Complaint: dressing and undressing
Janet Puistonen
of their characters' ablutions and dress? I'm reading a book right now,
where in the space of ten pages I've heard about at least two showers, and
at least three sets of dressings and undressings.
The first time, the narrator felt compelled to tell me that he stood under
the shower "naked" after removing his shirt and jeans. Really? Doesn't
everyone leave their underwear, socks, and shoes on in the shower? Or are
you trying to tell me that you don't wear underpants? I've also noted that
during the various dressings and undressings, he somtimes mentions those
underpants and sometimes doesn't. Are we to think that he isn't wearing them
if he doesn't mention putting them on? Or is he trying to conceal the fact
that he showers in his underpants in lieu of doing laundry ? (I haven't
been so curious about a man's underpants since wondering if Reacher ever
changed his. BTW, I do know that this guy wears boxers. I look forward with
confidence for more details [striped elastic or plain?] to be vouchsafed to
me.) What about socks? We hear about shoes, but never socks. Since every
other detail of his attire--almost always jeans and "an oxford shirt"--is
evidently so vitally important to setting the mood and establishing some
as-yet-to-be-revealed plot point, why aren't we hearing about his socks??
--
Janet
Dear Artemesia! Poetry's a Snare:/Bedlam has many Mansions:have a care:/
Your Muse diverts you, makes the Reader sad:/ You think your self inspir'd;
He thinks you mad.
---
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MRFeathers
>other detail of his attire--almost always jeans and "an oxford shirt"--is
>evidently so vitally important to setting the mood and establishing some
>as-yet-to-be-revealed plot point, why aren't we hearing about his socks??
He's ashamed that they aren't Gold Toes.
Mary
Jeremy
"Janet Puistonen" <box...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jxKrc.3638$yc4....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
Jeremy
Jr@Ease
<box...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Does anyone else get annoyed by authors who insist upon relating the details
>of their characters' ablutions and dress? I'm reading a book right now,
>where in the space of ten pages I've heard about at least two showers, and
>at least three sets of dressings and undressings.
>
>The first time, the narrator felt compelled to tell me that he stood under
>the shower "naked" after removing his shirt and jeans. Really? Doesn't
>everyone leave their underwear, socks, and shoes on in the shower? Or are
>you trying to tell me that you don't wear underpants? I've also noted that
>during the various dressings and undressings, he somtimes mentions those
>underpants and sometimes doesn't. Are we to think that he isn't wearing them
>if he doesn't mention putting them on? Or is he trying to conceal the fact
>that he showers in his underpants in lieu of doing laundry ?
Is it the inconsistency that bothers you, or the voyeurism?
The former always bothers me, because it seems like something's not
right, if he doesn't take off everything he's (she's) wearing before
showering, or if it appears he's only half dressed.
The latter never bothers me. I like the realism. If the author puts me
right into the details of the bathroom, unless it's gratuitous, I can
continue with the flow of the story.
John P
Priscilla G.
> Does anyone else get annoyed by authors who insist upon relating the
details
> of their characters' ablutions and dress? I'm reading a book right now,
> where in the space of ten pages I've heard about at least two showers, and
> at least three sets of dressings and undressings.
This used to drive me nuts in early Jonathan Kellerman books, when Alex
Delaware would describe each new character, however minor, in excruciating
detail: height, weight, complexion, hair, facial features, jewelry, color
and label of clothes, etc.
> The first time, the narrator felt compelled to tell me that he stood under
> the shower "naked" after removing his shirt and jeans. Really? Doesn't
> everyone leave their underwear, socks, and shoes on in the shower? >
Maybe "naked" is supposed to make the character seem sexier?
Priscilla
Janet Puistonen
It's at least one of those things.
The inconsistency is very annoying, because it makes me start wondering
about whether he's wearing underwear or whatever and breaks the flow.
The other thing is not so much voyeurism, but that too much narrative weight
is being given to inconsequential actions. I wouldn't mind if he told me
about what he was wearing when it mattered--if he were dressing for a
specific event, for example--or even if it were contributing something to
the mood or setting. I like details much more than many fellow RAMmers. But
this is completely pointless, and irritating to boot. I can't stand the kind
of author who fills pages by detailing every mundane waking moment of the
protagonist. Ironically, really vivid, interesting description of the
physical world around the character is absent. It's as if his focus on self
is so intense that he doesn't notice anything else. It would be nice if that
were the author's point, but so far I don't think so. I think the author is
simply limited and the character reflects that.
Carol Schwaderer Dickinson
>
> Does anyone else get annoyed by authors who insist upon relating the details
> of their characters' ablutions and dress?
