Charity grovels for lampooning murdered film-maker
Dr. Jai Maharaj
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
Charity grovels for lampooning murdered film-maker
By Chris Hastings and Elizabeth Day
The Telegraph
telegraph.co.uk
Monday, December 20, 2004
International human rights publication apologises for describing Theo van
Gogh's death as 'marvellous piece of street theatre'
A senior editor at the international human rights magazine, Index on
Censorship, has apologised for publishing an article poking fun at the
murder of a Dutch film-maker by Islamic extremists, and admitted that it
should never have been published.
Ursula Owen, the editor-in-chief, said that she was sorry for the
widespread outrage sparked by the piece and said that she would not have
written it herself.
This follows intense criticism of the liberal quarterly, which ran a
website article last month describing the killing of Theo van Gogh, a
critic of Islam who was stabbed and shot on an Amsterdam street by a Muslim
fanatic on November 2, as a "marvellous piece of street theatre".
The piece, written by Rohan Jayasekera, the magazine's associate editor,
lampooned van Gogh's films, and his "exploitative" relationship with Ayann
Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born Dutch MP, who co-produced his most recent work.
Jayasekera called the murder of van Gogh, a father of three and a
descendant of the artist Vincent van Gogh, a "sensational climax to a
lifetime's public performance".
He went on to describe van Gogh's most recent critique of Islam, a film
entitled Submission that featured a veiled Muslim woman with verses of the
Koran apparently justifying domestic abuse written over her naked body, as
"juvenile shock-horror art".
The article described the film-maker's anti-Islamic tirades as
"obscenities," and "an abuse of his right to free speech".
Miss Owen admitted last night that the article had provoked uproar within
Index on Censorship, with complaints from both subscribers and
contributors. She said that the internet article would not have been put in
the print edition of the magazine, but she said that editors and board
members had decided that the offending article would not be removed and nor
would Jayasekera lose his job.
"There has been a lot of criticism and some support," she said. "I am sorry
that it has outraged people. I don't think the tone is right and I do not
agree with it.
"It would not have got in the magazine because it would have been edited
before. This is not something I would have written myself. We have had
people who write for us saying they disapprove of that piece but no one has
said they are never going to write for us again."
Miss Owen said that just because she had printed the piece did not mean
that she endorsed the views in it.
"I do not agree with everything the magazine prints," she said. "We
recently published a piece saying there was not a link between HIV and
Aids. I don't agree with that view but I think it is important that it
should be aired."
Index on Censorship, which is funded by the charity Writers & Scholars
International Ltd, was founded in 1972 by Sir Stephen Spender to fight for
the right of free expression for Soviet dissidents and has a long list of
illustrious contributors.
Past writers include the award-winning authors Doris Lessing, Margaret
Atwood and A S Byatt, Vaclav Havel, the former president of the Czech
Republic, and the playwrights Arthur Miller and Harold Pinter.
Past board members of the charity include Sir Louis Blom-Cooper, QC, a
former deputy High Court judge, Michael Grade, the chairman of the BBC,
Lord Palumbo, the chairman of the Arts Council from 1989-1994, Lady Susan
Hollick, who served as the chairman of the Index on Censorship for seven
years from 1993 and Anthony Smith, the president of Magdalen College,
Oxford.
Lord Palumbo said yesterday: "This is not the sort of article that would
have appeared when I was involved with the charity. Back then, it was
concerned with strictly factual and straight reports about abuses and
torture, wherever they occurred."
One donor, who asked to remain anonymous, said: "They've committed
organisational hara-kiri. They have become something they once were not."
Peter Tatchell, the homosexual rights activist who has written for the
magazine in the past, said: "I found it to be a tragic betrayal of the
magazine's traditional support for libertarian values. In this current
epoch of post-modernism and live-and-let-live multiculturalism, moral
relativism is gaining ground. This article was one more instance of this
relativism. Liberal humanitarian values are under threat. Much of this
threat comes not from the far Right, but from the Left's moral equivocation
and compromises."
Mr Tatchell insisted, however, that although he did not agree with the
article itself, he defended the magazine's right to carry it.
