Kiss Me Deadly
Voltronicus
starring Ralph Meeker as Mike Hammer is the most effective filming of
Spillane's work.
This film is under-rated classic film noir.
David Oberman
>This film is under-rated classic film noir.
I think it's very highly regarded -- among cinephiles & people who
stay up late at night -- but not widely known otherwise.
____
I will wage war against destiny!
-- Beethoven
tomcervo
> Voltronicus <fwdi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >This film is under-rated classic film noir.
>
> I think it's very highly regarded -- among cinephiles & people who
> stay up late at night
Not to mention Quentin Tarantino.
>-- but not widely known otherwise.
It's in black and white. People think there's something wrong with the
TV.
Opry phantom
> Voltronicus <fwdi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >This film is under-rated classic film noir.
>
> I think it's very highly regarded -- among cinephiles & people who
> stay up late at night -- but not widely known otherwise.
>
> ____
This film has been popular with hard boiled detective film lovers for
decades.
Of course I mean the film is Hard-Boiled, not the uh, lovers. :-\
william
This is one case where straying from the novel was a good idea. The
book is just another Mike Hammer against the commies yarn. It's
wellknown film among "noir" and crime flick buffs who, like you, think
it's a classic, to others who think it's silly. It's my top 5 private
detective films. A neat flick in almost in a catergory of its own.
William
David Matthews
"william" <willia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f3fc3546-6bf5-4838...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
I didn't like it too much and that stupid Greek Va-Va-Voom guy drove me
crazy, thank God he got offed early in the movie.
Dave in Toronto
Voltronicus
> This is one case where straying from the novel was a good idea. The
> book is just another Mike Hammer against the commies yarn. It's
> wellknown film among "noir" and crime flick buffs who, like you, think
> it's a classic, to others who think it's silly. It's my top 5 private
> detective films. A neat flick in almost in a catergory of its own.
I didn't see this film until a few years ago, long after my Mickey
Spillane reading era.
After seeing it, I reread the novel, which I thought was standard Mike
Hammer fare.
I agree that the story in the film is actually an improvement on the
original story.
Ralph Meeker casual brutality is a standout performance.
Opry phantom
wrote:
> "william" <williamahe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Sheesh! This comes from a hoser, who was a charter member of the
MacKenzie Bros. Fan(boy?) Club, eh!
David Matthews
"Opry phantom" <xanth...@att.net> wrote in message
news:6b96aa4b-0b50-4a7c...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
David Matthews
"Opry phantom" <xanth...@att.net> wrote in message
news:6b96aa4b-0b50-4a7c...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/9134/
Dave in Toronto
George Peatty
wrote:
No. I like it, too, all except the ending, but no: Kiss Me Deadly is
intended to be the "anti-noir" .. Spend some time over on the imdb page, and
read some of the comments there and on the Classics Film Board. Noir films
embrace the conventions of noir; they do not repudiate them, as this film
tries to do ..
Voltronicus
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:06:04 -0700 (PDT), Voltronicus <fwdi...@hotmail.com>
Interesting point - "film blanc" perhaps?
Anyway, I'm going to add it to my Netflix list for another viewing in
the not-too-distant future.
Sean O'Hara
declared:
> On Jul 23, 6:58 pm, George Peatty <peattyg47-1...@copper.net> wrote:
>> No. I like it, too, all except the ending, but no: Kiss Me Deadly is
>> intended to be the "anti-noir" .. Spend some time over on the imdb page, and
>> read some of the comments there and on the Classics Film Board. Noir films
>> embrace the conventions of noir; they do not repudiate them, as this film
>> tries to do ..
>
> Interesting point - "film blanc" perhaps?
"Film blanc" is used to describe heavenly bureaucracy films like
It's a Wonderful Life, A Matter of Life and Death, Here Comes Mr.
Jordan, etc.
Voltronicus
> "Film blanc" is used to describe heavenly bureaucracy films like
> It's a Wonderful Life, A Matter of Life and Death, Here Comes Mr.
> Jordan, etc.
Interesting. I visited filmblanc.info after reading your post.
Interesting site.
Mr. Furious
59c445...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
There *is*. Some asshole invented color.
endy9
news:6fa3a13a-f2c2-4860...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I saw this last year for the first time and was mesmerized. Been trying to
decide when it's been long enough for me to sit and watch it again.
Wonderful viewing experience.
Pjk
> "Voltronicus" <fwdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
The other Spillane film I like is Ring of Fear, partly because of the
odd cast: Mickey himself, Clyde Beatty, Pat O'Brien, and a really
creepy Sean McClory. Kenneth Tobey is hidden away in there, too.
Pjk
David Matthews
"Pjk" <peter_k...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:4c3debf2-57cb-450d...@1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Pjk
RING OF FEAR_ is an oddity all right - Interesting to see Clyde Beatty at
work, I guess the humane society would have something to say about his act
to-day
Another one is the British made _ THE GIRL HUNTERS _ where Spillane plays
Mike Hammer - not as bad as you might expect - Shirley Eaton is his leading
lady.
I also have vague memories of _ THE LONG WAIT_ with Anthony Quinn playing
Johnny McBride.
Dave in Toronto
unglued
> "william" <williamahe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
The girl "getting offed" is one of the most suggestive killings I've
seen, just her feet bobbing up and down, "everything" left to the
imagination but frightningly brutal.
