Film Noir
extreme...@aol.com
having trouble deciding which is best, this has been an ongoing
argument between me and several of my friends.
ideas?
John Harkness
hmmm......
Touch of Evil
Force of Evil
Kiss Me Deadly
The Big Combo
The Big Sleep
The Big Heat
T-Men
Where the Sidewalk Ends
Fallen Angel
Double Indemnity
The Killers
Detour
The Third Man
For starters
John Harkness
BillK
absolutely nothing is as it seems and poor Jake, trying to be part of
the solution, tragically becomes part of the problem. Every time I
watch it I find something new to appreciate. It is almost impossible
for most people to sort out after one showing, and some would knock it
for that reason. I like Double Indemnity and Out of the Past and Touch
of Evil and The Killers and the Big Sleep and The Strange Love of
Martha Ivers and L.A. Confidential and Body Heat and Kansas City
Confidential and Criss Cross and and and... I watched Crime of Passion
last night and tonight will be This Gun for Hire. I like Chinatown
best.
Rick Blaine
"BillK" <rcgo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142791147.3...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Best? Hmm, how about favorite? My favorite is Chinatown,
Not exactly film noir, though.
Feuillade
> Best? Hmm, how about favorite? My favorite is Chinatown, where
> absolutely nothing is as it seems and poor Jake, trying to be part of
> the solution, tragically becomes part of the problem. Every time I
> watch it I find something new to appreciate.
But it's not a film noir.
(Neither is "The Maltese Falcon").
Tom Moran
David Oberman
>T-Men
This one is my personal favorite. I love the whole thing, especially
those scenes down at the Port Authority office, with the clock on the
wall.
Your Pal Brian
I'm finally gonna watch this tonight.
Harkness probably meant to include The Maltese Falcon and Gun Crazy but
forgot. I'll add Brute Force, Asphalt Jungle, and The Killing.
Also, despite its flaws - and despite the fact that no one, not even the
director, agrees with me - I've decided that Killer's Kiss is a great
film. The chase/fight at the end is brilliant, but it's the Times Square
scene that puts it over the top - the classic Kubrick set-up of the
perfect plan gone awry. Watch Your Step!
Brian
W. Lydecker
didn't suddenly disappear in the late fifties. Check out Walter Hill's
The DRIVER, with O'Neal; Adjani and Dern.
If you can get past the not too bright, shmuck protagonist leads in
BODY HEAT and RED ROCK WEST, you're in for noir treats. Kathleen Turner
figuratively burns William Hurt in the first one.
In the second, Nick Cage's loser comes close the classic shmuck, Tom
Neal in DETOUR. He's misidentified by J.T. Walsh and Laura Flynn Boyle
as a hitman, and both try to hire him to kill the other. Nick is
befriended by Dennis Hopper, the real killer, "Lyle from Dallas".
Jim Beaver
<extreme...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142785864....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Out of the Past
Out of the Past
Out of the Past
Out of the Past
or
Out of the Past
Jim Beaver
John Harkness
<brian...@iFreedom.com> wrote:
>David Oberman wrote:
>
>> John Harkness <jhar...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >T-Men
>>
>> This one is my personal favorite. I love the whole thing, especially
>> those scenes down at the Port Authority office, with the clock on the
>> wall.
>
>I'm finally gonna watch this tonight.
>
>Harkness probably meant to include The Maltese Falcon and Gun Crazy but
>forgot. I'll add Brute Force, Asphalt Jungle, and The Killing.
>
Nope. I think Maltese Falcon is a great picture, but fairly marginal
as noir -- and if I wanted a "doomed couple on the run" picture, I'd
go with They Live By Night before Gun Crazy.
On the other hand, I did forget the movie with the greatest noir title
ever, Out of the Past.
John Harkness
David Oberman
>> >T-Men
>>
>> This one is my personal favorite. I love the whole thing, especially
>> those scenes down at the Port Authority office, with the clock on the
>> wall.
>
>I'm finally gonna watch this tonight.
Well, you won't like it probably & then you'll think I'm a moron.
>Also, despite its flaws - and despite the fact that no one, not even the
>director, agrees with me - I've decided that Killer's Kiss is a great
>film.
I can top that: I think "Whirlpool" is a great film.
David Oberman
> Folks constantly argue what is or isn't noir. One thing sure, it
>didn't suddenly disappear in the late fifties. Check out Walter Hill's
>The DRIVER, with O'Neal; Adjani and Dern.
One thing about noir characters that is essential: They have to be
non-bathers, or only minimal bathers. That's my criterion.
David Oberman
>Out of the Past
>Out of the Past
>Out of the Past
>Out of the Past
>or
>Out of the Past
Also, Jim, none of them has anything to do with "Into the Night,"
"Into the Blue," "Into the West" or "Into the Woods" -- just to
clarify for the newbies.
BillK
Lots of opinions on this. Here is one from James Berardinelli, a
well-regarded critic. I can find a couple of thousand similiar
comments if you don't care for Berardinelli.
"Chinatown is unquestionably one of the best films to emerge from the
1970s, a period that has been called the "last great decade of American
cinema" by more than one movie critic. The production, which went in
front of the cameras without a final script, marks the high-water point
in the careers of both lead actor Jack Nicholson and director Roman
Polanski. It also represents the finest color entry into the film noir
genre (which, at the time, was dubbed "neo noir"). Yet, unlike the many
hard boiled detective stories that litter the noir asphalt, Chinatown
isn't afraid to play with conventions. The result is a film that only
seems traditional until you realize you don't know exactly where it's
going."
There was no femme fatale in Chinatown - granted. Evelyn Mulwary was
about the only completely well-motivated person in the entire film.
Many noirs didn't exhibit each and every attribute of the genre.
John Harkness
You're pretty much alone on that one.
John Harkness
Jeff Duncanson
How about a couple of others that are well past the best-by date, but
still carry the feel of classic Noir
Arthur Penn's "Night Moves", and Karel Reisz' "Who'll Stop the Rain?"
Jeff
John Harkness
neo noir, yes. because it's out of period.
As to respected critics, Paul Schrader defined noir as style and
period -- essnentially, noir stops in 1959 or so. Then there's a big
gap, then the people attempting noir revivals -- neo-noirs like
Chinatown and noir pastiches like Miller's Crossing.
Bernardinelli is wrong, it's not noir.
John Harkness
le...@my-deja.com
noir to start at 1944 with DOUBLE INDEMNITY, MURDER MY SWEET and
PHANTOM LADY and end in 1958 with TOUCH OF EVIL.
The best?
DOUBLE INDEMNITY
THE BIG SLEEP
THE KILLERS
OUT OF THE PAST
CRISS CROSS
WHITE HEAT
And one can make a case for KISS ME DEADLY and TOUCH OF EVIL.
BillK
attention, and did not realize there is a consensus. If the view here
is that film noir ended in about 1959, I stand corrected.
Your comments sent me to my Film Noir Reader. There is an interesting
essay, "Kill Me Again: Movement Becomes Genre", that gives the view of
one Todd Erickson on this topic. His getaway:
"As we emerge from the darkness of the cinema (and the nightmarish
darkness of the noir film) into the light of the theatre lobby, we
breathe a sigh of relief, and contemplate our tense encounter with the
flip side of the American Dream. By vicariously confronting the noir
world on the screen, whether the film noir, or its modern offshoot,
neo-noir, we are able to validate the patterns of order and continuity
we seek to establish in our lives. More precisely yet, 'by means of
the night...we see the light of day'."
