20 best movie scores since 1960?
aliked...@hotmail.com
contempt-delereau
godfather I&II-rota
once upon a time in the west--morricone
once upon a time in america--morricone
good bad ugly--morricone
AI--williams
patton--goldman
blade runner--vangelis
lawrence of arabia--whoozits
wild bunch--fielding
jules and jim--delereau
kundun--glass
chinatown--whoozits
star wars--williams
dr. stranzhivago
sbr
I wouldn't want to put a list of twenty together, but just in reaction
to your inclusions from Williams: I'd rate Schindler's List (rich, and
very moving) and Jaws (a much more compelx and varied score than
people usually recognise) as better than those you list.
I also think the Godfather scores (which I think in part II is largely
Carmine Coppola's, though I'm willing to be corrected on this point)
are actually pretty weak, outside of a couple fo memorable main
themes.
sbr
s...@cinephobia.com
Movie reviews, essays and more at http://www.cinephobia.com
dr. stranzhivago
Jim S.
> I wouldn't want to put a list of twenty together, but just in reaction
> to your inclusions from Williams: I'd rate Schindler's List (rich, and
> very moving) and Jaws (a much more compelx and varied score than
> people usually recognise) as better than those you list.
Bravo! Jaws is STILL Williams best score, IMO, and as you say, it is so
much more than just the shark "theme."
--
Jim S.
barnaby
<aliked...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105132284.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> in no particular order:
>
> contempt-delereau
> godfather I&II-rota
> once upon a time in the west--morricone
> once upon a time in america--morricone
> good bad ugly--morricone
> AI--williams
> patton--goldman
> blade runner--vangelis
> wild bunch--fielding
> jules and jim--delereau
> kundun--glass
> star wars--williams
>
the magnificent seven (1960) --bernstein
cape fear (1962) --hermann
the last emperor (1987) --sakamoto/byrnne/su
dead again (1991) --doyle
Alpha
"Jim S." <qui...@nowayinhellcharter.net> wrote in message
news:41DF5199...@nowayinhellcharter.net...
Close Encounters. Superior.
paul packer
Spartacus ---North.
(I think Patton is Goldsmith not Goldman).
Alpha
"paul packer" <pac...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:41df7a32...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Thank you. Spartacus is brilliant.
mut...@yahoo.com
A Passage to India, 1983?
Witness, 1985.
Out of Africa, 1986.
Oscar and Lucinda, 1997.
mut...@yahoo.com
and A Beautiful Mind.
sbr
<qui...@nowayinhellcharter.net> wrote:
>
>Bravo! Jaws is STILL Williams best score, IMO, and as you say, it is so
>much more than just the shark "theme."
Indeed. It even uses a harpsichord (I believe) in one track (The 4th
of July montage - "Tourists on the Menu" in the original soundtrack).
That track is a great example of how clever the score is - it's very
upbeat and fast, yet the shark theme is subtly laid underneath the
main melody almost subliminally.
The PhAnToM
Mission.
Jim Beaver
And, Under Fire (Goldsmith).
Farewell, My Lovely (Shire)
Jim Beaver
Sam D.
Dr. No (1962) John Barry (uncredited)
From Russia with Love (1963) John Barry
Goldfinger (1964) John Barry
Thunderball (1965) John Barry
You Only Live Twice (1967) John Barry
Diamonds Are Forever (1971) John Barry
-------------------------------------------------
(Grouped together)
The Godfather (1972) Nino Rota
The Godfather Part II (1974) Nino Rota, Carmine Coppola
-------------------------------------------------
(Grouped together)
Star Wars (1977) John Williams
The Empire Strikes Back (1980) John Williams
---------------------------------------------------
The Unforgiven (1960) Dimitri Tiomkin
Born Free (1966) John Barry
Breakfast at Tiffany's (1961) Henry Mancini
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969) Burt Bacharach
Summer of '42 (1971) Michel Legrand
The Way We Were Marvin Hamlisch (1973)
Somewhere in Time (1980) John Barry
Chariots of Fire (1981) Vangelis
'Round Midnight (1986) Herbie Hancock
Beauty and the Beast (1991) Alan Menken
Titanic (1997) James Horner
Tom Zielinski
"Sam D." <bluee...@greenham.org> wrote in message
news:10u2fbn...@corp.supernews.com...
> Grouped together:
>
> Dr. No (1962) John Barry (uncredited)
> From Russia with Love (1963) John Barry
> Goldfinger (1964) John Barry
> Thunderball (1965) John Barry
> You Only Live Twice (1967) John Barry
> Diamonds Are Forever (1971) John Barry
I'm surprised you didn't include what may very well be Barry's best Bond
score, "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" (1969)
Agreed with much of the rest of your list, but this omission is glaring.
Alpha
"Jim Beaver" <jumb...@prodigy.spam> wrote in message
news:197Ed.12861$by5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Ah...someone who knows the fine Under Fire score! Highly recommended.
Nicolai P. Zwar
> @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>in no particular order:
>>
>>contempt-delereau
>>godfather I&II-rota
>>once upon a time in the west--morricone
>>once upon a time in america--morricone
>>good bad ugly--morricone
>>AI--williams
>>patton--goldman
PATTON was composed by Jerry Goldsmith.
>>blade runner--vangelis
>>lawrence of arabia--whoozits
LAWRENCE OF ARABIA was composed by Maurice Jarre.
>>wild bunch--fielding
>>jules and jim--delereau
>>kundun--glass
>>chinatown--whoozits
CHINATOWN was also composed by Jerry Goldsmith.
