How can a person with an I.Q. over 50 really like RAP "music"?

[Irish Mike]

Watched a little of the music awards last night and have a serious
question. How can any person with an I.Q. over 50 really like RAP
"music"? And I use the word "music" only in the generic sense.
Seriously, it is just a bunch of silly, pretentious, frequently vulgar
non-musical crap. And the idea that any intelligent, thinking person
would actually pay hard-earned money to buy it is just stunning.

Although, I guess RAP could be considered a form of musical affirmative
action. It provides people who can't sing or play an instrument a way to
call themselves "musical artists".

And before the left wing loons begin hysterically screaming racist, let me
make it clear that I include white RAP "artists" like emiem (or however he
spells it) Vanilla Ice (who I think is now a carpenter) and others as
being just as talentless. I also happen to like the music of some black
musicians, with the emphasis on actually singing and actually playing
instruments.

On a brighter note (pun intended) it seems these RAP "artists"
periodically shoot each other to death to prove their "street creds".
Mother Nature's natural check and balance.

Irish Mike

[nick]

On May 20, 8:16 am, "Irish Mike" <ad7c...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> Watched a little of the music awards last night and have a serious
> question.  How can any person with an I.Q. over 50 really like RAP
> "music"?

Rap music has to be good. Star Trek Into Darkness is set in 2259 and
people are still listening to the same rap music we're listening to
now. It must age well.

[moviePig]

I think that's where 'into darkness' comes in. Although I can't buy I
Mike's (e.g.) IQ conclusions, I have long wondered that "rap star"
seems vastly more appropriate than "rap artist". Offhand, I can't
think of another discipline so arbitrary.

- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com

[calvin]

On May 20, 8:50 am, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:
> I think that's where 'into darkness' comes in.  Although I can't buy I
> Mike's (e.g.) IQ conclusions, I have long wondered that "rap star"
> seems vastly more appropriate than "rap artist".  Offhand, I can't
> think of another discipline so arbitrary.

Of course they're artists, and I know this because rap
connoisseurs have often been kind enough to offer
the public free mini-concerts using state-of-the-art-high
volume auto stereo systems that we can hear both
while driving and while stopped at service stations and
convenience stores. These repeated exposures allow
us to fully grasp the intricate subtleties of this complex
music.

[nick]

You classical music fans can't handle music fueled by capitalist
desire. You only like the music that needs patronage and government
support to survive.

[moviePig]

On May 20, 9:24 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:

While I nodded, nearly napping
Suddenly there came a rapping
Rapping, rapping, rapping, rapping
From a face in need of slapping...

[really real]

I've been a huge fan of popular music since the 50s and I must say that
I have a real problem with rap music. I did like Grandmaster Flash's The
Message, but after that, all the rap music seemed absurdly repetitious
and without much meaning at all.

Eminem makes me laugh sometimes, and his movie was good, but not enough
to make me a fan.

I know that my criticisms of rap are similar to the way my parents
reacted to rock n roll, but still, Chuck Berry seems a hell of a lot
better than any rap song I've heard.

[reilloc]

Well, stick with Slim Whitman, then. If, someday, your measurable IQ
hits 50, you might have the answer you seek.

LNC

[occam]

On 20/05/2013 14:16, Irish Mike wrote:
> Watched a little of the music awards last night and have a serious
> question. How can any person with an I.Q. over 50 really like RAP
> "music"? And I use the word "music" only in the generic sense.
> Seriously, it is just a bunch of silly, pretentious, frequently vulgar
> non-musical crap. And the idea that any intelligent, thinking person
> would actually pay hard-earned money to buy it is just stunning.
>

Would 'rap poetry' suit you better? It has words and rhythm - and that
is one acceptable form of music. As for you not liking it, this is
irrelevant in the grander scheme of things. (Just for your information,
I do not appreciate rap much either. However, you may want to watch
Dustin Hoffman's 'Quartet' and get a different perspective. )

[occam]

Given that this post is in rec.art.movies,... watch 'Quartet'. I think
Dustin Hoffman agrees with you.

[calvin]

Netflix has it, but unfortunately only in 'save' status.

[Alan Smithee]

Later he can move to the harder stuff like Roger Whittaker and Richard
Clayderman.

[trotsky]

Thanks for putting a punctuation mark on how badly the GOP is dying.
Having only old white people in your party won't win you any more
elections ever.


--
Never post something on the internet unless you have a point of
reference. You will look like a moron otherwise.

[trotsky]

Imagine how listeners of classical music felt when jazz became the
popular music of the day.

[trotsky]

That's mean. Just because he has the complete Zamfir collection doesn't
make him a musical ignoramus.

