From DCW - Full text of Amp/Elec proposal as submitted.
Michael E. New
Mike New
me...@bga.com
Full text of DCI rules change proposal
Editor's note: The following is the full text of the rule change
proposals to allow electronics and amplification into Drum Corps
International competitions. The DCI Board will vote on the matter over
the last weekend of January. Stay tuned to this website for updates.
An Annual Exercise
"The 2002 Version --- Effort #12 (I do believe)
Presented by George Hopkins
The Presentation for Proposals Allowing the use of Electronic
Instruments and Amplification within the Marching Music Idiom Fondly
called,
"Drum and Bugle Corps"
Rule Change #1 – Beginning with the summer of 2003, the
instruments knows as "front percussion," or "the pit," will be able to
be amplified with the use of microphones, speakers, mixer boards and
all other necessary electronic equipment. The amplification of the
human voice would also be allowed.
A marching member of the corps must do the mixing of the different
inputs within the confines of the current field and. Coaching is
acceptable.
Battery Percussion, and wind instruments may not be amplified.
Intentional amplification of battery or wind instruments will be
awarded a 5-point penalty at the digression of the content
coordinator. If none is available, the chief judge may grant the
penalty.
Rule Change #2 – Beginning with the summer of 2003, electronic
instruments can be utilized in any performance sanctioned by Drum
Corps International. These instruments cannot include any wind
instrument currently considered illegal within the activities if DCI.
What can be used would include, but not be limited to electronic
keyboards and electronic drum machines. The intention of the rule is
to allow for the inclusion of those instruments within the percussion
field that have risen with the growth of electronic music. Guitars
would not be allowed.
All instruments would have to be played in real time –
Translation; one stroke equals one response. (NO TAPED Sequencing.)
Sampling would be allowed.
Rationale and Discussion
The Conservative Approach
First of all, the intention of these two proposals is to allow for the
corps of DCI, those who wish to, to utilize the basics of
amplification and electronic instruments. Although the author would
favor a " wide-open" approach to diversity, for the sake of the
masses, the strong suggestion is that we move forward with our feet
firmly on the ground.
If, after some time with the basics, people begin to see the
possibility for quality performance, then perhaps these very proposals
will be revisited.
These proposals have passed the instructors’ caucuses year after
year, and in fact, even within the management centered Rules Congress
Vote, there is acceptance.
The Creative Logic
There is a school of thought that says true genius arrives when we
confine the creator, forcing rules and limitations upon the product.
Only in this way, say some, can we see who indeed is truly a master.
Although a fine philosophy, one might point to the world of drum corps
and say, "alas, I can see we have very few geniuses devoting their
skills to the world of marching music".
I say this as a quasi-creator, who has been a part of a few marching
music presentations.
I have tried to tell stories without words, I have worked to balance
acoustic sounds that are not meant to be balanced, and yes I have
lived a life without the inclusion of percussion accessories. I have
pretended to hear the Latin Percussion on the front sideline, I have
watched in admiration as keyboard players perfect the art of overhead
slams, I have prayed in vain for the sound of a saxophone in a grand
jazz ballad, and I have wished to be able to direct the audience to
the intention of a magnificent idea.
What am I hoping to achieve with this change?
I would like to make it possible within the activity, for some new
developments. Here listed are a few, granted my thoughts alone. Indeed
giving credit to the minds of the drum corps designers, albeit not
geniuses J , there is much, much more that is possible.
I would like to someday see and/or hear:
Keyboard players who attack the instrument at all times with the grace
and sophistication anticipated my instrument and mallet designers.
The sound of a triangle, wind chimes, or woodblock, at times other
than those where the winds are forced to play at pppppp.
A show about America, where the words and quotes of great men and
women are included within the production. Combined with the great
sounds of brass and percussion, the overriding effect is magnificent.
I would like to hear a show about water, and be able to hear the crash
of the waves interspersed with music.
I would love to hear the tremendous contribution available from a
conga drum.
Perhaps someday we might enjoy the sound of steel drums, and all
ethnic percussion, instruments that today are lost in the volume of
the acoustical performance, and the big open arena.
And on and on and on. Feel free to add – many creators within
the activity are looking for the opportunity to do more than I can
ever describe or envision.
Fiscal Responsibility
The expenditures a corps will make for amplification and electronic
percussion will vary. One should plan $5000 - $10,000 to get into the
game, and as the comfort level increases, add on equipment would be a
possibility.
The cost is related to the acquisition of capital items and should be
considered as an expense over 3-5 years based on depreciation
schedules. Does this make the initial outlay any easier? Well, that
depends on whether one was to use cash or finance the price tag.
Either way, there is a cost, but it is not extreme. The Cadets for
example, spend, $35,000 every three to four years to replace uniforms
(In the old days, every 10-15 years).
Remember now, the use of these technologies is not mandatory. Good is
god and bad is bad. All one has to do is witness a few band shows to
see this truth in action.
There is also the clear opportunity to share the cost with area bands.
Joint purchasing, rental, bartering, etc … It is all possible;
far more possible than some of the expenditures we make today -- like
filling four buses full of fuel.
