Hidden Language of Paintings?
Catja Pafort
things up, but I hope that someone here can point me to an appropriate
reference:
I need a book that explains - with plenty of examples - the iconography
used in paintings. I can't just make one up (if a dog eats a bone under
the table it means the house is wealthy) - but I do need a reference
book so I can do some research.
Yet another idea. Grr. Having ideas is the easiest bit. Finding time to
write them up, and *edit* them...
Catja
Geoff Wedig
> I've forgotten in which thread there was discussion of artists reading
> things up, but I hope that someone here can point me to an appropriate
> reference:
> I need a book that explains - with plenty of examples - the iconography
> used in paintings. I can't just make one up (if a dog eats a bone under
> the table it means the house is wealthy) - but I do need a reference
> book so I can do some research.
this varies a lot by culture and time period in question. Care to narrow it
down a bit? Or do you just need *any* iconography?
Geoff
Dan Goodman
news:1fc4j7t.yfgi5g9k2f5pN%green...@cix.co.uk:
> I've forgotten in which thread there was discussion of artists reading
> things up, but I hope that someone here can point me to an appropriate
> reference:
>
> I need a book that explains - with plenty of examples - the iconography
> used in paintings.
You seem to be assuming there's only one such system, and there are no
variants of that system. I consider that unlikely.
Joann Zimmerman
green...@cix.co.uk says...
> I've forgotten in which thread there was discussion of artists reading
> things up, but I hope that someone here can point me to an appropriate
> reference:
>
> I need a book that explains - with plenty of examples - the iconography
> used in paintings. I can't just make one up (if a dog eats a bone under
> the table it means the house is wealthy) - but I do need a reference
> book so I can do some research.
James Hall. _Dictionary of Subjects and Symbols in Art_. (Harper &
Row/Icon, US printing, may be available in UK)
Pretty good on mythology and religion, and items of significance to
either. Because of the way it's organized, you may need to skim the whole
thing to find the sort of thing you're looking for.
If you're doing medieval art, specifically religious, consult Emile Male.
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
Suzanne Palmer
> I need a book that explains - with plenty of examples - the iconography
> used in paintings. I can't just make one up (if a dog eats a bone under
> the table it means the house is wealthy) - but I do need a reference
> book so I can do some research.
There's a web site with some links here:
http://library.gmu.edu/resources/fa/symbolism.html
I have several excellent books (had to take too many art history courses
in college), but they are 75 miles away from me. I will be able to get
them this coming weekend and send you titles and/or look anything up, if
that's not too late for your purposes. Let me know if you're interested.
-Suzanne
Catja Pafort
> > I need a book that explains - with plenty of examples - the iconography
> > used in paintings.
>
> You seem to be assuming there's only one such system, and there are no
> variants of that system. I consider that unlikely.
I've got a very vague idea floating around. I know that there are more
things in paintings than a lay person (me) sees - and I know that they
follow certain rules.
I feel an inexplicable desire to read up on the subject. Given the
length of the queue - parts two and three of the Trilogy in Progress,
the previous attack novel, severe edit of The Book, writing the two ones
that follow it, and about five or six other projects that are planned
and which have been hanging around for a lot longer, this one might not
ever be written. As I said, it's a *very* vague idea.
I want to know how iconographies work. Whatever I decide to use in the
end, should be firmly rooted in an existing system, and right now I
wants BOOKS.
I'm most familiar (= hardly at all) with the medieval/renaissance one
used by European painters. I've got no idea whether there are Chinese,
Indian, etc ones; and if they are, I don't know whether they'd translate
back into reality in the manner I'm vaguely imagining.
Catja
Irina Rempt
> Given the
> length of the queue - parts two and three of the Trilogy in Progress,
> the previous attack novel, severe edit of The Book, writing the two
> ones that follow it, and about five or six other projects that are
> planned and which have been hanging around for a lot longer, this one
> might not ever be written.
Let me take this out of context to boggle at it.
I have one thing I'm writing, one thing I want to write when the present
thing is finished, a few stories in Dutch that I may want to rewrite in
English, and a very vague idea for a mystery novel set in an Orthodox
church.
I'd never write anything at all if I had so much going at the same time.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
Dan Goodman
> Dan wrote:
>
>> > I need a book that explains - with plenty of examples - the
>> > iconography used in paintings.
>>
>> You seem to be assuming there's only one such system, and there are
>> no variants of that system. I consider that unlikely.
>
> I've got a very vague idea floating around. I know that there are more
> things in paintings than a lay person (me) sees - and I know that they
> follow certain rules.
No, they don't. _Some_ of them do -- with quite different rules in
different times and place.