This is the key, to me: It all leaves me feeling the same way.
Here is a quote I got when I Googled this. It is from Wikipedia:
"Chinatown is a thematically rich film that holds up remarkably well on
repeated viewings. The movie, released in the heyday of the New
Hollywood era, was at the time considered a homage to the Film Noir
genre, especially since its cast included John Huston, who directed
several great noir films, particularly The Maltese Falcon. However,
some film historians consider Chinatown a genuine film noir in its own
right despite the fact the film is in color and was released well
outside of the classical film noir era. Roger Ebert in particular
shares this view; in his Great Movie review he states, 'Chinatown was
seen as a neo-noir when it was released -- an update on an old genre.
Now years have passed and film history blurs a little, and it seems to
settle easily beside the original noirs. That is a compliment.'"
What does Ebert mean by this? Your point is that many observers
distinguish film noir from neo noir by timeframe, not style. Ebert
seems to fog it all up: If he accepts the term neo-noir, which he
seems to, then the classification of the movie has to be neo-noir, yet
his comment implies he believes there is a way of including it in film
noir. Not the first time Ebert has fogged things up for me. If there
is going to be a film noir and a neo-noir, the clean way of creating
the distinction is by period and period alone.
Your final comment is, "Bernardinelli is wrong, it's not noir." How am
I to understand this? Does the single word noir imply *only* film
noir? If I say "Chinatown is a film noir" and you say "no it isn't,
film noir ended in 1959", I can easily accept this. If I say
"Chinatown is a noir", will you tell me it is not a noir? If it makes
me want to take a shower afterwords, can't I correctly call it "noir"?
:-)
rms
My choice. And how about The Lady From Shanghai.
rms
John Harkness
Here's a fundamental disagreement when it comes to defining noir --
referring to it as a genre, which is all well and good, except that it
isn't. This is the utility of Schrader's definition, which is that
noir crosses genres. Yes, dark urban crime films from the 40s and 50s,
but also westerns (The Furies, Pursued, Rancho Notorious) and at least
one musical (Christmas Holiday).
Remember, aside from the French, no one talked about noir until the
early 70s, when, like the Hollywood melodrama (and there's some
interesting crossovers there, come to think of it), it underwent a
critical revival through the efforts of people like Schrader and Alain
Silver. (I'd wager that Ebert wasn't calling Chinatown film noir in
74, when one didn't much hear the phrase outside of academia.
>What does Ebert mean by this? Your point is that many observers
>distinguish film noir from neo noir by timeframe, not style.
UH-UH/
Go back and reread.
Noir is period AND style.
> Ebert
>seems to fog it all up: If he accepts the term neo-noir, which he
>seems to, then the classification of the movie has to be neo-noir, yet
>his comment implies he believes there is a way of including it in film
>noir. Not the first time Ebert has fogged things up for me. If there
>is going to be a film noir and a neo-noir, the clean way of creating
>the distinction is by period and period alone.
>
>Your final comment is, "Bernardinelli is wrong, it's not noir." How am
>I to understand this? Does the single word noir imply *only* film
>noir? If I say "Chinatown is a film noir" and you say "no it isn't,
>film noir ended in 1959", I can easily accept this. If I say
>"Chinatown is a noir", will you tell me it is not a noir? If it makes
>me want to take a shower afterwords, can't I correctly call it "noir"?
>:-)
It's not a noir, as far as I'm concerned, if it was made after 1960.
Neo-noir films are films that self-consciously work to evoke a past
style of film-making, whether through conscientious period recreation
like Chinatown or Miller's Crossing, or by twisty plots and a lot of
night shooting, like Blood Simple or Red Rock West.
Noir is not self-conscious -- neo-noir generally is.
John Harkness
Martin Koolhoven
Nice list.
Add:
Naked Kiss
In a lonely Place
Panic in the Streets
Du rififi chez les hommes
The Killing
Martin Koolhoven (wonders if Notorious could be defined as Film Noir)
http://www.knetterdefilm.nl
http://www.hetschnitzelparadijs.nl
Your Pal Brian
> I'd wager that Ebert wasn't calling Chinatown film noir in
> 74, when one didn't much hear the phrase outside of academia.
Slightly off topic, but I remember a film where a young man tells his
date/girlfriend he's a fan of film noir. She asks what that is and he
explains its a kind of film that explores the dark side of life. This was
to demonstrate the guy was the group's token highbrow.
I thought it was from Metroplitan, but I just watched that and it's not.
Anybody know the film? It was a talky coming-of-age thing. Diner maybe?
Barcelona?
Brian
Feuillade
> On 19 Mar 2006 13:25:20 -0800, "BillK" <rcgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Not exactly film noir, though."
> >
> >Lots of opinions on this. Here is one from James Berardinelli, a
> >well-regarded critic. I can find a couple of thousand similiar
> >comments if you don't care for Berardinelli.
> >
> >"Chinatown is unquestionably one of the best films to emerge from the
> >1970s, a period that has been called the "last great decade of American
> >cinema" by more than one movie critic. The production, which went in
> >front of the cameras without a final script, marks the high-water point
> >in the careers of both lead actor Jack Nicholson and director Roman
> >Polanski. It also represents the finest color entry into the film noir
> >genre (which, at the time, was dubbed "neo noir"). Yet, unlike the many
> >hard boiled detective stories that litter the noir asphalt, Chinatown
> >isn't afraid to play with conventions. The result is a film that only
> >seems traditional until you realize you don't know exactly where it's
> >going."
> >
> >There was no femme fatale in Chinatown - granted. Evelyn Mulwary was
> >about the only completely well-motivated person in the entire film.
> >Many noirs didn't exhibit each and every attribute of the genre.
>
> neo noir, yes. because it's out of period.
>
It's not even neo-noir. It's just a period detective film -- no more a
noir than "Murder on the Orient Express."
>
> As to respected critics, Paul Schrader defined noir as style and
> period -- essnentially, noir stops in 1959 or so. Then there's a big
> gap, then the people attempting noir revivals -- neo-noirs like
> Chinatown and noir pastiches like Miller's Crossing.
>
> Bernardinelli is wrong, it's not noir.
>
It's not neo-noir either -- that doesn't start until 1981 with "Body
Heat."
Tom Moran
Feuillade
> Just for the record, I'm old-school and consider the period of film
> noir to start at 1944 with DOUBLE INDEMNITY, MURDER MY SWEET and
> PHANTOM LADY and end in 1958 with TOUCH OF EVIL.
>
I agree completely.
>
> The best?
>
> DOUBLE INDEMNITY
> THE BIG SLEEP
> THE KILLERS
> OUT OF THE PAST
> CRISS CROSS
> WHITE HEAT
>
> And one can make a case for KISS ME DEADLY and TOUCH OF EVIL.
The best film noir is the earliest: "Double Indemnity."
Nothing else comes close.
Tom Moran
Feuillade
"Christmas Holiday" is not a musical.
Tom Moran
> Remember, aside from the French, no one talked about noir until the
> early 70s, when, like the Hollywood melodrama (and there's some
> interesting crossovers there, come to think of it), it underwent a
> critical revival through the efforts of people like Schrader and Alain
> Silver. (I'd wager that Ebert wasn't calling Chinatown film noir in
> 74, when one didn't much hear the phrase outside of academia.