--
Nicolai Zwar
http://www.nicolaizwar.com
"Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants,
cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." (Yahweh, apparently throwing one
of his tantrums.)
El Klauso
No particular order...and bear in mind, the "best" designation is for
the score, not the movie itself...
North: Spartacus
Goldsmith: Patton, Planet of the Apes
Rozsa: King of Kings, El Cid
Herrmann: Psycho, Fahrenheit 451
Tiomkin: Fall of the Roman Empire
Rota: 8 1/2, La Dolce Vita
Morricone: Once upon a Time in the West
Jarre: Lawrence of Arabia
Williams: Star Wars, E.T., Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Raiders
of the Lost Ark
Rosenman: Fantastic Voyage
Glass: Mishima, Koyaanisqatsi
Elfman: Beetlejuice
sbr
wrote:
>I'm surprised you didn't include what may very well be Barry's best Bond
>score, "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" (1969)
>
>Agreed with much of the rest of your list, but this omission is glaring.
>
>
Good to see you popping up in this group, Tom - normally see you over
in the Bond group.
Without wanting to open the whole Barry / Monty Norman pandora's box,
I think it has to be added that to list John Barry as the "uncredited"
composer of Dr No isn't terribly accurate either. Arranger of Bond's
theme, yes; uncredited composer of that theme, arguably (but don't let
Norman's lawyers hear you); composer of the score - no way.
Outside of the Bond theme, it just doesn't sound like Barry at all.
And aside from a few good moments (Bond crushing the spider) and that
dynamite main theme, it isn't actually a terribly good score - a lot
of it sounds like stock action cues, rather than the more distinctive
sound Barry would craft.
Tom Zielinski
"sbr" <s...@cinephobia.com> wrote in message
news:tll9u0dakqgu88dd9...@4ax.com...
>>Agreed with much of the rest of your list, but this omission is glaring.
>>
>>
>
> Good to see you popping up in this group, Tom - normally see you over
> in the Bond group.
What's a "Bond"?
;)
Good seeing you here, as well.
Tom
foggytown
must be spinning. Also
Holdridge - "The Beastmaster"
Hopkins - "The Hustler"
Delerue - "A Man For All Seasons"
Edelman - "Gettysburg"
Barry - "The Lion In Winter"
FoggyTown
Bill Anderson
I think Max Steiner scored Gone with the Wind prior to 1960. In fact,
I'm almost pretty much kinda sorta mostly positive he did.
I'm still waiting for somebody to mention one of my favorites -- Elmer
Bernstein's score for "To Kill a Mockingbird." Anybody want to mention it?
--
Bill Anderson
I am the Mighty Favog
Peter T. Daniels
Look at the header, FoggyBrain.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Nightingale
> foggytown wrote:
>
>>Can#t believe "Gone With The Wind" hasn't had a mention yet. Steiner
>>must be spinning. Also
>>
>>Holdridge - "The Beastmaster"
>>Hopkins - "The Hustler"
>>Delerue - "A Man For All Seasons"
>>Edelman - "Gettysburg"
>>Barry - "The Lion In Winter"
>>
>>FoggyTown
>
>
> Look at the header, FoggyBrain.
You seem a bit grumpy this morning.
--
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > foggytown wrote:
> >
> >>Can#t believe "Gone With The Wind" hasn't had a mention yet. Steiner
> >>must be spinning. Also
> >>
> >>Holdridge - "The Beastmaster"
> >>Hopkins - "The Hustler"
> >>Delerue - "A Man For All Seasons"
> >>Edelman - "Gettysburg"
> >>Barry - "The Lion In Winter"
> >>
> >>FoggyTown
> >
> >
> > Look at the header, FoggyBrain.
>
> You seem a bit grumpy this morning.
Merely recalling this person's posting history.
cope...@aol.com
mut...@yahoo.com
> better get "miller's crossing" in there.
And Last of the Mohicans. I can't believe I forgot this one, maybe THE
most evocative and beautiful of all time.
Thomas Muething
Neither of those two qualify. Effective as they may be in connection
with the images, they die quickly on CD. It's good FILM music, but
mediocre (and in the case of Randy Edelman's "contributions" to LAST OF
THE MOHICANS, evern lesser) film MUSIC.
Thomas
mut...@yahoo.com
>with the images, they die quickly on CD. It's good FILM music, but
>mediocre (and in the case of Randy Edelman's "contributions" to LAST
OF
>THE MOHICANS, evern lesser) film MUSIC.
I don't understand. Why don't they qualify? At the risk of sounding
ignorant, doesn't the music in a film connote its "score?"
(Not that this will edify anyone or support my point, but the first I
heard the LOTM score was on Phil Donahue back in '93, when drag queens
put on a fashion show. I didn't realize LOTM was a big hit in the
crossdressing community.)
Thomas Muething
> I don't understand. Why don't they qualify? At the risk of sounding
> ignorant, doesn't the music in a film connote its "score?"
Good film music must be good music first. The truly great film scores,
like Bernard Herrmann's Psycho or Jerry Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes,
are supremely effective scores AND great music without the images.
Thomas
Peter T. Daniels
This remains bs, no matter how many times you repeat it.
What you get on albums of movie music is not the music played on the
soundtrack, in its few-second snippets, but arrangements made for the
purpose of selling soundtracks.
Jim Beaver
"Thomas Muething" <tmuetBUGGER-OF...@t-online.de> wrote in
message news:csaks2$hq$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
The MOHICANS CD is one of my favorite repeat listening experiences.
Jim Beaver
Thomas Muething
>
> This remains bs, no matter how many times you repeat it.
