Caesar; MOAI and "greatness" in Twelfth Night (Shakespeare)
Henry Hanna
CAESAR
Et tu, Brute! Then fall, Caesar.
Dies
He says, "Then fall, Caesar."
What does this mean?
He is telling himself to fall?
>
> Just watched Twelfth Night with Helena Bohn
> Carter. Very good.
>
> 1.
> http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/twelfth_night/
> twelfth_night.2.5.html
> "M, O, A, I, doth sway my life."
> Someone please confirm that "MOAI" is a riddle
> with no answer.
>
> 2.
> Also, what made this "greatness" quote so popular?
> "but be not afraid of greatness: some
> are born great, some achieve greatness, and some
> have greatness thrust upon 'em."
>
> Henry.
>
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Art Neuendorffer
>
> CAESAR
> Et tu, Brute! Then fall, Caesar.
> Dies
>
> He says, "Then fall, Caesar."
> What does this mean?
> He is telling himself to fall?
He's telling himself that it is pointless at that point to resist
falling.
> > Just watched Twelfth Night with Helena Bohn
> > Carter. Very good.
> >
> > 1.
> > http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/twelfth_night/
> > twelfth_night.2.5.html
> > "M, O, A, I, doth sway my life."
> > Someone please confirm that "MOAI" is a riddle
> > with no answer.
---------------------------------------------------
Twelfth Night Act 2, Scene 5
MALVOLIO:
M, O, A, I; this simulation is not as the former:
and yet, to crush this a little, it would bow to me,
for EVERy one of these letters are in my name.
Soft! here follows prose.
[Reads]
'If this fall into thy hand, re-VOL-ve.
M A L V
O I L O
> > 2.
> > Also, what made this "greatness" quote so popular?
> > "but be not afraid of greatness: some
> > are born great, some achieve greatness, and some
> > have greatness thrust upon 'em."
It's because of the whirlegigge of time:
---------------------------------------------------
Twelfth Night Act 2, Scene 5
Mal. Be not afraid of greatnesse: 'twas well writ.
Ol. What meanst thou by that Maluolio?
Mal. Some are borne great.
Ol. Ha?
Mal. Some atcheeue greatnesse.
Ol. What sayst thou?
Mal. And some haue greatnesse thrust vpon them.
Ol. Heauen restore thee.
---------------------------------------------------
Twelfth Night Act 5, Scene 1
Ol. Alas poore Foole, how haue they baffel'd thee?
Clo. Why some are borne great, some atchieue great-
nesse, and some haue greatnesse throwne vpon them. I
was one sir, in this Enterlude, one sir Topas sir, but that's
all one: By the Lotd Foole, I am not mad: but do you re-
member, Madam, why laugh you at such a barren rascall,
and you smile not he's gag'd: and thus the whirlegigge
of time, brings in his reuenges.
---------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
Lewis Mammel
Henry Hanna wrote:
>
>
>
> CAESAR
> Et tu, Brute! Then fall, Caesar.
> Dies
>
> He says, "Then fall, Caesar."
> What does this mean?
> He is telling himself to fall?
"And you, Brutus?"
means that this is unfathomable treachery.
"Then fall, Caesar"
means that such treachery is too great to be
anticipated or resisted - "Then I give up."
Lew Mammel, Jr.
smw
Lewis Mammel wrote:
>
> Henry Hanna wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>CAESAR
>> Et tu, Brute! Then fall, Caesar.
>> Dies
>>
>>He says, "Then fall, Caesar."
>>What does this mean?
>>He is telling himself to fall?
>>
>
> "And you, Brutus?"
>
> means that this is unfathomable treachery.
"Et tu" doesn't mean "and you" but "you, too?", "even you?" -- et from
etiam.
Lewis Mammel
That's just what it's translated as. It really IS "And you, Brutus?" but
it MEANS "this is unfathomable treachery".
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case
The vocative case is the case used for a noun identifying
the person being addressed, found in Latin among other languages.
In Latin the vocative case of a noun is the same as the nominative,
except for masculine singular second declension nouns. An example
would be the famous line from Shakespeare, "Et tu, Brute?"