>
> Dave in Toronto
Bluuuuue Rajah
news:f3fc3546-6bf5-4838...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 22, 11:06 pm, Voltronicus <fwdi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Even though it strayed from Spillane's novel, I feel "Kiss Me
>> Deadly", starring Ralph Meeker as Mike Hammer is the most effective
>> filming of Spillane's work.
>> This film is under-rated classic film noir.
>
> This is one case where straying from the novel was a good idea. The
> book is just another Mike Hammer against the commies yarn.
I'm just finishing it up now, and it's Mike Hammer against a pathetic
caricature of the Mafia. Spillane really isn't much of a writer, and
can't hold a candle to Raymond Chandler.
I may read "I, The Jury," because it's famous, but beyond that, I doubt
I'll ever read Spillane again, except in short stories. I plan to read
everything Chandler ever wrote, and since there isn't much of it, I plan
to reread some of it over again.
"Kiss Me Deadly" sucks badly, with both the film and the song being
infinitely better than the book.
> It's
> wellknown film among "noir" and crime flick buffs who, like you, think
> it's a classic, to others who think it's silly.
What it is is a genre crossing film. It appears to be a hard-boiled,
gumshoe detective story, but at the very end, it suddenly turns into a
paranoid, cold war, sci-fi, horror story. Personally, I thought that
the ending was brilliant, and I'd say that it's one of the best
detective or sci-fi films ever made, except that there have been a lot
of excellent films made in both genres.
The image of the light shining out of the box was so effectively used at
the end that it was stolen for both Repo Man and Pulp Fiction, both of
which were also brilliant movies, and the image of the house burning up
was so effectively used that it was stolen for the Heavy Metal movie.
> It's my top 5 private
> detective films. A neat flick in almost in a catergory of its own.
Except that there are at least fifteen good detective films, probably
more, if you count the color ones. However, it is easily the best sci-
fi detective movie ever made. ;)
tomcervo
> Except that there are at least fifteen good detective films, probably
> more, if you count the color ones. �However, it is easily the best sci-
> fi detective movie ever made. �;)
Not just that. At a time when the movie PI was a step above Galahad,
here was a creep who used his slutty girl to fake evidence for divorce
cases. The real cops look like they can't wait for him to leave so
they can air out the room.
Yet he manages to rise to some kind of shabby honor by following the
case from Hell all the way.
Oh, and a 20-something Cloris Leachman.
william
> Except that there are at least fifteen good detective films, probably
> more, if you count the color ones. However, it is easily the best sci-
> fi detective movie ever made. ;)
Well, I think Alphaville is right next to it. By the way, I just re-
read all of Chandler and saw all the flicks made from the Philip
Marlowe books. Doing a comparison for my website. The guy is really
good even if we don't know who killed the chauffeur. I can't say
enough good things about the book, The Long Goodbye.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Voltronicus
> detective films. A neat flick in almost in a catergory of its own.
"Kiss Me Deadly" is a good detective movie but I don't know if I'd put
it in my top 5 (which changes with my mood).
My top 2 never change though:
1: The Maltese Falcon (Bogart version) - Hammett's best story and the
film sticks right to the book. This is in my top 5 movies of all
genres. A brilliant peice of film making.
2: The Thin Man - Another excellent adaption of Hammett's work.
David Oberman
>My top 2 never change though:
>1: The Maltese Falcon (Bogart version) - Hammett's best story and the
>film sticks right to the book. This is in my top 5 movies of all
>genres. A brilliant peice of film making.
Dwight Macdonald ranked this one right at the top, too. I think I do,
too.
Voltronicus
> Voltronicus <fwdi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >My top 2 never change though:
> >1: The Maltese Falcon (Bogart version) - Hammett's best story and the
> >film sticks right to the book. This is in my top 5 movies of all
> >genres. A brilliant peice of film making.
>
> Dwight Macdonald ranked this one right at the top, too. I think I do,
> too.
Not only isn't there a bad performance in the picture, the actors were
uniformly brilliant.
They did, however, downplay the relationship between Spade and his
partner's wife (Gladys George, who had high billing in the credits
but not too much screen time).
They also omitted Spade's recounting of "the Flitcraft parable", which
helped explain Spade's motivation somewhat. But that might have bogged
down the action somewhat and spoiled the film's excellent fast pace.
william
> They also omitted Spade's recounting of "the Flitcraft parable", which
> helped explain Spade's motivation somewhat. But that might have bogged
> down the action somewhat and spoiled the film's excellent fast pace.
The Flitcraft Parable is my favorite part of the book and it's
probably because it was left out of the movie. Spade is somewhat
different in the book but it's closer to Spade than any film got to
Philip Marlowe. It is the best PI film and a great film in any
category. Also, very close to how I feel about the book.
William
www.williamahearn.com
David Matthews
I liked The Flicraft Parable as well, I guess we've all had that urge to
just disappear sometimes. Another part of the book that that isn't in the
movie is the final chapter where Effie his secretary cold-shoulder's him
because of what he has done. Probably a wise decision to leave them out of
the movie, what works in print doesn't always work on the screen.
