The great film format mysteries
Dan Sherlock
I would present a list of questions on film formats that don't yet
seem to have documented answers. In some cases, there may have been a
lead on an answer to some of these questions, but it was rarely more
than someone's recollection. If anyone knows the answers to any of
these questions, and in particular, a reliable source for this
information, it would be very much appreciated.
-Dan Sherlock
==========
What is the offset (frames or inches or mm) between sound and picture
for the following formats:
- 8-perf VistaVision prints with optical sound
- 8-perf VistaVision prints with magnetic sound
- 8-perf Technirama prints with optical sound
- 8-perf Technirama prints with magnetic sound
- 56mm Magnafilm (for the short "We're In the Army Now)
- 65mm Vitascope/Fearless Super-Film
- 6-perf 55mm CinemaScope 55 prints (intended)
What movies were confirmed as having 8-perf VistaVision or Technirama
release prints made? Are there any besides WHITE CHRISTMAS, STRATEGIC
AIR COMMAND, BATTLE OF THE RIVER PLATE/PURSUIT OF THE GRAF SPEE, THE
MONTE CARLO STORY and STORY OF A PATRIOT?
Are there any movies shot in Technirama that did not use the Delrama
anamorphic adapters, and if so then which titles?
What movies have been released using magnetic prints with KS perfs?
Some Baker Cinemiracle prints had two oxide stripes – one had a mono
version of the soundtrack, the other had a control tone to switch the
configuration of the surround speakers. Which track had the mono
sound – the one corresponding to track 1 on CinemaScope prints, or the
corresponding to the track 3 position?
What movies if any were photographed using anamorphic 2x 'scope lenses
(like CinemaScope) using a 3-strip Technicolor camera?
What theaters showed FANTASIA using the original Fantasound equipment?
What movies were advertised as being presented in Magnascope?
Was the premiere of the 3D film THRILLS FOR YOU before or after the
premiere of the 3D film IN TUNE WITH TOMORROW?
What movies if any were released using any anaglyphic 3D prints in the
1950's?
What theaters showed the movie HOLIDAY IN SPAIN in 70mm and advertised
that way as opposed to SCENT OF MYSTERY?
What theaters installed the Smell-O-Vision equipment for SCENT OF
MYSTERY?
When did Technicolor develop a pin belt with CS pins on it for making
dye-transfer 'scope prints, and what was the first film released that
way?
JOURNEY TO THE STARS was shown in Cinerama 360 (the first version
using .234 inch pitch film) at the Seattle World's Fair in 1962.
After the fair the theater became part of the Seattle Science Center
and continued to show films in this process for several years. What
other titles were made and shown in the theater in this process?
J. Theakston
wrote:
> What movies have been released using magnetic prints with KS perfs?
Some mag-op prints did go out with CS perfs, and then on sub-run, were
re-perfed with KS perfs, since only the optical was going to be used.
> What movies if any were photographed using anamorphic 2x 'scope lenses
> (like CinemaScope) using a 3-strip Technicolor camera?
Others can expand upon this, but based on lens sizes, I thought this
was physically impossible.
> What movies were advertised as being presented in Magnascope?
I've got a list on this one I'm going to be posting soon. There's
also a difference between Magnascope as advertised as the process, and
similar zoom-lens processes which didn't use the Del Riccio lens.
> Was the premiere of the 3D film THRILLS FOR YOU before or after the
> premiere of the 3D film IN TUNE WITH TOMORROW?
It would seem that IN TUNE was released before THRILLS, but THRILLS
FOR YOU was released before NEW DIMENSIONS (which was re-issued by RKO
as MOTOR RHYTHM).
> What movies if any were released using any anaglyphic 3D prints in the
> 1950's?
No American features (but two foreign films being released). Lippert
and Dan Sonney shorts. The Lippert shorts were also available dual-
strip.
J. Theakston
Merry Christmas!
Steve Kraus
I thought the CinemaScope 3-strip tests never came to fruition.