>
> What you get on albums of movie music is not the music played on the
> soundtrack, in its few-second snippets, but arrangements made for the
> purpose of selling soundtracks.
Which just shows- as if further proof were needed - your total ignorance
of both film music in general and of soundtrack releases.
Thomas
Thomas Muething
> The MOHICANS CD is one of my favorite repeat listening experiences.
That doesn't make it good music.
Thomas
Peter T. Daniels
On a few occasions I have like the music in a movie so much that I've
bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
movie.
Gareth Williams
I was particularly disappointed, when I bought the alleged soundtrack of
Michael Nyman's music for "The Draughtsman's Contract", to find that his
countertenor rearrangement of Purcell's "So when the glittering Queen of
the Night" wasn't included on the CD.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Linda
> the images, they die quickly on CD. It's good FILM music, but mediocre
> (and in the case of Randy Edelman's "contributions" to LAST OF THE
> MOHICANS, evern lesser) film MUSIC.
>
> Thomas
That's a bit like confusing "best' with "favorite". In a discussion such as
this there is no concrete "best", just an assortment of individual tastes.
You are using your
personal tastes to restrict the bounds of the discussion to only those you
feel worthy. You can disagree, but you should not disqualify other's
choices.
*FLAG* 10 yards for unnecessary pomposity.
Linda
Thomas Muething
> That's a bit like confusing "best' with "favorite".
Wrong. The questions was for "best" movie scores, not "favorite" scores.
> *FLAG* 10 yards for unnecessary pomposity.
*FLAG* Ten yards of much more unneccessary ignorance.
Thomas
Thomas Muething
> On a few occasions I have like the music in a movie so much that I've
> bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
> movie.
On the few occasions. Exactly.
Thomas
Geoff Leonard
<tmuetBUGGER-OF...@t-online.de> writes
>Linda schrieb:
>
>> That's a bit like confusing "best' with "favorite".
>
>Wrong. The questions was for "best" movie scores, not "favorite" scores.
Yes, and the fact that *you* don't think much of a score on CD matters
not one iota!!
>
>> *FLAG* 10 yards for unnecessary pomposity.
>
>*FLAG* Ten yards of much more unneccessary ignorance.
*FLAG* ten yards for talking nonsense, as usual.
--
Geoff Leonard
Thomas Muething
>>> *FLAG* 10 yards for unnecessary pomposity.
>>
>>
>> *FLAG* Ten yards of much more unneccessary ignorance.
>
>
>
> *FLAG* ten yards for talking nonsense, as usual.
*FLAG* a hundred yards, at least, for being an admirer of John Barry.
Thomas
David
>>
>>*FLAG* Ten yards of much more unneccessary ignorance.
>
>*FLAG* ten yards for talking nonsense, as usual.
How can such a harmless little question generate such vitriol?
I have no idea, but God bless Usenet!
--
Pas de lieu Rhône que nous.
Jim Beaver
> Jim Beaver schrieb:
>
>> The MOHICANS CD is one of my favorite repeat listening experiences.
>
> That doesn't make it good music.
Your saying so doesn't make it bad music either. Your remark that it "dies
quickly on CD" was what I responded to.
Clearly different people have different tastes in music. My favorite piece
of music anywhere is the French horn solo in the final movement of
Beethoven's Fifth. I know people who don't think that's so hot either.
Doesn't make either one of us right, but I retain my confidence in my own
opinion.
Jim Beaver
barnaby
What would be an example of necessary ignorance?
Linda
You amuse me, Thomas.
Since you obviously set out to antagonize and ruffle feathers, you must be
really enjoying yourself.
David's got the right idea.
Usenet melodrama at its weirdo best.
I demand my 100 yards as I too enjoy John Barry's work.
Linda
Thomas Muething
>
> You amuse me, Thomas.
> Since you obviously set out to antagonize and ruffle feathers, you must be
> really enjoying yourself.
Apparently, cross-posting the question to non-musical newsgroups wasn't
much help. It invites way too many people who are simple film geeks.
Thomas
Geoff Leonard
<tmuetBUGGER-OF...@t-online.de> writes
No, not "simple film geeks", "simply film music fans". In fact, just
the kind of people you'd expect to find in a newsgroup called
rec.music.movies.
I realise English is not your first language so I'm willing to make
allowances on this occasion.
Jim Beaver
As opposed to music geeks who are simple?
Jim Beaver
Peter T. Daniels
*Do the Right Thing* has an amazing saxophone solo of "Lift Ev'ry Voice"
(the "Negro national anthem") under the opening (and I think closing)
titles, but the soundtrack album is entirely (proto-)rap.
Peter T. Daniels
Once bitten, twice shy. Or rather, several times bitten, forever shy.
Falls under the rubric
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, er, you can't fool me again.
(Dumbya's version of Fool me twice, shame on me.)
Peter T. Daniels
What you don't know won't hurt you.
Peter T. Daniels
Thomas knows perfectly well I'm in r.m.c. I haven't been to a movie
theater in years, except for the last two times I visited a friend in DC
who doesn't have a TV. So the last two movies I've seen on the big
screen were Forces of Nature and Lost in Translation.
mut...@yahoo.com
>bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
>movie.
I don't want to get between you guys or anything, but I have to agree
with Mr. Daniels. The last CD I bought because of the film "music" was
Pirates of the Caribbean." I loved the music while the film was
underway; the score--or at least what they called the score--was a
complete disappointment.
Thomas Muething
Agreeing with a statement that doesn't have to do with anything said
before? Most film music is junk, of course, but what's your point - if any?
Thomas
Nicolai P. Zwar
> Linda schrieb:
>
>> That's a bit like confusing "best' with "favorite".