Dave in Toronto
william
> I liked The Flicraft Parable as well, I guess we've all had that urge to
> just disappear sometimes. Another part of the book that that isn't in the
> movie is the final chapter where Effie his secretary cold-shoulder's him
> because of what he has done. Probably a wise decision to leave them out of
> the movie, what works in print doesn't always work on the screen.
>
How do you follow "The stuff that dreams are made of" with anything
but "huh?" It would have detracted from the story and the story was
about the story and not about Spade. He was just a device. So I think
Huston really nailed it. The 1931 version really suffers from not
knowing when to stop.
William
www.williamahearn.com
David Matthews
True but "The stuff that dreams are made of" isn't in the book, just the
movie. Good ending nevertheless.
Dave in Toronto
william
> True but "The stuff that dreams are made of" isn't in the book, just the
> movie. Good ending nevertheless.
>
Yes, but then again it articulated succinctly what it was all about. I
don't think because it wasn't in the book that somehow lessens the
film. That's why I love that adaptation so much. Most of the liberties
serve the story.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Voltronicus
It's difficult to imagine any ending but the one filmed, it's great.
"Falcon" is a perfect movie, I can't imagine anything that could be
done to improve it.
I'm sure if it was made today, there would be graphic sex scenes
between Sam and all three females (Iva, Effie and, of course, Brigid)
in the cast, not to mention what would be going on with Joel and
Wilmer (and possibly Gutman)!
tomcervo
At least one source says that the scene wasn't working and they were
looking for a line. In the end Bogart suggested it.
tomcervo
One of the complaints of the suits watching the rushes was that the
picture was moving too slow.
tomcervo
> On Jul 25, 8:48 pm, Bluuuuue Rajah <Bluuuuue@Rajah.> wrote:
>
> > Except that there are at least fifteen good detective films, probably
> > more, if you count the color ones. �However, it is easily the best sci-
> > fi detective movie ever made. �;)
>
> Well, I think Alphaville is right next to it. By the way, I just re-
> read all of Chandler and saw all the flicks made from the Philip
> Marlowe books. Doing a comparison for my website. The guy is really
> good even if we don't know who killed the chauffeur.
Unless you're joking, you need to see the two versions, often shown on
TCM. Everything is explained in the original, but Hawks decided to
shoot more Bogey/Bacall stuff. He cut the explanation scenes because,
as he noted, "No one cared".
william
> Unless you're joking, you need to see the two versions, often shown on
> TCM. Everything is explained in the original, but Hawks decided to
> shoot more Bogey/Bacall stuff. He cut the explanation scenes because,
> as he noted, "No one cared".
I did see both versions. And I read Chandler's letters. And I read
Hiney's biography. And it's clear: during production of the 1945
version, the question of who killed Owen Taylor came up and a telegram
was sent to Chandler asking him to clear it up. Chandler admitted he
didn't know who killed the chauffeur or whether he committed suicide.
That is history and that is fact. The scene in the DA's office in the
1945 version doesn't answer the question because it couldn't. I have
no idea how this idea persists that some version of the movie made
clear what was not in the book. Chandler missed it, his editors missed
it, the reviewers missed it and most readers missed it but it became
an issue when it became a script. Raymond Chandler didn't know who
killed the chauffeur and that is gospel. Frankly, I don't think it's
all that important. Maybe it would be in an Agatha Christie mystery
but it isn't in a Raymond Chandler novel.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Stacia
> On Jul 23, 12:41 pm, "David Matthews" <dmatthew...@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
> > I didn't like it too much and that stupid Greek Va-Va-Voom guy drove me
> > crazy, thank God he got offed early in the movie.
Nick Dennis is a good actor, maybe a bit too good in the role of
Nick. He's clearly supposed to be irritating, especially in that one
extreme close-up, and I like how it turns the sympathetic and soon-to-
be-dead-friend convention on its ear. But a little of Nickie goes a
LONG way.
I love this film. Every time I see it, I love it more. Paul
Stewart is such an amazing actor, Ralph Meeker is terrific, the
atmosphere is perfect. The shadows, the heat, the night, the
stairways, the clipped professional voice on the answering machine,
it's all wonderful. People laugh at the dingus turning out to be
something way over-the-top, even silly, but I think it fits nicely.
> Sheesh! This comes from a hoser, who was a charter member of the
> MacKenzie Bros. Fan(boy?) Club, eh!
Towel off, wethead.
Stacia
Stacia
> I did see both versions. And I read Chandler's letters. And I read
> Hiney's biography. And it's clear: during production of the 1945
> version, the question of who killed Owen Taylor came up and a telegram
> was sent to Chandler asking him to clear it up. Chandler admitted he
> didn't know who killed the chauffeur or whether he committed suicide.
> That is history and that is fact. The scene in the DA's office in the
> 1945 version doesn't answer the question because it couldn't. I have
> no idea how this idea persists that some version of the movie made
> clear what was not in the book.
I think people misremember or imagine that those added scenes to
allegedly tie everything together explain it all. Honestly, I don't
remember much about the facts of the plot, it's simply the experience
of that film that washes over me every time. I go into each new
viewing thinking, "Today's the day - this is when I pay attention to
who's doing what!" That's completely forgotten within 15 minutes,
tops.
Stacia
william
Honestly, I don't
> remember much about the facts of the plot, it's simply the experience
> of that film that washes over me every time.
