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Another Sherlock Holmes / Hercule Poirot / Nero Wolfe please

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Fire Tiger

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Nov 13, 2009, 12:44:34 PM11/13/09
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I have finally read the last Nero Wolfe story (Death Times Three) and
am looking for another genius detective series told from the
perspective of his (or her) sidekick. I've read all the Sherlock
Holmes and Hercule Poirot series as well. Suggestions MUCH
appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

Scott Jensen

Francis A. Miniter

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Nov 13, 2009, 2:05:38 PM11/13/09
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Dorothy Sayer's Lord Peter Wimsey is the only other really
genius detective I can think of at the moment. These days
genius's are in disfavor; emotionally involved, very human
detectives who make mistakes are more common.

--
Francis A. Miniter

Oscuramente
libros, laminas, llaves
siguen mi suerte.

Jorge Luis Borges, La Cifra Haiku, 6

jimbairn

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Nov 13, 2009, 2:14:26 PM11/13/09
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Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> Fire Tiger wrote:
>> I have finally read the last Nero Wolfe story (Death Times Three) and
>> am looking for another genius detective series told from the
>> perspective of his (or her) sidekick. I've read all the Sherlock
>> Holmes and Hercule Poirot series as well. Suggestions MUCH
>> appreciated!
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Scott Jensen
>
>
> Dorothy Sayer's Lord Peter Wimsey is the only other really genius
> detective I can think of at the moment. These days genius's are in
> disfavor; emotionally involved, very human detectives who make mistakes
> are more common.
>

Ellery Queen

JimB

Annie C

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Nov 13, 2009, 4:35:35 PM11/13/09
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"jimbairn" <j...@jimbarker.net> wrote in message
news:meiLm.4759$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...

S.S. Van Dine's series detective, Philo Vance

Annie


I.E.Z.

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Nov 13, 2009, 4:44:30 PM11/13/09
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"Annie C" <anni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7m61p5F...@mid.individual.net...


Margery Allingham. Dorothy Sayers's Lord Peter was good, but I always liked
Allingham's Mr. Campion better.

Iris


Dave in Toronto

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Nov 13, 2009, 5:19:02 PM11/13/09
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On Nov 13, 4:44 pm, "I.E.Z." <iezaw...@ptdz.net> wrote:
> "Annie C" <annie_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Iris- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I believe the original request was for stories told from the POV of a
side-kick. I don't think any of the suggestions so far fit that
criterion. Am I wrong?

Dave in Toronto

Annie C

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Nov 13, 2009, 5:29:32 PM11/13/09
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"Dave in Toronto" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:9dcc9b95-766e-463c...@1g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...

Dave in Toronto
_______

The Philo Vance novels (that I read a long, long time ago) were chronicled
by PV's friend Van Dine (who appears as a kind of Dr. Watson figure in the
books as well as the author.)

Annie

Annie


Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 13, 2009, 7:10:33 PM11/13/09
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In article <77d4eaac-6ef7-45ab...@g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

Fire Tiger <recreati...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I have finally read the last Nero Wolfe story (Death Times Three) and
>am looking for another genius detective series told from the
>perspective of his (or her) sidekick. I've read all the Sherlock
>Holmes and Hercule Poirot series as well. Suggestions MUCH
>appreciated!

Well, there are Holmes pastisches, some good some not so good.

If you're willing to read science-fictional and/or fantasy
mysteries, you might look up the Lord Darcy series by Randall
Garrett.

It's one novel, _Too Many Magicians_, and a lot of short stories,
collected in _Murder and Magic_ and _Lord Darcy Investigates_.
These are out of print, but amazon.com or other dealers ought to
be able to find you copies.

It's set in an alternative universe in two ways different from
ours: (a) Richard I didn't die at Chaluz, but survived to become
a wise and just king, so the Plantagenet line is still ruling
England and France; (b) the laws of magic were discovered in the
twelfth century, and as a result technology has lagged behind.
The stories are set in the mid-twentieth century, but the
technology has gotten about as far as steam locomotives.

