Theory on the Brain/ Poetic "Flow" ?
Amanda Rachelle Warren
everybody, here goes my complaint:
Max "the bombastic" (btw love the verb ;)) wrote something like: " And it
even has a poetic flow" about one of his poems. I am not here to nitpick
on him specifically because I have heard poetic "flow" used a couple of
times in the ng, his quote just happened to be the most recent. Ok What
is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW? (this is me
thinking aloud, you know considering it.) I think that if someone told me
my poem flowed I would consider it a disaster. This is not a semantics
argument, well maybe it is...I am not sure, I am asking...do poems flow?
No, they have rhythm. The ink might flow from the pen, the thought might
flow from your mind, and if I were gonna quote the famous (wordsworth)
"(the) spontanious overflow of powerful emotion" just might be
"recollected in tranquility", but my poems better have rhythm somewhere.
Perhaps it is just the wrong words for the same things, both? Whatchu
think?
err,
amanda
"and then all they did was the
mighty HeeBee-JeeBee's"
-j r sherman
Marek Lugowski
You're wrong on this one, gf. Other things with rhythm flow; check
the lunar calendar. ;) I for my own poems like to liken them to cascades
in rhythm and meter and song. Yes, like waterfalls, you know, the
structured watercourse ways that ...gasp ...flow. You just got hung up
on one metaphor. Music has a rhythm to it. It can be given as a structure
in flows. A Rio Carnaval dancer definitely is a sculputure in flow. Just
watch her ass.
-- Marek
--
------------------- : http://www.enteract.com/~marek : ------------------
1. clickable geomap : magical mystery tour last add : Kristie's postcard
2. also : HalinaFAQ: Halina Pos'wiatowska Translation Project
3. and : A Small Garlic Press (ASGP): a 501c3 Nonprofit Corp
Nodayus
wrote:
>
> Amanda Rachelle Warren
>>Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW? (this is me
>>thinking aloud, you know considering it.) I think that if someone told me
>>my poem flowed I would consider it a disaster. This is not a semantics
>>argument, well maybe it is...I am not sure, I am asking...do poems flow?
>>No, they have rhythm. The ink might flow from the pen, the thought might
>>flow from your mind, and if I were gonna quote the famous (wordsworth)
>>"(the) spontanious overflow of powerful emotion" just might be
>>"recollected in tranquility", but my poems better have rhythm somewhere.
>>Perhaps it is just the wrong words for the same things, both? Whatchu
>>think?
>>
>
>the lunar calendar. ;) I for my own poems like to liken them to cascades
>in rhythm and meter and song. Yes, like waterfalls, you know, the
>structured watercourse ways that ...gasp ...flow. You just got hung up
>on one metaphor. Music has a rhythm to it. It can be given as a structure
>in flows. A Rio Carnaval dancer definitely is a sculputure in flow. Just
>watch her ass.
>
In the vein Charles Fort used to claim
there are no absolute differences -- there's
some water in all soil samples and some dirt
in all natural water samples, so ocean and
land aren't fully distinct -- I agree you could
call all dancers sculptures in motion.
And all sculptures are kinetic or frozen
reflections of dance, or some kind of
perceived motion, probably.
But carrying that a long way can make it
pretty difficult to talk about anything in
particular, as opposed to any other thing
in particular. At some point, it's a good idea
to agree there's some difference between a
dancer and a sculpture, the "poetry in
motion" song notwithstanding or
notwithflowing.
That's my quickie take on part of this. I
think Amanda and Marek make points on
flow & poetry worth some thought.
One idea -- poems soaked in gravity are
more likely to flow; poems pumped
with levity more likely to float.
But then, shit floats, too, so where do we
go? There's a little water in every shit, and
a little shit in every bucket of ocean, so is it
all an ocean of shit?
... well, the ideas spiral on...
-- Dale Bloom
~~ Seen the new silent, black & white version of Fantasia yet? ~~
Greg Jungheim
<aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>Although I have a feeling that I am about to get a royal bitching at by
>everybody, here goes my complaint:
>
>Max "the bombastic" (btw love the verb ;)) wrote something like: " And it
>even has a poetic flow" about one of his poems. I am not here to nitpick
>on him specifically because I have heard poetic "flow" used a couple of
>times in the ng, his quote just happened to be the most recent. Ok What
>is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW? (this is me
>thinking aloud, you know considering it.) I think that if someone told me
>my poem flowed I would consider it a disaster. This is not a semantics
>argument, well maybe it is...I am not sure, I am asking...do poems flow?