[really real]

On 5/20/2013 10:24 AM, trotsky wrote:
> On 5/20/13 8:56 AM, really real wrote:
>> I've been a huge fan of popular music since the 50s and I must say that
>> I have a real problem with rap music. I did like Grandmaster Flash's The
>> Message, but after that, all the rap music seemed absurdly repetitious
>> and without much meaning at all.
>>
>> Eminem makes me laugh sometimes, and his movie was good, but not enough
>> to make me a fan.
>>
>> I know that my criticisms of rap are similar to the way my parents
>> reacted to rock n roll, but still, Chuck Berry seems a hell of a lot
>> better than any rap song I've heard.
>
>
> Imagine how listeners of classical music felt when jazz became the
> popular music of the day.
>
>

Exactly, but that doesn't mean that a totally worthless style of music
can't come along and capture the ears and wallets of kids.

[really real]

Yes, that movie gave a very positive critique of rap music

[moviePig]

I'm no big fan of jazz or Gregorian chants, but I can recognize them
as enjoyed via the odd faculty that lets us enjoy music in the first
place. Rap, otoh, is,,, something else.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 2:06:15 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>
> I'm no big fan of jazz or Gregorian chants, but I can recognize them
> as enjoyed via the odd faculty that lets us enjoy music in the first
> place. Rap, otoh, is,,, something else.
>

What a bunch of old white geezers. First off, anybody that listens to rap really doesn't care -- and this is directed at the thread and not, eg, mPig -- what y'awl think and second, hiphop and rap have created some great sounds and more importantly have struck a nerve way beyond their cultural centers. You sound like a bunch of Polka mavens or easy listening fans in the early days of rock'n'roll or jazz. Oh, wait, that was "black" music too. It's not a black thing, but you still don't get it . . .

[calvin]

On May 20, 2:29 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 20, 2013 2:06:15 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>
> > I'm no big fan of jazz or Gregorian chants, but I can recognize them
> > as enjoyed via the odd faculty that lets us enjoy music in the first
> > place.  Rap, otoh, is,,, something else.
>
> What a bunch of old white geezers. First off, anybody that

> listens to rap really doesn't care -- ...

They don't care about your support either; and
by the way, you're probably much closer to old
white geezerhood than to their 'hood.

[trotsky]

Perhaps, but I seem to have a problem with anonyshits on the internet as
the arbiters of what's "totally worthless".

[trotsky]

Mpig, are you feeling okay? All this is is a variation on "beauty is in
the eye of the beholder." If you claim that your tastes supersede the
tastes of others I have a copy of "Mein Kampf" you can read. Prior to
that, please re-read my sig line.

[trotsky]

I concur wholeheartedly.

[moviePig]

On May 20, 2:54 pm, SLGreg <SLG...@madeitup.com> wrote:

> "Get off my lawn."

Or, as I like to think, "To each his own fertilizer..."

[moviePig]

On May 20, 2:29 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:

"Yaw'l"? Y'all cain't be from Dixie.. Meanwhile, if my rejection of
rap were mere musical hubris, I'd own up to it. But, e.g., though I
don't readily get jazz, I can hear virtuosity, skill, and talent in
the practice of it ... more or less correlating to "expert" verdicts
thereof (...and sometimes I even enjoy the stuff). Whereas with rap,
I harbor a gnawing notion that, rather than through genius, its
celebrities' stature is gained mostly via a marketing lotto and a
managed popular consensus of what's/who's cool (...or is it 'dope'?)

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 3:37:50 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>
> Or, as I like to think, "To each his own fertilizer..."
>

And what is that "fertilizer" used for? The same damn flower over and over again. What is left in this forum -- for the most part -- is angry whites dudes that are looking to reinforce if not their fears than their sense of what should be. That's why I stopped posting reviews here. Nobody here -- again, for the most part -- gives a shit about any film that doesn't exist within a very narrow definition and we end up talking about the same shit over and over again. Did I say "shit"? I meant fertilizer.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 3:51:44 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>
> "Yaw'l"? Y'all cain't be from Dixie.. Meanwhile, if my rejection of
> rap were mere musical hubris, I'd own up to it. But, e.g., though I
> don't readily get jazz, I can hear virtuosity, skill, and talent in
> the practice of it ... more or less correlating to "expert" verdicts
> thereof (...and sometimes I even enjoy the stuff). Whereas with rap,
> I harbor a gnawing notion that, rather than through genius, its
> celebrities' stature is gained mostly via a marketing lotto and a
> managed popular consensus of what's/who's cool (...or is it 'dope'?)
>

I did live down south for a long spell. Once again, you're evaluating something based on your terms. And even once again, "via marketing"? What movement, genre, expression has been saved from that taint?

[calvin]

On May 20, 3:06 pm, trotsky <gmsi...@email.com> wrote:
> ... All this is is a variation on "beauty is in

> the eye of the beholder."  If you claim that your tastes supersede the
> tastes of others I have a copy of "Mein Kampf" you can read.  Prior to
> that, please re-read my sig line.

The tastes of each of us supercede the tastes of others
in what we prefer to see or listen to. No one here is suggesting
exhibitions of 'degenerate art' such as those Hitler sponsored,
or of outlawing anything.

More common, though, is the tactic of you and William in
suggesting that people who don't like whatever is the
flavor of the month (or decade) for the young or the black
are not 'cool' or 'hip', or not whatever is the preferred slang
of the month (or decade).