Well, since mostly I read cozies I don't see that, but assuming you are
saying there's a lot of unnecessary padding you don't feel adds to plot
character development or whatever I feel the same way about the way some
authors have their characters mindlessly snacking, consuming coffee,
booze etc. apparantly just to fill time before they drop another clue.
There are several writers I don't bother to read anymore because of
that.
Carol
Carol Schwaderer Dickinson
> about what he was wearing when it mattered--if he were dressing for a
> specific event, for example--or even if it were contributing something to
> the mood or setting.
Ironically, really vivid, interesting description of the
> physical world around the character is absent. It's as if his focus on self
> is so intense that he doesn't notice anything else.
I think the author is
> simply limited and the character reflects that.
>
I think the author is male. As I've mentioned many times, I find this
style of writing is almost exclusive to male gender writers. Which is
why I read so few male writers.
Carol
off the soapbox
Paul A Sand
> I think the author is male. As I've mentioned many times, I find this
> style of writing is almost exclusive to male gender writers. Which is
> why I read so few male writers.
As a point of contrast: the author that popped into my head when I read
the original post was Sue Grafton. She, imho, is the Queen of Pointless
Description. What Kinsey wears, what Kinsey eats, where Kinsey jogs,
when Kinsey pays her bills, how Kinsey cuts her hair (nail scissors),
whether Kinsey makes her bed or not, etc.
Let me pick a random title here... OK, _L is for Lawless_, paperback
edition. Open to a random page, skip around a bit, and (from page 192),
Kinsey at the Dallas airport:
In the meantime, I had close to four hours to kill. From what I
gathered, the flight crews made two daily loops from Dallas to Santa
Teresa, in and out of the same gate, seven days a week. All I had to
do was to find a way to occupy my time and then present myself back
here before the boarding process began again. With luck, I'd get a
seat and be homeward bound. Without luck, I'd be stuck in Dallas
until two o'clock Monday afternoon.
I walked a mile in the terminal corridor, just to stretch my legs. I
took advantage of the ladies' room, where I was very ladylike. As I
emerged and turned right, I passed the airport equivalent of an
outdoor cafe, tables separated from the terminal corridor by a low
wrought-iron fence and fake plants. The small bar offered the usual
wines, beers, and exotic mixed drinks while, under glass, assorted
fresh seafoods were packed on a mound of crushed ice. I hadn't eaten
lunch, so I ordered a beer and a plate of fresh shrimp, which came
with cocktail sauce, oyster crackers, and lemon wedges. I peeled and
sauced my shrimp, doing a little people watching to amuse myself
while I ate. When I finished, I wandered back to the gate.
Aieee! Just. Shut. Up. The only thing worse would have been if I had
read this while waiting in an airport myself. Probably would have made
me suicidal.
To be fair:
(1) I read a lot more male writers than female, so Sue Grafton may be
an exception to the rule Carol is putting forth.
(2) Something interesting *does* happen on the very next page of _L is
for Lawless_.
(3) The crack about the nail scissors above is slightly uncalled for. In
_M is for Malice_, Kinsey goes to a salon for a $35 haircut (plus tip,
she points out) before meeting with one of her well-off relatives. If
we hadn't previously been set up with years and years of nail-scissors
haircuts, we might have missed this clue indicating Kinsey's insecurity
with respect to her family. (Unfortunately, we're denied the pleasure
of picking up on this subtle detail on our own, because Kinsey yammers
on about it herself. Oh well.)
(4) Despite all this, I am still a Sue Grafton fan.
--
-- Paul A. Sand | If a lot of things are starting to look like
-- University of New Hampshire | nails, maybe you're a carpenter.
-- p...@unh.edu | (Larry Wall, comp.lang.perl)
-- http://pubpages.unh.edu/~pas |
MJMC
"Paul A Sand" <p...@okoboji.unh.edu> wrote in message
news:slrncb14c...@okoboji.unh.edu...
> In article <40B064...@alaska.net>, Carol Schwaderer Dickinson wrote:
> > I think the author is male. As I've mentioned many times, I find this
> > style of writing is almost exclusive to male gender writers. Which is
> > why I read so few male writers.
>
> As a point of contrast: the author that popped into my head when I read
> the original post was Sue Grafton. She, imho, is the Queen of Pointless
> Description. What Kinsey wears, what Kinsey eats, where Kinsey jogs,
> when Kinsey pays her bills, how Kinsey cuts her hair (nail scissors),
> whether Kinsey makes her bed or not, etc.
Funny, I was thinking how Grafton often skips stuff. She DOESN'T describe
every move Kinsey makes during the day--sometimes there's just a brief
reference to several days going by.
That's not to say she doesn't describe other things in detail, but I always
liked it that the reader wasn't treated like a 24/7 camera crew following
her around.