The reason I suggest this is that the detective, Lord Darcy, is
as near to Sherlock Holmes as makes no difference; and his cousin
the Marquis de London is very like Mycroft Holmes and even more
like Nero Wolfe.

They're good stories. You might like them.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.

ConnieM

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Nov 13, 2009, 7:50:06 PM11/13/09
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You might want to try Linda L. Richards' "Death Was the Other Woman"
and "Death Was in the Picture." They are written recently (2008 for
"in the Picture") but are set in Los Angeles in the early Depression.
They are told from the point of view of the secretary of the alcoholic
private eye, have a sense of humor, and I enjoyed them both. Richards,
by the way, is/was the editor of January magazine. ConnieM

Wes Struebing

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Nov 13, 2009, 8:46:31 PM11/13/09
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On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:35:35 -0600, "Annie C" <anni...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Harry Kemelman's Rabbi David Small.
--

Wes Struebing
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Homepage: www.carpedementem.org
linkedin profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/wesstruebing

Dave in Toronto

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Nov 13, 2009, 9:35:14 PM11/13/09
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On Nov 13, 8:46 pm, Wes Struebing <str...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:35:35 -0600, "Annie C" <annie_...@yahoo.com>

> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"jimbairn" <j...@jimbarker.net> wrote in message
> >news:meiLm.4759$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> >> Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> >>> Fire Tiger wrote:
> >>>> I have finally read the last Nero Wolfe story (Death Times Three) and
> >>>> am looking for another genius detective series told from the
> >>>> perspective of his (or her) sidekick.  I've read all the Sherlock
> >>>> Holmes and Hercule Poirot series as well.  Suggestions MUCH
> >>>> appreciated!
>
> >>>> Thanks in advance!
>
> >>>> Scott Jensen
>
> >>> Dorothy Sayer's Lord Peter Wimsey is the only other really genius
> >>> detective I can think of at the moment.  These days genius's are in
> >>> disfavor; emotionally involved, very human detectives who make mistakes
> >>> are more common.
>
> >> Ellery Queen
>
> >> JimB
>
> >S.S. Van Dine's series detective, Philo Vance
>
> Harry Kemelman's Rabbi David Small.
> --  
>
> Wes Struebing

> - Show quoted text -


Lillian de le Torre's _Dr Sam Johnson: Detector _ series narrated by
hs side-kick Boswell.

Dave in Toronto

Stanley Moore

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Nov 13, 2009, 9:37:53 PM11/13/09
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"Dave in Toronto" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:c021242c-fc69-4796...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

Dave in Toronto
----------------------------------------------------

Isn't there a historical serices about a blind magistrate in London whose
young assistant narrates? Sir john Felder or something? Take care
--
Stanley L. Moore
"The belief in a supernatural
source of evil is not necessary;
men alone are quite capable
of every wickedness."
Joseph Conrad

Stanley Moore

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Nov 13, 2009, 9:33:35 PM11/13/09
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"Francis A. Miniter" <fami...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hdkanc$5s5$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

> Fire Tiger wrote:
>> I have finally read the last Nero Wolfe story (Death Times Three) and
>> am looking for another genius detective series told from the
>> perspective of his (or her) sidekick. I've read all the Sherlock
>> Holmes and Hercule Poirot series as well. Suggestions MUCH
>> appreciated!
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Scott Jensen
>
>
> Dorothy Sayer's Lord Peter Wimsey is the only other really genius
> detective I can think of at the moment. These days genius's are in
> disfavor; emotionally involved, very human detectives who make mistakes
> are more common.
>
> --

Isn't Gideon Fell a genius? It's been so lomng since I read on I do not
recall the POV of the narrator. Ellery Queen and Philo Vance are geniuses
but all these are old school. As you point out the lone genius is sadly out
of style in these degenerate times. Take care


--
Stanley L. Moore
"The belief in a supernatural
source of evil is not necessary;
men alone are quite capable
of every wickedness."
Joseph Conrad

.


