Is this "kitsch"?
Eva Bekker
sonds of night
**************
sometimes i listen
at night when all is silent
when i'm on my own
even the dog's fast asleep
and the only sound i hear
is my blue pencil
sneaking secretly, scratching
creating the words
of gloomy, dark love poems.
then i hear the wind
as it passes through the night
at times an owl hoots
most strange and alarming sound
my dog starts to snore
chasing rabbits in his dreams
i try to concentrate
but it's a hard thing to do.
muffled rumbling noise
a smacking, dry twigs breaking
below my window
it's the old thorny hedgehog
toddeling along.
a high frequence 'zing'
tells me the bats are hunting
and one lonely frog
squawks in despair for a wife -
hey, go back to sleep,
there's no frog-lady out now
they all are asleep.
tiny mice rustle
through the dry leaves on the ground -
take care, you small things
cats are out, silent hunters.
beech tree is shivering
as the night wind freshens up
sleepy birds disturbed
voicing a cheepy protest
ruffling their feathers.
the night, not at all silent
sings its lullaby for me.
regards
Eva
--
of course I have my own home page!
home.t-online.de/home/bekker
Karen Tellefsen
Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote in article
<8duu9u$ssm$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
Marek Lugowski
non sequitur, Karen. Kitsch is just as rich in detailing as tasteful
design or high art. In fact, the obsession with gaudy ornament is
the central fixture of kitsch. Excess is the hallmark of kitsch,
just as Hallmark is kitsch precisely by oozing excess. Compare to
classic Finnish design, or Etruscan pottery, or Hopi jewlery. All
the nonkitcshy things are elegant by keeping a measure of silence.
-- Marek
--
------------------- : http://www.enteract.com/~marek : ------------------
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Marek Lugowski
Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote:
>Hi! I'd like to know whether my poem is kitsch. Thank you for comments!
dunno... is sonds an endearment plural for sondheims? that would make
it sort of surrealist, which would instantly rescue it from kitsch by
aesthetical asylum in the absurd.
...But I can tell you that Sanne's picture is high art.
Congratulations to whoever posed it, took it, processed it. The
composition and the eye of the (not particularly Andalusian) dog -- it
almost looks like a goat's. It's all good. I like the tonal balance,
the textures. It is quite beautiful and subtle, leaving behind an
unsetling hint of something, possibly conjured by her imperfect skin
and the disciplined braids, against the perfect coat of hair -- both
the girl's and the dog's.
-- Marek
Karen Tellefsen
Marek Lugowski <ma...@enteract.com> wrote in article
<8duvs4$t8f$1...@news.enteract.com>...
> In article <01bfad2c$c2ead780$fa8c6bd8@kat>,
> Karen Tellefsen <k...@interactive.net> wrote:
> >I don't think it is, too many rich details.
>
> non sequitur, Karen. Kitsch is just as rich in detailing as tasteful
> design or high art. In fact, the obsession with gaudy ornament is
> the central fixture of kitsch. Excess is the hallmark of kitsch,
> just as Hallmark is kitsch precisely by oozing excess. Compare to
> classic Finnish design, or Etruscan pottery, or Hopi jewlery. All
> the nonkitcshy things are elegant by keeping a measure of silence.
>
> -- Marek
Hey, the Vatican's Etruscan collection was shown at the Morris Museum
of all places. Wonderful exhibit, I'm glad I got to see it.
Anyway, Etruscan art is full of rich details, unlike modern Finnish design,
or Shaker design or Arts and Crafts design. Medieval Celtic design is
full of rich details, and not kitsch. Even Gaudi's outrageous churchs
aren't kitsch. While gaudy ornamentation is common in Hallmark card
pictures and kitschy Victorian valentines, that icon of modern kitsch,
the yellow smiley face, is pure simplicity. Indeed, the sentimental verse
in typical American greeting cards oozes generic syrup with little detail,
one size fits all. The point of the above is while beautiful thing can be
very
simple, they aren't always. Some simple things are ugly.
The poem below could use some help, but it's a beginning.
>
> >Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote in article
> ><8duu9u$ssm$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
> >> Hi! I'd like to know whether my poem is kitsch. Thank you for
comments!
> >>
Marek Lugowski
Karen Tellefsen <k...@interactive.net> wrote:
>
>
>Marek Lugowski <ma...@enteract.com> wrote in article
><8duvs4$t8f$1...@news.enteract.com>...
>> In article <01bfad2c$c2ead780$fa8c6bd8@kat>,
>> Karen Tellefsen <k...@interactive.net> wrote:
>> >I don't think it is, too many rich details.
>>
>> non sequitur, Karen. Kitsch is just as rich in detailing as tasteful
>> design or high art. In fact, the obsession with gaudy ornament is
>> the central fixture of kitsch. Excess is the hallmark of kitsch,
>> just as Hallmark is kitsch precisely by oozing excess. Compare to
>> classic Finnish design, or Etruscan pottery, or Hopi jewlery. All
>> the nonkitcshy things are elegant by keeping a measure of silence.
