Deserts and Disharmony C&C please
Randy Scop
This one's not new either.
DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
It seems our bones thirst for dust,
to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
The heaving hills scatter great stones
in their slow migration south.
Here walking the earth’s edge
it’s too bright even with sunglasses.
I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
then turn to white sand at my approach.
Who is that distant image?
Who is it carves the sculptor?
Out here space drops off.
To fathom the infinite know
that disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
upon which the universe up-ends.
The Jinn
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message news:43F15876...@lanternslides.net...
>
>
>
> This one's not new either.
Wow... not very good, either.
I wonder if you'll ever post anything worth reading?
--
AJ - http://clitin.com
(the biggest clit in pornetry)
Sat.Map: http://tinyurl.com/cjo5b
Sick Mind
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote
Is it a sixteen-year-old American kid's idea of Taoism? It is more like Nihilism really. Grow
up, Randy.
Sick Mind
boro...@onaypamsay.att.net
If you buy the things we make better
Without making us buy something
We are all doomed
Randy Scop
Sick Mind wrote:
> "Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote
>
> > This one's not new either.
> >
> >
> >
> > DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
> >
> >
> > Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
> > Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
> >
> > It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> > to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
> >
> > The heaving hills scatter great stones
> > in their slow migration south.
> >
> > Here walking the earth's edge
> > it's too bright even with sunglasses.
> >
> > I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> > then turn to white sand at my approach.
> >
> > Who is that distant image?
> > Who is it carves the sculptor?
> >
> > Out here space drops off.
> > To fathom the infinite know
> >
> > that disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> > upon which the universe up-ends.
>
> Is it a sixteen-year-old American kid's idea of Taoism? It is more like Nihilism really. Grow
> up, Randy.
That bad, huh?
No, it isn't nihilistic unless you consider the human race to be generally nihilistic. Taoist? Hadn't
thought of that. The meaning may be obscure, but it's there. There is something that ties it all
together. It's not just random meaningless images.
Randy Scop
Sick Mind wrote:
> "Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote
>
> > This one's not new either.
> >
> >
> >
> > DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
> >
> >
> > Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
> > Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
> >
> > It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> > to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
> >
> > The heaving hills scatter great stones
> > in their slow migration south.
> >
> > Here walking the earth's edge
> > it's too bright even with sunglasses.
> >
> > I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> > then turn to white sand at my approach.
> >
> > Who is that distant image?
> > Who is it carves the sculptor?
> >
> > Out here space drops off.
> > To fathom the infinite know
> >
> > that disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> > upon which the universe up-ends.
>
> Is it a sixteen-year-old American kid's idea of Taoism? It is more like Nihilism really. Grow
> up, Randy.
When I wrote this, I felt my poems were too obvious, in regard to meaning, and had no no mystery to
them. So I was experimenting with obscurity of meaning. I took some images from a dream I had and
combined them with intentionally vague hints that pointed to what I decided the meaning of the dream
was. I also borrowed philosophical points, which I agree with, from a fairly well-known author---at
least, he was 30 years ago. It was an experiment. I guess it didn't add up to much. But I have never
discovered how to start out from where I *want* to be. I have to start from where I am. If I get a
creative idea, I follow it and see where it leads. I think I learned something in the process of writing
this, but I was never sure how somone else might view it. Maybe it was a dead-end road. Oh well, you
can't tell where a road will lead until you take it.
thanks
I used to not like poems that I considered to be unsolvable in regard to meaning, but now they are some
of my favorites. Of course, if they are too long, I get weary of them. But if they are fairly short, I
will come back to them and read them again and again. I guess I've gotten to where I like a good puzzle.
It makes me feel good when I figure them out.
Randy
Diana
Randy Scop wrote:
> This one's not new either.
>
>
>
> DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>
>
> Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
> Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
I start to ask myself why disengagement is that "double-edged sword".
It isn't clear. Disengagement from what? Deserts, harmony, life?
>
> It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
Our bones thirst for dust. I start to think of a place for rest. What
is a "desert shoal"? Is it a group of people, things, or sea life?
"Ringed in silence"? Why "ringed"?
>
> The heaving hills scatter great stones
> in their slow migration south.
The use of heaving and slow sounds not quite right. "Heaving" and
"slow" are at odds with one another. The hills are heaving and
scattering, but they are moving slowly.
>
> Here walking the earth's edge
> it's too bright even with sunglasses.
Adding the word "sunglasses" in with the other imagery takes me away
from what you might have been saying. It's more modern. Perhaps it's
ok. Now I'm in a Dali picture.
Now there is not thirst or southward movement. Where is "here"? The
completion of the journey to "south"?
>
> I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> then turn to white sand at my approach.
The lakes are burning but turn to white sand when the N approaches?
There is a change. I wonder why.
> Who is that distant image?
> Who is it carves the sculptor?
I like this but it seems out of place. The image is the silver lakes
turning into white sand from the previous lines? Why should the reader
now care about the mystery of "who is it carves the sculptor"?
>
> Out here space drops off.
> To fathom the infinite know
Here? Beyond the place where the "who" carves the sculptor? I feel as
if I transported here without recollection as to how to get "here".
Should I want to know?
That disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> upon which the universe up-ends.
Out of balance. I've got that. What I don't know is how you've got
"here" from "there".
Sherrie Lee
Hi Heather,
I see several allusions (who can tell if they're intentional; but they
suggest an aquaintance with literary experience). Bones to dust had me
pondering at first. Then doubt left with the Pygmalion bit, however,
that's the only one I can say with confidence. Lot can be inferred.
The Jinn
--
AJ - http://clitin.com
(the biggest clit in pornetry)
Sat.Map: http://tinyurl.com/cjo5b
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message news:43F1A5C2...@lanternslides.net...
The Jinn
"Diana" <Diana_of...@excite.com> wrote in message news:1139906075.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
You read this abstract drivel all the way down, hunh?
One thing: randy sure doesn't know the difference between
good and bad poetry. Not his own, not others.
Randy Scop
Diana wrote:
> Randy Scop wrote:
> > This one's not new either.
> >
> >
> >
> > DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
> >
> >
> > Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
> > Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
>
> I start to ask myself why disengagement is that "double-edged sword".
> It isn't clear. Disengagement from what? Deserts, harmony, life?
Now, remember, my *whole point* was to be obscure. Perhaps that’s not a
good thing for a poet to do---especially if he/she wants readers, that is.
But I was writing this for myself. I was experimenting.
Disengagement from life---the big picture---compared to our private little
corners. Hedonism vs. service to humanity. Decadence. It’s the whole idea
that decadence out of control eventually is self-destructive, hence,
double-edged sword. I was reading about Gandhi’s method of Satyagraha at
the time. Satyagraha is nonviolent political action. Action means active.
Satyagrahis are not passive. They very actively seek out injustice and
confront it head on, but nonviolently, and with the ultimate goal of
discovering truth, and, through the discovery of truth, the uplift of all
humanity.
>
>
> >
> > It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> > to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
>
> Our bones thirst for dust. I start to think of a place for rest. What
> is a "desert shoal"? Is it a group of people, things, or sea life?
> "Ringed in silence"? Why "ringed"?
As a species, we sometimes seem bent on our own destruction.
Desertification is the erosion of life itself, the opposite of water,
fertility, greeness, everything we associate with life. Our bones (our
core). At our core, in other words, our self-destructive ways seem to go
to our very core, as a species.
I have been on top of desert mountains and found fossilized shark’s teeth.
I liked the contrast of shoals (normally associated with seas) and
deserts. River shoals are merley banks of collected sand. They are all
over the place in the desert. Bones collect in strata as fossils. There is
no law of nature that says we cannot go the way of the dinosaurs. In that
sense our species is no different than any other species. Ringed---all
around. Nothing but silence.
>
> >
> > The heaving hills scatter great stones
> > in their slow migration south.
>
> The use of heaving and slow sounds not quite right. "Heaving" and
> "slow" are at odds with one another. The hills are heaving and
> scattering, but they are moving slowly.
Time. If we could watch geological processes in fast motion, the ground
would literally be rolling in waves, just like the sea. The hills would
actually appear to migrate. Scattered stones refers to bolders that are
moved in the process, such as being carried along by glaciers, etc. The
natural processes of time moves everything, including us. Scattering
stones was intended to show how enormous these forces are, and how
irresistible.
>
> >
> > Here walking the earth's edge
> > it's too bright even with sunglasses.
>
> Adding the word "sunglasses" in with the other imagery takes me away
> from what you might have been saying. It's more modern. Perhaps it's
> ok. Now I'm in a Dali picture.
> Now there is not thirst or southward movement. Where is "here"? The
> completion of the journey to "south"?
Modern life, living on the edge, brought about by our technology. Sensory
overload, blinded by a bewildering array of choices. Even when we try to
filter it all out, it is difficult to see our way.
Here is where the human race finds itself---today, here.
>
> >
> > I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> > then turn to white sand at my approach.
>
> The lakes are burning but turn to white sand when the N approaches?
> There is a change. I wonder why.
Mirages appear to float on the sand in the distance. They appear to
simmer. They don't even appear to be touching the ground, as if they were
suspended by a layer of steam. But when you get up to where they looked
like they were, they’re gone---nothing but sand. I chose white for purity,
in the sense of sterility---even the minutest life forms vanished.
>
>
> > Who is that distant image?
> > Who is it carves the sculptor?
>
> I like this but it seems out of place. The image is the silver lakes
> turning into white sand from the previous lines? Why should the reader
> now care about the mystery of "who is it carves the sculptor"?
That distant image, represents our potential as human beings. The image is
illusive, like the mirrage. Have we reached our highest potential as
social creatures? Or have we passed it already and headed into decline?
Where is that elusive ideal? What is it? Can we find that ideal before it
slips away forever like a mirage in the desert.
Who created us? Who carved the scupltor?
>
> >
> > Out here space drops off.
> > To fathom the infinite know
>
> Here? Beyond the place where the "who" carves the sculptor? I feel as
> if I transported here without recollection as to how to get "here".
> Should I want to know?
If we “blow it”, meaning, if we destroy ourselves, wipe ourselves off the
planet. Our spirits will be thrown into space (if you believe in an
eternal spirit). This was not intended to be a traditional Christian
concept, but more eastern in nature. Hence, space drops off, as if we were
tipped off of the edge of the world into space.
>
>
> That disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> > upon which the universe up-ends.
>
> Out of balance. I've got that. What I don't know is how you've got
> "here" from "there".
Again, the mystical concept that the reason all of are here in the first
place is because we have fallen from a higher plane due to our selfish
desires. The mystical concept that heaven cannot allow any being who is
not in harmony with the one, the Godhead, into the upper realms, otherwise
the upper realms would be corrupted too. It’s not like we are forceed to
come here, it’s more like the beings of the upper realms are saying, “We
don’t care where you go, but you can’t stay here,” you know, the
traditional closing-time mantra at bars.
The idea that it is this disharmony which led us here in the first place,
and only by learning to live in harmony *here* can we ever return to those
higher realms. We are here to learn to live in harmony. That’s the whole
point. The idea is, that if we can’t do that, we not only can’t save our
planet, we can’t return to the higher realms.
Universe up-ends---galaxy after galaxy with no life left on any planet,
wiped out by failed societies. Failure in the physical realm projected to
infinity---the reverse of success projected to infinity. Disharmony,
again. In this case, actually up-ending the entire universe.
Disharmony is where it starts. Of course, that’s the problem. Everyone has
their own ideas of how the world needs to be changed to ensure greater
harmony. Even *plans* for harmony can sometimes differ from one another
and clash with one another and cause disharmony. It can be quite a
dilemma. The mystics of many differing religions and philosophies, around
the world and from different eras, are in agreement to an uncanny extent
about how to find our way out of this dilemma, how to achieve harmony. I
believe that.
So, you see, the previous poster was wrong about nihilism, because I
believe there is a way out. The whole poem is a warning. It's a "what if"
scenario. Can we avoid total destruction? Who knows? But the level of
disharmony in the world is the measure of our success in that direction.
Randy
Sick Mind
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote
> Sick Mind wrote:
The audience for incoherent rambling is going to be really small,
maybe a few misguided adolescents exploring their beliefs. As long as you
understand that you should be fine. Just consider not contributing to
their misguidance.
Perhaps your words mean more to you than is coming across. You have
two lines that raise an interesting philosophical question about sculptors,
but it doesn't fit in the rest of the "poem" You might have ideas but you
are definitely not developing them.
When readers catch on to obscurity for obscurity's sake you will lose
most of them.
Will Dockery tries to hide behind obscurity in much of what he
"writes" and has taken a lot of harsh negative criticism for it here. I
compared it to "magnetic poetry." Magnetic poetry kits are sold at some
bookstores. You take more or less random words and phrases with magnets
and stick them to a refrigerator. Sometimes interesting or humorous
arrangements of words seem to just happen. It probably does make great
playtime for little kids, but it isn't writing.
There are skillful uses of obscurity that can get past people's
preconceived notions and biases, but I couldn't find that here. The last
two lines gave you away as a sort of American pseudo-taoist many of us know
and wish we didn't.
Sick Mind
boro...@onaypamsay.att.net
Randy Scop
Sick Mind wrote:
Well, to be a pseudo-Taoist, wouldn't I have to first think I am, or claim to
be a Taoist? I never have, and I wouldn't. I respect the tradition too much to
be that phoney about it.
And frankly, I think most weterners who *think* they know the Tao are *all*
pseudo-Taoists in a certain sense, because the western mindset is so different
from the eastern mindset. And the Tao is such a difficult concept to grasp even
for someone from the east. Or, I guess a Taoist would say that to talk about
*grasping* the Tao is to miss the point entirely.
I am well aware that although I have read three or four books about the Tao, it
is still a mystery to me, and don't pretend to understand anything more than a
few simple concepts, which would make the the lowest kind of beginner if I were
actually trying to learn it from a true eastern Taoist master. Still, I think
westerners can learn a lot of good things from it.
