MASH (1970)

[calvin]

I didn't much care for this in 1970, and liked it only
marginally better on second viewing today. Visually,
the Last Supper shot was a forgotten delight, but
dwelling on the tableau too long detracted from it.
In general the visuals of the military camp were well
done, though.

To me the best line, which no doubt everyone remembers
was "His will be done."

The elaborate gags were amusing, but the operating tent
scenes were not. I know the blood and gore were fake,
but I couldn't look at it anyway, and the main thing I took
away from the movie was what I already knew about,
the arrogance of surgeons.

The football game was absurdly out of place, and a
blight on the movie. It didn't fit logically (eg. where did
those uniforms come from?) and was wildly out of
keeping with the movie's production design, looking
like it was filmed in America. When the players arrived
back in camp on the military vehicles it made one want
to jeer.

I know what the movie's effect was supposed to be,
and it must have worked well, to have spawned the
12 season TV series, but I've seen many better anti-war
movies.

[T987654321]

Don't like the film at all. The series was so much better.

[Sol L. Siegel]

T987654321 <qwrt...@gmail.com> wrote in news:08409f65-d53b-42c2-ae7b-
094feb...@googlegroups.com:

> Don't like the film at all. The series was so much better.

I recall seeing the film sometime ca 1990 and being surprised at how
well it had aged - for me at least. I suppose it was the portrayal
of war (and everyone who saw it in 1970 knew that it was really
about the Vietnam War, not Korea) as total anarchy, as opposed to
bloody chaos, that made it click. It was certainly what sold it
to the audiences that flocked to it; it was the only real hit
Altman ever had.

How interesting that this and "Patton", which came so much closer
to people's idea of a "traditional" war movie, were so successful
in the same year.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[leno...@yahoo.com]

Robert Altman, not surprisingly, couldn't stand the series. He said the movie surgeons would have "chewed up and spit out those TV clowns."

He also said: "the television version of MASH is the most insidious kind of propaganda. I think it's terrible. It says - no matter what platitudes they use - that the guys with the slanted eyes are the bad guys."

I don't quite get that. However, I admit I had to squirm when I watched Margaret Cho's "I'm The One That I Want" and she pointed out how, in the TV series, Korean characters (and Asian characters in general) were barely visible! In Korea! I mean, why couldn't ONE of the major characters have been Korean?

It's probably here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc6mLwOa2Ig

- but I can't watch it right now.


Lenona.

[Gil Gamesh]

> I mean, why couldn't ONE of the major characters have been Korean?

Uh, because the show was about a US Army medical unit?

[madar...@gmail.com]

M*A*S*H and PATTON were released as a double bill sometime in 1971 or 1972. I remember seeing them together. I saw M*A*S*H many times in theaters back then and enjoyed it each time. I haven't seen it in many years, though, so I don't know how well it holds up. I never watched a complete episode of the TV series.

PATTON, by focusing on Patton's "madman" tendencies, had something of a thematic link to M*A*S*H. It's not like pairing M*A*S*H with THE GREEN BERETS.

[Michael OConnor]

> How interesting that this and "Patton", which came so much closer
> to people's idea of a "traditional" war movie, were so successful
> in the same year.

I rather think the two movies are polar opposites, in that Patton was
an old school glorification of war and the men who fought it, while
MASH was a black comedy about war, which was new wave and
revolutionary in the bawdy humor, and also the sound editing with the
multiple microphones. On a larger level, although neither film was
about Vietnam, and both were set a generation or more before Vietnam,
both films were viewed at the time as Pro-War (Patton) and Anti-War
(MASH), with respect to the war in Vietnam. For the most part, the
under 30 crowd at the time preferred MASH, while the over 30 crowd
preferred Patton. I liked both films, although today, both seem
somewhat dated, and the humor in MASH seems rather PG-13 today
compared to the movies which came along afterwards (such as Animal
House) that were inspired by MASH and pushed the language and nudity
and sexual humor envelope further.

[bermuda999]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:20:29 AM UTC-4, leno...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Robert Altman, not surprisingly, couldn't stand the series. He said the movie surgeons would have "chewed up and spit out those TV clowns."
>
> He also said: "the television version of MASH is the most insidious kind of propaganda. I think it's terrible. It says - no matter what platitudes they use - that the guys with the slanted eyes are the bad guys."

The TV Show seemed to me to go out of its way to say the opposite - that South Koreans were our poker buddies and even North Koreans deserved the benefit of the doubt (or even deserved being hidden as South Korean doctors).

