Some Other Axiom of this Written Art
Susan R Murray
If I was a Chinese poet
with a small book in my pocket
looking through gardens tied
by water over rocks,
I would not care to make a rhyme
to design a scheme of rhythm
by word or prose claim exclamation
or triplets of alliteration.
If I was a Chinese poet
I'd write with color shape and size
each word placed to please the eye
to contemplate that silent sea
of soundless unspoken imagery.
9/96
- Susan Murray
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
web www.andrew.cmu.edu/~smurray
phone 412.901.5656
snail PO Box 2888 SMC 1668
Pittsburgh PA 15230
Greg Jungheim
<smur...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Some Other Axiom of the Written Art
>
>If I was a Chinese poet
>with a small book in my pocket
>looking through gardens tied
>by water over rocks,
>
>I would not care to make a rhyme
>to design a scheme of rhythm
>by word or prose claim exclamation
>or triplets of alliteration.
>
>If I was a Chinese poet
>I'd write with color shape and size
>each word placed to please the eye
>to contemplate that silent sea
>of soundless unspoken imagery.
>
>
>
>9/96
> - Susan Murray
obnonaxiomofwrittenartsenryu
non-chinese
susan writes one
un-chinese
a bad poem
about good poem
she can't write
because
she ain't
chinese
--Senryu Sid
Jeannekhan
Feeling Chinese as only occidents may,
have tried to arrange words in patterns
that play or pretend to say more than words say...some resemble cliffs or
pregnant ladies large where large should be large--
other are neat forced squares and trapezoid for words wrung dry to fit
the lines or boundaries of the day.
Your poem makes sense to me.
I see a curve, spots, dots and circular
stairs with platforms and ledges that
lead to round and short rooms and shelves.
I like to hang around and walk to and fro within such places, then make a door
and leave up the stairs to no-roof cupola
or walk the widow's walk waiting for the sea to throw back my bonnie to me.
btw saw the good poem with the lion in the middle as my library lions from
Copley
Square..I saw books with that middle part.
I liked the whole as it was, but the revision pleased, too. Spare, clear and
nearly Chinese
with each word imaging away, hip hip!
As my life shortens, expect my verbosity
to become brevity, but maybe not, lots is good for me, just boggles
partners...;>
My eye pleased by this eye placed to look at me from below where lion roared in
the other garden. Unum's eye has that effect when money watches me spend
it...;>
Jeanne who ate at Nemacola's fine foods
where chef--a friend of friend named Rhonda who lives on a mountain in Hopwood
next to Summit and Jumonville-gave me portabellas to move to PA for ever...
>Subject: Some Other Axiom of this Written Art
>From: Susan R Murray <smur...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>Date: 10/29/98 9:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <gqCIwgu00...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>
>Some Other Axiom of the Written Art
>
>If I was a Chinese poet
>with a small book in my pocket
>looking through gardens tied
>by water over rocks,
>
>I would not care to make a rhyme
>to design a scheme of rhythm
>by word or prose claim exclamation
>or triplets of alliteration.
>
>If I was a Chinese poet
>I'd write with color shape and size
>each word placed to please the eye
>to contemplate that silent sea
>of soundless unspoken imagery.
>
>
>
>9/96
> - Susan Murray
>
Jeannekhan
non-chinese noodles
also feed masses hungry
for spring-board's use
criticism calls
action forth from back burner
utility's good
gram sez: don't look gift
horse in the face-jump on it
ride not-fall-lee
Jeanne no senryu- just a hawk from a hack
looking for the cough syrup like you...;>
>Subject: Re: Some Other Axiom of this Written Art
>From: gjun...@enteract.com (Greg Jungheim)
>Date: 10/29/98 9:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <363950fa....@NEWS.ENTERACT.COM>
>
>On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 00:31:24 -0500, Susan R Murray
><smur...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
>>Some Other Axiom of the Written Art
>>
>>If I was a Chinese poet
>>with a small book in my pocket
>>looking through gardens tied
>>by water over rocks,
>>
>>I would not care to make a rhyme
>>to design a scheme of rhythm
>>by word or prose claim exclamation
>>or triplets of alliteration.