[moviePig]

On May 20, 3:06 pm, trotsky <gmsi...@email.com> wrote:

Well, it'd take some good science to convince me that the "eye of the
beholder" isn't really the "ear of the believer". I mean, what is it
that the average successful rapper (you can say who) brings to the
collective human sensory banquet? Their unique sound? (See John
Cage.) Their ability to keep time? (Buy a metronome.) Their
insightful rhymes? (See Shakespeare, Wm.) Their subversiveness?
(See their bank accounts.) I get that there'll always be fads, but it
seems worth recognizing them as such in real time. (And, before
anyone accuses me of fogeyism or ethnic bias, I doubt I'd have
thrilled, either, to Rudy Vallee's megaphone...)

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:10:55 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>
> Well, it'd take some good science to convince me that the "eye of the
> beholder" isn't really the "ear of the believer". I mean, what is it
> that the average successful rapper (you can say who) brings to the
> collective human sensory banquet? Their unique sound? (See John
> Cage.) Their ability to keep time? (Buy a metronome.) Their
> insightful rhymes? (See Shakespeare, Wm.) Their subversiveness?
> (See their bank accounts.) I get that there'll always be fads, but it
> seems worth recognizing them as such in real time. (And, before
> anyone accuses me of fogeyism or ethnic bias, I doubt I'd have
> thrilled, either, to Rudy Vallee's megaphone...)
>

The exact same argument could be used to dismiss Bob Dylan or the Beach Boys or the Beatles and has probably been used by music critics of their time.

[moviePig]

Then you'd better hold your nose through the coming weekend's
bouquet: FAST AND FURIOUS 6...

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:21:52 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:

> Then you'd better hold your nose through the coming weekend's
> bouquet: FAST AND FURIOUS 6...
>

Let me get this straight: You watch that shit and you bitch about rap?

[moviePig]

That's true. But (in a fit of topicality) let's consider a film-
related area: actor quality. Even though egos, agents, studios, and a
film-illiterate public conspire to gate-keep the road up stardom's
mountain, I think we can all point out numerous instances where sheer
blinding talent has forced its way to the fore. I see such instances
also in (formal) music, novels, dance, painting, poetry, and other
fields distant to me. But in rap, not so much...

[really real]

C'mon, gimme a break. I try to listen to rap cds, I bought the book of
rap lyrics, I pay attention to intelligent people who tell me rap is a
worthwhile genre. But then I look at Public Enemy prancing around the
stage with what appears to my ears to be rather infantile rhymes.

I notice a lot of rap incorporates background melodies. Some of its
Jamaican sounding. I'd just be happy to keep the rap to a small part of
the song, like in Blondie's Rapture.

[moviePig]

Probably. Indeed, Dylan at the outset was a joke to some of us. But
he eventually (pretty quickly, actually) "became" brilliant. And,
even at the outset, I don't think (anyway) that I'd have been totally
incredulous if shown that destiny for him. Rap, otoh, strikes me
strongly as having the durability prospects of a mayfly...

[moviePig]

Well, I would if it were in 3D. Since it's not, I'll wait for DVD to
see what is apparently a pretty amazing wall-to-wall stunt action
fest. Meanwhile, I don't mean to "bitch" about rap, but rather about
its conferred status as art.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:33:50 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:

> That's true. But (in a fit of topicality) let's consider a film-
> related area: actor quality. Even though egos, agents, studios, and a
> film-illiterate public conspire to gate-keep the road up stardom's
> mountain, I think we can all point out numerous instances where sheer
> blinding talent has forced its way to the fore. I see such instances
> also in (formal) music, novels, dance, painting, poetry, and other
> fields distant to me. But in rap, not so much...
>

There's a fallacy inherent in your argument. Take an actor such as Paul Muni or -- dare I say it -- Laurence Olivier -- who were gods in their time and now their burning stars have diminished to a twinkle. And, no, talent in films -- if we're talking Hollywood -- doesn't force its way to the fore. You're buying into the marketing, right there. It is all quite calculated. The more I learn about how Hollywood actually worked, the less I like it. I don't think your analogy has a basis for comparison.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:40:16 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:

> Probably. Indeed, Dylan at the outset was a joke to some of us. Bu

> he eventually (pretty quickly, actually) "became" brilliant. And,
> even at the outset, I don't think (anyway) that I'd have been totally
> incredulous if shown that destiny for him. Rap, otoh, strikes me
> strongly as having the durability prospects of a mayfly...
>

It's been around since the late 1970s. There goes that argument.

[moviePig]

I'm not claiming there's anything close to a perfect selection process
where good ultimately triumphs. Nor will I give examples, where
personal preference might wrongly weaken my point. But I certainly
hope you've had numerous experiences of your own where an actor's
performance has slackened your jaw and you've said to yourself, "Wow,
that's why they're up there..."

