Music for Medieval audience?

[Jymesion]

My protag is passing himself off as from a land very far away. They've
seen that his tools and devices are strange and wonderful (ship with
no sails, shotgun, washing machine, etc.).

He introduced them to thumb pianos to pave the way to hand-cranked
music boxes. I'm missing an intermediate step, but he now shows them a
great hulking open-framework machine which actually has an mp3 player
hidden in it.

I'm wondering what song to play first. My natural inclination is to go
with "Ghost Riders in the Sky" because it has a religious message. I
could also see "Katyusha" because of its simple melody and universal
message.

Dirges, chants, etc. are out because such things have deep roots and
the locals might recognize them and wonder why someone from so far
away knows their music (explaining the language was tricky enough).

Any ideas?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

"Amazing Grace" would seem a much better choice than the creepy, and
American-West-Centric, Ghost Riders.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ejjom8dgj60uu13hd...@4ax.com>,

For a MEDIEVAL audience?

He'd better start off with the oldest music he can find, which
will still be much later than what his audience is used to.

Consider how, when Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_ was premiered
in 1912, the audience rioted. And that a generation or so later,
someone commented on a performance of the piece, "They are
listening to this not-quite-new atrocity as if it were by someone
dead, like Brahms."

And when Monteverdi started writing early Baroque music, a critic
lambasted him for breaking all the established rules of music.
(I once asked a musically-literate friend, "So what's the
difference between Renaissance and Baroque music?" and he said,
"In Renaissance music the cantus firmus is in the tenor line, and
in Baroque it's in the bass.")

But trying modern ballads on a medieval audience will get the
effect my mother exhibited when we went to see _Yellow Submarine_
together: "How can you listen to that horrible noise?" And I'm
not a rock fan At All.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Jymesion]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:32:11 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <ejjom8dgj60uu13hd...@4ax.com>,
>Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:
>>I'm wondering what song to play first. My natural inclination is to go
>>with "Ghost Riders in the Sky" because it has a religious message. I
>>could also see "Katyusha" because of its simple melody and universal
>>message.

>>Any ideas?
>
>For a MEDIEVAL audience?
>
>He'd better start off with the oldest music he can find, which
>will still be much later than what his audience is used to.

I should have explained -- he doesn't need for them to like it, just
recognize it as music and for the king and the bishop to have no
reason to ban it.

He wants it because he likes having background music, and he's going
to be spending a lot of time in a building ashore.

My thought is that the bishop will, perhaps grudgingly, approve of any
music with a message of morality.

[Jymesion]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:40:12 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

> "Amazing Grace" would seem a much better choice than the creepy, and
>American-West-Centric, Ghost Riders.

I'm leery of anything that can reasonably be sung a cappella because
the bishop may be afraid the people might pick it up.

[Jymesion]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:18:42 -0600, Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com>
wrote:

I should note that by 'audience,' I meant an audience with the king,
with the whole court in attendance (but except for the bishop, they're
inconsequential).

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:49:38 -0600, Jymesion
<nore...@jymes.com> wrote in
<news:ookpm8d6ikv3nb9sf...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:

[...]

> My thought is that the bishop will, perhaps grudgingly,
> approve of any music with a message of morality.

Music does not in general have messages. The *words* to
*songs* may, but that's another matter. And the words to
any modern song are going to be completely incomprehensible
anyway.

Since he appears in conjunction with the king, your bishop
ought probably to be an archbishop. Why are you worried
about his attitude?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

There's virtually nothing that could NOT be sung a capella that would
also meet the requirements of being recognized as music. Note Dorothy's
comments upthread; people literally did not recognize particular things
as music when the changes were, to our modern ears, virtually
UNHEARABLE. Anything from the modern era will probably sound like
nothing but discordant noise to them, unless one or both of your key
people happens to be a *real* neophile.

[Drakhoran]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 23:22:48 -0600, Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:

>
>I should note that by 'audience,' I meant an audience with the king,
>with the whole court in attendance (but except for the bishop, they're
>inconsequential).

"There are simply too many notes." - Josph II, Holy Roman Emperor.

[Jymesion]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:46:00 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:49:38 -0600, Jymesion
><nore...@jymes.com> wrote in
><news:ookpm8d6ikv3nb9sf...@4ax.com> in
>rec.arts.sf.composition:

>> My thought is that the bishop will, perhaps grudgingly,
>> approve of any music with a message of morality.
>
>Music does not in general have messages. The *words* to
>*songs* may, but that's another matter. And the words to
>any modern song are going to be completely incomprehensible
>anyway.

