3 strip Technicolor transfer to TV ?
jan...@my-dejanews.com
Hello,
I want to know the answer to the following question - how were the movies once
shot in the 3 strip Technicolor process transfered to the TV media, like VHS,
laserdiscs and DVD? I mean, which one (or a few of them, perhaps) of the
following transfer methods was used for this task:
1. Color separations were used to create R, G and B components of the
video signal, which then were mixed together;
2. An IB print was used to make the transfer in the usual way
(if it survived, of course);
3. A print on the modern color film was made from the separations, then
it was transfered in the usual way, as in p.2.
Is it possible that all three of them were used for different movies?
Could someone with the knowledge in this subject clarify it to me, please?
Andrejs.
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Jan-Eric Nystrom
jan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I want to know the answer to the following question - how were the movies once
> shot in the 3 strip Technicolor process transfered to the TV media, like VHS,
> laserdiscs and DVD? I mean, which one (or a few of them, perhaps) of the
> following transfer methods was used for this task:
>
> 1. Color separations were used to create R, G and B components of the
> video signal, which then were mixed together;
No. This method would be too cumbersome and expensive.
>
> 2. An IB print was used to make the transfer in the usual way
> (if it survived, of course);
Probably not, unless a pristine print was available.
>
> 3. A print on the modern color film was made from the separations, then
> it was transfered in the usual way, as in p.2.
This is the method used in most cases. In fact, the low quality of many
of the transfers directly suggest this method. Sometimes the print even
was on 16 mm!
And the prints were not made directly from the separations - a duplicate
color negative was most definitely used for printing.
--
regards,
/////
Jan-Eric Nystrom, animator / - - \
Helsinki, Finland (--@-@--)
E-mail: ani...@sci.fi \ _o_ /
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the making of a 16mm 3-D movie with coupled cameras,
plus a page on model railroading in Z-scale (1:220)!
David Mullen
>1. Color separations were used to create R, G and B components of the
> video signal, which then were mixed together;
Rarely done - the only time I heard about this being used was on the new
transfers for "South Pacific" I think - the b&w separations were
transferred separately and combined electronically (but this film wasn't
3-strip Technicolor.)
>2. An IB print was used to make the transfer in the
usual way> (if it survived, of course);
Happens a lot, but transfer is prone to be harsh, contrasty, soft, and dirty.
>3. A print on the modern color film was made from the separations, then
> it was transfered in the usual way, as in p.2.
Not a print, but usually a color I.P. is made from the separate negatives and
this is used for the telecine, as well as for new prints. This is the most
common method for recent high-quality transfers for restored Technicolor films.
David M.
Wide Gauge
>which one (or a few of them, perhaps) of the
>following transfer methods was used for this task:
>
>1. Color separations were used to create R, G and B components of the
> video signal, which then were mixed together;
>
>2. An IB print was used to make the transfer in the usual way
> (if it survived, of course);
>
>3. A print on the modern color film was made from the separations, then
> it was transfered in the usual way, as in p.2.
All three methods have been used. Even cumbersome and expensive #1 was used
when it was their most cost-effective (short-term) alternative. In the long
term, using original camera negatives or rare elements of old films for video
transfer is often not cost-effective. For example, one-of-a-kind 70mm elements
of "The Alamo" (1960, Todd-AO) were torn several times while being transferred
to video. The cost to restore them has therefore skyrocketed.
Scott Marshall
Wide Gauge Film and Video Monthly
http://members.aol.com/widegauge/
JohnW248
>2. An IB print was used to make the transfer in the usual way
> (if it survived, of course);
This has been done in some cases where all that remains is a Technicolor IB
nitrate print or it may be the only accessible 35mm material available.
Generally not the best choice due to the contrast ratio of the print. And
usually there is considerable wear and handling
.
>3. A print on the modern color film was made from the separations, then
> it was transfered in the usual way, as in p.2.
The best way is if the 3 strip negatives are printed to an Eastmancolor
Interpositive. The IP can be controlled for color and the telecine has a set up
to use for IP. This gives you material which is in effect first generation.