> I don't quite get that. However, I admit I had to squirm when I watched Margaret Cho's "I'm The One That I Want" and she pointed out how, in the TV series, Korean characters (and Asian characters in general) were barely visible! In Korea! I mean, why couldn't ONE of the major characters have been Korean?

Like all the Moroccan, Sicilian, and Belgian major characters in Patton? The flaw, if valid, was that the series used "Other Asians" (Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese) as Koreans and then even re-used them in other roles in other episodes of the show.

[leno...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, May 17, 2013 6:21:47 AM UTC-4, bermuda999 wrote:
> On Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:20:29 AM UTC-4, leno...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Robert Altman, not surprisingly, couldn't stand the series. He said the movie surgeons would have "chewed up and spit out those TV clowns."
>
> >
>
> > He also said: "the television version of MASH is the most insidious kind of propaganda. I think it's terrible. It says - no matter what platitudes they use - that the guys with the slanted eyes are the bad guys."
>
>
>
> The TV Show seemed to me to go out of its way to say the opposite - that South Koreans were our poker buddies and even North Koreans deserved the benefit of the doubt (or even deserved being hidden as South Korean doctors).

Exactly. As I said, I didn't get Altman's remark.

Lenona.

[Adam H. Kerman]

What if you took the movie as a work-place comedy set in the Korean War
and not as an anti-war movie? Would you enjoy it more?

I agree with you that the football game is out of place, but it still made
me laugh.

[Mack A. Damia]

I'm trying to recall what was "out of place" about the football game.
Working in combat support is boring, and troops will do anything to
break the monotony. We used to go into Saigon and pay the local boys
to have rickshaw races (money to the winner) after which we would
relax our weary bones (flex, too) at Magic Fingers Massage Parlour.
Don't remember any football matches, but baseball and volleyball games
were fairly common.

--

[calvin]

If they had played football in their army clothes
in the dirt and the mud it would have been fine;
but the movie suddenly switched to a pristine
high school football field in middle America (to
all appearances) with everyone wearing proper
fitting football uniforms. I've never seen any more
of a glaring violation of a movie's production
design, and from Altman of all people. And where
did they acquire the football star? He wasn't in
the movie up until then, but the script miraculouisly
conjured him when it needed a gimmick.

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 14:26:58 -0700 (PDT), calvin
<cri...@windstream.net> wrote:

>> I'm trying to recall what was "out of place" about the football game.
>> Working in combat support is boring, and troops will do anything to
>> break the monotony. �We used to go into Saigon and pay the local boys
>> to have rickshaw races (money to the winner) after which we would
>> relax our weary bones (flex, too) at Magic Fingers Massage Parlour.
>> Don't remember any football matches, but baseball and volleyball games
>> were fairly common.
>
>If they had played football in their army clothes
>in the dirt and the mud it would have been fine;
>but the movie suddenly switched to a pristine
>high school football field in middle America (to
>all appearances) with everyone wearing proper
>fitting football uniforms. I've never seen any more
>of a glaring violation of a movie's production
>design, and from Altman of all people. And where
>did they acquire the football star? He wasn't in
>the movie up until then, but the script miraculouisly
>conjured him when it needed a gimmick.

Well, he was in the book. And there were college football stars in
the war.

--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.

[calvin]

On May 20, 7:44 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 14:26:58 -0700 (PDT), calvin
> <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> >> I'm trying to recall what was "out of place" about the football game.
> >> Working in combat support is boring, and troops will do anything to
> >> break the monotony. We used to go into Saigon and pay the local boys
> >> to have rickshaw races (money to the winner) after which we would
> >> relax our weary bones (flex, too) at Magic Fingers Massage Parlour.
> >> Don't remember any football matches, but baseball and volleyball games
> >> were fairly common.
>
> >If they had played football in their army clothes
> >in the dirt and the mud it would have been fine;
> >but the movie suddenly switched to a pristine
> >high school football field in middle America (to
> >all appearances) with everyone wearing proper
> >fitting football uniforms.  I've never seen any more
> >of a glaring violation of a movie's production
> >design, and from Altman of all people.  And where
> >did they acquire the football star?  He wasn't in
> >the movie up until then, but the script miraculouisly
> >conjured him when it needed a gimmick.
>
> Well, he was in the book.   And there were college football stars in
> the war.

