HD recorders and another one for backup
R¤ _€b€rt°•
another HDR for post or whatever reasons, and why..
I ask this, since most high end recorders actually claim to have a
separate output for second or even third backup. ( Cantar, HHB, Deva)
I can speak only for myself, and i never used a second recorder since
the Cantar ( and i believe the HHB ) can dump Mix down poly files to a
CDR, DVD-+R, RAM, HD, Mono Files to another CDR, DVD-+R, RAM, HD.
And are people still running a DAT with a HD ?
R
steve...@charter.net
deliver to post on DAT. The jobs required 4 tracks and the post houses
required DATs for sync. I had to take time after wrap to dub the 2nd
two tracks. Some post houses haven't caught up to HD recording just
yet and I really wish they would....
Jeff Wexler
"R€ _•b•rt°" <~*y$e-?*@l?e$s.com> wrote:
> After Palmer's message i wonder how many HDR users actually use
> another HDR for post or whatever reasons, and why..
>
> And are people still running a DAT with a HD ?
Jeff Wexler comments:
I used to run a second recorder, an HHB DAT machine, certainly in the very
early days of the Deva, because this method of recording non-linear file
based production sound was totally new and un-proven. Soon after the first
couple of weeks with the Deva, almost 7 years ago now, I gained complete
confidence in the integrity and reliability of the machine. I continued to
run my HHB DAT machine in parallel with the Deva, not as a backup for
potential failure of the Deva recording (this has never happened to me) but
to "backup" the transfer procedures (which were also all new at that time).
I kept on running the DAT machine, as a backup to flawed or problematic post
procedures (as post facilities began to see that the use of the Deva
non-linear recorder, and later many other choices, were the way things were
going to be done).
Now that several other companies have followed in Zaxcom's path and have
produced non-linear recorders, the message to post was quite clear. On all
of the movies I am doing now (which tend to be fairly long form projects
with some prep time) I am confident that the post facilities can deal with
the sound files that I am delivering, so I no longer need to run a second
machine to backup their procedures.
On Mission Impossible 3, I have been running in parallel to my Deva, the
Sound Devices 744T, not so much as a backup to anything, but because it is a
beautiful machine that I had not yet had any experience with. There is
always the remote chance the Deva could fail during a take, although the
most that could ever be lost would be the remainder of the take after
failure, the 744T would in fact then serve as a backup in the true sense.
All in all I think that everyone here who has used any of the non-linear
recorders can attest to the fact that it is a very reliable method of
recording far surpassing the use of any of the DAT machines that came
before. I had always backed up my DAT machine (usually with another DAT
machine) because I did not have confidence in the reliability of the primary
DAT machine (and with good cause). With the Deva (and I assume the other
machines) this has not been necessary.
Regards, Jeff Wexler
Phillip W. Palmer, C.A.S.
Thanks for putting this in a new thread, as it is noteable discussion.
The backup routine is a leftover from the DAT days, sadly. Many of our
telecine facilities get nervous when they only see one media in the
delivery pack. I've tried on many occaisions to run one machine, as I
too believe my HD recorder is just fine on it's own...but I am
requested by my supervisors to run a second machine. So I do...
I only run a backup to the mix tracks, which is what goes to telecine
for dailies. The rest is on the hard drive for editorial, and is
delivered at a later date.
One HD recorder on my cart is good for me too! But, today I have to
have two.
~~Phillip W. Palmer, C.A.S.
www.palmeraudio.net
R¤ _€b€rt°•
>There have been occaisions when I have recorded on Deva II and had to
>deliver to post on DAT. The jobs required 4 tracks and the post houses
>required DATs for sync. I had to take time after wrap to dub the 2nd
>two tracks. Some post houses haven't caught up to HD recording just
>yet and I really wish they would....
DAT i can imagine, since , like you write, some posthouses still
prefer DAT, but it's a bit strange to me to read that you buy a X
thousand dollar machine, and then still need another machine to back
it up..( unless things do not work as advertised )
R
R¤ _€b€rt°•
<ph...@palmeraudio.net> schreef:
>Roberto,
>
>Thanks for putting this in a new thread, as it is noteable discussion.
>The backup routine is a leftover from the DAT days, sadly. Many of our
>telecine facilities get nervous when they only see one media in the
>delivery pack.
But this i do not understand. Isn;t your Deva 5 able to deliver 3
different media ( with different samplerates ) at one time ?
That would make your post house get the feeling they receive media
from more machines.
> I've tried on many occaisions to run one machine, as I
>too believe my HD recorder is just fine on it's own...but I am
>requested by my supervisors to run a second machine. So I do...
So, they pay for it, i assume.
>
>I only run a backup to the mix tracks, which is what goes to telecine
>for dailies. The rest is on the hard drive for editorial, and is
>delivered at a later date.
But according to the ad, the deva should be able to do this on it's
own ... Not true/working ?
R
Phillip W. Palmer, C.A.S.
have done it this way. On my last show, I delivered 2 DVD-RAM each for
each roll. One from internal drive, and the other from external. But
this time I have chosen to use a separate recorder.
On my current project I have an external hard drive connected to my
firewire port, which goes to editorial. The external drive has all iso
tracks and mix tracks. The internal DVD-RAM drive is used only for the
telecine DVD-RAM. My FR-2 is a back-up only to the DVD-RAM...which is
the mix tracks. It is my choice to use the FR-2, as I could burn 2
copies of the DVD-RAM for telecine...and no one would be the wiser. I
only gave the FR-2 example as an option for those that use that
machine.
