The Perils of EFP
Rob Kerr
same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
I'm mainly asking because I feel that my _appreciation_ skills in the
genre are sorely lacking. That is to say, I read lots of stuff quite
happily in the knowledge that it may or may not be EFP, but I am
nonetheless enjoying it. And the problem (if problem it is) is
exacerbated in my own writing -- if I cannot tell if something I am
reading is EFP, how am I to tell if my own writing (which I am,
inevitably, closer to) is EFP?
As a subthread, is the anything in the extract below that might lead
you to think it will turn into EFP? It's the opening few paras of my
most recently completed short, which is actually an exploration of a
world I'm intending to use for a novel (but not the Sugar novel).
** extract begins **
The ruling classes of the City of Gates kept a close eye on all who
entered through some of the less-used entrances to their city. After
all, they reasoned, if someone was forced to enter through Tyrant's
Gate, they would want to know about it. So it was not without some
measure of concern that Kvorán approached the tall pillars that
ringed the city and defined the multitudinous entrances, which
themselves defined the essential character of those passing through.
He had considered the problem of entry for some days. Finally, he
had decided that the gate known as Cleric's Gate would be his first
approach. If that failed, his next attempt would be Magister's
Barbican. He hoped the powers that had created the gates of the
city would appraise his essential nature in a manner similar to how
he himself judged it: by his faith, and by his ability. Though
trying to anticipate the thoughts of the Ghyr, who had given rise to
races as disparate as those of men and the Eyeless, was possibly an
exercise in sheerest folly.
Nonetheless, he continued his approach, a slow descent to the road
that ringed the city, providing equal access to all the possible
entryways. Arriving from the lands to the west of the city, he
would first encounter Cripplegate, the unfortunately named. Next
around from that was Widow's Gate, and so on around the ringroad
until, about a third of the way around, and just in sight of the
coast, he would reach Cleric's Gate.
** extract ends **
Rob Kerr
--
"It's impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making
some other Englishman despise him."
-- G.B.S., "Pygmalion"
Bill Swears
This is just my take, but I think any of the tropes can become EFP,
depending on execution. The idea that the gates can judge a person's
sets and either admit or not, and that individual gates would look for
specific characteristics is new to me. Opening a story with an approach
to city gates isn't. You definitely are setting me up for a certain
type of story, and it isn't a type I normally read.
Bill
--
Ourdebate.com lifts free debate between writers and dilutes it with ads.
rec.arts.sf.composition is a USENET group, and can be accessed for free.
Ourdebate.com therefore sucks (the life from discourse),
and dribbles (deceit when integrity would have worked just as well).
Bob Throllop
Rob Kerr wrote:
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
>
> I'm mainly asking because I feel that my _appreciation_ skills in the
> genre are sorely lacking. That is to say, I read lots of stuff quite
> happily in the knowledge that it may or may not be EFP, but I am
> nonetheless enjoying it. And the problem (if problem it is) is
> exacerbated in my own writing -- if I cannot tell if something I am
> reading is EFP, how am I to tell if my own writing (which I am,
> inevitably, closer to) is EFP?
>
> As a subthread, is the anything in the extract below that might lead
> you to think it will turn into EFP? It's the opening few paras of my
> most recently completed short, which is actually an exploration of a
> world I'm intending to use for a novel (but not the Sugar novel).
>
>
> ** extract begins **
[...]
No, no, you're doing it all wrong. For starters, you're thinking too
much. If you're putting thought into why the story world is the way it
is, it's probably not EFP. In EFP, everyone already knows where the
Thieves' Guild is and how to order a bowl of stew at the tavern and how
many hit points it takes to kill an orc.
David Friedman
Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> The ruling classes of the City of Gates
Not relevant to your question, but I'm moderately sure there was a city
in the Islamic world with that name (or nickname). If it matters, I know
which story in what book contains the passage I'm thinking of--I might
be misremembering the name--and could check it pretty easily.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
R.L.
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
>
> I'm mainly asking because I feel that my _appreciation_ skills in the
> genre are sorely lacking. That is to say, I read lots of stuff quite
> happily in the knowledge that it may or may not be EFP, but I am
> nonetheless enjoying it. And the problem (if problem it is) is
> exacerbated in my own writing -- if I cannot tell if something I am
> reading is EFP, how am I to tell if my own writing (which I am,
> inevitably, closer to) is EFP?
>
> As a subthread, is the anything in the extract below that might lead
> you to think it will turn into EFP? It's the opening few paras of my
> most recently completed short, which is actually an exploration of a
> world I'm intending to use for a novel (but not the Sugar novel).
I'm not sure that EFP comes in shorts. :-)
I'm not much of a critter for this, as I rather like 'yardage' fiction --
Perry Mason, Nancy Drew, Tarzan -- which might be described as an 'extruded
product'. Not sure I've read much EFP; can't get through Brooks, Jordan,
Weis and Hickman....
> ** extract begins **
> The ruling classes of the City of Gates kept a close eye on all who
> entered through some of the less-used entrances to their city.
Could go either way.
> After
> all, they reasoned, if someone was forced to enter through Tyrant's
> Gate, they would want to know about it.
Good, perhaps a bit Prachetty but he's definitely not EFP.
> So it was not without some
> measure of concern that Kvorán approached the tall pillars that
> ringed the city and defined the multitudinous entrances,
Sounds a bit Lieberish. Today Lieber might sound like he's playing off EFP,
but I think the actual history was different.
> which
> themselves defined the essential character of those passing through.
With improved wording, I think this gets thoughtful enough to avoid EFP,
though it seems EFP-ishly serious.
>
> He had considered the problem of entry for some days. Finally, he
> had decided that the gate known as Cleric's Gate would be his first
> approach. If that failed, his next attempt would be Magister's
> Barbican. He hoped the powers that had created the gates of the
> city would appraise his essential nature in a manner similar to how
> he himself judged it: by his faith, and by his ability. Though
> trying to anticipate the thoughts of the Ghyr, who had given rise to
> races as disparate as those of men and the Eyeless, was possibly an
> exercise in sheerest folly.
Continuing Leiberish. Vance-ish?
You might be hitting a good lane here: the multitudes who like EFP can read
it as EFP; snobs who remember the Golden Age can snrch.
> Nonetheless, he continued his approach, a slow descent to the road
> that ringed the city, providing equal access to all the possible
> entryways. Arriving from the lands to the west of the city, he
> would first encounter Cripplegate, the unfortunately named. Next
> around from that was Widow's Gate, and so on around the ringroad
> until, about a third of the way around, and just in sight of the
> coast, he would reach Cleric's Gate.
> ** extract ends **
This seems definitely more Golden Age than EFP <says she who doesn't read
EFP.> :-)
R.L.
--
hardware problems, scanty access, typing fast
(and typoing fast, usually)
Bill Swears
> In article <Xns9835A0D7B80AF...@10.152.1.160>,
> Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The ruling classes of the City of Gates
>
> Not relevant to your question, but I'm moderately sure there was a city
> in the Islamic world with that name (or nickname). If it matters, I know
> which story in what book contains the passage I'm thinking of--I might
> be misremembering the name--and could check it pretty easily.
>
http://www.chennaionline.com/toursntravel/ontheroad/tourist.asp
Brian M. Scott
<news:Xns9835A0D7B80AF...@10.152.1.160> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP,
> definitions of same, but an absence of indicators that
> would allow one to recognise it in the wild. So, my
> question is, how does one recognise EFP -- and
> especially, that one is perpetrating it?
One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
[...]
> As a subthread, is the anything in the extract below that
> might lead you to think it will turn into EFP? [...]
Not particularly, no, and I quite like the idea.
> So it was not without some measure of concern that Kvorán
> approached the tall pillars that ringed the city and
> defined the multitudinous entrances, which themselves
> defined the essential character of those passing through.
Seems to me that the gates don't so much define essential
character as recognize and reveal it.
> He had considered the problem of entry for some days.
> Finally, he had decided that the gate known as Cleric's
> Gate
Why not just 'decided that Cleric's Gate'?
[...]
The style verges on the prolix; is this a deliberate choice?
Brian
Nicola Browne
news:Xns9835A0D7B80AF...@10.152.1.160
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
I think it's an interesting beginning and while the language
suggest some kind of medieval setting, and there are divisions
between races, it doesn't look like its necessarily going to descend
into
n volumes of mush : )I think the language is too complex and the set up
too unusual for it to go that way esily.
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Dan Goodman
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
Read Diana Wynne Jones's _The Tough Guide to Fantasyland_.
Or, without that book, ask yourself such questions as:
1) Do I have a party of adventurers whose composition would be
unremarkable in a role playing game?
2) Are my horses like those horses I have actually ridden?
3) Where does this city get its food?
4) Do my elves resemble standard RPG and fantasy-novel elves more than
they do the elves in folklore?
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Blog http://dsgood.googlepages.com
Rob Kerr
news:12fr91n...@corp.supernews.com:
> David Friedman wrote:
>> In article <Xns9835A0D7B80AF...@10.152.1.160>,
>> Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> The ruling classes of the City of Gates
>>
>> Not relevant to your question, but I'm moderately sure there was
>> a city in the Islamic world with that name (or nickname). If it
>> matters, I know which story in what book contains the passage I'm
>> thinking of--I might be misremembering the name--and could check
>> it pretty easily.
>>
> Aurangabad - City of Gates in India
>
> http://www.chennaionline.com/toursntravel/ontheroad/tourist.asp
>
Ooh, thanks for the info -- it honestly hadn't occurred to me that it
could be a real-life city name. I'm unsure whether it matters to
this particular setting, but is certainly something to keep in mind.
I hadn't yet gotten to the stage of Googling names (this is the
setting with the r-hachek names I posted from a few months back).
Rob Kerr
news:h0eu2kpmc8k8.2v9zs91ayw95$.d...@40tude.net:
> With improved wording, I think this gets thoughtful enough to
> avoid EFP, though it seems EFP-ishly serious.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Is it that EFP tends to take itself
seriously, considering questions of ultimate good and evil and whatnot?