I have no problem with him being black, but as a
point of historical fact, I don't think there were any
black college football players at the time of the
Korean War. The first I ever heard of it was in 1956,
the year before I started to college at Georgia Tech.
Tech was playing Pittsburgh that year, which had a
black player. The governor of Georgia decreed that
the game could not be played if the black player
participated. Outraged Georgia Tech students
marched on the Governor's mansion, and the
Governor relented. This was before the Maddox era,
by the way. The first black Georgia Tech player was
in 1964 or 1965, I believe. Since then, of course,
many of Tech's greatest football stars have been black.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 19:13:37 -0700 (PDT), calvin

Funny I should pick this link. I had the author, Dr. Roger B. Saylor,
emeritus professor of statistics and economics, at Penn State in my
third year for a statistics course in 1973. I had forgotten about
him.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/CFHSN/CFHSNv19/CFHSNv19n1b.pdf

--

[Mack A. Damia]

A bit scary, too - he was from my home town in Pennsylvania and died
eighteen days ago!

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/centredaily/obituary.aspx?n=roger-behm-saylor&pid=164792583#fbLoggedOut

--

[Bill Anderson]

On 5/20/2013 10:13 PM, calvin wrote:

I don't think there were any
> black college football players at the time of the
> Korean War.

Grambling State, among plenty of others.

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog

[calvin]

On May 20, 11:13 pm, Bill Anderson <billanderson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 5/20/2013 10:13 PM, calvin wrote:
> > I don't think there were any
> > black college football players at the time of the
> > Korean War.
>
> Grambling State, among plenty of others.

Yes, I was wrong, but if I had thought to except
black colleges, I would have. That was a different era,
when there were such things as black colleges. I don't
know if Grambling State was a black college or not.

In any case I was wrong, wrong, wrong, and I
apologize to the whole universe.

[Tom]

It's a good thing no one relies on you for life saving information...
they'd be dead.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blackhistory2008/columns/story?columnist=lapchick_richard&id=3254974

"Generally, the conferences north of the Mason-Dixon line integrated
much earlier than the SEC and ACC. William Henry Lewis was an African-
American All-American football player at Harvard in 1892 while
attending Harvard Law School. William Edward White played baseball on
Brown's 1879 team.

Preston Eagleson played football at Indiana University in the 1890s
and became the first African-American to earn an advanced degree
there. Julian V. Ware and teammate Adelbert R. Matthews, both African-
American, led the University of Wisconsin to its first Big Ten
baseball championship in 1902. Tackle Gideon Smith helped the Michigan
Agricultural College, now Michigan State, have an undefeated football
season in 1913 in which it beat the University of Michigan, its
archrival, for the first time by a score of 12-7.

From 1891 to 1894, George Flippin, the son of a slave, was enrolled at
the University of Nebraska as its first African-American student-
athlete. He played baseball, threw the shot, wrestled and played
football, and later became a doctor. Sherman, Grant and Ed Harvey all
attended the University of Kansas, beginning when Sherman enrolled in
1888. Sherman and Grant played baseball there; Ed played football and
baseball. The three brothers, who also were sons of slaves, went on to
become an attorney (Sherman), a doctor (Grant) and a civic leader
(Ed). "

And the football field and nice uniforms was a metaphor for American
excess. You clearly don't understand Altman.

Tom

[Tom]

Harvard, 1892.

Tom

[calvin]

On May 20, 11:59 pm, Tom <drso...@aol.com> wrote:
> And the football field and nice uniforms was a metaphor for
> American excess. You clearly don't understand Altman.

Neither of those things are excess, so if that's what
Altman meant he was wrong. More likely you don't
understand Altman. But I was complaining about
the glaring inconsistency of that episode of the
movie with everything that had gone before, and the
insane illogic of placing that football field and
surrounding landscape in Korea. It was even less
convincing than John Wayne's absurd use of west
Georgia to be Vietnam in The Green Berets.

[calvin]

On May 20, 11:59 pm, Tom <drso...@aol.com> wrote:

> It's a good thing no one relies on you for life saving information...
> they'd be dead.

What I said was clearly stated as what I thought, not as what
I knew. And none of this is meant to be at the level of life-
saving information. Your hatred is painful not because it
expresses truth, but simply because it is so vicious. What
kind of upbringing did you have, to become such an ugly,
snarling, bully?

[Halmyre]

But the The Green Berets isn't satire...actually, maybe Wayne was
pulling our legs...

--
Halmyre

[madar...@gmail.com]

I saw this film a million times back in the day--it used to get reissued with 20th Century Fox double features all the time--and the football scene never bothered me. In fact, it was one of the funniest scenes in the movie.

[Tom]

Drop dead you hillbilly douche bag. Bring my parents into one one your
bullshit fests? What a fucking pussy you are.

I was raised by two loving parents and have four siblings.

You're the bully, 'calvin.' You're constantly telling people what they
should think or what they should know or whatever else the they should
do.

Do humanity a favor and step in front of bus.

Tom

[calvin]

On May 21, 6:58 pm, Tom <drso...@aol.com> wrote:
> ...