>
No one called "Chinatown" a film noir or even a neo-noir when it came
out -- and I saw the film the day it opened.
They compared it specifically to "The Maltese Falcon," which is also
not a film noir.
At least one reviewer (not Ebert and I'm damned if I can remember who
it was) complained that it was too long.
Neo-Noir, as I've said, starts with "Body Heat" in 1981.
Tom Moran
John Harkness
Definitely not Diner -- just about the only movie reference in Diner
is Seventh Seal.
John Harkness
Cicero
"Feuillade" <Feui...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142818403.9...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Interesting definition at http://www.eskimo.com/~noir/whatis.shtml
Sean O'Hara
extreme...@aol.com declared:
> I've seen as many Noir movies as my mind can take in (a lot) but am
> having trouble deciding which is best, this has been an ongoing
> argument between me and several of my friends.
> ideas?
>
Best films noir:
Out of the Past
Panic in the Streets
Night and the City
Fallen Angel
Where the Sidewalk Ends
Force of Evil
Somewhere in the Night
The Set-up
Touch of Evil
Best noirish films that aren't quite film noir:
Bad Day at Black Rock
The Third Man
The Petrified Forest
Forty Guns
Best guilty-pleasure noirs:
The Damned Don't Cry
Leave Her to Heaven
Best neo noirs:
Following
Memento
Point Blank
L.A. Confidential
(If it lives up to the early reviews, the new film Brick might
belong on this list too.)
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
But intellectual integrity is an attribute that cannot overwhelm
character, or morality. The devil has intellectual integrity, as do
all sorts of Stalinists, Nazis and other vile ideologues and useful
idiots.
--Jonah Goldberg
Tony
creepy your skin begins to crawl befor ethe first reel is over, "No Business
Like Show Business"
--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
<extreme...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142785864....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
BillK
Heat.""
Wow. My favorite flick is reduced to noir nothingness and the poor
Arizona Wildcats got knocked out of the tournament. All in one day.
Damn, I can't handle it. I need a drink.
David Matthews
> "Christmas Holiday" is not a musical.
>
> Tom Moran
>
No "Christmas Holiday" is not a musical - Could "Cabaret" be regarded as
noir? - I haven't seen "Blues in the Night" but from it's description it
certainly qualifies. Can there be such a thing as noir comedy? - How about
Billy Wilder's "Foreign Affair".
A few British films open for discussion :-
"Night and the City"
" Get Carter" (Michael Caine"
"The Long Good Friday"
"It Always Rains on a Sunday"
Dave in Toronto
Cicero
"BillK" <rcgo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142830702.8...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
What about Nightmare Alley? I guess it wouldn't pass the tests.
Martin Koolhoven
>
> It's not even neo-noir.
P{lease explain...
--
Martin Koolhoven
http://www.knetterdefilm.nl
http://www.hetschnitzelparadijs.nl
Sean O'Hara
>>
> A few British films open for discussion :-
>
> "Night and the City" "
Night and the City is an American movie. The reason it was filmed in
London is Zanuck wanted Dassin out of the country while the shit was
hitting the fan with HUAC.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Professor Farnsworth: It's a little experiment that may well win me
the Nobel Prize.
Leela: In what field?
Professor Farnsworth: I don't care. They all pay the same.
-Futurama
Sean O'Hara
> In the Year of the Dog, the Great and Powerful extreme...@aol.com
> declared:
>
>> I've seen as many Noir movies as my mind can take in (a lot) but am
>> having trouble deciding which is best, this has been an ongoing
>> argument between me and several of my friends.
>> ideas?
>>
> Best films noir:
>
> Out of the Past
> Panic in the Streets
> Night and the City
> Fallen Angel
> Where the Sidewalk Ends
> Force of Evil
> Somewhere in the Night
> The Set-up
> Touch of Evil
>
And of course, after I hit send I think of three more:
Laura (I listed two Premingers and forgot that one!)
Black Angel
The Killers
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Jeff: Now normally when I swallow some of Julia's jewelry--
Steve: No no, Jeff please. "Normally" has never been used in that
sentence before.
-Coupling
Glitter Ninja
>Out of the Past
Okay, I'm convinced, I've heard this mentioned a lot on in this
thread. When I go on my next major movie spree, I'm buying this one. I
only have about four movies left from my last spree, so I'm getting low.
>Best guilty-pleasure noirs:
>The Damned Don't Cry
I always thought this was called "I Know Why The Damned Don't Cry" but
I could be mistaken. When I saw it on cable, the little cable schedule
blurb said the movie was crap, which is exactly why I watched it. I
just loved it. Some people hate the movie but I've seen a lot more
positive reviews of it lately, at least more positive than the cable
blurb.
>Point Blank
If anyone here hasn't seen "Point Blank" yet, just cut it the heck out
already and go see it. Stop whatever you're doing and watch the movie.
Leave work, get off the computer, don't worry about the zombies outside
the door, just GO SEE THIS MOVIE. I will even send you my VHS copy of
it if you need one.
Stacia
Feuillade
> Feuillade <Feui...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > It's not even neo-noir.
>
> Please explain...
>
Well, as I said in my post:
>> It's not even neo-noir. It's just a period detective film -- no
>> more a noir than "Murder on the Orient Express."
"Chinatown" is, as I explained, a detective film, just like "The
Maltese Falcon" (to which it was often compared at the time, mainly due
to the presence of John Huston in the cast), only a detective film set
in a previous era.
Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
self-consciousness until "Body Heat" in 1981, which was often compared
when it came out to "Double Indemnity."
This is not a knock on "Chinatown," which is one of my favorite films
of the 1970s. But I don't think it's either a noir or a neo-noir.
It's a great film, though.
Tom Moran
Jeff Duncanson
as early as 1955 or so.
The point being that some of the Noirs of the early and mid 50's
started to become influenced by what came before. I might even put
stuff like 'Kiss me Deadly" or "The Killing" in this class, although I
still think of them as true Noirs, not "prefix" noirs
One film I want to ask you about is Nicholas Ray's "Party Girl" - I
cite this movie because of the "Noirs have to be B&W" thing. I can't
come up with another film from the loosely defined Noir era - let's say
1945-1960 - that is in color. This one is by a director with a noir
pedigree, It has a classic noir hero in Robert Taylor as a crippled mob
lawyer, and classic noir bad guys in Lee J Cobb's crime boss and John
Ireland's hood.. However...it is in color and has Cyd Charisse doing a
couple of dance numbers. It's an oddity , and I've never been sure if
it falls under the noir umbrella or not.
your thoughts?
Jeff
snappo
> having trouble deciding which is best, this has been an ongoing
> argument between me and several of my friends.
> ideas?
>
For my information, is there a settled definition
on the title?
I tried a few on the web, but none of them mentioned
a mysterious, attractive and dangerous woman.
Where I heard about this element of the definition, I
cant remember.
--
snappo
David Matthews
>> A few British films open for discussion :-
>>
>> "Night and the City" "
>
> Night and the City is an American movie. The reason it was filmed in
> London is Zanuck wanted Dassin out of the country while the shit was
> hitting the fan with HUAC.