Francis A. Miniter

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Nov 13, 2009, 10:14:44 PM11/13/09
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Never heard of it. Sounds interesting.

Francis A. Miniter

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Nov 13, 2009, 10:16:29 PM11/13/09
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John Fielding, and he was the brother of Henry Fielding, the
author, and he was a blind magistrate. I did hear about
this a few years ago. I can't recall if it was one book or
a series.

J

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Nov 13, 2009, 10:38:24 PM11/13/09
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On Nov 13, 12:44�pm, Fire Tiger <recreationalpo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have finally read the last Nero Wolfe story (Death Times Three) and
> am looking for another genius detective series told from the
> perspective of his (or her) sidekick. �I've read all the Sherlock
> Holmes and Hercule Poirot series as well. �Suggestions MUCH
> appreciated!


There are two books by Melodie Johnson Howe that you might like: THE
MOTHER SHADOW and BEAUTY DIES. They are similar to the Wolfe-Archie
stories, but the genius detective and her sidekick are both women.

Will Thomas's Victorian-era series about private enquiry agent Cyrus
Barker is told by his young associate; the first is SOME DANGER
INVOLVED.

Hugh Pentecost's stories about Pierre Chambrun, the resident manager
of the fabulous Hotel Beaumont, are first-oerson accounts by one of
the staff.

The books about Sir John Fielding are by Bruce Alexander.

Dan Goodman

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Nov 13, 2009, 11:51:17 PM11/13/09
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Fire Tiger wrote:

George Turner, Brain Child. Science fiction; the detective is very
much a genius, but less so than the bad guys.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal at:
dsgood.livejournal.com
dsgood.dreamwidth.org
dsgood.insanejournal.com

Dave in Toronto

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Nov 14, 2009, 2:33:35 AM11/14/09
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Marga

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Nov 14, 2009, 6:52:38 AM11/14/09
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"Fire Tiger" <recreati...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:77d4eaac-6ef7-45ab...@g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

I've thoroughly enjoyed the Irene Adler series by Carole Nelson Douglas
which are narrated by Penelope Huxleigh. As Ms. Adler outsmarted Sherlock
Holmes, she should qualify as "another genius detective".
marga


Rik Shepherd

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Nov 14, 2009, 7:35:44 AM11/14/09
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Fire Tiger wrote

>I have finally read the last Nero Wolfe story (Death Times Three) and
> am looking for another genius detective series told from the
> perspective of his (or her) sidekick. I've read all the Sherlock
> Holmes and Hercule Poirot series as well. Suggestions MUCH
> appreciated!

Try R. Austin Freeman's Dr Thorndyke short stories, all of which are written
by Thorndyke's not-quite-as-smart assistant Jervis (who isn't always his
assistant but seems to co-incidentally be on holiday or locumming in the
vicinity of a mysterious death). They were written in the 1910s & 20s, and
apparently reflect the peak of forensic science at the time. Generally, the
later the story was written the more competent Jervis is.

There are novels as well, but the ones I've read suffered from either (a)
Jervis having a love interest and Thorndyke refusing to speak to him or (b)
being a lack-lustre adventure story with a forensic detective story glued to
the back.

One collection, The Singing Bone (1913, I think), marks the invention of the
reverse-detection story - you've seen the crime being committed, how is the
detective going to prove it - which later inspired Colombo.

There's a whole bunch of R.A. Freeman books at www.manybooks.net for
cost-free Thorndykery.


I.E.Z.

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Nov 14, 2009, 11:55:29 AM11/14/09
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"Rik Shepherd" <RikSh...@houseoftheSCAMPERINGorangemonkey.co.uk> wrote in
message news:4afea41b$1...@news.bnb-lp.com...


