Nighty-night, characters
Catja Pafort
just coincidence, but a nasty habit.
A lot of scenelets, scens and chapters end with Rhailed going to bed and
begin with my protag getting up.
I suppose what it does it give me a sense of closure; but it's getting
to be beyond a joke, and I'll have to eliminate a few, otherwise the
reader will think it's a novel about an anti-insomniac - sleeps
anywhere, any time, and usually longer than expected.
Case in point:
A difficult character is in the process of being won over by gumption
and decent behaviour and by Rhailed demonstrating that he _cares_. He's
asked for additional information that will help him accept that the
cousin he adores is one of the Bad Guys; he's just gotten that
information (in a paraphrased conversation); now he's going to bed to
think.
The next morning, he'll get up, sit in Rhailed's garden (a wizard's
garden, remember?) and step on the path towards acceptance. Which is
important because his discontinued hostily allows Rha and Rhani to have
another climatic scene where they deal, once and forever, with *her*.
[Then the king dies, I wrap up a couple of threads with a letter, and
I'll be at the end.]
In many cases, night ends one scene and the morning begins the next; but
I guess the problem is twofold:
One, nighttime gives me a sense of closure and I find it difficult to,
if I've written Another Day in the Life of Rhailed, to _skip_ 'he slept,
he awoke, the next day brought-'.
Two, I have a hard time finding transitions, and the sleeping/getting up
in a different mood seems to be an easy scene-reset switch that I make
use of frequently.
Help, please.
Catja
Dorothy J Heydt
Catja Pafort <green...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>I have long suspected, and re-reading has confirmed, that I have not
>just coincidence, but a nasty habit.
>
>A lot of scenelets, scens and chapters end with Rhailed going to bed and
>begin with my protag getting up.
>
>I suppose what it does it give me a sense of closure; but it's getting
>to be beyond a joke, and I'll have to eliminate a few, otherwise the
>reader will think it's a novel about an anti-insomniac - sleeps
>anywhere, any time, and usually longer than expected.
You could make her a narcoleptic, like tnh. *Lots* of
difficulties for a strong character to struggle against.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Nicola Browne
news:1ge71zl.3mnrc5mzxosnN%green...@cix.co.uk
> Help, please.
>
I'm almost certain we've talked about this before but I can't
remember the thread.
My first though was that perhaps you might be including too much detail
if you are following the character's every movement - unless the
story occurs over a short time scale and every moment matters.
Perhaps it's a focus problem if you're too closely tracking
every moment of your character you could pull back a bit
if POV issues permit. Imagine it's a film and cut the scene
at the beginning or the end of the point of maximum interest.
Maybe you could summarise what occurs in each chapter - cut any
padding ( any stuff that doesn't fulfil several functions or convey
unique information or in some way makes a difference)
and rejig the scene breaks thereby forcing a different kind of
transition between scenes?
Maybe don't specify time of day so much -
if it isn't important, avoid time as a linkage - so say rather than
'The next morning' ' When X next saw him'
or just jump into a scene in the middle of a conversation, or a fight
or whatever.
Is it all from one point of view? If not you could intersect another
viewpoint at times when the main thread is unresolved to break up any
undesirably repetitive rhythms, or just end the scene with the
resolution of something - a conversation, a decision and don't anchor
that so tightly to a particular time and place eg:
That was it then; he had made his decision. (end scene)
(new scene)Putting his decision into effect was not as easy as he'd
hoped. What with the headless corpse turning up in the chapel and the
ghost of Sir Alex haunting the cloisters to magnificient effect, it was
not until the uproar had died down, and he saw Daphne in the garden a
couple of days later, that he had his first opportunity to act.
Apologies if this is useless.
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Elizabeth Shack
(Catja Pafort) wrote:
> One, nighttime gives me a sense of closure and I find it difficult to,
> if I've written Another Day in the Life of Rhailed, to _skip_ 'he slept,
> he awoke, the next day brought-'.
>
> Two, I have a hard time finding transitions, and the sleeping/getting up
> in a different mood seems to be an easy scene-reset switch that I make
> use of frequently.
>
> Help, please.
Chop off the last couple / first few paragraphs of each scene. (I've given
up on decent transitions.)
--
Elizabeth Shack eashack at earthlink dot ent
Writing updates at http://www.livejournal.com/users/eashack/
R. L.
wrote:
>I have long suspected, and re-reading has confirmed, that I have not
>just coincidence, but a nasty habit.
>
>A lot of scenelets, scens and chapters end with Rhailed going to bed and
>begin with my protag getting up.
Are you sure this is a problem rather than a feature? Has anyone
complained?
>I suppose what it does it give me a sense of closure; but it's getting
>to be beyond a joke, and I'll have to eliminate a few, otherwise the
>reader will think it's a novel about an anti-insomniac - sleeps
>anywhere, any time, and usually longer than expected.
If you're talking about your wizard here, could some of the daytime
closure/clear/reset breaks be him sitting down to meditate for a while?
>Case in point:
>
>A difficult character is in the process of being won over by gumption
>and decent behaviour and by Rhailed demonstrating that he _cares_. He's
>asked for additional information that will help him accept that the
>cousin he adores is one of the Bad Guys; he's just gotten that
>information (in a paraphrased conversation); now he's going to bed to
>think.
>The next morning, he'll get up, sit in Rhailed's garden (a wizard's
>garden, remember?) and step on the path towards acceptance.
This sounds realistic. To 'sleep on it' often helps change an attitude,
get a fresh view.
/snip/
>In many cases, night ends one scene and the morning begins the next; but
>I guess the problem is twofold:
>
>One, nighttime gives me a sense of closure
Yes, and a rhythm thing for the reader also.
>and I find it difficult to,
>if I've written Another Day in the Life of Rhailed, to _skip_ 'he slept,
>he awoke, the next day brought-'.
Well, I suppose you indicate how each night differs from other nights?
Maybe mention what he dreams, as hint of things to come, or of what is
on his mind that didn't reach the daytime scenes? A wizard's dreams
could well have trace amounts of shamanism. :-)
>Two, I have a hard time finding transitions, and the sleeping/getting up
>in a different mood seems to be an easy scene-reset switch that I make
>use of frequently.
Are you sure this is a problem rather than a feature? Maybe that's the
kind of clear/reset switch this book needs. I tend to drop complicated
books that don't have plenty very obvious clear/resets; my stack gets
overloaded.
It might be functioning as a sort of virtual 'Sequel'. Like a signal to
the reader: "Insert likely 'Sequel' here." :-)
R.L.
--------
Tim S
> I have long suspected, and re-reading has confirmed, that I have not
> just coincidence, but a nasty habit.
>
> A lot of scenelets, scens and chapters end with Rhailed going to bed and
> begin with my protag getting up.
>
<snip>
> In many cases, night ends one scene and the morning begins the next; but
> I guess the problem is twofold:
>
> One, nighttime gives me a sense of closure and I find it difficult to,
> if I've written Another Day in the Life of Rhailed, to _skip_ 'he slept,
> he awoke, the next day brought-'.
Why are so many episodes in the form of Another Day in the Life of Rhailed?
>
> Two, I have a hard time finding transitions, and the sleeping/getting up
> in a different mood seems to be an easy scene-reset switch that I make
> use of frequently.
I think this may be a natural consequence of the first problem.
Tim
Mary Gentle
nicky.m...@btinternet.com (Nicola Browne) wrote:
[...]
> Putting his decision into effect was not as easy as he'd
> hoped. What with the headless corpse turning up in the chapel and the
> ghost of Sir Alex haunting the cloisters to magnificient effect, it was
> not until the uproar had died down, and he saw Daphne in the garden a
> couple of days later, that he had his first opportunity to act.
<plaintive> There's _another_ damn beginning I want to read the end (and
middle) of... </plaintive>
Rasfc is getting very frustrating these days. :)
Mary
Most recently published:
1610: A SUNDIAL IN A GRAVE, novel, Orion UK, hc & tpb
CARTOMANCY, short story collection, Orion UK, pb
Mary Gentle
green...@cix.co.uk (Catja Pafort) wrote:
> I have long suspected, and re-reading has confirmed, that I have not
> just coincidence, but a nasty habit.
I have plenty of nasty habits, and I treasure 'em all, but moving right
along... :-)
> A lot of scenelets, scens and chapters end with Rhailed going to bed and
> begin with my protag getting up.
Anything you do a lot of has a chance of being a nervous tic. Then again,
it's also possible for it to be functional.
It could be a theme. Or do I mean a necessary function of pacing
contingent on theme? Anyhow, what's the general speed-of-read in the book
as a whole -- is it a rapid journey by sports car, with skidding handbrake
turns, or is it a journey on foot, over rolling hills?
