) did
find themselves as translators from a surprisingly young age, as there is
some resistance
(particularly amongst the women - or perhaps imposed by their husbands) on
being fluent
in english. I've related the effect in another similar response so I won't
repeat it in detail.
> > Maybe it just works better for the protag because he has a gift for it,
or
>
> I can accept that he's gifted with languages. Having a certain facility
> for them myself, I'd be hard pressed to deny it. :)
>
Ok, I think we can assume that his ability is neither impossible nor even
unlikely in the circumstances and
any additional knack for it is simply natural talent....:^)
> But actual translation, and interpretation, which is actually what it
> sounds like your protagonist is going to be doing, still requires
training.
> For me to believe in the protagonist as an interpreter or translator of
the
> calibre your posts imply, I'd want to see references to his having
received
> specialised language training in *both* languages.
Got both. In Alien 'primary school' and in english from his academic
parents who home schooled him til
he was a teenager. That plus an ongoing *need* to provide translation from
an early age would focus that
ability fairly well.
> Without such training, I'd believe in his being able to interact smoothly
> with the aliens, and interact equally smoothly with the humans, but I'd
> expect his translations to be "gist of what the alien said" summaries that
> either strip away the subtle nuances the aliens make that humans don't, or
> tag those as post-translation explanations: "Well, sir, he said he'd think
> about your proposal, but his choice of words indicate that he sees you as
> an inferior." Or some such.
Ok, sometimes it *does* come out that way. There are a couple of occasions
where
he has to stop and say something like "Uh, he said we need to do, uh, well,
that doesn't quite translate, but
it's something like X" where no perfect equivalent exists. Given that we
are dealing with an alien mind and an
alien language, it seems unlikely that there would not be situations like
that arising...
> Mind you, I'm going to be much pickier than the average reader on such
> points because I have a bi-cultural background in my own country and
> currently live abroad, in a third culture. That will naturally make me
more
> picky about plausibility and believability in a story with a focus such as
> yours.
We are all products of our environment. It's a bit tricky to write stuff
about someone
bilingual when I can't deal effectively with anything but english, but the
country I was
born in and live in has no real use for any other language.
> All in my opinion, of course. Season to taste. :)
Of course. It's been very interesting, thank you.
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
Dan Goodman
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message
>> "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in
>>
>> > "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> Just for the heck of it, I'm going to throw in some bits of
>> >> English which I suspect a translator would have problems with:
>> >
>> >> It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.
>> >
>> > I speak (only) english and I have only a vague idea what much of
>> > that means. i have no clue what a rozzer is was or smells like.
>> > Crackers would be crazy, not sure what dropsy means in that
>> > context, as I parse it as a (somwhat archaeic) term for odema or
>> > fluid retention in the tissues.
>> > and snide I understood to mean sarcastic and/or disparaging, as in
>> > a snide remark..
>> >
>> >> Pretentious? Moi? (I'd love to see a French translation of that
>> >> one....)
>> >
>> > I'd like to see an Australian translation of it :^)
>>
>> So -- no Australian ever uses French words in order to sound more
>> artistic/educated?
>
> Lol. I understood the Moi. Probably, in fact, I may had done so
> myself, but my knowledge of any foreign language is limited to a few
> common words and phrases, there is really very little use for anything
> but English in this country unless you travel overseas. I sometimes
> envy the ability of people in Europe or even the US to be able to
> *drive* to another country. We don't even have different dialects,
> it's the same lingo from one end to the other.
Offhand, I suspect there are class dialects; and immigrant dialects
influenced by other languages. I'd be surprised if there weren't also
some geographical differences. Perhaps
the geographical differences are equivalent to the differences between
Northern California
and Southern California, rather than (say) between Newfoundland English
and Vancouver English.
Brian Pickrell
> "Brian Pickrell" <bobth...@brandx.net> wrote in message
> news:eed75299.04080...@posting.google.com...
> > "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote
> >
> > >
> > > Yes! Exactly. This was originally going to be further in, and at some
> > > point I thought
> > > it could work as an opening, but the more I get into it the less that
> seems
> > > to work.
> >
> > Do you know what _does_ work, or how to tell if it's working, or what
> > you want an opening to accomplish?
>
> Not in any way I could define until I have tried it and then tried it on
> others
> to see if *they* think it works. I have no training in writing or
> anything related
> to it, so what little I know is gleaned from how other authors have
> structured their
> works.
Something to think about. Whether you're trying to establish a milieu
or introduce a character or start a chain of events that gets the plot
rolling or just tickle the reader's fancy, you're much more likely to
succeed if you know what you *want* to accomplish than just shooting
in the dark. I wouldn't rely on feedback too much for two reasons:
1) you'll get a lot of dumb feedback and you have to have some sort
of basis for deciding which feedback to listen to; 2) whether an
opening "works" is such a complex and context-dependent question that
by the time you can answer it, the story's practically done.
Conventional wisdom around here has it that you must start off with a
hook that will "grab" the reader (or a purchasing editor) in the first
page or two, though that's certainly far from universal in literature.
But it does make sense for a new novelist trying to make a first
sale.
>
> I have an idea about how it could work better, basically it involves telling
> the story
> from the beginning of the protags involvement instead of picking it up after
> one major
> event has already occurred and bringing out the previous event in the course
> of the
> conference...
Would that accomplish your goals better?
Brian Pickrell
> news:eed75299.04080...@posting.google.com...
> > "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote
> >
> > >
> > > Yes! Exactly. This was originally going to be further in, and at some
> > > point I thought
> > > it could work as an opening, but the more I get into it the less that
> seems
> > > to work.
> >
> > Do you know what _does_ work, or how to tell if it's working, or what
> > you want an opening to accomplish?
>
> Not in any way I could define until I have tried it and then tried it on
> others
> to see if *they* think it works. I have no training in writing or
> anything related
> to it, so what little I know is gleaned from how other authors have
> structured their
> works.
Something to think about. Whether you're trying to establish a milieu
or introduce a character or start a chain of events that gets the plot
rolling or just tickle the reader's fancy, you're much more likely to
succeed if you know what you *want* to accomplish than just shooting
in the dark. I wouldn't rely on feedback too much for two reasons:
1) you'll get a lot of dumb feedback and you have to have some sort
of basis for deciding which feedback to listen to; 2) whether an
opening "works" is such a complex and context-dependent question that
by the time you can answer it, the story's practically done.
Conventional wisdom around here has it that you must start off with a
hook that will "grab" the reader (or a purchasing editor) in the first
page or two, though that's certainly far from universal in literature.
But it does make sense for a new novelist trying to make a first
sale.
>
> I have an idea about how it could work better, basically it involves telling
> the story
> from the beginning of the protags involvement instead of picking it up after
> one major
> event has already occurred and bringing out the previous event in the course
> of the
> conference...
Would that accomplish your goals better?
Tina Hall
> "Tina Hall" <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote
>> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
[real Generals with brains...]
>> I think I don't want to step there (failing to see the point in
>> military, as a result of failing to see the point in war, and
>> voluntary warfarers, or something). :)
> Fair enough. However human nature is such that we always have
> and in all probability always will be combative, competitive and
> at times fight wars and kill.
I don't understand competition, either. :)
> You don't get to the top of the food chain unless you do.
Hmmm... Considering my VUP (very ugly pet, the story I'm at the
moment evading to work on), that's not necessarily the case. (The
critters in that are more evasive, but there aren't many, so that's
not a problem. Unless you count preying on the rest of nature as
'combative, competetive and warfaring'. Among themselves, 'war',
'competition' or 'combat' doesn't even come to mind, and the rest of
nature can't compete with or fight them.)
> So several million years of cumulative evolution are likely to
> keep us at least somewhat that way inclined.
I figured out the cause, but that doesn't mean I have to see the
point in continuing the same way. :)
Instead, I wonder whether this is necessary (given nature) to be the
case with hypothetical real aliens, too. Or fictious aliens,
considering the topic of this newsgroup.
>> Let's stick to fiction. (Where I don't mind wars and Generals...)
> <Nods> Anything to oblige a lady.
<looking around> What lady? Oh, I think I've seen one running off
that way... <g>
>> Maybe saying that he's nervous, rather than relying on the
>> reader figuring it out from his behaviour, would help.
> I was hoping that would get across without needing to be so
> specific, but as you point out, that may not be sufficient...
I might guess that he's nervous, but I don't like guessing or having
to figure out what's going on. I prefer facts. :) I'm told that
others like guessing...
>> :) That's a relief. Some people are very vocal and focused on
>> what a story 'should' be like, with no room for alternate
>> opinions.
> I always listen to opinions. Especially from people who have
> been there and done that. But we are all different and writing is
> something of an individual pursuit, so some things will change
> based on some of the advice, some will not.
Neat.
I also have to think of a saying from my grandmother (I think) which
went approximately: "Pleasing everyone is an art that no one can."
(Trying to keep some kind of rhyme here. Um, now I can't properly
recall the German saying anymore, it was there a moment ago. Anyway,
I guess the meaning gets across.)