I 've been influenced by the Tao, that's true. And I've written other poems
where the influence is more or less center-stage. But I don't see that so much
in this one.
Well, I may have failed to do anything worthwhile here. But it's no sin to
write a bad poem, thank God.
Randy
>
>
> Sick Mind
> boro...@onaypamsay.att.net
Barbara's Cat
Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net> said:
[ snipped for brevity ]
> But it's no sin to write a bad poem, thank God.
If it were, we're all on our way to Hell.
--
Cm~
The Jinn
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message news:43F20CDB...@lanternslides.net...
> Well, I may have failed to do anything worthwhile here. But it's no sin to
> write a bad poem, thank God.
You can leave now, and save more humiliation.
Turns out the technical term for your /poetry/ is: "crap"
ggamble
wrote:
>
>
>
>This one's not new either.
>
>
>
>DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
The warning flags are already up upon seeing an all capped title.
>Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
Imagery? Sonics? Imaginative diction? Figurative language?
No to all of the above.
>Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
Cliche count: 2 Abstraction count: 1
This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
reading here.
>It seems our bones thirst for dust,
>to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
Try to have your writing make sense.
Avoid cliches and abstractions.
Learn how to punctuate.
It doesn't matter if the rest of the poem is stuffed with vibrant
imagery, sensual sonics and imaginative, precise diction because
hardly anyone is going to read it when your first four lines are this
sloppy and uninspired. If you don't hook your reader right away, it's
all over.
I did glance over the rest of this and it's all just more of the same
abstraction and cliche laden adolescent navel gazing diary fodder.
Try to find your own voice; try to use your own words.
Good luck.
the messenjah
Where's your poetry?
ggamble
<theguyo...@veryfast.biz> wrote:
>Where's your poetry?
All over the place.
Where's your fantasy life?
Oh, I forgot, it's right here.
the messenjah
ggamble wrote:
> On 14 Feb 2006 08:14:18 -0800, "the messenjah"
> <theguyo...@veryfast.biz> wrote:
>
>
> >Where's your poetry?
>
> All over the place.
Show us.
>
> Where's your fantasy life?
At home with Lindsay Lohan.
>
> Oh, I forgot, it's right here.
Naw, not where you are. Because where you are it sucks. heh...
ggamble
>
>Where's your fantasy life?
>
>Oh, I forgot, it's right here.
-
2-14-06
Tuesday
1115
Tool
"Sober"
Good morning, and Happy Valentine's Day...
It was another cold morning here in downtown Jacksonville... However,
the warmer weather is on the way... Yeah!!!
Jessica came over again last night... She gave me a clock.
The clock has different species of birds on it instead of numbers. So
when it hits the top of the hour, the particular bird will chirp. It
woke me up in the middle of the night. I couldn't help but laugh
though...
Jessica is the only woman that I have loved this past year so she is
my Valentine...
ggamble
<theguyo...@veryfast.biz> wrote:
>Naw, not where you are. Because where you are it sucks. heh...
the messenjah
Awww... I'm still a very importtant part of your day, huh Gary?
ggamble
the messenjah
ggamble wrote:
> http://www.insurgent.org/kook_sounds/
Typical. You're at a loss for words again. Here read some more, freak
boy.
Tim da Jinn
ggamble wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:10:34 GMT, Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >This one's not new either.
> >
> >
> >
> >DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>
> The warning flags are already up upon seeing an all capped title.
>
> >Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
>
> Imagery? Sonics? Imaginative diction? Figurative language?
>
> No to all of the above.
>
> >Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
>
> Cliche count: 2 Abstraction count: 1
>
> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
> reading here.
>
> >It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> >to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
>
> Try to have your writing make sense.
> Avoid cliches and abstractions.
> Learn how to punctuate.
>
> It doesn't matter if the rest of the poem is stuffed with vibrant
> imagery, sensual sonics and imaginative, precise diction because
> hardly anyone is going to read it when your first four lines are this
> sloppy and uninspired. If you don't hook your reader right away, it's
> all over.
Well, OK. Gamble does say something, sometimes.
But I think Randy will find a way to blah mumble around
/all that/.
>
> I did glance over the rest of this and it's all just more of the same
> abstraction and cliche laden adolescent navel gazing diary fodder.
Good to know. :)
He's out on a prison work furlough.
--
AJ - http://clitin.com
(the biggest clit in pornetry)
Sat.Map: http://tinyurl.com/cjo5b
>
ggamble
<theguyo...@veryfast.biz> wrote:
> Here read some more, freak
>boy.
Tim da Jinn
The point was to excuse his bad poetry.
But you don't excuse other poetry you consider bad.
Why this crap? Because he's new? :)
Could it be that you, like him, hasn't got a clue?
Maybe you are both stupid people /trying too hard/?
Idea from the Amazing Jinn!
Enjoy some art, it will relax you: http://Art.Here.nu
Cheers, Studs :)
Veronica O'Donoghue
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:17:29 GMT, ggamble <f...@net.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Where's your fantasy life?
> >
> >Oh, I forgot, it's right here.
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
> 2-14-06
> Tuesday
>
> 1115
>
> Tool
> "Sober"
>
> Good morning, and Happy Valentine's Day...
>
> It was another cold morning here in downtown Jacksonville... However,
> the warmer weather is on the way... Yeah!!!
>
> Jessica came over again last night... She gave me a clock.
>
> The clock has different species of birds on it instead of numbers. So
> when it hits the top of the hour, the particular bird will chirp. It
> woke me up in the middle of the night. I couldn't help but laugh
> though...
chuckles has been smoking his special "sober" dope again...
>
> Jessica is the only woman that I have loved this past year so she is
> my Valentine...
Wonder what happened to Narnia? Like all the others over the past six
years she too was "the only one"...
the messenjah
Veronica O'Donoghue wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:24:31 GMT, ggamble <f...@net.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:17:29 GMT, ggamble <f...@net.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Where's your fantasy life?
> > >
> > >Oh, I forgot, it's right here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> > 2-14-06
> > Tuesday
> >
> > 1115
> >
> > Tool
> > "Sober"
> >
> > Good morning, and Happy Valentine's Day...
> >
> > It was another cold morning here in downtown Jacksonville... However,
> > the warmer weather is on the way... Yeah!!!
> >
> > Jessica came over again last night... She gave me a clock.
> >
> > The clock has different species of birds on it instead of numbers. So
> > when it hits the top of the hour, the particular bird will chirp. It
> > woke me up in the middle of the night. I couldn't help but laugh
> > though...
>
> chuckles has been smoking his special "sober" dope again...
What?
>
> >
> > Jessica is the only woman that I have loved this past year so she is
> > my Valentine...
>
>
> Wonder what happened to Narnia? Like all the others over the past six
> years she too was "the only one"...
Jealous honey?
Peter J Ross
<vm...@insurgent.org.invalid> wrote in rec.arts.poems:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:24:31 GMT, ggamble <f...@net.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:17:29 GMT, ggamble <f...@net.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Where's your fantasy life?
>> >
>> >Oh, I forgot, it's right here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>> 2-14-06
>> Tuesday
>>
>> 1115
>>
>> Tool
>> "Sober"
>>
>> Good morning, and Happy Valentine's Day...
>>
>> It was another cold morning here in downtown Jacksonville... However,
>> the warmer weather is on the way... Yeah!!!
>>
>> Jessica came over again last night... She gave me a clock.
>>
>> The clock has different species of birds on it instead of numbers. So
>> when it hits the top of the hour, the particular bird will chirp. It
>> woke me up in the middle of the night. I couldn't help but laugh
>> though...
>
> chuckles has been smoking his special "sober" dope again...
The pusher saw the mark coming.
>> Jessica is the only woman that I have loved this past year so she is
>> my Valentine...
>
> Wonder what happened to Narnia? Like all the others over the past six
> years she too was "the only one"...
I thought his favourite was Bubba.
"Bubba is a girl's name, dumbass."
PJR :-)
--
Have you been touched ___ ___ Hammer of Thor, Jan 2006
by His noodly / _ \ / _ \
appendage? ( (_) )( (_) ) Pierre Salinger Memorial
\_ _/ \_ _/ Hook, Line & Sinker, Dec
STOP GLOBAL __ _.-\\----//--._ 2003 & May 2005
WARMING _ / _\___.-'/ _| / _\ /\/\`-._.-.__ _
NOW, (_\_)| \___ ||_ ((_ //\/\\ _.-._ \-' ) AHM Wittiest
JIM LAD! \__) __) | _| _) ) || || (_ \_.-' Troll of the
/_-. || \_/ || .-'-.\ Year, 2003
http:// _._// / .--._______.-'\ \ \\__._ 2004 & 2005
www. /_._/ \ \ )) \__._)
venganza (/ _.-') ( `-._ wsd 42 ~ mhm 34x8
.org/ (_.-' :F_P: `--._) smeeter 30 ~ mwpl 12
Peter J Ross
<theguyo...@veryfast.biz> wrote in rec.arts.poems:
> Jealous honey?
Is that what Jealous Pooh likes to eat, illiterate pedo?
Tim da Jinn
Peter J Ross wrote:
Fuck off, troll.
Barbara's Cat
> Barbara's Cat wrote:
>
> > You are without doubt so owned.
--
Cm~
Sherrie Lee
ggamble wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:10:34 GMT, Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >This one's not new either.
> >
> >
> >
> >DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>
> The warning flags are already up upon seeing an all capped title.
>
> >Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
>
> Imagery? Sonics? Imaginative diction? Figurative language?
>
> No to all of the above.
>
> >Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
>
> Cliche count: 2 Abstraction count: 1
>
> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
> reading here.
That's funny. That's really funny. Did you know you did that?
ggamble
wrote:
>> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
>> reading here.
>
>That's funny. That's really funny. Did you know you did that?
Did you know that you still come across as an illiterate fourteen year
old on acid?
Sherrie Lee
Worse, I look in the mirror, and I see you.
I'm not kidding. Ask anyone who's met me in RL.
Take that photo of you that's on the usenet poets'
photo site and compare it to my looks. Same thing.
What with that chin that makes a two smile face. Absolutely scary.
ggamble
wrote:
Yeah, the only problem is that that isn't my photo.
Just as some of the ghastly poetry that's been posted with *Gary
Gamble* attached to the end of it wasn't written by me.
But, you have my condolences none the less.
Learn how to read.
Good luck.
Sherrie Lee
Thank you. I wonder who it is? He's kinda cute.
Karla
>
>
>"Diana" <Diana_of...@excite.com> wrote in message
>news:1139906075.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Randy Scop wrote:
>>> This one's not new either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It isn't clear. Disengagement from what? Deserts, harmony, life?
>>
>>>
>>> It seems our bones thirst for dust,
>>> to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
>>
>> is a "desert shoal"? Is it a group of people, things, or sea life?
>> "Ringed in silence"? Why "ringed"?
>>>
>>> The heaving hills scatter great stones
>>> in their slow migration south.
>>
>> "slow" are at odds with one another. The hills are heaving and
>> scattering, but they are moving slowly.
>>>
>>> Here walking the earth's edge
>>> it's too bright even with sunglasses.
>>
>> from what you might have been saying. It's more modern. Perhaps it's
>> ok. Now I'm in a Dali picture.
>> Now there is not thirst or southward movement. Where is "here"? The
>> completion of the journey to "south"?
>>>
>>> I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
>>> then turn to white sand at my approach.
>>
>> There is a change. I wonder why.
>>
>>> Who is that distant image?
>>> Who is it carves the sculptor?
>>
>> turning into white sand from the previous lines? Why should the reader
>> now care about the mystery of "who is it carves the sculptor"?
>>>
>>> Out here space drops off.
>>> To fathom the infinite know
>>
>> if I transported here without recollection as to how to get "here".
>> Should I want to know?
>>
>> That disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
>>> upon which the universe up-ends.
>>
>> "here" from "there".
>>
>
>
>You read this abstract drivel all the way down, hunh?
>
>One thing: randy sure doesn't know the difference between
>good and bad poetry. Not his own, not others.
Why are you following Randy around leaving rat pellets? He hasn't joined into
what you in your paranoid whine about as being collaboration with The Picture.
Is he collateral damage? Are you targeting all posters of poetry because of The
Picture? Will your paranoia lead you to other forums? real life? I'm only
asking so we can do our duty and send a warning. Get a grip, Tom Bishop. You
give away so much power. Will every newbie poetry poster get such empowerment
from you without even knowing about The Picture?
Karla
>I have been on top of desert mountains and found fossilized shark’s teeth.
>I liked the contrast of shoals (normally associated with seas) and
>deserts. River shoals are merley banks of collected sand. They are all
>over the place in the desert. Bones collect in strata as fossils. There is
>no law of nature that says we cannot go the way of the dinosaurs. In that
>sense our species is no different than any other species. Ringed---all
>around. Nothing but silence.
Randy, there is the possibilty for poetry in this part I've left undeleted. I
feel your passion in your observations reading that. You're not falling into
editing and donning a pseudo mask here. Not just you. We're constantly in the
process of removing masks to serve the word.
I read your comments back to people elsewhere but I'm short on time so let me
throw this out here. Take your original poem, lose the pairing. Cause each
line to stand alone. For personal use, not public consumption, meditate on each
line and write it down. Then, write a concrete image for every line of hiding.
Make 6 copies of the poem and 6 copies of the meditation for every room in your
house. It should be readily apparent in 40 days and 40 nights what's left
standing, past the gagging, what part makes you cry. Throw it all away, Randy,
only after the devil leaves you. I want to read that poem.
Karla
The Jinn
"Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstb9...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>You read this abstract drivel all the way down, hunh?
>>
>>One thing: randy sure doesn't know the difference between
>>good and bad poetry. Not his own, not others.
>
> Why are you following Randy around leaving rat pellets?
What buisness is it of yours, fattie K?
> He hasn't joined into
> what you in your paranoid whine about as being collaboration with The Picture.