>No, they have rhythm. The ink might flow from the pen, the thought might
>flow from your mind, and if I were gonna quote the famous (wordsworth)
>"(the) spontanious overflow of powerful emotion" just might be
>"recollected in tranquility", but my poems better have rhythm somewhere.
>Perhaps it is just the wrong words for the same things, both? Whatchu
>think?
>
>err,
>amanda
Amanda chile,
You are wise beyond your years.
Obverycrudebuttraditionalsenryu
urine just flows
semen ejaculates--
poem rhythm
--Senryu (sexy-old) Sid
Peter Stewart Richards
Nodayus skrev i meldingen <19990212023534...@ng134.aol.com>...
> ma...@enteract.com (Marek Lugowski)
>wrote:
>>
>> Amanda Rachelle Warren:
>>
>>>Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
Marek :
>>A Rio Carnaval dancer definitely is a sculputure in flow. Just
>>watch her ass.
>>
>
Dale:
> think Amanda and Marek make points on
> flow & poetry worth some thought.
>
And I think this is a nice, cosy thread and I've often said that poems
flow and I think flow is good for poems and I think they flow I think poems
flow. Sometimes they don't.
I don't care what the Times Literary Supplement says, just remember you
heard it here first: Not All Poems Are The Same.
One could always wade through Richard D. Cureton's *Rythmic Phrasing In
English Verse*, or indeed any other book really, thus demonstrating to
oneself that the difficulty of the wading is inversely proportionate to the
flow because prose flows too. Which is nice.
Many theses elided.
p
Antti Luode
>>is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW? (this is me
>>thinking aloud, you know considering it.) I think that if someone
I think it depens on the person. Some of us are more logical, they
think about
the dots and commas and about the laws of poetry.. And they mix a little bit
of
creativity in.. They reach towards perfection.. Trying to do that can create
a flow of its own.. A flow towards perfection..
But then there are persons that would like to leave the logic behind,
because they are not inspired by anything logical.. You know..
Maybe we (I belong to this group), are trying to write music, with words..
"poetic flow" to me is a state of mind where I can have a dialoge
with my emotions
its maybe close to schizophrenia.. But I have it under control.. Its like
two stars
wobbling around each other, and you could change their masses with just a
will,
so that you could make the other one heavier for a while, so that it could
slingshot
them both on a direction you want.. Controlled, I can reach for example a
state of
mind where "I become one" with my depression, or joy.. The poem is a tool
for
doing it, it is in a liquid state, I can delete lines from it, I can add to
it, I can decide, where
"I want to go" with it.
Beethovens "moonlight sonata" in adagio with piano is a example of
this done
to the extreme, it has nothing good on it, it is like this landscape of
depression, and
even as it is a song, to me, it is what I would like to do with a poem..
Heck.. I should
have learned to play that piano.. :)
Last night, I saw a program from Discovery channel, where they
explained the
near death experiences. People remember seeing bright lights and hearing
their
grandmas, friends relatives in a "fog".. In the dying brain, we propably
finally lose
control of our egoes, and we melt in to these memories, sights and sounds we
have gathered for a lifetime.. And in the end, everything, from the persons
to
the tree to the moon to the flower.. Are just electro chemically stored
memories
in liquid state.. It all boils down to waves.. To intesities of emotion, to
strength of
electrical charges.. If there is no God.. That is what we are.. And ego, my
lego
me :) is like this function, that we can manipulate to "surf the brain", in
our own
distinctive styles..
Madness, it is just ego gone crazy, you can give it a electric shock,
you can put some lithium to brain to make it behave.. Madness reminds me
of cardiac arrythmia, nerves that are no longer in touch with the whole..
Even as I would like to be a poet, madness is where I draw the line,
some follow the "poetic flow" over that line though... Where it becomes
a ego of its own, it takes control.. As if.. "poetic flow" was this road
to internal change..
I began to follow this thought as a flow.. Right now, I am in a barrel,
:) whole of my being cares about the question, "what is poetic flow"..
You know.. I have to cool down, and not drink another cup for at least
two hours.. :)
:)
A.
(Heavily caffeinated)
Amanda Rachelle Warren
>
> Amanda Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>
> >Although I have a feeling that I am about to get a royal bitching at by
> >everybody, here goes my complaint:
> >
> >Max "the bombastic" (btw love the verb ;)) wrote something like: " And it
> >even has a poetic flow" about one of his poems. I am not here to nitpick
> >on him specifically because I have heard poetic "flow" used a couple of
> >times in the ng, his quote just happened to be the most recent. Ok What
> >is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW? (this is me
> >thinking aloud, you know considering it.) I think that if someone told me
> >my poem flowed I would consider it a disaster. This is not a semantics
> >argument, well maybe it is...I am not sure, I am asking...do poems flow?