I whole-heartedly agree with this review, including the fact that the short
stories are far superior to the novels. Rik is right on the money in
describing the novels as "adventure story with a forensic detective story
glued to the back." The only novel-length one I enjoyed was the one that
gave the back-story on Polton. (Thorndyke's photographer and lab assistant,
he of the "crinkly smile.") I can't remember the name of it right now, but
I also get my Thorndyke fix at manybooks.

Iris


Francis A. Miniter

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Nov 14, 2009, 1:26:59 PM11/14/09
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Thank you. Now to find some of here work.

jimbairn

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Nov 14, 2009, 1:34:58 PM11/14/09
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Anyone suggested August Derleth's SOLAR PONS series?

JimB

Stanley Moore

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Nov 14, 2009, 2:48:20 PM11/14/09
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"jimbairn" <j...@jimbarker.net> wrote in message
news:mLCLm.5113$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...

> Anyone suggested August Derleth's SOLAR PONS series?
>
> JimB

Interesting isn't it? All the suggestions are of old school mysteries. There
are no modern examples of the genius detective and the dumb sidekick. Take

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 14, 2009, 3:36:47 PM11/14/09
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In article <0dmdndj1WegWlGLX...@giganews.com>,

Stanley Moore <smoo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"jimbairn" <j...@jimbarker.net> wrote in message
>news:mLCLm.5113$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> Anyone suggested August Derleth's SOLAR PONS series?
>
>Interesting isn't it? All the suggestions are of old school mysteries. There
>are no modern examples of the genius detective and the dumb sidekick.

Welllll? Some of you out there write mysteries as well as
reading them, I am certain! Get writing!

JF

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Nov 14, 2009, 4:15:33 PM11/14/09
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Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> Welllll? Some of you out there write mysteries as well as
> reading them, I am certain! Get writing!

Well, I'm trying to flog something with a larger than life
villain, with DLS and Allingham as clues. The research was fun --
I found Sayer's house and statue and Margery Allingham's grave,
also drove through the original Pontisbright.

Can't sell it though.

JF

Joan in GB-W

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Nov 14, 2009, 4:33:52 PM11/14/09
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"JF" <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BpKdnQ4Cc5eRg2LX...@brightview.co.uk...

Keep trying.

Joan

Message has been deleted

Fire Tiger

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Nov 14, 2009, 7:28:11 PM11/14/09
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On Nov 13, 2:19 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> I believe the original request was for stories told from the POV of a
> side-kick.  I don't think any of the suggestions so far fit that
> criterion.  Am I wrong?

You're right, Dave.

Scott

Stanley Moore

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Nov 14, 2009, 7:52:37 PM11/14/09
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"Mike Burke" <mbu...@pcug.org.au> wrote in message
news:v1euf550cb9marbj0...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:48:20 -0600, "Stanley Moore"
> <smoo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Interesting isn't it? All the suggestions are of old school mysteries.
>>There
>>are no modern examples of the genius detective and the dumb sidekick. Take
>>care
>
> Yep, there sure are. The best known is probably Patsy's Marino and
> his dumb side-kick Scarpetta.
>
> Mique

Marino is a genius? <G> Take care

Stanley Moore

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Nov 14, 2009, 7:51:08 PM11/14/09
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"JF" <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BpKdnQ4Cc5eRg2LX...@brightview.co.uk...

There is a real Pontisbright? I liked The Gyrth Challice. That was the one I
think where the detective falls asleep on the meadow in moonlight and falls
in love as a result. Take care

JF

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Nov 14, 2009, 8:49:21 PM11/14/09
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Stanley Moore wrote:

> There is a real Pontisbright?

I'm trying to remember which village it is. Along the 1124 from
Colchester, or somewhere near there. Now I'll have to find my
notes...


I liked The Gyrth Challice. That was the one I
> think where the detective falls asleep on the meadow in moonlight and falls
> in love as a result. Take care

Take care indeed. Falling asleep in the moonlight means I'm now
researching Cervantes, Virginia Woolf, the megalithic temples of
Malta... etc etc. No detectives, though.