> You're the bully, 'calvin.' You're constantly telling people what they
> should think or what they should know or whatever else the they should

> do. ..

You should listen to some of the public service announcements
on radio, and I assume also on TV, about bullying. They
describe and illustrate your behavior exactly, not mine.
Whatever my many faults are, bullying is not one of them,
but bullying has been your primary behavior here for years,
and since I have been your primary victim, it is my business
to point it out.

[calvin]

I should have said I have been your primary target,
not victim. I'm not permanently harmed by you. Sticks
and stones and all that. But you would like to drive the
truck that you advised me to step in front of. That is
clear.

Just use this thread as an example. I started it and
gave my views on the movie, and then made a false
comment about college football, which I retracted
and apologized for. Now look at your hostility which
resulted. There's something wrong with the picture.
Try to see yourself for once.

[Tom]

On May 22, 8:15 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> On May 21, 6:58 pm, Tom <drso...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > ...
> > You're the bully, 'calvin.' You're constantly telling people what they
> > should think or what they should know or whatever else the they should
> > do.  ..
>
> You should listen

Well, there you go again.

Tom

[Tom]

On May 22, 8:29 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> On May 22, 9:15 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> > On May 21, 6:58 pm, Tom <drso...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > ...
> > > You're the bully, 'calvin.' You're constantly telling people what they
> > > should think or what they should know or whatever else the they should
> > > do.  ..
>
> > You should listen to some of the public service announcements
> > on radio, and I assume also on TV, about bullying.  They
> > describe and illustrate your behavior exactly, not mine.
> > Whatever my many faults are, bullying is not one of them,
> > but bullying has been your primary behavior here for years,
> > and since I have been your primary victim, it is my business
> > to point it out.
>
> I should have said I have been your primary target,
> not victim.  I'm not permanently harmed by you.  Sticks
> and stones and all that.  But you would like to drive the
> truck that you advised me to step in front of.  That is
> clear.

Clear as mud... I wrote: "Do humanity a favor and step in front of
bus."

Where in that statement did I mention a truck or my desire to drive
it?

>
> Just use this thread as an example.  I started it and
> gave my views on the movie, and then made a false
> comment about college football, which I retracted
> and apologized for.  Now look at your hostility which
> resulted.  There's something wrong with the picture.
> Try to see yourself for once.

Yet, you conveniently left out the part about you insulting my parents
and questioning my upbringing.

You're a liar and a coward and a perpetual victim. My response to you
had nothing to do with your ignorance of black history or your
misunderstanding of M*A*S*H... it was about your bullshit comments
about how I was raised.

Your reading comprehension is highly lacking.

Fuck you.

Tom

[calvin]

This response illustrates what I said and indicates again that
you should listen to some of the public service announcements

[Tom]

Piss off, you dishonest douche bag. You live your entire, miserable
life in denial.

Tom

[calvin]

Talk sincerely and accurately * about this dishonesty and denial, or
this response, too, illustrates what I said and indicates again that

you should listen to some of the public service announcements
on radio, and I assume also on TV, about bullying.

* but not pedantically, as in making a big thing about the
difference between 'truck' and 'bus'.

[trotsky]

On 5/22/13 8:52 PM, Tom wrote:
> On May 22, 8:29 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
>> On May 22, 9:15 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On May 21, 6:58 pm, Tom <drso...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> You're the bully, 'calvin.' You're constantly telling people what they
>>>> should think or what they should know or whatever else the they should
>>>> do. ..
>>
>>> You should listen to some of the public service announcements
>>> on radio, and I assume also on TV, about bullying. They
>>> describe and illustrate your behavior exactly, not mine.
>>> Whatever my many faults are, bullying is not one of them,
>>> but bullying has been your primary behavior here for years,
>>> and since I have been your primary victim, it is my business
>>> to point it out.
>>
>> I should have said I have been your primary target,
>> not victim. I'm not permanently harmed by you. Sticks
>> and stones and all that. But you would like to drive the
>> truck that you advised me to step in front of. That is
>> clear.
>
> Clear as mud... I wrote: "Do humanity a favor and step in front of
> bus."
>
> Where in that statement did I mention a truck or my desire to drive
> it?

Duh. He was giving it the Fox News treatment.


--
Never post something on the internet unless you have a point of
reference. You will look like a moron otherwise.

[hislop]

Another MASH movie, a claim they wanted to call it MASH, but it sounded
too much like potatoes, in a documentary on the Casablanca bluray with
Lauren Bacall.

Battle Circus (1953)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045544/
"The original title that was rejected was "MASH 66," which referred to
the same Mobile Army Surgical Hospital unit in the Korean War"