awkward speaking style in movies
nope
Anyone else put off by the awkward speaking style in say, Mamet's work, or
for example Uma
Thurman's character (Mia) in Pulp Fiction? To me it is as if the actors
were told to sound awkward, for reasons I cannot fathom. I understand that
people in real life can be awkward, but the oddities I refer to seem to be
a bit over the top. Some of what I have heard in Mamet's films sounds so
wooden as to be almost farcical. Is this some kind of abstract artistic or
comedic statement on his part? The strange, flat cadences and lack of
emotion I would normally think of simply as bad acting, as if you threw a
script in the hands of someone on the street and said "here, read this,"
but in the case of Mamet and Pulp Fiction, these are generally accepted to
be top-notch works. Hell, Uma got an oscar nomination for her work. Am I
missing something?
Andy Averill
"nope" <n...@atl.mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3BD97B61...@atl.mediaone.net...
Mamet was originally a playwright, and I imagine that kind of dialog works
better onstage.
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MadNetter
Well, like anything that's stylized to an extreme degree, Mamet's type of
dialogue might not be your cup o' tea. (I've heard similar complaints
directed toward Hal Hartley, who's early films are packed with extremely
stilted, flat deliveries.) However, I find it interesting, and here's why:
Mamet has a gift for two things: deconstructing the rhythms of American
speech, and swearing. (William H. Macy credits him with the creation of the
truly inspired "unbefuckinglievable".) Mamet tends to emphasise the
stopping-and-starting staccato rhythms of speech over such things as
inflection. It's a little bit like be-bop, in a way. Similar to be-bop,
people who don't like it tend to think of it as noise.
Like Tarantino, Mamet is in love with words. Listening to Pacino et al. go
at "Glengarry Glen Ross" is like listening to a great jazz band jam, or like
Sonic Youth tear into "Teenage Riot".
(To stretch the music metaphor to a ridiculous length, Tarantino is to Mamet
like Green Day is to Husker Du.)
I don't believe Mamet (or Tarantino, for that matter) ever intended their
dialogue to be considered realistic. Obviously, it isn't - but neither is
any other film dialogue. It's all stylized to some degree - Mamet's just
making it more obvious.
Bottom line: don't worry about not liking it. It's an aquired taste.
Kevin "Forcing My Wife To Listen To 'Zen Arcade'" Cogliano
John Harkness
>I don't believe Mamet (or Tarantino, for that matter) ever intended their
>dialogue to be considered realistic. Obviously, it isn't - but neither is
>any other film dialogue. It's all stylized to some degree - Mamet's just
>making it more obvious.
>
>Bottom line: don't worry about not liking it. It's an aquired taste.
>
Personally, I'd question how stylized Mamet's dialogue is.
Seven or eight years ago, I was walking down Eighth Avenue in New York
and fell into step behind a couple of guys in suits, who were talking
loud enough for me to hear every word of their conversation, and after
about a minute, I realized I was listening to a full blown Mamet
dialogue, the beats, the repetitions, everything was right there in
front of me.
Also, if you get a chance, listen to some of George W. Bush's
off-the-cuff remarks sometimes -- the looping sentences, the
relentless search for a predicate the speaker knows is in their
somewhare, the pauses -- minus the "motherfuckers", of course, Bush
senior WAS a Mamet character.
John Harkness
Kevin FilmNutBoy
Agreed. Personally, I love stylized dialogue. My favorite dialogue on TV
right now is on "The West Wing." Those characters almost all talk alike, and
none of them talk anything like real people talk. But it's fun to listen to,
even when the characters are spouting silly left wing drivel.
--Kevin
***
"Pacifism is hurtful, but so is blind loyalty."
Steve Oldham
>Anyone else put off by the awkward speaking style in say, Mamet's work, or
>for example Uma
>Thurman's character (Mia) in Pulp Fiction? To me it is as if the actors
>were told to sound awkward, for reasons I cannot fathom
I think Mamet's dialog cuts to the core of what a character is
conflicted or troubled by. In "real" speech we hem & haw, testing each
others trustworthiness. Mamet strips away a lot of those pleasantries.
I love this style when it's used in intense dramas but not so much in
a comedy like 'State and Main'. There were sections of this film that
I really enjoyed but then Pigeon, and to a lesser extent Macy, would
get into that dry, precision Mamet-speak and the comedic flow would
come to a screeching halt.
Steve
Moloko
great Hollywood epics of the 50s and 60s. They tend to stretch the
dialogue quite a bit. It seems that every Roman talks at half the
speed any normal person would. It didn't seem to bother anyone at the
time, and even now it's still quite acceptable. As long as we see
these films in their historical context, of course. I don't think
today's audience would appreciate this kind of speaking in a modern
film, though. I still find it quite acceptable, certainly not to the
extend where I don't enjoy the film for it.