Which is what Chandler's books are like too. In that regard, they got
that much right.
William
www.williamahearn.com
David
(in article
<3eb9d0f2-4ccf-4f21...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>):
Altho not specifically identified by Chandler or the movies, the implication
is that Geiger's lover (the man who also killed Brody) killed the chauffeur
because the chauffeur killed Geiger - because Geiger took the pictures of
Carmen, who he (the chauffeur) loved.
David
(in article
<d76c44dc-7833-4efc...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>):
The movie ending is outstanding - but the book ending (which I won't divulge
for those who haven't read the book) is much more cynical, and more in line
with the character of Spade and the story.
william
\
> Altho not specifically identified by Chandler or the movies, the implication
> is that Geiger's lover (the man who also killed Brody) killed the chauffeur
> because the chauffeur killed Geiger - because Geiger took the pictures of
> Carmen, who he (the chauffeur) loved.
There's an even better case against Brody. But that's not the point.
Chandler missed it. It was his first book and he cannibalized a few
short stories to write it and he made a mistake. There's even a case
for Owen Taylor's suicide. You want to believe this or that that's
just Jake with me. But you're creating the belief. Chandler missed it.
William
www.williamahearn.com
David Matthews
"Stacia" <glitte...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7d7a07aa-fe05-4299...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Me too. At the end of the movie I've usually forgotten why Marlowe was
hired in the first place.
Dave in Toronto
David Matthews
It may well have been that Owen Taylor had to die for plot purposes but
Chandler just forgot to provide the motive, heck there was a mystery story
writer - (forget his name but British I think)- noted more for his style and
wit than for his plots who once had a book of his published and printed then
afterwards realized that he had forgotten to solve the crime. He said that
apparently no-one noticed - or perhaps no-one cared.
Dave in Toronto
David Oberman
>Altho not specifically identified by Chandler or the movies, the implication
>is that Geiger's lover (the man who also killed Brody) killed the chauffeur
>because the chauffeur killed Geiger - because Geiger took the pictures of
>Carmen, who he (the chauffeur) loved.
'Twas Beauty -- Beauty killed the chauffeur.
____
The very idea of institution--hence of the
arbitrariness of the sign--is unthinkable
before the possibility of writing and outside
its horizon.
-- Derrida
tomcervo
Funny. It's easy to think that Eddie Mars was tying up a loose end--or
Ace was running low on amusement.
Hawks was right--poor Owen.
tomcervo
> On Jul 23, 2:45 pm, Opry phantom <xanthus...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 23, 12:41 pm, "David Matthews" <dmatthew...@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> > > I didn't like it too much and that stupid Greek Va-Va-Voom guy drove me
> > > crazy, thank God he got offed early in the movie.
>
> � Nick Dennis is a good actor, maybe a bit too good in the role of
> Nick. �He's clearly supposed to be irritating, especially in that one
> extreme close-up, and I like how it turns the sympathetic and soon-to-
> be-dead-friend convention on its ear. �But a little of Nickie goes a
> LONG way.
> � I love this film. �Every time I see it, I love it more. �Paul
> Stewart is such an amazing actor, Ralph Meeker is terrific, the
> atmosphere is perfect. �The shadows, the heat, the night, the
> stairways, the clipped professional voice on the answering machine,
> it's all wonderful. �People laugh at the dingus turning out to be
> something way over-the-top, even silly, but I think it fits nicely.
The radio play-by-play during the killing, and Jack Elam's face when
he comes in the bedroom.
tomcervo
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:36:22 -0500, Voltronicus wrote
> (in article
>
> - Show quoted text -
An old Esquire profile of great detectives extended that ending,
saying that Sam Spade's cause of death was gunshot wound inflicted by
his morning visitor.
endy9
-snip-
> Nick Dennis is a good actor, maybe a bit too good in the role of
> Nick. He's clearly supposed to be irritating, especially in that one
> extreme close-up, and I like how it turns the sympathetic and soon-to-
> be-dead-friend convention on its ear. But a little of Nickie goes a
> LONG way.
> I love this film. Every time I see it, I love it more. Paul
> Stewart is such an amazing actor, Ralph Meeker is terrific, the
> atmosphere is perfect. The shadows, the heat, the night, the
> stairways, the clipped professional voice on the answering machine,
> it's all wonderful. People laugh at the dingus turning out to be
> something way over-the-top, even silly, but I think it fits nicely.
>
One of my favorite parts was Meeker taking out one of the thugs (off camera)
while the other thug turns white from fear watching whatever exotic martial
arts he did on him. I love "showing less is more" directing.
Jim Beaver
"David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:6eugcaF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Pjk" <peter_k...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:4c3debf2-57cb-450d...@1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 24, 9:29 pm, "endy9" <endymio...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Voltronicus" <fwdi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:6fa3a13a-f2c2-4860...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Even though it strayed from Spillane's novel, I feel "Kiss Me Deadly",
>> > starring Ralph Meeker as Mike Hammer is the most effective filming of
>> > Spillane's work.
>> > This film is under-rated classic film noir.
>>
>> I saw this last year for the first time and was mesmerized. Been trying
>> to
>> decide when it's been long enough for me to sit and watch it again.
>> Wonderful viewing experience.
