Avatar observations.
JohnSmith
under the planet.
(shown in the cool 3D computer monitors)
And really, what kind of geological process that would create it, would be
in only one place.
Like oil, it would be produced all over the place. Unless the tree made
it (in which case, blowing it up was not a good idea).
* at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the bulletproof
glass, later, they throw spears through it
(i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use special
carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass, and quickly train
the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right angles to the glass.
Cross bows would have been acceptable. not looking for much here, just a
nod)
* the girl pilot who goes AWOL during the first attack. ok, she gets shot
for that. BUT if she doesn't get shot, she goes to jail. BUT if she
doesn't
go to jail, then at least, don't have her server DINNER TO THE ACTUAL
PRISONERS!!! yeesh.
*what the hell was the plan on the escape??? They are on a PLANET
with an atmopshere THEY CANNOT BREATH!!! Presumably they cannot
eat, poisonous water (hell you can't drink it in mexico, let alone another
planet).
They can live for about what, a day or so after they escape?
There was no plan at all. wtf. This was the worst part of the movie.
*hey, look, there goes a helicopter escaping. should we send out one of
our 50 helicoptors after it. after all, they only have about a 5 minute
head start.
and we do know where they are going (to the outpost with the avatar
machines).
*during the home tree destroying, and the giant attack, the blue monkies
were
pretty much wiped out. burning horses, etc. they were decimated. where
did
all the ones at the end of the movie come from? Not only was that tribe
wiped out,
but all the 20 other tribes were wiped out.
*the gaia spirit, total FAIL. you were about 1 day late with your attack
of
the space rhinos. wtf. they blue monkies were wiped out. to the point of
just a handful standing. home tree is gone. the other 20 tribes wiped out
(at least their army was). THEN the space rhinos show up?
*most predictable movie ever. hmm, i wonder if the avatar will get
stockholm syndromed. hmmm, i wonder if the avatar will marry the monkey
girl.
hmmm, i wonder if the avatar will tame the giant bird. hmm i wonder if the
space-rohirrim will help in the final battle, and the space dwarfs, and the
space elfs.
hmm, i wonder if the avatar will become a real boy (uh i mean space boy) at
the end.
*why the hell did they not fly just a wee bit faster to drop the daisy
cutter, since they
all know the battle is over the minute they drop that. I would have
exceeded the 5mph limit
there. in fact, what the hell. i would have had every single helicopter
fly there at breakneck
speed and fire off those incendiaries at it. they knocked down home tree
with no problem
at all. (in that it took about 60 seconds of firing).
* how does the avatar justify sending almost all of those 2000 blue monkies
to their
death. and keep in mind, this was not 'the human army', it was what, about
200 soldiers.
This was a security detail. I've had bigger business meetings, than that
final
pep talk before the last battle.
Just wait 6 years, til the real army shows up. can you say, nuke from
orbit?
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
hhgos4$jkg$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
> * at the start of the movie, it looked like there was unobtainium
> everywhere under the planet.
> (shown in the cool 3D computer monitors)
> And really, what kind of geological process that would create it,
> would be in only one place.
> Like oil, it would be produced all over the place. Unless the tree
> made it (in which case, blowing it up was not a good idea).
I think it was referred to as "the biggest deposit on the planet"
Further establishing the greed of the mining operation. Instead
of settling for the smaller deposits, they go for the biggest,
despite the natives living there.
> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the
> bulletproof glass, later, they throw spears through it
> (i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use special
> carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass, and
> quickly train the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right
> angles to the glass. Cross bows would have been acceptable. not
> looking for much here, just a nod)
First scene, they were shooting arrows UP at the ships, from a
fixed position the ground. The ships weren't moving.
Second scene, they were firing them at the ships from the flying
mounts, diving towards the ships at high speed, the ships themselves
moving towards the flying mounts. AND it seemed to me, that they
put more strength into pulling back the bow, working on anger and
aggression, as opposed to being intimidated in the first scene?
> * the girl pilot who goes AWOL during the first attack. ok, she gets
> shot for that. BUT if she doesn't get shot, she goes to jail. BUT
> if she doesn't
> go to jail, then at least, don't have her server DINNER TO THE ACTUAL
> PRISONERS!!! yeesh.
You think she was supposed/allowed/ordered to do that?
I thought she either hi-jacked the tray from the "delivery-guy",
or sweet-talked him into letting her take it to the prisoners.
> *what the hell was the plan on the escape??? They are on a PLANET
> with an atmopshere THEY CANNOT BREATH!!! Presumably they cannot
> eat, poisonous water (hell you can't drink it in mexico, let alone
> another planet).
> They can live for about what, a day or so after they escape?
> There was no plan at all. wtf. This was the worst part of the movie.
What makes you think they had such a limited window of survival?
Granted, the odds are against being able to go back to the base after
winning the fight, but the point is they went despite the trouble.
It was the heroic thing to do.
Heroes are always stupid that way. It's what makes them heroes.
> *hey, look, there goes a helicopter escaping. should we send out one
> of our 50 helicoptors after it. after all, they only have about a 5
> minute head start.
> and we do know where they are going (to the outpost with the avatar
> machines).