> Is he collateral damage? Are you targeting all posters of poetry because of The
> Picture? Will your paranoia lead you to other forums? real life? I'm only
> asking so we can do our duty and send a warning.
Funny. :)
> Get a grip, Amadeus. You
> give away so much power. Will every newbie poetry poster get such empowerment
> from you without even knowing about The Picture?
What buisness is it of yours, fattie K?
The Jinn
"Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstca...@drn.newsguy.com...
Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
Barbara's Cat
> Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
> beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
Have you yet argued with the lamppost
standing at the entrance of the RV camp
you're currently residing in?
Just curious.
--
Cm~
Randy Scop
ggamble wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:10:34 GMT, Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >This one's not new either.
> >
> >
> >
> >DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>
> The warning flags are already up upon seeing an all capped title.
But I post *all* poems like that, even the poems of my favorite dead
poets. That is a very traditional way of setting typeface with poems. I
couldn't begin to count how many books of poems use that arangement.
However, I would prefer to use A GARAMON #12 for the title (all caps), and
Times New Roman #10 for the text of the poem. That's a fairly common way
of presenting poems in anthologies. I suggest you try it with your own
poems. You may actually like it. I have tried various other ways, Times
New Roman #12, #14, #16, etc. in the title, but without caps. I like that
too. But since I don't know the intricacies of type in this forum, I just
use caps, But look back at my posts. I use the same format for every poem
I post, not just my own poems.
In other words, it was habit, not ego.
>
>
> >Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
>
> Imagery? Sonics? Imaginative diction? Figurative language?
>
> No to all of the above.
I mentioned decadence in a previous post, but I was also talking about how
the neccessities of our everyday lives---taking care of the kids, grocery
shopping, going to work, gassing up the car, fixing dinner, etc., in other
words---*just getting by*---can divert our attention from the larger
issues of society, to the point where we neglect them or don't even know
they are there.But it's hard to blame people for simply getting caught up
in daily routines. What I'm saying is that we pay a *price* for that
choice. It's a double-edged sword.
>
>
> >Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
>
> Cliche count: 2 Abstraction count: 1
>
> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
> reading here.
Not me. I love a good riddle.
>
>
> >It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> >to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
>
> Try to have your writing make sense.
> Avoid cliches and abstractions.
> Learn how to punctuate.
>
> It doesn't matter if the rest of the poem is stuffed with vibrant
> imagery, sensual sonics and imaginative, precise diction because
> hardly anyone is going to read it when your first four lines are this
> sloppy and uninspired. If you don't hook your reader right away, it's
> all over.
Yes, it's all over for the reader who insists on getting hooked right
away. I'm not one of those readers, at least, when it comes to poetry. I
enjoy a puzzling poem, as long as it is fairly short.
>
>
> I did glance over the rest of this and it's all just more of the same
> abstraction and cliche laden adolescent navel gazing diary fodder.
>
> Try to find your own voice; try to use your own words.
>
> Good luck.
thanks
>
>
> >
> >The heaving hills scatter great stones
> >in their slow migration south.
> >
> >Here walking the earth’s edge
> >it’s too bright even with sunglasses.
> >
> >I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> >then turn to white sand at my approach.
> >
> >Who is that distant image?
> >Who is it carves the sculptor?
> >
> >Out here space drops off.
> >To fathom the infinite know
> >
> >that disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
Randy Scop
Karla wrote:
> In article <43F1ED4B...@lanternslides.net>, Randy Scop says...
>
> >I have been on top of desert mountains and found fossilized shark’s teeth.
> >I liked the contrast of shoals (normally associated with seas) and
> >deserts. River shoals are merley banks of collected sand. They are all
> >over the place in the desert. Bones collect in strata as fossils. There is
> >no law of nature that says we cannot go the way of the dinosaurs. In that
> >sense our species is no different than any other species. Ringed---all
> >around. Nothing but silence.
>
> Randy, there is the possibilty for poetry in this part I've left undeleted. I
> feel your passion in your observations reading that. You're not falling into
> editing and donning a pseudo mask here. Not just you. We're constantly in the
> process of removing masks to serve the word.
I'm gald you mentioned that---a very Jungian perspective, of course. I have no idea
if Sylvia Plath read Jung or not, but my feeling is that there is little she
*didn't* read, and Jung would have certainly been popular when she was going to
school and college. Gut I have a poem by her that I had read many times: "Tale of a
Tub". And I never "got it" until just the other day. I was scrutinizing it for other
aspects of craft, when, BANG! It hit me. She was expressing Jungian ideas, in my
opinion. I'll post it. Tell me what you think. I'll leave off my comments about it
until people have gotten a chance to read it. They probably won't read this post
anyway.
>
>
> I read your comments back to people elsewhere but I'm short on time so let me
> throw this out here. Take your original poem, lose the pairing. Cause each
> line to stand alone. For personal use, not public consumption, meditate on each
> line and write it down. Then, write a concrete image for every line of hiding.
hiding?
oh, obscurity
yeah, I hadn't thought of it as hiding
>
> Make 6 copies of the poem and 6 copies of the meditation for every room in your
> house. It should be readily apparent in 40 days and 40 nights what's left
> standing, past the gagging, what part makes you cry. Throw it all away, Randy,
> only after the devil leaves you. I want to read that poem.
I'm sure you are giving me a good tip here---a trick for enticing the seed to
germintate. It sounds like a good idea. I love tricks.
Once Auden was giving a lecture and talking about all the various *tricks* of the
trade of poets. Finally and old woman got up from the back of the room, disgusted,
and said (word to the effect of), "Mr. Auden, poets are a very rare breed, and are
endowed by nature with special qualities beyond ordinary men and women, and who
follow only the mystical inspiration of their their muse. Are you trying to tell me
you condescend to use *tricks* when you write your poems?"
Auden responded (words to the effect of), "Madam, I not only *use* them, I *revel*
in them!"
I'll copy your advice and think it over. It had never occured to me to rewrite it in
some other form, or break it up and take only one part and expand it.
Randy
>
>
> Karla
ggamble
wrote:
>
>
>ggamble wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:10:34 GMT, Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >This one's not new either.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>>
>> The warning flags are already up upon seeing an all capped title.
>
>But I post *all* poems like that, even the poems of my favorite dead
>poets. That is a very traditional way of setting typeface with poems. I
>couldn't begin to count how many books of poems use that arangement.
>However, I would prefer to use A GARAMON #12 for the title (all caps), and
>Times New Roman #10 for the text of the poem. That's a fairly common way
>of presenting poems in anthologies. I suggest you try it with your own
>poems. You may actually like it. I have tried various other ways, Times
>New Roman #12, #14, #16, etc. in the title, but without caps. I like that
>too. But since I don't know the intricacies of type in this forum, I just
>use caps, But look back at my posts. I use the same format for every poem
>I post, not just my own poems.
>
>In other words, it was habit, not ego.
It's a bad habit that you should lose.
But hey, don't let me tell you what to do.
>>
>> >Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
>>
>> Imagery? Sonics? Imaginative diction? Figurative language?
>>
>> No to all of the above.
>
>I mentioned decadence in a previous post, but I was also talking about how
>the neccessities of our everyday lives---taking care of the kids, grocery
>shopping, going to work, gassing up the car, fixing dinner, etc., in other
>words---*just getting by*---can divert our attention from the larger
>issues of society, to the point where we neglect them or don't even know
>they are there.But it's hard to blame people for simply getting caught up
>in daily routines. What I'm saying is that we pay a *price* for that
>choice. It's a double-edged sword.
No, none of that is in the poem attempt.
You wrote:
"Simply getting by has its drawbacks."
If you had written something about putting gas in the car and shopping
and fixing dinner, it might have provided enough detail to turn your
diary entry written entirely for yourself into a poem written for a
reader. A poem is composed of nothing but words.
Don't fucken tell me that you were talking about a whole list of
things when you wrote:
"Simply getting by has its drawbacks."
All you're telling me with "Simply getting by has its drawbacks." is
that you have no fucken idea what it means to write effectively and
that you're either too shallow, unimaginative or lazy to at least try
to engage a reader.
>
>>
>>
>> >Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
>>
>> Cliche count: 2 Abstraction count: 1
>>
>> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
>> reading here.
>
>Not me. I love a good riddle.
Well, since you're writing just for yourself, why did you ask for
comments and criticism. You like a good riddle. So fucken what.
I like a good poem.
>>
>>
>> >It seems our bones thirst for dust,
>> >to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
>>
>> Try to have your writing make sense.
>> Avoid cliches and abstractions.
>> Learn how to punctuate.
>>
>> It doesn't matter if the rest of the poem is stuffed with vibrant
>> imagery, sensual sonics and imaginative, precise diction because
>> hardly anyone is going to read it when your first four lines are this
>> sloppy and uninspired. If you don't hook your reader right away, it's
>> all over.
>
>Yes, it's all over for the reader who insists on getting hooked right
>away. I'm not one of those readers, at least, when it comes to poetry. I
>enjoy a puzzling poem, as long as it is fairly short.
The only puzzling aspect of your *poem* is that you called it a poem.
Sorry to sound harsh, but there it is.
If you have to explain it, the poem is a failure.
Will Dockery
> "Sherrie Lee" wrote:
> >Gary Gamble wrote:
>
> >> >> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
> >> >> reading here.
> >> >
> >> >That's funny. That's really funny. Did you know you did that?
> >>
> >> Did you know that you still come across as an illiterate fourteen year
> >> old on acid?
> >
> >Worse, I look in the mirror, and I see you.
> >I'm not kidding. Ask anyone who's met me in RL.
> >Take that photo of you that's on the usenet poets'
> >photo site and compare it to my looks. Same thing.
> >What with that chin that makes a two smile face. Absolutely scary.
>
> Yeah, the only problem is that that isn't my photo.
> Just as some of the ghastly poetry that's been posted with *Gary
> Gamble* attached to the end of it wasn't written by me.
You didn't really write "Pete The Dog"?
Pete The Dog
Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
He would accompany
anyone going for a walk.
It was like having a pet
without vet bills..
You could shoo him
from your compost bin
just by knocking on the window
and scowling..
Since his owners moved,
bunnies are munching
complacently on my chives;
there are deer droppings
in the backyard.
The police cruisers
and social workers' sedans
are never seen in the neighberhood anymore..
Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
-Gary Gamble
----
Not as good as your 'Regrets Of The Nam", but that one was a
prizewinner at poetry.com for you, after all...
--
"Hasty Pudding" by Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/dockeryconleytrio
Tuesday Afternoon Show #14
Featuring musical guests Will Dockery, Causeway and Christine Anderson:
<http://johnhmaloney.com/tuesdayshow/tasep14.mp3>
Randy Scop
ggamble wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:19:21 GMT, Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >ggamble wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:10:34 GMT, Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >This one's not new either.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
> >>
> >> The warning flags are already up upon seeing an all capped title.
> >
> >But I post *all* poems like that, even the poems of my favorite dead
> >poets. That is a very traditional way of setting typeface with poems. I
> >couldn't begin to count how many books of poems use that arangement.
> >However, I would prefer to use A GARAMON #12 for the title (all caps), and
> >Times New Roman #10 for the text of the poem. That's a fairly common way
> >of presenting poems in anthologies. I suggest you try it with your own
> >poems. You may actually like it. I have tried various other ways, Times
> >New Roman #12, #14, #16, etc. in the title, but without caps. I like that
> >too. But since I don't know the intricacies of type in this forum, I just
> >use caps, But look back at my posts. I use the same format for every poem
> >I post, not just my own poems.
> >
> >In other words, it was habit, not ego.
>
> It's a bad habit that you should lose.
> But hey, don't let me tell you what to do.
I learned it from my copy of the Complete Poems of Carl Sandburg. It was the
last and most complete volume, with poems he had never published before, so it
is arranged exactly how he wanted it. One day I just happened to discover that
the font was A Garamond #12 (if you use Times New Roman #10 for the text). It's
a fairly common way of presenting poems, at least with the moderns. I think it
looks good. But the Times New Roman #12 caps doen't look very good. I'll agree
with that. The A Garamond looks much better.
ggamble
wrote:
>Not as good as your 'Regrets Of The Nam", but that one was a
>prizewinner at poetry.com for you, after all...
There's a big, green rhino horn growing out of the middle of your
forehead, you lying cunt.
Will Dockery
>"Will Dockery" wrote:
>
> >Not as good as your 'Regrets Of The Nam", but that one was a
> >prizewinner at poetry.com for you, after all...
>
> There's a big, green rhino horn growing out of the middle of your
> forehead, you lying cunt.
Heh... you seem angry, Gary.
ggamble
wrote:
>> There's a big, green rhino horn growing out of the middle of your
>> forehead, you lying cunt.
pandora
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message
news:43F28A8E...@lanternslides.net...
Randy, meet gary. He's the asshole of the group apart from what you may
have been led to believe. He doesn't critique, he insults. And yes, he
likes to tell people what to do.
Marg
The Jinn
>
Whatever.. in text, on Usenet.
>> The only puzzling aspect of your *poem* is that you called it a poem.
>>
>> Sorry to sound harsh, but there it is.
It wasn't performance art, either.
Some porn for the background, perhaps?
Peter J Ross
rec.arts.poems:
I think I realised that before anybody else.
The RAP-purge is going pretty well. Angel is silent, and Bob E,
pandora and that boring Finnish bloke who knows three or four guitar
chords are much quieter than they used to be.
But they think they're winning. Mheh.
The Jinn
"Peter J Ross" <p...@kookbusters.org> wrote in message news:slrndv4ub...@nntp.petitmorte.net...
> The RAP-purge is going pretty well. Angel is silent, and Bob E,
> pandora and that boring Finnish bloke who knows three or four guitar
> chords are much quieter than they used to be.
You're next.
The Jinn
"pandora" <pan...@peak.org> wrote in message news:PZ-dnfIVgfLa5G_e...@scnresearch.com...
There were some lucid passages. Hey... he got an "Oooeee Baby" award.