>
> The other Spillane film I like is Ring of Fear, partly because of the
> odd cast: Mickey himself, Clyde Beatty, Pat O'Brien, and a really
> creepy Sean McClory. Kenneth Tobey is hidden away in there, too.
>
> Pjk
>
>
> RING OF FEAR_ is an oddity all right - Interesting to see Clyde Beatty at
> work, I guess the humane society would have something to say about his act
> to-day
>
Produced (uncredited) by John Wayne.
Jim Beaver
Bluuuuue Rajah
news:7d7a07aa-fe05-4299...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
That also happens to me in Bogart version of The Big Sleep. The first
time I saw the film, I didn't notice, because I was too busy being swept
along by the flow and the mood, but the second time I watched it, even
though I was still blown away, when it ended, I was painfully aware that
I had no clue what had just happened. This isn't so bad for me when I
read the books, because I control the pace, not a director, and because
Chandler's books are as complex as books that classified as literature.
I've read Big Sleep, Lady in the Lake and The Long Goodbye, managed to
follow all the details and characters in all three, even spotting a
couple of flaws in the latter. Of course, my record is completely
ruined by Farewell My Lovely, the first one I read, from which I
retained precisely nothing. I'm rereading it now, and it's coming back
to me as the story unfolds, but still I can't see ahead.
I read that one before I knew how important Chandler was, and how well
crafted (and even deep) his stories are, and that his stuff was anything
more than enjoyable trash and a guilty pleasure. Now I know better, so
I can turn on the circuits in my brain to make myself pay attention, and
that improves my retention.
Bluuuuue Rajah
news:0001HW.C4B160D3...@newsgroups.comcast.net:
I love it, "Just Jake"! :) I'm gonna use that as my next sock puppet,
as soon as this one is worn out.
william
> I read that one before I knew how important Chandler was, and how well
> crafted (and even deep) his stories are, and that his stuff was anything
> more than enjoyable trash and a guilty pleasure. Now I know better, so
> I can turn on the circuits in my brain to make myself pay attention, and
> that improves my retention.
Not flog my website but I just re-read all of Chandler's novels and
compared them -- and the character of Marlowe -- to the films. Even
two early films based on Marlowe books that used other PIs in the
films. I also used his letters, a biography and other books about
Chandler's stay in Hollywood for information about how the films ended
up as they did. If you're curious about Marlowe as a character, you
might take a look.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Bluuuuue Rajah
>
> "william" <willia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3eb9d0f2-4ccf-4f21-ac2c-
499682...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com.
> ..
It may be that he didn't solve the crime, but nobody says that's a
requirement of a murder mystery. As any cop can tell you, it's a
depressing fact of life that crimes are occasionally unsolved.
(Spoiler ahead)
I was struck by the very end of the book of The Big Sleep, where
Chandler just gets into his car and drives away. The killer is never
turned over to the cops or otherwise punished, and Chandler just accepts
a weak promise from her sister to put her into a home for the retarded,
and never goes back to verify it. Throughout all of his stuff I've
read, Marlowe has a very sharp nose for a weak lie, and is never, ever
deceived by them. If anybody does any deceiving, it's Marlowe, and not
the suspects.
However, I thought his abandonment of the case fit perfectly with
Marlowe's cynical philosophy on life. He's not a cop, he doesn't have
to behave like one, and if he gets himself into a situation where
everything he could do would only make things worse, I can imagine him
doing nothing, just like he did at that point.
I've heard Chandler's stories referred to as "depressed detective"
stories, which I can see. I see a sublimated rage, unlike Spillane's,
which are a more aggressive rage. Combine depression with cynicism and
a sublimated rage, and I think you can easily get existential moments.
I didn't find it implausible for Marlowe to do something possibly out of
character, because it was existential. For me, that pivotal moment
helped to define him.
The one thing that might worry me would be for Marlowe to possibly get
caught up in the same kind of situation like Lt. Degarmot and Mildred
Haveland, where he let someone get away with one murder, so several more
follow. That may be why there was never another such ending.
Maybe his editors or fans didn't like it, or maybe he thought it was a
bad idea, as he looked back on it. For all his cynicism and rage,
Marlowe is still a moral character, but letting Carmen get away with
murder was an amoral choice.
(End spoiler)
william
> Maybe his editors or fans didn't like it, or maybe he thought it was a
> bad idea, as he looked back on it. For all his cynicism and rage,
> Marlowe is still a moral character, but letting Carmen get away with
> murder was an amoral choice.
>
Not the only time it's happened in a Chandler novel and a similar
situation arises in The High Window. Marlowe is not a cop and doesn't
see himself as one. His duty is to protect his client and in the
situation you refer to it is General Sternwood. Marlowe has no proof
that Carmen killed anyone. He deduces it. What does he take to the
police? While you say his decision is amoral when in fact it's
ethical. He protected his client and that's what $25 a day plus
expenses gets you.
William
www.williamahearn.com
tomcervo
I recall distantly that Marlowe (as Chandler thought of him) was best
personified by Robert Montgomery--who made his own choice, that didn't
really work. True?
tomcervo
Isn't Carmen nuts?
If she's institutionalized by the family, that's the same result as a
trial with the high-priced lawyer arguing the insanity defence that
the Sternwoods can well afford--minus a sleazy six weeks on the front
pages, dragging the General's name into the mud.
william
> I recall distantly that Marlowe (as Chandler thought of him) was best
> personified by Robert Montgomery--who made his own choice, that didn't
> really work. True?