RD in Kennesaw
but the following were the only cities which did:
Baltimore
Boston
Buffalo
Chicago
Cleveland
Detroit
Los Angeles (Carthay Circle)
Minneapolis
New York (Broadway - world premiere 11/13/1940)
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
San Francisco
Washington
On Dec 25, 9:21 am, Dan Sherlock <filmformatsremove-t...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
Derek Gee
"J. Theakston" <tomser...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:94cb3b9c-560b-4e46...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> What movies if any were released using any anaglyphic 3D prints in the
>> 1950's?
>
>No American features (but two foreign films being released). Lippert
>and Dan Sonney shorts. The Lippert shorts were also available dual-
>strip.
What about the 1953 reissue of the MGM Audioskopiks shorts in anaglyph,
"Metroscopix"?
Derek
Derek Gee
news:eb13b07c-4b3c-4137...@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>I don't know for sure which THEATRES showed "Fantasia" in FantaSound,
>but the following were the only cities which did:
>Baltimore
>Boston
>Buffalo
>Chicago
>Cleveland
>Detroit
>Los Angeles (Carthay Circle)
>Minneapolis
>New York (Broadway - world premiere 11/13/1940)
>Philadelphia
>Pittsburgh
>San Francisco
>Washington
Do we have any idea how many Fantasound sets were made? Were all these
cities playing it at once?
Derek
RD in Kennesaw
now. Take this with a grain of salt, as I found some notable errors
in other places.
"Only two Fantasound systems were sold to two theaters: New York's
Broadway Theater and the Carthay Circle Theater in Los Angeles. These
installations cost $85,000 and included 54 speakers placed throughout
the auditorium. Because of this high cost, Disney devised a system
known as the "Fantasia Road Shows". Eight of these scaled back
versions of Fantasound were produced. They were $45,000 and weighed
15,000 pounds each. They toured a total 14 theaters and each one
filled up half of one freight car during shipment."
Doing the math, it looks like there were 16 theatres involved, but not
simultaneously.
On Dec 26, 3:58 pm, "Derek Gee" <dgeeSPAMSU...@twmi.INVALID.rr.com>
wrote:
fur...@mail.croydon.ac.uk
There are three articles on Fantasound in he Widescreen museum;
they're available here:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/sound04.htm
None of them seems to answer the question of how many sets of
equipment were built, but the roadshowing of Fantasound with
'portatable' equipment is mentioned in the third one, and seems to
confirm the above quote.
There are also pictures of the equipment, at least that pat of it
installed in the projection room, circuit diagrams of parts of the
TOGAD, and a description of the many versions that Fantasound went
through during its development.
When the 50th anniversary VHS edition of Fantasia was released it was
stated, I can't remember by who, that by the 1950s the original
Fantasound recordings were found to be deteriorating, which is odd,
because some 40 years later when the 60th anniversary version was
being prepared it was stated that most of the original picture
negative survived, and was usable. I think the 'Pastoral Symphony'
sequence was the main exception. It was also stated that it was
decided to transfer the existing recordings to magnetic film at that
time, and that only one set of reproducing equipment still existed at
this time, and since no magnetic recording equipment existed at the
same location the signals were sent over the best quality lines
available, which did however introduce various problems, including 60
Hz. mains hum, and phase shifts between the channels, which would
obviously cause problems when a Dolby Stereo version was prepared. As
far as I am aware all existing copies of the Fantasound track are
derived from these '50s magnetic masters.
Derek Gee
>Here's the information I got from a website whose author I can't find
>now. Take this with a grain of salt, as I found some notable errors
>in other places.
>
>"Only two Fantasound systems were sold to two theaters: New York's
>Broadway Theater and the Carthay Circle Theater in Los Angeles. These
>installations cost $85,000 and included 54 speakers placed throughout
>the auditorium. Because of this high cost, Disney devised a system
>known as the "Fantasia Road Shows".