> However I also recall R.A.H. advising through one of his
> characters that we should always listen to experts, they'll tell
> you what can't be done and why, then you can do it.... :^)
:) I like that.
[...]
>> That sounds as if the military is indeed just a part of the
>> backround, necessary but not the focus for most of the time.
> Essentially correct. He finds himself in the role of training
> them to operate as a military *unit*, about which they have no
> clue as all their combat is invariably one on one. Don't get me
> wrong here, these aliens are at the top of *their* food chain and
> didn't get there by diplomacy and good thoughts anymore than we
> did,
So with your aliens it's part of the nature, too.
It sounds as if you've thought this all out well, to make a coherent
society. Makes me all the more curious. :)
> but the concept of widespread warfare is as alien to them as
> vegemite is to an American.
What's vegemite?
> [...] It doesn't get deeply into the nuts and bolts of their
> training but mostly focusses on how that affects them and their
> outlook.
I think I'd like that. Characters, especially unusual ones, are more
intersting than action scenes. :)
>>> The characters I'm using very much have a clue. Even to the
>>> point of picking the right man for the job despite age and rank
>>> suggesting he's unsuitable.
>>
>> That's a refreshing change. :)
> Well, it's supposed to be the future and we are supposed to
> *advance*.
Optimist. <g>
>>> The aliens are also not stupid, though they have a rather
>>> complex and somewhat rigid culture that has a lot of formality
>>> in it.
>>
>> I'm not sure whether I'd like that, but that's irrelevant. :)
> The formality is not stifling, I'm probably not describing it
> very well. They are very comfortable with it and it's one of the
> reasons they have no real concept of warfare on a scale beyond
> individual combat.
Ah. That could be different, then. 'Stiff'(-ling) and restricting is
indeed what I thought of.
Getting it across right seems difficult, though. Good luck with
that. :)
[...]
>> Sounds interesting, and I'd like to find out whether it'll work
>> the way you intend. (I often end up cheering the bad guys
>> because there are no likable good guys...)
> You won't like these bad guys. Trust me. Think of them as Al
> Quaeda with no religion.
Do you have a fictious example instead?
(I just don't understand these guys, and disagree with some of the
reactions to them, and am basically not very well informed due to
news being biased, and not very interested since I don't understand
any of it and am uninterested in finding explanations. I don't want
to think of these guys, or discuss them, and refuse to just go with
the cliche picture.)
Re: Bilingual. I only know 1 language, that's .5 English and .5
German (with English, written is just far easier than spoken because
I have no practice in speaking English). I don't have to translate
any of this stuff here to read/write it, I read/write it as it is.
Same as if I'd do it in German. Translating it from one to the other
is very difficult, though, especially when an English phrase or word
pops into my mind in a German conversation; most of the time I'll
simply not be able to express it in German because at that moment I
don't know how to translate it. (English stuff often pops into my
mind because I read and write much more English than I talk, or even
read or write, in German.)
I can switch from one to the other, or rather, I just go with what
I'm presented; one time I sent a (German) aquaintance some English
text in an email, and then accidentally continued to write in
English before I caught on, and reverted back to German. Switching
isn't a problem because it doesn't involve translation.
Could be that your protagonist has a knack for languages, though
(which I haven't got at all). Some people are good at instant
translations. (Like those that translate the stuff English celebrity
guests say in life shows here on TV. They translate what they heard
while they listen to the next bit.)
Re: The entire alien race speaking one language with no dialects.
Where's the problem? They're aliens, not humans in rubber suits,
right? :)
--
Tina - What context?
Elyvilon says: Go forth and aid the weak!"
Trog says: Kill them all! (Dungeon Crawl)
Brian M. Scott
<as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in
<news:4118e...@news.iprimus.com.au> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "Phil" <tls_...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1fg0eop7ebd7o.2idevbvpp32s$.dlg@40tude.net...
[...]
>> Given what you've described about the very fine
>> distinctions the language makes grammatically explicit
>> (knowing the sex of the speaker and the adressee and
>> their relative rank, for instance), I'd actually expect
>> a lot of dialects and regional variants to creep up,
>> with the Imperial (or Capital, or whatever the political
>> centre is) standard serving as the default for people
>> from different parts of the planet (solar system,
>> wherever).
> My concept was that the very complexity of the language
> prevented it being shifted or manipulated much as it
> would create major problems. Small changes in complex
> functioning systems can be fatal to the system. I've
> taken the position that the very complexity of the
> language makes it very difficult to make changes.
I don't really find this credible, I'm afraid. To begin
with, no one has yet come up with any way of defining (let
alone measuring) linguistic complexity. On top of that,
their extended family groups look like an ideal breeding
ground for linguistic diversity. You can say, as you did to
Zeborah, that this is anthropomorphizing, but the fact is
that all we have to go on is human language plus whatever we
know about communication within other terrestrial species,
and that says that languages always change and diversify.
You can persuade me that change for your aliens is on
average much slower than it is on average for us, but I
don't think that you can persuade me that it doesn't occur
at a rate noticeable to their society.
Also, how did this language come about in the first place?
Was it created, à la Esperanto, or did it evolve normally?
[...]
Brian
Suzanne A Blom
The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in message
news:4118d...@news.iprimus.com.au...
people, but that's what sf is for. I think at some point, Protagonist is
going to have to come right out & say, maybe with dawning realization on his
own part, "Yeah, you're right. That really is kind of strange. I never
thought of it like that before."
Zeborah
> "Zeborah" <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1giak8r.1fym8uporu24qN%zeb...@gmail.com...
> > Language and
> > ethnicity don't work like that;
>
> No disrespect but you are anthropromorphising. Humans are no doubt like
> that, but an ALIEN race may not be. And this one isn't....
I'm not anthropomorphising, though I may be terramorphising. Birds have
dialects too. I don't know about other mammals or bees.
> >they're about a sense of belonging, and
> > people just don't get a sense of belonging out of a stable global
> > society of umpteen billion people.
>
> They get their sense of 'belonging' from their extended family group. For
> biological reasons they live in family arrangement that is something
> between a tribe and a group marriage with new members joining on occasion
> and born in members leaving occasionally. This extended family grouping is
> their home as much as the dwellings they live in.
>
> That's one of the alien things about them.
That's not alien. It's not like any current Western culture, but it's
not at all alien.
> > They get a sense of belonging from
> > their family, or their peer group, or their interest group, and thus
> > language change happens:
>
> Except it's not in their personality to do so. Humans thrive on change,
> they thrive on stability. Not static, but stable, they innovate and
> invent and adapt but they tend to do it as a collective. It could be said
> they are more 'social' than we are and less independent.
What is the 'collective' that innovates? If it's the entire species,
then how do they communicate that "we will now use this new word" or
"this grammatical structure can now be used this way" or "this phoneme
is now going to change to that phoneme in the presence of these other
phonemes".
If they don't do this now, then when/why/how did they stop? Because
they certainly did it before, to get from no-language to
super-complex-language; and that would have happened before
communication technology came along to help out. This is why I'd expect
an extended family group here to choose one solution, and an extended
family group over there to choose another, and bang, before you know it
you have different languages.
(If all the family groups evolved in the same area, that's just plain
dangerous evolutionarily. A single localised disaster and the entire
species is gone. Not to mention that the higher population density is,
the faster disease spreads -- and if they live long lives and don't
reproduce frequently then there may even be less genetic diversity which
helps protect a species from extinction by disease.)
Anyway, none of this is stuff that I need to know here in the newsgroup.
What you should mainly take from this is that many readers will have
these and other questions, so you need to make sure that the book
answers those questions either before they're raised or very soon after.
> > If I see that claim in a book, without seriously good handwaving to back
> > it up, I'll assume that the author doesn't know the first thing about
> > languages.
>
> Probably don't. But there is nothing handed down on tablets of stone that
> says a non human race with a totally different way of thinking and doing
> things has to have things occur the same way as they do for humans.. One
> of the problems I find with most scifi aliens is that they generally sound
> far *too* human to be convincingly alien, as if they were ordinary people
> with tentacles or fur or whatever. The aliens I'm trying to create here
> resemble something familiar to us and *appear* to think act and value
> things in the same manner as we do, and in some respects, that is the
> case, however they also have some very significant differences that are
> caused both by biology and a different way of thinking about the universe
> and their place in it.
This is fine, great even. Just that some of the differences you've
described so far are things that I've seen occur as mistakes or cliches
in other books; so you need to be careful that in your book the reader
will have no excuse for thinking it's a mistake or cliche in this book
too.
> > What I could believe would be that in addition to local languages
> > everyone learns a common language; that he learnt this common language;
> > and that this language is used in their military because otherwise
> > people wouldn't understand each others' local languages.
>
> I did consider that mechanism, but felt it was going down the path of
> what people would do in such a circumstance. From situations like this,
> things like Pidgin have arisen... Trade languages..
If such an organisation were to start up today, I'd expect it to use
English, not any kind of pidgin. A few hundred years ago in Europe,
maybe French. A few hundred years before that, certainly Latin. A few
hundred years in the future -- don't know, but I could believe any of
Japanese, Korean, Mandarin (preferably with an alphabet or syllablary),
Spanish, Hindu, Arabic....