Except once they made it near the vortex, the instruments would be
unable to track the escaping helicopter. They knew that.
> *during the home tree destroying, and the giant attack, the blue
> monkies were
> pretty much wiped out. burning horses, etc. they were decimated. where
> did
> all the ones at the end of the movie come from? Not only was that
> tribe wiped out,
> but all the 20 other tribes were wiped out.
They were?
I didn't see that.
> *the gaia spirit, total FAIL. you were about 1 day late with your
> attack of
> the space rhinos. wtf. they blue monkies were wiped out. to the
> point of just a handful standing. home tree is gone. the other 20
> tribes wiped out (at least their army was). THEN the space rhinos
> show up?
Classic movie clich�.
The cavalry always arrives just at the most desparate time.
(Also, it might have taken just that long for Dr. Augustine (the
Sigourney Weaver character) to convince the spirits of the ancestors
making up Eywa (as I understood it)).
> *most predictable movie ever. hmm, i wonder if the avatar will get
> stockholm syndromed. hmmm, i wonder if the avatar will marry the
> monkey girl.
> hmmm, i wonder if the avatar will tame the giant bird. hmm i wonder
> if the space-rohirrim will help in the final battle, and the space
> dwarfs, and the space elfs.
> hmm, i wonder if the avatar will become a real boy (uh i mean space
> boy) at the end.
The LotR reference seems a bit week. I like your pinochio reference
though.
As for near-*perfect* allegories, I'd list:
"Dune", and "Dances with Wolves".
Any others?
> *why the hell did they not fly just a wee bit faster to drop the daisy
> cutter, since they
> all know the battle is over the minute they drop that. I would have
> exceeded the 5mph limit
> there. in fact, what the hell. i would have had every single
> helicopter fly there at breakneck
> speed and fire off those incendiaries at it. they knocked down home
> tree with no problem
> at all. (in that it took about 60 seconds of firing).
Flying without instrumentation?
You may have a point, but I guess they still felt superior enough to
not feel like they were in a hurry.
> * how does the avatar justify sending almost all of those 2000 blue
> monkies to their
> death. and keep in mind, this was not 'the human army', it was what,
> about 200 soldiers.
> This was a security detail. I've had bigger business meetings, than
> that final
> pep talk before the last battle.
> Just wait 6 years, til the real army shows up. can you say, nuke from
> orbit?
This wasn't the army. It was just a mining corporation with mercenaries.
Mbruno
> * at the start of the movie, it looked like there was unobtainium everywhere
> under the planet.
> (shown in the cool 3D computer monitors)
> And really, what kind of geological process that would create it, would be
> in only one place.
I thought of that myself. Besides, Pandora is pretty big (almost the
size of Earth). Seen from space, it appears to have at least two large
continents separated by an ocean. The Na'vi population on the other
hand appears to be quite small (after calling on 15 clans, Jake could
gather only 2,000 warriors). It is very implausible that the company
couldn't find a large deposit of unobtainium in some uninhabited
corner of the moon, far away from any Na'vi settlement.
>
> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the bulletproof
> glass, later, they throw spears through it
> (i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use special
> carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass, and quickly train
> the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right angles to the glass.
> Cross bows would have been acceptable. not looking for much here, just a
> nod)
That point was discussed in another ng. The theory was that arrows
shot at point blank and a direct line of sight could penetrate the
glass in the smaller gunships (as seen in the movie), but not the
flagships (whose windows were nonetheless scratched). I don't now if
that is physically plausible or not. Note that Jake brings down
Quaritch's gunship with his machine gun and hand grenades. So it's not
like he didn't have some help from human technology !
BTW, someone also mentioned that machine gun bullets couldn't
penetrate the organic armor of the thanator (the beast Neytiri rides
at the end of the movie), but Quaritch apparently kills it with a
knife. Neytiri also kills an armored viperwolf with a knife. Cameron
could have taken care of those dicrepancies by upgrading the Na'vi
weapons in the film. That wouldn't require any technology beyond what
the Na'vi had, as all upgraded weapons could be organic-based. I
suggest he does that in Avatar 2.
> >
> *what the hell was the plan on the escape??? They are on a PLANET
> with an atmopshere THEY CANNOT BREATH!!! Presumably they cannot
> eat, poisonous water (hell you can't drink it in mexico, let alone another
> planet).
> They can live for about what, a day or so after they escape?
> There was no plan at all. wtf. This was the worst part of the movie.
After the humans departed, Jake solved this problem by transferring
his mind permanently into his avatar's body. Presumably, Norm and the
other humans with avatars could do that too if they eventually chose
to. I feel sorry though for Dr. Max Patel, who had no avatar, and
probably couldn't survive long on Pandora without the company, the
supplies at the company compound, and constant new shipments from
Earth.
>
> *the gaia spirit, total FAIL. you were about 1 day late with your attack
> of
> the space rhinos. wtf. they blue monkies were wiped out. to the point of
> just a handful standing. home tree is gone. the other 20 tribes wiped out
> (at least their army was). THEN the space rhinos show up?