Did they REALLY use 54 speakers? I've seen various numbers from 30 to 80
tossed about. 50+ speakers seems like overkill to me, and the documentation
on Fantasound at Marty's website doesn't indicate speaker totals.
Derek
Derek Gee
news:1bef6188-2351-4059...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>When the 50th anniversary VHS edition of Fantasia was released it was
>stated, I can't remember by who, that by the 1950s the original
>Fantasound recordings were found to be deteriorating, which is odd,
>because some 40 years later when the 60th anniversary version was
>being prepared it was stated that most of the original picture
>negative survived, and was usable. I think the 'Pastoral Symphony'
>sequence was the main exception.
I found that odd myself. So much of Disney's vault is in excellent shape it
seems hard to believe that film only a decade or so old was deteriorating.
I suspect they just tossed it, not wanting to store it anymore. I don't
remember hearing about any negative problems with the 'Pastoral Symphony'
segment, other than the censorship of Sunflower and her friends. Perhaps
the optically-zoomed footage used in the 60's re-release was what had
deteriorated? I guess I should dig out my 1990 Laserdisc of Fantasia and
check out the restoration info.
Derek
Scott Dorsey
If you count three-way cabinets as three speakers, that is 18 channels,
which would seem a reasonable number.
--scott
>
>Derek
>
>
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
J. Theakston
wrote:
> "J. Theakston" <tomservoro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Only released in the UK. Does that count?
J. Theakston
J. Theakston
That should actually read "in other countries," since it was released
in Europe and Mexico, to my knowledge. But I don't think that a re-
issue of three, twenty-year old shorts really counts.
J. Theakston
Derek Gee
It was released in Japan as well, I've seen the Japanese lobby card. I was
not aware that there was no US release of "Metroscopix". I'm inclined to
believe it counts, but with an asterisk (like the movie 61*).
Derek
Derek Gee
news:hh8gab$aaf$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Not really. Fantasound was recorded on eight channels and mixed down to
three channels and a control track. Why would you need 18 channels?
If I read the documentation right, the Mark VII system used three speakers
(horns). The Mark IX system added "two sets of rear horns" which sounds
like seven speakers total. So where is all this 30+ speaker numbers coming
from? The block diagrams don't hint at anything like that number.
Derek
Scott Dorsey
>Not really. Fantasound was recorded on eight channels and mixed down to
>three channels and a control track. Why would you need 18 channels?
Depends on what the control track does. Does the control track just set
levels, or does it also switch speakers around (a la Perspecta)?
>If I read the documentation right, the Mark VII system used three speakers
>(horns). The Mark IX system added "two sets of rear horns" which sounds
>like seven speakers total. So where is all this 30+ speaker numbers coming
>from? The block diagrams don't hint at anything like that number.
If those are two-way or three-way horns, multiply that, because they're probably
talking about the number of drivers not the number of cabinets.
--scott
Stephen Furley
On 28/12/09 03:26, in article
4b382579$0$5080$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com, "Derek Gee"
<dgeeSP...@twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote:
> Not really. Fantasound was recorded on eight channels and mixed down to
> three channels and a control track. Why would you need 18 channels?
>
> If I read the documentation right, the Mark VII system used three speakers
> (horns). The Mark IX system added "two sets of rear horns" which sounds
> like seven speakers total. So where is all this 30+ speaker numbers coming
> from? The block diagrams don't hint at anything like that number.
I remember seeing a picture which showed several small surround speakers
just in the part of the auditorium shown. If that was repeated throughout
the rest of the balcony, and the stalls area (I don't think you use that
term over there, but I'm not sure what you would call it, the downstairs
part of the theatre) I wouldn't be surprised if 50 odd speakers were
involved in total. I think the documentation only mentioned channels, not
the number of speakers attached to each.
Martin Hart
Here's all that I can contribute to your list:
TO CATCH A THIEF was issued in 8-perf VistaVision, but I have no idea
how many prints were made. I have a few frames from a very deteriorated
Eastman Color 8-perf print.