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:53:51 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:

> I'm not claiming there's anything close to a perfect selection process
> where good ultimately triumphs. Nor will I give examples, where
> personal preference might wrongly weaken my point. But I certainly
> hope you've had numerous experiences of your own where an actor's
> performance has slackened your jaw and you've said to yourself, "Wow,
> that's why they're up there..."
>

Agreed. That wasn't, however, the point that you made.

[moviePig]

The point I meant to make is that I get those experiences even in
fields I don't deliberately frequent. But not in rap, which seems to
me far too heterogeneous to embody genius.

[calvin]

On May 20, 4:53 pm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:
> I'm not claiming there's anything close to a perfect selection process

> where good ultimately triumphs. ...

Then go with old geezerhood, with all of the good stuff (to you)
spread out before you. I re-listen to the sounds of long ago,
sometimes, for example, a series of Dylan albums, or a couple
of days spent with The Beatles. Not long ago it was a Seekers
kick for a few days, and most recently the Kingston Trio of the
Dave Guard era. Let the young and the eternal high-schoolers
worry about what's avant garde or cool. We can have it all.

[moviePig]

I'll have to take your word for it ...over, say, this from Wiki:

"Golden age hip hop (cited as either just the late '80s or the late
80s to early 90s) was the time period where hip-hop lyricism went
through its most drastic transformation – writer William Jelani Cobb
says "in these golden years, a critical mass of mic prodigies were
literally creating themselves and their art form at the same time" and
Allmusic writes, "rhymers like PE's Chuck D, Big Daddy Kane, KRS-One,
and Rakim basically invented the complex wordplay and lyrical kung-fu
of later hip-hop”. The golden age is considered to have ended around
'93–'94, marking the end of rap lyricism's most innovative period."

(I admit I don't know any of those folks.)

Meanwhile, Pachelbel, too, has been around since the '70s -- of the
1600s. Do you think any rap tracks will last as long as, say, Dylan's
stuff, or the Beatles', or the Beach Boys'?

[moviePig]

I'll do exactly that... the very instant that I can see that it *is*
old geezerhood. (E.g., I'm not particularly dismissive of the video
game culture, which I'm convinced has signs at each entrance saying,
"You must be *this* young to play..."

[Jim T.]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 15:11:10 -0700 (PDT), moviePig
<pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:

>On May 20, 4:49 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:40:16 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>> > Probably.  Indeed, Dylan at the outset was a joke to some of us.  Bu
>> > he eventually (pretty quickly, actually) "became" brilliant.  And,
>> > even at the outset, I don't think (anyway) that I'd have been totally
>> > incredulous if shown that destiny for him.  Rap, otoh, strikes me
>> > strongly as having the durability prospects of a mayfly...
>>
>> It's been around since the late 1970s. There goes that argument.
>
>I'll have to take your word for it ...over, say, this from Wiki:
>
> "Golden age hip hop (cited as either just the late '80s or the late
>80s to early 90s) was the time period where hip-hop lyricism went
>through its most drastic transformation – writer William Jelani Cobb
>says "in these golden years, a critical mass of mic prodigies were
>literally creating themselves and their art form at the same time" and
>Allmusic writes, "rhymers like PE's Chuck D, Big Daddy Kane, KRS-One,
>and Rakim basically invented the complex wordplay and lyrical kung-fu
>of later hip-hop”. The golden age is considered to have ended around
>'93–'94, marking the end of rap lyricism's most innovative period."
>
>(I admit I don't know any of those folks.)

To bring this back to movies, you must know at least Public Enemy's
(lead rapper Chuck D) "Fight the Power" since it was prominently
featured in "Do the Right Thing." I don't know much about rap, but I
like that and some other of PE's stuff.

[reilloc]

On 5/20/2013 3:44 PM, moviePig wrote:
> On May 20, 4:25 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:21:52 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>> Then you'd better hold your nose through the coming weekend's
>>> bouquet: FAST AND FURIOUS 6...
>>
>> Let me get this straight: You watch that shit and you bitch about rap?
>
> Well, I would if it were in 3D. Since it's not, I'll wait for DVD to
> see what is apparently a pretty amazing wall-to-wall stunt action
> fest. Meanwhile, I don't mean to "bitch" about rap, but rather about
> its conferred status as art.

Well, it is art. By the classic definition it's art and if there weren't
a classic definition your emotional response would create such
definition on the spot. I'm really kinda surprised that, in the same
breath, you can laud one electronics-studio-dependent medium while
dismissing another, particularly since, in the case of the latter, it
can also be done live and still evoke powerful emotions.

LNC

[calvin]

On May 20, 6:15 pm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:
> On May 20, 5:49 pm, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> > On May 20, 4:53 pm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm not claiming there's anything close to a perfect selection process
> > > where good ultimately triumphs. ...
>
> > Then go with old geezerhood, with all of the good stuff (to you)
> > spread out before you.  I re-listen to the sounds of long ago,
> > sometimes, for example, a series of Dylan albums, or a couple
> > of days spent with The Beatles.  Not long ago it was a Seekers
> > kick for a few days, and most recently the Kingston Trio of the
> > Dave Guard era.  Let the young and the eternal high-schoolers
> > worry about what's avant garde or cool.  We can have it all.
>
> I'll do exactly that... the very instant that I can see that it *is*
> old geezerhood.  (E.g., I'm not particularly dismissive of the video
> game culture, which I'm convinced has signs at each entrance saying,
> "You must be *this* young to play..."