I don't claim to be a Chandler scholar so all I'm going on is what is
in his published letters. Chandler wasn't a particularly likeable guy
and if you read his letters you see how he goes back and forth on
various topics. For example, he sent Dick Powell a congratulatory
telegram when "Murder, My Sweet" opened and then trashed him -- and
Alan Ladd -- as phoney tough guys when Bogart appeared in "The Big
Sleep." As for "Lady In The Lake," Chandler worked on the script for
12 weeks and then quit saying the concept would never work but I don't
recall him writing anything specifically about Robert Montgomery.
Also, after leaving the work on "Lady," he went into a funk and didn't
work on another film until the disasterous "Strangers on A Train"
script that Hitchcock tossed and that was 1951. In 1953 he wrote a
letter saying that if he could pick someone to play Marlowe it would
be Cary Grant. So I don't really think any Chandler statement about
who was the best Marlowe is reliable since he was kind of caprious in
his opinions.
William
www.williamahearn.com
tomcervo
Well, that's the drift: Marlowe is a gentleman who's been to a good
school, as were Bogart and Montgomery. Bogart carried over some of Sam
Spade, Hammett's idealized detective--Hammett's idealized Hammett, who
finished public high school and learned about life from life. On the
whole I'd prefer Spade, a man who likes to talk.
Stacia
> That also happens to me in Bogart version of The Big Sleep.
I wasn't clear, but I did mean "The Big Sleep." So easy to just
float along with the film and trust that you'll end up on dry land.
> This isn't so bad for me when I
> read the books, because I control the pace, not a director, and because
> Chandler's books are as complex as books that classified as literature.
Chandler's book "The Big Sleep" is quite good, but it's been over a
decade since I've read it and I just cannot remember if the plot was
more coherent than the film. I more recently re-read "The Little
Sister" and loved it more the second time through; I find Chandler
painfully, almost heartbreakingly adept at written description. For a
long while I had a quote from "The Little Sister" in my Usenet .sig,
and received one frothy complaint from a ramp-f poster who thought it
was so terrible that I must have written it myself. I wish.
Stacia
william
> Isn't Carmen nuts?
> If she's institutionalized by the family, that's the same result as a
> trial with the high-priced lawyer arguing the insanity defence that
> the Sternwoods can well afford--minus a sleazy six weeks on the front
> pages, dragging the General's name into the mud.
One could say that yes but it kind of misses the point of how Marlowe
operates. In The Long Goodbye, his client is guily of murder (this is
hard to do without spoilers) and Marlowe discovers that while with
another person (who also has a vested interest). Marlowe says "let the
police do their own dirty work," meaning let them solve this crime.
That's not Marlowe's job as he sees it. Marlowe is far more
complicated than Sam Spade. Marlowe appears in 6 novels, Spade only
one. The novel The Big Sleep is way different than the film with
Bogart who plays a character closer to Spade than to Marlowe.
William
www.williamahearn
tomcervo
I think Hammett was more obsessed with the detective workings than
Chandler. Perhaps it was a carryover from the Black Mask days, but he
seems to feel that there must be a CRIME and that it must be SOLVED by
the detective. He seems aware of this when Sam Spade sends Brigid
over, to Effie's dismay and disgust; she would have let her go, and so
might we, but Spade doesn't want anyone to think he'll play the sap.
william
>
> I think Hammett was more obsessed with the detective workings than
> Chandler. Perhaps it was a carryover from the Black Mask days, but he
> seems to feel that there must be a CRIME and that it must be SOLVED by
> the detective. He seems aware of this when Sam Spade sends Brigid
> over, to Effie's dismay and disgust; she would have let her go, and so
> might we, but Spade doesn't want anyone to think he'll play the sap.
We would? I'm going to be going back into the book again because two
things remain that I haven't figured out and it's gotten even more
confusing after seeing the three film versions recently. The first is,
when does Spade figure out who killed Archer and when does he know --
if he does -- that The Falcon is a fake. To me, Spade is much more of
a device than Marlowe and I don't mean that in any disparaging way.
It's part of the beauty of the book that Archer's killing is a
submerged MacGuffin and it ain't washing around in the surf off Lido
pier. Marlowe was a crime solver only to protect a client.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Bluuuuue Rajah
news:2317e6d7-95bb-4b2b...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 30, 5:53 pm, Bluuuuue Rajah <Bluuuuue@Rajah.> wrote:
>
>> That also happens to me in Bogart version of The Big Sleep.
>
> I wasn't clear, but I did mean "The Big Sleep." So easy to just
> float along with the film and trust that you'll end up on dry land.
>
>> This isn't so bad for me when I
>> read the books, because I control the pace, not a director, and
>> because Chandler's books are as complex as books that classified as
>> literature.
>
> Chandler's book "The Big Sleep" is quite good, but it's been over a
> decade since I've read it and I just cannot remember if the plot was
> more coherent than the film. I more recently re-read "The Little
> Sister" and loved it more the second time through; I find Chandler
> painfully, almost heartbreakingly adept at written description.