Would you (pl.) consider that a pointer towards EFPishness?
Rob Kerr
$.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
> One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
> DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
>> So it was not without some measure of concern that Kvorán
>> approached the tall pillars that ringed the city and
>> defined the multitudinous entrances, which themselves
>> defined the essential character of those passing through.
>
> Seems to me that the gates don't so much define essential
> character as recognize and reveal it.
Yes, will fix that.
> The style verges on the prolix; is this a deliberate choice?
I think I naturally write long, and then sub down.
Rob Kerr
news:44fdb6f9$0$44185$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net:
> 1) Do I have a party of adventurers whose composition would be
> unremarkable in a role playing game?
Nope. At least, not in this one.
> 2) Are my horses like those horses I have actually ridden?
Having not ridden any horses, I couldn't comment. But I've hung
around horsey types enough to know what's possible and what verges on
Companion status.
> 3) Where does this city get its food?
Hmm. I have no idea. I know it's coastal, so there'll be a lot of
fishing. Other than that...the subject of more exploration, I feel.
> 4) Do my elves resemble standard RPG and fantasy-novel elves more
> than they do the elves in folklore?
No elves so far. Though, were I to introduce some, I would be more
likely to base them on Ireland's fair folk, people under the hill,
Tuatha de Danaan, or other set.
Mary K. Kuhner
Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>"R.L." <see...@no-spams.coms> wrote in
>news:h0eu2kpmc8k8.2v9zs91ayw95$.d...@40tude.net:
>> With improved wording, I think this gets thoughtful enough to
>> avoid EFP, though it seems EFP-ishly serious.
>I'm not sure what you mean here. Is it that EFP tends to take itself
>seriously, considering questions of ultimate good and evil and whatnot?
>Would you (pl.) consider that a pointer towards EFPishness?
I think "taking itself seriously" here is more a matter of tone than
content. EFP is seldom self-mocking or flippant; it may contain humor,
but it's not humorous itself. At worst, it can come across as
painfully earnest. (The _Tough Guide_ says--and this is a point
on which I think it's accurate--that only a few character types
are allowed to crack jokes. I'd add, they don't crack jokes at
the expense of the narrative voice.)
An earnest tone is too widespread to be a marker for EFP, but a mocking
or attitudinal or edgy tone is definitely a marker for non-EFP.
I like your gated city and your protagonist, but for me there are a
lot of small hang-ups in the prose.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Brian M. Scott
<rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote in
<news:Xns9835C1A487DEE...@10.152.1.160> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
> $.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
[...]
>> The style verges on the prolix; is this a deliberate choice?
> I think I naturally write long, and then sub down.
Fair enough. I asked because I share Mary K.'s reaction to
the prose; it's just a bit off, though I find it difficult
to say exactly what bothers me about it. It ought to ooze
nicely along like a stream of honey, and instead it clunks
and heffalumps (heffalimps?) a bit.
Brian
Mary K. Kuhner
Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>As a subthread, is the anything in the extract below that might lead
>you to think it will turn into EFP? It's the opening few paras of my
>most recently completed short, which is actually an exploration of a
>world I'm intending to use for a novel (but not the Sugar novel).
The only thing that makes me uneasy is the prolix narrative voice.
But I'm not sure it's making me think EFP; it's just making me
uneasy--is there going to be room in a short story for this degree
of wordiness, plus a satisfying plot and characters?
Okay, one other unease: "Cleric" is so strongly associated with
D&D for some readers that it may give a wrong impression. (It
means "priest" in that context.) But it's only one word, and
that impression could easily be dispelled by the rest.
Bracketing things that could be dropped, just to see how it
sounds to you.
>The ruling classes of the City of Gates kept a close eye on all who
>entered through [some of] the less-used entrances to their city. After
>all, [they reasoned,] if someone was forced to enter through Tyrant's
>Gate, they would want to know about it. So it was not without some
>measure of concern that Kvorán approached the tall pillars that
>ringed the city and defined the multitudinous entrances, which
>themselves defined the essential character of those passing through.
>He had considered the problem of entry for some days. Finally, he
>had decided that [the gate known as] Cleric's Gate would be his first
>approach. If that failed, his next attempt would be Magister's
>Barbican. He hoped the powers that had created the gates [of the
>city] would appraise his essential nature *as* [in a manner similar to how]
>he himself judged it: by his faith, and by his ability. Though
>trying to anticipate the thoughts of the Ghyr, who had given rise to
>races as disparate as [those of] men and the Eyeless, was [possibly] an
>exercise in sheerest folly.
>[Nonetheless,] he continued his [approach, a] slow descent to the road
>that ringed the city, providing equal access to all the possible
>entryways. Arriving from the [lands to the] west [of the city], he
>would first encounter Cripplegate, the unfortunately named. Next
>[around from that] was Widow's Gate, and so on around the ringroad
>until, about a third of the way around, and just in sight of the
>coast, he would reach Cleric's Gate.
Maybe you need to keep some of those, for tone. I'm inclined
to think you don't need all of them.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
David Friedman
Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
> $.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
>
> > One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
> > DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
>
> Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
> 'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
> creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
Part of the question is what historical time period the fictional world
is based on. Do you, for instance, have evidence of dishes corresponding
to a generic modern stew in Ireland before 1500? I don't--nor, I think,
for anywhere in France or England.
To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
J.Pascal
Rob Kerr wrote:
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
>
> I'm mainly asking because I feel that my _appreciation_ skills in the
> genre are sorely lacking. That is to say, I read lots of stuff quite
> happily in the knowledge that it may or may not be EFP, but I am
> nonetheless enjoying it. And the problem (if problem it is) is
> exacerbated in my own writing -- if I cannot tell if something I am
> reading is EFP, how am I to tell if my own writing (which I am,
> inevitably, closer to) is EFP?
There's a market for EFP. If you can do it well it would be sort
of silly to do something else.
-Julie
Marilee J. Layman
Sorry, I got this far and it's not something I'd read. That doesn't
necessarily make it EFP, but it's fairly common fantasy trope.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/
Dan Goodman
> "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in
>
> > 1) Do I have a party of adventurers whose composition would be
> > unremarkable in a role playing game?
>
> Nope. At least, not in this one.
>
> > 2) Are my horses like those horses I have actually ridden?
>
> Having not ridden any horses, I couldn't comment. But I've hung
> around horsey types enough to know what's possible and what verges on
> Companion status.
Good. But it might be useful to try a bit of horseback riding. And
you might want to have a horsey friend check your story for horsey
errors.
>
> > 3) Where does this city get its food?
>
> Hmm. I have no idea. I know it's coastal, so there'll be a lot of
> fishing. Other than that...the subject of more exploration, I feel.
>
>
> > 4) Do my elves resemble standard RPG and fantasy-novel elves more
> > than they do the elves in folklore?
>
> No elves so far. Though, were I to introduce some, I would be more
> likely to base them on Ireland's fair folk, people under the hill,
> Tuatha de Danaan, or other set.
Aka The Gentry, aka Them.
JJ Karhu
<rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
>same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
>it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
>and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
Once you've published the fourth novel in the same world, with no end
in sight?
>
>** extract begins **
>The ruling classes of the City of Gates kept a close eye on all who
>entered through some of the less-used entrances to their city. After
>all, they reasoned, if someone was forced to enter through Tyrant's
Forced by what? I think this should be mentioned...
>Gate, they would want to know about it. So it was not without some
>measure of concern that Kvorán approached the tall pillars that
>ringed the city and defined the multitudinous entrances, which
>themselves defined the essential character of those passing through.
>
>He had considered the problem of entry for some days. Finally, he
>had decided that the gate known as Cleric's Gate would be his first
>approach. If that failed, his next attempt would be Magister's
>Barbican. He hoped the powers that had created the gates of the
>city would appraise his essential nature in a manner similar to how
>he himself judged it: by his faith, and by his ability. Though
>trying to anticipate the thoughts of the Ghyr, who had given rise to
>races as disparate as those of men and the Eyeless, was possibly an
>exercise in sheerest folly.
A bit like donning a hat in Hogwarts, then ;)
>Nonetheless, he continued his approach, a slow descent to the road
>that ringed the city, providing equal access to all the possible
>entryways. Arriving from the lands to the west of the city, he
>would first encounter Cripplegate, the unfortunately named. Next
>around from that was Widow's Gate, and so on around the ringroad
>until, about a third of the way around, and just in sight of the
>coast, he would reach Cleric's Gate.
Apparently one can try to enter through as many gates as one likes,
but when one finally gets through a gate, that gate "brands" the
person for ever.
I like that. As long as Kvorán doesn't enter through the gate of The
Ultimate Badassery.
(Oh well, perhaps he enters through the Tyrant's Gate.)
// JJ
S. Palmer
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP
When a book and a frozen turkey fall out of your freezer at the same
time, and you can dodge either one but not both, EFP is when you choose
to let the turkey hit your foot.
> and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
um, when you're just finishing up a marathon three-hour writing session
and feel moderately pleased with the 13,000 words you just cranked out?
Actually, I'd recommend playing with an extruder, if you can. With a
clay extruder (and you can get them for playdoh), you just mash
everything into the cavity willy-nilly without a care, pump the handle a
couple of times, and this uniform blorp of clay poops out the other end
at a uniform pace. If you get really into it, you can just keep lumping
more and more clay in there and end up with a really loooooong uniform
clay poop with only minimally more effort.
The analogy being, that it's pretty easy to take all the very standard
fantasy elements and slap together a story out of them. Lost princes
raised on farms, magic rings, evil stepmothers, etc., are really just
like playdoh. But if you want something really unique that actually does
something new, tells a new story, uses the elements in a non-traditional
way, you have to get your hands dirty and shape it and work it yourself,
and that takes time and thought. I suspect the very fact you're thinking
about this makes it less likely you're writing EFP.
Or at least, that's my take on it. I made effort a few years back to
intentionally write an EFP (which I did, 80k or so before I got sick of
it and chucked it in a drawer), and it was a very informative and
entertaining exercise.