They're like Gold Stars... I'd like to work out an exchange rate. :)
> And yes, he
> likes to tell people what to do.
And women like to be teased.
--
AJ - http://clitin.com
(the biggest clit in pornetry)
Sat.Map: http://tinyurl.com/cjo5b
>
Karla
Heya Marg!
Ya know, I had a mission in the archives recently and I came across your poem
which you entitled at the time, THE SHAMING. I liked it! You should repost it.
Ya, the end was unnecessary and needed tweaking but you should post it. I look
at it this way.
1. Post THE SHAMING
2. Boo at Randy for explaining his poem
3. Make love to Gary
Aren't choices great!
Happy Valentine's Day!
Karla
ggamble
wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:37:59 GMT, ggamble <f...@net.com> wrote in
>rec.arts.poems:
>
>> On 14 Feb 2006 10:18:20 -0800, "Sherrie Lee" <sherr...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
>>>> reading here.
>>>
>>>That's funny. That's really funny. Did you know you did that?
>>
>>
>> Did you know that you still come across as an illiterate fourteen year
>> old on acid?
>
>I think I realised that before anybody else.
>
>The RAP-purge is going pretty well. Angel is silent, and Bob E,
>pandora and that boring Finnish bloke who knows three or four guitar
>chords are much quieter than they used to be.
>
>But they think they're winning. Mheh.
>
>PJR :-)
oh fuck, marg has already won!
ggamble
wrote:
>
>Randy, meet gary. He's the asshole of the group apart from what you may
>have been led to believe. He doesn't critique, he insults. And yes, he
>likes to tell people what to do.
>
>Marg
You worship the ground I walk on.
Peter J Ross
rec.arts.poems:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:42:15 +0000, Peter J Ross <p...@kookbusters.org>
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:37:59 GMT, ggamble <f...@net.com> wrote in
>>rec.arts.poems:
>>
>>> On 14 Feb 2006 10:18:20 -0800, "Sherrie Lee" <sherr...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> This is not an auspicious start and most experienced readers will stop
>>>>> reading here.
>>>>
>>>>That's funny. That's really funny. Did you know you did that?
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you know that you still come across as an illiterate fourteen year
>>> old on acid?
>>
>>I think I realised that before anybody else.
>>
>>The RAP-purge is going pretty well. Angel is silent, and Bob E,
>>pandora and that boring Finnish bloke who knows three or four guitar
>>chords are much quieter than they used to be.
>>
>>But they think they're winning. Mheh.
>>
>>PJR :-)
>
> oh fuck, marg has already won!
And Dockery wins again!
pandora
"The Jinn" <ajinn...@here.nu> wrote in message
news:EcvIf.13274$2O6....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> > And yes, he
> > likes to tell people what to do.
>
> And women like to be teased.
Not this woman.
Marg
ggamble
Will Dockery
pandora wrote:
> "Randy Scop" wrote:
----
Pete The Dog
Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
He would accompany
anyone going for a walk.
It was like having a pet
without vet bills..
You could shoo him
from your compost bin
just by knocking on the window
and scowling..
Since his owners moved,
bunnies are munching
complacently on my chives;
there are deer droppings
in the backyard.
The police cruisers
and social workers' sedans
are never seen in the neighborhood anymore..
Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
-Gary Gamble
----
So you see why Gary mainly sticks to insults and jeers.
Welcome, Randy... I've been reading some of your interesting
interactions with some of the regulars tonight, here's two photo
galleries with most of the regulars of these newsgroups:
<http://www.kalieda.org/photos/rogues-gallery.html> and
<http://netpoets.here.nu/>.
Hang onto your hat, though, it's gonna be a bumpy ride!
Diana
The Jinn wrote:
> "Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstca...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>
> Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
> beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
>
>
advise and tell him what could improve this particular piece, if
anything, ya know. Does rec.arts have to be about Who's On Your Side?
*eyes rolled all to sky* You have more to say about poetry than you let
on.
Diana
Sherrie Lee wrote:
> Diana wrote:
> > Randy Scop wrote:
> > > This one's not new either.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
> > >
> > >
> >
> > It isn't clear. Disengagement from what? Deserts, harmony, life?
> >
> > >
> > > It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> > > to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
> >
> > is a "desert shoal"? Is it a group of people, things, or sea life?
> > "Ringed in silence"? Why "ringed"?
> > >
> > > The heaving hills scatter great stones
> > > in their slow migration south.
> >
> > "slow" are at odds with one another. The hills are heaving and
> > scattering, but they are moving slowly.
> > >
> > > Here walking the earth's edge
> > > it's too bright even with sunglasses.
> >
> > from what you might have been saying. It's more modern. Perhaps it's
> > ok. Now I'm in a Dali picture.
> > Now there is not thirst or southward movement. Where is "here"? The
> > completion of the journey to "south"?
> > >
> > > I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> > > then turn to white sand at my approach.
> >
> > There is a change. I wonder why.
> >
> > > Who is that distant image?
> > > Who is it carves the sculptor?
> >
> > turning into white sand from the previous lines? Why should the reader
> > now care about the mystery of "who is it carves the sculptor"?
> > >
> > > Out here space drops off.
> > > To fathom the infinite know
> >
> > if I transported here without recollection as to how to get "here".
> > Should I want to know?
> >
> > That disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> > > upon which the universe up-ends.
> >
> > "here" from "there".
>
> Hi Heather,
>
> I see several allusions (who can tell if they're intentional; but they
> suggest an aquaintance with literary experience). Bones to dust had me
> pondering at first. Then doubt left with the Pygmalion bit, however,
> that's the only one I can say with confidence. Lot can be inferred.
Heya Sherrie (and Randy)!
I think a great deal is hinted at in the poem. Randy confirms it by
explaining the ideas that led to its creation. IMO, it would be a much
better poem if some of the word choices were stronger, if there were
more words to connect the images-- to create sense and to give more
life to what he wanted us to see. Otherwise, abstraction abounds. In
some places the poem seems disjointed from previous lines and images.
People don't need to be hit over the head with explanation in a poem,
but placing some guiding words here and there can help to flick the
lightswitch on. This poem makes me wish I could see it painted on a
canvas. I love surrealism.
Diana
Randy Scop wrote:
> Diana wrote:
>
> > Randy Scop wrote:
> > > This one's not new either.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
> > >
> > >
> > > Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
> > > Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
> >
> > I start to ask myself why disengagement is that "double-edged sword".
> > It isn't clear. Disengagement from what? Deserts, harmony, life?
>
> good thing for a poet to do---especially if he/she wants readers, that is.
> But I was writing this for myself. I was experimenting.
Experimenting isn't bad. I hang out with Experimenting, too. But you
posted him/her/it here, and now all types of comments will ensue! ;)
>
I have to say that I'm amazed at how fast you get all your
words/thoughts out.
A bunch of "I agree" and "hmmmms" to follow:
>
> Disengagement from life---the big picture---compared to our private little
> corners. Hedonism vs. service to humanity. Decadence. It's the whole idea
> that decadence out of control eventually is self-destructive, hence,
> double-edged sword. I was reading about Gandhi's method of Satyagraha at
> the time. Satyagraha is nonviolent political action. Action means active.
> Satyagrahis are not passive. They very actively seek out injustice and
> confront it head on, but nonviolently, and with the ultimate goal of
> discovering truth, and, through the discovery of truth, the uplift of all
> humanity.
About the poem you posted:
Perhaps you have too many ideas that you want your one poem to address.
If you piecemeal these ideas over several poems you might get more
across to your reader. I know this poem was more for just you, but if
you plan on revising it someday...
Satyagraha. That's what they call it there in India. I like it. Thas
like "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I
did not come to bring peace, but a sword" --Sir Jehus
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> > > to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
> >
> > Our bones thirst for dust. I start to think of a place for rest. What
> > is a "desert shoal"? Is it a group of people, things, or sea life?
> > "Ringed in silence"? Why "ringed"?
>
> As a species, we sometimes seem bent on our own destruction.
> Desertification is the erosion of life itself, the opposite of water,
> fertility, greeness, everything we associate with life. Our bones (our
> core). At our core, in other words, our self-destructive ways seem to go
> to our very core, as a species.
I agree, and hmmm. But is it ever completely, completely a desert?
There's surely some water somewhere hiding about.
>
> I have been on top of desert mountains and found fossilized shark's teeth.
> I liked the contrast of shoals (normally associated with seas) and
> deserts. River shoals are merley banks of collected sand. They are all
> over the place in the desert. Bones collect in strata as fossils. There is
> no law of nature that says we cannot go the way of the dinosaurs. In that
> sense our species is no different than any other species. Ringed---all
> around. Nothing but silence.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > The heaving hills scatter great stones
> > > in their slow migration south.
> >
> > The use of heaving and slow sounds not quite right. "Heaving" and
> > "slow" are at odds with one another. The hills are heaving and
> > scattering, but they are moving slowly.
>
> Time. If we could watch geological processes in fast motion, the ground
> would literally be rolling in waves, just like the sea. The hills would
> actually appear to migrate. Scattered stones refers to bolders that are
> moved in the process, such as being carried along by glaciers, etc. The
> natural processes of time moves everything, including us. Scattering
> stones was intended to show how enormous these forces are, and how
> irresistible.
I agree, and thanks for the explanation. If life stopped moving it
would mean death.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Here walking the earth's edge
> > > it's too bright even with sunglasses.
> >
> > Adding the word "sunglasses" in with the other imagery takes me away
> > from what you might have been saying. It's more modern. Perhaps it's
> > ok. Now I'm in a Dali picture.
> > Now there is not thirst or southward movement. Where is "here"? The
> > completion of the journey to "south"?
>
> Modern life, living on the edge, brought about by our technology. Sensory
> overload, blinded by a bewildering array of choices. Even when we try to
> filter it all out, it is difficult to see our way.
True. It is hard to stay focused. My dad used to tell me about how he
was trained to send morse code, and type when he was in the Navy. They
used to bang trashcans and other noisy metal objects pretty close to
his ears. He had to learn to drown the sound and distraction out.
>
>
> Here is where the human race finds itself---today, here.
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> > > then turn to white sand at my approach.
> >
> > The lakes are burning but turn to white sand when the N approaches?
> > There is a change. I wonder why.
>
> Mirages appear to float on the sand in the distance. They appear to
> simmer. They don't even appear to be touching the ground, as if they were
> suspended by a layer of steam. But when you get up to where they looked
> like they were, they're gone---nothing but sand. I chose white for purity,
> in the sense of sterility---even the minutest life forms vanished.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Who is that distant image?
> > > Who is it carves the sculptor?
> >
> > I like this but it seems out of place. The image is the silver lakes
> > turning into white sand from the previous lines? Why should the reader
> > now care about the mystery of "who is it carves the sculptor"?
>
> That distant image, represents our potential as human beings. The image is
> illusive, like the mirrage. Have we reached our highest potential as
> social creatures? Or have we passed it already and headed into decline?
> Where is that elusive ideal? What is it? Can we find that ideal before it
> slips away forever like a mirage in the desert.
The great search. I have this opinion/theory that things aren't as bad
as they seem. I don't think we humans have slipped backwards so much. I
don't always think we've moved forward as much as people would like to
think. It's just that when you're in a particular situation, good or
bad, it seems saturated with those good or bad qualities.
>
> Who created us? Who carved the scupltor?
I still like this question.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Out here space drops off.
> > > To fathom the infinite know
> >
> > Here? Beyond the place where the "who" carves the sculptor? I feel as
> > if I transported here without recollection as to how to get "here".
> > Should I want to know?
>
> If we "blow it", meaning, if we destroy ourselves, wipe ourselves off the
> planet. Our spirits will be thrown into space (if you believe in an
> eternal spirit). This was not intended to be a traditional Christian
> concept, but more eastern in nature. Hence, space drops off, as if we were
> tipped off of the edge of the world into space.
>
>
> >
> >
> > That disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> > > upon which the universe up-ends.
> >
> > Out of balance. I've got that. What I don't know is how you've got
> > "here" from "there".
>
> Again, the mystical concept that the reason all of are here in the first
> place is because we have fallen from a higher plane due to our selfish
> desires. The mystical concept that heaven cannot allow any being who is
> not in harmony with the one, the Godhead, into the upper realms, otherwise
> the upper realms would be corrupted too. It's not like we are forceed to
> come here, it's more like the beings of the upper realms are saying,
I've heard about the "selfish desires" and falling. But how did it all
happen in the first place?
"We
> don't care where you go, but you can't stay here," you know, the
> traditional closing-time mantra at bars.
Heh. I like this.
>
> The idea that it is this disharmony which led us here in the first place,
> and only by learning to live in harmony *here* can we ever return to those
> higher realms. We are here to learn to live in harmony. That's the whole
> point.
I agree about the harmony/balance thing.
The idea is, that if we can't do that, we not only can't save our
> planet, we can't return to the higher realms.
You make "we" sound like one person.
>
> Universe up-ends---galaxy after galaxy with no life left on any planet,
> wiped out by failed societies. Failure in the physical realm projected to
> infinity---the reverse of success projected to infinity. Disharmony,
> again. In this case, actually up-ending the entire universe.
>
> Disharmony is where it starts. Of course, that's the problem. Everyone has
> their own ideas of how the world needs to be changed to ensure greater
> harmony. Even *plans* for harmony can sometimes differ from one another
> and clash with one another and cause disharmony. It can be quite a
> dilemma. The mystics of many differing religions and philosophies, around
> the world and from different eras, are in agreement to an uncanny extent
> about how to find our way out of this dilemma, how to achieve harmony. I
> believe that.
I see the entire idea of one man's idea of harmony vs. the another
man's idea of the same being played out and causing friction from the
small scale to the large scale. I've also seen different aims leading
to that said harmony.
>
> So, you see, the previous poster was wrong about nihilism, because I
> believe there is a way out.
Me too.
The whole poem is a warning. It's a "what if"
> scenario. Can we avoid total destruction? Who knows? But the level of
> disharmony in the world is the measure of our success in that direction.