"For the most part, the Index on Censorship performs a valuable function in
defending freedom of speech and promoting individual liberties. This was a
maverick article and out of character. The article was an insult to all
progressive Muslims."
Mr Tatchell's comments were echoed by Germaine Greer, the feminist academic
and author, who subscribes to the magazine and described the piece as "vile
vomit".
She said: "The problem with Index on Censorship's position is that, by its
nature, they have to publish things that they don't agree with in order to
prove their own point. I would hope that by giving a fanatic a platform and
listening to what he says, that people would be able to see how crazy that
person is and refute his arguments.
"On the other hand, no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence
of the public."
The magazine has a readership of just over 5,000 and Writers & Scholars
International recently received funding from the Foreign Office. The money
was awarded to help with the training of journalists in Iraq.
Mr van Gogh was shot eight times and stabbed while cycling to work in
Amsterdam last month. A five-page letter containing Islamic quotations and
addressed to Ms Ali, the MP who had helped with his last film, was stuck to
his body with a dagger.
Mohammed Bouyeri, a 26-year-old Dutch Moroccan, has been charged with his
murder.
The brutal nature of the crime provoked a storm of protest throughout
Holland with an outbreak of more than 20 firebomb attacks on mosques and
Islamic schools in Amsterdam, The Hague and Rotterdam.
Mr Jayasekera, who has been working for Index on Censorship since 2000 and
is half Sri Lankan, would not speak to The Telegraph yesterday, but put a
statement on the website. It said: "To deliberately provoke a debate on the
internet, I wanted to be as hard on van Gogh as he had been on his critics
in life. I realised that I was sailing close to the edge to make that
point, but I believed that my article fell short of actually blaming van
Gogh for his own murder.
"No one deserves to die for their views, no matter how reprehensible.
Murder is the most abhorrent of means of censorship. Does that mean van
Gogh's words were beyond accountability? No. Not in the real world anyway."
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I think the really interesting bits of this story are the comments of Peter
Tatchell and Germaine Greer, perhaps there is a realignment of traditional
stances vis a vis right and left coming. Certainly we will have a more
interesting public debate if so
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:34:08 AM PST by flitton
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End of forwarded message
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not so send
peace, but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
- Matthew 10:34-36.
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Dr. Jai Maharaj
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-To: flitton
> "Ursula Owen, the editor-in-chief, said that she was sorry for the
> widespread outrage sparked by the piece and said that she would not have
> written it herself.
Typical smarmy Lib response. Instead of stepping up and accepting the fact
that she is Editor-In-Chief and it was published on her watch she tries to
deflect it to an underling. A real display of courage and professionalism.
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:38:23 AM PST by drt1
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-To: flitton
They thought it was funny till someone pointed out it was awful. Are these
people 12 years old?
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:42:25 AM PST by DManA
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-To: DManA
My view is that many people are now so 'ironic' and 'post-modern' that they
have become detached from the moorings of common decency.
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:47:34 AM PST by flitton
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-To: drt1
Here's what the author has to say:
http://www.indexonline.org/news/20041103_netherlands.shtml
My outburst against the legacy of Theo van Gogh drew furious responses. I
wanted to comment about how his style had helped reduce political discourse
in Holland to a baying dogfight, and the damage that had been done to free
expression there as a result. And to deliberately provoke a debate on the
internet, I wanted to be as hard on van Gogh as he had been on his critics
in life.
I realised that I was sailing close to the edge to make that point, but I
believed that my article fell short of actually blaming van Gogh for his
own murder. Plenty of people, though not all, think I didn't fall short
enough
"'De mortuis nil sini bene'. (Speak only good of the dead.) That is a maxim
which Van Gogh violated consistently," argued Dutch poet Remco Campert in
his own article about van Gogh's murder. "I think I would insult him if now
I would say sugary nice things (about him)"
Campert, after reviewing van Gogh's comments on the Jews, concluded that
they were "not really the words of a true hero of free speech." You can
read what I think in my original item. Yet our opinions of his style didn't
mean van Gogh should have been censored -- much less that he should have
been killed for his views. That should go without saying.