(And you, Brutus?, commonly translated as You too, Brutus?),
where "Brute" is the vocative case, whilst "Brutus" would be the
nominative case.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
smw
Lewis Mammel wrote:
>
> smw wrote:
>
>>Lewis Mammel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Henry Hanna wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>CAESAR
>>>> Et tu, Brute! Then fall, Caesar.
>>>> Dies
>>>>
>>>>He says, "Then fall, Caesar."
>>>>What does this mean?
>>>>He is telling himself to fall?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"And you, Brutus?"
>>>
>>>means that this is unfathomable treachery.
>>>
>>"Et tu" doesn't mean "and you" but "you, too?", "even you?" -- et from
>>etiam.
>>
>
> That's just what it's translated as.
Yeah, and it's translated as that because "et" can mean both "and" and
"even", and both syntax and context suggest that "et" here means "even."
> It really IS "And you, Brutus?"
No, it really IS NOT.
> but
> it MEANS "this is unfathomable treachery".
Sure, I have no quarrel with that. Only, it means that much better if
you translate "et" as "even" or "too." I _have_ forgotten most of my
nine years of Latin, but it still enough for this one.
Try Perseus instead of Wikipedia to give you a flavor of et's range.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3D%2316279
smw
Don Tuite wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:22:00 GMT, smw <sm...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>"Et tu" doesn't mean "and you" but "you, too?", "even you?" -- et from
>>etiam.
>>
>
> Is that necessarily true, coming from a glove-maker's son with "little
> latin and less Greek"?
Keep in mind that "little Latin" meant something like "can't converse
fluently in Latin, doesn't write his plays in Latin," etc. In the 1790s,
Schelling would write a commentary on the Poetics in Greek. In other
words, "little Latin" back then is equivalent to "lots of Latin" now.
John W. Kennedy
> "Et tu" doesn't mean "and you" but "you, too?", "even you?" -- et from
> etiam.
Errr.... No.
"Et" is "et". It is true that it carries several meanings other than
"and", including "even" ("Timeo Daanaos et dona ferentes") but "etiam"
derives from "et iam", not the other way around.
In any case, Caesar's actual last words were Greek: "Kai su teknon" --
"And thou, child". I suppose Shakespeare is playing the same game that
Dorothy L. Sayers did when she translated a passage in the "Purgatorio"
that Dante wrote in Provençal into Scots.
--
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction
together; but it is about as perceptive as classing the
works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W. W. Jacobs together
as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
-- C. S. Lewis. "An Experiment in Criticism"
francis muir
PBYeb.6377$E95.1...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net, "John W. Kennedy"
<jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> smw wrote:
>> "Et tu" doesn't mean "and you" but "you, too?", "even you?" -- et from
>> etiam.
>
> Errr.... No.
>
> "Et" is "et". It is true that it carries several meanings other than
> "and", including "even" ("Timeo Daanaos et dona ferentes") but "etiam"
> derives from "et iam", not the other way around.
>
> In any case, Caesar's actual last words were Greek: "Kai su teknon" --
> "And thou, child". I suppose Shakespeare is playing the same game that
> Dorothy L. Sayers did when she translated a passage in the "Purgatorio"
> that Dante wrote in Provençal into Scots.
It is, of course, one of the glories of Shakespeare that we all
know exactly what he means, and we all know exactly differently.
smw
John W. Kennedy wrote:
> smw wrote:
>
>> "Et tu" doesn't mean "and you" but "you, too?", "even you?" -- et from
>> etiam.
>
>
> Errr.... No.
>
> "Et" is "et". It is true that it carries several meanings other than
> "and", including "even" ("Timeo Daanaos et dona ferentes") but "etiam"
> derives from "et iam", not the other way around.
Yes. And shortened back to "et" over and over again. Not an uncommon
process in languages.
> In any case, Caesar's actual last words were Greek: "Kai su teknon" --
I know better than to argue with an eye witness.
Michael S. Morris
Thursday, the 2nd of October, 2003
Silke:
Yeah, and it's translated as that because
"et" can mean both "and" and "even", and
both syntax and context suggest that "et"
here means "even."
Well, I'm still stuck back at the difference between
"and" and "even" in English. It seems to me that
"and" already can perfectly well mean what you are
trying to get by "even". Which is why I prefer "And you,
Brutus"---it has an older ring to it or something, but
means the same thing. And try the OED for a flavour of
"and"'s range.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
smw
Michael S. Morris wrote:
> Thursday, the 2nd of October, 2003
>
> Silke:
> Yeah, and it's translated as that because
> "et" can mean both "and" and "even", and
> both syntax and context suggest that "et"
> here means "even."