I *think* pidgins and trade languages (such as Swahili) have mostly been
used where there hasn't been the kind of authority that can impose a
single pre-existing language. A military organisation has that
authority, and would probably not want to mess around creating a
standard pidgin. (Because whatever language(s) is/are used, it needs to
be standardised to work for a military force.)
Zeborah
Dan Goodman
> If such an organisation were to start up today, I'd expect it to use
> English, not any kind of pidgin. A few hundred years ago in Europe,
> maybe French. A few hundred years before that, certainly Latin. A
> few hundred years in the future -- don't know, but I could believe any
> of Japanese, Korean, Mandarin (preferably with an alphabet or
> syllablary), Spanish, Hindu, Arabic....
I think the kind of English used in India and Pakistan would be a good
candidate.
> I *think* pidgins and trade languages (such as Swahili) have mostly
> been used where there hasn't been the kind of authority that can
> impose a single pre-existing language. A military organisation has
> that authority, and would probably not want to mess around creating a
> standard pidgin. (Because whatever language(s) is/are used, it needs
> to be standardised to work for a military force.)
I've read that the Austro-Hungarian Empire's army had a German-based
pidgin.
Phil
[The book really being about a bi-cultural young man]
>> In that case, as a reader, I'd probably want to have the back cover
>> blurb and the opening make that clear from the get-go.
>
> Yes, I had the same thought.
Given how much input authors reputedly have in such matters, at least
until they become established, I guess this would be a "cross your fingers
and hope the publisher/marketing department/editor/whoever is in charge
agrees" situation! :)
[Taking all crits with a generous amount of seasoning]
>> Now that sounds like a healthy way of reading crits!
>
> I'm new at this. At least some of the respondents either have authoring
> experience or at a minimum have *reading* experience. In either case,
> they have insights that I can use. Whilst there are elements of the story
> I will not change ( or it wouldn't be *my* story anymore) there is a lot that
> is somewhat negotiable and some that is very flexible indeed.
I thought Usenet, and the internet in general, had rules against being
that reasonable and open-minded! :->
[My "how many alien cultures?" confusion]
> Ok,
> Race 1. Humans. Us.
> Race 2. The 'nice' aliens.
> Race 3. The 'bad' aliens.
> Essentially the nice aliens get conned into an alliance with the bad aliens
> against the humans. The humans do something that changes this.
OK.
>> I had a reaction similar to Catja's above -- pacifism and warrior-style
>> honour seemed to clash, and my first thought was that I'd missed a
>> sentence explaining that there were two alien cultures. Or at least,
>> two very different factions within that culture.
>
> They are not pacifist in the sense you mean. They simply don't do
> *organised* large scale warfare. If two factions have a beef they settle
> it with weapons, but by an individual combat not a massacre. War as
> we understand it was basically unknown to them. But pacifists don't get
> to the top of the food chain, they become extinct...
Intriguing. If this had been the case for a long time, though, and the
society has cooperative endeavours in other fields, I'd be wondering why
the concept of cooperating in combat hasn't occured to anyone, or why
they've rejected it if it had, and would be hoping for the story to
eventually answer that.
>> I'll have to agree with Zeborah's comments, here. I could picture that
>> degree of unicity in a language for a hive mind culture, but I'd
>> definitely expect language fragmentation in a culture capable of
>> being both mostly pacifists and torturing prisoners for entertainment.
>
> Um, I've put you on a bum steer somehow, the 'nice' aliens don't torture
> anyone... That's the exclusive (well hopefully) precinct of the bad guys.
It could have been a case of my misreading your explanations. Probably a
bit of both. :)
>> Given what you've described about the very fine distinctions the
>> language makes grammatically explicit (knowing the sex of the
>> speaker and the adressee and their relative rank, for instance), I'd
>> actually expect a lot of dialects and regional variants to creep up,
>> with the Imperial (or Capital, or whatever the political centre is)
>> standard serving as the default for people from different parts of
>> the planet (solar system, wherever).
>>
> My concept was that the very complexity of the language prevented it being
> shifted or manipulated much as it would create major problems.
> Small changes in complex functioning systems can be fatal to the system.
> I've taken the position that the very complexity of the language makes it
> very difficult to make changes. For this reason their progess has been
> slower than others, in some respects they are 'hidebound' by it in fact, but
> the postive tradeoff has been stability in both their language and their
> civilisation.
I wonder if you mightn't, inadvertently, be falling into the trap that
language complexity means "lots of grammatical rules that my language
doesn't have". Many people, for instance, think of Japanese as "complex",
but I find it, in general, simpler than English. It also has some fairly
extreme dialectal variations... people from different regions can't
understand one another if each is speaking only in their local dialect
instead of 'standard Japanese'.
Languages, much like living organisms, either evolve or perish. The rate
of evolution varies, but so long as each member of the alien culture is an
individual rather than a cog in the collective hive mind, I expect the
language to change over time. If you imply the evolution is slow and that
dialectal variations are relatively minor, I'll buy it given some of the
other aspects of the society you've mentioned elsewhere. But a single,
unified, static language is going to be more difficult for me to accept,
even if it's qualified as an alien science-fictional language.
[On learning the "formalities of written language"]
>> Interesting assumption there, though it could be that we understand the
>> phrase 'learnt the formalities of written language' differently. Most
>> people I know with high school or higher education in their native
>> language haven't really learnt the formalities of written language. They
>> can read, but full comprehension of the written word, including the
>> ability to write it well, which is how I understood the phrase, is beyond
>> them.
>
> Hmm, ok, I see what your point is. Not sure I can accomodate it other than
> to say that we tend to produce aliens that are frequently just humans with
> fur or tentacles, and whilst my aliens are likeable and seem 'humanistic'
> they are still alien.
Sure, but I was thinking about your human protagonist when I wrote the
above. His having been brought up in the alien culture isn't, to my mind,
necessarily going to guarantee his command of the written language.
>>> You may assume he has a pefrect command of the language.
>>
>> In the same sense that an average native speaker of a language has a
>> 'perfect' command of that language, or did you intend the above to be read
>> more literally?
>
> You could assume his command was that of a reasonably well educated member
> of that race. So above 'average' since his need to be bilingual and provide
> translation from childhood forced him to develop his language skills, perhaps some
> natural ability helped here.
I'd certainly expect natural ability to be a factor there.
> His parents are both highly intelligent and well educated and have some
> skill with languages though they are anthropologists not linguists. He
> finds himself in the role of translator when his command of the language
> exceeds theirs, which happens at a fairly young age.
Fair enough, for the most part. I'd like to note, though, that given what
you've presented so far, it should be possible, if difficult, for an adult
to acquire full command of the alien language, provided the adult in
question lived immersively in the alien culture for a long time and made a
serious commitment to learning the language. This probably isn't something
that would matter to the story, but I think you'd want to avoid a
categorical, 100% objective "it's impossible for adults to fully learn"
rule rather than having such a comment simply be the opinion of one or more
characters.
[snip]
>> Well, bilingualism isn't a binary condition that's either on or off.
>> It's more of a continuum. My experience of situations such as the
>> above, though, involves zero translation: once you reach native
>> or near-native level in a language, you can carry a conversation in
>> those languages simultaneously precisely *because* there's no
>> translation involved: hear language A, get the meaning instantly and
>> automatically; same with language B. You don't actually need to think
>> about the meaning of individual words, phrases or grammatical nuances.
>>
>> If you have to translate, though, it's a whole different matter, because
>> you can't just "get" the meaning and move on, you have to think about how
>> that same meaning is expressed in the other language. Sometimes, the
>> translation comes out automatically, but other times, especially if the
>> language you're translating to makes distinctions the language you're
>> translating from doesn't, you get stuck for a bit thinking about which
>> nuance is more appropriate.
> Ok, yes someone else had a similar experience. My friends (with one
> exception) did find themselves as translators from a surprisingly young
> age, as there is some resistance (particularly amongst the women - or
> perhaps imposed by their husbands) on being fluent in english. I've
> related the effect in another similar response so I won't repeat it in detail.
Hmm... I wonder if anyone ever studied such cases to see how accurate,
fluent and idomatic the translations were. I'm not personally acquainted
with anyone in a situation such as you describe. All cases I'm familiar
with involve one bilingual parent and one monolingual one, with the
children generally becoming either equally incompetent in both languages,
or ending up as native speakers of the language shared by both parents but
not of the bilingual parent's first language. There are, of course,
exceptions, where the children do grow up fully bilingual, but they're
rarer and usually involve a fair degree of effort on the part of the
monolingual parent to become at least good enough at the other language to
understand it if not actually speak it.
>>> Maybe it just works better for the protag because he has a gift for it,
>>
>> I can accept that he's gifted with languages. Having a certain facility
>> for them myself, I'd be hard pressed to deny it. :)
>>
> Ok, I think we can assume that his ability is neither impossible nor even
> unlikely in the circumstances and any additional knack for it is simply
> natural talent....:^)
Now you only need to make sure that this comes across in the story.