It just means that I shouldn't have to condone what he says. Nor that his
death should change my view of his words -- that would be hypocrisy. And it
should open a wider discussion about where the lines are being drawn.
The article could have been done differently, true. One correspondent
suggested writing a piece on the "...Rawlsian conception of civility and
civic respect, particularly in relation to the polarisation of political
discourse which has come to a head as a product of the debate on the Iraq
war..."
Well that's one way of going about it, but we are talking about the man who
commented on the death of Green Party leader Paul Rosenmöller: "May he get
joy from his brain tumour. Let us piss on his grave". Or when writing in
Folia Civitatis magazine in reply to criticism by Jewish historian Evelien
Gans: "I suspect that Ms Gans gets wet dreams about being f*#%ed by Dr
Mengele." He later told the Volkskrant newspaper that he hoped Gans would
sue him, so he could make Gans prove in court that she doesn't have wet
dreams about Dr Mengele.
Was that "theatre?" Yes. Free expression? Yes. Did he deserve to die for
it? No. No-one deserves to die for their views, not matter how
reprehensible. Murder is the most abhorrent of means of censorship.
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:48:03 AM PST by bikepacker67
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-To: flitton
I'm still waiting for someone to point out any part of that movie that is
untrue.
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:53:29 AM PST by BobL
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-To: flitton
-from the article - Peter Tatchell, the homosexual rights activist who has
written for the magazine in the past, said: "I found it to be a tragic
betrayal of the magazine's traditional support for libertarian values. In
this current epoch of post-modernism and live-and-let-live
multiculturalism, moral relativism is gaining ground. This article was one
more instance of this relativism. Liberal humanitarian values are under
threat. Much of this threat comes not from the far Right, but from the
Left's moral equivocation and compromises."
JFK_Lib - This is a great quote and well summarizes the multi-kulti lefts
deviance into self-destructive tolerance of those things inimicable with
what would allow the left to continue toexist.
-from the article - Mohammed Bouyeri, a 26-year-old Dutch Moroccan, has
been charged with his murder.
JFK_Lib - The guy was Dutch, but of Moroccan descent. This statement
betrays the fatal flaw of the multi-kulti mindset as Mr Bouyeri was
obviously never Dutch in his thinking despite having grown up there his
whole life. Describing him as 'Dutch Moroccan' is an oxymoron like a 'cat
pig' descriptor would be.
-from the article - No one deserves to die for their views, no matter how
reprehensible.
JFK_Lib - I disagree. One can incite violence that warrants a death penalty
simply by expressing ones views. If Ossama binLaden had never actually done
one thing to aid/plan/abett the 9/11 attacks, his advocacy of such violence
does.
Words can kill and as such may merit a justifiable death sentence for them.
But that was clearly not the case in vanGoh's death, except from the
perspective of one who holds a set of values intirley hostile to Western
culture.
This is why Islam will never accomodate being in the midst of Western
society, as we have become too morally degenerate for them to do so without
jettisoning all real meaning to their religion. That will not happen. And
since Europe will never jettison its cheap labor the future remains bleak
for a Europe that kills its unborn while bearing a demographically superior
ethnic group in its bossom.
Within a century, the Muslims will control the EU politically, and within
two hundred Islam will be the majority religion in Europe with almost all
of its old cathedrals converted into mosques.
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:55:49 AM PST by JFK_Lib
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-To: flitton
This Liberal-Islamic Axis that they seem to have in Europe may end up
getting both groups sent to the ovens, if they're not careful. The people
there can only take so much of it.
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:55:59 AM PST by BobL
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-To: flitton
Mo' was a psycho killer, thief, brigand, torturer, warlord and pedophile
that all Muslims are supposed to emulate. The Koran instructs them to copy
the life of their bogus prophet.
Houston, we have a problem!