Yes, they pay for it.
R¤ _€b€rt°•
<ph...@palmeraudio.net> schreef:
> My FR-2 is a back-up only to the DVD-RAM...which is
>the mix tracks. It is my choice to use the FR-2, as I could burn 2
>copies of the DVD-RAM for telecine...and no one would be the wiser. I
>only gave the FR-2 example as an option for those that use that
>machine.
Then i wonder how your setup is. Do you use the Deva as the main
recorder, and let the FR2 use a Deva signal ? Or are you routing from
a mixer a separate feed to that external recorder ?
I mean, if the client wants backup, and pays for it, it's fine by me,
but it's a bit strange to understand when one has 3 recording media (
same as a Cantar ) , another machine would be wished..
R
Phillip W. Palmer, C.A.S.
and all isos follow on tracks 2 through 8. FR-2 is also fed by my
mixer, and is only a mix track.
My delivery is as follows. Each "roll" consists of one telecine
DVD-RAM from the DEVA, and a back up DVD-R from the FR-2. At the end
of each episode, as I am currently doing a TV series, I send in a
Firewire hard drive to dialogue editorial which has all mix tracks and
iso tracks for that episode. The DEVA creates folders for each "roll"
on the hard drive.
And again, if I had it my way...I'd run one machine. But I am but a
member of a team...
John Coffey
Today in Hollywood productions, the vast majority of mixers on films, tv
and commercials are running a back-up, most often their old DAT....for
now and SD744Ts as the DAT die out.
I think back-ups will stay popular because it's just peace of mind.
It's also handy to use quickly when they want a quick 2nd unit effect
for your third person to record. Then your main recorder can stay ready
in case 1st unit rolls.
Most charge the production to turn in both a DAT and a DVD-RAM media. I
think that will change in time, but for now, due to the still new
learning process of some employees in some post houses to consistently
deal with files, it's still good insurance. Then post simply transfers
the dailies that night from the DAT, no wake-up emergency call to the
mixer and any post issue gets straightened out the next day.
That's the norm today, but I've seen a few mixers running no back-up at
all and several who send DAT's for dailies and DVD RAM directly to the
editorial department. This happens on some Skywalker edited shows and
they appreciate getting them quickly, without waiting for a copy to be
burned and sent up to them later.
The whole area of a single master is getting quite blurred and may
disappear entirely, with the mixer keeping a hard drive copy of
everything, just in case they look around and all the "masters" of a day
or days recording have disappeared. I've seen that happen several times
already.
John Coffey C.A.S.
http://www.coffeysound.com
Jeff Wexler
> different media ( with different samplerates ) at one time ?
> That would make your post house get the feeling they receive media
> from more machines.
I don't think the issue is trying to fool the post house into getting "the
feeling they receive media from more machines" it is delivering to a post
house a medium and a format they can use. For the less forward thinking post
houses, or the post houses that have not yet had experience with file based
recordings (from the Deva, HHB, Sound Devices, Fostex or even your Aaton
Cantar) they are still requesting a linear DAT medium. And as you must be
aware, the Deva does not do linear tape media (and I am also quite sure your
Cantar doesn't do that either).
>
> But according to the ad, the deva should be able to do this on it's
> own ... Not true/working ?
Do what on its own... Produce a DAT cassette? Come on, stop trying to twist
this thread into another Deva bashing Cantar worshiping exercise. When you
have a job where you would love to use only your Cantar but the client wants
a DAT, you too will have to run a second machine (or make a one-to-one in
real time at the end of the day at wrap).
Regards, Jeff Wexler
Philip Perkins
issue is the comfort level of the production people hiring you (on a
short term job like a commercial). They often just want something they
know will work from someone they've never seen before, and are in no
mood for a technical discussion about telecine equipment or edit
systems (they don't know). So many of us run an NL recorder in 24 bit
as the primary and a DAT so everyone feels better about it. The
telecine people use whichever they want, the audio post people have the
24 bit files in any case. I'll probably keep doing this until either
the DATs die or someone tells me they have no use for DAT. The thing
that finally made 1/4" TC recordings obsolete was that newer
trelecine/edit facilities didn't bother to invest in 1/4" playback
machines--and so couldn't play those tapes. Newer places now won't
bother buying DATs, so BWFs will be all they can handle and the change
will be made.
Philip Perkins CAS
-¦-R€b€rto¤
>Do what on its own... Produce a DAT cassette? Come on, stop trying to twist
>this thread into another Deva bashing Cantar worshiping exercise. When you
>have a job where you would love to use only your Cantar but the client wants
>a DAT, you too will have to run a second machine (or make a one-to-one in
>real time at the end of the day at wrap).
Pfffff....men-o-men..On this i can have a very simple answer, for once
stop being to be so paranoid if someone asks something about the way
one delivers.
Nothing to do with a Cantar, or Fostex, or HHB. On the Zaxcom website
i saw yesterday that a lot of the features have a * behind it, with
the sub remark that one should check if these features are already
working or not. If philip writes that he want's to deliver a DVD-+R, i
wondered why he would not use an external DVD-+ R burner to deliver,
and use the internal RAM burner for telecine.
Imo, very normal questions between users, without any brand bashing.
I understand by now that his clients want a second machine, something
that is not happening on my side of the Ocean, or on the Jobs i do.
Yes when i have a job that asks for DAT, i run DAT, not HD and DAT,
unless Audio post can handle it, and Pic post can;t.
.
R