>
> --
> Sean O'Hara
Actually it is listed as a British movie but I agree with you that it is
actually an American film made on location in London - As well as the
reasons you cite it was made in London because TCF had funds frozen in
Britain by Britain"s then tough currency regulations - Most of the big
American companies set up companies in England to produce films there
because of that - Usually the key personnel and stars were American but
certain quotas of Brits on staff had to be met for it to qualify as a
British film.
Dave in Toronto
Martin Koolhoven
> Martin Koolhoven wrote:
>
> > Feuillade <Feui...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > It's not even neo-noir.
> >
> > Please explain...
> >
>
> Well, as I said in my post:
>
> >> It's not even neo-noir. It's just a period detective film -- no
> >> more a noir than "Murder on the Orient Express."
>
> "Chinatown" is, as I explained, a detective film, just like "The
> Maltese Falcon" (to which it was often compared at the time, mainly due
> to the presence of John Huston in the cast), only a detective film set
> in a previous era.
Many people concider Maltese Falcon also a film noir. IMDb for instance.
Feuillade
> Feuillade <Feui...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Martin Koolhoven wrote:
> >
> > > Feuillade <Feui...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It's not even neo-noir.
> > >
> > > Please explain...
> > >
> >
> > Well, as I said in my post:
> >
> > >> It's not even neo-noir. It's just a period detective film -- no
> > >> more a noir than "Murder on the Orient Express."
> >
> > "Chinatown" is, as I explained, a detective film, just like "The
> > Maltese Falcon" (to which it was often compared at the time, mainly due
> > to the presence of John Huston in the cast), only a detective film set
> > in a previous era.
>
> Many people concider Maltese Falcon also a film noir. IMDb for instance.
>
I know they do, but in my opinion they're incorrect.
One of the elements that made noir happen was World War II, as I argued
in print more than 20 years ago, and which recurs in a new book called
"Blackout: World War II and the Origins of Film Noir" by Sheri Chinen
Biesen.
It was once this country got into the war, with all the anxiety (and
blackout restrictions) that ensued, that the noir style fully emerged.
And the first full flowering of that style, where all the elements were
fully in place, is "Double Indemnity," which I consider to be the first
true film noir. It was that film's success (and the Oscar nominations
that went with it) that made possible the films that followed.
As I said in my college paper in the early 80s, calling "The Maltese
Falcon" a film noir is like calling "Troilus and Cressida" a Greek
Tragedy.
Tom Moran
Larry
> Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
> genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
> self-consciousness until "Body Heat" in 1981
Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
The Warriors...
While Body Heat did kick off the 80s wave of sexed-up noir remakes,
there had already been a definite noir revivial movement in the 70s, of
which Chinatown was an important part (no matter when it was set).
It's neo-noir.
Larry
> Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
> genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
Larry
> Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
> genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
Doubting Timus
which a driver picked up his lady and she asked, "Where we going?" and
he answered, "Mexico, if we're lucky."
In that film or another, the last of it was a running man caught by
small arms fire trying to run up an underpass embankment.
The only other noir memory I have directly from childhood is the one
with the lady who took a faceful of coffee and wore a veil over half her
face for the rest of the movie.
-Doubting Timus
Larry
noirs, Jeff.
(And sorry all for the duplicate replies to the other post. I'm on
google, and it's going nuts on me.)
Doubting Timus
> As I said in my college paper in the early 80s, calling "The Maltese
> Falcon" a film noir is like calling "Troilus and Cressida" a Greek
> Tragedy.
No, no, according to opinions expressed right here, T & C would be
romance, because the lovers were sundered. Sort of an Annie Hall in togas.
Larry
And of course, Sandra Dee lifting up her skirt in A Summer Place
supposedly caused Mickey Rourke to burst "right through the bottom of
the popcorn box".
But definitely no film noir discussion. I don't think it's in
Barcelona either.
Halmyre
Don't know the first but the other is Gloria Grahame in 'The Big Heat'.
--
Halmyre
ceci, n'est pas un signature
W. Lydecker
CHINATOWN as noir. Whether i's neo or not isn't that important. A
"spaghetti" Western is still a Western.
Feuillade
few centuries after the last Greek Tragedian was dead.
Tom Moran
Feuillade
>
> Feuillade wrote:
>
> > Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
> > genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
> > self-consciousness until "Body Heat" in 1981
>
> Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
> The Warriors...
>
None of those films garnered comparison to film noir at the time -- and
I saw all of them when they were originally released.
None of them qualifies as neo-noir, which, as I've already stated,
begins in 1981 with "Body Heat." That film was to neo-noir what its
model, "Double Indemnity," was to noir. Its success made the others
possible.
But even then we didn't see a rush of neo-noirs to cash in on "Body
Heat's" success the way "Double Indemnity" caused a rush of noirs to go
into production.
> While Body Heat did kick off the 80s wave of sexed-up noir remakes,
> there had already been a definite noir revivial movement in the 70s, of
> which Chinatown was an important part (no matter when it was set).
> It's neo-noir.
>
Nope. Sorry. It's just a detective film (albeit a very good one).
Not neo-noir at all.
Tom Moran
Feuillade
>
> Foster Hirsch, Alain Silver, and the Big Book of Noir, all refer to
> CHINATOWN as noir.
Some of them refer to "The Maltese Falcon" as a noir as well.
They're wrong on both counts.
Tom Moran
David Oberman
>Leave Her to Heaven and Niagara are usually cited as examples of color
>noirs, Jeff.
I don't want to get stuck in the noir miasma, but Fuller's "House of
Bamboo" is also color.
>(And sorry all for the duplicate replies to the other post. I'm on
>google, and it's going nuts on me.)
That's okay. It's the least of the annoying qualities on display in
this group!
(P.S. I mean that in a *good* way.)
David Oberman
>The only other noir memory I have directly from childhood is the one
>with the lady who took a faceful of coffee and wore a veil over half her
>face for the rest of the movie.
That's probably "The Big Heat" you're remembering. Lee Marvin tries to
forcefeed coffee into Gloria Grahame's gullet, & it just splatters all
over her face. In the next scene, she has developed scar tissue that
would ordinarily take eight months to two years to develop. But that's
Fritz Lang's way of telling us that time is relative.
David Oberman
It's like the endless debate over "classicism" in Brahms, so now he
wears the "neo-classicist" mantle.
Jim Beaver
"snappo" <Ti...@flies.com> wrote in message
news:ITxTf.11852$u31....@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
>
> For my information, is there a settled definition
> on the title?
> I tried a few on the web, but none of them mentioned
> a mysterious, attractive and dangerous woman.
> Where I heard about this element of the definition, I
> cant remember.
Over on the Rara-Avis group (which discusses hardboiled crime fiction), the
debate over what's noir and what's hardboiled, etc., etc., has been going on
for years. Great arguments on both sides. There are some who insist that
film noir MUST be in black-and-white, because that is part of how it was
first defined by the French critics who invented the term. Others insist
that it contain specific elements (elements as broad as "a dark and sinister
atmosphere" -- which to my mind would make THE OLD DARK HOUSE a film noir,
which it isn't -- or thematic elements such as a doomed protagonist in a
world ruled by nihilism, again etc., etc.) Also generally insisted upon is
the post-war time frame of the film's creation, since film noir was first
noted and described in post-war works and thus cannot be applied to films
made before that era (no more so than a film made in the early Twenties
could be called a talkie). The arguments go on and on and on, and I suppose
they will here, too. The fact that "the IMDb" (as if that site, almost
completely filled with submissions from the general public, were some
specific entity with a single thought process) calls some films "noir" means
simply that someone, educated in the terminology or not, decided to submit
the definition, accurate or not. THE MALTESE FALCON does not fit the
classical definition(s) of noir for any number of reasons, but that doesn't
stop people from labeling ANY forties crime drama a film noir.