I can see the bed/rise thing being quite reasonable for a 'walking pace'
narrative. OTOH, it _is_ one of those things I've read way too much of --
these days, book starts with character waking up[1], Mary puts down
book...
> I suppose what it does it give me a sense of closure; but it's getting
> to be beyond a joke, and I'll have to eliminate a few, otherwise the
> reader will think it's a novel about an anti-insomniac - sleeps
> anywhere, any time, and usually longer than expected.
Well, there's the narcoleptic option, but that's a touch on the drastic
side...
My question would be: do you need closure? Or perhaps, how much closure
do you need, and is going to bed/sleep giving you too much of it?
Depending on what hooks you've planted in the text, finishing your scene
with too much closure makes a point where the reader can put the book down
and not ever go back to it.
If the character's sleeping but we know he's fretting his nuts off about
Alpha through Omega, that's usually fine. If everything's OK and he
sleeps, that may not be. (Unless it's an ominous kind of OK, with Disaster
Clearly Looming.)
You don't want everything to appear so settled that your narrative
tension's gone. I don't know whether this is what you're doing or not,
but there is a writerly habit of pushing on with the scene to the point
where it feels comfortable _to the writer,_ and then stopping - and it's
not always the right thing to do, because you risk it feeling way too
comfortable to the reader.
(It's reasonable to say that readers differ in how much they want and need
narrative tension, and you can be quite low-key for some readers, but on
the whole you can't do without some amount of that "I have to know what's
next" anxiety being created in the reader. It doesn't have to be on the
macro level, in terms of who is the murderer or will the planet blow up;
it can be as simple as will he wake up in the morning in time to speak to
X, or what's in the letter from Y, or whether the boil on his bum stops
itching... but I think you've got to have something.)
Anyhow, what I'm saying, I think, is are you capping things off so neatly
with the going to bed that the reader's going to drop off as well?
> Case in point:
>
> A difficult character is in the process of being won over by gumption
> and decent behaviour and by Rhailed demonstrating that he _cares_. He's
> asked for additional information that will help him accept that the
> cousin he adores is one of the Bad Guys; he's just gotten that
> information (in a paraphrased conversation); now he's going to bed to
> think.
Theoretically, I suppose he could go anywhere to think?
If one character keeps going to bed to work out problems, then it's
reasonable to think it represents something to him - security, safety,
whatever. If more than one character does it, you're either saying
something about the culture, or it is that narrative tic.
> The next morning, he'll get up, sit in Rhailed's garden (a wizard's
> garden, remember?) and step on the path towards acceptance. Which is
> important because his discontinued hostily allows Rha and Rhani to have
> another climatic scene where they deal, once and forever, with *her*.
> [Then the king dies, I wrap up a couple of threads with a letter, and
> I'll be at the end.]
Minor point: are Rhailed, Rha and Rhani two characters or three?
This is just peculiar to me, I think: if I'm reading something and it has
characters as alike as 'Rha' and 'Rhani', I'm going to have hell's own
time with it. I doubt it'll both most readers.
(Must be something about the letter 'R' -- I currently have one character
called Rekhmire, and another one wants to make an entrance calling himself
Ramiro. OK, so they both come from the differing cultures their names
imply, but I _still_ want to persuade Ramiro to go by one of his other
family names...)
> In many cases, night ends one scene and the morning begins the next; but
> I guess the problem is twofold:
>
> One, nighttime gives me a sense of closure and I find it difficult to,
> if I've written Another Day in the Life of Rhailed, to _skip_ 'he slept,
> he awoke, the next day brought-'.
If you are writing 'Another Day in the Life...', that would be a pointer,
to me, that it's a walking-pace book -- and I wouldn't be surprised to
find it on the biographical side of a novel, too. Which means I expect
less in the way of skid-pan turns, but still possibly means I can have too
much of the rhythm of Rhailed's days.
> Two, I have a hard time finding transitions, and the sleeping/getting up
> in a different mood seems to be an easy scene-reset switch that I make
> use of frequently.
>
> Help, please.
Sometimes you can omit the transition and do a jump-cut. Which can either
be new paragraph or new scene, depending on the nature of the events.
You could do "...he didn't sleep well./new para/ By the time he finished
laying awake and finally got up, it was past dawn" without needing a scene
break. For a more drastic change of action, a cut would be fine.
But leaving that level of the technical aspect aside... it looks like what
you're describing is a difficulty shifting emotional gears. Here's a
question: do you find you shift gears OK within a scene, but it's a
problem at the end? Or is the shifting gears a problem per se, and it
needs a scene change for you to do it?
I'm just wondering what the functions of a "scene-reset switch" would be,
and the above is what I come up with. If I've got it completely arse
about tit... :-(
If you don't like the sleeping/getting up, and no useful transitional
paragraph occurs to you, you can probably get rid of the difficulty by
just snipping off the end of one scene, and likewise snipping the
beginning of the following one. It may well _read_ just fine like that.
The fact that you have to write it that way to get it written isn't a
problem -- not everything you have to do needs to appear in the final
version of the manuscript. (A chronic over-writer writes. :)
The other thing is, that just because you've noticed you do this, that
doesn't mean readers will notice.
Unfortunately, it doesn't mean they won't, either...
Mary
Most recently published:
1610: A SUNDIAL IN A GRAVE, novel, Orion UK, hc & tpb
CARTOMANCY, short story collection, Orion UK, pb
[1] Especially if said character is discovered to have amnesia on waking,
and something interesting doesn't happen _in that very paragraph_ to make
me read on. I get positively grumpy then...
Irina Rempt
> (Must be something about the letter 'R' -- I currently have one
> character called Rekhmire, and another one wants to make an entrance
> calling himself
> Ramiro. OK, so they both come from the differing cultures their names
> imply, but I _still_ want to persuade Ramiro to go by one of his other
> family names...)
I've got Rhanyn and Raneth, both mother figures to the same young man
(Rhanyn is his actual mother, Raneth is more of a role model, and turns
out to be his aunt in the end). It's probably Rhanyn who will have to
give up her name, because Raneth is a minor character in the W that
ought to be in S but isn't.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 23-Mar-2004
Brian M. Scott
<ir...@valdyas.org> wrote in
<news:1094848.K...@calcifer.valdyas.org> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> I've got Rhanyn and Raneth, both mother figures to the same young man
> (Rhanyn is his actual mother, Raneth is more of a role model, and turns
> out to be his aunt in the end). It's probably Rhanyn who will have to
> give up her name, because Raneth is a minor character in the W that
> ought to be in S but isn't.
And I suppose that most readers won't share my view that <R>
and <Rh> are substantially different things.
Brian
Irina Rempt
Well, *I* do (and the imaginary speakers of the relevant dialects of the
relevant language do), but I'm thinking of readers, yes. Strangely, -yn
and -eth are *not* substantially different things; they're both ways to
signal [female name] in different dialects.
I also think that a father and son can be called Jichan and Jilan, or
Airath and Aidan, because that's very common in the culture; but I
don't think editors will.
Helen
<ir...@valdyas.org> writes
>On Sunday 23 May 2004 22:44 Brian M. Scott (b.s...@csuohio.edu) wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 23 May 2004 21:34:43 +0200 Irina Rempt
>> <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote in
>> <news:1094848.K...@calcifer.valdyas.org> in
>> rec.arts.sf.composition:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I've got Rhanyn and Raneth, both mother figures to the same young man
>>> (Rhanyn is his actual mother, Raneth is more of a role model, and
>>> turns out to be his aunt in the end). It's probably Rhanyn who will
>>> have to give up her name, because Raneth is a minor character in the
>>> W that ought to be in S but isn't.
>>
>> And I suppose that most readers won't share my view that <R>
>> and <Rh> are substantially different things.
>
>Well, *I* do (and the imaginary speakers of the relevant dialects of the
>relevant language do), but I'm thinking of readers, yes. Strangely, -yn
>and -eth are *not* substantially different things; they're both ways to
>signal [female name] in different dialects.
>
>I also think that a father and son can be called Jichan and Jilan, or
>Airath and Aidan, because that's very common in the culture; but I
>don't think editors will.
>
> Irina
>
bit less so, but actually Rhanyn and Raneth would be just about OK.
It's the shape of the words that I go by when reading, not the sound and
so with the h next to the R and the y going down below the line, there's
probably enough difference to manage.
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
Nicola Browne
news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com
>> .