Alternatively if a 35mm Eastman color negative exists, it could be used (lots
of dirt problems usually dealing with that) or a Low Con print could be struck.
All the the methods of making suitable pre-print are expensive which is why
titles which have little appeal are transfered from existing prints. Worst case
is what happens to some PD titles where faded Eastman color prints from pirated
dupes are transfered (such as some of the Popeye 2 reel cartoons which were in
beautiful 3-strip Technicolor).
John
John C. Schmuhl
>
> Hello,
>
> I want to know the answer to the following question - how were the movies once
> shot in the 3 strip Technicolor process transfered to the TV media, like VHS,
> following transfer methods was used for this task:
>
> 1. Color separations were used to create R, G and B components of the
> video signal, which then were mixed together;
>
> (if it survived, of course);
>
> it was transfered in the usual way, as in p.2.
>
>
> Could someone with the knowledge in this subject clarify it to me, please?
>
> Andrejs.
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
I thought at one time color prints intended for TV/telecine were
timed/printed differently than their counterparts intended for normal
projection. I recall that these prints had a yellow-ish (?) or another
color look to them if they were normally projected.
JohnW248
In article <schmuhlj-0...@137.128.81.229>, schm...@cc.tacom.army.mil
(John C. Schmuhl) writes:
>I recall that these prints had a yellow-ish (?) or another
>color look to them if they were normally projected.
This was what we used to call "German Spec". There was a big controversy about
the proper color balance and in the early seventies you would order prints as
Inky or Xenon. The "Blue" and "Green" 16mm rooms at CFI used Eastman 25
projectors and for Xenon a blue filter (i.e. your yellow prints). The theory
was that the print should be balanced to the color temp of the color tv
display.
This was before the use of the Rank, and the major corrections were provided by
an little automated "netural density" wheel which was coupled to the video
output of the film chain. It was also before low contrast color print films.
Black and white tv prints were normally made to a lower gamma resulting in a
"muddy" look on direct projection. The so called "tv print" look.
John
jan...@my-dejanews.com
Thanks to all of you, who gave me very complete answers to
my questions. So, there is a color IP on the "traditional"
multilayer color film nearly always involved it this process.
What does it mean in the terms of color quality, especially
when compared to the original IB Technicolor prints for cinema?
I saw many of the restored 3 strip Technicolor movies ("Singin'
In The Rain" and "The Band Wagon", to mention a few) on TV, and
I was very amazed by the bright and vivid colors, even when compared
to the modern movies. Does it mean that the IB prints of the
all these movies looked even better on the big screen? Wow!
Wide Gauge
>I saw many of the restored 3 strip Technicolor movies ("Singin'
>In The Rain" and "The Band Wagon", to mention a few) on TV, and
>I was very amazed by the bright and vivid colors, even when compared
>to the modern movies. Does it mean that the IB prints of the
>all these movies looked even better on the big screen? Wow!
Many did, because the color dyes used for Technicolor release prints have no
adequate counterparts in television phosphors.
Eric Grayson
On Thu, Jul 2, 1998 8:19 AM, Wide Gauge <mailto:wide...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <6nfqig$82b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jan...@my-dejanews.com
writes:
>
>>I saw many of the restored 3 strip Technicolor movies ("Singin'
>>In The Rain" and "The Band Wagon", to mention a few) on TV, and
>>I was very amazed by the bright and vivid colors, even when compared
>>to the modern movies. Does it mean that the IB prints of the
>>all these movies looked even better on the big screen? Wow!
>
>Many did, because the color dyes used for Technicolor release prints have
no
>adequate counterparts in television phosphors.
>
whether they originated in 3-strip or not (Singin' in the Rain was shot on
Ansco, btw).
A good example of what I'm talking about is one of the most beautiful
pieces of IB printing I've ever seen (ironically one of the last). In the
beginning of Diamonds Are Forever (1971) there is a brief sequence with Mr.
Wint and Mr. Kidd doing some mayhem in a desert at sunset. The deep, dark
yellow tinge that the prints have during this scene is really outstanding
and lends a nice help to this scene. When you see the same section on
video, the yellows are gone (NTSC tv is notoriously weak on yellows) and
the scene looks especially grainy but not particularly saturated.