Catja Pafort
> On Tuesday 14 May 2002 10:41 Catja Pafort wrote:
>
> > Given the
> > length of the queue - parts two and three of the Trilogy in Progress,
> > the previous attack novel, severe edit of The Book, writing the two
> > ones that follow it, and about five or six other projects that are
> > planned and which have been hanging around for a lot longer, this one
> > might not ever be written.
>
> Let me take this out of context to boggle at it.
Feel free to boggle all you like. Beats working. ;-)
> I have one thing I'm writing, one thing I want to write when the present
> thing is finished, a few stories in Dutch that I may want to rewrite in
> English, and a very vague idea for a mystery novel set in an Orthodox
> church.
>
> I'd never write anything at all if I had so much going at the same time.
I've got to make priorities. One reason I was so angry that the (then)
current attack novel wanted to be a trilogy was that it meant I could't
go back to old stuff, but had to write another new book. The Book
(Beyond the Ruins of Elechan) is in, well, zero draft format and needs
time to work it over. The previous attack novel (help, I forgot the
sequence for that) is the one I want to go back to after finishing this
darn trilogy (which will then need extensive editing).
All the rest are things I started and never got anywhere with. After
everything I've learnt on rasfc I can now see why some of those things
will never make a good story; others might turn into short stories or
better yet, novellas. Some might, eventually, get worked on. Apart from
The Book and the world it's set in (I have a couple more ideas that will
hang around on that world) I have what is called the 'Ravellon
Chronicles' - a series of books set on a fantastic world (no magic).
They're all independent, but they provide background for each other. One
character has fought in a war that happens in another book; another book
deals with the emperor of an empire that is involved in that war at a
different time; they're allied with a group of pirates that _another_
character has to fight in another book, and so on.
I'm good at having ideas and starting things. I'm lousy at keeping th e
plot arc and finishing.
(Who was it that was going to sell of their spare beginnings? Can we
hold a raffle?)
Catja
Irina Rempt
> (Who was it that was going to sell of their spare beginnings? Can we
> hold a raffle?)
Ooh, can I contribute my spare middles?
Catja Pafort
> > I've got a very vague idea floating around. I know that there are more
> > things in paintings than a lay person (me) sees - and I know that they
> > follow certain rules.
>
> No, they don't. _Some_ of them do -- with quite different rules in
> different times and place.
Look, if you know so much about the topic, why don't you write about it
instead of making cryptic remarks?
If there are no 'rules' - no consensus on what certain things mean, then
they are not hidden messages, they're merely objects painters put in to
round off a picture. If there *are* rules, in other words a consensus on
what things do, or don't mean, that those in the know can read, and lay
people don't, then you *do* have a secret language. I know that this is
the case, and you say so as well.
So, what about a reference or two instead of taunting me that I don't
know anything about the subject (which I have freely admitted)?
Catja
Catja Pafort
> > (Who was it that was going to sell of their spare beginnings? Can we
> > hold a raffle?)
>
> Ooh, can I contribute my spare middles?
Of course. There must be somone out there with a box of endings, too -
then all we have to do is allocate them by lottery, and we should have a
series of bestsellers in next to no time...
Catja
Brian D. Fernald
news:1fc7uua.1vdyuzu29qg74N%green...@cix.co.uk...
> Dan wrote:
>
> > > I've got a very vague idea floating around. I know that there are more
> > > things in paintings than a lay person (me) sees - and I know that they
> > > follow certain rules.
> >
> > No, they don't. _Some_ of them do -- with quite different rules in
> > different times and place.
>
> Look, if you know so much about the topic, why don't you write about it
> instead of making cryptic remarks?
>
> If there are no 'rules' - no consensus on what certain things mean, then
> they are not hidden messages, they're merely objects painters put in to
> round off a picture. If there *are* rules, in other words a consensus on
> what things do, or don't mean, that those in the know can read, and lay
> people don't, then you *do* have a secret language. I know that this is
> the case, and you say so as well.
>
In some cases the rules are fairly hard and fast. Largely, this is because
the rules were developed after the fact of the painting's composition.
Other times the painter made a conscious effort to met the rules which
can be found in some medievel and renaissance.
> So, what about a reference or two instead of taunting me that I don't
> know anything about the subject (which I have freely admitted)?
>
Someone has already mentioned my favorite reference,
Hall's Dictionary of Subjects and Symbols in Art. I would also add
Zolar's _Encyclopedia of Signs, Omens, and Superstitions_ and
Cirlot's _A Dictionary of Symbols_. The later books tend to a more
occultic/metaphysical interpretation, but they also provide a wider
perspective on use of symbols relating them to the external
non-art world.
Taschen also has a boook called 'Alchemy and Mysticism: The
Hermetic Museum' that has many examples that conform to
fairly strict symbology rules.