>
> (Must be something about the letter 'R' -- I currently have one character
> called Rekhmire, and another one wants to make an entrance calling himself
> Ramiro. OK, so they both come from the differing cultures their names
> imply, but I _still_ want to persuade Ramiro to go by one of his other
> family names...)
>
I often seem to end up with similar names though I'm more aware of it
after an editor intelligently vetoed a cast of characters called:
Macsen, Marie and Max - it worked for Mary, Mungo and Midge but that
wasn't quite the tone I was after...
Khiem Tran
> I have long suspected, and re-reading has confirmed, that I have not
> just coincidence, but a nasty habit.
>
> A lot of scenelets, scens and chapters end with Rhailed going to bed and
> begin with my protag getting up.
>
> I suppose what it does it give me a sense of closure; but it's getting
> to be beyond a joke, and I'll have to eliminate a few, otherwise the
> reader will think it's a novel about an anti-insomniac - sleeps
> anywhere, any time, and usually longer than expected.
Can my characters come and stay with you for a while? They're always
complaining that they don't get enough sleep, what with the night
chases and the constant pressure and everything (and for some reason
they always bring it up in those passages written late at night).
> Case in point:
>
> A difficult character is in the process of being won over by gumption
> and decent behaviour and by Rhailed demonstrating that he _cares_. He's
> asked for additional information that will help him accept that the
> cousin he adores is one of the Bad Guys; he's just gotten that
> information (in a paraphrased conversation); now he's going to bed to
> think.
> The next morning, he'll get up, sit in Rhailed's garden (a wizard's
> garden, remember?) and step on the path towards acceptance. Which is
> important because his discontinued hostily allows Rha and Rhani to have
> another climatic scene where they deal, once and forever, with *her*.
> [Then the king dies, I wrap up a couple of threads with a letter, and
> I'll be at the end.]
Hmm. It sounds like your characters do get to do a lot of thinking and
mulling over in your novel. Maybe you should make a list of all the
different ways they could do this and then work out which ones fit
which character. Maybe one needs to sleep on things, but someone else
goes out riding or hunting or drinks with his friends, or talks to
anyone who will listen. Or maybe some of your characters don't even
need that contemplation time at all - they can click onto a solution
in the middle of a conversation or an argument, or even mid-sentence.
> In many cases, night ends one scene and the morning begins the next; but
> I guess the problem is twofold:
>
> One, nighttime gives me a sense of closure and I find it difficult to,
> if I've written Another Day in the Life of Rhailed, to _skip_ 'he slept,
> he awoke, the next day brought-'.
>
> Two, I have a hard time finding transitions, and the sleeping/getting up
> in a different mood seems to be an easy scene-reset switch that I make
> use of frequently.
I think I might have the opposite problem. I'll often end scenes in
the middle of conversations, as soon as the important lines are out of
the way.
Khiem.
R. L.
Tran) wrote:
/snip/
>Hmm. It sounds like your characters do get to do a lot of thinking and
>mulling over in your novel. Maybe you should make a list of all the
>different ways they could do this and then work out which ones fit
>which character.
Sounds like the sort of thing I'd do. :-)
>Maybe one needs to sleep on things, but someone else
>goes out riding or hunting or drinks with his friends, or talks to
>anyone who will listen. Or maybe some of your characters don't even
>need that contemplation time at all - they can click onto a solution
>in the middle of a conversation or an argument, or even mid-sentence.
Yes, Patricia talked about that sort of thing a lot in the old threads
on Scenes. She would have the scene end at that point, too.
/snip/
>> Two, I have a hard time finding transitions, and the sleeping/getting up
>> in a different mood seems to be an easy scene-reset switch that I make
>> use of frequently.
>
>I think I might have the opposite problem. I'll often end scenes in
>the middle of conversations, as soon as the important lines are out of
>the way.
As a reader, of the two excesses I think I'd be more likely to get
confused and drop your book, than Catja's. :-) I can always skim the
'yet another sleep as closure.' But of course if really nothing
interesting happens after the important lines, that would be a problem
too....
R.L.
--
http://www.houseboatonthestyx.com/rasfc/
taboos, 'rules', links to archives & FAQs & crit groups etc
David Friedman
"Nicola Browne" <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Artos, Aristos, Asbjorn, Anne, Andrew. All important characters in the
WIS or WIP (sequel).
--
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Jeanette
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:7a0d1f2ac09e9729fa...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Max and Marie wouldn't bother or confuse me. I think that similar names for
the characters is less confusing if they're already familiar names from your
own culture. I am, however, after almost 300,000 words, seriously thinking
of renaming one of my two major female characters. What do you guys think?
Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
Jeanette
Khiem Tran
> On 23 May 2004 15:50:18 -0700, nguyen_k...@yahoo.com.au (Khiem
> Tran) wrote:
>
> /snip/
>
> >Hmm. It sounds like your characters do get to do a lot of thinking and
> >mulling over in your novel. Maybe you should make a list of all the
> >different ways they could do this and then work out which ones fit
> >which character.
>
> Sounds like the sort of thing I'd do. :-)
Thinking about it a bit more, I probably wouldn't go as far as making
a list - I'd probably be looking at the characters themselves and
wondering what they'd do.
> >I think I might have the opposite problem. I'll often end scenes in
> >the middle of conversations, as soon as the important lines are out of
> >the way.
>
> As a reader, of the two excesses I think I'd be more likely to get
> confused and drop your book, than Catja's. :-) I can always skim the
> 'yet another sleep as closure.' But of course if really nothing
> interesting happens after the important lines, that would be a problem
> too....
Yes, I think with my writing, I tend to see some of it as "this is the
story" and the rest as "this is what else happens", and I like to keep
the latter part to a minimum. When I've tried to pad out some of my
scenes to add more background detail, it's usually ended badly.
Khiem.
Brian M. Scott
<ver...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<news:Wlhsc.7598$C86....@pathologist.blueyonder.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
Not to me: the first has four syllables, the second only
two, and the connotations are wildly different.
Brian
Petter Hesselberg
How do you get four syllables out of 'Diana'? Dianana?
--
Petter
(The email address attached to this message is valid but useless.
Use petter at petterhesselberg dot com to email me.)
Petter Hesselberg
> [...]
> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
Not necessarily _too_ similar, but perhaps _unnecessarily_ similar?
Irina Rempt
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:22:13 +0100 "Jeanette"
>> <ver...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> <news:Wlhsc.7598$C86....@pathologist.blueyonder.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.composition:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>>
>> Not to me: the first has four syllables, the second only
>> two, and the connotations are wildly different.
Depends on the accent, I suppose; I say "die-AN-na" and "DON-na" but
I can imagine an (American) accent that has "DIE-(@)-na" (almost like
"Dinah") and "DAH-na", with the glide in "Diana" as the only
significant difference.
> How do you get four syllables out of 'Diana'? Dianana?
'dah-ee-AN-na' I suppose.
Nicola Browne
news:Wlhsc.7598$C86....@pathologist.blueyonder.net
>
I am, however, after almost 300,000 words, seriously thinking
> of renaming one of my two major female characters. What do you guys think?
> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>
If you only read the initial letter when reading ( which I'm ashamed to
say I often do ) then yes.
Mary Gentle
ver...@hotmail.com (Jeanette) wrote:
[...]
> Max and Marie wouldn't bother or confuse me. I think that similar names
> for
> the characters is less confusing if they're already familiar names from
> your
> own culture. I am, however, after almost 300,000 words, seriously
> thinking
> of renaming one of my two major female characters. What do you guys
> think?
> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
Eeek. _Very_ borderline. I do as much with shapes as sounds, when I'm
reading, so same initial letter, same number of letters, and ending in the
same vowel don't help me at all.
But they do sound sufficiently different that I /might/ be OK.
Mary Gentle
nicky.m...@btinternet.com (Nicola Browne) wrote:
<snurk!> Oh, I do know the problem... :) Although I think that might
have worked for me without the Macsen/Max conjunction.
It's one of those things where I'm reasonably glad I don't have to copy
real life -- I must know five or six people called Steve, and a fair
number of Elizabeths (though they have useful variants), and many Daves,
and...you'd spend hell's own time in a novel trying to keep clear who was
who.
Mary Gentle
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:22:13 +0100 "Jeanette"
> <ver...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> <news:Wlhsc.7598$C86....@pathologist.blueyonder.net> in
> rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> [...]
>
> > Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>
> Not to me: the first has four syllables,
FOUR?!
>the second only
> two, and the connotations are wildly different.
<exits vaguely mumbling, trying to get more than three syllables into
Diana...>
Mary
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> It's one of those things where I'm reasonably glad I don't have to copy
> real life -- I must know five or six people called Steve, and a fair
> number of Elizabeths (though they have useful variants), and many Daves,
> and...you'd spend hell's own time in a novel trying to keep clear who was
> who.