> >No, they have rhythm. The ink might flow from the pen, the thought might
> >flow from your mind, and if I were gonna quote the famous (wordsworth)
> >"(the) spontanious overflow of powerful emotion" just might be
> >"recollected in tranquility", but my poems better have rhythm somewhere.
> >Perhaps it is just the wrong words for the same things, both? Whatchu
> >think?
> >
> >err,
> >amanda
>
> You're wrong on this one, gf. Other things with rhythm flow; check
> the lunar calendar. ;) I for my own poems like to liken them to cascades
> in rhythm and meter and song. Yes, like waterfalls, you know, the
> structured watercourse ways that ...gasp ...flow. You just got hung up
> on one metaphor. Music has a rhythm to it. It can be given as a structure
> in flows. A Rio Carnaval dancer definitely is a sculputure in flow. Just
> watch her ass.
>
> -- Marek
I am most likely hung up on metaphor...but I am going to maintain my
position that the rhythm in poems attempts to mimic flow. Flow seems to
suggest a shapeless thing without rhythm, you say yourself a structured
watercourse, and mention the liquid motion of a dancer to Carnaval music,
but it is the structure which gives the watercourse its appeal, and the
beat in the carnaval music which allows for the beauty of the dance...if
that girl had no rhythm her ass would not be as fun to watch. We could
disagree all night, and I would only love it more. ;).
just a lil' masochist some days,
Amanda
> --
> ------------------- : http://www.enteract.com/~marek : ------------------
> 1. clickable geomap : magical mystery tour last add : Kristie's postcard
> 2. also : HalinaFAQ: Halina Pos'wiatowska Translation Project
> 3. and : A Small Garlic Press (ASGP): a 501c3 Nonprofit Corp
>
>
"and then all they did was the
Dan Eble
> "recollected in tranquility", but my poems better have rhythm somewhere.
> Perhaps it is just the wrong words for the same things, both? Whatchu
> think?
Poetry that doesn't rhyme isn't worth a dirty dime.
Poetry that has no meter doesn't merit money either.
If you aim to pay for verse, you'll keep your receipt, of course,
For if you find the verse too slack, you can get your money back.
--
__ ___ _ ____ _ __
| \/-||\| |-|<.| |- Please use this address:
`-'` '` ` `-`-'`-`-' <eb...@ticalc.org>
Bruce Tindall
>Ok What is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
This is a peeve of mine, too. I don't know exactly what people mean
when they talk about a poem "flowing". The New Princeton Encyclopedia
of Poetry and Poetics doesn't define it. It often seems to be used
as a vague term of approval for a particular poem's or line's rhythm.
But there exists a large established vocabulary for talking about
the rhythm (and many other attributes) of both metered and free verse
with more specificity than the word "flow" conveys, so why not use it?
--
Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
SLL
wrote:
I don't use it because I don't have it. I'm gonna get eggheaded here
cuz I'm in the mood to feel tough about my thoughts.
All this talk of flowing, rhythms, meter reminds me of a bed. Why
just the other day I washed my sheets. That's what I did. And I
machine dried them too. Now, here's the horrible thing. I didn't
iron them. Get this. They are 100% cotton sheets. And get this. I
tossed them on my bed without bothering to spread them out or make my
bed.
Okay, my biggest sin in the whole wide world is that I'm not direct.
I tell ya, it's not that I'm like this knowingly. It's that that's
how I think. I don't know how to come to conclusions without talking
about seemingly unrelated things. So, I think of this bed and my
wrinkled sheets, and I get this HUGELY great idea as I sit here and
write. Well, it sounds huge right now.
you guys following me yet?
I'm spilling over here, and it's getting messing. That's my point. I
think. I suppose a good flow, overflow, what have you, is like what I
think (I usually have to think in this case) what Marek was saying.
So, when I invite company, and they see my wrinkly cottony sheets
practically balled up on my bed, I'm inviting thoughts of , of , of ,
whatever their thoughts go. and that's poetry.
SLL (bored while the votes were being counted)
Marek Lugowski
Bruce Tindall <tin...@panix.com> wrote:
>Amanda Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>>Ok What is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
>
>This is a peeve of mine, too. I don't know exactly what people mean
>when they talk about a poem "flowing". The New Princeton Encyclopedia
>of Poetry and Poetics doesn't define it. It often seems to be used
>as a vague term of approval for a particular poem's or line's rhythm.