-Suzanne
R.L.
> In article <Xns9835C11365CEE...@10.152.1.160>,
> Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>>"R.L." <see...@no-spams.coms> wrote in
>>news:h0eu2kpmc8k8.2v9zs91ayw95$.d...@40tude.net:
>
>>> With improved wording, I think this gets thoughtful enough to
>>> avoid EFP, though it seems EFP-ishly serious.
>
>>I'm not sure what you mean here. Is it that EFP tends to take itself
>>seriously, considering questions of ultimate good and evil and whatnot?
>>Would you (pl.) consider that a pointer towards EFPishness?
I didn't say 'taking itself seriously'. I agree pretty much with what Mary
K is saying below. One mark of EFP sfaik is that the situations are always
very serious and rather gloomy, and the characters take them that way, etc.
> I think "taking itself seriously" here is more a matter of tone than
> content. EFP is seldom self-mocking or flippant; it may contain humor,
> but it's not humorous itself. At worst, it can come across as
> painfully earnest. (The _Tough Guide_ says--and this is a point
> on which I think it's accurate--that only a few character types
> are allowed to crack jokes. I'd add, they don't crack jokes at
> the expense of the narrative voice.)
Bingo...
> An earnest tone is too widespread to be a marker for EFP, but a mocking
> or attitudinal or edgy tone is definitely a marker for non-EFP.
Yes. My impression, perhaps hasty, was that the mocking voice was the omni
narrator, not the pv character's thoughts. Though that may be unfair, if he
was considering all this in choosing a gate. In that case, I think it needs
tweaking to make that more clear.
>
> I like your gated city and your protagonist, but for me there are a
> lot of small hang-ups in the prose.
Aw, that can be fixed on rewrite. :-)
R.L.
Brian M. Scott
<see...@no-spams.coms> wrote in
<news:3t4qs54sfw8o.7...@40tude.net> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
> My impression, perhaps hasty, was that the mocking voice
> was the omni narrator, not the pv character's thoughts. [...]
What mocking voice? The voice is almost painfully serious
where it isn't simply descriptive; mockery has an element of
humor, albeit malicious.
Brian
R.L.
> In article <Xns9835A0D7B80AF...@10.152.1.160>,
> Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>As a subthread, is the anything in the extract below that might lead
>>you to think it will turn into EFP? It's the opening few paras of my
>>most recently completed short, which is actually an exploration of a
>>world I'm intending to use for a novel (but not the Sugar novel).
>
> The only thing that makes me uneasy is the prolix narrative voice.
> But I'm not sure it's making me think EFP; it's just making me
> uneasy--is there going to be room in a short story for this degree
> of wordiness, plus a satisfying plot and characters?
See Leiber's Lankhmar shorts? Dunsany?
> Bracketing things that could be dropped, just to see how it
> sounds to you.
I'll put an * by things I was taking as anti-EFP markers.
>>The ruling classes of the City of Gates kept a close eye on all who
>>entered through [some of]* the less-used entrances to their city. After
>>all, [they reasoned,]*** if someone was forced to enter through Tyrant's
>>Gate, they would want to know about it.** So it was not* without* some*
>>measure* of* concern* that Kvorán approached the tall pillars that
>>ringed the city and defined* the multitudinous* entrances*, which*
>>themselves* defined* the essential character of those passing through.
>
>>He had considered the problem of entry for some days. Finally, he
>>had decided that [the gate known as]* Cleric's Gate would be his first
>>approach. If that failed, his next attempt would be Magister's
>>Barbican. He hoped the powers that had created the gates [of the
>>city] would appraise his essential nature *as* [in a manner similar to how]*
>>he himself judged it: by his faith, and by his ability. Though
>>trying to anticipate the thoughts of the Ghyr, who had given rise to
>>races as disparate as [those of] men and the Eyeless, was [possibly] an
>>exercise in sheerest* folly.*
>
>>[Nonetheless,]* he continued his [approach, a]* slow descent to the road
>>that ringed the city, providing equal access to all the possible
>>entryways. Arriving from the [lands to the] west [of the city], he
>>would first encounter Cripplegate, the unfortunately named. Next
>>[around from that] was Widow's Gate, and so on around the ringroad
>>until, about a third of the way around, and just in sight of the
>>coast, he would reach Cleric's Gate.
>
> Maybe you need to keep some of those, for tone.
For me, they're barely holding it above EFP already. Without them it would
still be prolix, but EFPish, serious. With them, it sounds mocking,
conscious.
John F. Eldredge
<rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
>$.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
>
>> One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
>> DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
>
>Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
>'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
>creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
I think the main objection to stew was that, in many books, the
characters didn't seem to eat anything else, even in situations where
other styles of food preparation were more likely. If you are talking
about an inn, some form of soup or stew would likely be on the menu,
because a stewpot can bubble along on its own, without constant
attention, while other dishes are being prepared. If travelers are
relying solely upon dried supplies carried with them, stew is a
reasonable way to reconstitute the dried meat and vegetables. If, on
the other hand, you have just shot a deer, roasting it is a lot less
trouble than making stew out of it.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
R.L.
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 18:02:08 +0000 (UTC), Rob Kerr
> <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
>>$.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
>>
>>> One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
>>> DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
>>
>>Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
>>'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
>>creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
>
> I think the main objection to stew was that, in many books, the
> characters didn't seem to eat anything else, even in situations where
> other styles of food preparation were more likely. If you are talking
> about an inn, some form of soup or stew would likely be on the menu,
> because a stewpot can bubble along on its own, without constant
> attention, while other dishes are being prepared.
And it's a good way to pass off questionable ingredients, and it's already
ready when adventurers stagger in wanting, er, fast food. If non-EFP inns
can't use this commonsense staple, then the standards are a bit inflated,
imo.
> If travelers are
> relying solely upon dried supplies carried with them, stew is a
> reasonable way to reconstitute the dried meat and vegetables.
Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
stew-vessels?
> If, on
> the other hand, you have just shot a deer, roasting it is a lot less
> trouble than making stew out of it.
Good grief. Do EFP characters do that?
Sea Wasp
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
>
Don't worry about it. Someone will call it EFP no matter what. I
could call your extract EFP, or not, depending on what comes after.
There's plenty of buzzwords I could say "hey, that sounds like it
could be hackneyed!", but it's not the words, it's what you do with
them that counts.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Cyli
wrote:
>> If travelers are
>> relying solely upon dried supplies carried with them, stew is a
>> reasonable way to reconstitute the dried meat and vegetables.
>
>Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
>stew-vessels?
>
They might. If I were on a planned journey of length, I'd probably
try to have a pack animal along, in which case it'd be a good old iron
pot or pan. In a group without a pack animal, such items would be
traded off for carrying or divided out fairly or by the leader. Solo,
I'd settle for anything that'd hold water enough to reconstitute the
stuff well enough that I could eat it cold without breaking my teeth.
Or, if the right kind of trees are around, they can use a bark
stewpot, though I'd want to soak all the dried stuff first and then
heat it up. It's some old woodsman's trick, supposedly learned from
AmerInds in our US folklore. Look up boiling water in a paper cup,
for the theory. No, I never tried it myself. On the rare occasions
when camping that I wanted hot food, I used a pot and pan set of
aluminum or light stainless steel.
>
>> If, on
>> the other hand, you have just shot a deer, roasting it is a lot less
>> trouble than making stew out of it.
>
>Good grief. Do EFP characters do that?
>
>
>R.L.
--
r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
Alex Clark
R.L. wrote:
> Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
> stew-vessels?
If the author actually thought about that sort of question, it's
probably not EFP. Attention to detail slows the extruding process.
--
Alex Clark
". . . He's always talking about the goblins he's had done in; he's
had them drowned, he's had them dropped off buildings, he's had them
poisoned, he's had them cooked in pies. . . ."
- _Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix_
Alex Clark
R.L. wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:48:40 +0000 (UTC), Rob Kerr wrote:
>
> > Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> > same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> > it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> > and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
You'll know by how it feels as it comes out.
. . .
> I'm not sure that EFP comes in shorts. :-) . . .
Briefs? Boxers? Thongs?
Chainmail bikinis? I'm sure it comes in chainmail bikinis.
--
Alex Clark
". . . Better wizards than you have lost buttocks, you know!"
Michelle Bottorff
> Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
Darned if I know.
I have one that I've been calling my EFP epic, but when I ran it past a
"EFP tropes" meme it only scored two and a half out of ten.
--
Michelle Bottorff -> Chelle B. -> Shelby
L. Shelby, Writer http://www.lshelby.com/
Livejournal http://lavenderbard.livejournal.com/
rec.arts.sf.composition FAQ http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html
Gerry Quinn
says...
> David Friedman wrote:
> > In article <Xns9835A0D7B80AF...@10.152.1.160>,
> > Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> The ruling classes of the City of Gates
> >
> > in the Islamic world with that name (or nickname). If it matters, I know
> > which story in what book contains the passage I'm thinking of--I might
> > be misremembering the name--and could check it pretty easily.
> >
> Aurangabad - City of Gates in India
>
> http://www.chennaionline.com/toursntravel/ontheroad/tourist.asp
Also note Thebes of the Seven Gates, and Thebes of the Hundred Gates
(different places).
- Gerry Quinn
Bill Swears
I'm not trying to assert that Aurangabad is the Islamic city of which
David Friedman speaks, even though my unexplained like makes it seem
that way. Just practicing googlefu and came up with an interesting
related hit.
Bill
--
Ourdebate.com lifts free debate between writers and dilutes it with ads.
rec.arts.sf.composition is a USENET group, and can be accessed for free.
Ourdebate.com therefore sucks (the life from discourse),
and dribbles (deceit when integrity would have worked just as well).
Rob Kerr
news:4o3sf2pvb9n5onb88...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:48:40 +0000 (UTC), Rob Kerr
> <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions
>>of same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to
>>recognise it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one
>>recognise EFP -- and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
>
> Once you've published the fourth novel in the same world, with no
> end in sight?