We've got two Alessandra at our publisher: until not long ago we _also_
had two Tommaso.
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@spamcop.net - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/annafdd/
Helen
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> writes
But to a visual reader, that doesn't matter. To me they're just both
Dxxna and could easily get muddled.
Catja Pafort
> [...]
>
> > Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>
> Not to me: the first has four syllables, the second only
> two, and the connotations are wildly different.
Shame on you for not being able to count!
(Alternatively, provide a four-syllable pronounciation of Diana as .wav
file <EG>)
Catja
I think they'd get past the filter on virtue of being familiar names
where Kavin and Navir might not.
Mary Gentle
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > It's one of those things where I'm reasonably glad I don't have to
> > copy
> > real life -- I must know five or six people called Steve, and a fair
> > number of Elizabeths (though they have useful variants), and many
> > Daves,
> > and...you'd spend hell's own time in a novel trying to keep clear who
> > was
> > who.
>
> We've got two Alessandra at our publisher: until not long ago we _also_
> had two Tommaso.
Under those circumstances, does somebody get stuck with the diminutive (if
there is one)? Or do they just end up permanently being called "I-mean-
Alessandra-in-Editorial-not=Publicity" or something along those lines?
Which also strikes me as something that could easily wear out its welcome
in a novel...
Jeanette
Thank you. As Mary and Helen have said, if you look at shapes, rather than
'sounding' the words, perhaps they are too similar. I'll talk to my friendly
readers and listen to them too.
Jeanette
Brian M. Scott
<m...@privacy.net> wrote in
<news:iKisc.3610$RL3....@news2.e.nsc.no> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:22:13 +0100 "Jeanette"
>> <ver...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> <news:Wlhsc.7598$C86....@pathologist.blueyonder.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.composition:
>> [...]
>>> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>> Not to me: the first has four syllables, the second only
>> two, and the connotations are wildly different.
> How do you get four syllables out of 'Diana'? Dianana?
By posting at 0330 when I'm still zonked from my first
200-mile week of cycling. That's a typo for 'three'.
Brian
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Under those circumstances, does somebody get stuck with the diminutive (if
> there is one)? Or do they just end up permanently being called "I-mean-
> Alessandra-in-Editorial-not=Publicity" or something along those lines?
Well, the two permanent Alessandra are called Ale and Ale-Zorzi
respectively, when there is any possibility of confusion; of the two
Tommies, one was an intern, and he tended to work downstairs while the
other, permanent, Tommy worked upstairs...
R. L.
Tran) wrote:
>R. L. <see...@nospams.coms> wrote in message news:<86d2b05tubpg7l6gm...@4ax.com>...
>> On 23 May 2004 15:50:18 -0700, nguyen_k...@yahoo.com.au (Khiem
>> Tran) wrote:
>>
>> /snip/
>>
>> >Hmm. It sounds like your characters do get to do a lot of thinking and
>> >mulling over in your novel. Maybe you should make a list of all the
>> >different ways they could do this and then work out which ones fit
>> >which character.
>>
>> Sounds like the sort of thing I'd do. :-)
>
>Thinking about it a bit more, I probably wouldn't go as far as making
>a list - I'd probably be looking at the characters themselves and
>wondering what they'd do.
However arrived at, it might make a nice motif, recurring character hook
or something. Instead of Joe Fighter doing his mulling ('sequels'?) at
random, he could sometimes wander away to practice with bow and arrows,
sometimes to sharpen his sword, etc.
>> >I think I might have the opposite problem. I'll often end scenes in
>> >the middle of conversations, as soon as the important lines are out of
>> >the way.
>>
>> As a reader, of the two excesses I think I'd be more likely to get
>> confused and drop your book, than Catja's. :-) I can always skim the
>> 'yet another sleep as closure.' But of course if really nothing
>> interesting happens after the important lines, that would be a problem
>> too....
>
>Yes, I think with my writing, I tend to see some of it as "this is the
>story" and the rest as "this is what else happens", and I like to keep
>the latter part to a minimum.
What a great knack! I'm trying to develop it.
Hm, actually I think one of my muse team has that knack already, but
uses it to keep the team from getting scenic about the 'what else'.
While others on the team are happily making all sorts of cool 'what
else' notes....
>When I've tried to pad out some of my
>scenes to add more background detail, it's usually ended badly.
Yes. Your excess might be more to the majority taste. I like reading
well-defined closures every chapter or so, but that may be an
old-fashioned taste.
Anyway I wasn't thinking of keeping the same level of detail all the way
from the important lines to when he finally gets to bed hours later.
Maybe skipping to him preparing for bed ('sequel') or a transition
focused on bed, like this:
====
/detailed action/
She stalked away from the breakfast table. All day at rehearsels he
wondered what he had done to upset her, and all night he dreamed of what
she and the Dormouse and the Hatter had revealed about the Major Arcana.
He woke with a hint of a possible solution, which he could not quite
remember. Something about a piggy mouse? Well, that was a place to
start. He biked to the library and climbed the dusty stairs to the
Hybrid Rodent section.
The mousy Librarian looked up /detailed action/.
====
Cheers,
R.L.
--
http://www.houseboatonthestyx.com/rasfc/
Taboos, 'rules', links to archives & FAQs & crit groups etc
Blog http://www.midnightengineers.com/rl/rasfc/rasfc-blog.html
R. L.
wrote:
>Jeanette wrote:
>> [...]
>> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>
>Not necessarily _too_ similar, but perhaps _unnecessarily_ similar?
Yes. I'd expect there to be a *reason* for an apparently unnecessary
similarity. Like Marianne and Margarette(sp?) in GREEN DOLPHIN STREET.
R.L.
Mary Gentle
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Under those circumstances, does somebody get stuck with the
> > diminutive (if
> > there is one)? Or do they just end up permanently being called
> > "I-mean-
> > Alessandra-in-Editorial-not=Publicity" or something along those lines?
>
> Well, the two permanent Alessandra are called Ale and Ale-Zorzi
> respectively, when there is any possibility of confusion; of the two
> Tommies, one was an intern, and he tended to work downstairs while the
> other, permanent, Tommy worked upstairs...
Ah, right. That's pretty much the way it would work in the UK...
It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a restricted
number of personal names. Wasn't it the Romans who had something like 20
male first names? And then the medieval Christian societies who stuck to
saint's names -- where it looks like _everybody_ female is called Margaret
or Joan. :) I do wonder what they'd make of something like the lists of
names on US baby-name sites[1].
Mary
Most recently published:
1610: A SUNDIAL IN A GRAVE, novel, Orion UK, hc & tpb
CARTOMANCY, short story collection, Orion UK, pb
[1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord, no... :)
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
Well, Diana is a goddess and Donna is not.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Marilee J. Layman
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:22:13 +0100 "Jeanette"
><ver...@hotmail.com> wrote in
><news:Wlhsc.7598$C86....@pathologist.blueyonder.net> in
>rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
>[...]
>
>> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>
>Not to me: the first has four syllables,
erm?
the second only
>two, and the connotations are wildly different.
>
>Brian
--
Marilee J. Layman
Brian M. Scott
(Mary Gentle) wrote in
<news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a restricted
> number of personal names. Wasn't it the Romans who had something like 20
> male first names?
The number of praenomina did come to be very small, and at a
fairly early date, too, but by then men were usually known
by some other part of the name.
[...]
Brian
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a restricted
> number of personal names. Wasn't it the Romans who had something like 20
> male first names?
Not only that: every woman in a family was called the family's name,
period. Clodia, daughter of Clodia, sister of Clodia, Clodia and Clodia
and mother of Julia, Julia, Julia, Caius, Marius and of course little
Julia. :-)
They had ways of telling them apart but not that many.
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, 24 May 2004 13:36:47 +0200, ada...@spamcop.net (Anna
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> It's one of those things where I'm reasonably glad I don't have to
>> copy real life -- I must know five or six people called Steve, and
>> a fair number of Elizabeths (though they have useful variants),
>> and many Daves, and...you'd spend hell's own time in a novel
>> trying to keep clear who was who.
>
>We've got two Alessandra at our publisher: until not long ago we
>_also_ had two Tommaso.
I used to work at a business that had four men, counting myself,
named John. This wouldn't have been too bad had it not been for the
young lady that they had operate the company switchboard for an hour
each afternoon, when the regular operator took a lunch break. This
lady was none too bright, to put it bluntly, and didn't pay attention
to the last name of who you requested, only the first name. So,
nearly every day during the two months that she was the substitute
switchboard operator, I got a phone call intended for one of the
other guys named John in the building.