>
>
> Wrong. The questions was for "best" movie scores, not "favorite" scores.
They are not easily separated, as there is no unanimously agreed upon
way to effectively establish which piece of music is "best", so these
questions boil down to "favorites" most of the time. (Otherwise, these
discussions would have died a long time ago, because as soon as the
"best" movies/film scores/symphonies/books/plays etc. would have been
established once and for all, everybody would just move on and enjoy his
favorites.)
--
Nicolai Zwar
http://www.nicolaizwar.com
"Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants,
cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." (Yahweh, apparently throwing one
of his tantrums.)
Nicolai P. Zwar
While there are even so called "soundtrack" releases that contain music
that does not even remotely have anything to do with the music as heard
in the movie, to say that "the album never contains the same music as
the movie" is simply not true, just as it is not true that film music
cues are generally only a few seconds long.
You probably don't know that because, after all, you readily admit to
not going to the movies very often, but why do you keep insisting that
film score cues are basically "few second snippets" even though it has
been pointed out to you several times that this is not so?
It's one thing to argue over the quality of a certain film score, that's
a matter of opinion, but at least the lenght of film music cues can be
established objectively with a stopwatch, and many, many, many, many
film music cues have the length of symphony movements.
Nicolai P. Zwar
> Thomas Muething wrote:
>
>>Peter T. Daniels schrieb:
>>
>>
>>>On a few occasions I have like the music in a movie so much that I've
>>>bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
>>>movie.
>>
>>On the few occasions. Exactly.
>
>
> Once bitten, twice shy. Or rather, several times bitten, forever shy.
>
> Falls under the rubric
>
> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, er, you can't fool me again.
That's a rather silly evasion. Hey, it's okay if you don't care all that
much for music or film music, there is no need to justify it with what
seems a rather silly argumentation. According to your logic, if you read
a novel, and it was crap, you should be wary before reading another one.
If the next novel you read was also crap, you'd never read any novels
again because you have already read two that were crap. Well, most
novels _are_ crap, just as most soundtrack CDs are, or most oil
paintings. That doesn't mean all oil paintings, soundtrack CDs, or
novels are crap, though.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Thomas Muething wrote:
> >
> >>Peter T. Daniels schrieb:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On a few occasions I have like the music in a movie so much that I've
> >>>bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
> >>>movie.
> >>
> >>On the few occasions. Exactly.
> >
> >
> > Once bitten, twice shy. Or rather, several times bitten, forever shy.
> >
> > Falls under the rubric
> >
> > Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, er, you can't fool me again.
>
> That's a rather silly evasion. Hey, it's okay if you don't care all that
> much for music or film music, there is no need to justify it with what
> seems a rather silly argumentation. According to your logic, if you read
> a novel, and it was crap, you should be wary before reading another one.
> If the next novel you read was also crap, you'd never read any novels
> again because you have already read two that were crap. Well, most
> novels _are_ crap, just as most soundtrack CDs are, or most oil
> paintings. That doesn't mean all oil paintings, soundtrack CDs, or
> novels are crap, though.
But I don't read novels. (Don't go to movies, either, but see them
sometimes anyway.)
Peter T. Daniels
So the movie music was doing its job excellently!
It isn't _meant_ to be heard without the images and sounds of the movie.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Thomas Muething wrote:
> >
> >>Peter T. Daniels schrieb:
> >>
> >>>This remains bs, no matter how many times you repeat it.
> >>>
> >>>What you get on albums of movie music is not the music played on the
> >>>soundtrack, in its few-second snippets, but arrangements made for the
> >>>purpose of selling soundtracks.
> >>
> >>Which just shows- as if further proof were needed - your total ignorance
> >>of both film music in general and of soundtrack releases.
> >
> >
> > On a few occasions I have like the music in a movie so much that I've
> > bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
> > movie.
>
> While there are even so called "soundtrack" releases that contain music
> that does not even remotely have anything to do with the music as heard
> in the movie, to say that "the album never contains the same music as
> the movie" is simply not true, just as it is not true that film music
> cues are generally only a few seconds long.
"Never," of course, refers to all the occasions on which I have bought
the album.
> You probably don't know that because, after all, you readily admit to
> not going to the movies very often, but why do you keep insisting that
> film score cues are basically "few second snippets" even though it has
> been pointed out to you several times that this is not so?
> It's one thing to argue over the quality of a certain film score, that's
> a matter of opinion, but at least the lenght of film music cues can be
> established objectively with a stopwatch, and many, many, many, many
> film music cues have the length of symphony movements.
When you're watching a movie you probably aren't even aware of some of
the background music -- if it's successful background music, that is.
Once in a while the composer gets to write a set-piece, and that's what
you're aware of during the movie and what they put on the soundtrack
album.
Gareth Williams
> What you don't know won't hurt you.
Unless the thing you don't know happens to be that there's a truck with
brake failure approaching you from behind.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Nicolai P. Zwar
So you lucked out that the first two CDs of classical music you bought
weren't crap, otherwise you'd never have bothered with the rest?
Thomas Muething
Say those with barely any knowledge of the craft.
Thomas
Thomas Muething
> Once in a while the composer gets to write a set-piece, and that's what
> you're aware of during the movie and what they put on the soundtrack
> album.
Oi!
He really doesn't know anything about film music - at all.
Thomas
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>>>On a few occasions I have like the music in a movie so much that I've
> >>>>>bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
> >>>>>movie.
> >>>>
> >>>>On the few occasions. Exactly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Once bitten, twice shy. Or rather, several times bitten, forever shy.