For what it's worth, someone had a nice distinction between noir and
hardboiled (which FALCON most definitely is) over on Rara-Avis: "... when
the character is 'f***ed on page 1 and it doesn't get any better.' There's
a great quote from the movie DETOUR which catches the feel of noir for me:
'That's life - Whichever way you turn, fate sticks out a foot to trip you
up.' For me, 'hardboiled' holds out some hope, whereas 'noir' doesn't.
There's something compelling about a noir protagonist that keeps you
reading, and, sometimes, hoping that he'll win through, even though you know
that any light at the end of the tunnel is just a really, really big train."
But there was an even pithier distinction made by another member of the
Rara-Avis group:
Hardboiled=tough
Noir=screwed
Jim Beaver
Feuillade
<snip>
> Also generally insisted upon is the post-war time frame of
> the film's creation, since film noir was first noted and described
> in post-war works and thus cannot be applied to films made
> before that era (no more so than a film made in the early Twenties
> could be called a talkie).
This doesn't make sense to me.
I thought (and hope someone will correct me) that one of the reasons
that French critics coined the term film noir was that it was only
*after* the war (and, of course, the end of the occupation, when
American films were verboten) that they saw all the American films that
were made *during* the war -- and seeing them all at once was what made
them see the trend, and therefore helped them come up with a name for
it.
So they may have seen the films after the war, but the films they were
seeing (like "Double Indemnity" and "Murder My Sweet") were made during
the war.
Tom Moran
Larry
>
>>Larry wrote:
>>
>>Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
>> The Warriors...
>>
>None of those films garnered comparison to film noir at the time
You mean The Long Goodbye (and the two 70s Marlowe remakes with Robert
Mitchum) didn't garner comparison to the Marlowe films of the 40s?
Thieves Like Us didn't evoke any mention of They Live By Night when it
was released?
> -- and I saw all of them when they were originally released.
As you know, it often takes a bit of perspective to identify these
cycles. Even the original film noir movement wasn't explicitly
recognized until years later.
>But even then we didn't see a rush of neo-noirs to cash in on "Body Heat's" success
Yes, we kind of did. Remakes (some direct, some oblique) of The
Postman Always Rings Twice, I, the Jury, Laura (Sharkey's Machine), Out
of the Past (Against All Odds), Body and Soul, Breathless, The Big
Clock (No Way Out), Dark Passage (Johnny Handsome), D.O.A., plus sendup
Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, and noir-drenched films like Thief, True
Confessions, Still of the Night, Pope of Greenwich Village, etc. all
showed up pretty soon after.
> the way "Double Indemnity" caused a rush of noirs to go into production.
Except they weren't callng them noirs.
David Oberman
>> the way "Double Indemnity" caused a rush of noirs to go into production.
>
>Except they weren't callng them noirs.
This is all World Noir II all over again!
Feuillade
> > Feuillade wrote:
> >
> >>Larry wrote:
> >>
> >>Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
> >> The Warriors...
> >>
> >None of those films garnered comparison to film noir at the time
>
> You mean The Long Goodbye (and the two 70s Marlowe remakes with Robert
> Mitchum) didn't garner comparison to the Marlowe films of the 40s?
> Thieves Like Us didn't evoke any mention of They Live By Night when it
> was released?
"The Long Goodbye" was treated as a quirky jazz riff on Chandler's
novel, not as any kind of varant on a film genre.
The Mitchum films were treated as bad films -- which they were.
And "Thieves Like Us" was not seen as an attempt to revive a genre, no.
> > -- and I saw all of them when they were originally released.
>
> As you know, it often takes a bit of perspective to identify these
> cycles. Even the original film noir movement wasn't explicitly
> recognized until years later.
>
As far as I know, no one thought about those films as any kind of
variant on noir fr the rest of the century -- which seems like a bit
long to wait.
> >But even then we didn't see a rush of neo-noirs to cash in on "Body Heat's" success
>
> Yes, we kind of did. Remakes (some direct, some oblique) of The
> Postman Always Rings Twice, I, the Jury, Laura (Sharkey's Machine), Out
> of the Past (Against All Odds), Body and Soul, Breathless, The Big
> Clock (No Way Out), Dark Passage (Johnny Handsome), D.O.A., plus sendup
> Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, and noir-drenched films like Thief, True
> Confessions, Still of the Night, Pope of Greenwich Village, etc. all
> showed up pretty soon after.
>
Remaking a noir film is not what neo-noir is about.
Of the films you mentioned the only one that genuinely merits being
called a neo noir is "Sharkey's Machine."
Another one that merits being called neo noir that you didn't mention
is "Cutter's Way."
A period film that apes the stylistic quirks of noir is not neo noir.
Neo noir is about using the conventions of the genre in a contemporary
context.
>> the way "Double Indemnity" caused a rush of noirs to go into production.
>
> Except they weren't callng them noirs.
No, they didn't. But people at the time knew they wer seeing a
different kind of movie -- even if they didn't come up with a name for
them that stuck (as opposed to "red meat" thrillers, which is what they
were called originally) for a few years.
Tom Moran
BillK
this: W. Lydecker, my new best friend, has cited three more credible
sources that claim it is film noir. This is a total of five credible,
expert sources that classify Chinatown as film noir - not as
nuttin'-noir or neo-noir, but as film noir.
I can now cite five expert witnesses, by name, who say that Chinatown
is film noir. Can you or John cite five who agree that the period of
film noir ended in 1960? I would like to read what these five have to
say.
My understanding of the classic film noir period is "post WWII". Well,
"post WWII" was all done by the mid-1950s. The country had moved on in
any way you want to look at it - mood/outlook/economy/world
situation/you-name-it. I would like to understand how anybody could
take it out to 1960. And if it doesn't go out that far, we can all
kiss goodbye Touch of Evil and a few others as film noir.
George Peatty
Ninja) wrote:
>>Out of the Past
>
> Okay, I'm convinced, I've heard this mentioned a lot on in this
>thread. When I go on my next major movie spree, I'm buying this one. I
>only have about four movies left from my last spree, so I'm getting low.
What you said to us about Point Blank, I saw to you about Out of the Past.
One of the best films noir ever done, and one of my favorite movies.
George Peatty
>It was once this country got into the war, with all the anxiety (and
>blackout restrictions) that ensued, that the noir style fully emerged.
>And the first full flowering of that style, where all the elements were
>fully in place, is "Double Indemnity," which I consider to be the first
>true film noir. It was that film's success (and the Oscar nominations
>that went with it) that made possible the films that followed.
Fixing a time period for film noir is difficult, because few agree on
groundrules. What you say about the stylistic elements of noir, especially
its visual style, is certainly true, but the stories ..like those of James
M. Cain, which inform so much of noir, were written in the 30's. The angst
which gave birth to film noir likely rose more from the depression than the
second world war.