[Actual translation and interpretation requiring specialised training in
both languages]
> Got both. In Alien 'primary school' and in english from his academic
> parents who home schooled him til he was a teenager. That plus
> an ongoing *need* to provide translation from an early age would
> focus that ability fairly well.
Necessity will definitely help, but I don't think we're thinking of the
same thing when I say "specialised training". :)
>> Without such training, I'd believe in his being able to interact smoothly
>> with the aliens, and interact equally smoothly with the humans, but I'd
>> expect his translations to be "gist of what the alien said" summaries that
>> either strip away the subtle nuances the aliens make that humans don't, or
>> tag those as post-translation explanations: "Well, sir, he said he'd think
>> about your proposal, but his choice of words indicate that he sees you as
>> an inferior." Or some such.
>
> Ok, sometimes it *does* come out that way. There are a couple of occasions
> where he has to stop and say something like "Uh, he said we need to do,
> uh, well, that doesn't quite translate, but it's something like X" where no
> perfect equivalent exists. Given that we are dealing with an alien mind and
> an alien language, it seems unlikely that there would not be situations like
> that arising...
Sounds good. What I'm trying to point out is that this would also occur
for things that do, or at least -could- have near-perfect or even perfect
equivalents. Heck, it even happens to monolingual speakers: ever had the
"it's on the tip of my tongue" feeling when you just know there's an
expression that perfectly expresses what you're trying to say but you just
can't remember it at the time.
[How my background makes me sensitive to multicultural, multilingual stuff]
> We are all products of our environment. It's a bit tricky to write stuff
> about someone bilingual when I can't deal effectively with anything
> but english, but the country I was born in and live in has no real use
> for any other language.
My own, very biased opinion, is that on an individual level, *everyone*
has real use for a second language and 'should' learn one. Of course, for
many people, it's simply not important enough to be considered worth making
time for.
Catja Pafort
> Conventional wisdom around here has it that you must start off with a
> hook that will "grab" the reader (or a purchasing editor) in the first
> page or two, though that's certainly far from universal in literature.
> But it does make sense for a new novelist trying to make a first
> sale.
I'd say it always makes sense, because bookbuyers and readers will pick
up, read the first paragraph, may read a couple of pages and decide
whether to buy it...
'keeping the reader's attention' != 'starting with action' - you can
hook a reader with poetic language (hello Graydon!), strangeness that
wants an explanation, humour...
Action is one way, but not all books are suited to it. Starting too
early (with pages or chapters of introductions and explanations before
the story begins) is as bad as starting too late (I've bounced straight
out of books that read as if I should know the first part - and there
was no first part).
Whatever works, is the mantra. Nine-and-sixty ways, and all that.
Catja
Catja Pafort
> the country I was
> born in and live in has no real use for any other language.
I wonder what country that might be, since there has been a strong
movement towards early foreign-language teaching in parts of Australia,
so *someone* obviously sees a utility in it...
Catja
Catja Pafort
> > Language and
> > ethnicity don't work like that;
>
> No disrespect but you are anthropromorphising. Humans are no doubt like
> that, but an ALIEN race may not be. And this one isn't....
Until we meet that alien alien, they need to be something humans can
relate to.
Everything on this planet whose language we have halfway deciphered,
including bees, has dialects; so it's a good guess that a social animal,
however alien it might be, will use language _creatively_ .
I mean, there are just so *many* ways in which language shifts. Randomly
pulled from the air:
- if your speaking apparatus differs, you might find certain sounds more
easy or more difficult to produce. I don't know whether the fabled 'r/l'
problem _has_ a biological rather than a cultural root (I don't think
that Englishmen and women are biologically incapable of pronouncing the
Welsh ll or the Scottish ch; yet few manage), but it's conceivable.
- extreme climates - in very cold, hot, or bug-ridden climates, speaking
clearly with your mouth wide open might not occur.
- babyspeak - primitive forms of language adopted by the young; which
are used by adults for various reasons
- social coherence - from family in-jokes through tribes and professions
to ethnicities the use of a common vocabulary that divides 'us' from
'them' is a bonding tool and will increase the coherence within the
group that uses them. Sometimes the function is only social, sometimes
it's a shortcut that means that to someone who is 'of your tribe' you
don't need to launch into lengthy explanations every time you use a
certain phrase. Which, when you want to discuss any topic at all at
length, makes a lot of sense.
- poetry and creative use of language. Take Graydon's 'rack of platypy.'
You cannot *say* that in English, but it can be understood. Being
creative and playing with language, is a wonderful tool for expanding
the human brain (important function in the development of intelligent)
and if the emergence of phrases like 'cat-hoovering' makes people laugh,
that, too, is of importance. A language that does not change is a
language that does not evolve, and it's also a language that is unlikely
to be useful for dealing with new concepts. (No matter how expansive
your language is, there will always be concepts that cannot be expressed
in it)
- lack of centralisation. If language does never change, it means that
someone needs to watch over it, and that someone needs to have
authority.
Germany had a spelling reform a few years back, which is going to be
scrapped, or so I hear. While it was compulsory for most schools and
civil servants, and adopted by many publishers and newspapers, some
people (both writers and newspapers) refused to play - and enough people
refused to play for it to be called a failed experiment. (Which means
I'll write correctly once more, heh heh)
For your language to not evolve, or to evolve at the same speed and in
the same direction everywhere at the same time, you'll need someone to
decide what's allowed and what isn't; and the correct form needs to have
an extremely high penetration, meaning everybody must be surrounded by
it all the time.
- tones and speed of speech seem to be social phenomena; some people
speak slowly, whileothersrabbitonveryveryquickly, and their
distribution seems to vary not only chorologically but also
chronologically - it can be interesting to watch 1930s footage of your
own language, or simply observe regional differences
> They get their sense of 'belonging' from their extended family group. For
> biological reasons they live in family arrangement that is something
> between a tribe and a group marriage with new members joining on occasion
> and born in members leaving occasionally. This extended family grouping is
> their home as much as the dwellings they live in.
>
> That's one of the alien things about them.
I don't find that so alien at all.
>Their population is relatively small and they have an extremely low
>birthrate and.... very... long lives... which is why they have a low
>birthrate.......
Non sequitur. In fact, I expect them to have a higher birthrate than
would be necessary for the continuation of their species; hence the
expansionism. I know it's the traditional mechanism for elves, but have
you considered turtles?
> > If I see that claim in a book, without seriously good handwaving to back
> > it up, I'll assume that the author doesn't know the first thing about
> > languages.
>
> Probably don't. But there is nothing handed down on tablets of stone that
> says a non human race with a totally different way of thinking and doing
> things has to have things occur the same way as they do for humans..
No, it just has to make sense. And if you are proposing something very
alien, you need to work a lot harder to make it plausible.
> Some of my bilingual friends were also very much cast into that role.
> They grew up learning (in one case) English and Greek. This guy became
> very proficient at both. For various reasons, his parents never got
> beyond so so at English and his mother pretty much didn't bother, she
> stuck with her Greek friends and family and rarely needed to, when she
> did, Nick very often found himself translating and he became *very* good
> at it, continuing in that role for nearly 20 years til he married and left
> home. (Which simply meant that his younger sister who was the
> 'understudy' when he wasn't around, took over the job...)
(Not everybody who is bilingual has that experience; I know that
scenario happens)
I am, however, still concerned at the idea that a teenager would
understand concepts in another language that are beyond his
understanding within his own culture; and there are some things that a
child or youth simply *cannot* understand without having lived a little;
so his language/translation level will not _be_ that of an adult.
Catja
Catja Pafort
> > Cherryh's 'Fading Sun Trilogy' has that realisation.
>
> Not one I've read. If you say so.
> I don't think the concept is new, I hope to be able to give a somewhat
> different treatment.
Oh, completely; but I thought you might want to see how someone else has
dealt with the problem.
> > > They have no real saving graces
> >
> > A strong sense of personal honour?
>
> Not even that really. Their idea of 'honour' involves making trophies out
> of the body parts of their prisoners. Surrender to them only guarantees
> your name will be recorded as having assisted their empire by graciously
> allowing yourself to be killed. In short, if you surrender to them, you
> get to die quickly, if you just plain lose, survivors are tortured to
> death for the amusement of the troops as punishment for not surrendering.
As a long-term strategy, that seems to suck, particularly if you want to
keep your own losses low. (And if your offspring is precious, then you
do). If there is no incentive for the other side to surrender, they'll
fight, and die on their own term, and try to take out as many enemies as
they can; because they cannot 'win' if they surrender, but they might
just win, or lose not as badly, if they continue fighting. (They sound
like your archetypical Dark Lords)
> >> and are pure conquerors, but they aren't stupid and they rely on a lot
> >>of deception and misdirection to disguise their real intent until it's
> >>too late.
>
> > It seems to me that basically noncombatant and conquerors don't go
> > together all that well.
>
> Cunning bastards though. They engineer several massacres and make it look
> like the protags people did it. Very convincingly, even using human
> weapons and such and leaving doctored surveillance footage behind as
> proof.