> >>>
> >>>Falls under the rubric
> >>>
> >>>Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, er, you can't fool me again.
> >>
> >>That's a rather silly evasion. Hey, it's okay if you don't care all that
> >>much for music or film music, there is no need to justify it with what
> >>seems a rather silly argumentation. According to your logic, if you read
> >>a novel, and it was crap, you should be wary before reading another one.
> >>If the next novel you read was also crap, you'd never read any novels
> >>again because you have already read two that were crap. Well, most
> >>novels _are_ crap, just as most soundtrack CDs are, or most oil
> >>paintings. That doesn't mean all oil paintings, soundtrack CDs, or
> >>novels are crap, though.
> >
> >
> > But I don't read novels. (Don't go to movies, either, but see them
> > sometimes anyway.)
>
> So you lucked out that the first two CDs of classical music you bought
> weren't crap, otherwise you'd never have bothered with the rest?
I was going to concerts before I bought my first LPs, and I was buying
LPs many, many years before CDs existed.
(The first LPs that were my own and not borrowed from the library were a
Boult Planets and a Sargent Messiah and a couple of others that came
from my school bazaar in 1967. In those days I would go to the Public
Library at Lincoln Center and borrow both score and recording of
whatever seemed interesting at the moment. No, earlier than that I would
get them from the Donnell Library on 53rd St., which was where the
circulating music collection was before the Lincoln Center library
opened.)
Peter T. Daniels
Exactly: it's a craft, one of the many that go into making a
Gesamtkunstwerk, a movie.
If you find an actor doing such a bravado job on the screen (or the
stage) that while you're watching the performance you're marveling at
his/her technique, then the actor has failed utterly. Likewise for every
other component of the movie.
Peter T. Daniels
There is _nothing_ to be known about "film music." It's music that works
with everything else in a movie to produce the desired effect.
Nicolai P. Zwar
As I have developed an active interest in film music and been engaged in
the subject matter one way or another for more than twenty-five years,
I'd say that happens very rarely.
> Once in a while the composer gets to write a set-piece, and that's what
> you're aware of during the movie and what they put on the soundtrack
> album.
If you, as you say, aren't aware of much of the "background" music in
films, and you also admit to not seeing movies very often, how come you
keep insisting that it's unusual for film music to consist of cues that
are longer than a few second snippets? Where do you get your knowledge?
It is not correct, believe me.
Nicolai P. Zwar
This statement of course makes as much sense as:
There is _nothing_ to be known about opera music. It's music that works
with everything else in an opera to produce the desired effect.
There is _nothing_ to be known about symphony music. It's music that
works in a concert hall to produce the desired effect.
There is _nothing_ to be known about elevator music. It's music that
works in elevators to produce the desired effect.
There is _nothing_ to be known about ballet music. It's music that
works with everything else on stage to produce the desired effect.
There is _nothing_ to be known about piano concerto music. It's piano
music that works with music of other instruments to produce the desired
effect.
--
Nicolai P. Zwar
But just imagine if the first two concerts of classical music you went
to had been crap. You'd have a different hobby nowadays.
Nicolai P. Zwar
> Thomas Muething wrote:
>
>>Peter T. Daniels schrieb:
>>
>>>mut...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>On a few occasions I have like the music in a movie so much that I've
>>>>>bought the album, and the album never contains the same music as the
>>>>>movie.
>>>>
>>>>I don't want to get between you guys or anything, but I have to agree
>>>>with Mr. Daniels. The last CD I bought because of the film "music" was
>>>>Pirates of the Caribbean." I loved the music while the film was
>>>>underway; the score--or at least what they called the score--was a
>>>>complete disappointment.
>>>
>>>
>>>So the movie music was doing its job excellently!
>>>
>>>It isn't _meant_ to be heard without the images and sounds of the movie.
>>
>>Say those with barely any knowledge of the craft.
>
>
> Exactly: it's a craft, one of the many that go into making a
> Gesamtkunstwerk, a movie.
This, of course, is absolutely true.
> If you find an actor doing such a bravado job on the screen (or the
> stage) that while you're watching the performance you're marveling at
> his/her technique, then the actor has failed utterly.
This, of course, is absolutely not true.
> Likewise for every
> other component of the movie.
This, of course, is also not true.
barnaby
> mut...@yahoo.com schrieb:
> Good film music must be good music first.
I think you choose to forget that good film music might be good for reasons
other than simply being good music to listen to out of context.
Music may be used to effectively build tension through a scene, or to
provide a leit motif that helps organize the film, to foreshadow or set a
mood, sometimes in a near subliminal way and sometimes in a way that
foregrounds the music itself.
Film music is part of its context, its place in the whole, first. That is
its birth and reason to be. When it is also delightful to listen to outside
that context, that's wonderful, but it's not necessary to its being great
film music. Unless you don't consider incidental and functional pieces
fully music somehow?
The truly great film scores,
> like Bernard Herrmann's Psycho or Jerry Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes,
> are supremely effective scores AND great music without the images.
These are good examples of great scores, certainly. Goldsmith is wonderful
with big brassy fanfare moments, and he keeps the action flowing and on
films like Tora Tora Tora and Patton. I am a great admirer of Herrmann and
mentioned his Cape Fear earlier in this thread, a score I find particularly
evocative of long drawn-out tensions and terrors as opposed to the more
staccato Psycho. Cape Fear is one of those marvellous Herrmann marriages of
music with set and scenary that seem almost synesthetic, like the caverns
and the music in Journey to the Centre of the Earth.