Thanks! I just had the thought I should have a line or two about the
necessity of translation so no one will think it might be evil
invocations.

But the songs are in the appropriate language. One agency reg he hates
is a yearly total immersion -- agents for a specific area/period must
spend a week together speaking only their target language. This
includes nightly karaoke sessions which are recorded for analysis.
(Because of his range of periods, he must attend five a year.)

>Since he appears in conjunction with the king, your bishop
>ought probably to be an archbishop.

I know it's a little off, but I don't see a way around it without
complicating things.

I think it was natural that a priest was present when he came ashore
the first time (huge ship appears in the night, LST-like boat comes
out of it at dawn -- the local nobles, priest, and braver residents
congregate at the point where it lands). The priest sent a message to
his bishop.

My thinking: A bishop would probably be the closest higher authority,
and I'm not sure anyone higher would quickly come because of a message
from a village priest.

The archbishop was present when the protag had his first audience with
the king, but only as furniture -- I'd have to go back and check, but
I think the only interaction mentioned is the bishop whispering
something to the archbishop, and later the archbishop nods to the
bishop, at which point the bishop steps forward to give a speech.

I'd rather not make the archbishop a full-fledged character because:
1) I already have a lot of characters (a problem when dealing with the
protag's life in four worlds)
2) It's a lot for a little -- most of his interaction is going to be
with the local authority, and the majority is matters too unimportant
to bother an archbishop
3) The priest is awestruck and rather wishy-washy except in matters
which clearly violate his faith. The bishop is hard-nosed but open to
subtle, if lavish, bribes. I don't know how to paint an archbishop in
that setting.

> Why are you worried about his attitude?

He's trying very hard to avoid problems.

Its impossible for him to take the ship to another world, and he'd
hate to have to spend all of his time on the ship, so having the
approval of local authorities is important.

[Gerry Quinn]

In article <ejjom8dgj60uu13hd...@4ax.com>,
nore...@jymes.com says...

I'd guess music from traditional ballads and suchlike would be
accessible to most listeners.

Language changes faster than music. Modern English would seem strange
to medieval audiences.

- Gerry Quinn

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:02:55 -0600, Jymesion
<nore...@jymes.com> wrote in
<news:e2crm8pipqunl885v...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:

> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:46:00 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:49:38 -0600, Jymesion
>><nore...@jymes.com> wrote in
>><news:ookpm8d6ikv3nb9sf...@4ax.com> in
>>rec.arts.sf.composition:

>>> My thought is that the bishop will, perhaps grudgingly,
>>> approve of any music with a message of morality.

>>Music does not in general have messages. The *words* to
>>*songs* may, but that's another matter. And the words to
>>any modern song are going to be completely incomprehensible
>>anyway.

> Thanks! I just had the thought I should have a line or two
> about the necessity of translation so no one will think
> it might be evil invocations.

> But the songs are in the appropriate language. One agency
> reg he hates is a yearly total immersion -- agents for a
> specific area/period must spend a week together speaking
> only their target language. This includes nightly karaoke
> sessions which are recorded for analysis. (Because of his
> range of periods, he must attend five a year.)

I could buy that if they were singing songs appropriate to
the area and period, but it seems very unlikely that he'd
have access to recordings of his own popular music in a
translation suitable for the time and place.

>> Since he appears in conjunction with the king, your
>> bishop ought probably to be an archbishop.

> I know it's a little off, but I don't see a way around it
> without complicating things.

> I think it was natural that a priest was present when he
> came ashore the first time (huge ship appears in the
> night, LST-like boat comes out of it at dawn -- the local
> nobles, priest, and braver residents congregate at the
> point where it lands). The priest sent a message to his
> bishop.

I don't know enough about the setting to point to much in
the way of specifics, but the impression that I get from
what you've said in this thread just doesn't match any
medieval setting that I know, and I used to read a lot of
medieval social history. If it's anywhere near the right
time and place, you should take a look at Ian Mortimer, _The
Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for
Visitors to the Fourteenth Century_,

<http://www.amazon.com/Time-Travelers-Guide-Medieval-England/dp/1439112908>.