Posted on 12/19/2004 5:57:59 AM PST by dennisw
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End of forwarded messages
Dr. Jai Maharaj
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-To: flitton; blam; Ernest_at_the_Beach; FairOpinion; ValerieUSA
> [T]he international human rights magazine, Index on Censorship... ran a
> website article last month describing the killing of Theo van Gogh, a
> critic of Islam who was stabbed and shot on an Amsterdam street by a Muslim
> fanatic on November 2, as a "marvellous piece of street theatre". The
> piece, written by Rohan Jayasekera, the magazine's associate editor,
> lampooned van Gogh's films, and his "exploitative" relationship with Ayann
> Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born Dutch MP, who co-produced his most recent work.
> Jayasekera called the murder of van Gogh, a father of three and a
> descendant of the artist Vincent van Gogh, a "sensational climax to a
> lifetime's public performance"... The article described the film-maker's
> anti-Islamic tirades as "obscenities," and "an abuse of his right to free
> speech"... editors and board members had decided that the offending article
> would not be removed and nor would Jayasekera lose his job.
Revolting a-holes.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:01:13 AM PST by SunkenCiv
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-To: bikepacker67
These people are just plain evil.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:02:33 AM PST by Brilliant
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-To: JFK_Lib
> "Within a century, the Muslims will control the EU politically, and
> within two hundred Islam will be the majority religion in Europe with
> almost all of its old cathedrals converted into mosques."
Much sooner than that - given present demographics and immigration. France
hits the magic 30% Muslim number in about 2030. Holland and Britain a few
years later, and then then the rest of Europe soon after. Roughly 20 years
after that, the countries will be majority Muslim. Turkey entering the EU
will only speed up the timetable.
The significance of 30% is that it means that there are more fighting age
Muslims than Anglos (due to their high birthrates), and that's usually when
the civil wars begin.
Europe has very little time left to get their house in order.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:03:52 AM PST by BobL
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End of forwarded messages
Dr. Jai Maharaj
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-To: bikepacker67
> Was that "theatre?" Yes. Free expression? Yes. Did he deserve to die for
> it? No. No-one deserves to die for their views, not matter how
> reprehensible. Murder is the most abhorrent of means of censorship
Geeesh....IMO this writer is a true Lib (Lib = A$$hole). No matter how
disgusting his piece is he wraps herself in the pseudo intellectualism and
amorality of her ilk.
> He wanted to "Deliberately provoke a debate on the Internet?
Great, it's like decency and REAL logic escapes him in the pursuit of his
"Game" - The rattling of the bars of people who actually think about what
they say and read.
Again, IMO this warrants a BARF alert.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:05:51 AM PST by drt1
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-To: flitton
Is it possible that the "half Sri Lankan" author, Rohan Jayasekera, is a
member of the Religion of Peace?
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:18:37 AM PST by Malesherbes
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-To: flitton
Great post!
> The piece, written by Rohan Jayasekera, the magazine's associate editor,
> lampooned van Gogh's films, and his "exploitative" relationship with
> Ayann Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born Dutch MP, who co-produced his most recent
> work
This American thinks that Rohan is a moderate muslim leaning to the radical
side, is an idiot, or both.
I have seen "Submission", and it obvious why the radical Islamics wanted
him dead! He died to expose TROP for the BS that it is...and the woman,
Ayann Hirsi Ali, who has fought against the craziness of islam, knew in the
filming that they (imam jihadi) would come after them for the filming.
Ayann, as far as I'm concerned is welcome to my country as a political
assylum person. She has fought the battle against a dangerous problem
(TROP), the world over.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:20:30 AM PST by Issaquahking
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-To: drt1
Oops her = he
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:21:48 AM PST by drt1
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-To: drt1
This is what they thought...
> International human rights publication apologises for describing Theo van
> Gogh's death as 'marvellous piece of street theatre'
This is how they responded when confronted with the evil.
> A senior editor at the international human rights magazine, Index on
> Censorship, has apologised for publishing an article poking fun at the
> murder of a Dutch film-maker by Islamic extremists, and admitted that it
> should never have been published.