Thankee for the words.
>
>
>
>
> Randy
Dennis M. Hammes
>
>
> This one's not new either.
>
>
>
> DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>
>
> Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
> Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
"jesusfuck." Probably unintentionally, you commit a more atrocious
pun than even I'd permit myself (certainly in the context):
"disengage(memt)" is a technique in sword.
>
> It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
>
> The heaving hills scatter great stones
Rock-vomit? This could get interesting...
> in their slow migration south.
Nope. Glaciers, not hills, do this.
>
> Here walking the earth’s edge
...you fall off like Columbus.
Five centuries ago, this was cliche; today, it's merely false.
> it’s too bright even with sunglasses.
The earth? The edge? The vomiting hills?
"It," kid, "it."
Even the cliche useage has an obvious referent; this doesn't.
>
> I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
> then turn to white sand at my approach.
Ho! Barfing /dunes/, not "hills."
(Sri, I'd forgotten the title or ignored it. On UseNet, all caps
indicates shouting or screaming.)
>
> Who is that distant image?
> Who is it carves the sculptor?
Who invited /him/?
Does Occam shave the Barber?
Is he carving hills, himself, or turkey?
Is the Turkey Greecy?
Does it make me Hungary?
Or is it why the hills, ah, dunes are heaving?
>
> Out here space drops off.
Nope. That was me.
> To fathom the infinite know
<SHRIEK>
(Or maybe Shreck...)
>
> that disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> upon which the universe up-ends.
>
I might believe you if "that" disharmony had a referent.
Yeah, I know; grammatical enjambement.
Well, it heaved on ya because the pome wasn't prepared to swallow
it. When you "make use of the line" by end-stopping it throughout,
you can /not/ enjamb the penult by itself.
Or one little comma might have saved it, since you use punct
elsewhere.
Something besides the mess, but a mess.
--
-------(m+
~/:o)_|
/Addo, ergo sum/.
http://scrawlmark.org
The Jinn
"Diana" <Diana_of...@excite.com> wrote in message news:1139984982....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> The Jinn wrote:
>> "Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstca...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>>
>> Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
>> beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
>>
>>
Sometimes I'm glad you can't.
But happy V-Day. :)
> You could give Randy some
> advise and tell him what could improve this particular piece, if
> anything, ya know.
Why? Poets /that/ bad and /that/ pompous never take advise
and I have no interest in helping poets, anyway.
More fun to poke them and watch them whine. :)
> Does rec.arts have to be about Who's On Your Side?
I don't have a side. I have a grudge. :)
> *eyes rolled all to sky* You have more to say about poetry than you let
> on.
I say it will look better on porn.
Sherrie Lee
Yes. "Simply getting by has its drawbacks/Disengagement can be a
double-edged sword." Means more than "it cuts both ways". Cliches
bookend the lines (I can't remember if it was a stanza; I'm going by
the words chopped up in this post.) The painted picture looks like a
sword drawing...back. As soon as the double-edged sword enters the
poem, it looks like a dead body. And that's quiet. Like a grave "ringed
in silence". But, it's not quiet. Who buried it? Who wrote the
headstone. It's a style common of certain writers of certain light.
"And the light becomes my pen".
Shoot, I wish I could write more now.
Sherrie Lee
Randy Scop
pandora wrote:
Well, I've reconsidered his pont, though. As Dennis said, all caps is considered
shouting now, in e-mails and on the internet, and that, in a way, colud
constitute as change in "usage". I knew that about caps, but never considered it
in regard to poems, since so many of my poetry books use that format. I think
perhaps I'll change formats in the future, though, for that reason. Times
change. This might be good advice.
Randy
Sick Mind
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote
> Sick Mind wrote:
>> There are skillful uses of obscurity that can get past people's
>> preconceived notions and biases, but I couldn't find that here. The
>> last
>> two lines gave you away as a sort of American pseudo-taoist many of us
>> know and wish we didn't.
> Well, to be a pseudo-Taoist, wouldn't I have to first think I am, or
> claim to be a Taoist?
No, not at all.
> I never have, and I wouldn't. I respect the tradition too much to
> be that phoney about it.
I wasn't suggesting any intentional "phoniness" (sp?) or disrespect.
> And frankly, I think most weterners who *think* they know the Tao are
> *all*
> pseudo-Taoists in a certain sense, because the western mindset is so
> different
> from the eastern mindset. And the Tao is such a difficult concept to
> grasp even
> for someone from the east. Or, I guess a Taoist would say that to talk
> about
> *grasping* the Tao is to miss the point entirely.
>
> I am well aware that although I have read three or four books about the
> Tao, it
> is still a mystery to me, and don't pretend to understand anything more
> than a
> few simple concepts, which would make the the lowest kind of beginner if
> I were
> actually trying to learn it from a true eastern Taoist master. Still, I
> think
> westerners can learn a lot of good things from it.
>
> I 've been influenced by the Tao, that's true. And I've written other
> poems
> where the influence is more or less center-stage. But I don't see that so
> much in this one.
>
> Well, I may have failed to do anything worthwhile here. But it's no sin
> to write a bad poem, thank God.
I am going to go way out on the limb here and compare Christianity and
Taoism. They are very different of course but there are similarities worth
mentioning. Both have been considered challenges to authority and
tradition. Both survived the long centuries because they provided a
healthy skepticism of authority and tradition and helped bring about
important reforms without calling for the total elimination of authority
and tradition. However both have also been misinterpreted as being a means
to the total elimination of authority and tradition. Misreading is quite
common, but it is especially difficult to read across culture.
Many passages in Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu can seem to suggest that right
and wrong are relative or that they are not important, but only when taken
out of the full context. Here is a passage from Chuang Tzu; see whether
you recognize it:
When "this" and "that" have no opposites, that is the very
axis of Tao. Only when the axis occupies the center of
the circle can things in their infinite complexities be
responded to. The right is infinity. The wrong is also
infinity. --The Lao Tzu "The Equality of Things" (ch. 2)
But the same source also says:
Great courage does not injure.
And:
Courage that injures the nature of things will not
succeed.
The Lao Tzu (ch. 80) is somewhat more amenable to
authority and tradition:
Let them relish their food, beautify their clothing, be
content with their homes, and delight in their customs.
It (ch. 81) also says:
The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure.
In your poem you "upend" the universe, but where is the redeeming
social value?
Sick Mind
boro...@onaypamsay.att.net
Randy Scop
Diana wrote:
> Randy Scop wrote:
> > Diana wrote:
> >
> > > Randy Scop wrote:
> > > > This one's not new either.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
> > > > Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
> > >
> > > I start to ask myself why disengagement is that "double-edged sword".
> > > It isn't clear. Disengagement from what? Deserts, harmony, life?
> >
> > Now, remember, my *whole point* was to be obscure. Perhaps that's not a
> > good thing for a poet to do---especially if he/she wants readers, that is.
> > But I was writing this for myself. I was experimenting.
>
> Experimenting isn't bad. I hang out with Experimenting, too. But you
> posted him/her/it here, and now all types of comments will ensue! ;)
> >
> I have to say that I'm amazed at how fast you get all your
> words/thoughts out.
That's because I have thought about these subjects for years, to the point where
they are right on the tip of my tongue.
>
>
> A bunch of "I agree" and "hmmmms" to follow:
>
> >
> > Disengagement from life---the big picture---compared to our private little
> > corners. Hedonism vs. service to humanity. Decadence. It's the whole idea
> > that decadence out of control eventually is self-destructive, hence,
> > double-edged sword. I was reading about Gandhi's method of Satyagraha at
> > the time. Satyagraha is nonviolent political action. Action means active.
> > Satyagrahis are not passive. They very actively seek out injustice and
> > confront it head on, but nonviolently, and with the ultimate goal of
> > discovering truth, and, through the discovery of truth, the uplift of all
> > humanity.
>
> About the poem you posted:
>
> Perhaps you have too many ideas that you want your one poem to address.
Probably. I sometimes try to do that in my essays as well, start with too broad
of a thesis statement and end up trying to cram too much stuff in too little
space.
>
> If you piecemeal these ideas over several poems you might get more
> across to your reader.
That's an idea. I have considered doing that with other poems.
> I know this poem was more for just you, but if
> you plan on revising it someday...
Maybe so.
I was also experimenting with juxtaposition. I started with the idea, and tried
to think of any juxtaposition that popped into my head in order to express it.
>
>
> Satyagraha. That's what they call it there in India.
Many people are mstaken about Gandhi and his ideas, even some of his greatest
admirers. They think he was an absolute pacifist. He was not. Some evils, he
thought, were so great as to require a violent response. He even publicly
supported various wars while he was alive. But he also believed that any violent
response is like making a bargain with the devil---it may be ethically and
morally warannted, and be a practical neccesity at the time, but it can set off
a chain of events that can be very dangerous to all involved. Great care is
called for in those kinds of situations. An absolute pacifist would say that
non-violence is a moral absolute, and that any kind of violence at any time is
wrong. It's interesting how many couter-culture types from the sixties were
confused on this point. In fact, the couter-cultrue had a split-personality in
that regard. They, as a group with shared values, couldn't decide if they were
for riots and violent revolution, or peace and love. Many of them revered
Gandhi, but most of them are confused about his actual beliefs. Gandhi would
have been horrified at some of the tactics used by people in those
times---spitting on soldiers retuning home from Vietnam, for example. Gandhi
would have abhored that kind of political activism. Satygrahis are taught not
only to *treat* their political oponents with respect, but to *actually* respect
them as human beings. Gandhi would have said that spitting on soldiers would
merely sew new and deeply bitter seeds of conflict. He was right, of course. It
is still apparent in the divisions between liberals and conservatives to this
day. It was a terrible mistake to use such tactics. It was an injustice trying
to solve an injustice.
For Gandhi, nonviolence was a conscious choice, and above all, the best *tool*
for discovering truth. He considered it a personal commitment to a difficult
discipline.
> I like it. Thas
> like "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I
> did not come to bring peace, but a sword" --Sir Jehus
That's one of those quotes I have a hard time attributing ot Jesus, for I
consider him to be similar to Gandhi in his message of non-violent political
action. He is so much like Gandhi (Gandhi himself said that Jesus had a big
influence on him), that it's hard for me to believe he wasn't as savvy as
Gandhi. Another thing people tend to forget about Gandhi; he didn't just think
this stuff up as a hypoethetical philosophy; he put it into action for some 40
or 50 years, on the front lines of conflict. By actually putting it into action
over and over, he made adjustments to his philosophy, he *learned* as he went
along; he made adjustmets as he learned. He continually tried to discover
untruths in his own point of view and truths in the poitns of views of others.
The philosophy of Satyagraha grew from hands-on experience, learning what worked
and what didn't work.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It seems our bones thirst for dust,
> > > > to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
> > >
> > > Our bones thirst for dust. I start to think of a place for rest. What
> > > is a "desert shoal"? Is it a group of people, things, or sea life?
> > > "Ringed in silence"? Why "ringed"?
> >
> > As a species, we sometimes seem bent on our own destruction.
> > Desertification is the erosion of life itself, the opposite of water,
> > fertility, greeness, everything we associate with life. Our bones (our
> > core). At our core, in other words, our self-destructive ways seem to go
> > to our very core, as a species.
>
> I agree, and hmmm. But is it ever completely, completely a desert?
> There's surely some water somewhere hiding about.
True. Some think Mars was not always the desert it is today, and even on Mars
there's still some water.
>
> >
> > I have been on top of desert mountains and found fossilized shark's teeth.
> > I liked the contrast of shoals (normally associated with seas) and
> > deserts. River shoals are merley banks of collected sand. They are all
> > over the place in the desert. Bones collect in strata as fossils. There is
> > no law of nature that says we cannot go the way of the dinosaurs. In that
> > sense our species is no different than any other species. Ringed---all
> > around. Nothing but silence.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The heaving hills scatter great stones
> > > > in their slow migration south.
> > >
> > > The use of heaving and slow sounds not quite right. "Heaving" and
> > > "slow" are at odds with one another. The hills are heaving and
> > > scattering, but they are moving slowly.
Actually, Dennis is probably right on this point. Hills probably don't scatter
stones to much as just carry them along. Or, like a cork bobbing on ripples in a
pond, maybe the hills actually pass under the stones while the stones stay in
one place.
I wish I held that view. My view is that things are much worse than they seem,
and that people just haven't gotten hip to it yet, and may not *get* hip to it
fast enough to prevent disaster.
> I don't think we humans have slipped backwards so much.
I think the ways we have slipped back are mostly invisible to us, because we
have advanced forward in so many ways. But I think society is definitely
suffering from fragmentation, partly due to the new realities brought about
through the industrial revolution, now compounded by our new age of technology.
> I
> don't always think we've moved forward as much as people would like to
> think.
Not when we forget timeless wisdom. It's quite a shame to think there are things
Socrates knew about about the world 2,500 years ago, but which most modern-day
humans have yet to discover---very important things which could help us
understand ourselves as a society and help us survive as a species, as a society
of humans.
> It's just that when you're in a particular situation, good or
> bad, it seems saturated with those good or bad qualities.
> >
> > Who created us? Who carved the scupltor?
>
> I still like this question.
From a scientific point of view, the question make no sense, And even from a
mystical point of view we are left with the chicken-or-egg delimma. But for
anyone who believes in a kind of spirituality, its a question that rises from
time to time. We look around and know all of this stuff came from some where,
but where and how? OK, the Big Bang is resonsible. But where did the singularity
that caused the Big Bang come from? What made it go off when it did? Where did
space some from? There can be no such thing as no space. How far does it go?
Forever, obviously. But it boggles the mind to think of it. Is space (not the
universe) expanding? Does space have and edge to it that is moving outward? No.
Because there would have to be space for it to move into. It seems obvious that
space would have to be limitless. But we live in a world of limits. It's hard
for us to imagine such a thing. I like trying to imagine it though. It puts me
in a state of awe.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Out here space drops off.