Shared worlds fantasy? I believe you may be alluding to the Wheel
of Time, though. Do people here consider that EFP? Goodkind?
Pratchett? (Who I believe is up to 30, with still no end in sight.)
>>** extract begins **
>>The ruling classes of the City of Gates kept a close eye on all
>>who entered through some of the less-used entrances to their city.
>>After all, they reasoned, if someone was forced to enter through
>>Tyrant's
>
> Forced by what? I think this should be mentioned...
If they want to enter the city, they're going to have to go through
a gate. The only gate they will be able to go through will reveal
(to anyone watching) their nature.
> Apparently one can try to enter through as many gates as one
> likes, but when one finally gets through a gate, that gate
> "brands" the person for ever.
It's more a revelation than a branding. There's no outward sign.
And no one will really care who goes through Peasant's Gate, or
Miser's Gate.
> I like that. As long as Kvorán doesn't enter through the gate of
> The Ultimate Badassery.
>
> (Oh well, perhaps he enters through the Tyrant's Gate.)
He eventually ends up going through Cripplegate (which is the name
of the story at the moment) -- much to his chagrin.
Thanks for the feedback, it's all useful.
Mary K. Kuhner
Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>Shared worlds fantasy? I believe you may be alluding to the Wheel
>of Time, though. Do people here consider that EFP? Goodkind?
>Pratchett? (Who I believe is up to 30, with still no end in sight.)
I would definitely class Jordan and Goodkind as EFP. Pratchett, no,
because it's humor.
>He eventually ends up going through Cripplegate (which is the name
>of the story at the moment) -- much to his chagrin.
That would nail it as not-EFP for me, conclusively.
EFP heroes have Big Destinies. They are Born to Save the World.
Things may go against them for a while, but not like that!
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
David Friedman
"Alex Clark" <alexb...@pennswoods.net> wrote:
> R.L. wrote:
> > Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
> > stew-vessels?
>
> If the author actually thought about that sort of question, it's
> probably not EFP. Attention to detail slows the extruding process.
I'm pretty sure Sam carries a cooking pot in LOTR. Some of my characters
carry some sort of pan for making oat cakes, along the lines of
Froissart's description of Scottish troopers.
Bill Swears
> In article <1157543090.7...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Alex Clark" <alexb...@pennswoods.net> wrote:
>
>> R.L. wrote:
>>> Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
>>> stew-vessels?
>> If the author actually thought about that sort of question, it's
>> probably not EFP. Attention to detail slows the extruding process.
>
> I'm pretty sure Sam carries a cooking pot in LOTR. Some of my characters
> carry some sort of pan for making oat cakes, along the lines of
> Froissart's description of Scottish troopers.
>
frying pan tied to the outside of his pack. When we went fishing, he
really wanted to fry fish for breakfast.
Daniel R. Reitman
wrote:
>No, no, you're doing it all wrong. For starters, you're thinking too
>much. If you're putting thought into why the story world is the way it
>is, it's probably not EFP. In EFP, everyone already knows where the
>Thieves' Guild is and how to order a bowl of stew at the tavern and how
>many hit points it takes to kill an orc.
Of course, if everyone knows that and plays off it, it's a parody, not
necessarily EFP.
Dan, ad nauseam
Michelle Bottorff
> Rob Kerr wrote:
> > Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions of
> > same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to recognise
> > it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one recognise EFP --
> > and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
> >
>
> Don't worry about it. Someone will call it EFP no matter what. I
> could call your extract EFP, or not, depending on what comes after.
> There's plenty of buzzwords I could say "hey, that sounds like it
> could be hackneyed!", but it's not the words, it's what you do with
> them that counts.
This reminds me *strongly* of my first reader's comments on Winds. He
read the first chapter, said he was interested in reading more, but
could I guarentee that it wasn't going to be cliched because it sounded
like it might be.
I said, "I dunno, I don't think about my stories in those terms. Why
don't you tell me?"
Eventually he wrote back saying "Nope, not cliched" and "May I read the
sequel when its done?"
(Although it is heartening to know that he decided it wasn't cliched
after all, I think this anecdote bodes ill for the submission process.
Any editor/agent who suspects it might be cliched is unlikely to spare
the time to read on and discover otherwise. )
Rob Kerr
news:edmqlm$5sh$1...@gnus01.u.washington.edu:
Hmm, yes, well -- it's a bit of misdirection on my part, I'm afraid.
He's actually a half-breed (half-Ghyr), which is why the Ghyr's magic
considers him crippled (as he lacks wings). But it does mean he'll
be a pretty powerful magic user, once he figures it out. So possibly
back to EFP. But as someone else says, if I can write EFP and make
people think it isn't (at least for a while), go me! :-)
Will in New Haven
Rob Kerr wrote:
> mkku...@kingman.gs.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote in
> news:edmqlm$5sh$1...@gnus01.u.washington.edu:
>
> > In article <Xns9836A846B8630...@10.152.1.160>,
> > Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>He eventually ends up going through Cripplegate (which is the name
> >>of the story at the moment) -- much to his chagrin.
> >
> > That would nail it as not-EFP for me, conclusively.
> >
> > EFP heroes have Big Destinies. They are Born to Save the World.
> > Things may go against them for a while, but not like that!
>
> Hmm, yes, well -- it's a bit of misdirection on my part, I'm afraid.
> He's actually a half-breed (half-Ghyr), which is why the Ghyr's magic
> considers him crippled (as he lacks wings). But it does mean he'll
> be a pretty powerful magic user, once he figures it out. So possibly
> back to EFP. But as someone else says, if I can write EFP and make
> people think it isn't (at least for a while), go me! :-)
It might be that you should forget using the term "magic user."
Will in New Haven
--
Sunspear, who walked the length of Shadows Dance
Brian M. Scott
<rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote in
<news:Xns9836A846B8630...@10.152.1.160> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> JJ Karhu <kur...@modeemi.fi> wrote in
> news:4o3sf2pvb9n5onb88...@4ax.com:
>> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:48:40 +0000 (UTC), Rob Kerr
>> <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Recently there have been mentions of the dreaded EFP, definitions
>>>of same, but an absence of indicators that would allow one to
>>>recognise it in the wild. So, my question is, how does one
>>>recognise EFP -- and especially, that one is perpetrating it?
>> Once you've published the fourth novel in the same world, with no
>> end in sight?
> Shared worlds fantasy?
Needn't be: the Liavek stories certainly weren't. (Weren't
novels either, of course.)
> I believe you may be alluding to the Wheel of Time,
> though. Do people here consider that EFP?
Yes.
> Goodkind?
Yes.
> Pratchett? [...]
No. Quite apart from the humor, he usually has his own take
on things. (And I'm not even a fan.)
[...]
> He eventually ends up going through Cripplegate (which is
> the name of the story at the moment) -- much to his
> chagrin.
Having now seen the rest of this subthread (down through
Will), I'll simply agree with Will: 'magic user' sounds like
EFT and game-playing.
[...]
Brian
Jacey Bedford
<see...@no-spams.coms> writes
but if you're travelling your cooking has to change. Get meat, apply
fire is probably the easiest cooking method.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate
or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as
though they were the forum's own
Jacey Bedford
Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
>In article <Xns9835C1A487DEE...@10.152.1.160>,
> Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
>> $.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
>>
>> > One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
>> > DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
>>
>> Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
>> 'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
>> creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
>
>is based on. Do you, for instance, have evidence of dishes corresponding
>to a generic modern stew in Ireland before 1500? I don't--nor, I think,
>for anywhere in France or England.
>
>To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
>vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
>British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew, but
if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
a pot and something to put in it.
David Friedman
Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
> >vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
> >British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
>
> Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew, but
> if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
> easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
> and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
> a pot and something to put in it.
There are a lot of surviving medieval recipes, so they in fact did write
about what they cooked. There are medieval Islamic recipes that I think
I would categorize as stews.
But I don't think it is safe to assume that, just because something
makes sense to you, all cultures at all times will do it.
For another example, the standard modern technique of thickening with a
roux, which is trivial, appears, I think, in medieval German cookbooks,
but I have never seen it in English, French or Islamic.
Wilson Heydt
>Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
>>In article <Xns9835C1A487DEE...@10.152.1.160>,
>> Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
>>> $.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
>>>
>>> > One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
>>> > DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
>>>
>>> Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
>>> 'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
>>> creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
>>
>>Part of the question is what historical time period the fictional world
>>is based on. Do you, for instance, have evidence of dishes corresponding
>>to a generic modern stew in Ireland before 1500? I don't--nor, I think,
>>for anywhere in France or England.
>>
>>To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
>>vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
>>British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
>
>Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew, but
>if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
>easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
>and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
>a pot and something to put in it.
Possibly older. With care, it's possible to boil water in a
basket.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
Brian M. Scott
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote in
<news:ddfr-B44343.1...@news.isp.giganews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <q8LyZeHzx0$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>,
> Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial
>>> amount of root vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The
>>> closest I can come in pre-1500 British cooking is beef
>>> "stewed" with onions.
>> Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't
>> call it stew, but if you have a fire, a pot, some meat,
>> some vegetables and some water the easiest thing to do
>> is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot and
>> stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as
>> old as a fire, a pot and something to put in it.
> There are a lot of surviving medieval recipes, so they in
> fact did write about what they cooked.
Most of which, however, come from the upper end of the
social scale, so there's no guarantee that they're fully
representative.
[...]
Brian
Jacey Bedford
Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
>In article <q8LyZeHzx0$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>,
> Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
>> >vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
>> >British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
>>
>> Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew, but
>> if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
>> easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
>> and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
>> a pot and something to put in it.
>
>There are a lot of surviving medieval recipes, so they in fact did write
>about what they cooked. There are medieval Islamic recipes that I think
>I would categorize as stews.
>
>But I don't think it is safe to assume that, just because something
>makes sense to you, all cultures at all times will do it.
>
>For another example, the standard modern technique of thickening with a
>roux, which is trivial, appears, I think, in medieval German cookbooks,
>but I have never seen it in English, French or Islamic.