You can say that again, Kitten, because his descriptive skills are no
less than genius caliber, although I don't know why you should say
"heartbreakingly." Detailed description is perfectly suited to
detective novels, since we were all exposed to solve-them-yourself
mysteries when we were children, and we know how important detail
becomes, in that framework.
Chandler's similies are also legendary. :D I can't remember what was
the context, but toward the end of The Long Goodbye, Chandler made some
coment about well crafted similies, which I thought was a brilliant and
playful moment of self-reference. And in Farewell My Lovely, I just
noticed a few lines where the police Lieutenant repeats the description
of Marlowe given by old Mrs. Florian, which I also thought was a playful
moment of self-reference.
But Chandler isn't just imagery, because his dialogue, characters and
tone are equally brilliant. If he's the guy who invented the noir
traditions of corrupt wealth, villainous women and the city as a
character (which he probably didn't), then his themes are spectacular as
well.
I'm convinced that the guy deserved a Pulitzer. :O
Bluuuuue Rajah
08ac0a...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 30, 8:20 pm, Bluuuuue Rajah <Bluuuuue@Rajah.> wrote:
>
>> Maybe his editors or fans didn't like it, or maybe he thought it was a
>> bad idea, as he looked back on it. For all his cynicism and rage,
>> Marlowe is still a moral character, but letting Carmen get away with
>> murder was an amoral choice.
>>
> Not the only time it's happened in a Chandler novel and a similar
> situation arises in The High Window. Marlowe is not a cop and doesn't
> see himself as one. His duty is to protect his client and in the
> situation you refer to it is General Sternwood. Marlowe has no proof
> that Carmen killed anyone. He deduces it.
And then confronts Carmen's sister with it, who admits it.
william
> > Not the only time it's happened in a Chandler novel and a similar
> > situation arises in The High Window. Marlowe is not a cop and doesn't
> > see himself as one. His duty is to protect his client and in the
> > situation you refer to it is General Sternwood. Marlowe has no proof
> > that Carmen killed anyone. He deduces it.
>
> And then confronts Carmen's sister with it, who admits it.
Granted. But so what? Marlowe would never go to the police and turn in
a client unless he witnessed the crime and had no choice. This comes
up time and again in Chandler's novels. Read The Little Sister or The
Long Goodbye. Same thing happens there. Marlowe is ethical but not
moral. He's not a cop. One could describe him as a "fixer" since
that's the role he plays in The Big Sleep.
William
www.williamahearn.com
tomcervo
> On Jul 31, 10:06 am, tomcervo <tomce...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think Hammett was more obsessed with the detective workings than
> > Chandler. Perhaps it was a carryover from the Black Mask days, but he
> > seems to feel that there must be a CRIME and that it must be SOLVED by
> > the detective. He seems aware of this when Sam Spade sends Brigid
> > over, to Effie's dismay and disgust; she would have let her go, and so
> > might we, but Spade doesn't want anyone to think he'll play the sap.
>
> We would? I'm going to be going back into the book again because two
> things remain that I haven't figured out and it's gotten even more
> confusing after seeing the three film versions recently. The first is,
> when does Spade figure out who killed Archer
Which is the REAL mystery, which he must solve--being a suspect
himself. All the while the antics are going on over the bird, he's
watching the suspects and figuring out who did it.
>and when does he know --
> if he does -- that The Falcon is a fake.
It's the thing that started the whole mess that he's in--I don't think
he cares much about the Knights of St. John.
>To me, Spade is much more of
> a device than Marlowe and I don't mean that in any disparaging way.
> It's part of the beauty of the book that Archer's killing is a
> submerged MacGuffin and it ain't washing around in the surf off Lido
> pier. Marlowe was a crime solver only to protect a client.
"Device"?
william
> It's the thing that started the whole mess that he's in--I don't think
> he cares much about the Knights of St. John.
But he does get Effie to contact her uncle, or whatever, who teaches
history at a college to look into it. It isn't in the Huston version
but it is used in Satan Met A Lady. Don't remember what if anything
was the answer in the book. One of the reasons I want to reread it.
>
> >To me, Spade is much more of
> > a device than Marlowe and I don't mean that in any disparaging way.
> > It's part of the beauty of the book that Archer's killing is a
> > submerged MacGuffin and it ain't washing around in the surf off Lido
> > pier. Marlowe was a crime solver only to protect a client.
>
> "Device"?
I know I'll never be able to explain exactly what I mean but here
goes. Marlowe is a complex character and as a result the films made
from the books -- while they may be good films -- are never a real
rendering of the book. With Spade you have a lot more leeway and the
reason that Huston's film is so much better than the first two
versions is that Spade becomes part of the plot rather than the center
of the film (and at the same time being the focal point). Spade is
blended into the film but not as a hero. He's our way into the plot
and seems to become as involved as anyone else. It's a much different
way of looking at a PI in films of that era and that's way I think it
became a classic. Charlie Chan, The Falcon, and hundreds of other PIs
always played the hero. Huston got the book. The others got the plot.
William
www.williamahearn.com
tomcervo
You must know the story--true or not--that Huston took the book,
redpenciled parts he wanted cut, gave it to a secretary and told her
to type it up in screenplay format: dialogue and minimal description
of the action. Then a producer saw it and raved about the great job
Huston did on the screenplay. I don't think I believe it, but I'd like
to.