But Herrmann is also a master of incidental music in his films, and
Goldsmith understands very well how a leit motif, like that theme in Patton,
can help bring structure and form to an episodic narrative. These artists
have composed great scores because they understand that music may have
functions in film that are not considerations in songs or concert music.
>
> Thomas
>
George Peatty
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>There is _nothing_ to be known about "film music." It's music that works
>with everything else in a movie to produce the desired effect.
If you want to know better, go over to the classic film message board at
imdb, and say that. Several folks over there would take detailed exception.
Peter T. Daniels
The first classical concert I remember going to was a children's concert
at CCNY including Carnival of the Animals, and I remember being
disappointed that there wasn't a full orchestra like I'd seen on Lenny's
Young People's Concerts.
The Children's Choir at Presbyterian church got to join the Adult Choir
for the Hallelujah Chorus in the annual Christmas Portion of the Messiah
Candlelight Service, at 4 pm Sunday afternoon. I played the Page in
Amahl in that same church in 1966 or 67. (It was going to be my best
friend, because his kid brother was Amahl [and a very good one, too],
and the m.d. thought it would be cute for them to be the opposing
forces, but my friend chickened out.) Mother was Mollie Knight, who had
been Barbara Cook's understudy in Candide about a decade earlier.
Give it up, Nick. You're not going to find a parallel.
Peter T. Daniels
Maybe, if they weren't bored to tears long ago, folks from the two
"films" groups will comment.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Thomas Muething wrote:
> >
> >>Peter T. Daniels schrieb:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Once in a while the composer gets to write a set-piece, and that's what
> >>>you're aware of during the movie and what they put on the soundtrack
> >>>album.
> >>
> >>Oi!
> >>
> >>He really doesn't know anything about film music - at all.
> >
> >
> > There is _nothing_ to be known about "film music." It's music that works
> > with everything else in a movie to produce the desired effect.
>
> This statement of course makes as much sense as:
>
> There is _nothing_ to be known about opera music. It's music that works
> with everything else in an opera to produce the desired effect.
true
> There is _nothing_ to be known about symphony music. It's music that
> works in a concert hall to produce the desired effect.
don't be stupid
> There is _nothing_ to be known about elevator music. It's music that
> works in elevators to produce the desired effect.
true
> There is _nothing_ to be known about ballet music. It's music that
> works with everything else on stage to produce the desired effect.
true,referring to music composed specifically to be a ballet. Why do you
suppose there are _suites_ of ballet music? For exactly the same reason
movie CDs don't present all the music used in a movie without
arrangement.
> There is _nothing_ to be known about piano concerto music. It's piano
> music that works with music of other instruments to produce the desired
> effect.
don't be stupid
Peter T. Daniels
Every year I sit through the NPR Weekend Edition Sunday sessions with
Andy Trudeau, their "music director," who makes Oscar predictions about
"Best Score" while proudly announcing that he hasn't seen the movies in
question. It's a waste of nearly 60 minutes of airtime (over three
episodes each year) on a program that's only two hours a week, much of
which is taken up by network news, local news, and advertising (which
they call "underwriting announcements").
Peter T. Daniels
> > When you're watching a movie you probably aren't even aware of some of
> > the background music -- if it's successful background music, that is.
>
> As I have developed an active interest in film music and been engaged in
> the subject matter one way or another for more than twenty-five years,
> I'd say that happens very rarely.
Then you're not watching the movie, you're attending to what's not
intended to be heard consciously.
> > Once in a while the composer gets to write a set-piece, and that's what
> > you're aware of during the movie and what they put on the soundtrack
> > album.
>
> If you, as you say, aren't aware of much of the "background" music in
> films, and you also admit to not seeing movies very often, how come you
> keep insisting that it's unusual for film music to consist of cues that
> are longer than a few second snippets? Where do you get your knowledge?
> It is not correct, believe me.
Are you not aware that movies are available on TV and video and DVD?
Peter T. Daniels
> The truly great film scores,
> > like Bernard Herrmann's Psycho or Jerry Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes,
> > are supremely effective scores AND great music without the images.
>
> These are good examples of great scores, certainly. Goldsmith is wonderful
> with big brassy fanfare moments, and he keeps the action flowing and on
> films like Tora Tora Tora and Patton. I am a great admirer of Herrmann and
> mentioned his Cape Fear earlier in this thread, a score I find particularly
> evocative of long drawn-out tensions and terrors as opposed to the more
> staccato Psycho. Cape Fear is one of those marvellous Herrmann marriages of
> music with set and scenary that seem almost synesthetic, like the caverns
> and the music in Journey to the Centre of the Earth.
Hitchcock intended the shower scene in Psycho to not have music, but let
Herrmann show him what he had in mind. It intensifies the scene
immeasurably -- but the shower scene music isn't something you could
play as a concert piece.
The other classic example of that is Jaws, where (unlike today's movies)
it's not the shark you see but the music you hear that builds the
tension for at least an hour.
And then, very rarely, there are the nonmusical films where music is
part of the plot: M, Casablanca.
Flavius Vespasianus
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> in no particular order:
>
> contempt-delereau
> godfather I&II-rota
> once upon a time in the west--morricone
> once upon a time in america--morricone
> good bad ugly--morricone
> AI--williams
> patton--goldman
> blade runner--vangelis
> lawrence of arabia--whoozits
> wild bunch--fielding
> jules and jim--delereau
> kundun--glass
> chinatown--whoozits
> star wars--williams
>
Some other suggestions off the top of my head:
MacArthur - Goldsmith
A Bridge too Far - Addison
Stargate - D. Arnold
The Empire Strikes Back - Williams
Never Say Never Again - Legrand
The Guns of Navarone - Tiomkin
How about the Worst Scores that Won the Academy Award for "Best Score"
The Right Stuff would be my nomination.
how...@brazee.net
movie better, and not counting movies such as _Immortal Beloved_.
how...@brazee.net
On 16-Jan-2005, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Hitchcock intended the shower scene in Psycho to not have music, but let
> Herrmann show him what he had in mind. It intensifies the scene
> immeasurably -- but the shower scene music isn't something you could
> play as a concert piece.