>
recipes and preparing something to eat as two entirely separate things.
I'd no more think of having a written recipe for stew than I would of
having written instructions about how to brush my teeth.
Why would I want or need to write down something as basic as shoving raw
food in a pot with water and heating it?
I'd only need to write out a recipe if I was making something different
in my pot.
There's a big difference between 'pan-fried sea bass with lemon butter'
and 'catch a fish, shove it in a pan, stick pan over heat source until
fish is fit to eat.'
I can only draw an analogy with songs. Some of the earliest secular
songs date from the 15th and 16th century. It does not mean that there
were no secular songs before this - it just means that no-one collected
them and wrote them down in a form that has survived. Most were passed
on orally from parents to children and from minstrel to minstrel.
So while written recipes might be a great guide, they may not be the
whole story. I know you're a real expert on historical cookery, so it's
not that I'd argue with you about specifics, just that as the person who
shoves food on to the table most days, I know that I would consider very
little of what I cook to be worthy of writing out as a recipe, even if
many people seem to enjoy eating it.
(As for thickening with a roux... I learned how to do it in school in
1963 and I've never done it since. Much too time-consuming and fiddly.
Cornflour or arrowroot would be my first choice for thickening something
milky (cornflour) or clear (arrowroot) and as I've said before... meat
dishes get thickened with gravy granules. Takes seconds and is much
tastier than anything made with a roux.)
David Friedman
They probably aren't fully representative in that sense, but it's hard
to see any reason why stewing would be a technique used by the upper end
and stews not a dish used by the upper end. It isn't as if the recipes
are limited to elaborate dishes, or ones with expensive ingredients.
David Friedman
Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
On the other hand, medieval people did write down recipes. In the case
of _Le Menagier de Paris_, if we accept the usual account, what was
written down was intended as information to be used by a young wife in
running an upper middle class household. The surviving recipes include
simple ones as well as complicated ones.
I expect there were dishes they cooked for which no recipe happens to
have survived. But a substantial category of dishes seems much less
likely.
R.L.
/snip/
Friedman:
>>To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
>>vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
>>British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
>
> Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew, but
> if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
> easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
> and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
> a pot and something to put in it.
That's a lot of if's. If fuel and/or water are scarce, it may be easier to
slice, marinate, and stirfry. If sturdy pots are scarce, easier to roast
under coals.
Not but that I agree with you that in our sort of 'medieval' fantasy lit,
given a home or inn or well-stocked cook wagon, and plenty water, stew
seems intuitive, acceptable. Especially if you're using the same fire to
keep you warm.
Ben Crowell
ask a certain question for fear of appearing stupid, it's probably a
question that 10 other students are dying to know the answer to.
What is EFP?
A google search suggests Extruded Fantasy Product...?
Am I really the *only* person on this group who'd never heard
the term!?!?
Zeborah
> OK, as a teacher, I've learned that if one student is afraid to
> ask a certain question for fear of appearing stupid, it's probably a
> question that 10 other students are dying to know the answer to.
>
> What is EFP?
>
> A google search suggests Extruded Fantasy Product...?
That's it. From the FAQ:
EFP: Extruded Fantasy Product. This generally refers to highly
derivative fantasy epics.
Zeborah
--
Gravity is no joke.
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz/
Cyli
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <Xns9835C1A487DEE...@10.152.1.160>,
> Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
>> $.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
>>
>> > One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
>> > DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
>>
>> Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
>> 'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
>> creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
>
>Part of the question is what historical time period the fictional world
>is based on. Do you, for instance, have evidence of dishes corresponding
>to a generic modern stew in Ireland before 1500? I don't--nor, I think,
>for anywhere in France or England.
>
>To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
>vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
>British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
Did they have soups? They had to have soups. All stew is, when you
come down to it, is a thick soup. We thicken it early on, but if you
were keeping a pot warm on the hearth or the back of the stove and
calling it soup, you'd still call it soup when it thickened up on its
own.
--
r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
Helen Hall
<look...@nospam.invalid> writes
>
>Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew,
I think that's it, really. It just wasn't called "stew". I never had
"stew" at home, it was always, "Irish stew", "hot pot", "potater 'ash",
"braised steak with onions", "stewed neck of lamb" etc. Stewing was a
cooking method, not a dish. It would be like saying, "Oh, let's have
some bake with our cup of tea."
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
_A Legacy of War_, a fantasy murder mystery, now on the web at:
http://helenkenyon.livejournal.com/413.html
David Langford
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <1157543090.7...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Alex Clark" <alexb...@pennswoods.net> wrote:
>
>> R.L. wrote:
>> > Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
>> > stew-vessels?
>>
>> If the author actually thought about that sort of question, it's
>> probably not EFP. Attention to detail slows the extruding process.
>
>I'm pretty sure Sam carries a cooking pot in LOTR. Some of my characters
>carry some sort of pan for making oat cakes, along the lines of
>Froissart's description of Scottish troopers.
Yes, Sam's Backpack of Vast Capacity includes a miniature cooking outfit
with two pans. Useful when there's rabbit to be stewed, but must be
regretfully ditched to save weight for the final effort in Mordor.
Dave
--
David Langford | http://ansible.co.uk/
Latest nonfiction: =The SEX Column and other misprints= (Cosmos, 2005)
Latest fiction: =Different Kinds of Darkness= (Cosmos, 2004)
Nicola Browne
news:q27O9sF3a9$EF...@baradel.demon.co.uk
> In message <q8LyZeHzx0$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>, Jacey Bedford
> <look...@nospam.invalid> writes
> >
> >Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew,
>
> I think that's it, really. It just wasn't called "stew". I never had
> "stew" at home, it was always, "Irish stew", "hot pot", "potater 'ash",
> "braised steak with onions", "stewed neck of lamb" etc. Stewing was a
> cooking method, not a dish. It would be like saying, "Oh, let's have
> some bake with our cup of tea."
>
Oh, I remember 'potater 'ash' at school.
When I'm writing hard I do a lot of things in the oven
(involving some form of protein with veg)I can forget about and quick
stuff in the wok (involving some form of protein with veg)that doesn't
take very long on the hob.
I don't have names for any of the resultant dishes. If the kids ask me
what we're having I tell them what the protein is and whether it's with
rice, pasta or some form of spud. I suspect a lot
of everyday cooking through the centuries has been similarly cobbled
together, recipeless and changing according to circumstances and how
much food was available. I would probably not call any of it 'stew'
though I do talk about 'a roast' usually referring to a lump of meat
plus roasted veg, gravy etc and a 'fry up' which would usually
be a cooked breakfast (bacon, eggs, sausages, tomato, mushrooms
baked beans( not fried) and anything else lying around looking
dodgy in the fridge, to those unfamiliar with the term)
Nicky
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Julian Flood
>
> baked beans( not fried)
Wimp.
JF
Jacey Bedford
surely the people who wrote down recipes, or read them, would be a very
minute percentage of the population as a whole. What about the Average
Peasant with his hut, his Mrs Average Peasant and his 2.4 (or should
that be 24) Average Peasant children? Would what they cooked and ate
ever get written down as a 'recipe'?
I can't help thinking that throwing available food into an iron cookpot
and boiling it in water would be pretty universal.
Maybe if stew was purely a peasant dish it was so far beneath the upper
classes that it was therefore never mentioned in their cookbooks because
it was so infra dig.
Did they not have casseroles of any kind? Did they not cook meat in
liquid? Is there a wider definition of stew that we're missing here?
Hotpot
Casserole
Goulash
Cassoulet
Potage
Soup
I'd even define Boef Bourginon and Coq au Vin as stew in the wider
sense.
sharkey
>
> Yes, Sam's Backpack of Vast Capacity includes a miniature cooking outfit
> with two pans. Useful when there's rabbit to be stewed, but must be
> regretfully ditched to save weight for the final effort in Mordor.
Ah, those pesky Elvish hexamine stoves, never can simmer a stew on them.
Hobbits would probably like trangia stoves, but I prefer the rather orcish
propane/butane stoves myself. Heading out motorcycle camping this weekend,
I'll let you all know how the stew turns out :-).
-----sharks
David Friedman
Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In message <ddfr-F34574.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>, David
> Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
> >In article <rPeCFvNkc1$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>,
> > Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <ddfr-B44343.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>, David
> >> Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
> >> >In article <q8LyZeHzx0$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>,
> >> > Jacey Bedford <look...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
> >> >> >vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
> >> >> >British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
> >> >>
> >> >> Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew, but
> >> >> if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
> >> >> easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
> >> >> and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
> >> >> a pot and something to put in it.
...
> >On the other hand, medieval people did write down recipes. In the case
> >of _Le Menagier de Paris_, if we accept the usual account, what was
> >written down was intended as information to be used by a young wife in
> >running an upper middle class household. The surviving recipes include
> >simple ones as well as complicated ones.
> >
> >I expect there were dishes they cooked for which no recipe happens to
> >have survived. But a substantial category of dishes seems much less
> >likely.
> Since such a tiny proportion of the population could read and write,
> surely the people who wrote down recipes, or read them, would be a very
> minute percentage of the population as a whole.
Yes. In at least one case, the cookbook seems to have been dictated by a
cook to a scribe, so the person providing recipes wouldn't have had to
be able to read or write. But I agree that the corpus of surviving
recipes represents what was done by a tiny fraction of the population,
mostly cooking for the upper classes.
> What about the Average
> Peasant with his hut, his Mrs Average Peasant and his 2.4 (or should
> that be 24) Average Peasant children? Would what they cooked and ate
> ever get written down as a 'recipe'?
No, although it might get mentioned in some other context. But it seems
unlikely to me that a style of cooking common among peasants would be
unknown to nobles, and so would never show up in their recipes.
>
> I can't help thinking that throwing available food into an iron cookpot
> and boiling it in water would be pretty universal.
What makes you think that medieval peasants had iron cookpots?
Checking my memory with a little googling, iron cauldrons seems to have
begun replacing bronze ones only about 1500. My guess is that your
average peasant would be using neither bronze nor iron by some sort of
clay pot.