This is an expensive book for what it offers, so I would see if you
can find it in a library or browse it at a bookstore if it interests
you.
Finally, I would also suggest checking out the various collections
of essay's by John Berger. Typically in the art section of bookstores.
Berger's essays offer a very enlightening perspective on looking
at art. He also can provide some background on how to relate
the ideas of symbology to the composition as a hole.
--
Brian.
FSOBN
Heather Jones
> Someone has already mentioned my favorite reference,
> Hall's Dictionary of Subjects and Symbols in Art. I would also add
> Zolar's _Encyclopedia of Signs, Omens, and Superstitions_ and
> Cirlot's _A Dictionary of Symbols_. The later books tend to a more
> occultic/metaphysical interpretation, but they also provide a wider
> perspective on use of symbols relating them to the external
> non-art world.
There's also the problem of distinguishing between symbols that the
painters put in very deliberately and self-consciously (to the extent
that we can know this), and symbols that have been interpreted as such
by later art historians (which may or may not have be deliberately and
consciously used as such by the artist). In this latter category I'm
thinking of things like "a dog in a betrothal painting is a symbol of
fidelity". Well, maybe it was, and maybe the couple had a favorite dog
that they wanted included in the painting.
But in the "deliberate and conscious" category, one fascinating resource
are historic painters' manuals that detail, for example, what attributes
particular iconic individuals should have. The ones I'm familiar with
focus on religious art, for example:
Hetherington, Paul. 1974. Painter's Manual of Dionysius of Fourna.
Oakwood Publications, Redondo Beach. ISBN 0-9503163-0-X
This is a 17th century Greek manual for icon painters. Here, rather
than focusing on what particular details symbolize in isolation, it
focuses on what symbolic details to use to identify an individual (e.g.,
""St. Andrew, dragged by soldiers and his foot cut off with the blade of
a pick-axe, he is an old man with a long beard" -- so if you see a
picture of an old man with a long beard being dragged off footless by
soldiers with a pickaxe, you know by these symbols that it must be St. Andrew).
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
Dan Goodman
> Dan wrote:
>
>> > I've got a very vague idea floating around. I know that there are more
>> > things in paintings than a lay person (me) sees - and I know that they
>> > follow certain rules.
>>
>> No, they don't. _Some_ of them do -- with quite different rules in
>> different times and place.
>
> Look, if you know so much about the topic, why don't you write about it
> instead of making cryptic remarks?
Very, very, very simple -- I know just enough to know that the rules (when
and where there _are_ rules) vary as wildly as any other cultural feature.
What is the legal age of marriage in North America? I don't know the
relevant laws for every US state, Mexican state, and Canadian province.
But I do know enough to be certain that it varies.
> If there are no 'rules' - no consensus on what certain things mean, then
> they are not hidden messages, they're merely objects painters put in to
> round off a picture.
Depends on the painter. Some may include as many hidden messages as James
Joyce included in _Finnegans Wake_. (For example, the absence of an
apostrophe in "Finnegans" is meaningful.) Joyce was using his own private
set of rules; if readers weren't willing to put in twenty or so years
figuring out those rules, then too bad for those lazy readers.
If there *are* rules,
This week, there is no agreed-upon set of rules. There are almost certainly
painters, and schools of painting, with sets of rules.
During the period from about 1500 to about 1800, there were sets of rules -
- similar to the set of rules for drama which any competent playwright had
to follow, and which William Shakespeare didn't follow. Or the set of rules
for epic poetry which Homer was foolish enough not to always follow.
However, these rules were refined and sometimes replaced entirely.
in other words a consensus on
> what things do, or don't mean, that those in the know can read, and lay
> people don't, then you *do* have a secret language.
No. You have secret languages. Plural.
> So, what about a reference or two instead of taunting me that I don't
> know anything about the subject (which I have freely admitted)?
No. I've been trying to explain that _there is not ONE such secret
language_, not even in the set of cultures which began in Charlemagne's
empire (plus parts of the British Isles and some parts of Italy not among
his possessions), and is now usually called "the West".
Start with Jacques Barzun, _Classic, Romantic, and Modern_.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Because we don't know what time or place you're talking about.
What you want is iconography. 9th-century Byzantine iconography is
nothing like 17th-century Flemish iconography, let alone 17th-century
Japanese iconography.
If I see a bull in a Byzantine triptych, I know it represents one of
the four Evangelists, though right now I forget which one; if I see a
bull in a 16th-century Italian genre painting, I assume it's a
reference to the myth of Europa. It's all context-dependent.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 4/15/02
My latest novel is THE DRAGON SOCIETY, published by Tor.