I DONT SEE ANY APOLOGY HERE FOR THE SENTIMENT.
all I see is an apology for PUBLISHING. For allowing the world to know
about the sentiment. This is not an apology for feeling that way. They are
apologizing for having revealed what they truly feel. This is a GLIMPSE
into the evil heart of this organization.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:28:11 AM PST by Samurai_Jack
Dr. Jai Maharaj
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-To: Malesherbes; Issaquahking
Re the writer being Muslim. I think it's very unlikely as a 'half Shri-
Lankan' I found this at www.adherents.com
"The four main religions of the world are represented, though not in equal
numbers. 69% of the population is Buddhist; 15%, Hindu; 8%, Muslim; and 8%,
Christian."; Pg. 115: "17,103,000 (1990) "
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:31:44 AM PST by flitton
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-To: BobL
BobL - given present demographics and immigration. France hits the magic
30% Muslim number in about 2030. Holland and Britain a few years later, and
then then the rest of Europe soon after. Roughly 20 years after that, the
countries will be majority Muslim. Turkey entering the EU will only speed
up the timetable.
JFK_Lib - I think there will be some form of European reaction that
political compromise will result in closing further immigration leaving the
Muslims that have already immigrated in a growing group that the effects of
economics will slow demographically to some degree. Having a lot of
children is difficult to do and remain middle class, so many Muslims will
have fewer children like most groups do when they move up economically.
But the Europeans have erased any meaning to being *European* and so cannot
last long in demographic competition with an alien group that still has
this sense of who they are and what they represent and are family oriented
in values, not consumer oriented. The Muslims are only replacing the
cultural vaccuum created in Europe by the European's adaptation of the
culture of death that cunsumer culture really is.
So, despite European efforts to reduce Muslim population growth within
Europe, the Muslims will still become a majority, unless expelled from
Europe and the modern Europeans will NEVER do that. Or unless they jettison
the culture of consumerism and start having babies at far higher rates, and
that is even less likely as it is more palatable for most to expell someone
else from the middle class than to reduce yourself from the middle class.
BobL - The significance of 30% is that it means that there are more
fighting age Muslims than Anglos (due to their high birthrates), and that's
usually when the civil wars begin.
JFK_Lib - Heh, it is interesting that you use the term 'Anglos' apparently
in reference to white Europeans. I am not sure the Germans and French would
care for the term, heheh.
But your assertion is correct; 30% is the key percentage for a civil war
that the Muslims will likely win. The interesting thing is that they do not
have to fight to win; they can win by just having more babies in the midst
of a democratic society with a majority made up of denationalized
consumers.
BobL - Europe has very little time left to get their house in order.
JFK_Lib - I think they are culturally dead already and we are witnssing
their dissentigration and decomposition as nations which the EU as an
institution will only accelerate.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:39:19 AM PST by JFK_Lib
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-To: flitton
Okay, I'll cede point on muslim...how bout the writer is just an idiot?
Watching "Submission" on gets a true sense of what this woman is saying
about being a member slave to islam. It also took someone behind a lens to
get the setting right.
Have you had a chance to see Submission? Worth it if you get the chance,
keep an eye out over your shoulder when you leave.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:43:17 AM PST by Issaquahking
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-To: flitton
> she was sorry for the widespread outrage sparked by the piece
Typical non-apology apology. As for Peter Tatchell, given the fact that he
disrupts Christian religious services and tells Christians to change
Christian doctrine on the morality of homosexual activity, I would hardly
call him someone who believes in libertarianism and "live and let live".
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:52:02 AM PST by Unam Sanctam
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-To: Issaquahking
Haven't seen it yet hoping I'll find it on the net as I haven't found a
release date for it
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:52:37 AM PST by flitton
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-To: JFK_Lib
Great post - thanks.
It becomes about 2040 in France if you assume no immigration, but continued
high birthrates (I have that on my spreadsheet also). The Muslims are
actively using large families as tool to obtain power, something that I
don't think has ever happened before (except in the Palestinian Authority
and Israel), so normal assumptions about smaller families may not apply in
this case.
I also think that Europe has already lost any chance to repopulate if they
did, somehow, get rid of their Muslims. There just won't be enough women of
childbearing age. They've already closed out that option.
They will have to import friendlier workers, probably from Black Africa,
Latin America, or Catholics from the Philippines - which can certainly be
done, while they try to re-populate.