>
> Well, I'm still stuck back at the difference between
> "and" and "even" in English. It seems to me that
> "and" already can perfectly well mean what you are
> trying to get by "even".
Not to my ear -- "x ,too?" -- yes, absolutely. But "and?" What do you do
with the "timeo Danaes et dona ferentes," which somebody else already
mentioned? I don't see how you can make "and" work at all without some
major contortions. So I'd still insist that "et" has a much wider ranger
than "and."
Lewis Mammel
No doubt true. But in the case of "Et tu" , "you too" is "tu quoque"
right? which leaves "Even you" and this doesn't really cut it IMHO,
because you just wouldn't say it.
The google counts are:
"you too brutus" 531
"and you brutus" 175
"even you brutus" 80
But "And you, Brutus" is really transliterated Latin, IMO. It seems like
latinate english does have a history, especially in poetics, and perhaps
this is how it gained familiarity to mine ear.
Note the construction in Rime of the Ancient Mariner,
"Without or wave or wind" which is not standard english,
but mimics "sine aut ... aut ..."
There's a bunch of "nor ... nor ..." too.
A discussion at http://www.shaksper.net/archives/2003/0312.html
has these comments by Cliff Ronan:
The 1587 *Mirror for
Magistrates*, for instance, has Caesar exclaim, "And Brutus thou my
sonne (quoth I) whom erst I loved best?" (Dorsch ed., Arden 1955, p.67).
Instead, Shakespeare chooses to repeat the phrase "Et tu, Brute," used
in *The True Tragedie of Richard Duke of Yorke" (printed 1595). An
Englished version of this phrase appears also in the anonymous *Caesar's
Revenge*, which was published after the mounting of *Julius Caesar* but
was composed about the same time as *The True Tragedie*--that is to say,
four or five years before Shakespeare's *Caesar.*
So there's "And Brutus thou" but we don't get to hear what the
"Englished version" of "Et tu, Brute" was! Something in principle
discoverable by us, although I'm at a loss.
Does "Englished" here mean transliterated ?
Lew Mammel, Jr.
francis muir
Mammel" <l.ma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
The funny thing is, I cannot remember a production where
it was ever anything but "Et tu Brute". It has been absorbed
into the English language.
Michael S. Morris
Thursday, the 2nd of October, 2003
Silke:
Yeah, and it's translated as that because
"et" can mean both "and" and "even", and
both syntax and context suggest that "et"
here means "even."
I said:
Well, I'm still stuck back at the difference between
"and" and "even" in English. It seems to me that
"and" already can perfectly well mean what you are
trying to get by "even".
Silke:
Not to my ear -- "x ,too?" -- yes, absolutely. But "and?"
Nah, "x, too?" simply sounds more modern to my ear than "And x?"
Silke:
What do you do with the "timeo Danaes et dona ferentes," which
somebody else already mentioned?
Why not "And bringing gifts I fear the Greeks"?
Silke:
I don't see how you can make "and" work
at all without some major contortions.
Seems to me the King James Bible is particularly known
for polysyndeton (as well as contortions) of this type.
It's certainly not magazine copy of the last 40 years,
but I don't dismiss it as contortionistic.
Silke:
So I'd still insist that "et" has a much wider ranger
than "and."
And? And I suspect they have a similar range, and for the same
reason.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
Lewis Mammel
"Michael S. Morris" wrote:
> Silke:
> What do you do with the "timeo Danaes et dona ferentes," which
> somebody else already mentioned?
>
> Why not "And bringing gifts I fear the Greeks"?
Hey, pretty good. I didn't think of that. The whole word order
thing freaks me out. Latin seems very alien to me on this account.
As weird as Japanese is, it is fundamentally more similar to modern
english than latin is, the way I see it, just because of the familiar
way it respects word order.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
smw
Michael S. Morris wrote:
>
>
> Thursday, the 2nd of October, 2003
>
> Silke:
> Yeah, and it's translated as that because
> "et" can mean both "and" and "even", and
> both syntax and context suggest that "et"
> here means "even."