Other than MONTE CARLO STORY, in Italy, there were no Technirama
features put into release with 8-perf prints.
No features were shot with 2x anamorphic lenses using a 3-strip camera.
I have Technicolor's in house made prism anamorphic lens used to test
the feasibility. At that time, 1953, the double expansion of the image
on screen showed off the slightly imprecise registration of the
combination of camera and printer. Eastman Color Negative was the fix
for the photography and, briefly, Eastman Color print film was the fix
for the printer, though Tech improved their registration and dye spread
pretty quickly so that IB prints from Eastman Color negatives yielded
exceedingly good results.
The only VistaVision film with magnetic prints was "Story of a Patriot",
which used a six track arrangement developed by Todd-AO. Over the years
several sets of prints were made to replace worn out films. Bob Harris
ultimately did a full restoration of the negative and the film is now
shown in 70mm.
Marty
In article <b7de99fc-e65a-40f8-8d68-83d49a1a7390
@f18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, filmformats...@yahoo.com says...
Jim Nason
"Stephen Furley" <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:C75EB814.48583%aoo...@dsl.pipex.com...
The term "stalls" as used in the U.K. is equivalent to the term "orchestra
seating" in the USA. By the late 1950s and 1960s, the term applied to the
main floor of a theatre. That may not seem logical, but that's how hard
tickets (reserved seats) were sold.
In the vast majority of US theatres today, there are no balconies, no
mezzanines, and no orchestras, only one floor of seats.
Jim Nason
Stephen Furley
On 28/12/09 21:49, in article
hdKdnST27-5BuqTW...@metrocastcablevision.com, "Jim Nason"
<jhn...@metrocast.net> wrote:
> The term "stalls" as used in the U.K. is equivalent to the term "orchestra
> seating" in the USA. By the late 1950s and 1960s, the term applied to the
> main floor of a theatre. That may not seem logical, but that's how hard
> tickets (reserved seats) were sold.
>
> In the vast majority of US theatres today, there are no balconies, no
> mezzanines, and no orchestras, only one floor of seats.
The same here; it used to be stalls and circle.
A large cinema here would typically have been about 2000-2500 seats; not
many were 3000, and the largest of all was the Gaumont State, Kilburn, at
4004.
When I first saw the Loew's Jersey, one of only three American theatres that
I've been in I thought it didn't look very big for its published original
capacity. I was shown around one evening when the theatre wasn't open. The
reason became clear when I was taken up to the closed balcony; it was huge,
with far more rows than a typical British theatre would have.
Interestingly, the vast majority of our 'super cinemas' of the '30s have
gone, and almost all of those that remain have been altered beyond
recognition, but a fair number of earlier cinemas, almost all from 1910,
remain as independent Art-house type places, in close to original form. The
reason for the date is that the Cinematograph act of 1909 came into effect
that year, and closed down many of the earlier venues in which film was
shown, due to inadequate fire precautions, so a lot of new cinemas were
built at the same time.
hugh biggins
>
> A large cinema here would typically have been about 2000-2500 seats; not
> many were 3000, and the largest of all was the Gaumont State, Kilburn, at
> 4004.
>
>
>
Sorry to quibble, particularly as it's off-topic. The Green's Playhouse
in Glasgow was the largest cinema in Europe, with a seating capacity
of 4368.
hugh biggins
>
> A large cinema here would typically have been about 2000-2500 seats; not
> many were 3000, and the largest of all was the Gaumont State, Kilburn, at
> 4004.
>
>
>
Sorry to quibble, particularly as it's off-topic. The Green's Playhouse
hugh biggins
> Stephen Furley wrote:
>>
>> A large cinema here would typically have been about 2000-2500 seats; not
>> many were 3000, and the largest of all was the Gaumont State, Kilburn, at
>> 4004.
>>
>>
>>
>
> in Glasgow was the largest cinema in Europe, with a seating capacity
>
> The Green's Playhouse Dundee was also larger than the Gaumont State,
> with a capacity of 4114.