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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Mary K. Kuhner
>I used to work at a business that had four men, counting myself,
>named John.
Had a small event some years back where all five participants were
named either Jo(h)n or Mary (three of one, two of the other).
When this started recurring we ended up with John, Jonathan,
Jay, Mary and Mary Kaye. People still answered to each others'
names, though.
Crowley's first published novel (_The Deep_?) was like this and
I never did manage to read it. I just could not get the
characters straight enough to connect with them. I think it's
a very dangerous thing to do in a novel, despite its realism.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Michelle Bottorff
>
> > I've got Rhanyn and Raneth, both mother figures to the same young man
> > (Rhanyn is his actual mother, Raneth is more of a role model, and turns
> > out to be his aunt in the end). It's probably Rhanyn who will have to
> > give up her name, because Raneth is a minor character in the W that
> > ought to be in S but isn't.
>
> And I suppose that most readers won't share my view that <R>
> and <Rh> are substantially different things.
I had readers complaining because I have three characters whose names
all start the same: Asond, Asolind, Asolde
The thing is, it's a culture where the names of sets of siblings are
*deliberately* similar, and so thus you get the brother and two sisters
that all sound very similar.
But I have a sneaky plan...
What if I have one of my viewpoint characters, who is not well aquainted
with these people, *also* get them mixed up? That makes it okay, right?
the reader goes, "ack! I can't tell which name goes to who!" and then
they go, "oh, I see, nobody else can either... alright."
How's that for a theory?
--
Michelle Bottorff -> Chelle B. -> Shelby
L. Shelby, Writer http://homepage.mac.com/mbottorff/Writing/
Lady Lavender's Filksongs http://www.FreeMars.org/lavender/
J.Pascal
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a restricted
> > number of personal names. Wasn't it the Romans who had something like 20
> > male first names?
>
> Not only that: every woman in a family was called the family's name,
> period. Clodia, daughter of Clodia, sister of Clodia, Clodia and Clodia
> and mother of Julia, Julia, Julia, Caius, Marius and of course little
> Julia. :-)
>
> They had ways of telling them apart but not that many.
I don't know that it would be all that much more
confusing than now. At least I wouldn't call my
daughters the wrong names. They generally go by
directional cues anyway, since I'm as likely to
yell "Naomi!" when I really want Rachel and "Rachel!"
when I need Gabrielle. "Hey, you!" works reasonably
well, also. ;-)
j.pascal
Graham Woodland
there to be any reason at all.
In my WIP -- the Faerie King thing -- there's a set-up vaguely analogous
to the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne. There is a sort of quartet among
them who are very close, and none of them are related to any of the
others. They're called
Clovis, Clare, Camilla and Constanza
and I wouldn't have thought any of them are likely to be confused with
any of the others; but I'm always ready to hear different.
A rival faction in court do, however, refer to them derisively as the
'Four Seas (Cs) Over'...
Cheers,
--
Gray
http://www.quilpole.demon.co.uk
"She does not get eaten by the sharks at this time."
- William Goldman, _The Princess Bride_.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I used to work at a business that had four men, counting myself,
> named John. This wouldn't have been too bad had it not been for the
> young lady that they had operate the company switchboard for an hour
> each afternoon, when the regular operator took a lunch break. This
> lady was none too bright, to put it bluntly, and didn't pay attention
> to the last name of who you requested, only the first name. So,
> nearly every day during the two months that she was the substitute
> switchboard operator, I got a phone call intended for one of the
> other guys named John in the building.
Once, me and Anna Mazzoldi got embroiled with a guy on a mailing list
who ranted at me for something she had said, and later explained that he
didn't know how to tell us apart, since we _both had the same name_.
Zeborah
> In article <1gealrr.22kn1xnfbggyN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
> > We've got two Alessandra at our publisher: until not long ago we _also_
> > had two Tommaso.
>
> Under those circumstances, does somebody get stuck with the diminutive (if
> there is one)? Or do they just end up permanently being called "I-mean-
> Alessandra-in-Editorial-not=Publicity" or something along those lines?
There are two Alison's(1) where I work; they generally get referred to
with their full name, Alison Smith vs Alison Jones.
When I was thirteen, there were five Sarah's in my class. (Someone
confided in me that she had an urge to stand at the end of the row of
lockers one day and call "Hey, Sarah!" to see them all look up at once.)
One was known by "Jaffa", a nickname based on her surname. The others,
I can't remember; I think they were also known as "Sarah [surname]".
Zeborah
Petter Hesselberg
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:22:13 +0100, "Jeanette" <ver...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Are 'Diana' and 'Donna' too similar?
>
> Well, Diana is a goddess and Donna is not.
Actually, Donna is a minor goddess in the pantheon of The Church of the
Primordial Starship (which I will found as soon as I get half a day free
from other pressures).
--
Petter
(The email address attached to this message is valid but useless.
Use petter at petterhesselberg dot com to email me.)
Zeborah
> I don't know that it would be all that much more
> confusing than now. At least I wouldn't call my
> daughters the wrong names. They generally go by
> directional cues anyway, since I'm as likely to
> yell "Naomi!" when I really want Rachel and "Rachel!"
> when I need Gabrielle. "Hey, you!" works reasonably
> well, also. ;-)
Mum's father used to call her "David-I-mean Keith-I-mean Alison-I-mean
Catherine!"
Zeborah
Mary Gentle
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a
> > restricted
> > number of personal names. Wasn't it the Romans who had something
> > like 20
> > male first names?
>
> Not only that: every woman in a family was called the family's name,
> period. Clodia, daughter of Clodia, sister of Clodia, Clodia and Clodia
> and mother of Julia, Julia, Julia, Caius, Marius and of course little
> Julia. :-)
>
> They had ways of telling them apart but not that many.
No wonder they had an empire! "No, no, I _had_ to conquer your tribe,
just to meet somebody called 'Brunhilde'..." :-)
Mary Gentle
> John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>
> > I used to work at a business that had four men, counting myself,
> > named John. This wouldn't have been too bad had it not been for the
> > young lady that they had operate the company switchboard for an hour
> > each afternoon, when the regular operator took a lunch break. This
> > lady was none too bright, to put it bluntly, and didn't pay attention
> > to the last name of who you requested, only the first name. So,
> > nearly every day during the two months that she was the substitute
> > switchboard operator, I got a phone call intended for one of the
> > other guys named John in the building.
>
> Once, me and Anna Mazzoldi got embroiled with a guy on a mailing list
> who ranted at me for something she had said, and later explained that he
> didn't know how to tell us apart, since we _both had the same name_.
Did you explain the concept of surname to him, or would it have been the
waste of a baseball bat?
Stuart Houghton
>
> [1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord, no...
> :)
Spare a thought, sibling - I have recently been googling like a demon to
find plausible first names and (slightly more difficult, this) surnames for
what seems to be an ever-growing list of Bangladeshi, Indian and Iraqi
characters in my WIP.
Just when I think I have a complete list of names that sound good, one of
the characters will whisper something to me about a long-lost uncle or
previously unmentioned girlfriend and before you know it, WALLOP! I'm back
vacuuming that particular cat again. :)
--
Stuart Houghton
blog:http://rippingyarns.blogspot.com/
book reviews:http://asciimonkey.blogspot.com/
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <1gec4f3.128dw41nmfpcyN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
> > John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I used to work at a business that had four men, counting myself,
> > > named John. This wouldn't have been too bad had it not been for the
> > > young lady that they had operate the company switchboard for an hour
> > > each afternoon, when the regular operator took a lunch break. This
> > > lady was none too bright, to put it bluntly, and didn't pay attention
> > > to the last name of who you requested, only the first name. So,
> > > nearly every day during the two months that she was the substitute
> > > switchboard operator, I got a phone call intended for one of the
> > > other guys named John in the building.
> >
> > Once, me and Anna Mazzoldi got embroiled with a guy on a mailing list
> > who ranted at me for something she had said, and later explained that he
> > didn't know how to tell us apart, since we _both had the same name_.
>
> Did you explain the concept of surname to him, or would it have been the
> waste of a baseball bat?
It was long ago, and besides, the wretch has been killfiled. I don't
even remember his name. Angelo... Angelo... no, it's gone. :-)
Such fickle fame the name of troll confers.
Mary Gentle
stu_ajh-utter...@hotmail.com (Stuart Houghton) wrote:
> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>
>
> >
> > [1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord,
> > no...
> > :)
>
> Spare a thought, sibling - I have recently been googling like a demon
> to find plausible first names and (slightly more difficult, this)
> surnames for what seems to be an ever-growing list of Bangladeshi,
> Indian and Iraqi characters in my WIP.