> Maybe if stew was purely a peasant dish it was so far beneath the upper
> classes that it was therefore never mentioned in their cookbooks because
> it was so infra dig.
I don't think that is likely.
> Did they not have casseroles of any kind? Did they not cook meat in liquid?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, and you quoted above, there is a
recipe for stewed beef, consisting of beef with onions. Medieval people
certainly did cook meat in liquid--which is why I started by explaining
what I meant by generic stew (also quoted by you above).
David Friedman
Cyli <cyl...@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 11:23:55 -0700, David Friedman
> <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <Xns9835C1A487DEE...@10.152.1.160>,
> > Rob Kerr <rober...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:1mxc73nspnq52
> >> $.1axum06h3s6ij$.d...@40tude.net:
> >>
> >> > One good indication is the use of too many of the clichés in
> >> > DWJ's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land.
> >>
> >> Noted. I must give that a reread. Though I object to her notes on
> >> 'stew,' being of Irish descent. I reckon I could put quite a
> >> creditable stew in my EFP. :-P
> >
> >Part of the question is what historical time period the fictional world
> >is based on. Do you, for instance, have evidence of dishes corresponding
> >to a generic modern stew in Ireland before 1500? I don't--nor, I think,
> >for anywhere in France or England.
> >
> >To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
> >vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
> >British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
>
> Did they have soups?
Yes.
David Friedman
Helen Hall <use...@delete.this.baradel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <q8LyZeHzx0$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>, Jacey Bedford
> <look...@nospam.invalid> writes
> >
> >Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew,
>
> I think that's it, really. It just wasn't called "stew". I never had
> "stew" at home, it was always, "Irish stew", "hot pot", "potater 'ash",
> "braised steak with onions", "stewed neck of lamb" etc. Stewing was a
> cooking method, not a dish. It would be like saying, "Oh, let's have
> some bake with our cup of tea."
As I thought I made clear at the beginning, I wasn't going by names but
by recipes.
Joann Zimmerman
look...@nospam.invalid says...
I'm inclined to buy Jacey's argument, particularly via the analogy to
music (which seems to have disappeared somewhere or the other).
One thing I think we're all missing about stew of whatever description
is that it requires either a utensil or a delivery mechanism, since it's
essentially some sort of liquid, regardless of how thick. Either spoons,
bowls, or bread/hollowed-out veggies/etc. If you don't have bowl-like
objects, you've got to huddle round the common pot and scoop it out.
This doesn't work well with the stereotypical formal everyone-in-a-line-
down-both-sides-of-a-long-table service of the medieval meal. I don't
hear all that much about bowls as serving-ware. We can perhaps assume,
then, that such liquidy foods didn't happen at banquets and other high-
class venues, and therefore might not have had an application in a
receipt collection for an upper middle class kitchen. (Out on the road,
or in a farmhouse, on the other hand ...)
Further, stew is traditionally one of those things where you throw in
what's available; rather than deciding "I'm going to cook boeuf
bourgignon," you say "what kind of meat do I have, and what's not rotten
in the root cellar?" Recipes for this would be pointless; whatever you
did would be entirely different next time out. What we're looking at
here is a technique, not an ingredient list, and processes somehow tend
to get less exposure than do lists.
--
"I never understood people who don't have bookshelves."
--George Plimpton
Joann Zimmerman jz...@bellereti.com
JF
> > Did they have soups?
>
> Yes.
Did they have thick, stand-your-spoon-up-in-it soups?
JF
David Friedman
Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
> One thing I think we're all missing about stew of whatever description
> is that it requires either a utensil or a delivery mechanism, since it's
> essentially some sort of liquid, regardless of how thick. Either spoons,
> bowls, or bread/hollowed-out veggies/etc. If you don't have bowl-like
> objects, you've got to huddle round the common pot and scoop it out.
> This doesn't work well with the stereotypical formal everyone-in-a-line-
> down-both-sides-of-a-long-table service of the medieval meal. I don't
> hear all that much about bowls as serving-ware. We can perhaps assume,
> then, that such liquidy foods didn't happen at banquets and other high-
> class venues, and therefore might not have had an application in a
> receipt collection for an upper middle class kitchen. (Out on the road,
> or in a farmhouse, on the other hand ...)
Except that soups and the like are reasonably common in medieval
cookbooks.
Joann Zimmerman
dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com says...
> Except that soups and the like are reasonably common in medieval
> cookbooks.
In which case I do believe we're back to when is a soup not a stew, or
vice versa.
David Friedman
Joann Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote:
> In article <ddfr-EA5550.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
> dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com says...
>
> > Except that soups and the like are reasonably common in medieval
> > cookbooks.
>
> In which case I do believe we're back to when is a soup not a stew, or
> vice versa.
Which is part of the reason I started the discussion by describing what
I meant by a generic stew.
David Friedman
"JF" <jul...@floodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
Hard to be certain, since the recipes don't normally give quantities,
but my guess is yes. The ones I am thinking of are thickened with
chopped almonds and bread crumbs (Mirause of Catalonia) and bread (Bruet
of Savoy). They have herbs and spices, but no substantial root
vegetables.
yourno...@gmail.com
Jacey Bedford wrote:
> In message <ddfr-8C0CB1.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>, David
> Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
> >
> >To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
> >vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
> >British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
>
> if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
> easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
> and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
> a pot and something to put in it.
While I agree that there were stews, or something analogus, in most
historical human societies, I doubt they were the everyday meal, or
even common. Most societies I have read about had some main staple
food like bread, yams, or boiled rice, some kind of starchy food that
can be made from a crop that has a good yield per acre and stores well.
Of course they raised many other crops besides the staples, but they
were much smaller quantities. Since meat animals must be husbanded or
hunted meat was not the everyday 1-3 meals thing that it is today not
even counting the hardships of storing meat. There are only so many
things you can do to make salt pork not taste like salt pork. What
gets me about so many EFP stories is how little bread/rice/groats they
consume and how much meat they do. I would bet that historically a lot
more oatmeal, peasemeal, farina, and cracked rice was cooked in the
"pots with water" than stew.
I want to see a story where a group walks into the local inn and orders
a room with a meal, and out comes sorghum sweetened rye bread, oat
porridge with butter, and a couple of pints of small ale. Or maybe
congee and black tea. Something interesting.
>
> Jacey
> >
Bryan
R.L.
> In message <33kv3khgzgup$.n4m9p8hc...@40tude.net>, R.L.
> <see...@no-spams.coms> writes
>>On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:41:12 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote:
>>
/snip/
>>>
>>> I think the main objection to stew was that, in many books, the
>>> characters didn't seem to eat anything else, even in situations where
>>> other styles of food preparation were more likely. If you are talking
>>> about an inn, some form of soup or stew would likely be on the menu,
>>> because a stewpot can bubble along on its own, without constant
>>> attention, while other dishes are being prepared.
>>
>>And it's a good way to pass off questionable ingredients, and it's already
>>ready when adventurers stagger in wanting, er, fast food. If non-EFP inns
>>can't use this commonsense staple, then the standards are a bit inflated,
>>imo.
>>
>>
>>> If travelers are
>>> relying solely upon dried supplies carried with them, stew is a
>>> reasonable way to reconstitute the dried meat and vegetables.
>>
>>Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
>>stew-vessels?
>>
>>
>>> If, on
>>> the other hand, you have just shot a deer, roasting it is a lot less
>>> trouble than making stew out of it.
>>
>>Good grief. Do EFP characters do that?
> If you are static, the pot over the fire is probably the easy option,
> but if you're travelling your cooking has to change. Get meat, apply
> fire is probably the easiest cooking method.
Yes. Spear rabbit. Prop spear over fire. When done, tear off good parts and
eat.
For stew, even if you had the pot and water, you'd have to cut the rabbit
up first and choose which parts to put in the pot.
R.L.
--
hardware problems, patchy access, typing fast....
Irina Rempt
> as the person who
> shoves food on to the table most days, I know that I would consider very
> little of what I cook to be worthy of writing out as a recipe, even if
> many people seem to enjoy eating it.
Snap!
(in fact I do write everyday things out as recipes these days, but that's
only because I have daughters aged eleven and twelve who have very little
actual cooking experience and do get to/want to/have to shove food on the
table sometimes)
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 02-Sep-2006
David Friedman
yourno...@gmail.com wrote:
> What
> gets me about so many EFP stories is how little bread/rice/groats they
> consume and how much meat they do. I would bet that historically a lot
> more oatmeal, peasemeal, farina, and cracked rice was cooked in the
> "pots with water" than stew.
>
> I want to see a story where a group walks into the local inn and orders
> a room with a meal, and out comes sorghum sweetened rye bread, oat
> porridge with butter, and a couple of pints of small ale. Or maybe
> congee and black tea. Something interesting.
---
(travellers in the open)
Moving slowly he picked up a flat stick, leaned over the fire, used the
stick to transfer something from the pan to a wide leaf in his other
hand and held it out to her--an oat cake, only slightly scorched. He
passed her a small dish of salt. As she took it he reached in, took a
little, sprinkled it over the cake, leaned back against the tree. She
took a small bite--sweetness of oats, salt tang, safety.
---
(visiting a peasant village)
He went through the door at the back; there was a sound of voices. In a
few minutes he was back with a clay pitcher of beer.
"You'll be dry from the ride. Dinner soon."
He ate with his guests at the small table--wheat bread, a thick stew of
lentils and root vegetables.
--
(army in the field)
When they left the village Harald was poorer by several gold pieces,
richer by sacks of oats--some ground to meal--and a small flock of
sheep. The next day was spent dealing with both. James--Knute had tired
of addressing his tentmate as "Your Majesty" and the rest had followed
his lead--was given brief instruction in converting oatmeal to oat
cakes, spent much of the day at it while his companions handled the
messier job.
...
"Back home, they smoke meat for days, weeks sometime."
"Keep it for months, too. This'll be gone in a few days. Then beans if
we can cook them, oat cakes, dried stuff while it lasts."