>>
>>If I was a Chinese poet
>>I'd write with color shape and size
>>each word placed to please the eye
>>to contemplate that silent sea
>>of soundless unspoken imagery.
>>
>>
>>
>>9/96
>> - Susan Murray
>
> obnonaxiomofwrittenartsenryu
>
> non-chinese
> susan writes one
> un-chinese
>
> a bad poem
> about good poem
> she can't write
>
> because
> she ain't
> chinese
>
> --Senryu Sid
>
>
>>
Marek Lugowski
Greg, Halloween is for children, and they usually dont dress up as Bigot.
On the other hand, it's Chicago so we can do anything, yes? But you are
early by a day. Must be Nearly Stiff Savings Time.
take no prisoners. they might rot and then you have a mess on your hands.
-- Marek
--
------------------- : http://www.enteract.com/~marek : ------------------
1. clickable geomap : magical mystery tour last add : Kristie's postcard
2. also : HalinaFAQ: Halina Pos'wiatowska Translation Project
3. and : A Small Garlic Press (ASGP): a 501c3 Nonprofit Corp
scraw...@worldnet.att.net
> Some Other Axiom of the Written Art
>
> If I was a Chinese poet
> with a small book in my pocket
> looking through gardens tied
> by water over rocks,
>
> I would not care to make a rhyme
> to design a scheme of rhythm
> by word or prose claim exclamation
> or triplets of alliteration.
>
> If I was a Chinese poet
> I'd write with color shape and size
> each word placed to please the eye
> to contemplate that silent sea
> of soundless unspoken imagery.
>
>
>
> 9/96
> - Susan Murray
>
"If I were..."
I like "looking through gardens tied /by water over rocks," in every
respect but the line break. "Gardens tied," with the line end where it
is, reads like a grammatical inversion however it is corrected by the
rest of the phrase in the next line. With the line length you're using,
however, I see no simple, or at least obvious, solution. It feels like
a problem because it is the only occurrence of its type in the poem.
I, too, sometimes wish for other elements than meter and rhyme, but
meter (because it is a stressed language) and rhyme (because sound
identity usually has nothing to do with grammar) are what we've got.
Because neither Mandarin nor Cantonese are stressed (they are tonal),
they simply refuse to exhibit rhythm (though the Japanese use syllable
count in shorter lines and forms). And rhyme is impossible to maintain
because Chinese and Japanese grammar insist on placing the principal
verb as the last word in the sentence, and this will sound only like
what it must sound like, only accidentally like another line ending.
Fenollosa and Pound "invented" the modern "form" of "free verse" by
translating Oriental verses -- and leaving the word order and the line
breaks almost exactly as they found them in the original. We are thus
trying to write in an essentially-foreign format, and by leaving out
the sonic indications of the rhetorical periods once common to English
verse, we begin even to lose the /grammar/ of English, besides losing
the incredible richness of the spoken /song/ possible to the Indo-
European tongues.
Your last stanza's content is quite difficult. I understand it says
you want to paint (perhaps to paint Chinese ideograms?) rather than
speak. But good poetry speaks primarily in images and figures rather
than assertions, and so your wish is fulfilled in verse if you only
do it that way. Your wish is interesting in that much Oriental verse
is traditionally accompanied by elegant drawings, and the converse.
"Or triplets of alliteration"... You read Old High A.S.? Wow.
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> web www.andrew.cmu.edu/~smurray
If you preface this URL with http:// it becomes a clickable link --
if that's what you want. Have you poems at that site?
dmh
Bruce Tindall
>with a small book in my pocket
>looking through gardens tied
>by water over rocks,
>
>I would not care to make a rhyme
>to design a scheme of rhythm
>by word or prose claim exclamation
>or triplets of alliteration.
Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about that.
From The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics_,
s.v. "Chinese Poetry":
"[In the Chinese _Classic of Poetry_,] the number of characters
in each line determines the meter....Rhyme schemes are fairly
complex and varied at times, but the usual pattern is abcb....
Other recurrent auditory devices include alliteration...."
The article goes on to enumerate various other styles of
classical Chinese poetry, many of which employ regular rhyme
and meter, as well as specific patterns of tone (a feature
of the Chinese spoken language).