> I said:
> Well, I'm still stuck back at the difference between
> "and" and "even" in English. It seems to me that
> "and" already can perfectly well mean what you are
> trying to get by "even".
> Silke:
> Not to my ear -- "x ,too?" -- yes, absolutely. But "and?"
>
> Nah, "x, too?" simply sounds more modern to my ear than "And x?"
>
> Silke:
> What do you do with the "timeo Danaes et dona ferentes," which
> somebody else already mentioned?
>
> Why not "And bringing gifts I fear the Greeks"?
Because that's a horrible sentence. It also suggests that you fear the
Greeks for bringing gifts. The point is that you fear the Greeks _even
when_ they bring gifts. Your sentence doesn't do that.
>
> Silke:
> I don't see how you can make "and" work
> at all without some major contortions.
>
> Seems to me the King James Bible is particularly known
> for polysyndeton (as well as contortions) of this type.
> It's certainly not magazine copy of the last 40 years,
> but I don't dismiss it as contortionistic.
Example?
> Silke:
> So I'd still insist that "et" has a much wider ranger
> than "and."
>
> And? And I suspect they have a similar range, and for the same
> reason.
Be my guest. Meanwhile, I'll stick with with the dictionaries on that one.
Michael S. Morris
Friday, the 3rd of October, 2003
Silke:
Yeah, and it's translated as that because
"et" can mean both "and" and "even", and
both syntax and context suggest that "et"
here means "even."
I said:
Well, I'm still stuck back at the difference between
"and" and "even" in English. It seems to me that
"and" already can perfectly well mean what you are
trying to get by "even".
Silke:
Not to my ear -- "x ,too?" -- yes, absolutely. But "and?"
I said:
Nah, "x, too?" simply sounds more modern to my ear than "And x?"
Silke:
What do you do with the "timeo Danaes et dona ferentes," which
somebody else already mentioned?
I said:
Why not "And bringing gifts I fear the Greeks"?
Silke:
Because that's a horrible sentence.
Nah, you just read it like a modern. The "and" means "even",
and the syntax is different than a modern editor would make
you write it. Yecch, I *hate* the way modern editors would
make you write it. See, what happened is in the American
public schools, they stopped doing Latin, and then there was
this whole revision of English grammar, and interpretation of
the way it used to be done as "latinate", so the possibility
of implied case-endings could be ditched in favour of simplified
rules of syntax. English got uglier as a result, I think.
Silke:
It also suggests that you fear the
Greeks for bringing gifts.
Except that's not what the "and" means.
Silke:
The point is that you fear the Greeks _even
when_ they bring gifts. Your sentence doesn't do that.
My sentence does exactly that, once one reads "and" as meaning
"even when" to a modern.
Silke:
I don't see how you can make "and" work
at all without some major contortions.
I said:
Seems to me the King James Bible is particularly known
for polysyndeton (as well as contortions) of this type.
It's certainly not magazine copy of the last 40 years,
but I don't dismiss it as contortionistic.
Silke:
Example?
"And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took
Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and
the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters,
and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his
tent, and all that he had." Josh. 7:24
"When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book." Yeats
"And they came to the place which God had told
him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and
laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son,
and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham
stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay
his son. And the Angel of the Lord called unto him
out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said,
Here am I." Gen 22:9
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and
they shall never perish." John 10:27
"How all the other passions fleet to air,
As doubtful thoughts, and rash-
embrac'd despair,
And shuddering fear, and green-eyed
jealousy." Merchant of Venice 3.2.105
"Unless hours were cups of sack, and minutes capons,
and clocks the tongues of bawds, and dials the signs
of leaping houses, and the blessed sun himself a
fair hot wench in flame color'd taffeta, I see no
reason why thou shouldst be so superfluous to demand
the time of day." Henry IV Part 1, 1.2.7
"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a
beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the
name of blasphemy. and the beast which I saw was like unto a
leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his
mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power,
and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads
as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast." Rev 13.1
"And as it was in the days of Noah so shall it
be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat,
they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and
the flood came, and destroyed them all." Luke 17:26
Oh gosh---this one example of ellipsis from
Addison also strikes me as possibly relevant:
"Men who cherish for women the highest respect are seldom
popular with."