The entire feel of the scene is lost.
I really feel sorry for these people who see only inferior prints of films
on TV. All the Bond films on TBS look like they were transferred from old
16mm Eastman prints. None of them look the same as a good color 35mm
looks, particularly an IB. When AMC ran Curse of Frankenstein a while
back, it was from an Eastman print that looked nothing like some IB
trailers of it I've seen even though the print was color corrected.
Eric
Jayson Ca
>>>IB prints of movies look really exceptional on a big screen, regardless
Ansco, btw).<<<<
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't SINGIN' IN THE RAIN shot in 3-strip Tech?
From what I've heard, that the original 3-strip steps were destroyed (along
with 2 reels of An American in Paris) in a vault fire at MGM in the late
70's....and all that's left of SITR is an CRI IP made in the mid 70's.....is
this right?
And if you want to see a "kick-ass" transfer of SITR, check-out the DVD from
MGM/UA. By far, it's wins hands down over the crapy--overrated Criterion
edition, and MGM's 40th anv. edition. I don't think we'll see this title any
sharper than this for sometime....
As for Anscocolor, I know Brigadoon and Seven brides For Seven Brothers were
shot this way....
Jayson
Jays...@aol.com
"Ladies and Gentlemen - This is CINERAMA!"
Earlyfilm
"Eric Grayson" wrote:
>
>IB prints of movies look really exceptional on a big
“Singing in the Rain” was not Ansco color
The Ansco features are:
First process (reversal):
Sixteen Fathoms Deep
The Man on the Eiffel Tower
New Mexico
Tembo
Island of Allah
2nd process: (negative):
Seven Brides for Seven Brothers
The Student Prince
Brigadoon
Kiss Me Kate
Take the High Ground
The Long, Long Trailer
Earl.
Earlyfilm
Oops, attempted to correct typo and
the draft "sent"
"Eric Grayson" wrote:
>
>IB prints of movies look really exceptional on a big
>screen, regardless of whether they originated in 3-strip
>or not (Singin' in the Rain was shot on Ansco, btw).
“Singing in the Rain” was not Ansco color
The Ansco features are:
First process (reversal):
Sixteen Fathoms Deep
The Man on the Eiffel Tower
New Mexico
Tembo
Island of Allah
2nd process: (negative):
The Wild North, (MGM)
JohnW248
In article <199807022156...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, jays...@aol.com
(Jayson Ca) writes:
>As for Anscocolor, I know Brigadoon and Seven brides For Seven Brothers were
>shot this way....
>
Yup! SINTR was 3-strip, negative lost in fire (See Richard May's movie "Race to
Save 100 Years).
The Ansco Color Negative Positive was used on:
"The Wild North", "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers", "The Student Prince",
"Kiss Me Kate" (3D), "Brigadoon", "Take the High Ground", "The Long, Long
Trailer" (Lucille Ball). (All MGM)
The Ansco Color Reversal Material:
"Climbing the Matterhorn" (1948 2 reel Monogram)
"Sixteen Fathoms Deep" (Monogram)
"The Man on the Eiffel Tower," "New Mexico," Tembo," "Island of Allah" (not the
Technicolor picture "Garden....)
(BTW Peter, your right, the US Government put Ansco into General Aniline & Film
when it took possession from Agfa-Ansco and this process --the reversal
film--was developed for military photography during WWII and bear a strong
similarity to an Agfa reversal film process.).
John
PeterH5322
>>
(BTW Peter, your right, the US Government put Ansco into General Aniline & Film
when it took possession from Agfa-Ansco and this process --the reversal
film--was developed for military photography during WWII and bear a strong
similarity to an Agfa reversal film process.).
>>
Thanks, John.
Peter.
Scott Norwood
In article <199807030001...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
JohnW248 <john...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Yup! SINTR was 3-strip, negative lost in fire (See Richard May's movie "Race to
>Save 100 Years).