J

Fire Tiger

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Nov 14, 2009, 9:22:57 PM11/14/09
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On Nov 14, 11:48 am, "Stanley Moore" <smoor...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Interesting isn't it? All the suggestions are of old school mysteries. There
> are no modern examples of the genius detective and the dumb sidekick.
> Take care

First, thanks to everyone for all the suggestions. I will be doing
through them and finding the ones that click with me. I have
bookmarked this thread for later reference as I work my way through
them.

Secondly, in the process of researching your suggestions, I came
across "Detective Duos" by Marcia Muller and Bill Pronzini. It looks
like a good place to start so I'll read it first.

Again, thanks for all the suggestions. If you have more, I'd love to
hear them.

And if anyone knows (or has a pretty good guess), why have the genius
detectives and less-than-genius sidekicks (who double as chroniclers)
fallen out of favor?

Scott Jensen

P.S. I wouldn't classify Archie Goodwin as a "dumb" sidekick.

erilar

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Nov 14, 2009, 10:34:45 PM11/14/09
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In article <hdm5ml$qsv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
"Marga" <mcha...@swbell.net> wrote:

> I've thoroughly enjoyed the Irene Adler series by Carole Nelson Douglas
> which are narrated by Penelope Huxleigh. As Ms. Adler outsmarted Sherlock
> Holmes, she should qualify as "another genius detective".

I love them madly and wish she'd write more instead of the cat mysteries.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist


http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 14, 2009, 10:51:16 PM11/14/09
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In article <Vqmdne1qSonhzGLX...@giganews.com>,

Stanley Moore <smoo...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"JF" <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:BpKdnQ4Cc5eRg2LX...@brightview.co.uk...
>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> Welllll? Some of you out there write mysteries as well as
>>> reading them, I am certain! Get writing!
>>
>> Well, I'm trying to flog something with a larger than life villain, with
>> DLS and Allingham as clues. The research was fun --
>> I found Sayer's house and statue and Margery Allingham's grave, also drove
>> through the original Pontisbright.
>>
>> Can't sell it though.
>>
>> JF
>
>There is a real Pontisbright? I liked The Gyrth Challice. That was the one I
>think where the detective falls asleep on the meadow in moonlight and falls
>in love as a result.

No... that was the one where the noble young man who serves as
junior sidekick is abducted, knocked out, (rescued by Campion
only he doesn't know it because he's not aware) and deposited in
a meadow near his home.

Pontisbright (pron. Pontisbree) is in Sussex, I believe, like a
number of Allingham's settings.

Stanley Moore

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Nov 14, 2009, 11:35:59 PM11/14/09
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"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:Kt4tD...@kithrup.com...
OK thanks for the correction. Is this the one where the young heir is
identified by the fact that the garnets disappear in his hair when he whears
the crown and the pegeon egg pearls show up? Ot's been so long since I read
them Take care

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 15, 2009, 12:50:03 AM11/15/09
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In article <9LednfP2hdTPGGLX...@giganews.com>,
>identified by the fact that the garnets disappear in his hair when he wears
>the crown and the pegeon egg pearls show up? It's been so long since I read
>them

That's the one. "And when a Pontisbright shall wear it, you
shall not see it but by the stars." I think the stars were
opals, not pearls, but you have the right idea.

JF

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Nov 15, 2009, 3:53:40 AM11/15/09
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Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>> OK thanks for the correction. Is this the one where the young heir is
>> identified by the fact that the garnets disappear in his hair when he wears
>> the crown and the pegeon egg pearls show up? It's been so long since I read
>> them
>
> That's the one. "And when a Pontisbright shall wear it, you
> shall not see it but by the stars." I think the stars were
> opals, not pearls, but you have the right idea.

Try that on an agent now and you'd be told that even the reddest
hair looks nothing like a garnet -- oh, for the willing
suspension of disbelief.
Odd how old-fashioned, cosy detective fiction still sells. My
theory is that people in troubled times look for reassurance: I
cite Superman, Wimsey, Campion etc.