---
yourno...@gmail.com
Not really. I've made stews and soups with chicken, pork, and rabbit
that I simply took a cleaned carcass or roast and tossed it in.
Boiling the bones adds flavor and some nice proteins that really add to
the texture. When the meat was cooked, but before I added the starch
to thicken it I fish out the carcass and strip the meat off and toss it
back in discarding the bones. I will say that it is easier to do with
chicken than rabbit or pork, but it's not hard for any of them.
>
>
> R.L.
> --
> hardware problems, patchy access, typing fast....
p.s. I doubt I would spit a rabbit on my spear to cook it. I wouldn't
want to char the handle of my weapon, nor get grease on it. Although
you could eat during the battle when your camp gets overrun by the bad
guys since a spear would be used offhand for blocking since real heroes
only fight with longswords. ;)
Nicholas Waller
Jacey Bedford wrote:
> In message <ddfr-8C0CB1.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>, David
> Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> writes
> >Part of the question is what historical time period the fictional world
> >is based on. Do you, for instance, have evidence of dishes corresponding
> >to a generic modern stew in Ireland before 1500? I don't--nor, I think,
> >for anywhere in France or England.
> >
> >To me, generic stew involves meat and a substantial amount of root
> >vegetables cooked slowly in liquid. The closest I can come in pre-1500
> >British cooking is beef "stewed" with onions.
>
> Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew, but
> if you have a fire, a pot, some meat, some vegetables and some water the
> easiest thing to do is to shove the meat and veg and water into the pot
> and stick it over the fire. I would guess that stew is as old as a fire,
> a pot and something to put in it.
Wikipedia quotes Herodotus on the Scythians, who didn't even need a pot
- the animal boils itself: the meat is boiled in the animal's paunch,
over a fire made from its own bones... though, without veggies, I guess
that is just boiling meat, not a stew.
The same article does refer to written recipes for lamb stews & fish
stews from a 1st or 2ndC Roman called Apicius, and ragouts from a
Frenchie called Taillevent who presumably fl. about the 1360s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stew
--
Nick
Daniel R. Reitman
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <1157543090.7...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Alex Clark" <alexb...@pennswoods.net> wrote:
>> R.L. wrote:
>> > Cooked in a bladder, or something? Do EFP characters often carry
>> > stew-vessels?
>> If the author actually thought about that sort of question, it's
>> probably not EFP. Attention to detail slows the extruding process.
>I'm pretty sure Sam carries a cooking pot in LOTR. Some of my characters
>carry some sort of pan for making oat cakes, along the lines of
>Froissart's description of Scottish troopers.
Of course, if you're going to carry a frying pan for breakfast, make
sure it's a digestible one.
Dan, ad nauseam
Gerry Quinn
jul...@floodsclimbers.co.uk says...
Even if they didn't, stew doesn't have to be thickened.
- Gerry Quinn
David Friedman
"Nicholas Waller" <test...@aol.com> wrote:
> Wikipedia quotes Herodotus on the Scythians, who didn't even need a pot
> - the animal boils itself: the meat is boiled in the animal's paunch,
> over a fire made from its own bones... though, without veggies, I guess
> that is just boiling meat, not a stew.
>
> The same article does refer to written recipes for lamb stews & fish
> stews from a 1st or 2ndC Roman called Apicius,
I think the cookbook is generally dated to the 4th or 5th century. I
haven't worked from it and don't know in any detail what's in it.
> and ragouts from a
> Frenchie called Taillevent who presumably fl. about the 1360s.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stew
Looking through Scully's edition of Taillevent, I cannot find any use of
the word "ragout." It's not in the index and doesn't seem to be in any
of dish titles.
Taillevent has a section on boiled meats, but the closest to a stew is
mutton cooked with minced onions. He has a section on thick pottages,
but again the closest is meat cooked with sliced or minced onions.
Helen Hall
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>>
>Oh, I remember 'potater 'ash' at school.
> When I'm writing hard I do a lot of things in the oven
>(involving some form of protein with veg)I can forget about and quick
>stuff in the wok (involving some form of protein with veg)that doesn't
>take very long on the hob.
Because of the hours I work, all my cooking has to be done either very
quickly or very slowly. So it's either stuff thrown in the slow cooker
and left to simmer all day or it's something quickly stirred up in a wok
-- not necessarily Chinese, in fact mostly not.
>I don't have names for any of the resultant dishes. If the kids ask me
>what we're having I tell them what the protein is and whether it's with
>rice, pasta or some form of spud.
Me too. And then there are the times I get confused and I forget what I
got out of the freezer to defrost and my poor husband ends up with rice
bolognese. :-)
Brian M. Scott
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote in
<news:ddfr-2569C0.1...@news.isp.giganews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <1157657746.1...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Nicholas Waller" <test...@aol.com> wrote:
[...]
>> and ragouts from a
>> Frenchie called Taillevent who presumably fl. about the 1360s.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stew
> Looking through Scully's edition of Taillevent, I cannot
> find any use of the word "ragout." It's not in the index
> and doesn't seem to be in any of dish titles.
Not surprising: in the sense in question the French word is
first found in the 17th c.
> Taillevent has a section on boiled meats, but the closest
> to a stew is mutton cooked with minced onions. He has a
> section on thick pottages, but again the closest is meat
> cooked with sliced or minced onions.
Scully (p.18) refers to the dishes in that section (10-30)
as 'meat broths, stews and similar preparations', and he
translates <civé> as 'stew' (Veal Stew, Hare Stew, Rabbit
Stew); his definition of 'stew' is a bit broader than yours.
The recipe for Civé de veel (Veal Stew) concludes:
... et soyt liant, et assez d'ongnons, et que le pain
soit brun, et agu de vin aigre et fort d'espices, et
doibt estre jaunet.
Very freely translated:
... And it should be thick, and there should be
enough onions, and the bread should be brown
and sharp with vinegar and spicy, and it should
be yellowish.
This is getting close to something that I'd call a stew.
Brian
Nicola Browne
> In message <836242b609aa346c24...@mygate.mailgate.org>,
> Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
> >>
> >Oh, I remember 'potater 'ash' at school.
> > When I'm writing hard I do a lot of things in the oven
> >(involving some form of protein with veg)I can forget about and quick
> >stuff in the wok (involving some form of protein with veg)that doesn't
> >take very long on the hob.
>
> Because of the hours I work, all my cooking has to be done either very
> quickly or very slowly. So it's either stuff thrown in the slow cooker
> and left to simmer all day or it's something quickly stirred up in a wok
> -- not necessarily Chinese, in fact mostly not.
>
> >I don't have names for any of the resultant dishes. If the kids ask me
> >what we're having I tell them what the protein is and whether it's with
> >rice, pasta or some form of spud.
>
> Me too. And then there are the times I get confused and I forget what I
> got out of the freezer to defrost and my poor husband ends up with rice
> bolognese. :-)
>
Not quite as bad as the curried bolognese we once ( almost)had.
I was very pregnant for the first time and both my husband and sister
decided to cook a meal. The touble was they both thought they were
doing it on their own and one was cooking a curry while the other
was doing a bolognese. They both wandered in and out of the kitchen
adding ingredients until it all ended in tears when someone spilled a
whole pack of pepper on the hot hob, the pepper ignited, and our flat
was filled with incredibly noxious fumes.
We had to open all the windows and stick our heads out in order
to breathe and to stop our eyes from streaming. Laughing hysterically
did not help.
I think we ended up going out for lunch : )
Helen Hall
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes
>>
>Not quite as bad as the curried bolognese we once ( almost)had.
>I was very pregnant for the first time and both my husband and sister
>decided to cook a meal. The touble was they both thought they were
>doing it on their own and one was cooking a curry while the other
>was doing a bolognese. They both wandered in and out of the kitchen
>adding ingredients until it all ended in tears when someone spilled a
>whole pack of pepper on the hot hob, the pepper ignited, and our flat
>was filled with incredibly noxious fumes.
*Chuckle* Now if you put that in a scene in a sitcom, no one would
believe it!
>We had to open all the windows and stick our heads out in order
>to breathe and to stop our eyes from streaming. Laughing hysterically
>did not help.
>I think we ended up going out for lunch : )
I think that was a very wise decision in the circumstances. :-)
Sea Wasp
> I want to see a story where a group walks into the local inn and orders
> a room with a meal, and out comes sorghum sweetened rye bread, oat
> porridge with butter, and a couple of pints of small ale. Or maybe
> congee and black tea. Something interesting.
Magic of Recluce/The Magic Engineer, Modessitt. While some meals give
you meat, some are just bread, cheese, and beer.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Julian Flood
>>>> Did they have soups?
>>> Yes.
>>
>> Did they have thick, stand-your-spoon-up-in-it soups?
>
> Hard to be certain, since the recipes don't normally give quantities,
> but my guess is yes. The ones I am thinking of are thickened with
> chopped almonds and bread crumbs (Mirause of Catalonia) and bread (Bruet
> of Savoy). They have herbs and spices, but no substantial root
> vegetables.
A distinction, says Lord Peter, without a difference.
QED
JF
David Friedman
Near the beginning of the thread I mentioned beef ystewed (not by name),
as a meat stewed with onion dish, and, as I mentioned in the post you
are responding to, there are similar things in Taillevent. But I don't
think that's what generic stew normally implies. Stewed beef with minced
onions isn't beef stew.
Suzanne Blom
"Joann Zimmerman" <jz...@bellereti.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f69fc533...@news.individual.net...
> is that it requires either a utensil or a delivery mechanism, since it's
> essentially some sort of liquid, regardless of how thick. Either spoons,
> bowls, or bread/hollowed-out veggies/etc. If you don't have bowl-like
> objects, you've got to huddle round the common pot and scoop it out.
> This doesn't work well with the stereotypical formal everyone-in-a-line-
> down-both-sides-of-a-long-table service of the medieval meal. I don't
> hear all that much about bowls as serving-ware. We can perhaps assume,
> then, that such liquidy foods didn't happen at banquets and other high-
> class venues, and therefore might not have had an application in a
> receipt collection for an upper middle class kitchen. (Out on the road,
> or in a farmhouse, on the other hand ...)