>But there exists a large established vocabulary for talking about
>the rhythm (and many other attributes) of both metered and free verse
>with more specificity than the word "flow" conveys, so why not use it?
>
>Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
That's a very frumpy take on language. Just because a large established
vocabulary exists we are enjoined from using other language to use in its
place! Isn't it a cornerstone of art to overthrow its vocabulary all the
time? Abstract expressionists did not use realism's vocabulary, but yet,
I suppose, could have.
Instead of being pevish, Bruce, consider lending an understanding to
why "flow" may significantly refer to heterogeneous qualities of poetry
that involve rhythm as well as sibilance combined. Or something. Tongue
twisters -- do they flow?
-- Marek
Antonio de Campos
or not.
It can be the natural phonetic "flow" of the language, the words. Even if
the poem is but read silently, the sounds are produced in part in your mind.
An added difficulty when translating, for different languages have different
"flows". There are languages that "flow" much easier than others.
It can be the "flow" of images produced by the poem. Or, the "flow" of mood,
intensity, logic, etc…
It can be the "flow" in syntax form. The phrases and sentences bonded
without straining.
It can be the "flow" of rhythm, of rhyme.
And many more…
As a common denominator to all types of "poetic flow" is the harmonious link
between the sequential elements. To combine all the possible types
simultaneously will result in a "super flow".
Antonio
Dies et Nox.
Amanda Rachelle Warren wrote in message ...
>Although I have a feeling that I am about to get a royal bitching at by
>everybody, here goes my complaint:
>
>Max "the bombastic" (btw love the verb ;)) wrote something like: " And it
>even has a poetic flow" about one of his poems. I am not here to nitpick
>on him specifically because I have heard poetic "flow" used a couple of
>times in the ng, his quote just happened to be the most recent. Ok What
>is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW? (this is me
>thinking aloud, you know considering it.) I think that if someone told me
>my poem flowed I would consider it a disaster. This is not a semantics
>argument, well maybe it is...I am not sure, I am asking...do poems flow?
>No, they have rhythm. The ink might flow from the pen, the thought might
>flow from your mind, and if I were gonna quote the famous (wordsworth)
>"(the) spontanious overflow of powerful emotion" just might be
>"recollected in tranquility", but my poems better have rhythm somewhere.
>Perhaps it is just the wrong words for the same things, both? Whatchu
>think?
>
>err,
>amanda
SLL
<aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>On 12 Feb 1999, Marek Lugowski wrote:
>>Yes, like waterfalls, you know, the
>> structured watercourse ways that ...gasp ...flow. You just got hung up
>> on one metaphor. Music has a rhythm to it. It can be given as a structure
>> in flows. A Rio Carnaval dancer definitely is a sculputure in flow. Just
>> watch her ass.
>>
>> -- Marek
>
>I am most likely hung up on metaphor...but I am going to maintain my
>position that the rhythm in poems attempts to mimic flow. Flow seems to
>suggest a shapeless thing without rhythm, you say yourself a structured
>watercourse, and mention the liquid motion of a dancer to Carnaval music,
>but it is the structure which gives the watercourse its appeal, and the
>beat in the carnaval music which allows for the beauty of the dance...if
>that girl had no rhythm her ass would not be as fun to watch. We could
>disagree all night, and I would only love it more. ;).
Marek,
Forgive me. You may be thinking of a structured watercourse leading
to a waterfall as both manmade and "god"made. Let's not argue man and
godmade are the same, but can we assume godmade is random, for a
moment? I'm trying to pick apart the word structure. My circuits are
frying while comparing and contrasting structured and random.
I know you've seen a natural waterfall. You've been to GNP. I leap
to understand you know of natural flow as evidenced in your lunar
statement. This is the structure of nature.
and music?? forget it. I can't discuss much. I feel I disagree w/
you on music and rhythm. Then again, that rhythmless junk some call
music isn't music to me. But does this mean it's not music? That's
it. No more. :)
Amanda,
(with a slight variation, your name sounds like random; don't ask me
what I do with the "r," "m," "n," "o," did I miss anything?)
The dancer's ass would not be as much fun to watch, but a
well-sculptured ass is fun watching regardless of rhythm. I love
still pictures of asses.
and a jiggly, globby, unformed ball of clay bodied dancer with
excellent rhythm and moves is entertaining indeed. however, I may
find myself distracted in contrasting ways. Horrible of me I know,
but I'd be thinking of cellulite and stuff. and I'm a little ashamed.
but I'd also think, man! that girl can move!
Everyone else reading this thread,
Does it flow?