I did find a quite decent 'baby names around the world' site, a while
back, if it's still there; remind me to look for the URL if you need it.
Which reminds me, does anybody know what happened to Eponym? :-(
> Just when I think I have a complete list of names that sound good, one
> of the characters will whisper something to me about a long-lost uncle
> or previously unmentioned girlfriend and before you know it, WALLOP!
> I'm back vacuuming that particular cat again. :)
Purrrrr.
At least yours are only geographically distant. Try finding what cute
nicknames the Vandals and Visigoths gave their babies...
Stuart Houghton
> In article <Xns94F492029BBF4...@130.133.1.4>,
> stu_ajh-utter...@hotmail.com (Stuart Houghton) wrote:
>
>> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
>> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>>
>>
>> >
>> > [1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord,
>> > no...
>> > :)
>>
>> Spare a thought, sibling - I have recently been googling like a demon
>> to find plausible first names and (slightly more difficult, this)
>> surnames for what seems to be an ever-growing list of Bangladeshi,
>> Indian and Iraqi characters in my WIP.
>
> I did find a quite decent 'baby names around the world' site, a while
> back, if it's still there; remind me to look for the URL if you need it.
Ooh, that'd be grand, ta.
>
> Which reminds me, does anybody know what happened to Eponym? :-(
[*]
> At least yours are only geographically distant. Try finding what cute
> nicknames the Vandals and Visigoths gave their babies...
*ouch*
Anna Mazzoldi
> I had readers complaining because I have three characters whose names
> all start the same: Asond, Asolind, Asolde
>
> The thing is, it's a culture where the names of sets of siblings are
> *deliberately* similar, and so thus you get the brother and two sisters
> that all sound very similar.
>
> But I have a sneaky plan...
> What if I have one of my viewpoint characters, who is not well aquainted
> with these people, *also* get them mixed up? That makes it okay, right?
> the reader goes, "ack! I can't tell which name goes to who!" and then
> they go, "oh, I see, nobody else can either... alright."
>
> How's that for a theory?
I would like it and appreciate it. (I'm very bad at keeping names straight
in RL as well, so I don't worry if I mix them up in books. But I would
still think it's a nice touch -- quite apart from saying, "Yes, the author
did notice, she actually had a reason for it!")
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
Who is this General Failure
and why is he reading my hard drive?
Anna Mazzoldi
> In article <1geawe3.449zgu1gh8ydzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
>> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Under those circumstances, does somebody get stuck with the
>>> diminutive (if
>>> there is one)? Or do they just end up permanently being called
>>> "I-mean-
>>> Alessandra-in-Editorial-not=Publicity" or something along those lines?
>>
>> Well, the two permanent Alessandra are called Ale and Ale-Zorzi
>> respectively, when there is any possibility of confusion; of the two
>> Tommies, one was an intern, and he tended to work downstairs while the
>> other, permanent, Tommy worked upstairs...
>
> Ah, right. That's pretty much the way it would work in the UK...
>
> It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a restricted
> number of personal names.
...or just very common personal names that can't be mangled. Like Anna, for
a random example ;-). At one point, there were 3 of us in my class. We got
called by surname (or, most often, name-and-surname) when confusion was
possible. (Second names are also much less common in Italy than in Ireland
or the UK, thus removing another handy trick... of the 3 Annas, for
example, none had a second name.)
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
A child of five could understand this!
Fetch me a child of five.
Jeanette
Zeborah <zeb...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:1ged30t.7bwnj97mwcbrN%zeb...@paradise.net.nz...
The Lancashire version of that is 'Jeanette-why-Wendy-why-Claire-why-Mark'.
There are advantages to being the eldest child in a family.
Jeanette
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> ...or just very common personal names that can't be mangled. Like Anna, for
> a random example ;-). At one point, there were 3 of us in my class. We got
> called by surname (or, most often, name-and-surname) when confusion was
> possible. (Second names are also much less common in Italy than in Ireland
> or the UK, thus removing another handy trick... of the 3 Annas, for
> example, none had a second name.)
That's strange: in my class at elementary school, I was the _only_ one
without a second name, and suffered somewhat of the lack. Though I was
glad not to be called Serenella Reginetta Genoveffa Celestina as one
unfortunate soul at my high-school...
Julia Jones
Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> writes
>
>[1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord, no... :)
These are the ones I find most useful:
http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/eng.html
(English personal names, the site also has sections for names in other
languages)
http://www.familychronicle.com/surname.htm
Unfortunately the local telephone directory is not very good for
providing inspiration for British surnames, which is what I usually
want. I should have brought an old one with me from the UK, although I
suppose if I had, Other Half would throw it out as useless junk.
--
Julia Jones
"We are English of Borg. Your language will be assimilated."
Neil Barnes
> At least yours are only geographically distant. Try finding
> what cute nicknames the Vandals and Visigoths gave their
> babies...
Aw. look at little Masher, he's just invaded his first country!
Isn't he sweet?
Neil
--
note - the email address in this message is valid but the
signal to noise ratio approaches -40dB. A more useful address
is a similar account at ntlworld-fullstop-com.
Anna Mazzoldi
> Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>> ...or just very common personal names that can't be mangled. Like Anna, for
>> a random example ;-). At one point, there were 3 of us in my class. We got
>> called by surname (or, most often, name-and-surname) when confusion was
>> possible. (Second names are also much less common in Italy than in Ireland
>> or the UK, thus removing another handy trick... of the 3 Annas, for
>> example, none had a second name.)
>
> That's strange: in my class at elementary school, I was the _only_ one
> without a second name, and suffered somewhat of the lack.
Interesting. Maybe it's a regional thing. No idea, never thought about it.
> Though I was
> glad not to be called Serenella Reginetta Genoveffa Celestina as one
> unfortunate soul at my high-school...
Yes, I think anybody would be... ;-)
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart body.
Dan Goodman
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> writes
>>
>>[1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord,
>>no... :)
>
>
> These are the ones I find most useful:
> http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/eng.html
> (English personal names, the site also has sections for names in other
> languages)
> http://www.familychronicle.com/surname.htm
Looking up my own name, I see they give only one derivation. They leave
out the derivations from Godmundson and similar Scandinavian names.
> Unfortunately the local telephone directory is not very good for
> providing inspiration for British surnames, which is what I usually
> want. I should have brought an old one with me from the UK, although I
> suppose if I had, Other Half would throw it out as useless junk.
Look for web telephone directories.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Brian M. Scott
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
<news:1gebc05.bv7v2oyfumiN%ada...@spamcop.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a restricted
>> number of personal names. Wasn't it the Romans who had something like 20
>> male first names?
> Not only that: every woman in a family was called the family's name,
> period. Clodia, daughter of Clodia, sister of Clodia, Clodia and Clodia
> and mother of Julia, Julia, Julia, Caius, Marius and of course little
> Julia. :-)
> They had ways of telling them apart but not that many.
Though by the first century CE it had become quite common
for women to adopt cognomina.
Brian
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
Ah, those depraved times! And they started traipsing around outside the
house too, I hear. :-)
Brian M. Scott
(Michelle Bottorff) wrote in
<news:1gea8li.lwca5m1xpdtvkN%mbot...@mac.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> I had readers complaining because I have three characters whose names
> all start the same: Asond, Asolind, Asolde
> The thing is, it's a culture where the names of sets of siblings are
> *deliberately* similar, and so thus you get the brother and two sisters
> that all sound very similar.
How very Germanic! Now I want the parents' names to be
something like <Asolf> and <Berolind>.
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<stu_ajh-utter...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<news:Xns94F49B24533E9...@130.133.1.4> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
[...]
>> Which reminds me, does anybody know what happened to Eponym? :-(
> [*]
Here's the description from the Medieval Names Archive,
which is intended for people interested in authentic
pre-1600 names?
Links to baby-name lists all over the web and an index
to name lists from cultures all over the world. It
includes pointers into our libraries, Kate Monk's
pages, and all sorts of other odd compilations. It
does index some useful sites, but there's no way to
judge the quality of what you'll find at the other
end of the link, and certainly no attempt to identify
the pages that are useful for our purposes.
It was at <www.eponym.org> and seems no longer to exist.
Kate Monk's Onomastikon at
<www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/> may be of some use
to writers. Here's the MNA description:
A very large collection of name lists from many different
cultures around the world, intended for gamers looking
for character names. An enormous amount of research
went into the construction of this site, but the author
chose to give no information on which names were taken
from which sources. Her sources are a hodge-podge of
scholarly tomes, baby-name books, and everything in
between. The more focused lists -- like those under
Medieval English Names -- are better than average, but
can only be taken as a starting point. They can't be
trusted without independent verification.