Suffolk, Dorothy, or the Essex/Suffolk border, not Sussex, is
Allingham country. She's buried in Tolleshunt D'Arcy. Sussex is
Kipling and Puck.

JF

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 15, 2009, 10:09:20 AM11/15/09
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In article <Q8SdnUHAV_UzXGLX...@brightview.co.uk>,

Thanks for the correction. I've never been either place.

ell...@webtv.net

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Nov 15, 2009, 2:20:50 PM11/15/09
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Ellery Queen

Great suggestion, Cartoon Boy! Of all of them, he's my
favorite--actually, my one and only. There are a couple on tv, but
they're not so much geniuses as know-ir-alls. Vincent D'Onofrio's
character on L&O, CI, is hilarious. He knows at least something about
absolutely everything from Egyptian burial practices to the properties
of explosives. Reed on NCIS, is a much cuter know-all. He was a
prodigy and has an eidetic memory.

In books I can't think of anyone else. But there must be. Miss Marple
sort of tempts me, but she's much more intuitive than brilliant.

Ellen

ell...@webtv.net

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Nov 15, 2009, 2:34:10 PM11/15/09
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<<I believe the original request was for stories told from the POV of a
side-kick. I don't think any of the suggestions so far fit that
criterion. Am I wrong?
Dave in Toronto>>

Oops.

Ellen

Stanley Moore

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Nov 14, 2009, 11:37:51 PM11/14/09
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"Fire Tiger" <recreati...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:10ce92bb-518e-458d...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

Scott Jensen

**********************************


--
Stanley L. Moore
"The belief in a supernatural
source of evil is not necessary;
men alone are quite capable
of every wickedness."
Joseph Conrad

No, but Archie is often kept in the dark by Wolfe so he stay ignorangnt of
the bad guy to the last. Take care


Pogonip

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Nov 15, 2009, 3:40:55 PM11/15/09
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Reed? Spencer Reed? On Criminal Minds?
--
Joanne
stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us.earth.milky-way.com
http://members.tripod.com/~bernardschopen/

Stanley Moore

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Nov 15, 2009, 4:17:33 PM11/15/09
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"JF" <jul...@oopsoopsfloodsclimbers.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Q8SdnUHAV_UzXGLX...@brightview.co.uk...

I dunno. I have seen garnets which are very dark red and would match a deep
red-brown or auburn hair. But you have to give a little licence to the
writer in these cases. Take care

erilar

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Nov 15, 2009, 4:27:56 PM11/15/09
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In article <13344-4B0...@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net>,
ell...@webtv.net wrote:

> Reed on NCIS, is a much cuter know-all. He was a
> prodigy and has an eidetic memory.

I enjoy him 8-) But why is he still on crutches? Did he REALLY get
injured somehow?

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 15, 2009, 4:54:26 PM11/15/09
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>In books I can't think of anyone else. But there must be. Miss Marple
>sort of tempts me, but she's much more intuitive than brilliant.

I wouldn't say that. Miss Marple is good at analogizing from
previous experience. She solves a lot of her mysteries with
"Oh, that reminds me of Mr. Thwaite the butcher, who was a
churchwarden for forty years, and we only found out when he
died that he'd been keeping a second establishment, getting five
children on a former housemaid whom he kept in a neighboring
village, and left everything to her!" For example.

Christie modeled her on her great-aunt, who had also lived a long
life and observed a great many human errors (so to speak), and
tended to give everything that happened in the present the worst
possible interpretation, quoting the analogy of Mr. Thwaite or
whoever.

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:03:57 PM11/15/09
to
In article <10ce92bb-518e-458d...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

Fire Tiger <recreati...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>And if anyone knows (or has a pretty good guess), why have the genius
>detectives and less-than-genius sidekicks (who double as chroniclers)
>fallen out of favor?