John Harkness
wrote:
No idea about the first, but the second is Gloria Grahame in The Big
Heat.
John Harkness
John Harkness
You should really read Schrader's essay.
Anyway.
There ARE noir during the 40s. Noir reaches its full flowering (or
festering) in the post-war environment, and the longer it goes, the
noirer it gets.
John Harkness
Sean O'Hara
> Larry wrote:
>
>>Feuillade wrote:
>>
>>>Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
>>>genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
>>>self-consciousness until "Body Heat" in 1981
>>
>>Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
>>The Warriors...
>>
> None of those films garnered comparison to film noir at the time -- and
> I saw all of them when they were originally released.
>
> None of them qualifies as neo-noir, which, as I've already stated,
> begins in 1981 with "Body Heat."
Maybe if you repeat it often enough, it'll become true.
And if Body Heat's the first neo-noir, what do you call Point Blank?
Even if Boorman wasn't familiar with noir as defined by the French,
he was clearly making a movie in the style of the films now
recognized as noir.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Oily: Mate in 143 moves.
Fatbot: Oh, poo. You win again.
-Futurama
David Oberman
>What you said to us about Point Blank, I saw to you about Out of the Past.
>One of the best films noir ever done, and one of my favorite movies.
Don't forget one of the greatest of films noirs: "Beyond the Forest"
(1949).
Sean O'Hara
> Sean O'Hara <sean...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Out of the Past
>
>
> Okay, I'm convinced, I've heard this mentioned a lot on in this
> thread. When I go on my next major movie spree, I'm buying this one. I
> only have about four movies left from my last spree, so I'm getting low.
>
typically associated with noir -- the the world-weary private
detective, the double- and triple-crosses, the flashbacks, the
fatalism, the femme fatale. It's really a toss-up between this and
The Killers over which is more quintessentially noir -- The Killers
has an insurance investigator instead of a PI, but the main
character is a boxer.
>>Best guilty-pleasure noirs:
>
>>The Damned Don't Cry
>
> I always thought this was called "I Know Why The Damned Don't Cry" but
> I could be mistaken.
The DVD just says The Damned Don't Cry.
> When I saw it on cable, the little cable schedule
> blurb said the movie was crap, which is exactly why I watched it. I
> just loved it. Some people hate the movie but I've seen a lot more
> positive reviews of it lately, at least more positive than the cable
> blurb.
>
It's a fun movie though not too deep. The main attraction is seeing
the story told from the femme fatale's point of view -- though it
might've been better with a different lead; I have a hard time
buying 1940's Joan Crawford as the object of desire for all these men.
>>Point Blank
>
> If anyone here hasn't seen "Point Blank" yet, just cut it the heck out
> already and go see it. Stop whatever you're doing and watch the movie.
> Leave work, get off the computer, don't worry about the zombies outside
> the door, just GO SEE THIS MOVIE. I will even send you my VHS copy of
> it if you need one.
>
And then we can all have arguments about whether it has something in
common with The Sixth Sense.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
[Sodomy] can lead to marriage and procreation.
-Charles A. Rosenthal, Jr.
Feuillade
> In the Year of the Dog, the Great and Powerful Feuillade declared:
> > Larry wrote:
> >
> >>Feuillade wrote:
> >>
> >>>Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
> >>>genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
> >>>self-consciousness until "Body Heat" in 1981
> >>
> >>Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
> >>The Warriors...
> >>
> > None of those films garnered comparison to film noir at the time -- and
> > I saw all of them when they were originally released.
> >
> > None of them qualifies as neo-noir, which, as I've already stated,
> > begins in 1981 with "Body Heat."
>
> Maybe if you repeat it often enough, it'll become true.
>
It's true whether you care to believe it or not.
Tom Moran
David Matthews
>>I have a subset question. When I was a little kid, I saw a movie in
>>which a driver picked up his lady and she asked, "Where we going?" and
>>he answered, "Mexico, if we're lucky."
>>
>>In that film or another, the last of it was a running man caught by
>>small arms fire trying to run up an underpass embankment.
Long shot stab in the dark but could it be "Across the Bridge" with Rod
Steiger. Go to :-
http://www.britmovie.co.uk/studios/pinewood/filmography/1950/1957/001.html
for details.
Dave in Toronto
John Harkness
wrote:
>In the Year of the Dog, the Great and Powerful Feuillade declared:
>> Larry wrote:
>>
>>>Feuillade wrote:
>>>
>>>>Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
>>>>genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
>>>>self-consciousness until "Body Heat" in 1981
>>>
>>>Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
>>>The Warriors...
>>>
>> None of those films garnered comparison to film noir at the time -- and
>> I saw all of them when they were originally released.
>>
>> None of them qualifies as neo-noir, which, as I've already stated,
>> begins in 1981 with "Body Heat."
>
>Maybe if you repeat it often enough, it'll become true.
>
>And if Body Heat's the first neo-noir, what do you call Point Blank?
>Even if Boorman wasn't familiar with noir as defined by the French,
>he was clearly making a movie in the style of the films now
>recognized as noir.
Not really.
For one thing, much of Point Blank takes place in blinding sunlight.
Boorman's really trying to find a new vocabulary for the crime film
(the zoom lens, for one thing, is a particularly anti-noir device
that anchors Point Blank as a film defiantly of its moment in the
60s.) Rather than trying to explore a past style.
What Body Heat is, more or less, is the first noir pastiche of the
modern era -- the first neo noirs are mid-70s films, I think -- Night
Moves and The Long Goodbye come to mind -- the latter, in particular
uses film noir conventions as a wall to bounce Marlowe against.
John Harkness
Your Pal Brian
> wrote:
>
> >I have a subset question. When I was a little kid, I saw a movie in
> >which a driver picked up his lady and she asked, "Where we going?" and
> >he answered, "Mexico, if we're lucky."
Didn't Dark Passage end with a reunion in Mexico? I don't remember this
exact scene, but I remember lots of driving.
Brian
W. Lydecker
Noir is *not* a genre but more a quality "..of tone and mood."
Thus we can get urban crime noirs; old west (PURSUED; BLOOD on the
MOON) noirs; social problem noirs, etc. Some actors like Stanwyck;
Lizabeth Scott; Charles McGraw and Robt. Mitchum seemed to thrive in
them.
Unfortunately, Schrader commented "By the middle fifties film noir
had ground to a halt." This was later misinterpreted to mean some stone
tablet came down and proclaimed "I say unto you Noir is kaput!"
Schrader's article came out one year before the release of CHINATOWN.
W. Lydecker
"Where we going?" and he answered, "Mexico, if we're lucky." >>
Sounds like that Mitchum film with the quickly forgotten Faith D...
Kinda noirish.
Glitter Ninja
It's already ordered and in the mail, my friend. I hope it gets here
before Friday so we can have a movie party this weekend. I've still got
"The Virgin Spring", the third "Dead or Alive", and "La Captive" to
watch.
Stacia
John Harkness
wrote:
Which is not a film noir, so what's your point?
John Harkness
David Matthews
"W. Lydecker" <janu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20899-44...@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
"Where Danger Lives" with Faith Domergue. Actually she had a surprisingly
long career spanning 33 years appearing in 51 movies and TV shows Wasn't
she *discovered* by Howard Hughes?