First of all, it is not really a "spirit", but rather a worldwide
organic neural net consisting of bioelectric signals flowing through
the tree roots. Places like the glowing willow trees seen to be
network hubs where data (memories, conscience, etc.) can be downloaded
or uploaded. The "Tree of Souls", which is the largest of the willow
trees, is probably the central hub, like a central biocomputer. There
may other such trees in different parts of the moon.
As far as we can tell, the bio-net is also sentient. It can somehow
communicate with the Pandoran animals, maybe (but I'm not sure) by
attaching its woodsprites to the antenna-like structures that most
animals seen to have on their heads. The Na'vi also "mind-meld" with
the animals by connecting the neuro synaptic conduits that grow from
their cortexes to the animals' antennae, and tap into the bio-net by
physically connecting to the willow tree roots or branches.
My impression is that, although the Na'vi worship the bio-net as their
deity, the bio-net itself doesn't necessarily care that much about
them. It was only when it felt directly threatened, ie. when Quaritch
was about to blow up the "Tree of Souls" that the net responded by
commanding the Pandoran animals to attack the RDA forces.
Interestingly, the bio-net is initially not bothered at all by the
company's mining operations, which necessarily must have caused some
degree of deforestation. It doesn't care either when one of its minor
hubs (the "Tree of Voices") is destroyed. So, it's not like it
protects all life at all costs. Neytiri even mentions to Jake that the
net "doesn't take sides".
BTW, in the Avatar game, humans are somewhat smarter. Instead of
trying to blow up the willow tree, they try to hack into it and
control it using specially designed neuro-emitters. By doing so, they
can gain control of Pandora's ecology and defeat the Na'vi.
>
> * how does the avatar justify sending almost all of those 2000 blue monkies
> to their
> death. and keep in mind, this was not 'the human army', it was what, about
> 200 soldiers.
> This was a security detail. I've had bigger business meetings, than that
> final
> pep talk before the last battle.
> Just wait 6 years, til the real army shows up. can you say, nuke from
> orbit?
There is no doubt that, with the proper resources, 22nd-century humans
could wipe out the Pandorans. In fact, even with the limited and
somewhat obsolete resources they had , they managed to defeat the
Na'vi army. If it were not for the "Deus ex machina" intervention of
the bio-net, they would have won the battle.
As far as I can tell though, the point Cameron was trying to make is
that, although Pandora looks deceptively primitive, its ecology is
actually highly evolved and in fact potentially controlled by an
"overmind" (the bio-net) with processing capability several orders of
magnitude higher than a human brain or artificial computers. Pandoran
animals are also bigger, faster, stronger and more resilient
(difficult to kill) than anything alive the humans knew on Earth. A
coordinated attack by symbiotic Pandoran life forms could therefore
conceivably be a match to limited 22nd-century mechanized warfare.
Still, as I said, Cameron could have upgraded the Na'vi with organic-
based weapons (think "Starship Troopers" for example and the plasma
beam bugs, etc. ).
rochrist
> * at the start of the movie, it looked like there was unobtainium
> everywhere
> under the planet.
> (shown in the cool 3D computer monitors)
> And really, what kind of geological process that would create it, would be
> in only one place.
> Like oil, it would be produced all over the place. Unless the tree made
> it (in which case, blowing it up was not a good idea).
>
> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the bulletproof
> glass, later, they throw spears through it
> (i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use special
> carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass, and quickly
> train
> the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right angles to the glass.
> Cross bows would have been acceptable. not looking for much here, just a
> nod)
>
> * the girl pilot who goes AWOL during the first attack. ok, she gets shot
> for that. BUT if she doesn't get shot, she goes to jail. BUT if she
> doesn't
> go to jail, then at least, don't have her server DINNER TO THE ACTUAL
> PRISONERS!!! yeesh.
>
Um, this wasn't he military you realize? They were private contractors.
She might get fired.....
> *what the hell was the plan on the escape??? They are on a PLANET
> with an atmopshere THEY CANNOT BREATH!!! Presumably they cannot
> eat, poisonous water (hell you can't drink it in mexico, let alone
> another planet).
> They can live for about what, a day or so after they escape?
> There was no plan at all. wtf. This was the worst part of the movie.
What? The plan was what it was, go take their portable link base into
the mountains where it couldn't be found. Presumably it had supplies
since they'd been using it for extended forays.
>
> *hey, look, there goes a helicopter escaping. should we send out one of
> our 50 helicoptors after it. after all, they only have about a 5 minute
> head start.
> and we do know where they are going (to the outpost with the avatar
> machines).
>
> *during the home tree destroying, and the giant attack, the blue monkies
> were
> pretty much wiped out. burning horses, etc. they were decimated.
> where did
> all the ones at the end of the movie come from? Not only was that tribe
> wiped out,
> but all the 20 other tribes were wiped out.
>
> *the gaia spirit, total FAIL. you were about 1 day late with your
> attack of
> the space rhinos. wtf. they blue monkies were wiped out. to the point of
> just a handful standing. home tree is gone. the other 20 tribes wiped out
> (at least their army was). THEN the space rhinos show up?
Ok, I see. You're an idiot.
TBerk
> Ok, I see. You're an idiot.