I would like to play 'Joust' again, but only the real thing,
not a computer version. I would also like to go into a
video game arcade and roam around, just to see what
technology has wrought, but can't do that because I
would be thought to be a pedophile or something.

[reilloc]

On 5/20/2013 5:11 PM, moviePig wrote:

>
> Meanwhile, Pachelbel, too, has been around since the '70s -- of the
> 1600s. Do you think any rap tracks will last as long as, say, Dylan's
> stuff, or the Beatles', or the Beach Boys'?

"Last as long" where? It could be that you're moving out of mainstream
culture and don't know it.

LNC

[moviePig]

Wait, you think I'm lauding F&F6? How can I best put this ...No. I
only said I'd see it. And I'd expect to emerge with anecdotes
comprising ridicule. Meanwhile, there's lot's of live entertainment
that can evoke powerful emotions. The Romans knew a few. What I'm
saying is that, in rap, I can't recognize an artist -- at least not as
someone with extraordinary perceptual or performing gifts. (Is rap
popular on karaoke night?)

[calvin]

On May 20, 6:59 pm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:
> ... What I'm
> saying is that, in rap, I can't recognize an artist -- at least not ...

I wouldn't recognize Beyoncé. I'm not kidding and I
don't care. Has Beyoncé even heard of Bruckner?
I seriously doubt it.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 6:11:10 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:

> Meanwhile, Pachelbel, too, has been around since the '70s -- of the
> 1600s. Do you think any rap tracks will last as long as, say, Dylan's
> stuff, or the Beatles', or the Beach Boys'?
>

It started -- according to most literate histories of the genre -- with The Last Poets in the late-1960s who can be heard on the Performance soundtrack. I'll take Tupac over Pachelbel -- and let's face it, Pachelbel's a one-hit wonder -- any day of the week. Interesting guideline you pick there. Let's move the references into reality: Will rap songs outlast The Strawberry Alarm Clock or the Cowsills or Dino, Desi and Billy? Can I slam the Beach Boys up against Homer? It's Apples and Edsels and is mime no longer an art form since it's been regulated to being annoyed by theatre students in the park? Was vaudeville or silent movies not an artform because they didn't last? When was the last time you watched a silent movie or -- as you cited earlier -- listened to John Cage or read recent poetry and can you name 25 favorite jazz tunes? The truth is your own argument is abstract to even yourself, your goalposts are from an imagined culture you're not part of. If you just don't like hiphop or rap, that's one thing. We all have our limitations, based on whatever. The clue here is denying it's vitality in the culture or refusing to see it as an artform and that's insane. In terms of the relationship between the artist and the audience, it may be the most real music still evolving on the planet.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 6:11:10 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:

> I'll have to take your word for it ...over, say, this from Wiki:
>

Someone cited Blondie's The Rapture earlier and that came out in 1980 and it was obviously "influenced" by hiphop. It's been around in various forms for a long time.

[calvin]

On May 20, 7:54 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> If you just don't like hiphop or rap, that's one thing. We all have
> our limitations, based on whatever. The clue here is denying it's
> vitality in the culture or refusing to see it as an artform and that's insane.
> In terms of the relationship between the artist and the audience, it may

> be the most real music still evolving on the planet. ...

The culture is inferior to nearly all previous cultures,
except that of disco. Nothing is inferior to that. Use
your remaining years to submerge yourself in a
crummy culture, when you have more greatness to
choose from than you could ever find the time for;
and keep on pointing out the 'limitations' of others.
You're the fool, and too arrogant even to be pitied.

[nick]

On May 20, 8:46 pm, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> On May 20, 7:54 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > If you just don't like hiphop or rap, that's one thing. We all have
> > our limitations, based on whatever. The clue here is denying it's
> > vitality in the culture or refusing to see it as an artform and that's insane.
> > In terms of the relationship between the artist and the audience, it may
> > be the most real music still evolving on the planet. ...
>
> The culture is inferior to nearly all previous cultures,
> except that of disco.  Nothing is inferior to that.

So sayeth the person who thinks Atlas Shrugged is the greatest novel
ever written.

[nick]

She's a trained professional musician. Maybe she has heard of
Bruckner. Since none of us know her personally, we can't ask her.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 10:09:36 PM UTC-4, nick wrote:

> So sayeth the person who thinks Atlas Shrugged is the greatest novel
> ever written.

[Rimshot.]

[nick]

My memory is fuzzy as to whether my first exposure to rap came from
"Rapture", a couple of Clash tracks off of Sandinista! or "The
Message". Blondie's an odd case because at the time it seemed like
they were co-opting/cashing in on black culture but Chris Stein, it
turns out, was an active part of the early hip hop community.