Styles, and tastes, change. I read an essay once by Lawrence
Block in which he says of Sayers's mysteries that they have too
many extraneous materials and side-passages and so on. He
mentions the bell cipher in _The Nine Tailors_ and the Playfair
cipher in _Have His Carcase_, and seems to think that Sayers
managed to get away with this unnecessary boring stuff because of
other good qualities in her work. But in the thirties people
*liked* ciphers and puzzles in their mysteries. Nowadays they
don't; nowadays they don't appear to like genius detectives (with
or without average-level sidekicks). Both of these could swing
back some time.


>
>P.S. I wouldn't classify Archie Goodwin as a "dumb" sidekick.

No, but he's not as smart as Wolfe. Few of us are.

Hmmm. There's always Asimov's assorted Tales of the Black
Widowers (in at least five volumes), in which the same formula is
always followed: somebody brings up a puzzle, all the guests puzzle
over it and come to various conclusions, none of which work;
after which Henry the waiter either knows, or can figure out, or
(frequently) knows where to look up the answer. The guests are
professional men in various fields, none of them stupid but never
as clever as Henry.

I.E.Z.

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:47:26 PM11/15/09
to

"erilar" <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:drache-9AA508....@news.eternal-september.org...

Yes, the actor had a real-life, serious knee injury that has required
several surgeries. He dislocated his kneecap while dancing.

Iris


Dave in Toronto

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 8:04:42 PM11/15/09
to
> Hmmm.  There's always Asimov's assorted Tales of the Black
> Widowers (in at least five volumes), in which the same formula is
> always followed: somebody brings up a puzzle, all the guests puzzle
> over it and come to various conclusions, none of which work;
> after which Henry the waiter either knows, or can figure out, or
> (frequently) knows where to look up the answer.  The guests are
> professional men in various fields, none of them stupid but never
> as clever as Henry.
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt

Nice catch Dorothy. These were in the back of my mind somewhere but I
couldn't remember the author or title. Also in the recesses of my
memory is a detective whose side-kick was a ghost - can't remember
whether the ghost narrated the stories or not. Ring a bell with
anyone?

Dave in Toronto

Stanley Moore

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 8:25:01 PM11/15/09
to

"Dave in Toronto" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:e0e6247c-9dd5-496c...@m33g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...

Dave in Toronto
---------------------------------------------------------------

Are you thinking of the Carolyn Haines series that uses the word "bones" in
the titles? I think the first one is called Dem Bones. The sleuth is a
spinster from the Old South who gets involved with murders in her local
community. She has a "haint" who is a slave girl, kitchen maid who worked
for the family back in pre Civil War times. They converse and the haint
goads the woman to do something about getting married while supplying input
into the mystery.

The ghost in this case seems to me not to be literal but rather an imagining
of the sleuth. The ghost does not narrate. I think it is written in first
person by the sleuth. The stories are pretty interesting thought like most
cozies are heavily feminine oriented. I can recommend the series. Take care

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 9:25:18 PM11/15/09
to
In article <2vCdnabN1JxoNJ3W...@giganews.com>,

There's also a series beginning (I think) with one called _Aunt
Dimity's Ghost._

Joan in GB-W

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 11:36:44 AM11/16/09
to

"Pogonip" <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:4b006752$1...@news.bnb-lp.com...

> ell...@webtv.net wrote:
>> Ellery Queen
>>
>> Great suggestion, Cartoon Boy! Of all of them, he's my
>> favorite--actually, my one and only. There are a couple on tv, but
>> they're not so much geniuses as know-ir-alls. Vincent D'Onofrio's
>> character on L&O, CI, is hilarious. He knows at least something about
>> absolutely everything from Egyptian burial practices to the properties
>> of explosives. Reed on NCIS, is a much cuter know-all. He was a
>> prodigy and has an eidetic memory.
>>
>> In books I can't think of anyone else. But there must be. Miss Marple
>> sort of tempts me, but she's much more intuitive than brilliant.
>>
>> Ellen
>>
>
> Reed? Spencer Reed? On Criminal Minds?
> --
> Joanne

Are you sure Reed has an eidetic memory. I kinda remember from one of the
episodes when he was asked about something, he replied his memory was a
????? one, something like a photographic memory, but he had to read the
material to remember it. He couldn't just hear it.