[...]

>> Why are you worried about his attitude?

> He's trying very hard to avoid problems.

Oh, I understand that. It's your emphasis on the problems
posed by the church that bothers me: it seems excessive.

> Its impossible for him to take the ship to another world,
> and he'd hate to have to spend all of his time on the
> ship, so having the approval of local authorities is
> important.

Depending on just what he's doing, the realistic options, I
think, are not getting it in a rather final way, being taken
under someone's control, or, if he's able to defend himself,
being forced to hole up on his ship. But I'll drop out
here; I don't think that I can suspend disbelief enough at
this point to be useful.

Brian

[Jymesion]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:27:28 +0100, Gerry Quinn <ger...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>In article <ejjom8dgj60uu13hd...@4ax.com>,
>nore...@jymes.com says...

>> He introduced them to thumb pianos to pave the way to hand-cranked
>> music boxes. I'm missing an intermediate step, but he now shows them a
>> great hulking open-framework machine which actually has an mp3 player
>> hidden in it.
>

>Language changes faster than music. Modern English would seem strange
>to medieval audiences.

It's in their language. His legitimate employment is for an agency
that requires travelers to do 'total immersion' weeks where they live
together speaking only the native language. The protag records the
songs on karaoke nights.

[Jymesion]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 03:05:21 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:02:55 -0600, Jymesion
><nore...@jymes.com> wrote in
><news:e2crm8pipqunl885v...@4ax.com> in
>rec.arts.sf.composition:
>>

>> One agency
>> reg he hates is a yearly total immersion -- agents for a
>> specific area/period must spend a week together speaking
>> only their target language. This includes nightly karaoke
>> sessions which are recorded for analysis. (Because of his
>> range of periods, he must attend five a year.)
>
>I could buy that if they were singing songs appropriate to
>the area and period, but it seems very unlikely that he'd
>have access to recordings of his own popular music in a
>translation suitable for the time and place.

Thanks! I'll have to include a line about that.

I see it as part of the immersion experience, having to translate on
the fly. We had to do it when I learned a language that way in the
1970s. It'd be easier for them since it's mostly the same words; only
the pronunciation is different.

>I don't know enough about the setting to point to much in
>the way of specifics, but the impression that I get from
>what you've said in this thread just doesn't match any
>medieval setting that I know

The difference is probably that he's not trying to fit in. He has to
work hard to pass himself off as one of them when on the job, but this
is his free time when he doesn't care about staying in period. I
suspect (although it's not specifically in the text) he finds a
perverse joy in tweaking the noses of those who make his life
miserable when he's on duty.

>> He's trying very hard to avoid problems.
>
>Oh, I understand that. It's your emphasis on the problems
>posed by the church that bothers me: it seems excessive.

It may be, but it goes to character. If he moved to Detroit, he'd want
to pacify the mayor and city council, and the leaders of the gangs in
the surrounding neighborhoods.

Thanks!

[Gerry Quinn]

In article <ndj3n8d45sk7122nr...@4ax.com>,
nore...@jymes.com says...

He likes to listen to karaoke!? Why doesn't he just sing while he
works?

- Gerry Quinn

[Jymesion]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:38:07 +0100, Gerry Quinn <ger...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>In article <ndj3n8d45sk7122nr...@4ax.com>,
>nore...@jymes.com says...

>> The protag records the songs on karaoke nights.
>
>He likes to listen to karaoke!? Why doesn't he just sing while he
>works?

It's not that he likes the stuff -- that's the only translations he
has available.

It's not explicitly in the text, but he's aware of the danger of being
declared a heretic. I think it's natural he'd want to introduce his
music in their language to avoid suspicion that it's an invocation or
other heretical material.

The more I get into this, though, the more complicated it's becoming,
having to work in justifications and motives.

I strongly suspect at the moment this chapter is going into the
recycle bin.

[Charlton Wilbur]

>>>>> "J" == Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> writes:

J> Dirges, chants, etc. are out because such things have deep roots
J> and the locals might recognize them and wonder why someone from
J> so far away knows their music (explaining the language was tricky
J> enough).

J> Any ideas?

Be as vague as possible, and describe the music based on the reactions
of the listeners, letting the readers fill in the details as they will.
It's clear from the question -- which is so far off that it's not even
wrong -- that you are far from an expert in music; if you try to get
technical, you will make it so that anyone with a reasonable knowledge
of medieval or Renaissance music will be kicked out of the fiction so
hard that Mr Book will likely meet Mr Wall.