Dave in Toronto
David Oberman
>> >I have a subset question. When I was a little kid, I saw a movie in
>> >which a driver picked up his lady and she asked, "Where we going?" and
>> >he answered, "Mexico, if we're lucky."
>
>Didn't Dark Passage end with a reunion in Mexico? I don't remember this
>exact scene, but I remember lots of driving.
Yeah, I think so. She met him at the bus station. No, wait, it was a
train station. Didn't she meet him somewhere & they talked about going
to Mexico?
Doubting Timus
> Long shot stab in the dark but could it be "Across the Bridge" with Rod
> Steiger.
Thanks, Dave in Toronto, but I'm afraid that's a little late in the day.
But, then, if there's a scene where the cops converge on the perp's
auto which is stopped under an overpass and they blast him while he's
running up the embankment under the road...
Doubting Timus
> Some thirty some years ago, Paul Schrader pointed out (ala Durgnat)
> Noir is *not* a genre but more a quality "..of tone and mood."
Didn't Richard Widmark say it was all a matter of economics?
"We shot in black and white because we couldn't afford color."
John Harkness
wrote:
>W. Lydecker wrote:
An interesting perspective that tidily ignores the fact that more
HOllywood films were shot in black and white than in colour well into
the 50s -- Colour was "special" in the 40s, a sure sign of an
A-picture with money to burn. I mean, Wyler's as A-list as any
director in Hollywood in that period, and I don't think he made a
color film until The Big Country.
John Harkness
Martin Koolhoven
A shame you didn't read the point she was making with Point Blank
--
Martin Koolhoven
http://www.knetterdefilm.nl
http://www.hetschnitzelparadijs.nl
Martin Koolhoven
> Larry wrote:
> >
> > Feuillade wrote:
> >
> > > Neo-noir is a conscious playing with the conventions of the film noir
> > > genre but in a contemporary setting. We don't see that sort of
> > > self-consciousness until "Body Heat" in 1981
> >
> > Yes, we do. The Long Goodbye, Night Moves, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver,
> > The Warriors...
> >
>
> None of those films garnered comparison to film noir at the time
Personally, I don't see why, but I've always read articles about Taxi
Driver in which they compared it.
Martin Koolhoven
> What Body Heat is, more or less, is the first noir pastiche of the
> modern era -- the first neo noirs are mid-70s films
But is neo noir nothing more than film noir in a different time? Accept
for the color and the 80's fashion, I see no difference.
What is Lynch making then? Post Modern Neo Noir?
John Harkness
Koolhoven) wrote:
>John Harkness <jhar...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> What Body Heat is, more or less, is the first noir pastiche of the
>> modern era -- the first neo noirs are mid-70s films
>
>But is neo noir nothing more than film noir in a different time? Accept
>for the color and the 80's fashion, I see no difference.
>
it's more that they're making films incluenced by film noir.
As to a different time, as far as I'mconcerned, that's crucial.
NOIR IS PERIOD. If it wasn't made between 1940 and 1960, it's not film
noir.
>What is Lynch making then? Post Modern Neo Noir?
David Lynch is making David Lynch movies.
John Harkness
David Matthews
"Doubting Timus" <woe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dvo11...@enews2.newsguy.com...
I also remember a famous noir cameraman (forget who) say cynically that his
famous lighting was a perfect way for the studios to hide the fact that
their sets were kind of chintzy and that they often used the same ones over
and over again in different productions.
Dave in Toronto
Glitter Ninja
>On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:54 +0100, Martin Koolhoven wrote:
>>What is Lynch making then? Post Modern Neo Noir?
>David Lynch is making David Lynch movies.
Lynch is definitely a genre of his own. Kind of like how Meat Loaf is
his own musical genre.
Stacia
W. Lydecker
and run out of colour film."
BillK
I don't think that people who cite Schrader as a reason why Chinatown
is not noir are necessarily reading what he wrote in the full spirit
and context of his ideas. I just located and read Schrader. "Notes on
Film Noir". Paul Schrader. 1972
Schrader characterizes film noir by style and period (and, perhaps,
national origin), as you folks have indicated.
Schrader identifies three phases of the period - war years
(1941-1946), post-war years (1945-1949) and the psychotic action and
suicidal impulse years (1949-1953). He considers film noir to have
begun with The Maltese Falcon and ended with Touch of Evil. "Film noir
can stretch its outer limits from The Maltese Falcon (1941) to Touch of
Evil (1958), and almost every dramatic Hollywood film from 1941 to 1953
contains some noir elements".
There is no reference to 1960. Schrader says the period of film noir
ends in 1953 (and, no, 1953 is not a typo). But then he goes on to
talk about "stragglers": "Appropriately, the masterpiece of film noir
was a straggler, Kiss Me Deadly, produced in 1955."
There is a reason why Schrader ended the third period in 1953 -
Hollywood basically stopped making movies in the noir style after 1953.
Note that Schrader DOES include as film noir movies that a) fit the
style he defines and b) clearly fall OUT of his endpoint date: "By the
middle Fifties, film noir had ground to a halt. There were a few
notable stragglers, Kiss Me Deadly the Lewis/Alton The Big Combo, and
film noir's epitaph, Touch of Evil, but for the most part a new style
of crime film had become popular".
Schrader clearly accepts stragglers, as long as they fit the style.
And, not only does he accept period exceptions, he includes as a
bookend film a picture that most would consider short on noir style
points - The Maltese Falcon. I read Schrader, unlike some of the folks
posting messages here, as *inclusive* when it comes to acceptance of
what is noir. He ended the period because he generally could not find
movies being made that fit the style after 1953. When he found
exceptions to the period that fit the style he included them. Clearly.
On this basis, I think Schrader would have been much less concerned in
placing Chinatown into the realm of film noir on the basis of period
than on style.
Net: My read of Schrader tells me that, yes, he was about style and
period in regards to film noir. But he was about period only because
he stopped finding examples of the style. Where he found films that
fit the style, he included them - he was flexible and inclusive.
There are tangible examples in the article that prove this, as I have
pointed out. On the basis of style, he had to love Chinatown, right
down to the Eastern European origins of the director and the struggle
of the director to get the movie to end the way a classic noir has to
end. My read on Schrader is that he would have viewed the movie and
said "Yesss! What a great straggler, an even greater masterpiece than
Kiss Me Deadly." - just like a lot of other commentators.
Doubting Timus
> I also remember a famous noir cameraman (forget who) say cynically that his
> famous lighting was a perfect way for the studios to hide the fact that
> their sets were kind of chintzy and that they often used the same ones over
> and over again in different productions.
That certainly strikes a chord with me. I have dreams with minimalist
sets for the simple reason I have no visual memory, or, some say, sense
at all. All my dreams are noir; lit in spots but making use of shadow
to hide the eternal void.
snappo
"Jim Beaver" <jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote in message
news:GbCTf.7117$%m4....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "snappo" <Ti...@flies.com> wrote in message
> news:ITxTf.11852$u31....@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
>>
>> For my information, is there a settled definition
>> on the title?
>> I tried a few on the web, but none of them mentioned
>> a mysterious, attractive and dangerous woman.
>> Where I heard about this element of the definition, I
>> cant remember.
>
> Over on the Rara-Avis group (which discusses hardboiled crime fiction),
> the debate over what's noir and what's hardboiled, etc., etc., has been
> going on for years. Great arguments on both sides. There are some who
> insist that film noir MUST be in black-and-white, because that is part of
> how it was first defined by the French critics who invented the term.