When Ggu and Ggo first waged war upon each other, they didn't have
surveillance footage at hand. Your aliens need a history of
unwillingness to fight *and* conquering; and you'll need to be really
really convincing to pull that one off.
> > And even if he can speak it in context, has he ever learnt the
> > formalities of written language?
>
> Yep. He did their equivalent of Primary School whilst being home schooled
> in his own language etc. He can read their 'common mark'. They have a
> quite different form they use for certain types of document that he hasn't
> encountered. He also kept up with their forms of entertainment (video,
> books etc) in addition to English, all the time he was in High School and
> university and he visited his parents on the alien world a couple times a
> year at least for varying periods until quite recently... You may assume
> he has a pefrect command of the language.
I'd assume that his command of the language is adequate - as adequate as
that of any native speaker, maybe (although you'll have to work to make
me accept that) - but perfect? Language? Get real.
> > The complexities of military contexts?
>
> Not much of that nature in the language, strictly speaking they have no
> 'military context' as they essentially had no military until quite
> recently. His command of the language is literally that of a native
> speaker.
I know native speakers of English (not dyslexic) who cannot spell for
toffee (or spell 'toffee', for that matter), who have a vocabulary that
does not go much beyond grunts, (and probably would capitulate at
Grunts) and who cannot envision picking up books for fun...
> > And how come he aquired the ability to _translate_ those automatic
> > nuances? I'm bilingual, and a lousy translator - it doesn't come
> > automatically.
>
> No disrespect, and I'm not bilingual, (no point where I live)
It'll widen your horizon. There is very much a point to being bilingual,
even when you already speak English.
>but I am given to understand (by those that are) that there is a
>significant difference between being bilingual and being a native
>speaker of two distinct languages.
That is generally what 'bilingual' refers to - not just speaking
languages, but having learnt them as native languages. (there is a
difference between first and second+ language learning. First languages
are picked up by listening and associating words with objects. Second
languages involve, to a great degree, translations.)
> I have friends that have that ability in English and Greek or English and
> a rather rugged dialect of Italian spoken around Malfetta and they can
> carry on a conversation in both languages with no conscious effort.
Wir koennen ohne weiteres auf Deutsch weiterreden, dann fehlen mir aber
bald die Leser.
No, *that* is no problem, thinkin in language A or language B sometimes
within the same sentence, definitely within the same conversation - but
it still doesn't mean that I can find words in the other language for
anything I see written in the one. _Especially_ when your understanding
is instinctive, finding another set of words might be hard.
Some people have that skill, some haven't, and it's something that - the
Annas should be able to confirm that - needs to be honed and practiced.
I am not saying that I don't believe your character _could_ have that
skill - but I'd like you to work at making me *believe* he does.
It sounds like a very intersting concept, which means that it's all the
more important that it feels _right_.
Catja
Khiem Tran
"The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in message
news:4118d...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> Lol. I understood the Moi. Probably, in fact, I may had done so myself,
> but my knowledge of any foreign language is limited to a few common
> words and phrases, there is really very little use for anything but
English
> in this country unless you travel overseas.
Nitpick: knowing a language other than English might not be "necessary" in
Australia, but it _is_ useful.
> But I'd never have connected cop=rozzer in a million years....
Where in Australia are you (if you don't mind me asking)? I live in Sydney
and I'm pretty sure I've heard "rozzers" used (ironically) to mean "police".
Khiem.
(Learning Russian at the moment[1] - it's going slowly, but once I get past
zdrastvuitye, I reckon I'll be on a roll.. :) )
[1] yes, of COURSE, this is revelant to a bronze age fantasy set in southern
china, why do you ask?
Zeborah
> Hmm... I wonder if anyone ever studied such cases to see how accurate,
> fluent and idomatic the translations were. I'm not personally acquainted
> with anyone in a situation such as you describe. All cases I'm familiar
> with involve one bilingual parent and one monolingual one, with the
> children generally becoming either equally incompetent in both languages,
> or ending up as native speakers of the language shared by both parents but
> not of the bilingual parent's first language. There are, of course,
> exceptions, where the children do grow up fully bilingual, but they're
> rarer and usually involve a fair degree of effort on the part of the
> monolingual parent to become at least good enough at the other language to
> understand it if not actually speak it.
If one parent consistently speaks language X and the other consistently
speaks language Y, then their kids will wind up speaking both languages.
I gather the kids often take longer to start speaking, but that's quite
reasonably; they're trying to sort out two different communication
systems at once. But they'll do it. From what I understand.
Consistency is important, though.
A couple lovely anecdotes that I can't remember the source for:
One was a boy who grew up speaking I think three or four different
languages: "I just thought that this was the way Mother spoke, that was
the way Father spoke, another was the way Cook spoke..."
The other, about a girl whose parents had each spoken a different
language to her. When she was, I think four or five, her mother spoke
the "father's" language for some reason. The girl was shocked, "No,
mummy!" Her mother didn't realise how upset she was at first and teased
her, "Why? See, I can speak daddy's language too!" And the girl got
more and more upset, her entire worldview crumbling....
Zeborah
Brian M. Scott
<nguyen_k...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
<news:2nu2adF...@uni-berlin.de> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> (Learning Russian at the moment[1] - it's going slowly, but once I get past
> zdrastvuitye, I reckon I'll be on a roll.. :) )
It's been, erm, 36 years since I last did anything with
Russian, but I'm pretty sure that that should be
<zdra_v_stvuitye> (or as I'd transliterate, <zdravstvujte>).
[...]
Brian
Khiem Tran
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:e2wgsqmwldhb$.ag6o5ggpimlg.dlg@40tude.net...
And that roll is going to start any day now...
Brian M. Scott
<green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in
<news:1gibp6q.1drfg0z1o3mtlwN%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Geoff in Oz wrote:
[...]
>> I have friends that have that ability in English and Greek or English and
>> a rather rugged dialect of Italian spoken around Malfetta and they can
>> carry on a conversation in both languages with no conscious effort.
> Wir koennen ohne weiteres auf Deutsch weiterreden, dann fehlen mir aber
> bald die Leser.
In *this* group? Are you sure? <g>
> No, *that* is no problem, thinkin in language A or language B sometimes
> within the same sentence, definitely within the same conversation - but
> it still doesn't mean that I can find words in the other language for
> anything I see written in the one.
Amen. There have even been times when I was speaking
English and could only think of the German word, even though
(a) I read but don't comfortably speak German, and (b) there
was a perfectly familiar English synonym. The language
processor is *weird*. (Most recently <übertrieben>.)
[...]
Brian
Jonathan L Cunningham
>zeb...@gmail.com (Zeborah) wrote in
>
>> If such an organisation were to start up today, I'd expect it to use
>> English, not any kind of pidgin. A few hundred years ago in Europe,
>> maybe French. A few hundred years before that, certainly Latin. A
>> few hundred years in the future -- don't know, but I could believe any
>> of Japanese, Korean, Mandarin (preferably with an alphabet or
>> syllablary), Spanish, Hindu, Arabic....
>
>I think the kind of English used in India and Pakistan would be a good
>candidate.
They're good candidates, but I'm betting on Eurenglish -- the language
which will be spoken in Europe: mostly English but with a *lot* more
borrowings than it already has from other EU languages, and probably
new grammatical constructions. Could be as high as 20, 30 percent
borrowings by then, so that today's English speaker would have trouble
understanding the spoken language even without vowel shifts etc.
There are currently about 60 million speakers of English as a first
language here (give or take) but 90 million German speakers, 70
million French speakers, another 110 million speak
Spanish/Portuguese/Italian and then some minority languages 15 million
"Scandinavian" speakers (Danish/Norwegian/Swedish) maybe 20 million
speak Dutch (I've randomly split the Belgian between French and Dutch)
and we haven't even invad^H^H^H got as far as Poland yet :-).
English is not the *obvious* first choice for this half a billion
people, but with North America using it as a first language and the
Indian sub-continent (a billion people) using it as a lingua franca,
it's already become the de facto standard. Even the French learn
and use English (reluctantly :-).
(I haven't mentioned Australia and Kiwiland -- populations too small
to matter, although they'll contribute to the world-wide trend to
use English.)
So, even if the major economic and political centre of Europe has
shifted to, say, the Ukraine, they'll be speaking Eurenglish. But
with an initial seed of only 10% native English speakers, it could
be more different from American English and Indian English than
either are from each other. Or maybe the dialects will converge.
Of the other continents, Africa already has a lot of English
speakers -- I'd expect the French and Portuguese speaking nations
to switch over.
It may take a couple of hundred years before South America and
that bit in the middle switch - even longer if the southern USA
states switch temporarily to Spanish.
I reckon China will be the last to go -- may take a thousand
years or even more, before they adopt Eurenglish.
Of course, there may be pockets which hold out, and use Eurenglish
as a second language for a long time -- Arabic is a possibility
(because of the Koran) but I'm betting against it. It's difficult
to guess though: so much depends on geopolitics and economic
factors. Japanese? Maybe. Or it might die out suddenly over three
generations (a hundred years). Ditto many other major languages.