>
this, is everybody used a hunk of bread to scoop food out of the common pot.
Brian M. Scott
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote in
<news:ddfr-E1D426.1...@news.isp.giganews.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
> In article <12w9igiy58c42.1...@40tude.net>,
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
[...]
>> Scully (p.18) refers to the dishes in that section (10-30)
>> as 'meat broths, stews and similar preparations', and he
>> translates <civé> as 'stew' (Veal Stew, Hare Stew, Rabbit
>> Stew); his definition of 'stew' is a bit broader than yours.
>> The recipe for Civé de veel (Veal Stew) concludes:
>> ... et soyt liant, et assez d'ongnons, et que le pain
>> soit brun, et agu de vin aigre et fort d'espices, et
>> doibt estre jaunet.
>> Very freely translated:
>> ... And it should be thick, and there should be
>> enough onions, and the bread should be brown
>> and sharp with vinegar and spicy, and it should
>> be yellowish.
>> This is getting close to something that I'd call a stew.
> Near the beginning of the thread I mentioned beef ystewed
> (not by name), as a meat stewed with onion dish, and, as
> I mentioned in the post you are responding to, there are
> similar things in Taillevent.
Er, this *is* from Taillevent. And I chose it specifically
because from my point of view it is a bit more than 'meat
stewed with onions': the bread makes a difference, as it
adds another more or less solid item.
> But I don't think that's what generic stew normally
> implies. Stewed beef with minced onions isn't beef stew.
Possibly not; Scully evidently disagrees. In any case I
have no problem using the word 'stew' to refer to veal
stewed with lots of onions and bread.
Brian
David Friedman
Julian Flood <jul...@ooopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote:
I did specify what I meant by generic stew at the beginning of the
discussion.
Jacey Bedford
Zimmerman <jz...@bellereti.com> writes
>In article <ddfr-EA5550.1...@news.isp.giganews.com>,
>dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com says...
>
>> Except that soups and the like are reasonably common in medieval
>> cookbooks.
>
>In which case I do believe we're back to when is a soup not a stew, or
>vice versa.
>
all the time... have soups that are so hearty there's hardly any liquid
and also have stews that by Day Four are liquid only.
Problem solved, I think.
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate
or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as
though they were the forum's own
Jacey Bedford
<use...@delete.this.baradel.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <q8LyZeHzx0$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>, Jacey Bedford
><look...@nospam.invalid> writes
>>
>>Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew,
>
>"stew" at home, it was always, "Irish stew", "hot pot", "potater 'ash",
>"braised steak with onions", "stewed neck of lamb" etc. Stewing was a
>cooking method, not a dish. It would be like saying, "Oh, let's have
>some bake with our cup of tea."
Indeed. My stew is rarely the same twice. Sometimes it's lamb mince and
potatoes, sometimes it's beef with carrots and parsnips and sweet
potatoes. Sometimes it has dried pulses in it and sometimes not.
Sometimes I throw in a can of tinned chopped tomatoes and/or baked
beans, The only thing in common is that it has some kind of meat and
99.9% of the time it has onion (unless cooking for one friend who has an
onion allergy). The other thing in common is that it's slow cooking for
several hours.
Mostly I cook it on the stove top in a gallon pan, but occasionally I
throw all the same ingredients into a big pyrex casserole dish and cook
it slowly in the oven.
Jacey Bedford
Nicola Browne <nicky.m...@btinternet.com> writes>news:q27O9sF3a9$EF...@baradel.demon.co.uk
>
>> In message <q8LyZeHzx0$EF...@artifact.demon.co.uk>, Jacey Bedford
>> <look...@nospam.invalid> writes
>> >
>> >Maybe they didn't write about it, or maybe they didn't call it stew,
>>
>> I think that's it, really. It just wasn't called "stew". I never had
>> "stew" at home, it was always, "Irish stew", "hot pot", "potater 'ash",
>> "braised steak with onions", "stewed neck of lamb" etc. Stewing was a
>> cooking method, not a dish. It would be like saying, "Oh, let's have
>> some bake with our cup of tea."
>>
> When I'm writing hard I do a lot of things in the oven
>(involving some form of protein with veg)I can forget about and quick
>stuff in the wok (involving some form of protein with veg)that doesn't
>take very long on the hob.
>what we're having I tell them what the protein is and whether it's with
>of everyday cooking through the centuries has been similarly cobbled
>together, recipeless and changing according to circumstances and how
>much food was available. I would probably not call any of it 'stew'
>though I do talk about 'a roast' usually referring to a lump of meat
>plus roasted veg, gravy etc and a 'fry up' which would usually
>be a cooked breakfast (bacon, eggs, sausages, tomato, mushrooms
>baked beans( not fried) and anything else lying around looking
>dodgy in the fridge, to those unfamiliar with the term)
>
>Nicky
I have a very similar modus operandi when busy. If I can get away with
one-pot-cooking, then that's what I do. The kids have grown and flown
which eliminates one level of frustrating, 'Mum what's that?' questions
from the dinner table.
It's either one pot cooking or burnt offerings when I put real meat into
a pan and cook it in some way where overcooking results in little hard
pieces of shoe leather.
Jacey Bedford
<use...@delete.this.baradel.demon.co.uk> writes
>And then there are the times I get confused and I forget what I got out
>of the freezer to defrost and my poor husband ends up with rice
>bolognese. :-)
My mum makes great pastry and sometimes she bakes pies (both meat and
fruit) for the freezer. The trouble is she's not always good at
labelling so sometimes we have Surprise Pie. You have to wait until it's
cooked enough to smell before you decide whether to make gravy or
custard to go with it.
yourno...@gmail.com
Suzanne Blom wrote:
> >
> The way I picture Medieval food being eaten, tho I don't know where I got
> this, is everybody used a hunk of bread to scoop food out of the common pot.
I vaguely remember reading years ago about a FORMAL dinner where they
served several courses one of which was a soup that was shared between
diners. There was one cup/gobblet type of vessel per each pair of
guests and they shared a long handled spoon. If I'm remembering
correctly the pairs shared a wine cup also. When I say pairs I don't
mean husband and wife, just two people sitting next to each other.
This may have been from "Life in a Medieval City" which has been
ripped to pieces by modern historians I believe.
Bryan
Jacey Bedford
<"crowell06 at lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com"@?.?.invalid> writes
>OK, as a teacher, I've learned that if one student is afraid to
>ask a certain question for fear of appearing stupid, it's probably a
>question that 10 other students are dying to know the answer to.
>
>What is EFP?
>
>A google search suggests Extruded Fantasy Product...?
>
>Am I really the *only* person on this group who'd never heard
>the term!?!?
I had to ask a few weeks ago.
Jacey Bedford
<"<see-sig"@no-spams.coms> writes
I think we had this discussion before about the practicalities of stew
on the road. Generally it takes too long so just cooking game in the
camp fire is probably the best bet, or boiling porridge grains with salt
meat from your store.
Someone suggested that if you had a leather box lined with straw and a
steady pack animal, you could put a lidded stew pot (crock or metal) in
the straw-insulated box, fill it up with meat and boiling water then add
a few stones heated in the fire. You put the lid on tight, pack it with
as much straw as you can and strap it on to the back of your pack horse
or sit it in your wagon. By the time you make camp in the evening the
dish will have slow-cooked and may require only a very small amount of
further cooking.
Cheers
Bill Swears
> OK, as a teacher, I've learned that if one student is afraid to
> ask a certain question for fear of appearing stupid, it's probably a
> question that 10 other students are dying to know the answer to.
>
> What is EFP?
>
> A google search suggests Extruded Fantasy Product...?
>
> Am I really the *only* person on this group who'd never heard
> the term!?!?
Bill
--
Ourdebate.com lifts free debate between writers and dilutes it with ads.
rec.arts.sf.composition is a USENET group, and can be accessed for free.
Ourdebate.com therefore sucks (the life from discourse),
and dribbles (deceit when integrity would have worked just as well).
Julian Flood
> I did specify what I meant by generic stew at the beginning of the
> discussion.
Ah.
JF
Irina Rempt
> Yes, I'd be happy to call a soup a stew and vice versa. I do it at home
> all the time... have soups that are so hearty there's hardly any liquid
> and also have stews that by Day Four are liquid only.
I turn leftover stew into soup, and leftover soup into stew, whenever it
seems convenient. Also, I turn stew into pie (with a bread or scone
topping) or, if it has a light/smooth enough texture, soufflé.
Any more questions? :-)
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/foundobjects/index.cgi Latest: 02-Sep-2006
R.L.
> In message <1cs7jqx9sdorl.1...@40tude.net>, R.L.
> <"<see-sig"@no-spams.coms> writes
>>On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 23:37:18 +0100, Jacey Bedford wrote:
>>
>>> In message <33kv3khgzgup$.n4m9p8hc...@40tude.net>, R.L.
>>> <see...@no-spams.coms> writes
>>>>On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:41:12 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote:
/snip/
>>>>> If, on
>>>>> the other hand, you have just shot a deer, roasting it is a lot less
>>>>> trouble than making stew out of it.
>>>>
>>>>Good grief. Do EFP characters do that?
/snip/
> Someone suggested that if you had a leather box lined with straw and a
> steady pack animal, you could put a lidded stew pot (crock or metal) in
> the straw-insulated box, fill it up with meat and boiling water then add
> a few stones heated in the fire. You put the lid on tight, pack it with
> as much straw as you can and strap it on to the back of your pack horse
> or sit it in your wagon. By the time you make camp in the evening the
> dish will have slow-cooked and may require only a very small amount of
> further cooking.
Now there's a thought. Using EFP cliches -- with the details required for
them to really happen. Kind of like TOOTH AND CLAW. :-)
R.L.
--
hardware problems, scanty access, typing fast
(and typoing fast, usually)