> Others insist that it contain specific elements (elements as broad as "a
> dark and sinister atmosphere" -- which to my mind would make THE OLD DARK
> HOUSE a film noir, which it isn't -- or thematic elements such as a doomed
> protagonist in a world ruled by nihilism, again etc., etc.) Also
> generally insisted upon is the post-war time frame of the film's creation,
> since film noir was first noted and described in post-war works and thus
> cannot be applied to films made before that era (no more so than a film
> made in the early Twenties could be called a talkie). The arguments go on
> and on and on, and I suppose they will here, too. The fact that "the
> IMDb" (as if that site, almost completely filled with submissions from the
> general public, were some specific entity with a single thought process)
> calls some films "noir" means simply that someone, educated in the
> terminology or not, decided to submit the definition, accurate or not.
> THE MALTESE FALCON does not fit the classical definition(s) of noir for
> any number of reasons, but that doesn't stop people from labeling ANY
> forties crime drama a film noir.
>
> For what it's worth, someone had a nice distinction between noir and
> hardboiled (which FALCON most definitely is) over on Rara-Avis: "... when
> the character is 'f***ed on page 1 and it doesn't get any better.'
> There's a great quote from the movie DETOUR which catches the feel of noir
> for me: 'That's life - Whichever way you turn, fate sticks out a foot to
> trip you up.' For me, 'hardboiled' holds out some hope, whereas 'noir'
> doesn't. There's something compelling about a noir protagonist that keeps
> you reading, and, sometimes, hoping that he'll win through, even though
> you know that any light at the end of the tunnel is just a really, really
> big train."
>
> But there was an even pithier distinction made by another member of the
> Rara-Avis group:
>
> Hardboiled=tough
> Noir=screwed
>
> Jim Beaver
Thanks for your input.
With reference to the (possible) female element defining
film noir, I came accross this :
http://www.filmsite.org/filmnoir.html
(extract)
"The earliest film noirs were detective thrillers, with plots
and themes often taken from adaptations of literary works
- preferably from best-selling, hard-boiled, pulp novels
and crime fiction by Raymond Chandler, James M. Cain,
Dashiell Hammett, or Cornell Woolrich. Very often, a
film noir story was developed around a cynical,
hard-hearted, disillusioned male character [e.g.,
Robert Mitchum, Fred MacMurray, or Humphrey Bogart]
who encountered a beautiful but promiscuous, amoral,
double-dealing and seductive femme fatale [e.g.,
Mary Astor, Veronica Lake, Jane Greer, Barbara Stanwyck,
or Lana Turner]. She would use her feminine wiles and
come-hither sexuality to manipulate him into becoming
the fall guy - often following a murder. After a betrayal or
double-cross, she was frequently destroyed as well, often
at the cost of the hero's life. As women during the war
period were given new-found independence and better
job-earning power in the homeland during the war, they
would suffer -- on the screen -- in these films of the 40s."
--
snappo
David Matthews
My dreams are of epic scope, some even have background music - I can hardly
wait to get to bed every night and find out what I'm going to dream about
next.
Dave in Toronto
" Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
David Oberman
<dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Dave in Toronto
>
>" Is all that we see or seem
> But a dream within a dream?"
"Dream, though your heart is breaking/
Dream, though your bowels are aching"
Martin Koolhoven
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:54 +0100, MYN...@xs4all.nlSPAMSHIT (Martin
> Koolhoven) wrote:
>
> >John Harkness <jhar...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> What Body Heat is, more or less, is the first noir pastiche of the
> >> modern era -- the first neo noirs are mid-70s films
> >
> >But is neo noir nothing more than film noir in a different time? Accept
> >for the color and the 80's fashion, I see no difference.
> >
> it's more that they're making films incluenced by film noir.
Some (most) of the original film noirs were influenced by film noir.
>
> As to a different time, as far as I'mconcerned, that's crucial.
>
> NOIR IS PERIOD. If it wasn't made between 1940 and 1960, it's not film
> noir.
I find that rediculous.
>
>
> >What is Lynch making then? Post Modern Neo Noir?
>
> David Lynch is making David Lynch movies.
Sure. Aldrich was making Aldrich films. My favorite Aldrich is a film
noir, however.
Sean O'Hara
I've seen several sources claim that noir lighting originated in the
Val Lewton horror productions, which did use atmospheric lighting
because RKO couldn't afford sets as good as the ones Universal
horror films used.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
"But I don't want new boobs for Christmas," Kara Lynn said, "I want
a Volkswagen."
-Carl Hiaasen, /Tourist Season/
John Harkness
Koolhoven) wrote:
>John Harkness <jhar...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:54 +0100, MYN...@xs4all.nlSPAMSHIT (Martin
>> Koolhoven) wrote:
>>
>> >John Harkness <jhar...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >> What Body Heat is, more or less, is the first noir pastiche of the
>> >> modern era -- the first neo noirs are mid-70s films
>> >
>> >But is neo noir nothing more than film noir in a different time? Accept
>> >for the color and the 80's fashion, I see no difference.
>> >
>> it's more that they're making films incluenced by film noir.
>
>Some (most) of the original film noirs were influenced by film noir.
>
In the sense that they were all products of their time. None of them
was saying let's copy that style of film.
>>
>> As to a different time, as far as I'mconcerned, that's crucial.
>>
>> NOIR IS PERIOD. If it wasn't made between 1940 and 1960, it's not film
>> noir.
>
>
>I find that rediculous.
>
Elements of noir
1) visual stylization -- eccentric camera angles, high contrast
lighting, shadows, shadows, shadows, especially venetian blinds.
2) general fondness for the urban crime story, though not necessarily
-- there are noir westerns.
3) social mood -- a dark underside to war time optimism, a radical
post-war insecurity -- all those lethal dames turn up when the GIs
come home and wonder where their jobs are. -- plus and this
particularly turns up during the Parnell Hearings -- we've got rid of
the big enemy and know we have the enemy within. (AND Those damn
commies, and "are you waving the flag at me?")
Interesting that there's no noir at all in the 60s. The style
disappears for a number of reasons -- the gathering of Eisenhower era
complacency, Kennedy era optimism, financial well-being, and, of
course, the gradual drying out and falling away of that essential
element of film noir, black and white cinematography (there are a very
few colour noirs, but not many). Also, the way that B-movies switched
away from the urban crime film to cheap horror and teen films. Grown
ups start staying home and watching television, and the double bill
starts a long slow death. Hard to have B movies without double bills.
Noir is the cinematic manifestation of a specific PERIOD of American
and Hollywood history.
If it's made after 1960, it isn't film noir.
>> >What is Lynch making then? Post Modern Neo Noir?
>>
>> David Lynch is making David Lynch movies.
>
>Sure. Aldrich was making Aldrich films. My favorite Aldrich is a film
>noir, however.
David Lynch is a genre unto himself, and he's most defiantly NOT a
film brat -- he doesn't come from a film background and isn't a
quoter. The psychosexual terrain of Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive
has certain noir-ish qualities, but I don't think Lynch is referencing
noir or even thinking about noir.
John Harkness
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>"We shot in black and white because we couldn't afford color."
I wonder what the return on investment would have been if they shot
the TV show "Sea Hunt" in color".