[Tom]

On May 20, 1:29 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 20, 2013 2:06:15 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>
> > I'm no big fan of jazz or Gregorian chants, but I can recognize them
> > as enjoyed via the odd faculty that lets us enjoy music in the first
> > place.  Rap, otoh, is,,, something else.
>
> What a bunch of old white geezers. First off, anybody that listens to rap really doesn't care -- and this is directed at the thread and not, eg, mPig -- what y'awl think and second, hiphop and rap have created some great sounds and more importantly have struck a nerve way beyond their cultural centers. You sound like a bunch of Polka mavens or easy listening fans in the early days of rock'n'roll or jazz. Oh, wait, that was "black" music too. It's not a black thing, but you still don't get it . . .

Well said. Thanks for this.

Tom

[calvin]

Who is that? Not me. The greatest novel I've ever read
was 'War and Peace'.

[Tom]

On May 20, 2:51 pm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:

> "Yaw'l"?  Y'all cain't be from Dixie..  Meanwhile, if my rejection of
> rap were mere musical hubris, I'd own up to it.  But, e.g., though I
> don't readily get jazz, I can hear virtuosity, skill, and talent in
> the practice of it ... more or less correlating to "expert" verdicts
> thereof (...and sometimes I even enjoy the stuff).  Whereas with rap,
> I harbor a gnawing notion that, rather than through genius, its
> celebrities' stature is gained mostly via a marketing lotto and a
> managed popular consensus of what's/who's cool (...or is it  'dope'?)

>
> - - - - - - - -
>   YOUR taste at work...
>    http://www.moviepig.com

Three words for you, my friend...

Gil Scott Heron.

Tom

[nick]

Yeah, a bunch of old white men arguing about rap music is sad on so
many levels.

[calvin]

Bounced off the rim.

As I told nick, that's not me. But if there's anything in
today's culture to equal the best of the culture of 1957,
when Atlas Shrugged was published, please name it.;

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 10:21:01 PM UTC-4, nick wrote:

> My memory is fuzzy as to whether my first exposure to rap came from
> "Rapture", a couple of Clash tracks off of Sandinista! or "The
> Message". Blondie's an odd case because at the time it seemed like
> they were co-opting/cashing in on black culture but Chris Stein, it
> turns out, was an active part of the early hip hop community.

And most first heard reggae from Eric Clapton's cover of I Shot The Sheriff and some were first exposed to Robert Johnson from The Rolling Stones' cover of Love in Vain. Such is the nature of pop music and -- one could argue -- its saving grace. The question of co-opting or cashing in is always in the mix and is more a distraction than an indictment. If you're smart enough to follow the trail, rewards are at the end of the path.

[Tom]

On May 20, 3:49 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:40:16 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
> > Probably.  Indeed, Dylan at the outset was a joke to some of us.  Bu
> > he eventually (pretty quickly, actually) "became" brilliant.  And,
> > even at the outset, I don't think (anyway) that I'd have been totally
> > incredulous if shown that destiny for him.  Rap, otoh, strikes me
> > strongly as having the durability prospects of a mayfly...
>
> It's been around since the late 1970s. There goes that argument.

I think what most of these guys are doing is confusing rap with hip
hop. Around 1990 or so, I took a weekend writing seminar. Someone
asked about the roots of rap (we were just sittin' around rappin' with
the prof after the first session) and he dug a book out of his bag,
the title of which is long forgotten. He flipped immediately to a
dogeared page and showed us some pics of African villagers and some
black hillbilly jug bands... the connection to them and to guys like
Gil Scott Heron was rap, chanting or rhyming to a beat.

That's one well- heeled mayfly.

Tom

[Tom]

I think that you can trace the origins of rap back many centuries
without breaking a sweat.

Tom

[calvin]

On May 20, 10:28 pm, nick <leftbehindbythetalk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, a bunch of old white men arguing about rap music is sad on so
> many levels.

Your rappers will be old men someday, and how sad
will it be that they won't know enough about the history
of cultures to argue about any of it.

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 10:38:22 PM UTC-4, Tom wrote:

> That's one well-heeled mayfly.
>
Whether the impetus was Gil Scott Heron or The Last Poets isn't important. The fact that precursors exist only satisfies English professors or those obsessed with cultural lineage. It was, as the song says, a long time coming and it won't be a long time gone. Whether some reactionaries want to deny it only increases its import. In fact, denying it only diminishes the deniers.

[moviePig]

On May 20, 7:30 pm, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:

I'd recognize Beyonce -- and probably even a rapper or two. What I
meant to say was that I can't find the footprint of very rare talent
in a rap track.

[Tom]

I mentioned Heron because I think he may be a bit more...
accessible... to old white guys rapping about rap.

And you're absolutely right about the denial.

Tom

[moviePig]

> Three words for you, my friend...
>
> Gil Scott Heron.

Okay, I skimmed his Wiki page, and will likely add to this thread
after I get a chance to do some youTubing.

[trotsky]

You wouldn't recognize Bruckner either. Idiot.


--
Never post something on the internet unless you have a point of
reference. You will look like a moron otherwise.