Melissa
Thelma Lubkin
: "Paul A Sand" <p...@okoboji.unh.edu> wrote in message
: news:slrncb14c...@okoboji.unh.edu...
:> As a point of contrast: the author that popped into my head when I read
:> the original post was Sue Grafton. She, imho, is the Queen of Pointless
:> Description. What Kinsey wears, what Kinsey eats, where Kinsey jogs,
:> when Kinsey pays her bills, how Kinsey cuts her hair (nail scissors),
:> whether Kinsey makes her bed or not, etc.
: Funny, I was thinking how Grafton often skips stuff. She DOESN'T describe
: every move Kinsey makes during the day--sometimes there's just a brief
: reference to several days going by.
: Melissa
For me, these stories seem to be more about Kinsey *getting* to
places than about her doing anything *at* a place. It's as if the
events when she's not in determined motion are the connectors and the
real focus of the action is Kinsey driving, Kinsey jogging, Kinsey
flying somewhere
--thelma
maryaskew
> Does anyone else get annoyed by authors who insist upon relating the details
> of their characters' ablutions and dress?
>
There are a very few authors who can use daily habits to build a
male character. When they do it well, it's a pleasure....
Jane Haddam and Robert B. Parker do it very well: I have a clear
image in my head of Gregor being clean, rumpled and not giving a hoot
what pattern decorates his ties while Hawke is tailored by the gods.
But, I hate the endless "I put the key in the ignition
of the '74 Mustang and gave it some gas; turned left on Main St...."
Is there a car out there which doesn't require putting the key in the
ignition? Do we need the driving directions?
cheers,
Mary
Paul A Sand
>
> "Paul A Sand" <p...@okoboji.unh.edu> wrote in message
> news:slrncb14c...@okoboji.unh.edu...
>>
>> the original post was Sue Grafton. She, imho, is the Queen of Pointless
>> Description. What Kinsey wears, what Kinsey eats, where Kinsey jogs,
>> when Kinsey pays her bills, how Kinsey cuts her hair (nail scissors),
>> whether Kinsey makes her bed or not, etc.
>
> Funny, I was thinking how Grafton often skips stuff. She DOESN'T describe
> every move Kinsey makes during the day--sometimes there's just a brief
> reference to several days going by.
>
> That's not to say she doesn't describe other things in detail, but I always
> liked it that the reader wasn't treated like a 24/7 camera crew following
> her around.
I can't recall her skipping days, but I'll defer to your memory.
My ranting is solely about the ones she does describe:
I got in my car and started the engine, shifting into first. I eased
down the long drive toward the street beyond. At the front gate,
I paused, shifting into neutral and letting the car idle while
considered the possibilities. [...] I put the VW in first gear,
hung a left and drove over to the Department of Motor Vehicles.
It was just shy of closing time and the place was clearing out.
I filled out a form, asking for a records search. [...]
[_M is for Malice_, chapter 3].
I like that she saw fit to mention that she found a street at the end
of the driveway, as if that were somehow remarkable.
There may be people who enjoy this kind of thing. I would imagine that
they're frustrated by the lack of *consistent* detail. Did she stay in
first the *entire* way to the DMV? Were other turns involved, or just
that first left? At the DMV, did she remember to turn *off* the engine
that she described starting? And there's no mention whatsoever of the
parking brake! WHAT ABOUT THE PARKING BRAKE, KINSEY?
It would be pointful if she slammed the poor VW's shifter into first
and popped the clutch because she was angry; or if she nearly gets
hit while making the left because she's lost in thought or frazzled. Or
(barring that) she could make a try at Chandleresque colorful description
which might still be pointless but maybe entertaining nevertheless.
("I pointed the VW toward the DMV; it responded like a horse one race
away from the glue factory." Er, no, sorry, that sucks, but I am not a
Professional Writer.)
As is, though, Sue just puts too many words on the wrong side of the
signal-to-noise ratio. And (to repeat), I speak as a loyal reader.
Chris
wrote:
>On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:57:08 +0000 (UTC), Paul A Sand
><p...@okoboji.unh.edu> wrote:
>
>>(4) Despite all this, I am still a Sue Grafton fan.
>
>Me too. However George Pelecanos totally destroyed any chance of
>having me as a fan with his addiction to alcoholic minutiae in his
>Nick Stefanos novels. Too much more than I ever wanted to know about
>opening bottles.
>
>Mique
Have only read THE BIG BLOWDOWN in the Nick Stefanos series. I think
Pelecanos is an excellent writer, but the book is very dark and gritty
and left me depressed. Have the other books in the series but haven't
read them yet. Really like his Derek Strange series, though...