(The MNA itself is at <www.panix.com/~mittle/names>.)
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<julia...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
<news:S6HJxqDx...@jajones.demon.co.uk> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In message <memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>, Mary
> Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> writes
>>[1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord, no... :)
> These are the ones I find most useful:
> http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/eng.html
> (English personal names, the site also has sections for names in other
> languages)
I've seen much worse, but there are errors in the
etymologies.
> http://www.familychronicle.com/surname.htm
This one, on the other hand, is pretty awful.
Brian
Mary Gentle
(Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
Ha! Putting myself back into secondary school frame of mind -- never a
long trip :) -- that would have been 'Anne', 'Anna', and 'Annie',
just about instantly. Mind you, this was a class that occasionally
mangled 'Mary' to 'Mare' or 'Maz'...
(No, not more than the once; why do you ask? <g> )
Mary Gentle
stu_ajh-utter...@hotmail.com (Stuart Houghton) wrote:
> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>
> > In article <Xns94F492029BBF4...@130.133.1.4>,
> > stu_ajh-utter...@hotmail.com (Stuart Houghton) wrote:
> >
> >> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> >> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > [1]What, me use baby-name sites for naming characters? Good lord,
> >> > no...
> >> > :)
> >>
> >> Spare a thought, sibling - I have recently been googling like a
> > demon >to find plausible first names and (slightly more difficult,
> > this) >surnames for what seems to be an ever-growing list of
> > Bangladeshi, >Indian and Iraqi characters in my WIP.
> >
> > I did find a quite decent 'baby names around the world' site, a while
> > back, if it's still there; remind me to look for the URL if you need
> > it.
>
> Ooh, that'd be grand, ta.
http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/theworld.asp
will lead you to a lot of stuff. But be sure to double check it with
other sources; I'm not sure how reliable it is.
Well, that's web name sites for you... <sigh>
> > Which reminds me, does anybody know what happened to Eponym? :-(
>
> [*]
'Eponym.org' (and ditto 'international') used to be cracking for names,
and now the link doesn't go anywhere.
>
> > At least yours are only geographically distant. Try finding what
> > cute nicknames the Vandals and Visigoths gave their babies...
>
> *ouch*
Not to mention what's the Gothic for 'cuchie-coo'.
Thinking about that -- paging Mr Scott...! ;-)
Brian M. Scott
[...]
> Not to mention what's the Gothic for 'cuchie-coo'.
> Thinking about that -- paging Mr Scott...! ;-)
Dunno -- but <atta> is 'daddy'.
Brian
Anna Mazzoldi
> In article <13094pigj7vuo.f...@40tude.net>, AnnaU...@iol.ie
> (Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
>>
>> ...or just very common personal names that can't be mangled. Like Anna,
>> for
>> a random example ;-). At one point, there were 3 of us in my class. We
>> got
>> called by surname (or, most often, name-and-surname) when confusion was
>> possible.
>
> Ha! Putting myself back into secondary school frame of mind -- never a
> long trip :) -- that would have been 'Anne', 'Anna', and 'Annie',
> just about instantly.
Yep. But it doesn't work in Italian. The only available form of Anna in
Italian is Anna...
> Mind you, this was a class that occasionally
> mangled 'Mary' to 'Mare' or 'Maz'...
>
> (No, not more than the once; why do you ask? <g> )
:-))
--
Anna Mazzoldi <http://www.livejournal.com/users/aynathie/>
Bradiscisma (sm):
Scoppio violento di un profondo conflitto religioso
Brian M. Scott
[...]
> http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/theworld.asp
> will lead you to a lot of stuff. But be sure to double check it with
> other sources; I'm not sure how reliable it is.
Abominable. The 'Celtic', 'Anglo-Saxon', and 'Teutonic'
lists contain large amounts of crap. But what can you
expect of a site that has categories for Celtic *and* Irish
and Welsh names, and for Scandinavian *and* Norse, Swedish,
and Danish names?
[...]
Brian
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Yep. But it doesn't work in Italian. The only available form of Anna in
> Italian is Anna...
Yes: I tried to encourage the use of Anouchka, but nobody took it up.
Mary Gentle
(Neil Barnes) wrote:
> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>
>
> > At least yours are only geographically distant. Try finding
> > what cute nicknames the Vandals and Visigoths gave their
> > babies...
>
> Aw. look at little Masher, he's just invaded his first country!
> Isn't he sweet?
<mop> <mop> <mop>
And I thought I was safe with a cup of coffee at this hour of the
evening... :)
Mary
Neil Barnes
> In article <2hh9u1F...@uni-berlin.de>,
> nailed_...@hotmail.com (Neil Barnes) wrote:
>
>> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
>> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>>
>>
>> > At least yours are only geographically distant. Try
>> > finding what cute nicknames the Vandals and Visigoths gave
>> > their babies...
>>
>> Aw. look at little Masher, he's just invaded his first
>> country! Isn't he sweet?
>
> <mop> <mop> <mop>
>
> And I thought I was safe with a cup of coffee at this hour of
> the evening... :)
snrk. snrk. snrk. :)
Zeborah
> Ha! Putting myself back into secondary school frame of mind -- never a
> long trip :) -- that would have been 'Anne', 'Anna', and 'Annie',
> just about instantly. Mind you, this was a class that occasionally
> mangled 'Mary' to 'Mare' or 'Maz'...
Did it ever get as far as "Mazza"? (Or is that just an Australian
thing?)
Zeborah
Zeborah
> Unfortunately the local telephone directory is not very good for
> providing inspiration for British surnames, which is what I usually
> want. I should have brought an old one with me from the UK, although I
> suppose if I had, Other Half would throw it out as useless junk.
I brought an old telephone book home from New Caledonia. <looks around>
I think I threw it out as useless junk. But I did at least copy out a
page or so of surnames first.
(Oh, no, it's still here, along with the other good old useless junk.)
Zeborah
Dorothy J Heydt
Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
>news:1gebc05.bv7v2oyfumiN%ada...@spamcop.net:
>> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> It just has me wondering about societies where there's only a
>>> something like 20 male first names?
>>
>> Not only that: every woman in a family was called the family's name,
>> period. Clodia, daughter of Clodia, sister of Clodia, Clodia and
>> Clodia and mother of Julia, Julia, Julia, Caius, Marius and of course
>> little Julia. :-)
>>
>> They had ways of telling them apart but not that many.
>
Which IIRC is where they got the tale of St. Ursula and her
companions, the eleven thousand virgins. Read: St. Ursula and
her companion, St. Undecimilla ("Little Eleven") for _undecim
milia_, "eleven thousand."
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Brian M. Scott
(Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in <news:HyAsJ...@kithrup.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <Xns94F4DA26...@130.133.1.4>,
> Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
>>I heard that they used numbers: Julia Primera, Julia Seconda, etc.
> Which IIRC is where they got the tale of St. Ursula and her
> companions, the eleven thousand virgins. Read: St. Ursula and
> her companion, St. Undecimilla ("Little Eleven") for _undecim
> milia_, "eleven thousand."
Clever; I hadn't seen that version before. Farmer's Oxford
Dictionary of Saints suggests that in the 9th or 10th
century 'XI MV', intended to be expanded as <undecim
martyres virgines> 'eleven virgin martyrs', was improperly
expanded to <undecim milia virgines> 'eleven thousand
virgins'.
Brian
David Friedman
mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote:
> http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/theworld.asp
>
> will lead you to a lot of stuff. But be sure to double check it with
> other sources; I'm not sure how reliable it is.
For my purposes, at least, historically reliable isn't the issue--they
don't even have a listing for Kaerlia, where most of my WIS is set,
possibly because it doesn't exist. They do have lots of names I can look
through for ones that sound right. Thanks.
--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com
Eric Jarvis
No. It's a one of my best friends thing...though derived from Marie Louise
in that particular case.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
David Langford
wrote:
[On numbered Roman children]
>Which IIRC is where they got the tale of St. Ursula and her
>companions, the eleven thousand virgins. Read: St. Ursula and
>her companion, St. Undecimilla ("Little Eleven") for _undecim
>milia_, "eleven thousand."
Isaac Disraeli gives this version (attributed to "Father Sirmond") under
"Literary Blunders" in his =Curiosities of Literature=. Which, along with
his =Miscellanies=, is a wonderful 19th-century jumble of useless
information and misinformation, in which idle writers can waste endless
time while finding interesting twiddly bits. I bet Terry P. has copies.