Jonathan
--
Use jlc1 at address, not spam.
Jonathan L Cunningham
(Catja Pafort) wrote:
>- tones and speed of speech seem to be social phenomena; some people
>speak slowly, whileothersrabbitonveryveryquickly, and their
>distribution seems to vary not only chorologically but also
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>chronologically - it can be interesting to watch 1930s footage of your
>own language, or simply observe regional differences
That's my new word for the day: I had to look it up :-). (This is
*not* a complaint.)
I shall now attempt to rewrite that phrase in words of one
syllable (this is a writing exercise for my own benefit).
... and where they are found seems to change not just by the
place that they are, but by the time when they speak as well ...
Hmmm. That's quite hard. I may allow myself two syllable words
next time :-).
Jonathan
(I wonder whether I could have one of my cast always speak
with very short words, and another character habitually generate
utterances polysyllabically?)
The CO
> "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in message
news:<4118d...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
> > "Brian Pickrell" <bobth...@brandx.net> wrote in message
> > news:eed75299.04080...@posting.google.com...
> > > "The CO" <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote
> > >
> Something to think about. Whether you're trying to establish a milieu
> or introduce a character or start a chain of events that gets the plot
> rolling or just tickle the reader's fancy, you're much more likely to
> succeed if you know what you *want* to accomplish than just shooting
> in the dark.
Well I know what I want to do I think, it's the how that is in question.
> I wouldn't rely on feedback too much for two reasons:
> 1) you'll get a lot of dumb feedback and you have to have some sort
> of basis for deciding which feedback to listen to;
Any bulk public crit will get you a mixed bag of clues. I'm mostly pleased
with
the input I've got from the group so far.
> 2) whether an
> opening "works" is such a complex and context-dependent question that
> by the time you can answer it, the story's practically done.
Mmmm, yes, if the opening doesn't work it can screw up the flow of the
story.
To some degree, that has happened here.
> Conventional wisdom around here has it that you must start off with a
> hook that will "grab" the reader (or a purchasing editor) in the first
> page or two, though that's certainly far from universal in literature.
> But it does make sense for a new novelist trying to make a first
> sale.
Yes I'm learning that.
> > I have an idea about how it could work better, basically it involves
telling
> > the story
> > from the beginning of the protags involvement instead of picking it up
after
> > one major
> > event has already occurred and bringing out the previous event in the
course
> > of the
> > conference...
>
> Would that accomplish your goals better?
Very likely, yes.
Geoff in Oz
The CO
> Offhand, I suspect there are class dialects;
No, not really. Educated and uneducated people do speak differently but
I hesitate to class that as a dialect, the lower end of the socio economic
spectrum
just tend to use less and shorter words and swear a lot more (usually).
> and immigrant dialects
> influenced by other languages.
Not sure what you mean. Immigrant languages have had zero effect on
Australian english.
No idea if their languages have has been affected by English. Not enough to
really have an
impact. The only place I can think of offhand where it might be hard to
get on without a
2nd language is limited to one part of Sydney that has become predominantly
Vietnamese.
Cabramatta has been unofficially known as Vietnamatta for years... Looks
more like Saigon
than Sydney in places..
> I'd be surprised if there weren't also
> some geographical differences. Perhaps
> the geographical differences are equivalent to the differences between
> Northern California
> and Southern California,
Never had an opportunity to compare.
> rather than (say) between Newfoundland English
> and Vancouver English.
Ditto. Most Aussies have difficulty separating Yanks and Canadians based
on their accent.
(And I've probably inadvertently insulted both by saying so)
If you want to know where in Oz someone is from you really have to ask them.
There are a couple of very minor word use 'isms' that have traditionally
been associated with
some parts of the country. Unfortunately they are not exclusive and seem
to be more a question
of what school you went to than any local 'dialect'. The degree of
difference only affects one or two
words at most and is of the 'tom ay to tom ar to' 'Castle or Carsle'
variety.
Accent is no different nationwide, or none that
I can detect anyway. New Zealand is an entirely different story.
The accent gets thicker the further south you go....
Geoff in OZ
The CO
"Khiem Tran" <nguyen_k...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:2nu2adF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
> Nitpick: knowing a language other than English might not be "necessary" in
> Australia, but it _is_ useful.
Not around here. I've only ever met one bloke that can't speaka da english
too gooda.
Mate of mine, Greek born market gardener called Con (Alphabet) or 'Con the
Greek'
as he is known. He babbles away and you sorta get the gist of what he wants
from every
second or third word. But it's just him. His grandkids tell me that he's
nearly as incomprehensible
in Greek as well.
> > But I'd never have connected cop=rozzer in a million years....
>
> Where in Australia are you (if you don't mind me asking)? I live in Sydney
> and I'm pretty sure I've heard "rozzers" used (ironically) to mean
"police".
Port Pirie, South Australia, about 100nm NNW of Adelaide.
> (Learning Russian at the moment[1] - it's going slowly, but once I get
past
> zdrastvuitye, I reckon I'll be on a roll.. :) )
Oddly enough it's a language I find fascinating. I've dabbled in it.
The complexity of its grammar is pretty mind boggling. I was just getting
my head around the concept of gender (in language) when I found out about
cases. The neuter nature of English is something of a relief.
One interesting side line, we tend to say 'she' when speaking of ships, one
of the relatively
few 'gendered' things in the language. Ship in Russian is masculine, so
they refer to ships as 'he'.
> [1] yes, of COURSE, this is revelant to a bronze age fantasy set in
southern
> china, why do you ask?
Did they speak Russian then?. The language of Iran (Farsi) has
Hindo-European roots,
not sure how widespread that was....
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"Tina Hall" <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org...
> > "Tina Hall" <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote
> >> The CO <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote:
>
> > Fair enough. However human nature is such that we always have
> > and in all probability always will be combative, competitive and
> > at times fight wars and kill.
>
> I don't understand competition, either. :)
Perhaps not, but that's not going to prevent you from having to do it,
or suffering as a result of it in others. Failure to understand water
will not prevent it drowning you.
> > You don't get to the top of the food chain unless you do.
> Hmmm... Considering my VUP (very ugly pet, the story I'm at the
> moment evading to work on), that's not necessarily the case. (The
> critters in that are more evasive, but there aren't many, so that's
> not a problem. Unless you count preying on the rest of nature as
> 'combative, competetive and warfaring'.
Yes certainly. Our combative nature (which evolution has sharpened to focus
on things
that are *different* in some way) comes from competing with nature (in the
form
of big furry things with teeth at least some of the time) for food and the
right to
live long enough to eat it.
It also means we probably competed with our predecessors. Why are their no
traces
of Neandertal in our mitochondrial DNA? They got wiped out when the
differences that
helped them survive the ice age became a liability when faced with their Cro
Magnon cousins.
> Among themselves, 'war',
> 'competition' or 'combat' doesn't even come to mind, and the rest of
> nature can't compete with or fight them.)
Not an impossible state. Failure to compete with other species on the road
to the top of the food chain will invariably lead to extinction. Some of
our warfare
is territorial, but increasingly it's ideological. We are competing with
those that think
and act differently and have different values. This tweaks the 'different -
kill' response
that several million years of evolution and natural selection has bred into
us. Like most
basic instincts, it's controllable, more in some individuals than others. I
doubt you lack
*any* combativeness. If you will fight for your life (or your virtue) if
attacked then you
are just controlling it, you still have the same genes that allowed our cave
dwelling ancestors
to compete with the likes of cave bears and other such unpleasantries.
Your alien race sounds a bit unusual, but not impossibly so.
> > So several million years of cumulative evolution are likely to
> > keep us at least somewhat that way inclined.
> I figured out the cause, but that doesn't mean I have to see the
> point in continuing the same way. :)
Because the moment you aren't prepared to fight for life or the life of your
children your genes get eliminated from the collective gene pool that is
passed
down the line. Nature is neither kind nor cruel, it's dispassionate and
controlled
aggression is a survival trait. Pacifisim is contra-survival. Wolf or
sheep, predator
or prey. Binary solution set. You can't have two bob each way. The mere
fact we
have had so much warfare tends to sharpen the selection process. In
general, the
smartest and the best warriors (not necessarily the bravest) tend to survive
the
war and get to breed. Not invariably true, but it does shrink the pool a
bit...
> Instead, I wonder whether this is necessary (given nature) to be the
> case with hypothetical real aliens, too. Or fictious aliens,
> considering the topic of this newsgroup.
We can invent a race of asexual warlike mushrooms or pacifist pussy cats.
Such is the power of fabulism. But making them *believable* ah, now that
is a completely different thing....
I agree that we 'humansise' far too much in our inventions at times. But if
they did
not have some 'humanistic' tendencies it would tend to trigger our own
genetically
controlled dislikes of 'different'. As another author through one of his
characters
remarked about a race of aliens known only through a statue they left
behind,
'Not human, but humane'....
> >> Let's stick to fiction. (Where I don't mind wars and Generals...)
>
> > <Nods> Anything to oblige a lady.