Of course, many modern Chinese poets write outside of the
classical prosodic patterns -- "free verse", if you will.
But then, they tend not to write about the types of subject
matter mentioned in this poem, so I assumed that the imaginary
Chinese poet postulated here was pre-20th-century, in which
case rhyme, regular rhythm, alliteration, and many, many other
formal devices would almost certainly have been present.
--
Bruce Tindall tin...@panix.com
G52 US101
when it come to the art of fine eating,
'm an avid intern of said experiences,
one of few of the too many interships
yours truly hold in your world.
Having said that, may i suggest,
when it comes to PORTABELLA
mushrooms, the size of large melon,
the city of Roses has them by the tons.
I should know, i had them for brunch.
Truly
G52 US101
If an intern may pose a question
to the Proffessor of rap, whom i
hold highest respect in technical
knowledge of Poetry. Your statement
.."But GOOD poetry speaks primarily
in IMAGES and FIGURES rather than
assertions,......" makes me wonder the
purpose and the criteria by which one
should attempt to understand and/or
write a "good" poetry.
If i may say, that statement rather seem
to reduce, diminish, the potential means
by which human may communicate;
that which has been felt,
that which has been realized,
that which has been sought,
that which has been seen,
that whcih has been expressed,
ect.
In my opinion, if images and figures
are the preferred means, then i would
think that more profound concepts
contained in words and choices of
words in creating poetry, would be
severly curtailed.
Furthermore, to fully exploit potency
of poetry, to use all means possible,
to communicate by the writer to the
reader, by the sender to the receiver,
may enhance the art of powerful
expression by use of words. This
may also open creativity door to
new ideas.
Even may bring more human into the
world of words.
intern
Jeannekhan
as none seem nearby...but then David shops,
I buy...;>
Lucky you, brunching...at home or out?
if too busy bodyish, please ignore.
Saw your post relative to images et al.
Food for thought there...struggle with
that myself. Telling instead of showing
makes writers ground bound instead of
free falling through space of a cloud
or whatever...;>I have read some obsure
poems here and in LA Times Book Review section..no concrete clue as to why I
would even read all the way through..Heaney
and Pinsky easy reads compared to some
allusions to nothing...cotton candy...not transparent, but sticky and these are
excerpts from published works in the Times...:> Like, who would buy them?
But I keep reading, surely there's a donkey or pony in that room...:> .
Jeanne
>Subject: Re: Some Other Axiom of this Written Art
>From: G52U...@webtv.net (G52 US101)
>Date: 10/30/98 6:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <9664-363...@newsd-222.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
scraw...@worldnet.att.net
To quote Housman, "I tell the tale that I heard told." It worked for
300 years of English poetry, and it works for me.
Sure, one can use the words that merely name emotions and ideas, and
get as a result what is merely versified prose. But the method also
restricts the new poet, in what we may hope to be an advancing culture
with (hopefully) brand-new things to write about (at least on occasion,
hmm?) to the names that are already in the dictionary or the common
speech.
But you may have noticed that /most/ of the words in the best poetry
are merely descriptive; new images need to be explained, to be worked
into the rest of the poem and into the language.
And as for that, do we already know all there is to know about the
old stuff?
dmh
Stuart Leichter
<scraw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> To quote Housman, "I tell the tale that I heard told."
I thought Housman said, "[Smith, Barney] make money the old-fashioned way:
they earn it".
--
Stuart Leichter
Gayle
I'm Chinese, and I must say I was fairly amused by your piece. I believe you
were referring to Chinese calligraphy (shu1 fa3) in the last stanza? Judging
from the Chinese poems I've read, mostly Tang dynasty ones, there _is_ a
"scheme of rhythm" to be found. And Chinese calligraphy isn't just about
looking pretty, content counts too. My first impression on reading your poem
is that it's very non-Chinese in perspective. Sort of "wannabe-ish".
I've taken Chinese calligraphy classes before (still can't handle a brush),
and here's my own "ode of sorts" to the Chinese script.
-Chinese Calligraphy-
Velvet ink upon
silken scrolls of white,
each loving brush
a telling stroke of
art and artist.