Joan

erilar

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 11:41:57 AM11/16/09
to
In article <Kt67y...@kithrup.com>,

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> Styles, and tastes, change. I read an essay once by Lawrence
> Block in which he says of Sayers's mysteries that they have too
> many extraneous materials and side-passages and so on. He
> mentions the bell cipher in _The Nine Tailors_ and the Playfair
> cipher in _Have His Carcase_, and seems to think that Sayers
> managed to get away with this unnecessary boring stuff because of
> other good qualities in her work. But in the thirties people
> *liked* ciphers and puzzles in their mysteries. Nowadays they
> don't; nowadays they don't appear to like genius detectives (with
> or without average-level sidekicks). Both of these could swing
> back some time.

Sayers is one of my all-time favorites in large part BECAUSE of all the
neat stuff in her books. I've always liked Ellery Queen books because I
could never come close to anticipating the ending. I LIKE genius
detectives!

What I detest are books that tell me every thought and action of the
villains all the way through the book. Those are not mysteries at all,
in my opinion. And there are "suspense" books that do that, which
strikes me as NOT very suspenseful!

erilar

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 11:45:12 AM11/16/09
to
In article <4b006752$1...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Pogonip <nob...@nowhere.org>
wrote:

> ell...@webtv.net wrote:
> > Ellery Queen
> >
> > Great suggestion, Cartoon Boy! Of all of them, he's my
> > favorite--actually, my one and only. There are a couple on tv, but
> > they're not so much geniuses as know-ir-alls. Vincent D'Onofrio's
> > character on L&O, CI, is hilarious. He knows at least something about
> > absolutely everything from Egyptian burial practices to the properties
> > of explosives. Reed on NCIS, is a much cuter know-all. He was a
> > prodigy and has an eidetic memory.
> >
> > In books I can't think of anyone else. But there must be. Miss Marple
> > sort of tempts me, but she's much more intuitive than brilliant.
> >
> > Ellen
> >
>
> Reed? Spencer Reed? On Criminal Minds?

8-) I thought "Criminal Minds" when I saw the name and description and
didn't notice the wrong show name 8-)

Dave in Toronto

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 6:25:54 PM11/16/09
to
On Nov 14, 2:48 pm, "Stanley Moore" <smoor...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "jimbairn" <j...@jimbarker.net> wrote in message
>
> news:mLCLm.5113$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> > Anyone suggested August Derleth's SOLAR PONS series?
>
> > JimB

>
> Interesting isn't it? All the suggestions are of old school mysteries. There
> are no modern examples of the genius detective and the dumb sidekick. Take

> care
> --
> Stanley L. Moore

Perhaps to-days mystery writers regard the old formula as passe. I
notice the mystery writers now are mostly women and in real life I
know a lot of beautiful, intelligent women with very stupid husbands,
it's long been a staple of TV comedy series so I think there's room
for a brilliant woman detective with a very clumsy husband narrator.

Dave in Toronto

Dan Goodman

unread,
Nov 21, 2009, 11:46:11 PM11/21/09
to
Stanley Moore wrote:

>
> "jimbairn" <j...@jimbarker.net> wrote in message
> news:mLCLm.5113$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> > Anyone suggested August Derleth's SOLAR PONS series?
> >
> > JimB
>
> Interesting isn't it? All the suggestions are of old school
> mysteries. There are no modern examples of the genius detective and
> the dumb sidekick. Take care

There's at least one, but it's science fiction: George Turner, _Brain
Child.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal at:
dsgood.livejournal.com
dsgood.dreamwidth.org
dsgood.insanejournal.com

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