Chris
Mark Alan Miller
"Chris" <chrisd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ruf1b0hdn2eovc9m7...@4ax.com...
I'm not even convinced by the Derek Strange books. Strange seems too much a
designed character, with all of his tastes, manners, lifestyle chosen to
make specific points. I like my characters less predictable, with a sense
of humor. Still, Pelecanos does write fine prose and one of these days will
write a book about something I'm interested in. The predictable
difficulties of being male, black, and poor don't do it for me.
Mark Alan Miller
Janet Puistonen
Yup--it's a guy. You might be onto something, Carol.
Linda Fairstein also has the colorless world thing, but I don't recall her
dwelling on the dressing and undressing thing.
This author also is obsessed with what people are drinking and how they are
drinking it, although actual food seems to matter little. I'm now totally
annoyed by the fact that everyone SIPS their drinks. Do these people ever
just DRINK anything, --or, heaven forbid-- GULP it?
Janet Puistonen
> In article <40B064...@alaska.net>, Carol Schwaderer Dickinson
> wrote:
>> I think the author is male. As I've mentioned many times, I find this
>> style of writing is almost exclusive to male gender writers. Which
>> is why I read so few male writers.
>
> As a point of contrast: the author that popped into my head when I
> read the original post was Sue Grafton.
Which may be why I read one of her books and vowed never to do it again. She
bores me to tears.
Janet Puistonen
> On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:57:08 +0000 (UTC), Paul A Sand
> <p...@okoboji.unh.edu> wrote:
>
>
> having me as a fan with his addiction to alcoholic minutiae in his
> Nick Stefanos novels. Too much more than I ever wanted to know about
> opening bottles.
>
> Mique
Although I remain a Pelecanos fan, I know what you mean. Also, if I ever
hear about one of his characters lighting a cigarette again--firing a
smoke?--it will be too soon.
cjconrad
> "Janet Puistonen" <box...@verizon.net> wrote
>
> > Does anyone else get annoyed by authors who insist upon relating the
> details
> > of their characters' ablutions and dress? I'm reading a book right now,
> > where in the space of ten pages I've heard about at least two showers, and
> > at least three sets of dressings and undressings.
This is the flip side of narration in which nobody eats, drinks or
goes to the bathroom, any such mundane activity, even on a 3-day road
trip or 24 hour stake-out. No details at all is just as bad. cjc
Carol Schwaderer Dickinson
>
> In article <40B064...@alaska.net>, Carol Schwaderer Dickinson wrote:
> > I think the author is male. As I've mentioned many times, I find this
> > style of writing is almost exclusive to male gender writers. Which is
> > why I read so few male writers.
>
> As a point of contrast: the author that popped into my head when I read
> the original post was Sue Grafton. She, imho, is the Queen of Pointless
> Description.
I can't argue with that. I read just one of hers. And it was a struggle
to keep going.
Carol
Cece
Gregor's tie is always decorated with fringe! At the sides.
I haven't tried Parker. Grafton -- three pages of the first book.
Cece
Randy Money
Ha! Yes.
I get tired of things like, "A thought crossed my mind." Don't tell me
what it crossed unless it's something other than your mind. Similarly,
"...I said, but in my mind I thought ..." Well, who else's mind would
you think with, hmmmm?
Randy M.
C.W. Cale
> Does anyone else get annoyed by authors who insist upon relating the details
> of their characters' ablutions and dress? I'm reading a book right now,
> where in the space of ten pages I've heard about at least two showers, and
> at least three sets of dressings and undressings.
>
> The first time, the narrator felt compelled to tell me that he stood under
> the shower "naked" after removing his shirt and jeans. Really? Doesn't
> everyone leave their underwear, socks, and shoes on in the shower? Or are
> you trying to tell me that you don't wear underpants? I've also noted that
> during the various dressings and undressings, he somtimes mentions those
> underpants and sometimes doesn't. Are we to think that he isn't wearing them
> if he doesn't mention putting them on? Or is he trying to conceal the fact
> that he showers in his underpants in lieu of doing laundry ? (I haven't
> been so curious about a man's underpants since wondering if Reacher ever
> changed his. BTW, I do know that this guy wears boxers. I look forward with
> confidence for more details [striped elastic or plain?] to be vouchsafed to
> me.) What about socks? We hear about shoes, but never socks. Since every
> other detail of his attire--almost always jeans and "an oxford shirt"--is
> evidently so vitally important to setting the mood and establishing some
> as-yet-to-be-revealed plot point, why aren't we hearing about his socks??
>
> --
> Janet
Oh boy are you gonna love my prologue!
(see link below)
-- C.W.
-- http://cwcale.com/Charlieindex.html
"Adopt a stray animal, enrich two lives!"