<looking around> What lady? Oh, I think I've seen one running off
> that way... <g>
;^)
> >> Maybe saying that he's nervous, rather than relying on the
> >> reader figuring it out from his behaviour, would help.
>
> > I was hoping that would get across without needing to be so
> > specific, but as you point out, that may not be sufficient...
>
> I might guess that he's nervous, but I don't like guessing or having
> to figure out what's going on. I prefer facts. :) I'm told that
> others like guessing...
Some do, some don't. I guess it depends. In a detective story it probably
makes sense
that the reader likes to try and guess 'whodunnit' or they wouldn't be
reading it. In this
sort of story it probably makes more sense to spell it out, it's just a
question of how and
how much at a time.
> >> :) That's a relief. Some people are very vocal and focused on
> >> what a story 'should' be like, with no room for alternate
> >> opinions.
>
> > I always listen to opinions. Especially from people who have
> > been there and done that. But we are all different and writing is
> > something of an individual pursuit, so some things will change
> > based on some of the advice, some will not.
>
> Neat.
I used to juggle aeroplanes for a living, it tends to make you focus on the
more important aspects of any given situation.
> I also have to think of a saying from my grandmother (I think) which
> went approximately: "Pleasing everyone is an art that no one can."
> (Trying to keep some kind of rhyme here. Um, now I can't properly
> recall the German saying anymore, it was there a moment ago. Anyway,
> I guess the meaning gets across.)
"You can fool some of the people all of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
For time read please. It still works.
> > However I also recall R.A.H. advising through one of his
> > characters that we should always listen to experts, they'll tell
> > you what can't be done and why, then you can do it.... :^)
> :) I like that.
"Lazarus Long" from 'Time Enough for Love' and some other related stories.
I don't know if you'd like Heinlen, though his novels are full of 'wisdom'
such
as that, his protagonists were survivors and wouldn't hesitate to kill to
ensure that.
> [...]
> >> That sounds as if the military is indeed just a part of the
> >> backround, necessary but not the focus for most of the time.
>
> > Essentially correct. He finds himself in the role of training
> > them to operate as a military *unit*, about which they have no
> > clue as all their combat is invariably one on one. Don't get me
> > wrong here, these aliens are at the top of *their* food chain and
> > didn't get there by diplomacy and good thoughts anymore than we
> > did,
>
> So with your aliens it's part of the nature, too.
Yes, they are fighters, as they'd have to be to get to their position on the
evolutionary
ladder. If they weren't they wouldn't be there. But they evolved from
semi-solitary
hunt/chase predators that initially socialised only to mate, but gradually
through a
combination of biology and evolution, formed extended family groups that are
somewhat
like a cross between a family with adopted children and a sort of group
marriage.
Makes for some very interesting dynamics....
> It sounds as if you've thought this all out well, to make a coherent
> society. Makes me all the more curious. :)
If you are going to create an alien society it has to be fairly 'alien' or
it will sound too
human to be believable. So to be convincing it has to be seen to be
functional at a
reasonable depth but still alien enough to make it worth telling the story
about.
> > but the concept of widespread warfare is as alien to them as
> > vegemite is to an American.
>
> What's vegemite?
A black spread made from yeast that is rich in vitamins and iron. If Oz has
a national food this
is one of the contenders. We literally raise our kids on it, on toast for
breakfast, on sandwiches
for lunch or anytime for a snack. Something of an acquired taste, if you
get hold of some, don't
spread it thick like jam (jelly?) if you aren't used to it, your eyes will
cross. A thin smear over
buttered bread will give you a chance to get used to the taste. Once you
do, it's pretty good, but
then I've had 40+ years of it....
> > [...] It doesn't get deeply into the nuts and bolts of their
> > training but mostly focusses on how that affects them and their
> > outlook.
>
> I think I'd like that. Characters, especially unusual ones, are more
> intersting than action scenes. :)
There are a couple of those too, but mostly it's about turning an enemy
nation into
a long term friend and nobbling the bad guys at the same time...
> >>> The characters I'm using very much have a clue. Even to the
> >>> point of picking the right man for the job despite age and rank
> >>> suggesting he's unsuitable.
> >>
> >> That's a refreshing change. :)
>
> > Well, it's supposed to be the future and we are supposed to
> > *advance*.
>
> Optimist. <g>
There are signs. 50 years ago no one cared that cities got firebombed as
part of
the attacks on the Reich during WW2. Hitting a civilian area *by accident*
these days
is a major catastrophe. It was a major catastrophe then too, but only for
those on the
receiving end. Does it mean we'll do away with war? Probably not, though I
think that
ethnic differences might (over a very long time) gradually start to fade out
through interbreeding,
so our descendants in 30,000 years might well be a fairly uniform light
brown instead of black,
white and everything in between. But hey, optimism is also a survival
trait...
> >>> The aliens are also not stupid, though they have a rather
> >>> complex and somewhat rigid culture that has a lot of formality
> >>> in it.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure whether I'd like that, but that's irrelevant. :)
>
> > The formality is not stifling, I'm probably not describing it
> > very well. They are very comfortable with it and it's one of the
> > reasons they have no real concept of warfare on a scale beyond
> > individual combat.
>
> Ah. That could be different, then. 'Stiff'(-ling) and restricting is
> indeed what I thought of.
No, it's not like that. Their ceremonials are designed to make it feel as
if
all present 'belong' and are welcome. In short, it's supportive and
comforting
rather than rigid and intimidating.
> Getting it across right seems difficult, though. Good luck with
> that. :)
Thanks, it's going to be non trivial that's for sure...
> [...]
> >> Sounds interesting, and I'd like to find out whether it'll work
> >> the way you intend. (I often end up cheering the bad guys
> >> because there are no likable good guys...)
>
> > You won't like these bad guys. Trust me. Think of them as Al
> > Quaeda with no religion.
>
> Do you have a fictious example instead?
ok, think of them as a reptilian version of the worst aspects of Attila's
Huns
and Genghis' Mongol hordes, with a streak of serious sadism.
Other races exist only to be conquered or to serve in some way.
They don't take prisoners except to execute them.
> (I just don't understand these guys, and disagree with some of the
> reactions to them, and am basically not very well informed due to
> news being biased, and not very interested since I don't understand
> any of it and am uninterested in finding explanations. I don't want
> to think of these guys, or discuss them, and refuse to just go with
> the cliche picture.)
Fair enough. Not here to start an argument. But remember the
water parable earlier.
> Re: Bilingual. I only know 1 language, that's .5 English and .5
> German (with English, written is just far easier than spoken because
> I have no practice in speaking English).
Someone once mentioned to me that English is almost two languages, the
one you speak and the one you write. I didn't notice it myself, but there
is some truth in it I think.
> I don't have to translate any of this stuff here to read/write it, I
read/write it as it is.
Ok.
> Same as if I'd do it in German. Translating it from one to the other
> is very difficult, though, especially when an English phrase or word
> pops into my mind in a German conversation; most of the time I'll
> simply not be able to express it in German because at that moment I
> don't know how to translate it. (English stuff often pops into my
> mind because I read and write much more English than I talk, or even
> read or write, in German.)
Makes sense. Hard for me to picture the process, English isn't just
prevalent
here, but pretty much dominant.
> I can switch from one to the other, or rather, I just go with what
> I'm presented; one time I sent a (German) aquaintance some English
> text in an email, and then accidentally continued to write in
> English before I caught on, and reverted back to German. Switching
> isn't a problem because it doesn't involve translation.
Ok this sounds like what I had in mind.
> Could be that your protagonist has a knack for languages, though
Yes, he learned both languages almost from birth and also began translating
very
early, which sharpened his skills at that, and perhaps he had some natural
inclination.
> (which I haven't got at all). Some people are good at instant
> translations. (Like those that translate the stuff English celebrity
> guests say in life shows here on TV. They translate what they heard
> while they listen to the next bit.)
Yes, some are better at it than others that's for sure.
> Re: The entire alien race speaking one language with no dialects.
> Where's the problem? They're aliens, not humans in rubber suits,
> right? :)
Precisely. The society they have and the complexity of the language
itself, tend to make
shifts both gradual and very much an all or nothing scenario.
I see the point of others that have a bit of an issue with this, but I don't
think
it's an unbelievable circumstance. Just not a *human* one....
Geoff in Oz
The CO
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:10:04 +0930, The CO
> <as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> wrote in
> <news:4118e...@news.iprimus.com.au> in
> rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> > "Phil" <tls_...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:1fg0eop7ebd7o.2idevbvpp32s$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > prevented it being shifted or manipulated much as it
> > would create major problems. Small changes in complex
> > functioning systems can be fatal to the system. I've
> > taken the position that the very complexity of the
> > language makes it very difficult to make changes.
>
> I don't really find this credible, I'm afraid. To begin
> with, no one has yet come up with any way of defining (let
> alone measuring) linguistic complexity.
Oh? I find that surprising. I thought French was hard, then I had
a look at German then I came across Russian. I'm told that Russian
is considered one of the more difficult languages to learn as are some
of the pitched asian languages.