>
>
What you said. The guy's rants are well intentioned, if what he wants
is to piss off folks who actually saw the film that is.
berk
RichA
> This was a security detail. I've had bigger business meetings, than that
> final
> pep talk before the last battle.
> Just wait 6 years, til the real army shows up. can you say, nuke from
> orbit?
That's actually a brilliant idea since nuking is clean when done as
airbursts. Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be entered just a few days
after the blasts with no problems.
JohnSmith
"Thomas Hejl Pilgaard" <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> wrote in message
news:0017aa70$0$1252$c3e...@news.astraweb.com......
>> *what the hell was the plan on the escape??? They are on a PLANET
>> with an atmopshere THEY CANNOT BREATH!!! Presumably they cannot
>> eat, poisonous water (hell you can't drink it in mexico, let alone
>> another planet).
>> They can live for about what, a day or so after they escape?
>> There was no plan at all. wtf. This was the worst part of the movie.
>
> What makes you think they had such a limited window of survival?
> Granted, the odds are against being able to go back to the base after
> winning the fight, but the point is they went despite the trouble.
> It was the heroic thing to do.
> Heroes are always stupid that way. It's what makes them heroes.
because it is a planet on which they cannot breath, drink, or eat.
And all the animals will kill them. The best case scenario is that
they have sci-fi air re-oxygen-ers, and 100% efficient water purifiers,
and that they can survive long enough to starve to death.
even the avatar would have died that first night, if not for the
intervention of the aliens. I see no reason to think the humans
would fare any better.
JohnSmith
"rochrist" <roch...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1F5%m.8529$0U1....@newsfe16.iad...
Then what? How much food is there, especially after they had been
using for extended forays? how much oxygen and water is there?
I assure you, after 3 months, they will be second guessing their decision to
follow that plan.
And, the point is, that it was a plot hole and it had to be covered by
making it certain that the other characters would die. There really was
no other option for the helicoptor pilot.
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
hhle2d$56v$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
> "Thomas Hejl Pilgaard" <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> wrote in message
> news:0017aa70$0$1252$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>> JohnSmith <som...@microsoft.com> declared in:
>> hhgos4$jkg$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
> ...
>>> *what the hell was the plan on the escape??? They are on a PLANET
>>> with an atmopshere THEY CANNOT BREATH!!! Presumably they cannot
>>> eat, poisonous water (hell you can't drink it in mexico, let alone
>>> another planet).
>>> They can live for about what, a day or so after they escape?
>>> There was no plan at all. wtf. This was the worst part of the
>>> movie.
>>
>> It was the heroic thing to do.
>> Heroes are always stupid that way. It's what makes them heroes.
And having just seen the movie again, they didn't have a whole lot
of time to think about it. From the time they got sprung from jail,
until they fired up the helicopter.
It was a classic case of the hero(s) having decided to do the right
thing, consequences be damned.
I find it mildly interesting that you cannot identify with that. ;)
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
hhlebp$5fk$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
> "rochrist" <roch...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:1F5%m.8529$0U1....@newsfe16.iad...
>
>> What? The plan was what it was, go take their portable link base
>> into the mountains where it couldn't be found. Presumably it had
>> supplies since they'd been using it for extended forays.
>
> Then what? How much food is there, especially after they had been
> using for extended forays? how much oxygen and water is there?
> I assure you, after 3 months, they will be second guessing their
> decision to follow that plan.
You've heard the expression, "We'll cross that bridge when we get to
it", yes?
> And, the point is, that it was a plot hole and it had to be covered by
> making it certain that the other characters would die. There really
> was no other option for the helicoptor pilot.
She did say, without a lot of regret or even seriousness:
"And here I was hoping for a strategic plan that didn't involve
martyrdom" - or something very much like those words.
Again, you're operating under the assumption that people are
NEVER willing to give up their life fighting for something
they believe in...
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
55dfd024-ca80-4274...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com :
> On 30 dez, 21:48, "JohnSmith" <some...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> * at the start of the movie, it looked like there was unobtainium
>> everywhere under the planet.
>> (shown in the cool 3D computer monitors)
>> And really, what kind of geological process that would create it,
>> would be in only one place.
>
> I thought of that myself. Besides, Pandora is pretty big (almost the
> size of Earth).
I don't think so. For two reasons:
1. The low gravity indicates a celestial body of small mass.
2. It's not even a planet. It's the moon of a blue gas planet.
Still, it's probably large enough that there are other places they
could mine, but they're greedy, and this huge deposit is in the
immediate vicinity of their base of operations.
Very convenient.
> Seen from space, it appears to have at least two large
> continents separated by an ocean. The Na'vi population on the other
> hand appears to be quite small (after calling on 15 clans, Jake could
> gather only 2,000 warriors).
That was in the short time it took the company to react.
As Colonel Quaritch states in his briefing before they attack:
"In a week, that number could reach 20.000".
So it is apparantly known that the Na'vi population holds that many
individuals within an area that can be covered in 3-4 days.
>> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the
>> bulletproof glass, later, they throw spears through it
>> (i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use special
>> carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass, and
>> quickly train the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right
>> angles to the glass. Cross bows would have been acceptable. not
>> looking for much here, just a nod)
>
> That point was discussed in another ng. The theory was that arrows
> shot at point blank and a direct line of sight could penetrate the
> glass in the smaller gunships (as seen in the movie), but not the
> flagships (whose windows were nonetheless scratched). I don't now if
> that is physically plausible or not. Note that Jake brings down
> Quaritch's gunship with his machine gun and hand grenades. So it's not
> like he didn't have some help from human technology !
Again, there was a BIG difference in the way the arrows were fired in
the two scenes. One was from the ground UP at the ships, the other was
from flying mounts diving down at the ships. The increased speed made
the impact much more powerful.
Add to that the point you made about the angle of the arrows, and I
think it's a silly thing to bring up.
> BTW, someone also mentioned that machine gun bullets couldn't
> penetrate the organic armor of the thanator (the beast Neytiri rides
> at the end of the movie), but Quaritch apparently kills it with a
> knife.
Where did we learn that machine gun bullets can't penetrate the armor
of the thanator? When Jake first encounters the Pandoran wildlife, it
is the Titanotherus (hammerhead rhino) that he is told his machine gun
fire wouldn't penetrate. All he is told about the Thanator, is that
between the two options of running or not running, the right option is
definately to run.
Grace could have any number of reasons to suggest running, of which
a bullet resistant armor is only an unspoken possibility. Other reasons
include irrational fear, Jake only listing two options for her to
choose from, none of which include opening fire, and her long time with
the Na'vi, which might have caused some of the respect for all life to
rub off on her. She might not want to harm the beast, or she might no
longer consider it an option.
Either way, we see the Na'vi kill by well-placed strikes with their
knives on several occasions. The persistent colonel may have lucked
out and struck at the right location.
Also, it was hardly just "a knife". It was a huge blade with the
power of the exoskeleton's pneumatic arms behind it.
> Neytiri also kills an armored viperwolf with a knife. Cameron
> could have taken care of those dicrepancies by upgrading the Na'vi
> weapons in the film. That wouldn't require any technology beyond what
> the Na'vi had, as all upgraded weapons could be organic-based. I
> suggest he does that in Avatar 2.
No need. They are hunters with the knowledge of where to strike the
beasts, and how to avoid them if confrontation is undesireable (Neytiri
tells Jake he makes too much noise when he moves, as they first meet).
>> Just wait 6 years, til the real army shows up. can you say, nuke from
>> orbit?
>
> There is no doubt that, with the proper resources, 22nd-century humans
> could wipe out the Pandorans. In fact, even with the limited and
> somewhat obsolete resources they had , they managed to defeat the
> Na'vi army. If it were not for the "Deus ex machina" intervention of
> the bio-net, they would have won the battle.
However, why would the army get involved in the first place?
Remember, this is just a mining corporation with hired ex-marines and
mercenaries. The manager even admits that killing the natives will
give them a PR nightmare back home.
The only thing driving them to do it anyway, is given as the desire
of the share holders. - After this defeat, I don't see the share holders
deciding to risk further losses by sending a second, more costly,
expedition. Especially if word got out, and they had to fight bad
publicity and public (as well as perhaps legal) scrutiny while
preparing it...
Russell Watson
wrote:
>JohnSmith wrote:
>> * at the start of the movie, it looked like there was unobtainium
>> everywhere
>> under the planet.
>> (shown in the cool 3D computer monitors)
>> And really, what kind of geological process that would create it, would be
>> in only one place.
>> Like oil, it would be produced all over the place. Unless the tree made
>> it (in which case, blowing it up was not a good idea).
>>
>> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the bulletproof
>> glass, later, they throw spears through it
>> (i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use special
>> carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass, and quickly
>> train
>> the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right angles to the glass.
>> Cross bows would have been acceptable. not looking for much here, just a
>> nod)
>>
>> * the girl pilot who goes AWOL during the first attack. ok, she gets shot
>> for that. BUT if she doesn't get shot, she goes to jail. BUT if she
>> doesn't
>> go to jail, then at least, don't have her server DINNER TO THE ACTUAL
>> PRISONERS!!! yeesh.
>>
>
>Um, this wasn't he military you realize? They were private contractors.
>She might get fired.....
>
Ah, yes...the Blackwater metaphor: hire ex-military mercs to do what
the UCMJ won't allow the actual troops to do w/out danger of
prosecution.
JohnSmith
>>JohnSmith wrote:
....
they show bullets hitting the glass of the helicopter. it is bulletproof.
so, throwing a stick threw it aint gonna work. It is all about muzzle
velocity.
A depleted uranium round, travelling at about 5000 feet per second was
stopped
by the glass. A bamboo spear, even a "special" carbon fibre bamboo spear,
thrown
by a 10 foot tall person, is not gonna penetrate it.
An arrow from a bow is gonna go at about 300 feet per second.
A throw is gonna go at about 150 feet per second. Sure, go ahead and double
those numbers cause they are giant carbon fibre aliens on space-dinos, but
that is still a factor of ten off of the bullets, and the bullets were
stopped.