> > > > To fathom the infinite know
> > >
> > > Here? Beyond the place where the "who" carves the sculptor? I feel as
> > > if I transported here without recollection as to how to get "here".
> > > Should I want to know?
> >
> > If we "blow it", meaning, if we destroy ourselves, wipe ourselves off the
> > planet. Our spirits will be thrown into space (if you believe in an
> > eternal spirit). This was not intended to be a traditional Christian
> > concept, but more eastern in nature. Hence, space drops off, as if we were
> > tipped off of the edge of the world into space.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > That disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
> > > > upon which the universe up-ends.
> > >
> > > Out of balance. I've got that. What I don't know is how you've got
> > > "here" from "there".
> >
> > Again, the mystical concept that the reason all of are here in the first
> > place is because we have fallen from a higher plane due to our selfish
> > desires. The mystical concept that heaven cannot allow any being who is
> > not in harmony with the one, the Godhead, into the upper realms, otherwise
> > the upper realms would be corrupted too. It's not like we are forceed to
> > come here, it's more like the beings of the upper realms are saying,
>
> I've heard about the "selfish desires" and falling. But how did it all
> happen in the first place?
Good question. How does anyone who starts out good go bad?
>
>
> "We
> > don't care where you go, but you can't stay here," you know, the
> > traditional closing-time mantra at bars.
>
> Heh. I like this.
lol
And it pretty much represents the idea of a number of mystics I have read---you
know, that nothing is forced upon us but the consequences of out own actions;
that we are here by choice; the idea being, however, that we may not have had
many choices to choose from before coming here.
lol
>
> >
> > The idea that it is this disharmony which led us here in the first place,
> > and only by learning to live in harmony *here* can we ever return to those
> > higher realms. We are here to learn to live in harmony. That's the whole
> > point.
>
> I agree about the harmony/balance thing.
>
> The idea is, that if we can't do that, we not only can't save our
> > planet, we can't return to the higher realms.
>
> You make "we" sound like one person.
I know I don't speak for society, in the sense of representing society; but I am
speaking of human society as a whole---the entire human race.
>
> >
> > Universe up-ends---galaxy after galaxy with no life left on any planet,
> > wiped out by failed societies. Failure in the physical realm projected to
> > infinity---the reverse of success projected to infinity. Disharmony,
> > again. In this case, actually up-ending the entire universe.
> >
>
> > Disharmony is where it starts. Of course, that's the problem. Everyone has
> > their own ideas of how the world needs to be changed to ensure greater
> > harmony. Even *plans* for harmony can sometimes differ from one another
> > and clash with one another and cause disharmony. It can be quite a
> > dilemma. The mystics of many differing religions and philosophies, around
> > the world and from different eras, are in agreement to an uncanny extent
> > about how to find our way out of this dilemma, how to achieve harmony. I
> > believe that.
>
> I see the entire idea of one man's idea of harmony vs. the another
> man's idea of the same being played out and causing friction from the
> small scale to the large scale. I've also seen different aims leading
> to that said harmony.
I think if Gandhi's ideas were adopted by more activists, politicians, religious
followers, etc., that alone would reduce a lot of conflict in the world. Anyone
of any religious, political, or philosophical persuasion could use his ideas as
a way to further their political agenda. There's one caveat, however. If
following Gandhis method of Satyagraha honestly, one must abandon their own
poltical cause if during the process of promoting it, new evidence is uncovered
that leads them to see that it is unjust. Not many political activists these
days are willing to do that. Of course, this means that there is a subjective
quality to the *truth* that people uncover in the process of practicing
Satyagraha. Gandhi understood that too. But he felt that if the Satyagrahi was
honest enough with him or herself, they would continue to progress to a higher
truth over time. That's the whole point. And he felt that the highest truths
tended to uplift *all* humanity in some way, not just the activist and their
narrow political cause.
>
> >
> > So, you see, the previous poster was wrong about nihilism, because I
> > believe there is a way out.
>
> Me too.
But I don't think enough people see a way out. And I think there are too many
people who only know how to escalate conflict, not to resolve it. People can't
do better until they know better.
>
>
> The whole poem is a warning. It's a "what if"
> > scenario. Can we avoid total destruction? Who knows? But the level of
> > disharmony in the world is the measure of our success in that direction.
>
> Thankee for the words.
Thank you for your response, Diana.
Randy
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Randy
Sherrie Lee
I'm only learning about this, but that sounds like oop logic. Since I'm
not fluent, I can say there comes the variable of prediction that is
acted out of faith of a behavior, a pattern; in other words, an action
is made as a result of a reasonable prediction based on a behavior.
When the future becomes present the past prediction can be discovered
to have failed due to some behavioural change. The key lies in faith,
likely. And when a course of something encounters a block, let's say an
earthquake, one might count on, depend on, rely on, a pattern or
something dependent/dependable (like man's ability to work up a
skyscraper). I don't know that there is a word. I don't think it's
something as hokey as truth, and I doubt it's a lie. Anyway, there you
go.
The Jinn
"Sick Mind" <boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:cYGIf.400823$qk4.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
Taoists have some really hinkey semen retention practices.
Christians had Blake:
"In l893 Edwin Ellis and William Butler Yeats
repeated the rumor, noting that "It is said
that Blake wished to add a concubine to his
establishment in the Old Testament manner,
but gave up the project because it made
Mrs. Blake cry."
--
AJ - http://clitin.com
(the biggest clit in pornetry)
Sat.Map: http://tinyurl.com/cjo5b
>
>
> Sick Mind
> boro...@onaypamsay.att.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The Jinn
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message news:43F35927...@lanternslides.net...
>
>
> Diana wrote:
>
>> Randy Scop wrote:
>> > Diana wrote:
>> >
>> > > Randy Scop wrote:
>> > > > This one's not new either.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
>> > > > Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
>> > >
>> > > I start to ask myself why disengagement is that "double-edged sword".
>> > > It isn't clear. Disengagement from what? Deserts, harmony, life?
>> >
>> > Now, remember, my *whole point* was to be obscure. Perhaps that's not a
>> > good thing for a poet to do---especially if he/she wants readers, that is.
>> > But I was writing this for myself. I was experimenting.
>>
>> Experimenting isn't bad. I hang out with Experimenting, too. But you
>> posted him/her/it here, and now all types of comments will ensue! ;)
>> >
>> I have to say that I'm amazed at how fast you get all your
>> words/thoughts out.
>
> That's because I have thought about these subjects for years, to the point where
> they are right on the tip of my tongue.
That, and you think you know something that people hadn't heard
15 times before, so you blather out your /wisdom/.
O... and your opinions. Heh...
And now you think Gandi had something to do with Taoism?
>
>
>>
>>
>> A bunch of "I agree" and "hmmmms" to follow:
>>
>> >
>> > Disengagement from life---the big picture---compared to our private little
>> > corners. Hedonism vs. service to humanity. Decadence. It's the whole idea
>> > that decadence out of control eventually is self-destructive, hence,
>> > double-edged sword.
Heh... yeah... everyone would get that.
Heh...
Rob Evans
<ajinn...@here.nu> writes>ubo.6...@nntp.petitmorte.net...
>
>> The RAP-purge is going pretty well. Angel is silent, and Bob E,
>> pandora and that boring Finnish bloke who knows three or four guitar
>> chords are much quieter than they used to be.
>
>You're next.
>
poor Tom
poor Tom
If only you knew
how this stuff works.
Rob
--
Rob Evans
When I see a swine
I reach for 45-calibre pearls.
Rob Evans
<f...@net.com> writes
In --- purse lips, suck dentures, hunch shoulders --- deed!
Rob
--
Rob Evans
Randy Scop
Sick Mind wrote:
> "Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote
>
> > Sick Mind wrote:
>
> >> There are skillful uses of obscurity that can get past people's
> >> preconceived notions and biases, but I couldn't find that here. The
> >> last
> >> two lines gave you away as a sort of American pseudo-taoist many of us
> >> know and wish we didn't.
>
> > Well, to be a pseudo-Taoist, wouldn't I have to first think I am, or
> > claim to be a Taoist?
>
> No, not at all.
My dictionary gives the following definition:
----------
pseudo
a learnned borrowing from Greek meaning "false", "pretended", "unreal", used in
the formation of compound words (pseuoclassic) ; in scientific use, denoting
deceptive resemblance to the following element (pseudomorph), and used often in
chemical names of isomers. also esp. before a vowel. [Gk pseudes - false]
----------
Now, I am not a false Taoist, a pretended Taoist, or an unreal Taoist. In fact,
I am not any kind of Taoist at all. And I am only guilty of deception in the
sense that I was intentionally trying to be elusive, or obscure. But in that
sense, people who devise riddles are guilty of deception as well.
There was a movie that came out in the eighties called Qoyanisquatsi ( In know
the spelling is wrong, but I can't find the proper spelling for it). It is a
Native American term for "life out of balance". Using your argument, they too
could be considered to be pseudo-Taoists since they hold ideas about the
problems that result when life gets out of balance.
Taoists felt that people should learn the concepts discovered by the Taoist
masters and apply them to their everyday lives. They felt that practicing its
truths would bring about a better life for everyone. It was balance that was
important to them, and wise behavior, not whether or not anyone had some kind
of official stamp of approval from some "authority" of Taoism. There can be no
true authority other than the eternal Tao itself. And while I'll agree there
are many people who flirt with Taosim and make a big show of their interest in
it, because they think it's....sexy....is the only word that comes to
mind---I'm not one of them and never have been. I have too much respect for the
tradition, and am too mystified by it to ever claim to be a Taoist.
But in my opinion it would be better for people to actually practise the advice
of Taoists rather than go around claiming to be a Taoist, or to behave in ways
that a Taoist would find to be destructive of balance. Destructive people are
even further from the Tao than pseudo-Taoists are, that is, if the
pseudo-Taoists are properly putting Taoist views into practice, regardless of
the reason, whether from sincerity or because they think it is "fashionable".
I don't think one needs to be a Taoist master to be able follow the advice of
Taoist masters.
I think it is incorrect to characterize either Christianity or Taoism as being
homogenous belief systems within themselves. But that's OK, this is one of
those generalities that I'm thinking is due more to word choice than anything
else. I'm guilty of that all the time. That's why I don't mind when posters
point it out to me. I forces me tighten-up my writing.
The early Christians were an extremely diverse bunch. And yes, in those days
most Christians were challenging various authorities in various ways. I don't
know nearly as much about the history of Taoism.
> They are very different of course but there are similarities worth
> mentioning. Both have been considered challenges to authority and
> tradition. Both survived the long centuries because they provided a
> healthy skepticism of authority and tradition
Yes, but eventually the Roman church became the ultimate and virtually absolute
authority in Europe, didn't it?
> and helped bring about
> important reforms without calling for the total elimination of authority
> and tradition.
Martin Luther was obsiously of the tradition of challengers of authority. He
was both a Christian and a challenger to established Christianity.
> However both have also been misinterpreted as being a means
> to the total elimination of authority and tradition.
Yes, Jesus (supposedly) said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render
unto my Father what is my Father's." (or words to that effect)
> Misreading is quite
> common, but it is especially difficult to read across culture.
Yes, and across language as well. Western translators have that added
difficulty to deal with. I have looked for years for good books on the Tao.
Western experts on the Tao seem to be few and far between.
>
>
> Many passages in Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu can seem to suggest that right
> and wrong are relative or that they are not important, but only when taken
> out of the full context. Here is a passage from Chuang Tzu; see whether
> you recognize it:
>
> When "this" and "that" have no opposites, that is the very
> axis of Tao. Only when the axis occupies the center of
> the circle can things in their infinite complexities be
> responded to. The right is infinity. The wrong is also
> infinity. --The Lao Tzu "The Equality of Things" (ch. 2)
I don't recognize the excerpt, but it expresses what I understand (again, the
Tao is ultimately not to be understood) to be at the heart of the Taoist
philosophy of not-philosophy.
lol
Taoists never let you forget that, do they? They stop you up short whenever you
try to nail it down too specifically, to remind you that there is a reality
that transcends anything you can ever say about that reality.
>
>
> But the same source also says:
> Great courage does not injure.
> And:
> Courage that injures the nature of things will not
> succeed.
yes
funny you should mention injury
>
>
> The Lao Tzu (ch. 80) is somewhat more amenable to
> authority and tradition:
> Let them relish their food, beautify their clothing, be
> content with their homes, and delight in their customs.
>
> It (ch. 81) also says:
> The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure.
Do you like science fiction (speculative fiction is probably a better word for
the book I'm about to recommend, although ti takes place in the near future).
Ursulla Le Guinn wrote a book called "The Lathe of Heaven". It was made into a
movie in the early seventies. The production quality of the movie is very bad
in many ways, but I still consider it to be a very well-made movie considering
its small budget. I once read an interview with Le Guinn about the book and the
movie. The story was based on Taosist principals. George Orr, the main
character, was born with this unexplainable gift (or curse)---opposites from
the start---to alter reality by simply having an unconsious wish that it were
so. Then when he went to sleep, he would dream that things were the way he
subconsciously wished they were. When he awoke, reality was altered to reflect
the reality of the his subconscious wish---at least, when it was one of those
kinds of dreams. Sometimes he dreamed normally. Not just his little part of the
world was altered, but the entire planet! Everyone and everything! Eventually
he was sent to a psychiatrist. The first time the psychiatrist hypnotized Orr
and gave him a hypnotic suggestion, the psychiatist realized Orr wasn't lying
or crazy---the fabric of reality acutally*was* altered by Orr's mind.
The psychiatrist then starts using Orr as a tool to manipulate reality in the
way that he, the psychiatrist, wishes it to be. He moves from his tiny office
to an emense, plush complex---which is named after him, no less. Needless to
say, things get pretty fucked up through all of his manipulations, because they
tended to be selfish and poorly thought out. Haber, the psychiatrist, couldn't
grasp the concept that manipulating reality without considering balance can be
disaterous. And, as the Tao predicts, Haber eventually is destroyed by his own
manipulations of reality.