> On top of that,
> their extended family groups look like an ideal breeding
> ground for linguistic diversity. You can say, as you did to
> Zeborah, that this is anthropomorphizing, but the fact is
> that all we have to go on is human language plus whatever we
> know about communication within other terrestrial species,
> and that says that languages always change and diversify.
I'm not saying they can't change, just that it happens very slowly
and that it tends to be in a controlled manner. The language is so
complex that any family group that make unilateral changes would
find themselves literally with no one to talk to. So they tend to
avoid that scenario.
> You can persuade me that change for your aliens is on
> average much slower than it is on average for us, but I
> don't think that you can persuade me that it doesn't occur
> at a rate noticeable to their society.
Probably not, but the rate is subjective. The protag has mostly
kept up with it regardless. In the few years since he left his parents
it wouldn't have shifted much in the society I envisage.
> Also, how did this language come about in the first place?
> Was it created, à la Esperanto, or did it evolve normally?
Haven't decided yet. I'd have said complex languages imply
creation, but given the complexity of some human languages I'd
say it can happen though evolution as well.
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
The CO
"Catja Pafort" <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:1gibm81.yrqdzg1mt5sqkN%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid...
(no I'm not a teacher).
I sometimes wonder why. At my school they teach Indonesian which probably
makes at least some sense, though it would make a lot more if you lived in
Darwin.
I envy your ability to drive to another country and culture. We simply
can't do that.
At primary school level, each school picks a language to work with.
My childrens school teaches French. No idea why, there are no native
French speakers to speak it to here. Another does German, and there
are about 5 or 6 Germans here that might like that, but it has no practical
use unless you go overseas. Oz is not only a country but a continent, so we
don't have to deal with other languages at home that much unless you are
the govt and they cater to immigrants that don't speak english yet.
The last lot of immigrants to this area were in the 60's and were virtually
all from the UK, England mostly. Prior to that there were some Greeks
and Italians, but their descendants are Aussies and speak English...
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
Julia Jones
<as...@somewhere.in.oz.au> writes
>At primary school level, each school picks a language to work with.
>My childrens school teaches French. No idea why, there are no native
>French speakers to speak it to here. Another does German, and there
>are about 5 or 6 Germans here that might like that, but it has no practical
>use unless you go overseas.
I'd just like to point out that not all Australians are this insular...
A fair number of my classmates had every intention of using French on
holidays in the Pacific, quite a few more expected to visit Europe,
often on the working holiday visa that allows young Asutralians to spend
a year working their way around the UK.
--
Julia Jones
"We are English of Borg. Your language will be assimilated."
Dan Goodman
> Everything on this planet whose language we have halfway deciphered,
> including bees, has dialects; so it's a good guess that a social animal,
> however alien it might be, will use language _creatively_ .
One possible exception: the standard language is hardwired into the brain,
so it doesn't require learning.
But I suspect this requires a previous intelligent species which gene-
engineered this. And the previous species would complicate the background.
Dan Goodman
> <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in
>
>> Geoff in Oz wrote:
>
>>> I have friends that have that ability in English and Greek or
>>> English and a rather rugged dialect of Italian spoken around
>>> Malfetta and they can carry on a conversation in both languages with
>>> no conscious effort.
>
>> Wir koennen ohne weiteres auf Deutsch weiterreden, dann fehlen mir
>> aber bald die Leser.
>
> In *this* group? Are you sure? <g>
>
>> No, *that* is no problem, thinkin in language A or language B
>> sometimes within the same sentence, definitely within the same
>> conversation - but it still doesn't mean that I can find words in the
>> other language for anything I see written in the one.
>
> Amen. There have even been times when I was speaking
> English and could only think of the German word, even though
> (a) I read but don't comfortably speak German, and (b) there
> was a perfectly familiar English synonym. The language
> processor is *weird*. (Most recently <übertrieben>.)
My mother was bothered that there was a kitchen implement she only knew
by its Yiddish name: hackmesser.
Turns out that in English, the name is mezzaluna....
Sometimes there isn't a familiar English synonym.
Dan Goodman
> One interesting side line, we tend to say 'she' when speaking of
> ships, one of the relatively
> few 'gendered' things in the language. Ship in Russian is masculine,
> so they refer to ships as 'he'.
In the kind of English I grew up with, cars and tractors are also feminine.
Note: I understand that standard Italian and Sicilian often disagree on
what gender something is.
Dan Goodman
> It may take a couple of hundred years before South America and
> that bit in the middle switch - even longer if the southern USA
> states switch temporarily to Spanish.
Not likely -- too many of the Spanish-speaking immigrants go to somewhere
in the North.
One brand of tortillas (and other hispanic foods) common in the Twin Cities
is made in Oregon.
Dan Goodman
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@visi.com> wrote in message
>
>> Offhand, I suspect there are class dialects;
>
> No, not really. Educated and uneducated people do speak differently
> but I hesitate to class that as a dialect, the lower end of the socio
> economic spectrum just tend to use less and shorter words and swear a
> lot more (usually).
>
>> and immigrant dialects influenced by other languages.
>
> Not sure what you mean. Immigrant languages have had zero effect on
> Australian english.
Gaelic has had some effect: "youse" (also found in New York City) is an
English equivalent of something which is properly grammatical in Gaelic.
> Ditto. Most Aussies have difficulty separating Yanks and Canadians
> based on their accent. (And I've probably inadvertently insulted both
> by saying so)
Both countries have a wide range of accents.
I find it difficult to distinguish Australians from London-area Brits
based on how they speak.
And I can't separate New Zealanders speaking to non-New Zealanders from
Australians. However, two New Zealanders talking to each other....
> If you want to know where in Oz someone is from you really have to ask
> them.
Maybe. Some Americans can tell where, for example, within New York City
someone is from. I'd be surprised if there aren't Australians who can
tell such differences at least within the entire country.
And it's extremely likely that rural people use words which most
Australians wouldn't understand.
David Friedman
sp...@softluck.plus.com (Jonathan L Cunningham) wrote:
> I reckon China will be the last to go -- may take a thousand
> years or even more, before they adopt Eurenglish.
>
I'm struck by the implicit conservatism of this sentence. Do you think
that, a thousand years from now, a polity called "China" will exist with
more or less its current borders? That a thousand years from now, we
won't have translation computers good enough to make a common language
unnecessary, or ways of augmenting humans good enough to make twenty
languages as easy as one?
David Friedman
green...@cix.co.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote:
> - lack of centralisation. If language does never change, it means that
> someone needs to watch over it, and that someone needs to have
> authority.
>
While I agree with the general point you are making, it seems to me that
this particular bit raises an interesting challenge for an sf writer.
Can one devise some social mechanism other than central authority that
would freeze language?
There are, after all, some decentralized mechanisms that yield a
substantial degree of uniformity. The temperature in the room I am
sitting in doesn't vary much from place to place, not because of central
coordination but because of the mathematics of heat transfer. The price
of a homogeneous good such as wheat doesn't vary much from place to
place over a much larger area, because of decentralized market
mechanisms.
Can one think up something analogous for language--some decentralized
mechanism that generates a standard dialect and makes it in people's
interest to stick to it?
Catja Pafort
> > His parents are both highly intelligent and well educated and have some
> > skill with languages though they are anthropologists not linguists. He
> > finds himself in the role of translator when his command of the language
> > exceeds theirs, which happens at a fairly young age.
>
> Fair enough, for the most part. I'd like to note, though, that given what
> you've presented so far, it should be possible, if difficult, for an adult
> to acquire full command of the alien language, provided the adult in
> question lived immersively in the alien culture for a long time and made a
> serious commitment to learning the language. This probably isn't something
> that would matter to the story, but I think you'd want to avoid a
> categorical, 100% objective "it's impossible for adults to fully learn"
> rule rather than having such a comment simply be the opinion of one or more
> characters.
I'd go for slimy bug syndrome - most adult humans don't *want* to learn
the strange whistlings and clickings of those icky aliens. (Who says
that 'language' must equal 'words'?
If your aliens are squirrels, then you're stuffed, of course. You
couldn't learn their language by immersion any more than you can learn
it by intensive study - humans just don't *do* ultrasound.
Catja
Zeborah
[candidates for standard language of a future global organisation]
> They're good candidates, but I'm betting on Eurenglish -- the language
> which will be spoken in Europe:
Asian-English might work, too; which is English, with not too many
borrowings, but weird-ified. Even when a sentence is grammatically
correct, it's not what a normal English speaker would say....
> Of the other continents, Africa already has a lot of English
> speakers -- I'd expect the French and Portuguese speaking nations
> to switch over.
>
> It may take a couple of hundred years before South America and
> that bit in the middle switch - even longer if the southern USA
> states switch temporarily to Spanish.
>
> I reckon China will be the last to go -- may take a thousand
> years or even more, before they adopt Eurenglish.
>
> Of course, there may be pockets which hold out, and use Eurenglish
> as a second language for a long time
Er... I was talking about Language X as a second language, or trade
language; I would not expect any language at all ever to become a global
first language.
Zeborah