>
>
Stephen Furley
On 29/12/09 00:15, in article 4B394A17...@hotmail.com, "hugh biggins"
<hugh_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry to quibble, particularly as it's off-topic. The Green's Playhouse
>> in Glasgow was the largest cinema in Europe, with a seating capacity
>> of 4368.(Later 4254)
>>
>> The Green's Playhouse Dundee was also larger than the Gaumont State,
>> with a capacity of 4114.
Sorry, my use of 'here' and 'cinema' was a bit vague; I meant the largest
purpose built cinema in England. I think that even in in England may not
have been the largest theatre in which films were eve shown, but was the
largest built specifically for that purpose. With that definition, I
believe the Gaumont State was the largest.
Derek Gee
> Derek Gee <dgeeSP...@twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote:
>>Not really. Fantasound was recorded on eight channels and mixed down to
>>three channels and a control track. Why would you need 18 channels?
>
> Depends on what the control track does. Does the control track just set
> levels, or does it also switch speakers around (a la Perspecta)?
It appears to work like Perspecta.
>>If I read the documentation right, the Mark VII system used three speakers
>>(horns). The Mark IX system added "two sets of rear horns" which sounds
>>like seven speakers total. So where is all this 30+ speaker numbers
>>coming
>>from? The block diagrams don't hint at anything like that number.
>
> If those are two-way or three-way horns, multiply that, because they're
> probably
> talking about the number of drivers not the number of cabinets.
They were two-way horns according to the article on roadshowing Fantasia.
Unfortunately, there are no pictures of the speakers or a diagram of the
theater layout.
Derek
Derek Gee
news:C75EB814.48583%aoo...@dsl.pipex.com...
>
>
>
I've seen two different numbers for the number of surround speakers - 54 and
65. I'm guessing the 65 number is for the Broadway and the 54 is for the
Carthay, but that's just an educated guess on my part. I still haven't seen
any firm documentation of those numbers from a first-hand source.
Derek
Scott Dorsey
>"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:hhahg2$fqs$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>> Derek Gee <dgeeSP...@twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote:
>>>Not really. Fantasound was recorded on eight channels and mixed down to
>>>three channels and a control track. Why would you need 18 channels?
>>
>> Depends on what the control track does. Does the control track just set
>> levels, or does it also switch speakers around (a la Perspecta)?
>
>It appears to work like Perspecta.
Well, that answers your question, doesn't it? You have a couple input
channels, you switch them to a dozen or more output channels.
Bob
I have copies of International Projectionist from 1955 with ads for
Peerless HyCandescent lamps stating that they were used for all
hozontal VV showings. In addition to STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND, they list
FAR HORIZONS and SEVEN LITTLE FOYS. I believe both of these played the
Criterion in NYC.
Bob
RD in Kennesaw
with Fantasound. Due to the problems with the time required to
install the Fantasound equipment, most movie theatres couldn't allow
the downtime, so all of the theatres listed were legitimate houses
except for Broadway, Minnesota, Carthay Circle, and Aldine. All
except National and Ford had the full Fantasound system; those two had
a modified stereo system. As you will see, there were FOURTEEN
engagements.
Now if someone has the time to look things up in old newspapers, we
can add opening dates (and maybe closing dates).
CITY THEATRE
1 Baltimore Ford (demolished 1964)
2 Boston Majestic (now owned by Emerson College)
3 Buffalo Erlanger (converted to offices in 1959)
4 Chicago Apollo (still operating)
5 Cleveland Hannah (still operating)
6 Detroit Wilson (now "Music Hall Center for Performing
Arts")
7 Los Angeles Carthay Circle (demolished 1969)
8 Minneapolis Minnesota (demolished 1958)
9 New York Broadway (still operating)
10 Philadelphia Aldine (now a CVS Pharmacy)
11 Pittsburgh Fulton (still operating)
12 San Francisco Geary (still operating)
13 Toronto Royal Alexandria (still operating)
14 Washington National (still operating)