Ther is a Toaist experssion (something to the effect of) "Do not worry about
defeating your enemies, just sit on the riverbank and watch as their bodies,
one by one, float down the river and out to the sea." I'm sure I am
bastardizing this terribly, but that's the best I can remember it. The conept,
of course, is that destructive people tend to destroy themselves in the end,
you know, the Greek tragedy thing, the seeds of destruction always being found
within.
Le Guinn's book is a kind of sustained allegory---I guess you'd call it---that
epresses Taoist principals from her sense of them.
>
>
> In your poem you "upend" the universe, but where is the redeeming
> social value?
I was referring to the physical universe, not the spiritual one---in the sense
that we are spritual beings exiled to the physical plane. Using the premise I
stated in a previous post, we *need* the physical universe as a home where we
can work through our spiritual dilemmas and refine ourselve to the point where
we can finally rejoin the spiritual realms. But what if we use up the physical
plane before we finish the task? What if we manage to detroy every planet we
live on, to the point where we finally use up every habitable planet in the
universe? Is it all over then? Is the deal done, over, forever? Are we locked
out of heaven for good? Can we ever use up our last chance? I now realize I
used a similar device to Le Guinn's. In my case I project planetary destruction
to the ultimate limit---the final destruction of every habitable planet in
every gallaxy in the universe. In Le Guinn's case, it was *personal power* that
was projected to the realms of the absolute---and only one person on the planet
had this power--George Orr. But in her story the planet managed to avoid total
destruction. The psychiatrist, however, managed to destroy himself and his
mind. And everyone on the planet suffers terribly throughout all of Hanber's
manipulations. Eventually almost every person on the planet (six billion
people) is killed by a plague caused by Haber's manipulations. Interestingly,
Geore Orr, after all of the destruction, does not try to put things back the
way they were, although he still has the power. The moral is, that Orr
suspected from the beginning what Haber had to find out the hard way, that any
manipulation he might attempt is doomed to somehow backfire, because Orr is
only one individual, and does not have the wisdom of that Oneness, that cosmic
unity which transcends everything that we can imagine here in this world of
polarities that we find ourselves in.
Maye your perception was correct to begin with. Maybe there was more of the Tao
in my poem than I realized. I'm not comparing myself to Le Guinn---I'm not even
a speck on her shoe, as a writer---but would you also say Le Guinn is a
pseudo-Taoist for using Taoist priciples in the way she did in her story?
>
>
> Sick Mind
> boro...@onaypamsay.att.net
I just got through reading (about a month ago) what os one of the best books on
Taoism that I've ever read. I highly recommend it. And it's very short, a good
book for beginners. It's called "Simple Taoism, a Guide to Living in Balance,"
by Alexander and Annelen Simkins.
What I was struck by was the vast differences in the phiosophies of the various
schools of thought and the various ages of Taoism. Taoism, like the
Judeo-Christian tradition, at various times in its evolution was not a
homogeneous belief system. Even that mistates it. Each era was sometimes a
complete break with previous eras, in many ways. Taoism changed radically
throughout its history. And the Taoist masters from earlier eras no doubt would
have been appalled by, and strongly oppposed to, many of the changes that came
in later eras. But eventually a Taoism arose that managed to find balance
between the various eras and schools of thought. There are serious conflicts
between the various original schools, which at times were considered
unresolvable by various masters. Wars were fought over these differences.
Doesn't sound very Toaist, does it? And the Simpkins gave examples of how some
influential Taoist masters eventually went bad (or, at least that's how I would
appraise it), and how others formed extremist cults, etc.
There are still many different schools of Taoist thought in China, but I would
guess that they are closer to agreement with one another than they have been
the case many times in the past.
I guess we shouldn't be suprised that Taoism suffered from many of the same
kinds of growing pains and dark days that western religions have suffered
through.
Many more modern Taoist scholars prefer Dao to Tao. The only reason I don't use
it is because I know people would be correcting me all the time. And, you know,
it's best to go with the flow.
:-D
Randy
Randy Scop
Diana wrote:
A great deal, if I may say so.
> Randy confirms it by
> explaining the ideas that led to its creation. IMO, it would be a much
> better poem if some of the word choices were stronger, if there were
> more words to connect the images-- to create sense and to give more
> life to what he wanted us to see.
I'm sure you are right.
> Otherwise, abstraction abounds.
Yes, most definitely.
> In
> some places the poem seems disjointed from previous lines and images.
I agree.
>
> People don't need to be hit over the head with explanation in a poem,
> but placing some guiding words here and there can help to flick the
> lightswitch on.
Yes, I obviously went too far down the obscurity path, or not far enough down
the clarity path. But anyone who could figure it out with as little help as I
have given them, would probably feel very happy with themselves. I see a
problem though, how would they ever know if they had deciphered the puzzle if
I never told them? It *was* actually a puzzle, not one of those poems that can
mean hundred diffent things. Of course, their chosen meaning might have value
to them anyway. But judging from most of the comments here---probably not.
> This poem makes me wish I could see it painted on a
> canvas. I love surrealism.
In this case it is surrealistic in nature in that it was dream images that
started the whole thing. But I also believe it to be closer to reality than I
wish were true. But surrealism, after all, is a reflection which contains
reality, or realities---whether inner or outer---but swirled around by some
magic movie director than we cannot see and who is not interested in screen
credits.
thanks
Randy
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> Sick Mind wrote:
>
>
>>"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote
>>
>>
>>>This one's not new either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>DESERTS AND DISHARMONY
>>>
>>>
>>>Simply getting by has its drawbacks.
>>>Disengagement can be a double-edged sword.
>>>
>>>It seems our bones thirst for dust,
>>>to collect in desert shoals ringed in silence.
>>>
>>>The heaving hills scatter great stones
>>>in their slow migration south.
>>>
>>>Here walking the earth's edge
>>>it's too bright even with sunglasses.
>>>
>>>I see silver lakes simmer in the horizon
>>>then turn to white sand at my approach.
>>>
>>>Who is that distant image?
>>>Who is it carves the sculptor?
>>>
>>>Out here space drops off.
>>>To fathom the infinite know
>>>
>>>that disharmony is the tiny fulcrum
>>>upon which the universe up-ends.
>>
>> Is it a sixteen-year-old American kid's idea of Taoism? It is more like Nihilism really. Grow
>>up, Randy.
>
>
> When I wrote this, I felt my poems were too obvious, in regard to meaning, and had no no mystery to
> them. So I was experimenting with obscurity of meaning. I took some images from a dream I had and
If I write "cat" while looking at a black cat, and you read "[white]
cat" because your cat is white, and Dockery reads "Barbara's Cat"
while Tommy reads "flat cat," what in /hell/ chance do you think you
have of predicating a reader by writing a word you saw in a dream?
What chances do the /interactions/ of such words have?
"In Xanadu did Kublai Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree
Where Alph, the sacred river ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunlit sea..."
which may be the single most famous dope dream pome aside from "Howl,
Part II" or Revelation, contains not one word about a dream, nor any
object found only in one. "Howl" rapidly devolves into screeching
about "Moloch! Moloch," which is a dream word no matter how many
"buttons dried peyote" one takes, and Revelation rapidly devolves
into seeing angels ascending into the sun, which is merely one thing
that can happen to those who stare at the desert sun.
Coleridge goes from that above to a damsel with a dulcimer.
Hot stuff. Even though /he/ never speaks of her playing his horn,
the reader gets there immediately.
> combined them with intentionally vague hints that pointed to what I decided the meaning of the dream
> was. I also borrowed philosophical points, which I agree with, from a fairly well-known author---at
> least, he was 30 years ago. It was an experiment. I guess it didn't add up to much. But I have never
> discovered how to start out from where I *want* to be. I have to start from where I am. If I get a
> creative idea, I follow it and see where it leads. I think I learned something in the process of writing
> this, but I was never sure how somone else might view it. Maybe it was a dead-end road. Oh well, you
> can't tell where a road will lead until you take it.
>
Frost has already become famous, and his acolytes infamous, for his
"The Figure a Poem Makes," in which he touts the method of "taking a
line for a walk," of letting a bit of ice "run on its own melting,"
to the bottom of the page.
He lies.
The bit of ice always gets to the bottom of /his pome/, not an
empty page. Nor does it run off the sides. It's a little map of
something, having six edges. "Six"; its universe does not leap off
the page at you (though readers may insist it fell out the back).
If you are going to have, say, four stanzas (and you pretty much
know this before you start), you have one for exposition, one for
development or countercharge, one for countercharge or synthesis, and
one for resolution. Or you have three for exposition and one for
summation.
Which?
Choose. Or let the ice choose, and then sweep the page ahead of
it, vigorishly, until it hits the little pink target. Gold Medal.
As I told my Scouts, "there are two things you /must/ know before
you can use a map and compass: where you are, and where you're going."
"What's the first thing you do when you [don't know where you are]
[are lost]?"
"SIT DOWN."
Do not reach for a pencil.
Do not collect $200.
> thanks
>
> I used to not like poems that I considered to be unsolvable in regard to meaning, but now they are some
> of my favorites. Of course, if they are too long, I get weary of them. But if they are fairly short, I
> will come back to them and read them again and again. I guess I've gotten to where I like a good puzzle.
> It makes me feel good when I figure them out.
>
>
> Randy
>
So figure this.
Pursuant to the bit about knowing where you are and where you're
going in order to cross a map, let alone to write one, I put a pome,
below, and ask if you can tell what is grievously, hideously wrong
with it according to all modern rules of composition theory, but esp.
the Ice Method.
No, it is not that it can't be figured out, or says something
quite other than what you think it does (it seZ what I told it to say
over 30 years ago).
Occupation
Though we'd signed treaties, some were yet
Destroying papers, scrounging a set
Of underwear,
Or pointing pictures. None was a Jew;
Still, we'd had to have a few
To walk on air.
Deprived of their he-manly toys,
Boys went back to being boys,
Store clerks, and robbers,
While we watched so that /Bundes/-boards
Beat no dictums into swords:
The peacetime jobbers.
After the bombs and bullet scars,
Twenty years rebuilt the bars
In downtown Munich;
A split arch prods the unafraid
With victory, and that methods made
It largely Punic,
"/Delenda est/." Our always prize:
The plain applause of net-sheathed thighs.
In reborn Bonn
The browning streams turned into beer,
/Fasching/ went off with a ragged cheer,
And drink went on.
Before we sat, I and this German
Had antipathy in common --
Nothing other.
But beer-talk plucked our eyes half out,
And the new view was more than doubt
Though less than brother.
Smooth whiskey played a Scottish skirl
As each approved the other's girl
And the Pieta,
Though we'd seen neither (took our word);
And, as sublime became absurd,
Misquoted Goethe.
He showed his tattoo with a grin,
And I mine: these approved us men,
With hides of leather;
At /wiedersehen/, our apocrypha,
The eagle and the swastika,
Were shaken together.
My ears distort all sound. Indeed,
The whole earth howls on my right side,
Providing data;
I watch /schnapps/ dissolve my watch
To wool, as world becomes a blotch
Of bright errata.
..2/11/73
Dennis M. Hammes
> blah mumble.
>
>
>
No, no, /no/.
"as;dlkfjsd;l as;dlkfjas
as;dlkfjs;dgh asldkjf
;slkdjfas;dlf as;dlkfjas..."
Remember?
Sherrie Lee
Yes. It can't be a lie that makes the skyscraper grow. The spirit
behind the structure is a sense of what is important. It is a sense of
priority. Now maybe that tall building grows due to a loss/sacrifice;
but that building is important. It will get built. No matter what.
I suppose that would be duty to the building. Honoring the structure.
Piss on all those who dedicated their lives to it, goddammit. That
building rose. Blah, blah, blah.
Sherrie Lee
Will Dockery
Sherrie Lee wrote:
>
> > >Worse, I look in the mirror, and I see you.
> > >I'm not kidding. Ask anyone who's met me in RL.
> > >Take that photo of you that's on the usenet poets'
> > >photo site and compare it to my looks. Same thing.
> > >What with that chin that makes a two smile face. Absolutely scary.
>
> Thank you. I wonder who it is? He's kinda cute.
Is there a link to a "Sherrie Lee" photo?
--
Tuesday Afternoon Show: Episode 14
Pudding-Wing Squadron
Scotto and Uncle John race against Mother Nature as they unveil
February's B-Movie Pick and a new version of Scarface. Meanwhile, Fred
gets ready for Tax Day. Featuring musical guests Will Dockery ("Ozone
Stigmata"), Causeway and Christine Anderson:
http://johnhmaloney.com/tuesdayshow/tasep14.mp3
"Hasty Pudding" by Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/dockeryconleytrio
Randy Scop
Sherrie Lee wrote:
I think I see what you mean, the kind of unraveling and explaining of complex
realities that is only possible after the fact, and that do not neccesarily reflect a
coherent reality, but seem to make sense in some way. Jung's synchronicity, for
example, I find to be an interesting tool of self-discovery, but it could easily be
explained as a drawing together of only the coincidences which support your prefered
conclusions.
Since the age of science, the word *superstition* has become mostly a pejorative term.
It is associated with superstitious beliefs, such as believing that carrying a
rabbit's foot around with you will bring you good luck.
But in the field of psychology, *superstitious leanrning* means something completely
different. All of us use superstitious learning more than we realize. Kicking the TV
because it seems to make it work better, is a kind of superstitious learning that
comes about through anger at a piece of technology that isn't functioning properly.
But if it works the first time, we may do it again---having no clue as to what is
actually going on inside the thing. Maybe this is a bad example, because we can guess
there may be some kind of short in the wires, or something.
My point, though, is that, lacking science, superstitous learning is one of the most
valuable tools of any intellingence creature, from a mouse to a human. It's simply a
matter of: if I do this thing, then that thing seems to happen. What many people don't
seem to realize is that mystical philosophy tends to come from experience, not
superstition. Of course, the interpretation of that experience is limited by your
frame of reference. But that is what makes msytical experience different than *dogma*.