Your fiction may have sufficient other charms to counteract this -- the
way Doctor Who's "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" kicks me out
of the fiction with a WTF? moment but then I dive back in -- but that's
not the way to bet.

Charlton






--
Charlton Wilbur
cwi...@chromatico.net

[kevi...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, April 15, 2013 2:18:49 PM UTC-4, Jymesion wrote:
> Dirges, chants, etc. are out because such things have deep roots and
>
> the locals might recognize them and wonder why someone from so far
>
> away knows their music (explaining the language was tricky enough).
>
>
>
> Any ideas?

The Medieval period covered several centuries, and then, as now, there was a lot of variation through the years, plus regional variations as well. Could you narrow it down some?

The problem is that you want it to be unfamiliar but not completely alien. _Fairest Lord Jesus_ would be out, as some might recognized the tune. Ditto _Be Thou My Vision,_ which goes back to the 6th Century. You might consider listening to known songs from that period, and finding a modern counterpart in rhythm and tone. _Ghostriders in the Sky_ would be alien, indeed, perhaps too much so as some have pointed out.

Other considerations are religious belief and politics. _Ghostriders in the Sky_ might label the protagonist as a heretic, but so could _It is Well With My Soul._ OTOH, if the protagonist played _Poor Wayfaring Stranger_ or _Farther Along,_ it could be seen as a complaint against the hospitality he's received.

Something else to think about is copyright, especially if you're including lyrics. Something as simple as _Happy Birthday To You_ is protected by copyright. In general, works prior to 1923 are in public domain, but be careful.

[Jacey Bedford]

In message <ef2a5876-4243-4caa...@googlegroups.com>,
kevi...@yahoo.com writes

>In general, works prior to 1923 are in public domain, but be careful.

Not always in the UK where copyright exists until 70 years after the
death of the creator. When the work was created doesn't enter into it.

Something created in 1923 by a 23 year old who lived to be 90 will be in
copyright until 2060.

Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford

[David Friedman]

In article <mA7AQ82Y...@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,

I don't think copyright applies retroactively or cross alternate
universe, which would see to be the relevant questions here, if I
correctly understand the initial question.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx

[kevi...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, April 21, 2013 6:34:06 PM UTC-4, David Friedman wrote:
> I don't think copyright applies retroactively or cross alternate
>
> universe, which would see to be the relevant questions here, if I
>
> correctly understand the initial question.

However, it applies very much our own, where the manuscript exists.

[Jymesion]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 22:08:07 -0400, Charlton Wilbur
<cwi...@chromatico.net> wrote:

>>>>>> "J" == Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> writes:
>
> J> Dirges, chants, etc. are out because such things have deep roots
> J> and the locals might recognize them and wonder why someone from
> J> so far away knows their music (explaining the language was tricky
> J> enough).
>
> J> Any ideas?
>

> you are far from an expert in music

Quite definitely!

My protag's thought processes are (no surprise) like mine -- some
things would be ruled out for reasons which might not have a
legitimate basis, and always erring on the side of caution.

[Jymesion]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 13:28:40 -0700 (PDT), kevi...@yahoo.com wrote:

>On Monday, April 15, 2013 2:18:49 PM UTC-4, Jymesion wrote:
>> Dirges, chants, etc. are out because such things have deep roots and
>> the locals might recognize them and wonder why someone from so far
>> away knows their music (explaining the language was tricky enough).

>The problem is that you want it to be unfamiliar but not completely alien.

Don't rule out being alien! :) The perverse side of his nature likes
the amount of shock and awe he can create by doing simple (to us)
things.

>Other considerations are religious belief and politics. _Ghostriders in
>the Sky_ might label the protagonist as a heretic, but so could _It is
>Well With My Soul._ OTOH, if the protagonist played _Poor Wayfaring
>Stranger_ or _Farther Along,_ it could be seen as a complaint against
>the hospitality he's received.

I tried a little experiment (as is my wont) -- I "became" a Medieval
bishop and listened to a wide variety of songs on YouTube. I found
questionable, or outright heretical, elements in absolutely
everything. *Sigh*

>Something else to think about is copyright, especially if you're including lyrics.