"Life of Brian" was brilliant in it's own way by letting the
characters speak at normal speed (considering Monty Python, twice the
average). I think this was one of the major reasons that made it so
hilarious, just because the audience is used to a complete different
way of talking in these kind of movies.
What about 'Gladiator' ? I can't seem to recall how they talked in
that film. Was it similar to the slow-paced, overdramatized talking of
Ben-Hur ?
just an opinion
Moloko
larry legallo
This reminds me of something that I've been curious about for awhile.
The dialogue in THE WINSLOW BOY has the same Mametian rythmn of his
other films. Can anybody that has read or seen the original play tell
me how much Mamet changed the actual dialogue? He has a screenwriting
credit for the film, and some of the lines are so intricate and
embedded with multiple meanings that I wonder how much was Terrence
Rattigan and how much was Mamet.
Also, if anyone has seen the 1948 film with R. Donat and Cedric
Hardwicke or any of the British TV productions (Emma Thompsn was in
one) of the play, and can comment on the quality of those, I would
appreciate it.
The film continues to grow on me, though it seems there are emotional
elements that Mamet either refuses to focus on, or simply mishandles.
Love Rebecca Pidgeon, though. A major upgrade from Lindsay Crouse, on
every level.
David Matthews
"larry legallo" wrote :
<snip>
> Also, if anyone has seen the 1948 film with R. Donat and Cedric
> Hardwicke or any of the British TV productions (Emma Thompsn was in
> one) of the play, and can comment on the quality of those, I would
> appreciate it.
>
<snip>
I did see the 1948 version with Robert Donat. Superb, with a great
performance by Kathleen Harrison as Violet, her final description of the
outcome of the trial to the family members used to get a round of applause
even in movie houses (I believe played the same role on the London stage). A
very good example of British film making in the forties. I haven't seen the
Mamet version yet so I can't compare.
Dave
Fred
Proxy. Extremely stylized retro-50s reporter, sticking out like a
sore thumb, and almost ruining the movie, but . . . now I want to see
the flick again, to see if I'll "get" it now.
State and Main: nothing seemed natural, and everything, as a resault,
became less funny.
Wag the Dog: too orchestrated, unnatural. Couldn't get into the film
because of it.
Wait, before you think I'm condemning Mamet:
Glengarry Glen Ross: One of the most Brilliant Movies of all time,
IMO. Because of the stylized dialogue?
The Verdict: Another work of art, and the dialogue is REALLY natural
in that one.
Fred
John Harkness
>Jennifer Jason-Leigh's character (and ONLY hers) in the Hudsucker
>Proxy. Extremely stylized retro-50s reporter, sticking out like a
>sore thumb, and almost ruining the movie, but . . . now I want to see
>the flick again, to see if I'll "get" it now.
>
Wrong decade -- she's doing Katharine Hepburn, c. 1938
John Harkness
Fred
> Wrong decade -- she's doing Katharine Hepburn, c. 1938
>
> John Harkness
John,
What do you think of her performance? I'm eager to not only see the
film again but add the DVD to my collection, since my goal is to own
all 8 Coen Brothers flicks (9 next year). My wife, however, doesn't
want to see it again, because of *her*.
I send telepathic waves to Fox studios daily: "Release Miller's
Crossing, Release Miller's Crossing."
Fred
John Harkness
Speaking as a great fan of JJLeigh, not much -- I kept thinking of
George Sanders' line to Anne Baxter in All About Eve -- "you're not
tall enough for that gesture." You want to see a terrific JJL comedy
performance, check The Big Picture, where she seems to have pixie's
dancing in her brain.
But then, I truly deeply loathe Hudsucker Proxy -- I think it's as
miscalculated a mess as ever's been made -- it's the one Coen Brothers
film I actively dislike, and I 've seen it twice, the second to be
sure. (Well, also because Sight And Sound wanted a piece on it, so I
had to see it again.)
Jeremy Heilman
>What do you think of her performance? I'm eager to not only see the
>film again but add the DVD to my collection, since my goal is to own
>all 8 Coen Brothers flicks (9 next year). My wife, however, doesn't
>want to see it again, because of *her*.
I don't see the great disconnect between Leigh's performance and
everyone else's in this film that so many people seem to. I mean, how
is Leigh any different here than Clooney is O Brother...? He is so
charismatic that it his charisma starts to wear thin. He repeats his
catchphrase "We're in a tight spot." with the same precision as Leigh
in Hudsucker. And isn't everyone in Hudsucker a bit of a robotic
cliche? Look at the newspaper editor, her fellow reporter, Tim Robbins
as Grant/Cooper/Stewart, Peter Gallagher's bit part, Moses, etc.
etc... They're all as chock full of mannerism as she is, so I'm not
quite sure why she's singled out.