But that is really beside the point that i was making, it is not so bad that
there is a spear that can penetrate the glass, it is that the movie goes out
of the way to show very clearly how the helicoptors were invulnerable (for
fake
dramatic purpose). The arrows bounce off them, the arrows can't even
flatten the
tires fo the dump truck. The movie pounds us over the head on how useless
and
powerless the monkeys are, then TADAA they start wiping out the attack
force.
JohnSmith
>>JohnSmith wrote:
re: the escape.
I am actually very surprised that there was not a resounding
agreement with that point.
1) first of all, there was no real reason to break out the scientists.
I can see the female pilot not wanting to slaughter the aliens, but she
never really had contact with them. To knowlingly sacrifice yourself to
certain death for them just seemed completely out of nowhere.
- it is not like the scientists themselves were in danger, they'd be shipped
back to earth, and probably become heros for what they did. They were not
gonna be executed (or were they? did i miss that part?).
I can understand the scientists doing it, as they have lived with the aliens
for months.
2) it is a planet where they cannot drink, eat, or breath!!!
This is like neil armstrong on the moon, busting out of the lunar landing
and screaming, IM OUTTA HERE, and running over the horizon. wtf?
This is like some people in a undersea lab at the bottom of the ocean, under
a couple miles of water, sneaking out of it to swim away and go to the
fishes.
This is like being in an airplane being hijacked, and jumping out the door
with
no parachute - except there are giant space monsters that will eat them
before
the crash into the earth.
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
hht6id$1mk$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
>>> JohnSmith wrote:
> ....
>
> they show bullets hitting the glass of the helicopter. it is
> bulletproof.
We see marks on the windows.
Whether these are marks or holes, I can't tell for sure.
> so, throwing a stick threw it aint gonna work. It is all about
> muzzle velocity.
> A depleted uranium round, travelling at about 5000 feet per
> second was stopped by the glass. A bamboo spear, even a
> "special" carbon fibre bamboo spear, thrown
> by a 10 foot tall person, is not gonna penetrate it.
> An arrow from a bow is gonna go at about 300 feet per second.
> A throw is gonna go at about 150 feet per second. Sure, go ahead and
> double those numbers cause they are giant carbon fibre aliens on
> space-dinos, but that is still a factor of ten off of the bullets,
> and the bullets were stopped.
Were they?
> But that is really beside the point that i was making, it is not so
> bad that there is a spear that can penetrate the glass, it is that
> the movie goes out of the way to show very clearly how the
> helicoptors were invulnerable (for fake dramatic purpose).
> The arrows bounce off them,
Sure - when the arrows are shot UP at the helicopters, severely
crippling their speed, especially when adding the downdraft from
the helicopters rotorblades and the somewhat intimidated state
the Na'vi are in.
> the arrows can't even
> flatten the tires fo the dump truck.
You sure they penetrated deep enough? Those were some big tires.
Also, are we sure there is air in those tires at all?
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
hht6vd$2bd$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
>>> JohnSmith wrote:
>
> re: the escape.
>
> I am actually very surprised that there was not a resounding
> agreement with that point.
>
> 1) first of all, there was no real reason to break out the scientists.
> I can see the female pilot not wanting to slaughter the aliens, but
> she never really had contact with them. To knowlingly sacrifice
> yourself to certain death for them just seemed completely out of
> nowhere. - it is not like the scientists themselves were in danger,
> they'd be shipped back to earth, and probably become heros for what
> they did. They were not gonna be executed (or were they? did i miss
> that part?). I can understand the scientists doing it, as they have lived
> with the
> aliens for months.
Guess she realized what the hell it was she was ordered to do.
The REAL ridiculous point is that so few (none) of the others did that.
> 2) it is a planet where they cannot drink, eat, or breath!!!
> This is like neil armstrong on the moon, busting out of the lunar
> landing and screaming, IM OUTTA HERE, and running over the horizon. wtf?
Uhm... No. It's not.
> This is like some people in a undersea lab at the bottom of the
> ocean, under a couple miles of water, sneaking out of it to swim away
> and go to the fishes.
Uhm... No. It's not.
> This is like being in an airplane being hijacked, and jumping out the
> door with no parachute - except there are giant space monsters that
> will eat them before the crash into the earth.
Hat-trick.
Wolfgang Draxinger
> *most predictable movie ever. hmm, i wonder if the avatar will get
> stockholm syndromed. hmmm, i wonder if the avatar will marry the monkey
> girl.
> hmmm, i wonder if the avatar will tame the giant bird. hmm i wonder if
> the space-rohirrim will help in the final battle, and the space dwarfs,
> and the space elfs.
> hmm, i wonder if the avatar will become a real boy (uh i mean space boy)
> at the end.
In a movie like Avatar it's not about "will it happen", but "how will it
happen and which events eventually lead to it". The literary technique
behind it is called "foreshadowing".
> *why the hell did they not fly just a wee bit faster to drop the daisy
> cutter, since they
> all know the battle is over the minute they drop that. I would have
> exceeded the 5mph limit
> there. in fact, what the hell. i would have had every single helicopter
> fly there at breakneck
> speed and fire off those incendiaries at it. they knocked down home tree
> with no problem
> at all. (in that it took about 60 seconds of firing).