SLL
Amanda Rachelle Warren
> In article <7a1kq6$6a3$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> Bruce Tindall <tin...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Amanda Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
> >>Ok What is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
> >
> >This is a peeve of mine, too. I don't know exactly what people mean
> >when they talk about a poem "flowing". The New Princeton Encyclopedia
> >of Poetry and Poetics doesn't define it. It often seems to be used
> >as a vague term of approval for a particular poem's or line's rhythm.
> >But there exists a large established vocabulary for talking about
> >the rhythm (and many other attributes) of both metered and free verse
> >with more specificity than the word "flow" conveys, so why not use it?
> >
> >--
> >Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
>
>
> That's a very frumpy take on language. Just because a large established
> vocabulary exists we are enjoined from using other language to use in its
> place! Isn't it a cornerstone of art to overthrow its vocabulary all the
> time? Abstract expressionists did not use realism's vocabulary, but yet,
> I suppose, could have.
Yes! Agreeing, I am trying to overthrow flow. I am a poetic
iconoclast...well not that extreme, but isn't it interesting to think
about...all of it? It is good to question rather than say..."ah, its the
convention, just go with the (he he) flow." Art questions, and look at all
the great answers which have come from this lil thread. It is the little
things, the metaphors we use and resist which make us so very very
interesting.
> Instead of being pevish, Bruce, consider lending an understanding to
> why "flow" may significantly refer to heterogeneous qualities of poetry
> that involve rhythm as well as sibilance combined. Or something. Tongue
> twisters -- do they flow?
>
> -- Marek
Here is where I publicly declare my adoration, ok? Marek, you are SO
cool. See this is a better question...do tongue twisters flow? Do they
spill out quickly and that's why they fall overthemselveseverywhere?
Or...do they not flow, instead the words jambing over eachother in the
flowing outwards of mouth&breath&tongue&teeth&syllables?
Adoring always,
amanda
> ------------------- : http://www.enteract.com/~marek : ------------------
> 1. clickable geomap : magical mystery tour last add : Kristie's postcard
> 2. also : HalinaFAQ: Halina Pos'wiatowska Translation Project
> 3. and : A Small Garlic Press (ASGP): a 501c3 Nonprofit Corp
>
>
"and then all they did was the
Jody McGinness
> In article <7a1kq6$6a3$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> Bruce Tindall <tin...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Amanda Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
> >>Ok What is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
> >
> >This is a peeve of mine, too. I don't know exactly what people mean
> >when they talk about a poem "flowing". The New Princeton Encyclopedia
> >of Poetry and Poetics doesn't define it. It often seems to be used
> >as a vague term of approval for a particular poem's or line's rhythm.
> >But there exists a large established vocabulary for talking about
> >the rhythm (and many other attributes) of both metered and free verse
> >with more specificity than the word "flow" conveys, so why not use it?
> >
> >--
> >Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
>
>
> That's a very frumpy take on language. Just because a large established
> vocabulary exists we are enjoined from using other language to use in its
> place! Isn't it a cornerstone of art to overthrow its vocabulary all the
> time? Abstract expressionists did not use realism's vocabulary, but yet,
> I suppose, could have.
>
> Instead of being pevish, Bruce, consider lending an understanding to
> why "flow" may significantly refer to heterogeneous qualities of poetry
> that involve rhythm as well as sibilance combined. Or something. Tongue
> twisters -- do they flow?
>
> -- Marek
Flowing Past the Poem
What kind of tabulation does
this require? A pausing definition
of unidentified free-lance
verse. It could be worse.
It could be each sentence
like a train on a trestle churns
out and on
avoiding plosives
and commas
and capital rules
(but rhythm's just another word
for nothin left to lose).
And the question poses itself
like a coat-hanger-bodied runway
model - why quantify? Begs an answer
in this forum, an answer for him,
poetic flow is
pathetic and low,
an excuse for bad poetry. You see,
you must learn to walk
before you fly, and you must concentrate,
to be a jedi.
-Jiggidy Jody, they Rhyming Idiot
You know, I really have no opinion to opine, just a senseless ditty.
> --
> ------------------- : http://www.enteract.com/~marek : ------------------
> 1. clickable geomap : magical mystery tour last add : Kristie's postcard
> 2. also : HalinaFAQ: Halina Pos'wiatowska Translation Project
> 3. and : A Small Garlic Press (ASGP): a 501c3 Nonprofit Corp
>
>
-----Jody McGinness-----
giddyap.
RSommo
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.99021...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>, Amanda
Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
>What
>is "poetic flow"?