Jeremy
---
http://www.geocities.com/nyfilmfest
Fred
I'll have my "to be sure" viewing someday. Funny you mention The Big
Picture. It tops my "to watch" list, as I'm a huge Christopher Guest
fan. Watching the outtakes on the Guffman DVD alone can cheer me up
for the rest of the day.
"Who's on top and who's on bottom now, huh? I'll see you in hell,
Billy, but at least I'm going to have some fun before *I* get there."
-Parker Posey
Fred
John Harkness
I could go after the others if you like. And the art direction,
and....
John Harkness
Jeremy Heilman
>I'll have my "to be sure" viewing someday. Funny you mention The Big
>Picture. It tops my "to watch" list, as I'm a huge Christopher Guest
>fan. Watching the outtakes on the Guffman DVD alone can cheer me up
>for the rest of the day.
>
>"Who's on top and who's on bottom now, huh? I'll see you in hell,
>Billy, but at least I'm going to have some fun before *I* get there."
>-Parker Posey
Right on... that scene on the Guffman DVD beats the pants off anything
that Coppola dug up for Apocalypse Now Redux by a mile. It's so much
funnier than the audition they decided to include... I wonder if it
was cut since Posey, and not Levy/Guest wrote it...
Jeremy
---
http://www.geocities.com/nyfilmfest
Jeremy Heilman
wrote:
>I could go after the others if you like. And the art direction,
>and....
Naah, it's not you man... it's the whole damned system..
.
It seems EVERYONE loves to harp on about that performance... I think
it might be because she's the most prominent female in the film.
To me though, all Coen films have the same sort of distorted
characters... it's their trademark. I don't see the difference between
this film and some of their others, except that this has more to say
than something like Blood Simple or O Brother...
Jeremy
---
http://www.geocities.com/nyfilmfest
John Harkness
It's very rare though, for them to put one of those archly hyperbolic
characters in the lead -- Turturro in Barton Fink, perhaps.
I suspect it's because a lot of people dislike JJL.
John Harkness
Wull
The speaking style by Jodie Foster in the movie Nell was
superb.
Not only awkward but very difficult and mesmerizing.
Wull
John Harkness
I once caught it four times in five weeks on airplanes. By the end of
it, I was ready to chop nell into small pieces with an ax and use her
for chum.
John Harkness
Ruth
(John Harkness) wrote:
> Just out of curiousity, how many times have you seen Nell?
>
> I once caught it four times in five weeks on airplanes. By the end of
> it, I was ready to chop nell into small pieces with an ax and use her
> for chum.
>
> John Harkness
>
Gee, I only saw it once and that activity seemed like a good idea to me
as well.
--
Go Yankees!
Wull
understood it a little better the second time.
What is *chum*?
You did not say if you agree or disagree that it was awkward
speaking.
Wull
Wull
If it bothered you that much, why didn't you just not watch
it?
TIA
Wull
John Harkness
>I have seen it two times and enjoyed it both times. I
>understood it a little better the second time.
>
>What is *chum*?
>
>You did not say if you agree or disagree that it was awkward
>speaking.
>
>Wull
>
A chopped up mess of blood and guts one tosses in the water to draw
sharks.
John Harkness
John Harkness
>second question JH.
>
>If it bothered you that much, why didn't you just not watch
>it?
>
I'd forgotten to pack a book, the music selections sucked, I couldn't
walk out.
Put moving images in front of me, and, generally, I'll watch them.
John Harkness
Fred
> I don't see the great disconnect between Leigh's performance and
> everyone else's in this film that so many people seem to. I mean, how
> is Leigh any different here than Clooney is O Brother...? He is so
> charismatic that it his charisma starts to wear thin. He repeats his
> catchphrase "We're in a tight spot." with the same precision as Leigh
> in Hudsucker. And isn't everyone in Hudsucker a bit of a robotic
> cliche? Look at the newspaper editor, her fellow reporter, Tim Robbins
> as Grant/Cooper/Stewart, Peter Gallagher's bit part, Moses, etc.
> etc... They're all as chock full of mannerism as she is, so I'm not
> quite sure why she's singled out.
>
> Jeremy
> ---
Jeremy,
That's exactly why I want to see it again, so I can see how she fits
in with the rest of the flick. I'm not sure why she stands out.
Could it be that she doesn't "believe" in her fake character? I'm not
sure.
Fred
Fred
I wonder if it
> was cut since Posey, and not Levy/Guest wrote it...
Jeremy,
I think on the commentary track Guest mentions that it was almost left
in but cut for time. He said it was so bizarre that he wanted to keep
it in. Then again, I do like the song and dance number, too, which is
totally wasted on Corky, if you know what I mean.
Fredric