Dogma is going by the book. True mystics, however, no matter what tradition they come
from, use *experience* as their teacher. It is direct experiecne they are after, not
someone else's opinion of what is what. Now, they may take the advice of someone who
they think has had the experience themselves, and try to learn from them so that they
can have the experience too, but they are ultimately seeking the experience for
themselves. They seek to Know.
There is now scientific data to support the idea that the altered states of
consciousness mystics claim to experience are not simply a product of their
imaginations. In other words, they aren't crazy. And they share similar
characteristics with mystics from other persuasions when the same kind of data is
gathered from them, through devices that measure brain waves, etc.
We often tend to think of our distant ancestors as total idiots, but *we* take for
grated, something they didn't have---science and technology. From that perspective
they *were* idiots, that is, if you go back tens of thousands of years ago. because if
the didn't have a model of thought for science, they had bits and pieces of it. But
they were often geniuses as preserving society, many of them, otherwise *we* wouldn't
be here. Sometimes I think they were far ahead of us in certain respects.
Randy
Randy Scop
The Jinn wrote:
> "Diana" <Diana_of...@excite.com> wrote in message news:1139984982....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > The Jinn wrote:
> >> "Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstca...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
> >> beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
> >>
> >>
> > Jinn, sometimes I feel like throttling you.
>
> Sometimes I'm glad you can't.
>
> But happy V-Day. :)
>
> > You could give Randy some
> > advise and tell him what could improve this particular piece, if
> > anything, ya know.
>
> Why? Poets /that/ bad and /that/ pompous
pompous? because I dared experiment?
Bad, probably, but if you'll look at my very first post, I think you'll see that I came around to thinking *all* my
poems were crap, more than once. Utimately, I explained, I hadn't a clue as to how good or bad my own poems were.
Is that you idea of pompous?
> never take advise
Taking advice is always optional. Evan agreeing with advice is always optional. But I appreciate advice if I agree with
it or not. And sometimes I first disagree but later agree. That's because I carefully *consider* the advice. What more
can you ask of me than that?
>
> and I have no interest in helping poets, anyway.
> More fun to poke them and watch them whine. :)
>
> > Does rec.arts have to be about Who's On Your Side?
>
> I don't have a side. I have a grudge. :)
Apparently you *are* a grudge---a grudge going off in all directions.
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> Sick Mind wrote:
>
...
>>
>> There are skillful uses of obscurity that can get past people's
>>preconceived notions and biases, but I couldn't find that here. The last
>>two lines gave you away as a sort of American pseudo-taoist many of us know
>>and wish we didn't.
>
...
>
> I 've been influenced by the Tao, that's true. And I've written other poems
> where the influence is more or less center-stage. But I don't see that so much
> in this one.
>
> Well, I may have failed to do anything worthwhile here. But it's no sin to
> write a bad poem, thank God.
>
It's NOT????
(mumble, grumble, zomble, gamble...)
>
>
> Randy
>
Unfortunately, you missed his point, which was not about the Tao, but
about obscurity for obscurity's sake, which you attest earlier to
having frolicked with in order to hide behind it.
It's the usual reason.
Eliot touches the notion severely in "Tradition and the Individual
Talent" (in /The Sacred Wood/), where he calls it "be[ing]
difficult." Lemme see...
http://www.bartleby.com/200/sw4.html
Enjoy.
ggamble
Randy Scop
The Jinn wrote:
> "Diana" <Diana_of...@excite.com> wrote in message news:1139984982....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > The Jinn wrote:
> >> "Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstca...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
> >> beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
> >>
> >>
> > Jinn, sometimes I feel like throttling you.
>
> Sometimes I'm glad you can't.
>
> But happy V-Day. :)
>
> > You could give Randy some
> > advise and tell him what could improve this particular piece, if
> > anything, ya know.
>
> Why? Poets /that/ bad and /that/ pompous never take advise
> and I have no interest in helping poets, anyway.
> More fun to poke them and watch them whine. :)
>
> > Does rec.arts have to be about Who's On Your Side?
>
> I don't have a side. I have a grudge. :)
What grudge could you have possibly had against me before you even knew me? Your first post to me had a grudge in
it.Your grudge existed before I came here.
You are a grudge looking for a cause. And you seem to find it
everywhere you look
Randy
pandora
>
>
> pandora wrote:
>
> >
> > Randy, meet gary. He's the asshole of the group apart from what you may
> > have been led to believe. He doesn't critique, he insults. And yes, he
> > likes to tell people what to do.
> >
> > Marg
>
> Well, I've reconsidered his pont, though. As Dennis said, all caps is
considered
> shouting now, in e-mails and on the internet, and that, in a way, colud
> constitute as change in "usage". I knew that about caps, but never
considered it
> in regard to poems, since so many of my poetry books use that format. I
think
> perhaps I'll change formats in the future, though, for that reason. Times
> change. This might be good advice.
You are free to do as you choose. For myself, I prefer all caps for the
titles. It is harmless. And changing your use of caps won't get you IN any
better with gary and the cabal. Trust me.
Marg
Dennis M. Hammes
> In article <43F20CDB...@lanternslides.net>,
> Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net> said:
>
> [ snipped for brevity ]
>
>
>>But it's no sin to write a bad poem, thank God.
>
>
> If it were, we're all on our way to Hell.
>
We are, anyway. The trick is getting back out.
(If you don't know how, you'll never get Eurydice out.)
Dennis M. Hammes
> "Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message news:43F20CDB...@lanternslides.net...
>
>
>>Well, I may have failed to do anything worthwhile here. But it's no sin to
>>write a bad poem, thank God.
>
>
> You can leave now, and save more humiliation.
>
> Turns out the technical term for your /poetry/ is: "crap"
>
>
Thass okay.
Turns out the technical term for /your/ shit is "Tommy Bishop."
There was an old Bishop of crap
Who woke from a long winter's nap
To find that his scheme
Was only a dream
That began when he woke to a slap.
Dreamed of any good butterflies lately, O Princess?
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> I see several allusions (who can tell if they're intentional; but they
> suggest an aquaintance with literary experience). Bones to dust had me
> pondering at first. Then doubt left with the Pygmalion bit, however,
> that's the only one I can say with confidence. Lot can be inferred.
>
Sculpting in salt?
Bones, dust, and desert give me Eliot ("Ash Wednesday," bones
chirping under a juniper) or "Ozymandias": "I am sculpture, hear me
roar."
But the leopards never show up.
The Jinn
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message news:43F38CC1...@lanternslides.net...
>
>
> The Jinn wrote:
>
>> "Diana" <Diana_of...@excite.com> wrote in message news:1139984982....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > The Jinn wrote:
>> >> "Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstca...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
>> >> beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Jinn, sometimes I feel like throttling you.
>>
>> Sometimes I'm glad you can't.
>>
>> But happy V-Day. :)
>>
>> > You could give Randy some
>> > advise and tell him what could improve this particular piece, if
>> > anything, ya know.
>>
>> Why? Poets /that/ bad and /that/ pompous
>
> pompous? because I dared experiment?
I never said that pomposity was bad.
Badness is separate.
I like the pomposity, generally.
She was saying I should give you advise which
is trickier with pompous people.
>
> Bad, probably, but if you'll look at my very first post, I think you'll see that I came around to thinking *all* my
> poems were crap, more than once. Utimately, I explained, I hadn't a clue as to how good or bad my own poems were.
No, that's stupid.
We are all mixtures of stupidity and brilliance.
That statement is on the stupid side, IMO.
>
> Is that you idea of pompous?
>
>
>> never take advise
>
> Taking advice is always optional. Evan agreeing with advice is always optional. But I appreciate advice if I agree with
> it or not. And sometimes I first disagree but later agree. That's because I carefully *consider* the advice. What more
> can you ask of me than that?
That you do it on your own time, or email.
Your prose is more imageless than your poetry.
>> and I have no interest in helping poets, anyway.
>> More fun to poke them and watch them whine. :)
>>
>> > Does rec.arts have to be about Who's On Your Side?
>>
>> I don't have a side. I have a grudge. :)
>
> Apparently you *are* a grudge---a grudge going off in all directions.
Many, not all.
Women, for example, all love me. :)
SBC must love me for keeping this account open
for months after paying for it.
ggamble
wrote:
>
>You are free to do as you choose. For myself, I prefer all caps for the
>titles. It is harmless. And changing your use of caps won't get you IN any
>better with gary and the cabal. Trust me.
>Marg
Indeed.
Methinks thine insistence that I'm in yon cabal is but a clever ploy
to disguiseth the fact that thou art in yon cabal, no?
Indeed.
Diana
Dennis M. Hammes wrote:
> Barbara's Cat wrote:
>
> > In article <43F20CDB...@lanternslides.net>,
> > Randy Scop <rs...@lanternslides.net> said:
> >
> > [ snipped for brevity ]
> >
> >
> >>But it's no sin to write a bad poem, thank God.
> >
> >
> > If it were, we're all on our way to Hell.
> >
>
> We are, anyway. The trick is getting back out.
> (If you don't know how, you'll never get Eurydice out.)
>
Aye, that.
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> One thing: randy sure doesn't know the difference between
> good and bad poetry. Not his own, not others.
>
>
Thass okay, neither do you.
There was an old Bishop of bad
Who tried a new altarboy fad,
But when all the chuckles
Rebuckled their buckles,
Well, that's when he knew he'd been had.
The Jinn
"Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message news:43F38DA9...@lanternslides.net...
>
>
> The Jinn wrote:
>
>> "Diana" <Diana_of...@excite.com> wrote in message news:1139984982....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > The Jinn wrote:
>> >> "Karla" <kar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:dstca...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Giving assigntments is easy, but resisting a Twinkie is
>> >> beyond you, isn't it, fattie K?
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Jinn, sometimes I feel like throttling you.
>>
>> Sometimes I'm glad you can't.
>>
>> But happy V-Day. :)
>>
>> > You could give Randy some
>> > advise and tell him what could improve this particular piece, if
>> > anything, ya know.
>>
>> Why? Poets /that/ bad and /that/ pompous never take advise
>> and I have no interest in helping poets, anyway.
>> More fun to poke them and watch them whine. :)
>>
>> > Does rec.arts have to be about Who's On Your Side?
>>
>> I don't have a side. I have a grudge. :)
>
> What grudge could you have possibly had against me before you even knew me? Your first post to me had a grudge in
> it.Your grudge existed before I came here.
So did my nipple rings. What's your point?
I'm a parody of an egotistical poet-wannabe.
>
> You are a grudge looking for a cause. And you seem to find it
>
>
> everywhere you look
As I recall, marion posted the last poem worth reading.
But as I say:
>> ,,, it will look better on porn.
The Jinn
"pandora" <pan...@peak.org> wrote in message news:4u6dnZdchMJ...@scnresearch.com...
>
> "Randy Scop" <rs...@lanternslides.net> wrote in message
> news:43F34885...@lanternslides.net...
>>
>>
>> pandora wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Randy, meet gary. He's the asshole of the group apart from what you may
>> > have been led to believe. He doesn't critique, he insults. And yes, he
>> > likes to tell people what to do.
>> >
>> > Marg
>>
>> Well, I've reconsidered his pont, though. As Dennis said, all caps is
> considered
>> shouting now, in e-mails and on the internet, and that, in a way, colud
>> constitute as change in "usage". I knew that about caps, but never
> considered it
>> in regard to poems, since so many of my poetry books use that format. I
> think
>> perhaps I'll change formats in the future, though, for that reason. Times
>> change. This might be good advice.
>
> You are free to do as you choose. For myself, I prefer all caps for the
> titles. It is harmless. And changing your use of caps won't get you IN any
> better with gary and the cabal. Trust me.
>
> Marg
Or me, but I'm subject to the usual discount. :)
--
AJ - http://clitin.com
(the biggest clit in pornetry)
Sat.Map: http://tinyurl.com/cjo5b
>
>>
>>
Sherrie Lee
Here's an if then we'll never know: if those ancient ancestors smoked a
lot of heroin and continued to live today, what kind of draw, if any,
would conclude from a game of chess (assuming the pawns would no longer
be of any 'good' use)? If those drugged out old farts were still living
and yanking their pipes, if that imaginary beast could exist, I doubt
I'd get the answer because I never could stay up till 4 in the morning
to watch chess, let alone play it. Yes, priorities/abilities interfere
to the point that I'd die were I to. Besides, I prefer solitaire unless
I'm on a team of two on the same side of touch. When we disengage, our
goal is to engage again, because it is sustenence. But you're right.
That selfish shit can get in the way. It might be why my fiance and I
keep in touch. Last night we went dancing. It was our first public
dance. He said he enjoyed dancing with me very much that I deduced his
surprise for me this Saturday night is that he's taking me to a place
to dance again. The only clue I have is he insists I wear my sexy new
boots and a dress (no jeans ):) I will tell the whole world one secret:
It's over if he ever threatens me with a metal that projects a harmful
liquid. Aw hell, that's not nice. But here's the real secret: I've lost
track of the screwdriver. I think if I approach him about it, he'll
say, "I'm sorry, Sherrie". Then help me look for it. Together, of
course. You know what he got me for Valentine's day? Two tables.
Apparently they were junk/garbage to someone. So like last year's
calendar, we read the scratches on the table like taro cards of the
past.
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> Now, remember, my *whole point* was to be obscure.
"Never, never, never, never, never."
> But I was writing this for myself.
>
So -- did you Find Yourself, there, then?
Or were you too obscure?
There was an old poet whose dog
Hauled him over the world at a jog,
But the edge was obscure
So he'll never be sure
If he's writing, or floating in fog.
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> Where's your poetry?
>
There was an old chuckles who humped
Any vinyl was doubly-bumped.
Home late from a date
With a used dinner-plate,
He found his whole house had been dumped.
And like that?