If their instruments went AWOL in the vortex, it's just logical that also
automated flight assistance will be inflicted. And you definitely don't want
to navigate such an environment, floating rocks, limited visibility,
unexpected behaviour of your vessel due to effects from the flux, at max
speed.
> * how does the avatar justify sending almost all of those 2000 blue
> monkies to their
> death. and keep in mind, this was not 'the human army', it was what,
> about 200 soldiers.
> This was a security detail. I've had bigger business meetings, than that
> final
> pep talk before the last battle.
> Just wait 6 years, til the real army shows up. can you say, nuke from
> orbit?
Shiftig the odds? Compensate lack of firepower by shear outnumbering. You
can shoot only one target at a time.
Wolfgang
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
00520bc1$0$20121$c3e...@news.astraweb.com :
> Mbruno <br...@ele.ita.br> declared in:
> 55dfd024-ca80-4274...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com :
>
>> On 30 dez, 21:48, "JohnSmith" <some...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the
>>> bulletproof glass, later, they throw spears through it
Actually, two erroneous assumptions here:
1. It's NOT bulltproof. Colonel Quaritch fires straight through it
as the heroes steal a helicopter after being sprung by the pilot.
Not to mention that the glass gets repeatedly scratched by arrows,
even at the first encounter at the Home Tree.
2. Spears?! Where? They only ever shoot arrows. But what looks like
an arrow in the hands of a Na'vi, will naturally HAVE to look like
a spear when penetrating the glass of a helicopter, or the chest of
a marine, due to the Na'vi being easily twice the size of humans.
>>> (i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use
>>> special carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass,
>>> and quickly train the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right
>>> angles to the glass. Cross bows would have been acceptable. not
>>> looking for much here, just a nod)
No need. You just have to watch the movie.
It's not bulletproof glass, and the arrows are huge in human standards,
and fired at MUCH greater speeds in the instances that they break the
glass.
JohnSmith
> Thomas Hejl Pilgaard <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> declared in:
> 00520bc1$0$20121$c3e...@news.astraweb.com :
>> Mbruno <br...@ele.ita.br> declared in:
>> 55dfd024-ca80-4274...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com :
>>
>>> On 30 dez, 21:48, "JohnSmith" <some...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the
>>>> bulletproof glass, later, they throw spears through it
>
> Actually, two erroneous assumptions here:
>
> 1. It's NOT bulltproof. Colonel Quaritch fires straight through it
> as the heroes steal a helicopter after being sprung by the pilot.
that is the scene i was thinking of. i though the bullets were stopped
by the glass for the pilot.
but come one, if you can travel to other star systems, and you are
in armed conflict with the blue monkies for many years, why the hell
would you build a helicoptor with weak glass windows???
one would think they would use technology that they've had for several
hundred years. That's about as dumb as the robots defending zion
in the matrix. lol.
> Not to mention that the glass gets repeatedly scratched by arrows,
> even at the first encounter at the Home Tree.
>
> 2. Spears?! Where? They only ever shoot arrows. But what looks like
> an arrow in the hands of a Na'vi, will naturally HAVE to look like
> a spear when penetrating the glass of a helicopter, or the chest of
> a marine, due to the Na'vi being easily twice the size of humans.
>
>>>> (i would have accepted a brief 'upgrade' scene where they use
>>>> special carbon fibre spears that can penetrate bullet proof glass,
>>>> and quickly train the blue monkeys on how to fire the spear at right
>>>> angles to the glass. Cross bows would have been acceptable. not
>>>> looking for much here, just a nod)
>
> No need. You just have to watch the movie.
> It's not bulletproof glass, and the arrows are huge in human standards,
> and fired at MUCH greater speeds in the instances that they break the
> glass.
did you see the muzzle velocity post. bullets travel at least 10 times
faster than you can shoot an arrow.
Invid Fan
<som...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> "Thomas Hejl Pilgaard" <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> wrote in message
> news:018cb763$0$12666$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> > Thomas Hejl Pilgaard <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> declared in:
> > 00520bc1$0$20121$c3e...@news.astraweb.com :
> >> Mbruno <br...@ele.ita.br> declared in:
> >> 55dfd024-ca80-4274...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com :
> >>
> >>> On 30 dez, 21:48, "JohnSmith" <some...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> * at beginning, the aliens dink their primitive weapons off the
> >>>> bulletproof glass, later, they throw spears through it
> >
> > Actually, two erroneous assumptions here:
> >
> > 1. It's NOT bulltproof. Colonel Quaritch fires straight through it
> > as the heroes steal a helicopter after being sprung by the pilot.
>
> that is the scene i was thinking of. i though the bullets were stopped
> by the glass for the pilot.
>
> but come one, if you can travel to other star systems, and you are
> in armed conflict with the blue monkies for many years, why the hell
> would you build a helicoptor with weak glass windows???
> one would think they would use technology that they've had for several
> hundred years. That's about as dumb as the robots defending zion
> in the matrix. lol.