One last thing to think about. Consider the situation: Even much sooner
than 2030, the old graying whites (not Anglos - thanks) in Europe will be
demanding that the young Muslims fork over huge amounts of their paychecks.
If the Muslims revolt big-time for that reason, can you really blame.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:52:40 AM PST by BobL
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-To: flitton
> "On the other hand, no one ever went broke underestimating the
> intelligence of the public."
Typical liberal thought. So very, very much smarter than the average bear.
And a readership of 5,000, how terribly impressive. Must be because they
are so intellectually superior that us common folk can't understand their
tripe. These people bring to mind the phrase "fiddle while Rome burns". I
may not be the brightest bulb on the tree but I have sense enough to get
off the track when I see a train coming.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:55:05 AM PST by pepperdog
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-To: flitton
> "marvellous piece of street theatre"
Plagiarists! Some other idiot liberal said the same thing about 9/11.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:00:08 AM PST by Alouette
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-To: Unam Sanctam
Neither would I, but if you recall Pim Fortuyn was gay and his issue was
the impact of Islam on the tolerance of Dutch society. That's why I was
thinking of a realignment maybe Peter Tatchell is about to discover he has
some common cause with the right. I've heard him on the radio here in a
couple of interviews definitely moving that way he won't change radically
but perhaps his views with become a little more considered rather than
reflexively 'conservative = bad' in every circumstance.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:00:17 AM PST by flitton
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-To: Issaquahking
I've seen it. Before it got pulled down.
This film is in excellent taste and all fact-based. And that is the problem
- once the facts are known, it gets a lot harder for white Europeans to
'tolerate' this behavior. That's why Van Gogh had to be eliminated. Their
system of degrading and abusing women (right in the middle of Europe) was
being exposed big-time, in a way that made it impossible to ignore.
Remember, Christians have had to deal with people attacking their religion,
but it got traction, since it was so blatently false. Islam has a problem,
since only the truth has to be exposed.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:00:33 AM PST by BobL
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-To: flitton
> the really interesting bits of this story are the comments of Peter
> Tatchell and Germaine Greer
Who the hell are they, and why should anybody care?
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:01:14 AM PST by Alouette
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-To: BobL
Also, bear in mind that with the EU becoming dominant, it is not necesary
to have a muslim majority in each nation of Europe, all they have to have
is a significant minority that can form trans-national coalitions in direct
competition in the EU parlaiment that is likely to be fragmented along
national ethnic lines for the European majority.
With merely 10% of the vote in Germany, France, Benelux, Spain, UK, Italy
and Sweden they can then from a transnational bloc that will be a heavy-
weight in EU politics that will likely block any attempt to cut off further
immigration. Add Turkey to the equation and this becomes a virtual
certainty.
Unless the Europeans return to some sort of sense of having a right as
indegenous people to maintain themselves as a majority, encourage
motherhood and embrace Christianity as a defining element of what it is to
be completely European (none of this is likely to happen) the Muslims will
eventually first dominate and then become the majority in Europe.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:03:01 AM PST by JFK_Lib
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-To: flitton
> "...described the film-maker's anti-Islamic tirades as "obscenities," and
> "an abuse of his right to free speech".
Doesn't that sound like American liberals talking about conservatives?
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:03:03 AM PST by Baynative
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-To: Alouette
Should have put in some explanation of that. . . .
Germaine Greer was/is a famous 70's feminist she's Australian but has lived
in the UK for years. I was surprised she'd go that far with her comments
http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/greer/
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:08:58 AM PST by flitton
Dr. Jai Maharaj
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-To: JFK_Lib
> "Unless the Europeans return to some sort of sense of having a right as
> indegenous people to maintain themselves as a majority, encourage
> motherhood and embrace Christianity as a defining element of what it is
> to be completely European (none of this is likely to happen) the Muslims
> will eventually first dominate and then become the majority in Europe."
Well stated - we'll see how this plays out, and it will be very, very, ugly
no matter what.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:11:50 AM PST by BobL
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-To: drt1
Indeed.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:12:28 AM PST by cicero's_son
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-To: BobL
Many good thoughts here.
But lets look at the big picture down the road and imagine how this impacts
the US.