Dave
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/
Latest book: =Different Kinds of Darkness= (collection, Cosmos, 2004)
Mary Gentle
Yeah, I've mostly used it to give me names which I then check elsewhere
(since finding the 'sounds right' name is usually the most difficult part
for me). I'm glad to find it's as dodgy as I suspected it might be...
Mary Gentle
(Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
> On Tue, 25 May 2004 20:54 +0100 (BST), Mary Gentle wrote:
>
> > In article <13094pigj7vuo.f...@40tude.net>,
> > AnnaU...@iol.ie (Anna Mazzoldi) wrote:
> >>
> >> ...or just very common personal names that can't be mangled. Like
> > Anna, >for
> >> a random example ;-). At one point, there were 3 of us in my class.
> > We >got
> >> called by surname (or, most often, name-and-surname) when confusion
> > was
> >> possible.
> >
> > Ha! Putting myself back into secondary school frame of mind -- never
> > a long trip :) -- that would have been 'Anne', 'Anna', and 'Annie',
> > just about instantly.
>
> Yep. But it doesn't work in Italian. The only available form of Anna in
> Italian is Anna...
How very unimaginative!
But do you mean that people never made up non-existent versions of
existing names to get round that problem?
Irina Rempt
> On Tue, 25 May 2004 20:54 +0100 (BST) mary_...@cix.co.uk
> (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> <news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> [...]
>
>> http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/theworld.asp
>
>> will lead you to a lot of stuff. But be sure to double check it with
>> other sources; I'm not sure how reliable it is.
>
> Abominable. The 'Celtic', 'Anglo-Saxon', and 'Teutonic'
> lists contain large amounts of crap.
So does the 'Dutch' list. I mean, 'Dwight' is on it, hardly a Dutch
name, and 'Gustaafa', technically a correct feminine formation from
'Gustaaf' but it just doesn't occur, and dozens (if not hundreds) of
*really* Dutch names aren't on it at all. I could do a better list for
them (not that I have the ambition to) in ten minutes without a
reference book by listing the names of people I know and deleting the
obviously foreign ones.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 23-Mar-2004
Stuart Houghton
>
> http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/theworld.asp
>
> will lead you to a lot of stuff. But be sure to double check it with
> other sources; I'm not sure how reliable it is.
>
Cool, ta. I've already spotted a couple of likely candidates. :)
>
--
Stuart Houghton
blog:http://rippingyarns.blogspot.com/
book reviews:http://asciimonkey.blogspot.com/
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> But do you mean that people never made up non-existent versions of
> existing names to get round that problem?
Well, Anna Magnani was known affectionately as, if I'm not mistaken,
"Nannarella"
I'd rather do without, myself.
Stuart Houghton
> mary_...@cix.co.uk (Mary Gentle) wrote in
> news:memo.2004052...@roxanne.morgan.ntlworld.com:
>
>
>>
>> http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/theworld.asp
>>
>> will lead you to a lot of stuff. But be sure to double check it with
>> other sources; I'm not sure how reliable it is.
>>
>
> Cool, ta. I've already spotted a couple of likely candidates. :)
>
>>
>
...which I will now be triple checking, based on Brian & Irina's comments
:-)
Stuart Houghton
>>
>>I heard that they used numbers: Julia Primera, Julia Seconda, etc.
>
A friend of mine has at least four Julia's in her circle of friends and has
taken to referring to them as J1, J2, etc.
The problem with this is that all the J's think they are J1...
Catja Pafort
> Not to mention what's the Gothic for 'cuchie-coo'.
However, it might be appropriate to adopt what German mothers say to
their babies when they tickle them:
'kille-kille-kille'
<g,d&r>
Catja
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 25 May 2004 17:24:48 +0200, ada...@spamcop.net (Anna
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>Anna Mazzoldi <AnnaU...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>> ...or just very common personal names that can't be mangled. Like
>> Anna, for a random example ;-). At one point, there were 3 of us
>> in my class. We got called by surname (or, most often,
>> name-and-surname) when confusion was possible. (Second names are
>> also much less common in Italy than in Ireland or the UK, thus
>> removing another handy trick... of the 3 Annas, for example, none
>> had a second name.)
>
>That's strange: in my class at elementary school, I was the _only_
>one without a second name, and suffered somewhat of the lack. Though
>I was glad not to be called Serenella Reginetta Genoveffa Celestina
>as one unfortunate soul at my high-school...
And, to go to the other extreme, there was a fad in the Southeast USA
in the 1930's of giving boys initials, rather than names. The father
of one of my high-school friends was named L. D. Kennedy; the L and D
didn't actually stand for anything.
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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
My church has baby dedication ceremonies every few weeks. The
parents and the babies (typically two or three months old) are shown
to the congregation, the parents promise to raise their child in the
Christian faith, and the congregation promises to help them. Our
pastor usually gives the meaning of the baby's first and middle
names. The etymology tends to be very dubious, such as "Cooper"
being translated as "brave and faithful one" when it really means
"barrel maker". He says that the parents supply the translation.
There must be some very misleading baby-name books on the market.
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Chris Dollin
> In article <1geawe3.449zgu1gh8ydzN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>
>> Mary Gentle <mary_...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > Under those circumstances, does somebody get stuck with the
>> > diminutive (if
>> > there is one)? Or do they just end up permanently being called
>> > "I-mean-
>> > Alessandra-in-Editorial-not=Publicity" or something along those lines?
>>
>> Well, the two permanent Alessandra are called Ale and Ale-Zorzi
>> respectively, when there is any possibility of confusion; of the two
>> Tommies, one was an intern, and he tended to work downstairs while the
>> other, permanent, Tommy worked upstairs...
>
> Ah, right. That's pretty much the way it would work in the UK...
I worked in an office which had three Chriss and three Andrews.
The Ansdrews were disambiguated, if I recall correctly, by being Andrew,
Andy, and Ange.
THe Chriss were disambiguated by whatever method was handy, eg Mr Price,
Mr Dollin, Mr (drat, his surname has escaped me), or sometimes by using
my Loglan-based name (kers). Etc.
We nearly hired a second Gareth Williams.
--
Hedgehog
C FAQ's at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/comp/comp.lang.c.html
http://www.electric-hedgehog.net/reviews/2003-03-merlin-conspiracy.html
Dan Goodman
news:2447473.6...@calcifer.valdyas.org:
> On Tuesday 25 May 2004 22:18 Brian M. Scott (b.s...@csuohio.edu)
wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 25 May 2004 20:54 +0100 (BST) mary_...@cix.co.uk
>> (Mary Gentle) wrote in
>>
>>> http://www.babyzone.com/babynames/theworld.asp
>>
>>> will lead you to a lot of stuff. But be sure to double check it with
>>> other sources; I'm not sure how reliable it is.
>>
>> Abominable. The 'Celtic', 'Anglo-Saxon', and 'Teutonic'
>> lists contain large amounts of crap.
>
> So does the 'Dutch' list. I mean, 'Dwight' is on it, hardly a Dutch
> name, and 'Gustaafa', technically a correct feminine formation from
> 'Gustaaf' but it just doesn't occur, and dozens (if not hundreds) of
> *really* Dutch names aren't on it at all. I could do a better list for
> them (not that I have the ambition to) in ten minutes without a
> reference book by listing the names of people I know and deleting the
> obviously foreign ones.
I could make a reasonable start by combing genealogical records from the
area where I grew up -- in what used to be New Netherlands. However,
some of the "Dutch" settlers were francophone Belgians from Germany. And
the genuinely Dutch names probably include a few which have been rare for
several hundred years, and many whose spellings have changed.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Irina Rempt
wrote:
> We nearly hired a second Gareth Williams.
A friend of mine, called Jan <very common Dutch surname>, works in an
office where there are three of them. I once sent a mail message about
something church-music-related to the wrong Jan, who got very confused
and forwarded it to the *other* wrong Jan, who sent it back to me,
while the right Jan was anxiously mailing me where his message was,
because he needed it to meet a deadline.
Mary Anne Stout
>
>
> And, to go to the other extreme, there was a fad in the Southeast USA
> in the 1930's of giving boys initials, rather than names. The father
> of one of my high-school friends was named L. D. Kennedy; the L and D
> didn't actually stand for anything.
>
>
Even more extreme, E.B. Jewell gave himself his initials when he started
school (c.1920) because (or so my relatives say) his parents just called
him "Boy."
--
Mary Anne in Kentucky
sharkey
>
> The Ansdrews were disambiguated [...]
A typo which raises an issue: is the plural of Mary-Anne
Mary-Annes or Marys-Anne?
-----sharks