I do believe the Huston quote about previous adopters of the novel:
"Assholes, idiots."
Hammett didn't have the hero/antihero narrate, though he does in other
novels. The Op is supposed to be a cypher, but we know a lot about him
because he narrates; all we know of Spade is what he does and says.
Hard to believe that Hammett was paid by the word--he used so few.
Just Me
> So I don't really think any Chandler statement about
> who was the best Marlowe is reliable since he was kind of caprious in
> his opinions.
Mitchum. Absolutely the best, in *Farewell My Lovely*, hands down.
Where Marlowe had to drill Charlotte Rampling at the end . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVCRFM6OcqM
I was living not ten blocks from that nuthouse or whorehouse, whatever
it became in transformation from novel to screen; Echo Park is where
it was, the place Marlowe was held captive. That movie was about to
become my life at the time I saw it, first run in '74 or '75, at a
theatre in Beverly Hills--where was it--at the foot of Rodeo Drive on
Wilshire?
Yeah, that's as I remember it anyway, and like I say, it was a
nuthouse I was living in, which is just a nice way to say "L.A."
A technicolor film noir fantasy memoir of those burnt umber days under
a raw sienna sun, and a hum of mercury streetlamps at night; it was as
if she had materialized out of a rosy glow in the fog, as Aphrodite
leapt fully formed from the brow of a downtown Beverly Hills traffic
light . . .
*Gloria*
By J.P. David
Soon to appear on a Weblog near you.
More Charlotte Rampling . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfSdXK5sMM4&NR=1
About Raymond and Sissy Chandler . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usLo5LyjLNU&feature=related
--
JM
william
> On Jul 30, 8:35 pm, william <williamahe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > So I don't really think any Chandler statement about
> > who was the best Marlowe is reliable since he was kind of caprious in
> > his opinions.
>
> Mitchum. Absolutely the best, in *Farewell My Lovely*, hands down.
> Where Marlowe had to drill Charlotte Rampling at the end . . .
>
the absolutely worst adaptation of a Chandler novel that is out there.
It is the worst portrayal of Marlowe, that's for sure.
http://www.williamahearn.com/farewellmy.html
Mitchum is the walking dead and what they did to the character was
beyond belief. Do you know that in all the Marlowe books he shoots
only one person and that's in The Big Sleep? Aaargh, what a dreadful
movie.
William
www.williamahearn.com
william
>
> Hammett didn't have the hero/antihero narrate, though he does in other
> novels. The Op is supposed to be a cypher, but we know a lot about him
> because he narrates; all we know of Spade is what he does and says.
> Hard to believe that Hammett was paid by the word--he used so few.
There is also a story of how he carried the book on the set. I have no
idea about the truth of any of this. What I really love about Hammett
is that he didn't turn Sam Spade into a series. Sam Spade and the
Secret Staircase, Sam Spade and the Locked Room and all of that. It's
a novel, not a PI story.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Just Me
> On Aug 1, 2:37 am, Just Me <jpd...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Jul 30, 8:35 pm, william <williamahe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > So I don't really think any Chandler statement about
> > > who was the best Marlowe is reliable since he was kind of caprious in
> > > his opinions.
>
> > Mitchum. Absolutely the best, in *Farewell My Lovely*, hands down.
> > Where Marlowe had to drill Charlotte Rampling at the end . . .
>
> In my book -- or at least what I've written about it -- that film is
> the absolutely worst adaptation of a Chandler novel that is out there.
> It is the worst portrayal of Marlowe, that's for sure.
Spoken as if we'd never seen Elliot Gould in *The Long Goodbye*? Or
that godawful, hackneyed, faceless approach to *Lady in the Lake* with
Robert Montgomery!
Nothing's "for sure" except that "there's no accounting for taste."
>
> http://www.williamahearn.com/farewellmy.html
>
> Mitchum is the walking dead . . .
Best thing about it! That was Chandler's Marlowe to a 'T' as anyone
who's ever really read him and got him knows. And the only actor
that ever captured the character anywhere near so brilliantly as
Mitchum was like, Steve Martin, in "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid". But
that's just, you know, like, "in my book". ;-)
> and what they did to the character was
> beyond belief. Do you know that in all the Marlowe books he shoots
> only one person and that's in The Big Sleep?
As to that I can't say on account of how I never finished reading the
last ten pages or so--don't recall exactly why I'd got that unbearably
bored or disgusted with it toward the end, but if in the movie if it
took something like filling that deliciously dirty killer broad full
of lead, then--Hooray for Hollywood! :-)
--
JM
http://jpdavid.blogspot.com/
http://bobbisoxsnatchers.blogspot.com
> Aaargh, what a dreadful
> movie.
Nonsense.
william
>
> Spoken as if we'd never seen Elliot Gould in *The Long Goodbye*? Or
> that godawful, hackneyed, faceless approach to *Lady in the Lake* with
> Robert Montgomery!
I've seen them all and if we're talking about faithfulness of
character -- which we were -- Robert Montgomery's Marlowe is closer
than Bogart's and Altman's The Long Goodbye is a brilliant adaptation
of the novel by Leigh Brackett. It just doesn't register with fans
lost in hard-boiled cliches.
>
> Nothing's "for sure" except that "there's no accounting for taste."
>
And we have substantially different palates, I guess.
William