[trotsky]

On 5/20/13 7:46 PM, calvin wrote:
> On May 20, 7:54 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> If you just don't like hiphop or rap, that's one thing. We all have
>> our limitations, based on whatever. The clue here is denying it's
>> vitality in the culture or refusing to see it as an artform and that's insane.
>> In terms of the relationship between the artist and the audience, it may
>> be the most real music still evolving on the planet. ...
>
> The culture is inferior to nearly all previous cultures,
> except that of disco. Nothing is inferior to that.

Is "Calvin's Picture Book of Inferior Cultures" to be forthcoming?

LOL.

[trotsky]

Hey! calvin has every right to say that the deluded white hypocrite
culture is superior to disco's.

[trotsky]

A case is usually made that Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" is
an early version or precursor to rap.

[trotsky]

He has no clue because it wasn't televised.

[trotsky]

Meanwhile Shawn Carter, aka Jay-Z, is on his way to being richer than
Bill Gates.

[trotsky]

Genres are always a dubious thing. What genre does Kanye fall into?

[trotsky]

On 5/20/13 10:13 PM, moviePig wrote:
> On May 20, 7:30 pm, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
>> On May 20, 6:59 pm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ... What I'm
>>> saying is that, in rap, I can't recognize an artist -- at least not ...
>>
>> I wouldn't recognize Beyoncé. I'm not kidding and I
>> don't care. Has Beyoncé even heard of Bruckner?
>> I seriously doubt it.
>
> I'd recognize Beyonce -- and probably even a rapper or two. What I
> meant to say was that I can't find the footprint of very rare talent
> in a rap track.

Compared to what? The Beach Boys?

[trotsky]

Perhaps this will help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8

[nick]

On May 21, 6:34 am, trotsky <gmsi...@email.com> wrote:
> On 5/20/13 9:21 PM, nick wrote:
>
> > On May 20, 7:56 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, May 20, 2013 6:11:10 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
> >>> I'll have to take your word for it ...over, say, this from Wiki:
>
> >> Someone cited Blondie's The Rapture earlier and that came out in 1980 and it was obviously "influenced" by hiphop. It's been around in various forms for a long time.
>
> > My memory is fuzzy as to whether my first exposure to rap came from
> > "Rapture", a couple of Clash tracks off of Sandinista! or "The
> > Message".  Blondie's an odd case because at the time it seemed like
> > they were co-opting/cashing in on black culture but Chris Stein, it
> > turns out, was an active part of the early hip hop community.
>
> A case is usually made that Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" is
> an early version or precursor to rap.
>

I don't like taking it too far back because then you end up with
things like, "Homer was the first rapper", like saying Shakespeare
invented science fiction when he wrote The Tempest. I'll adopt the
purist approach and say rap, at least as we know it now, developed in
NYC in the seventies, fringing off from funk music in one direction
while disco went in another.

[nick]

But while I got into Robert Johnson explicitly because of white
musicians like the Rolling Stones or Eric Clapton, with rap it was
watching those breakdancing movies that were the rage for a little
while in the early 80s and the first few Run DMC records. By the time
Public Enemy came along a few years later, I realized I was starting
to get too old . . . white musicians haven't done a good job of
glomming on to rap style. It's a good thing the Rolling Stones are so
old because otherwise they'd be trying to do rap music. Jagger has
tried with horrific results.

[trotsky]

You might want to take it up with Rolling Stone, then:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/is-bob-dylan-hip-hops-godfather-his-ties-to-beasties-roots-more-20100330

[wlah...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:51:55 AM UTC-4, nick wrote:

> I don't like taking it too far back because then you end up with
> things like, "Homer was the first rapper", like saying Shakespeare
> invented science fiction when he wrote The Tempest. I'll adopt the
> purist approach and say rap, at least as we know it now, developed in
> NYC in the seventies, fringing off from funk music in one direction
> while disco went in another.

Pretty much agree with all that. It became necessary to look at the life it has had already when someone questions how long it will last.

[nick]

That kind of thing is used as a marketing gimmick too, like when Nigel
Kennedy says "Beethoven was the first punk". All it means is Nigel
Kennedy wants to sell some classical records to people who normally
wouldn't be buying. It diminishes cultural impact when you make
influence too diffuse. It's not fair to Beethoven *or* punk rock.