It's probable I'm not even going to mention the title. What's
important is that I know what it is so I can envision the scene. I've
found that the pacing of my writing changes subtly when I have
background music, so I want to play the chosen song when writing the
scene.

[Jymesion]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 15:34:06 -0700, David Friedman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:

>I don't think copyright applies retroactively or cross alternate
>universe,

I don't know . . . the RIAA is relentless!

[David Friedman]

In article <hi7bn8t6e8n90ghia...@4ax.com>,

Jymesion <nore...@jymes.com> wrote:

> >Something else to think about is copyright, especially if you're including
> >lyrics.
>
> It's probable I'm not even going to mention the title. What's
> important is that I know what it is so I can envision the scene. I've
> found that the pacing of my writing changes subtly when I have
> background music, so I want to play the chosen song when writing the
> scene.

Mentioning the title of a song doesn't violate anyone's copyright.
Quoting a line or two would almost certainly count as fair use. Quoting
the whole thing would arguably be infringement.

[kevi...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, April 22, 2013 4:07:12 PM UTC-4, David Friedman wrote:
> Mentioning the title of a song doesn't violate anyone's copyright.
>
> Quoting a line or two would almost certainly count as fair use. Quoting
>
> the whole thing would arguably be infringement.

Somewhat agree. Song title isn't infringement. Full lyrics, of course, is out. But in between is a fuzzy area. Poems and lyrics are so small that even a small portion could be considered violating fair use. It depends on how willing the copyright holder is to go to court.

That might sound unduly cautious, but I remember the suite against G. Harry Stine over allegedly plagerizing a cartoon. The suite was dropped, but Stine still had to pay his legal fees.

[ProtoWriter]

Some of this is covered in one or more Grantville gazette of the 1632
series of stories. The Uptimers music is not music, Handel's Messiah
breaks rules that are considered sacred.
But old Irish folk songs pass, Lutheran hymns written by Martin
himself pass unless in Catholic territory where they will get you
killed. And they were altering songs to become protest songs when
'translated'. Old Appalachian(spelling is ?) songs pass.

JS Bach is the peak of their music 50 years in their future, and
passes well. Beethoven is too much.


'Simple gifts' passes, I think.

Sean

[Shawn Wilson]

On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Jymesion <norepl...@jymes.com> wrote:

> Dirges, chants, etc. are out because such things have deep roots and
> the locals might recognize them and wonder why someone from so far
> away knows their music (explaining the language was tricky enough).
>

> Any ideas?


Think about modern music from foreign cultures today. Do you like
it? Or is it too strange to remotely enjoy? Sure, pop is pop, but
native Japanese music plays by entirely different rules than the
European descended music we are used to, and westerners rarely enjor
it.

Music qua music is not a thing. One man's music is another's mere
annoying noise.

As has already been pointed out 'The Rite of Spring' caused a riot at
its first public performance.

[Jymesion]

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 12:05:52 -0700 (PDT), Shawn Wilson
<ikono...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Apr 15, 11:18�am, Jymesion <norepl...@jymes.com> wrote:
>
>> Dirges, chants, etc. are out because such things have deep roots and
>> the locals might recognize them and wonder why someone from so far
>> away knows their music (explaining the language was tricky enough).

Thanks for the thoughts, but I've decided to drop that chapter.

It would have required numerous justifications in the narrative as
well as necessitating expansion of several previous scenes which I
didn't really like in the first place.

>Think about modern music from foreign cultures today. Do you like
>it? Or is it too strange to remotely enjoy?

It's not out of some personal virtue that I listen to a wide variety
-- I participate in a forum where many people post music videos, and
I'm constantly searching for the-same-but-different examples.

I've recently become a big fan of Ukranian/Russian folk songs (even
though I can't understand all the words), as well as Chinese and
Japanese traditional and pop. I'm noticing a lot of parallel rhythms
in Chinese and Celtic music.

[Charlton Wilbur]

>>>>> "SW" == Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> writes:

SW> As has already been pointed out 'The Rite of Spring' caused a
SW> riot at its first public performance.

....which has a lot more to do with French/Russian cultural politics of
the day and the subject matter of the ballet than it does with the
alleged alienness of the music -- which is shocking to modern ears
accustomed to nothing more adventurous than Beethoven's Ninth, but was
largely unremarkable in the context of contemporaneous French and
Russian art music.