Or hyperbaton:
"Against an elder receive not an accusation,
but before two or three witnesses. Them that
sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."
I Timothy 5:19
"Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall."
Measure for Meas. 2.1.38
"Constant you are,
But yet a woman." Henry IV, Part I 2.3.113
"Yet I'll not shed her blood,
Nor scar that whiter skin of hers than snow." O 5.2.3
"To each man according to his dream he did interpret.
And it came to pass, as he interpreted, so it was;
me he restored unto mine office, and him he hanged."
Gen 14:12
OK, so examples of reversals of expected syntax, and
of polysyndeton---extra "ands" are examples listed in
_Figures of Speech_ by Arthur Quinn. He says somewhere that
asyndeton---deletion of the expected "and" is preferred
by Shakspeare, whereas the KJV abounds in polysyndeton.
I think it's obvious many of the "and"'s above mean
things like "even" or "too" or "so" or "then" or
"next", if you were to try and modernize the language.
In the OED the entry for "and" takes up most of page 449
plus continues onto 450. Obsolete meaning A include "before,
in the presence of" as a proposition. There are lots of meanings
of "and" given. Umm, in particular, we have B. coordinating
conjunction IV quasi adverbially 13 also, even (A Latinism)
(obsolete or archaic). Examples: Wyclif 1382---He that
haiteth me, haiteth and my fadir. [1388 also----from
Vulgate: Qui me odit, et patrem meum odit.] 1558 Bishop
T. Watson: He that hath promysed pardone unto us, whensoever
we converte, dothe not promise unto us longe lyfe and to
lyve whyle to morrowe. Also, long discussion of possible
origin of "and" to mean "if". As in "And it so please your
lordship,...".
Silke:
So I'd still insist that "et" has a much wider ranger
than "and."
I said:
And? And I suspect they have a similar range, and for the same
reason.
Silke:
Be my guest. Meanwhile, I'll stick with with the
dictionaries on that one.
Oh, I'll stick with the dictionaries all right. And
of English with the makers I'll stick. And the poets
they be.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
smw
Michael S. Morris wrote:
>
> Silke:
> The point is that you fear the Greeks _even
> when_ they bring gifts. Your sentence doesn't do that.
>
> My sentence does exactly that, once one reads "and" as meaning
> "even when" to a modern.
Okay, we're agreed that if "and" meant "even when," then "and" would be
a perfect translation of "et."
Btw, here's a solution I like better: I fear the Greeks, and be they
bringing gifts.
Michael S. Morris
Friday, the 3rd of October, 2003
Silke:
The point is that you fear the Greeks _even
when_ they bring gifts. Your sentence doesn't do that.
I said:
My sentence does exactly that, once one reads "and" as meaning
"even when" to a modern.
Silke:
Okay, we're agreed that if "and" meant "even when," then "and" would be
a perfect translation of "et."
We are more or less agreed.
Silke:
Btw, here's a solution I like better: I fear the Greeks, and be they
bringing gifts.
I like it, too. It's more obvious what the "and" is doing,
and sounds more of a time in syntax with "and" used as "even". But,
whether I like it better or not would depend upon how much
of a pause at possible ambiguity I would want to have created in
the reader. With Vergil, probably little pause.
So, back to "Et tu, Brute?" I like "And you, Brutus?" best for the
reason that it carries to my ear the sense of "even" without bringing its
contemporary sound.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
> I know better than to argue with an eye witness.
Caesar's words echo Jesus' "You too, Peter will deny me ...", but I wasn't
there either.
John W. Kennedy
> Caesar's words echo Jesus' "You too, Peter will deny me ...", but I wasn't
> there either.
I cannot, in fact, find it worded in that way in the Bible.
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
> I cannot, in fact, find it worded in that way in the Bible.
Maybe I saw it on a license plate ... U2PTR ...
Robert Stonehouse
Nor was Caesar: he died first. Is this an echo faster than light?
Bruce McGuffin
Yeah, but Jesus was speaking Greek.
Bruce
John W. Kennedy
His words are recorded in Greek, but a private conversation with the
Apostles would more probably have been in Aramaic.
David O'Lantern
Isn't "MAOI" and old class of antidepressant drugs? The kind you
can't have red wine of fava beans with?
Confusedly,
D.
--
"You better understand that you're alone -- a long way from home."
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