>
Well, wouldn't you design guns powerful enough to go through someone
else's bullet proof glass? At some point they may have found they'd
maxed the strength of see through material, so just went back to
thinner stuff to save weight as it would give just as much protection.
--
Chris Mack "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan' - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
hia66j$k6l$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
> "Thomas Hejl Pilgaard" <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> wrote in message
> news:018cb763$0$12666$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
>> as the heroes steal a helicopter after being sprung by the pilot.
>
> that is the scene i was thinking of. i though the bullets were
> stopped by the glass for the pilot.
Nope. There are bulletholes in the glass in that scene.
> but come one, if you can travel to other star systems, and you are
> in armed conflict with the blue monkies for many years, why the hell
> would you build a helicoptor with weak glass windows???
What, you mean that the constant hints about the humans ridiculing
the technology of the Na'vi, constantly underestimating their combat
abilities and constantly assuming superiority went completely over
your head?
They didn't see a need for bulletproof glass.
And they didn't build the helicopters for all we know. It's a mining
corporation. They probably just bought a model, and bulletproof glass
wasn't on their list of requirements for the model, since... Well...
The natives didn't have BULLETS, perhaps?!
>> It's not bulletproof glass, and the arrows are huge in human
>> standards, and fired at MUCH greater speeds in the instances that
>> they break the glass.
>
> did you see the muzzle velocity post. bullets travel at least 10 times
> faster than you can shoot an arrow.
Yes.
Your point?
As I have just pointed out, the bullets DID go through the glass.
Bullet speed would be a point if they did not go through the glass,
but they did.
JohnSmith
> JohnSmith <som...@microsoft.com> declared in:
> hia66j$k6l$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
>> "Thomas Hejl Pilgaard" <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> wrote in message
>> news:018cb763$0$12666$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>>
>>> 1. It's NOT bulltproof. Colonel Quaritch fires straight through it
>>> as the heroes steal a helicopter after being sprung by the pilot.
>>
>> that is the scene i was thinking of. i though the bullets were
>> stopped by the glass for the pilot.
>
> Nope. There are bulletholes in the glass in that scene.
>
>> but come one, if you can travel to other star systems, and you are
>> in armed conflict with the blue monkies for many years, why the hell
>> would you build a helicoptor with weak glass windows???
>
> What, you mean that the constant hints about the humans ridiculing
> the technology of the Na'vi, constantly underestimating their combat
> abilities and constantly assuming superiority went completely over
> your head?
yeah, right. so, in all the years not one navi ever put an arrow
through a window?????
The dump truck came back with about 100 arrows in it. So not
one of them ever hit a window. yeah, that makes sense.
> They didn't see a need for bulletproof glass.
> And they didn't build the helicopters for all we know. It's a mining
> corporation. They probably just bought a model, and bulletproof glass
> wasn't on their list of requirements for the model, since... Well...
> The natives didn't have BULLETS, perhaps?!
well, the why the hell didn't they get the ARROW proof windows??
Thomas Hejl Pilgaard
hib0m1$q8b$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
> "Thomas Hejl Pilgaard" <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> wrote in message
> news:018cf209$0$14176$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
>> JohnSmith <som...@microsoft.com> declared in:
>> hia66j$k6l$1...@speranza.aioe.org :
>>
>>> "Thomas Hejl Pilgaard" <t.pil...@adslhome.dk.dk> wrote in message
>>> news:018cb763$0$12666$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>>>
>>>> 1. It's NOT bulltproof. Colonel Quaritch fires straight through it
>>>> as the heroes steal a helicopter after being sprung by the pilot.
>>>
>>> that is the scene i was thinking of. i though the bullets were
>>> stopped by the glass for the pilot.
>>
>> Nope. There are bulletholes in the glass in that scene.
>>
>>> but come one, if you can travel to other star systems, and you are
>>> in armed conflict with the blue monkies for many years, why the hell
>>> would you build a helicoptor with weak glass windows???
>>
>> What, you mean that the constant hints about the humans ridiculing
>> the technology of the Na'vi, constantly underestimating their combat
>> abilities and constantly assuming superiority went completely over
>> your head?
>
> yeah, right. so, in all the years not one navi ever put an arrow
> through a window?????
As far as we know, the Na'vi had never even seen the helicopters
until the confrontation at the Home Tree.
> The dump truck came back with about 100 arrows in it.
7.
> So not one of them ever hit a window. yeah, that makes sense.
Once again, the arrows would have been fired from the ground,
which we saw at the Home Tree confrontation meant little to no
impact on the glass.
And there is still the superior arrogance of the humans.
>> They didn't see a need for bulletproof glass.
>> And they didn't build the helicopters for all we know. It's a mining
>> corporation. They probably just bought a model, and bulletproof glass
>> wasn't on their list of requirements for the model, since... Well...
>> The natives didn't have BULLETS, perhaps?!
>
> well, the why the hell didn't they get the ARROW proof windows??
Probably because it's a 6 year trip to the star system.
And again, arrogance, as well as the negligible effect arrows appeared
to have on the glass, until fired from a flying mount diving straight
down at the helicopter.
Human beings do these things, you know.
When the effect is apparantly negligible, why bother?