I always thought it was the flow of ideas. I suppose
it could also apply to the flow of images. I have never
considered it in relation to language or meter (presence
or absence of). Maybe I should. (But I probably won't.)
Lazily,
R.
http://members.aol.com/rsommo/Cover.htm
Jody McGinness
In article <7a1kq6$6a3$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
Bruce Tindall <tin...@panix.com> wrote:
Amanda Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
What is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
This is a peeve of mine,
too. I don't know exactly
what people mean
if Poetry and Poetics
don't define it. It often seems
there exists a
rhythm
so why not use it?
That's a very frumpy take
on a large established
vocabulary.
We are enjoined from using
its art to overthrow
its abstract expressionism.
Did not realism's vocabulary
suppose, we could have?
I overthrow flow. I am a poetic
iconoclast. Extreme, but think about
it. It is good to question rather convention.
Art questions, all
great answers, which come
from the metaphors we use
and resist
which make us so very
interesting.
Instead of being, consider lending,
an understanding to
why flow may
significantly
involve rhythm as well
Tongue twisters
publicly declare
a question...do tongues flow?
Do they
spill out quick-
ly and fall
overthemselveseverywhere?
Do they not flow, words jambing
over eachother in the
flowing outwards of
mouth
breath
tongue
teeth
syllables...
Feeling the flow. (not doing the bull-dance)
-Jody
-----Jody McGinness-----
giddyap.
SLL
>
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.99021...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>, Amanda
>Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
>
>>What
>>is "poetic flow"?
>
>I always thought it was the flow of ideas. I suppose
>it could also apply to the flow of images. I have never
>considered it in relation to language or meter (presence
>or absence of). Maybe I should. (But I probably won't.)
>
>Lazily,
>R.
>
>http://members.aol.com/rsommo/Cover.htm
l(a
le
af
fa
ll
s)
one
l
iness
e.e. cummings of course
this is an oldie but a goodie example. there is a difference between
flow and rhythm.
I think poems like this are possible since the advent of print.
rhythmy flowy poems before print were necessary to maintain oral
tradition and the stories.
I'm over simplifying I'm sure.
SLL
termite
> Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
Many do. Some are short and placid - a haiku doesn't have time to flow
anywhere. Some are the equivalent of hand grenades. Some are more
like mad spews then flows. I think of flow as being more to do with
the ideas and images in a poem, how one goes to another, "instanter" or
not than with the rhythm, which is describable more accurately in
terms of meter. And I don't think that the "flow" should always be
flowing. Sometimes it should be rough as hell.
It's a vague word and a vague concept and therefore hard to talk about
and hard to judge poetry by ...
--
"No matter how much I went rooting around for news, I wouldn't
necessarily come closer to the truth."
-- Kobo Abe'
http://www.net-link.net/~termite
Amanda Rachelle Warren
> On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Amanda Rachelle Warren wrote:
> On 12 Feb 1999, Marek Lugowski wrote:
> In article <7a1kq6$6a3$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> Bruce Tindall <tin...@panix.com> wrote:
> Amanda Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>
> What is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW?
Working it, working it.
He he he,
amanda
This is funny.
>
> -----Jody McGinness-----
>
> giddyap.
>
>
>
"rhythm's just another word for
nothing left to lose." -Jody McGuinness
Max King
Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
>
>Although I have a feeling that I am about to get a royal bitching at by
>everybody, here goes my complaint:
>
>Max "the bombastic" (btw love the verb ;)) wrote something like: " And it
>even has a poetic flow" about one of his poems. I am not here to nitpick
>on him specifically because I have heard poetic "flow" used a couple of
>times in the ng, his quote just happened to be the most recent. Ok What
>is "poetic flow"? Do poems flow? DO poems flow? do poems FLOW? (this is me
>thinking aloud, you know considering it.) I think that if someone told me
>my poem flowed I would consider it a disaster. This is not a semantics
>argument, well maybe it is...I am not sure, I am asking...do poems flow?
>No, they have rhythm. The ink might flow from the pen, the thought might
>flow from your mind, and if I were gonna quote the famous (wordsworth)
>"(the) spontanious overflow of powerful emotion" just might be
>"recollected in tranquility", but my poems better have rhythm somewhere.
>Perhaps it is just the wrong words for the same things, both? Whatchu
>think?
>
>err,
>amanda
>
Hey 'manda, some nice comments about 'flow' from a variety of
knowledgeable folks. But since I instigated the word, I thought I might
throw in my plug nickel. To me 'flow' means a few things. For one, definetly
poetic rhythm, including meter, rhyme, and overall structure. Second
word flow, or how words work with each other. Word flow can be
important, the smoother the flow of words the closer I feel it comes to
poetry. Of course this isn't the only criteria for good poetry, but it
helps. And third the flow of images. This can also improve the 'feel'
or the understanding of the poem.