Go see "Race to Save 100 Years"! It's one of the best recent
documentaries that I've seen in quite a while. It's an excellent film
in and of itself, and the subject matter will be appreciated by everyone
here. It appears that it's being shown primarily at film festivals
and museums, but it will probably air on one of Turner's cable channels
sometime soon, as well (but is best appreciated in 35mm, of course).
--
Scott Norwood: snor...@nyx.net, snor...@redballoon.net, sen...@mail.wm.edu
Cool Home Page: http://www.redballoon.net/
Lame Quote: Penguins? In Snack Canyon?
Eric Grayson
On Thu, Jul 2, 1998 3:56 PM, Jayson Ca <mailto:jays...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>IB prints of movies look really exceptional on a big screen, regardless
on
>Ansco, btw).<<<<
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't SINGIN' IN THE RAIN shot in 3-strip
Tech?
>From what I've heard, that the original 3-strip steps were destroyed
(along
>with 2 reels of An American in Paris) in a vault fire at MGM in the late
>70's....and all that's left of SITR is an CRI IP made in the mid
70's.....is
>this right?
>
case, the material that MGM was working on for the restoration was, (and
again I'm not 100% here) old Ansco material.
There was a big fire in 1970 or so at MGM. I'm not aware of one after
that. I know of some people who have IB prints of SITR made after 1970...
The way to settle this 100% is to ask Dick May, who supervised the
restoration. I haven't seen it, but I hear it's magnificent...
Eric
Richard P. May
Eric Grayson wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 1998 8:19 AM, Wide Gauge <mailto:wide...@aol.com> wrote:
> >In article <6nfqig$82b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jan...@my-dejanews.com
> writes:
> >
> >>I saw many of the restored 3 strip Technicolor movies ("Singin'
> >>In The Rain" and "The Band Wagon", to mention a few) on TV, and
> >>I was very amazed by the bright and vivid colors, even when compared
> >>to the modern movies. Does it mean that the IB prints of the
> >>all these movies looked even better on the big screen? Wow!
> >
> >Many did, because the color dyes used for Technicolor release prints have
> no
> >adequate counterparts in television phosphors.
> >
> whether they originated in 3-strip or not (Singin' in the Rain was shot on
> Ansco, btw).
>
> pieces of IB printing I've ever seen (ironically one of the last). In the
> beginning of Diamonds Are Forever (1971) there is a brief sequence with Mr.
> Wint and Mr. Kidd doing some mayhem in a desert at sunset. The deep, dark
> yellow tinge that the prints have during this scene is really outstanding
> and lends a nice help to this scene. When you see the same section on
> video, the yellows are gone (NTSC tv is notoriously weak on yellows) and
> the scene looks especially grainy but not particularly saturated.
>
> The entire feel of the scene is lost.
>
> I really feel sorry for these people who see only inferior prints of films
> on TV. All the Bond films on TBS look like they were transferred from old
> 16mm Eastman prints. None of them look the same as a good color 35mm
> looks, particularly an IB. When AMC ran Curse of Frankenstein a while
> back, it was from an Eastman print that looked nothing like some IB
> trailers of it I've seen even though the print was color corrected.
>
> Eric
nitrate negatives were destroyed in a vault fire in 1978. Current
prints are from a new internegative made from the protection masters.
Ansco was used for KISS ME KATE (3D, where the 3-strip camera was
impracticaL) BRIGADOON (shot both C'Scope and flat), SEVEN BRIDES FOR
SEVEN BROTHERS (same double shooting), and several other MGM
non-musicals.
George Shelps
Dick May wrote:
>SINGIN' IN THE RAIN was not Ansco. It
>was 3-strip. The original nitrate negatives
>were destroyed in a vault fire in 1978.
>Current prints are from a new
>internegative made from the protection
>masters. Ansco was used for KISS ME
>KATE (3D, where the 3-strip camera was
>impracticaL) BRIGADOON (shot both
>C'Scope and flat), SEVEN BRIDES FOR
>SEVEN BROTHERS (same double
>shooting), and several other MGM
>non-musicals.