>>
>> -- Marek
>
>Hey, the Vatican's Etruscan collection was shown at the Morris Museum
>of all places. Wonderful exhibit, I'm glad I got to see it.
>Anyway, Etruscan art is full of rich details, unlike modern Finnish design,
>or Shaker design or Arts and Crafts design.
So is Hopi pottery and thus jewlery, which takes up the same motifs.
But both exude sparseness and discipline and leitmotifs. There is
a certain severity in Etruscan art.
And I think you have indiscriminantly lumped overuse/triteness with
kitsch, which is a German/Yiddish invention of burgeoise tastes in
Europ in 19th century and on. So there is a definite bullseye of
art history there. The smiley face is NOT kitsch. It is an icon,
hackneyed. Just as the LOVE poster became such for a while a way back.
Whenever people wear a thing to a point of threadbareness it suffers,
but it does not turn into kitsch. Kitsch is more like the velvet Elvis,
it reflects a toomuchness born of never having had more than greed to
cultivate one's taste. And never being introduced to study of proportion
and to the discipline of, well, restraint.
>Medieval Celtic design is
>full of rich details, and not kitsch. Even Gaudi's outrageous churchs
>aren't kitsch. While gaudy ornamentation is common in Hallmark card
>pictures and kitschy Victorian valentines, that icon of modern kitsch,
>the yellow smiley face, is pure simplicity. Indeed, the sentimental verse
>in typical American greeting cards oozes generic syrup with little detail,
>one size fits all. The point of the above is while beautiful thing can be
>very
>simple, they aren't always. Some simple things are ugly.
I think you took p impllies q and ran with q implies p. Rich details
do not in anyway imply lack of balance or silence. Kitsch shouts
out loud in all the wrong places, it's ugly. A pleasing sense of
calm is absent in it. The smiley face, had you seen it once, would
have struck you as good design. In fact, it DOES belong in the MOMA
good design section, together with my tent (which is there). So
you are off on what kitsch is. Having rich detail does not rescue
something from kitsch.
-- Marek
And oozing sentimental syrup with little detail is just imbecility.
It is not tantamount to kitsch. Kitsch is opulent and excessive,
always. And it makes as much sense to talk about transcendant kitsch
as it makes sense of talking about sushi as a universal cooking technique
applicable across cultures. Which is to say, it does not translate.
Eva Bekker
> In article <8duu9u$ssm$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>,
> Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>>Hi! I'd like to know whether my poem is kitsch. Thank you for comments!
>
>dunno... is sonds an endearment plural for sondheims? that would make
>it sort of surrealist, which would instantly rescue it from kitsch by
>aesthetical asylum in the absurd.
>
>>sonds of night
^^^^^^ - - - oh, well!!! Seems I was a little excited when thinking
of posting my poem. Of course it should have been SOUNDS :-(
Probably I should better stick with my own language, then.
>>of course I have my own home page!
>>home.t-online.de/home/bekker
>
>...But I can tell you that Sanne's picture is high art.
>Congratulations to whoever posed it, took it, processed it. The
>composition and the eye of the (not particularly Andalusian) dog -- it
>almost looks like a goat's. It's all good. I like the tonal balance,
>the textures. It is quite beautiful and subtle, leaving behind an
>unsetling hint of something, possibly conjured by her imperfect skin
>and the disciplined braids, against the perfect coat of hair -- both
>the girl's and the dog's.
>
> -- Marek
Okay, thank you - I'm going to to tell my husband, he took the picture.
By the way, the dog's a border collie :-)
Eva Bekker
>The poem below could use some help, but it's a beginning.
>
Could you show me how to improve it?
Marek Lugowski
Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote:
>Marek Lugowski schrieb am 23 Apr 2000 14:23:11 GMT:
>
>> In article <8duu9u$ssm$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>,
>> Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi! I'd like to know whether my poem is kitsch. Thank you for comments!
>>
>>dunno... is sonds an endearment plural for sondheims? that would make
>>it sort of surrealist, which would instantly rescue it from kitsch by
>>aesthetical asylum in the absurd.
>>
>>>sonds of night
> ^^^^^^ - - - oh, well!!! Seems I was a little excited when thinking
>of posting my poem. Of course it should have been SOUNDS :-(
>Probably I should better stick with my own language, then.
>
>
>>Congratulations to whoever posed it, took it, processed it. The
>>composition and the eye of the (not particularly Andalusian) dog -- it
>>almost looks like a goat's. It's all good. I like the tonal balance,
>>the textures. It is quite beautiful and subtle, leaving behind an
>>unsetling hint of something, possibly conjured by her imperfect skin
>>and the disciplined braids, against the perfect coat of hair -- both
>>the girl's and the dog's.
>>
>> -- Marek
>
>Okay, thank you - I'm going to to tell my husband, he took the picture.
>By the way, the dog's a border collie :-)
I know that. I had one as a little boy, with a pedigree and all. Her
name was Lima (as in Peru). She was run over by a truck at front of me.