Someone also made a few comments on my final point. The spoken word.
The tradition of spoken verse or oral reading of poetry can also tell
you something about how a poem flows. After all poetry is meant to be
heard not just read. Personally I know when something flow or does not.
Maybe I should call it streaming ...
I'll try to post the fourth piece that I tried to post in this
series. It is based more on a rap influence. Rap, though some may not
consider poetry, has a distinctive flow. Well, all's said I'll get back
to my bombastic lifestyle....
-Max (who sometimes flows stronger than diahrea)
Marek Lugowski
Amanda Rachelle Warren <aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>> Instead of being pevish, Bruce, consider lending an understanding to
>> why "flow" may significantly refer to heterogeneous qualities of poetry
>> that involve rhythm as well as sibilance combined. Or something. Tongue
>> twisters -- do they flow?
>>
>> -- Marek
>
>Here is where I publicly declare my adoration, ok? Marek, you are SO
>cool. See this is a better question...do tongue twisters flow? Do they
>spill out quickly and that's why they fall overthemselveseverywhere?
>Or...do they not flow, instead the words jambing over eachother in the
>flowing outwards of mouth&breath&tongue&teeth&syllables?
There is a whole science of emergent phenomena such as studiend at the
Santa Fe Institute (see their series on Complexity) where people are
trying to understand our poetic "flow" and measure it in a useful way
so as to categorize usefully various spaces of complexity and possibly
arrive at a predictive science applicable to a given field.
For example, "la la la la" and so on has a certain complexity, and I
could given it a measure of complexity that would differ from a measure
of "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain." repeated ad infinitum
as well. IN deed, it may already be old hat in so far as scientists in
computer science study formal languages and both of these, if restricted
just to their tokens (in this case, words without meaning), could be
taken as examples of regular languages, of substantially the same complexity.
Stuff like that, and stuff like "is this breaking up icefiled as flowing
as this other congealed one in a glacier." So literature is subject to
the new sciences and a rich vocabulary for describing meter is not enough
to describe things. Writing on behalf of "flow" though not on how Max
has used it, I remain ever so flowing
-- Marek
SLL
> And I don't think that the "flow" should always be
>flowing. Sometimes it should be rough as hell.
>
>It's a vague word and a vague concept and therefore hard to talk about
>and hard to judge poetry by ...
White water rapids are "rough as hell." They flow.
SLL
Bruce Tindall
>That's a very frumpy take on language.
As a professional curmudgeon, I'll take that as a glowing (but not
flowing) compliment; thank you.
>Instead of being pevish, Bruce, consider lending an understanding to
>why "flow" may significantly refer to heterogeneous qualities of poetry
>that involve rhythm as well as sibilance combined. Or something.
I'd be happy to do so if I could figure out what the heck people
mean by "flow", but, as this thread has shown, there isn't anything
approaching a common definition. In some people's usage, it's a
meaningless word; other people have ideas of what they mean by it, but
there are many different such ideas, so at present the word is pretty
worthless as a means of communication.
Maybe one of the many definitions of "flow" will eventually be
generally accepted. Until then, I'll get more out of a discussion
of a poem if people talk about "rhythm", "meter", "assonance",
"fricatives", and other things we all know about.
B "Gee, Officer Krupke, frump you" T
--
Bruce Tindall :: tin...@panix.com
termite
SLL
>Sending what seemed to be a string of senseless digital crap, <7a3bkl$4s8$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> nceg...@gte.net (SLL) wrote:
>> On 12 Feb 1999 22:44:06 GMT, ter...@net-link.net (termite) wrote:
>>
>>> And I don't think that the "flow" should always be
>>>flowing. Sometimes it should be rough as hell.
>>>
>>>It's a vague word and a vague concept and therefore hard to talk about
>>>and hard to judge poetry by ...
>>
>> White water rapids are "rough as hell." They flow.
>>
>It's not the water that makes them rough, it's the rocks. They sit.
ooo, that's interesting. I struggle by way of analogous reasoning.
It's so vulnerable to falsehoods and narrow thinking.
The rocks erode, become smooth. they flow.
SLL (loving this test!)
termite
> On 15 Feb 1999 01:23:52 GMT, ter...@net-link.net (termite) wrote:
>
>>Sending what seemed to be a string of senseless digital crap, <7a3bkl$4s8$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
>> nceg...@gte.net (SLL) wrote:
>>> On 12 Feb 1999 22:44:06 GMT, ter...@net-link.net (termite) wrote:
>>>
>>>> And I don't think that the "flow" should always be
>>>>flowing. Sometimes it should be rough as hell.