We would have higher immigration from those ethnic groups in Europe that
care enough about living in a Christian society that they would immigrate
to us for refuge. That is a good thing for us I think.
Also, if the Europeans are replaced by Muslims, can this be any worse for
us than what we have with the current atheist-secular European leadership?
I havent liked a European head of state since Thatcher retired. To heck
with all of them as far as I am concerned.
Thank God that our cheap labor immigration is Roman Catholic and is
definately natalist as are the majority of our suburban and rural families,
especially in the 'red states' area of the US.
All in all, while this is a disaster for Europe I think it can be a
blessing for the US for many reasons, not the least of which is to the
light the chronological roadway ahead so we can see the cultural suicide
the multi-kulti ethnos really is.
I wont see your response for a while, sorry.
But I have to attend mass with my wife and children, heheh.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:12:36 AM PST by JFK_Lib
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-To: Baynative
> "Doesn't that sound like American liberals talking about conservatives?"
Just my thought also. Go to Democratic Underground. Hitler couldn't build
enough death camps for them - if they were subjected to the same "justice"
as Van Gogh.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:13:35 AM PST by BobL
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-To: JFK_Lib
> "Also, if the Europeans are replaced by Muslims, can this be any worse
> for us than what we have with the current atheist-secular European
> leadership? I havent liked a European head of state since Thatcher
> retired. To heck with all of them as far as I am concerned."
The European immigration would be ok for this country, certainly not
harmful.
But the true loss of Europe as a future ally (which they would become, in
my opinion, if they eliminated their Muslim problem and replaced them with
non-Muslims) bodes terribly bad for this country.
We set up NATO precisely to protect Europe from falling to the Soviets,
because we knew we were doomed if they got Europe.
Should Europe fall to the Muslims, I think they will ally with China and
we're finished. If Europe can get back with us, we could then team up (with
Russia and India) and at least put up some defense against China. My other
spreadsheet has China exceeding our GNP by 2012, and doubling our GNP by
2025 (using reasonable assumptions for growth and CIA estimates for current
GNPs). At that point, unless we have allies, what can we do?
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:21:28 AM PST by BobL
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-To: flitton
"Sanitization" brought to you by the PC, has probably had it removed from
all websites...wouldn't want the truth to get out now would they?
Get a chance to see it, drag some of the "isn't islam a religion of peace?"
dweebs with you to educate them.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:26:50 AM PST by Issaquahking
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-To: pepperdog
> I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree but I have sense enough to
> get off the track when I see a train coming.
One major reason for Europe's deer in the headlights approach to their
Muslim problem is that if they show any strength at all, it would put them
on the same side as America. They've written themselves into a corner on
that one. They would lose the supposed moral high ground and all bogus
claims of superiority over the US. They will stay the hallmark of
"tolerance" to the rest of the world even if it kills them all, which most
likely will be the end result.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:46:42 AM PST by Hillarys Gate Cult
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-To: Hillarys Gate Cult
> One major reason for Europe's deer in the headlights approach to their
> Muslim problem is that if they show any strength at all, it would put
> them on the same side as America.
That may be part of it, but primarily, I think it's because they're cowards
who are more in love with hedonism than survival.
Posted on 12/19/2004 7:54:13 AM PST by Richard Kimball
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-To: flitton
I wonder if this organization went to bat for that BNP leader that was
arrested a short while ago. I'm guessing not.
Posted on 12/19/2004 11:08:07 AM PST by jordan8
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-To: flitton
> "...In this current epoch of post-modernism and live-and-let-live
> multiculturalism, moral relativism is gaining ground. This article was
> one more instance of this relativism. Liberal humanitarian values are
> under threat. Much of this threat comes not from the far Right, but from
> the Left's moral equivocation and compromises.""
fairly well said
Posted on 12/19/2004 12:54:59 PM PST by Texas_Jarhead
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-To: BobL
I think we can beat them all with our hands tied behind our backs, as long
as we are a nation of free men who have maintained the skills and will to
fight for that freedom.
Posted on 12/19/2004 6:24:50 PM PST by JFK_Lib
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End of forwarded messages