THE STUDENT PRINCE was also in Ansco Color. Why did MGM experiment
with this rather pastel color system? It was so unlike the rich, bold
hues of Technicolor.
JohnW248
In article <19716-35...@newsd-144.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
G-H...@webtv.net (George Shelps) writes:
> Why did MGM experiment
>with this rather pastel color system? It was so unlike the rich, bold
>hues of Technicolor.
I don't think it had anything to do with "pastel" but rather availability of
being able to shoot a color picture without waiting for a 3-strip camera or
having the weight and other problems associated with 3-strip. There may also be
political reasons which are buried in the history of this period and the
relationship between Technicolor and MGM. The Ansco materials were processed by
MGM labs, their first branching from black and white into what would become
Metrocolor Labs. And remember that ultimately Technicolor still made the
release prints for these pictures (Color by Ansco, prints by Technicolor as I
recall on Kiss Me Kate).
John
Jayson Ca
Who bought Metrocolor when Turner Entertainment sold it?
PeterH5322
>>
And remember that ultimately Technicolor still made the release prints for
these pictures (Color by Ansco, prints by Technicolor as I recall on Kiss Me
Kate) ...
>>
Technicolor apparently made release prints from just about every source
imaginable, including all competitors negatives.
Probably some of the best prints of Eastmancolor-sourced films, printed in the
U.S. only on Eastmancolor positive print stock, were printed in the U.K. by
Technicolor in dye-transfer.
Navarone and Star Wars come immediately to mind. I believe all James Dean
features as well.
In some cases, 4-track mag prints are still available in the U.K. where there
are only optical prints available in the U.S.
George Shelps
JohnW248 wrote:
>And remember that ultimately Technicolor
>still made the release prints for these
>pictures (Color by Ansco, prints by
>Technicolor as I recall on Kiss Me Kate).
Wasn't Eastmancolor available then?
Why use Ansco?
At the time, Ansco was made by a government-owned company, General
Aniline and Film, which had been seized from its German ownership during
WWII.
>There may also be political reasons which
>are buried in the history of this period and
>the relationship between Technicolor and
>MGM.
Possible something to do with the Ansco-US government connection?
jan...@my-dejanews.com
As I understand, Eastmancolor basically means
the same 3 layer color negative or positive
film, which is extensively used in the amateur
photography and the amateur cinema. What
about Ansco, Metrocolor and a few others (the
names of which I can't quite recall)? Could
someone give me a short description?
JohnW248
In article <199807040605...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, jays...@aol.com
(Jayson Ca) writes:
>Who bought Metrocolor when Turner Entertainment sold it?
There was some talk at the time of it being run by Lorimar and Disney. Disney
backed out and Lorimar was sucked up by Warner Bros. The laboratory was shut
down and Harry Teitlbaum (sp?) of Hollywood Film Company handled the sale of
the lab equipment. What wasn't sold went into their inventory.
Now you want to know what happend to HFC, right?
John
JohnW248
In article <21092-35...@newsd-141.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
G-H...@webtv.net (George Shelps) writes:
>JohnW248 wrote:
>
>>And remember that ultimately Technicolor
>>still made the release prints for these
>>pictures (Color by Ansco, prints by
>>Technicolor as I recall on Kiss Me Kate).
>
>Wasn't Eastmancolor available then?
>Why use Ansco?
Ansco was in the market first, but the Eastman thing relates to below.
>At the time, Ansco was made by a government-owned company, General
>Aniline and Film, which had been seized from its German ownership during
>WWII.
The German ownership was Agfa which later became Agfa-Gevaert and finally Bayer
(another "name" the US Government took during WWII). So Ansco had access to all
the early (1935) Agfa color coupler technology and early film research.
>
>>There may also be political reasons which
>>are buried in the history of this period and
>>the relationship between Technicolor and
>>MGM.
>
>Possible something to do with the Ansco-US government connection?
>
More likely the US anti-trust suit on color cinematography against Technicolor
and Eastman Kodak. But since it was a consent decree signed by both parties, I
don't know if all the government's allegations are in the public record.
John