>
> The other classic example of that is Jaws, where (unlike today's movies)
> it's not the shark you see but the music you hear that builds the
> tension for at least an hour.
>
> And then, very rarely, there are the nonmusical films where music is
> part of the plot: M, Casablanca.
There also is the movie where music is a major part of the plot. The movie
is about music and/or musicians.
Nicolai P. Zwar
Did you feel "fooled once" at that time? Obviously you were willing to
give it another shot? How come? What if the next two concerts you'd have
seen had been crap?
>
> The Children's Choir at Presbyterian church got to join the Adult Choir
> for the Hallelujah Chorus in the annual Christmas Portion of the Messiah
> Candlelight Service, at 4 pm Sunday afternoon. I played the Page in
> Amahl in that same church in 1966 or 67. (It was going to be my best
> friend, because his kid brother was Amahl [and a very good one, too],
> and the m.d. thought it would be cute for them to be the opposing
> forces, but my friend chickened out.) Mother was Mollie Knight, who had
> been Barbara Cook's understudy in Candide about a decade earlier.
>
> Give it up, Nick. You're not going to find a parallel.
I don't have to find it, it is already there out in the open for
everyone to see.
Nicolai P. Zwar
> Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
>
>>Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Thomas Muething wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Peter T. Daniels schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Once in a while the composer gets to write a set-piece, and that's what
>>>>>you're aware of during the movie and what they put on the soundtrack
>>>>>album.
>>>>
>>>>Oi!
>>>>
>>>>He really doesn't know anything about film music - at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>There is _nothing_ to be known about "film music." It's music that works
>>>with everything else in a movie to produce the desired effect.
>>
>>This statement of course makes as much sense as:
>>
>>There is _nothing_ to be known about opera music. It's music that works
>>with everything else in an opera to produce the desired effect.
>
>
> true
>
>
>>There is _nothing_ to be known about symphony music. It's music that
>>works in a concert hall to produce the desired effect.
>
>
> don't be stupid
Hey, it's your statement. I'm just applying it. These two statments are
practically identical. Why do you find one more stupid than the other?
>>There is _nothing_ to be known about elevator music. It's music that
>>works in elevators to produce the desired effect.
>
>
> true
>
>
>>There is _nothing_ to be known about ballet music. It's music that
>>works with everything else on stage to produce the desired effect.
>
>
> true,referring to music composed specifically to be a ballet. Why do you
> suppose there are _suites_ of ballet music?
What does that have to do with anything? Where have I said that there
aren't ballet music suites?
> For exactly the same reason
> movie CDs don't present all the music used in a movie without
> arrangement.
The problem is that from the fact that this is often true (in the past
more often than today), you conclude that it is always true. Again,
that's analog to concluding that there are no complete ballet scores on
CD because you have heard a few CDs where the ballet music is arranged
in a suite. Yet the fact remains that there _are_ quite a few complete
ballets available on CD, and the fact remains that there _are_ quite a
few complete film scores available on CD.
>>There is _nothing_ to be known about piano concerto music. It's piano
>>music that works with music of other instruments to produce the desired
>>effect.
>
>
> don't be stupid
See above.
Thomas Muething
>
> Hitchcock intended the shower scene in Psycho to not have music, but let
> Herrmann show him what he had in mind. It intensifies the scene
> immeasurably -- but the shower scene music isn't something you could
> play as a concert piece.
It's not meant as a concert piece.
>
> The other classic example of that is Jaws, where (unlike today's movies)
> it's not the shark you see but the music you hear that builds the
> tension for at least an hour.
And, a rip-off of Bernard Herrmann.
>
> And then, very rarely, there are the nonmusical films where music is
> part of the plot: M, Casablanca.
That's something entirely different: on-screen music.
Thomas
Thomas Muething
> But just imagine if the first two concerts of classical music you went
> to had been crap. You'd have a different hobby nowadays.
Exactly. That's why he has two modern paintings in his home, two bottles
of California Cabernet Sauvignon and two specially designed modern
chairs delivered to him via mail order. Come to think of it, there's
lots of pairs of non-identical pieces of of genre/craft/kind oin his
home. Wonder why ...
Thomas
Thomas Muething
>
> *Do the Right Thing* has an amazing saxophone solo of "Lift Ev'ry Voice"
> (the "Negro national anthem") under the opening (and I think closing)
> titles, but the soundtrack album is entirely (proto-)rap.
While you two are going to lengths illustrating your non-knowledge of
film music,I'd suggest, for the few people who actually care, a visit to
the Film Score Monthly dicussion board, to get some serious , first-hand
impressions of film music and the discussion thereof.
And since some people know just how much I detest Lukas Kendall, that
should give you an idea of how necessary I think a proper understanding
of that most underrated art/craft of them all is called for!
Thomas
Thomas Muething
>
> Every year I sit through the NPR Weekend Edition Sunday sessions with
> Andy Trudeau, their "music director," who makes Oscar predictions about
> "Best Score" while proudly announcing that he hasn't seen the movies in
> question. It's a waste of nearly 60 minutes of airtime (over three
> episodes each year) on a program that's only two hours a week, much of
> which is taken up by network news, local news, and advertising (which
> they call "underwriting announcements").