>>>>
>>>>It's a vague word and a vague concept and therefore hard to talk about
>>>>and hard to judge poetry by ...
>>>
>>> White water rapids are "rough as hell." They flow.
>>>
>>It's not the water that makes them rough, it's the rocks. They sit.
>
> ooo, that's interesting. I struggle by way of analogous reasoning.
> It's so vulnerable to falsehoods and narrow thinking.
>
> The rocks erode, become smooth. they flow.
>
Amanda Rachelle Warren
> On 15 Feb 1999 01:23:52 GMT, ter...@net-link.net (termite) wrote:
>
> >Sending what seemed to be a string of senseless digital crap, <7a3bkl$4s8$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>,
> > nceg...@gte.net (SLL) wrote:
> >> On 12 Feb 1999 22:44:06 GMT, ter...@net-link.net (termite) wrote:
> >>
> >>> And I don't think that the "flow" should always be
> >>>flowing. Sometimes it should be rough as hell.
> >>>
> >>>It's a vague word and a vague concept and therefore hard to talk about
> >>>and hard to judge poetry by ...
> >>
> >> White water rapids are "rough as hell." They flow.
> >>
> >It's not the water that makes them rough, it's the rocks. They sit.
>
> ooo, that's interesting. I struggle by way of analogous reasoning.
> It's so vulnerable to falsehoods and narrow thinking.
>
> The rocks erode, become smooth. they flow.
"Rocks practice the mild yoga of coming smooth....but once you're smooth,
you're dead"
Robert Hass
OOH valentine's kisses for Hass, for rocks and yoga.
sigh,
amanda
>
> SLL (loving this test!)
SLL
>Sending what seemed to be a string of senseless digital crap, <7a8ji5$l3s$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>,
> nceg...@gte.net (SLL) wrote:
>> The rocks erode, become smooth. they flow.
>>
>Well, I guess if you're willing to wait hundreds of years ...
what's a year? hundreds of years?
does a rock wait?
all these questions of time
time flowing, flooding
time standing still
time
standing
still
why, even in death, a human flows
in some form of environmental movement
flow is happening
flow is flowing
some flows flow in what appears to our naked eye as standing still
what's a hundred years to a hundred year old?
no more closer to death than a dividing zygote
waiting years for visual proof
SLL
>> The rocks erode, become smooth. they flow.
>
>"Rocks practice the mild yoga of coming smooth....but once you're smooth,
>you're dead"
>Robert Hass
>
>OOH valentine's kisses for Hass, for rocks and yoga.
>
>sigh,
>amanda
once I'm dead, I'm gonna be the salt of the ocean
and probably fish food, too, in the form of death flakes
mmm, mmm, death flakes for breakfast
got milk?
SLL
Peter Stewart Richards
Flow is dada
da da da
Amanda Rachelle Warren
Thought we were mostly ocean already...mostly dead already too? Death
flakes...can't be a health food.
Out of milk,
Amanda
SLL
<aw31...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, SLL wrote:
>> got milk?
>>
>
>Thought we were mostly ocean already...mostly dead already too? Death
>flakes...can't be a health food.
health depends on for whom the food is. what? sometimes I say the
most psycho - eee - ist things.
ANYway, mostly ocean, mostly dead
already. too. but when I say
when I'm dead
I mean dead
there ain't no mostly 'bout it.
>
>Out of milk,
>Amanda
I have some days where I am sooo prepared!
call me the grim reaper's girl scout.
SLL
SLL
I love dadada. I must revive the dead. here goes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
an abstract quibbling little logic about sky
begin with a blue sky
no a red sky black
grey green spleen deep sky
does it have to have color
beginning with the mind next
why next and while at it why begin at all
then it gets simply complicated
gets sounds the same as begin next then
if it becomes sky
why it gets at all
it's called without example
who said anything about is it's gets
it becomes sky without example
besides colors show sky
not without experience
okay imagine
w h o a there horsey
a horse galloping sky
neighing clickety clack stench
is neither blue red black grey green spleen
without beginning by the way
it's if then not
then if
it's all about
sky
why bring up a horse
vacuum head brain dead
since when is this serious
stop talking since when nonsense
it is sky not this correct
who wanted horse heading into not mentioning time
incorrect
correct and incorrect
it's all about sky sort of
ya -- dadadadada -- da
---
SLL (September 08, 1998)