-- Marek
>regards
>Eva
>--
>of course I have my own home page!
>home.t-online.de/home/bekker
Marek Lugowski
...
>Probably I should better stick with my own language, then.
No, please. It is good of you to join us and to bring your
German/English to the table. I don't think we have anyone from lower
Saxony. As a Pole (and American, but that's besides the point here),
I especially welcome you, our shared kings and all. *grin*. Carry on,
please.
...
>>>home.t-online.de/home/bekker
>>
>>...But I can tell you that Sanne's picture is high art.
>>Congratulations to whoever posed it, took it, processed it. The
>>composition and the eye of the (not particularly Andalusian) dog -- it
>>almost looks like a goat's. It's all good. I like the tonal balance,
>>the textures. It is quite beautiful and subtle, leaving behind an
>>unsetling hint of something, possibly conjured by her imperfect skin
>>and the disciplined braids, against the perfect coat of hair -- both
>>the girl's and the dog's.
>>
>> -- Marek
>
>Okay, thank you - I'm going to to tell my husband, he took the picture.
>By the way, the dog's a border collie :-)
>
Marek Lugowski
Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote:
[to Karen, and I assume all readers:]
>>The poem below could use some help, but it's a beginning.
>>
>Could you show me how to improve it?
>
>regards
>Eva
ok, I'll play.
1. the language should be more than just a prosaic story broken up by
carriage returns -- every line should be caressed into economy and style,
and you should consider what is a good line length for your verses.
At present, it seems to be set arbitarily to 1/3 of 80 column display.
Why?
2. there is a lot of clumsiness and pure descriptive labor, with
little twinkles of charm here and there. Why not turn the tables and
make it huge gobs of charm and only little twinkles of clumsiness and
pure descriptive labor -- hint -- make it shorter, tighter.
3. keep the basic outline. it works for you. it's a modest poem that
is pleasant to rub against. But you can make it so much more excellent
in language. Here is a zen exercise I learned from Bill T. Jones, the
famous dancer and choreographer, last night. He had all of us at
the Schubert Theatre do this: 30 seconds of silence, and concentrate
on your tongue. Think of its up, down left, and right sides, and
concentrate on keeping the tongue in your mouth not touching any side
of your mouth.
Do that while silently reading every line of your poem. It will help.
-- Marek
Eva Bekker
Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>[to Karen, and I assume all readers:]
>>>The poem below could use some help, but it's a beginning.
>>>
>>Could you show me how to improve it?
>
>ok, I'll play.
>
>
>>sounds of night
>>**************
>1. the language should be more than just a prosaic story broken up by
>carriage returns -- every line should be caressed into economy and style,
>and you should consider what is a good line length for your verses.
>At present, it seems to be set arbitarily to 1/3 of 80 column display.
>Why?
I tried to write in the uta-format of 5/7/5/7..5/7/7 syllables. I chose
this form, because I thought some kind of limitation might be helpfull
for me. Maybe it's not, not quite sure about it.
>
>2. there is a lot of clumsiness and pure descriptive labor, with
>little twinkles of charm here and there. Why not turn the tables and
>make it huge gobs of charm and only little twinkles of clumsiness and
>pure descriptive labor -- hint -- make it shorter, tighter.
I can see your point. Again I think my clumsiness probably is a result
of a limited language-knowledge. I'm trying to improve, but I don't
write in German first and then translate it. While writing English I'm
thinking English. (I'm learning new words all the time, but definetly
the more "lyrical" terms are still missing)
>
>3. keep the basic outline. it works for you. it's a modest poem that
>is pleasant to rub against. But you can make it so much more excellent
>in language. Here is a zen exercise I learned from Bill T. Jones, the
>famous dancer and choreographer, last night. He had all of us at
>the Schubert Theatre do this: 30 seconds of silence, and concentrate
>on your tongue. Think of its up, down left, and right sides, and
>concentrate on keeping the tongue in your mouth not touching any side
>of your mouth.
>
>Do that while silently reading every line of your poem. It will help.
>
> -- Marek
Interesting idea!
Thanks a lot, I'm going to try and rewrite my soUnds of night.
>
regards
Arlon Staywell
Eva Bekker <Bek...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> >>Could you show me how to improve it?
> home.t-online.de/home/bekker
Regarding "sounds of night"
The distinction between frogs and toads is probably less well developed
in the vernacular than between turtles and tortoises. That frogs are more
orgiastic than toads might be more legend than science.
Whether rich detail disqualifies something as kitsch is an interesting
question. I was going to say that transparency disqualifies, but thought
better of it. I suppose there are circumstances where transparent art could
be kitsch. I just criticised Marek rather sharply on some other matters,
but might have to go along that rich detail does not necessarily disqualify
as kitsch, emphasis on "necessarily."
Don't forget my homepage.
Arlon Staywell
The Delicate Balance of Science, Poetry, Politics and Religion
http://home.att.net/~arlon.staywell