So what? Oscars for Best Score (as, in fact, all categories) have to do
exclusively with politics, not music (nor the quality of which).
Thomas
Nicolai P. Zwar
> Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
>
>
>>>When you're watching a movie you probably aren't even aware of some of
>>>the background music -- if it's successful background music, that is.
>>
>>As I have developed an active interest in film music and been engaged in
>>the subject matter one way or another for more than twenty-five years,
>>I'd say that happens very rarely.
>
>
> Then you're not watching the movie, you're attending to what's not
> intended to be heard consciously.
Only if you are limiting the meaning "watching a movie" to be mindlessly
unaware of any of the aspects that went into making the movie. That may
be one way to enjoy a movie, but certainly not the only one, and
certainly not mine. There are people who enjoy Hemingway or Joyce
without being aware of the prose, but again, that may be one way to
enjoy a book, but certainly not mine. As Max Steiner, noted composer of
such movies as KING KONG, GONE WITH THE WIND, and THE TREASURE OF THE
SIERRA MADRE has said about film music, "if you can't hear it, what the
hell good is it?".
Do you really think the directors intended the music "not to be heard"
in movies such as ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, THE OMEN, STAR WARS, A
CLOCKWORK ORANGE, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, CASABLANCA, VERTIGO, TAXI
DRIVER, THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN, to name just a few? Then they sure did a
poor job, as even the most musically ignorant person is likely to be
aware of the music while watching these movies.
Thomas Muething
> Are you not aware that movies are available on TV and video and DVD?
Sorry, but that would only be an argument if your comments on film music
showed ANY insight on the structure/history of the craft. Unfortunately,
they display only total ignorance. You have not *digested* film music in
any form, or in any medium. You simply don't understand it.
And, as such, your comments are an insult not only to the many talented,
hard-working and distinguished gentlemen who are working, or worked, in
that field, but indeed of any person even remotely concerned about that
particular field of music. Even of Geoff Leonard.
Thomas
Nicolai P. Zwar
> barnaby wrote:
>
>
>>The truly great film scores,
>>
>>>like Bernard Herrmann's Psycho or Jerry Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes,
>>>are supremely effective scores AND great music without the images.
>>
>>These are good examples of great scores, certainly. Goldsmith is wonderful
>>with big brassy fanfare moments, and he keeps the action flowing and on
>>films like Tora Tora Tora and Patton. I am a great admirer of Herrmann and
>>mentioned his Cape Fear earlier in this thread, a score I find particularly
>>evocative of long drawn-out tensions and terrors as opposed to the more
>>staccato Psycho. Cape Fear is one of those marvellous Herrmann marriages of
>>music with set and scenary that seem almost synesthetic, like the caverns
>>and the music in Journey to the Centre of the Earth.
>
>
> Hitchcock intended the shower scene in Psycho to not have music, but let
> Herrmann show him what he had in mind. It intensifies the scene
> immeasurably -- but the shower scene music isn't something you could
> play as a concert piece.
Yes, you can. And yes, it's been done.
> The other classic example of that is Jaws, where (unlike today's movies)
> it's not the shark you see but the music you hear that builds the
> tension for at least an hour.
We agree there.
Nicolai P. Zwar
> It seems that people are discussing scores that were designed to make the
> movie better, and not counting movies such as _Immortal Beloved_.
That's because _Immortal Beloved_ had no actual film score.
Thomas Muething
> There is _nothing_ to be known about "film music." It's music that works
> with everything else in a movie to produce the desired effect.
For you, there is *everything* to be known about film music, and
*nothing* you know already. It's not just background scoring, it's - at
its best - independent music, that, apart from fulfilling its role
within a drama framework, can hold its head head up high in the company
of avantgarde concert music of the late 20th century. But you wouldn't
know about that, would you ...
Thomas
Thomas Muething
> If you want to know better, go over to the classic film message board at
> imdb, and say that. Several folks over there would take detailed exception.
Unfortunately, this is not the case. Peter Daniels *is* an active, if
narrowed and senile, discussion member of one of the ng's exclusively
concerned with classical music, and, by and large, those fellows are
both totally ignorant of film music and, at the same time, obnoxiously
arrogant about its quality. It's much like the image you get from
published opinion - if they wantto say anything *disrespectful* of a
certain orchestral work, they say: Sounds like film music.
Of course, they have not the slightest notion about what film music
actually sounds like ...
Thomas
Thomas Muething
> Exactly: it's a craft, one of the many that go into making a
> Gesamtkunstwerk, a movie.
All art is craft, and first of all, craft.
>
> If you find an actor doing such a bravado job on the screen (or the
> stage) that while you're watching the performance you're marveling at
> his/her technique, then the actor has failed utterly. Likewise for every
> other component of the movie.
Nope. You failed again.
Music can be excellent functional music *and* excellent music at the
same time. The cream of the crop (like the worksof Bernard Herrmann,
Jerry Goldsmith, Erich Korngold, or - sometimes - John Williams) have
proven that.
Thomas
Thomas Muething
> No, not "simple film geeks", "simply film music fans". In fact, just
> the kind of people you'd expect to find in a newsgroup called
> rec.music.movies.
Yes,many indeed are simple folks.
>
> I realise English is not your first language so I'm willing to make
> allowances on this occasion.
Don't make allowances. Do I make allowances for people such as yourself,
who can barely get their head out between James Fitzpatrick's buttocks
just to listen to two seconds of music, and, even before they can get an
idea of what it all means, have their heads stuck between those two
giant buttocks again?
Thomas