[reilloc]

On 5/20/2013 5:59 PM, moviePig wrote:
> On May 20, 6:47 pm, reilloc <reil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 5/20/2013 3:44 PM, moviePig wrote:
>>
>>> On May 20, 4:25 pm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 20, 2013 4:21:52 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>>>> Then you'd better hold your nose through the coming weekend's
>>>>> bouquet: FAST AND FURIOUS 6...
>>
>>>> Let me get this straight: You watch that shit and you bitch about rap?
>>
>>> Well, I would if it were in 3D. Since it's not, I'll wait for DVD to
>>> see what is apparently a pretty amazing wall-to-wall stunt action
>>> fest. Meanwhile, I don't mean to "bitch" about rap, but rather about
>>> its conferred status as art.
>>
>> Well, it is art. By the classic definition it's art and if there weren't
>> a classic definition your emotional response would create such
>> definition on the spot. I'm really kinda surprised that, in the same
>> breath, you can laud one electronics-studio-dependent medium while
>> dismissing another, particularly since, in the case of the latter, it
>> can also be done live and still evoke powerful emotions.
>
> Wait, you think I'm lauding F&F6? How can I best put this ...No. I
> only said I'd see it. And I'd expect to emerge with anecdotes
> comprising ridicule. Meanwhile, there's lot's of live entertainment
> that can evoke powerful emotions. The Romans knew a few. What I'm
> saying is that, in rap, I can't recognize an artist -- at least not as
> someone with extraordinary perceptual or performing gifts. (Is rap
> popular on karaoke night?)

I don't intend to quibble but "apparently (a) pretty amazing" is hardly
faint and while I'm not a big rap fan, I've got kids in their 20s with
significant, proven, artistic sensibilities and good taste in other
music forms and whose opinions I respect. Consequently, I've stopped
being amazed when they play certain hip hop artists' work, know the
words and point out nuances I'd previously let my prejudice against the
form obscure.

I submit that probably due to the demands of available time you're
cutting yourself off from something significant. While it might not be
the "rap" you have in mind, listen to this old Beck tune and consider
where he got that shit and what else might be out there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgSPaXgAdzE

LNC

[RichA]

On May 20, 8:16 am, "Irish Mike" <ad7c...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> Watched a little of the music awards last night and have a serious
> question.  How can any person with an I.Q. over 50 really like RAP
> "music"?  And I use the word "music" only in the generic sense.
> Seriously, it is just a bunch of silly, pretentious, frequently vulgar
> non-musical crap.  And the idea that any intelligent, thinking person
> would actually pay hard-earned money to buy it is just stunning.
>
> Although, I guess RAP could be considered a form of musical affirmative
> action.  It provides  people who can't sing or play an instrument a way to
> call themselves "musical artists".
>
> And before the left wing loons begin hysterically screaming racist, let me
> make it clear that I include white RAP "artists" like emiem (or however he
> spells it) Vanilla Ice (who I think is now a carpenter) and others as
> being just as talentless.  I also happen to like the music of some black
> musicians, with the emphasis on actually singing and actually playing
> instruments.
>
> On a brighter note (pun intended) it seems these RAP "artists"
> periodically shoot each other to death to prove their "street creds".
> Mother Nature's natural check and balance.
>
> Irish Mike

Remember when some university released a study that said "Lil' Wayne"
songs were listened to by the lowest-intelligence group of people out
there? Rap is simplistic and appeals to simple minds.

[nick]

It is Li'l Wayne you're talking about. That's like saying cinema is
an idiot art form because of Uwe Boll fans.

[Richard Brooks]

Not everyone can listen to music which has an uilleann pipe in it.

[calvin]

On May 22, 2:44 pm, Richard Brooks <richard.bro...@vickers-

armstrongs.co.uk> wrote:
> Not everyone can listen to music which has an uilleann pipe in it.

I had to look it up, and here are some samples:

http://www.raysloan.com/Uilleann%20and%20Smallpipe%20Sound%20samples.html

[Bastette]

Tom wrote:

> On May 20, 2:51ï¿œpm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:

>> On May 20, 2:29ï¿œpm, wlahe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, May 20, 2013 2:06:15 PM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>
>> > > I'm no big fan of jazz or Gregorian chants, but I can recognize them
>> > > as enjoyed via the odd faculty that lets us enjoy music in the first

>> > > place. ï¿œRap, otoh, is,,, something else.

>>
>> > What a bunch of old white geezers. First off, anybody that listens to rap really doesn't care -- and this is directed at the thread and not, eg, mPig -- what y'awl think and second, hiphop and rap have created some great sounds and more importantly have struck a nerve way beyond their cultural centers. You sound like a bunch of Polka mavens or easy listening fans in the early days of rock'n'roll or jazz. Oh, wait, that was "black" music too. It's not a black thing, but you still don't get it . . .
>>

>> "Yaw'l"? ï¿œY'all cain't be from Dixie.. ï¿œMeanwhile, if my rejection of
>> rap were mere musical hubris, I'd own up to it. ï¿œBut, e.g., though I

>> don't readily get jazz, I can hear virtuosity, skill, and talent in
>> the practice of it ... more or less correlating to "expert" verdicts

>> thereof (...and sometimes I even enjoy the stuff). ï¿œWhereas with rap,

>> I harbor a gnawing notion that, rather than through genius, its
>> celebrities' stature is gained mostly via a marketing lotto and a

>> managed popular consensus of what's/who's cool (...or is it ￜ'dope'?)

>>
>> - - - - - - - -

>> ￜ YOUR taste at work...
>> ￜ ￜhttp://www.moviepig.com

> Three words for you, my friend...

> Gil Scott Heron.

The revolution will not be televised...


Bastette