Competitive Balance
I could answer with the reality-based response -- "No Worse Than
Today"
The Cavaliers, BD. SVC, and the Cadets hold to the top positions. The
Madison Scouts and Phantom although perhaps slipping a bit in
occasional years competitively remain as standard bearers in the
activity, the Crossmen, the Blucoats and the Colts, continue to hold
top 12 positions in most years and; overall, the balance of power is
remarkably the same. There are reasons for this -- indeed in drum
corps, we are not built for parity, but alas, this is a conversation
for another day.
The point
The inclusion of this equipment is not going to change the game in and
of itself. What it does is allow for people to use new ideas, to
project old and new sounds, and to look at the creation of a
coordinated program with a new eye; with additional possibilities.
Will good people use it well –- of course. Will those with a
poor show be able to save it through amplification -- good luck!
The Audience –- What will they think!!!!!!!
When looking at this question, we have to determine the audience of
yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Yesterday -- The Classic Audience of 1975 that continues to dominate
some of today’s conversation will not like this. These people
want drum corps the way they remember it and I am very appreciative of
this thought process. I too like drum corps as it was and is, but I am
also aware that something needs to change.
This addition would change that product. The problem in catering to
these people -- they are a diminishing group in terms of numbers.
Personally, I love them, I want to make them leap from their seats,
but for the sake of tomorrow, and we cannot use this class of people
only as the opinion makers for our performing groups.
RAMD will not care for this idea. Some Alumni will not care for this
idea.
Some fans will threaten their support and curse any action.
We need to move on in the face of vocal disagreement. It is our
responsibility to create a tomorrow for the kids who want to be a part
of this activity. We need to do what we believe to be right, we need
to hold to the values of creativity that made drum corps what it is
today. Equal shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key.
Today -- When we go to Texas we see the possibility. The 11,000 people
in the stands are predominantly students. They watch MTV, they listen
to Rock and Rap, they do not attend the opera, they read Seventeen,
and they look at drum corps, when we are at out best, as " Rock Stars
for Bands". We give credence to what THEY DO. We are indeed, a
personification of what is possible.
They love the excellence of drum corps. These kids love to see the
THROW DOWN; they want us to go fast and play loud, and to let them
have FUN.
None of this will change. The introverted pondering production will be
the same, and the jovial, fun; fast paced, crowd-pleasing extravaganza
will be that again -- just more so.
In my opinion, we need to recognize that kids are in the stands. They
grow up plugged in. We can show them it is not a bad thing. Not a bad
thing at all.
Tomorrow –- Our audience is declining. We have the facts.
This in mind, a reasonable evaluation would be that the young people
are not coming into the stands to replace those who depart for reasons
of their doing, and simply because they are called from this world.
There are 20,000 marching bands; there are 2 million young people in
marching bands; DCI needs to go after these young people as our
primary audience.
There is no question. Marching music is not going to be a mainstream
activity indeed we are moving more towards being a relic of a bygone
age.
As we reposition ourselves we need to be COOL. The more we can show
that MUSIC IS COOL, the better are our chances of being around, the
better is the opportunity to affect the ages, the greater is the
possibility for a revitalization of what we all hold as good within
the current activity --- excellence and excitement (sometimes).
Time Frame
By voting yes, we say yes to electronics and amplification beginning
with the summer of 2003.
Compromise
Coming from a guy who wanted the corps limit increased to 170 and
settled for 135 with joy, there is room for compromise. I have tried
to keep the breadth of the proposals controlled so as not to startle
anyone. Of course there is room for discussion as long as the final
product is of some value, some change, and some intrigue.
And in the end…
I would like to think that over time, those with the power to bring
DCI and the participating corps to greater heights, will consider that
the inclusion of instruments, electronics, and the amplification of
such is but a step in our evolution.
Many corps are the best, the absolute best in the world of marching
music. As such, we have the opportunity to affect tens and thousands
of young people per year. We are the models of greatness.
As I see it, that model should not be afraid of trying to do new
things. Instead, as the leaders we should be "reaching for the sky."
We should show all that the trait of a true winner includes learning
to adapt to the world, not being afraid of change, and indeed, making
decisions within the context of change that are good for the
individual.
The following paradox is worth examining:
What I am asking is that we all be allowed, some day, to do whatever
we think is best for our groups. If the purpose of the activity is
youth development, and the intention of the product is excellence and
entertainment, all I am asking for, is the chance for all to do this
in whatever form or fashion they find acceptable.
The other side of this argument is that we need to be "all-acoustic".
We cannot use this, and we cannot use this, and indeed, we must all be
the same, live with the same restrictions, and grow only in prescribed
ways.
Which position is the more radical?
Which the most confining?
Which celebrates the greatness of people, instructors, judges and
adults, and which looks to control us from our own bad ideas.
For many years the proposals I have presented have asked those with
power to allow for a greater degree of freedom .It has bee a tough
road to say the least. We are buried in our traditions and movement
comes ever so slowly. In the end, time and time again, we move on
because the values of what we offer are timeless. The instrument is
not the defining feature of the activity; it is but a tool.
These proposals will not return DCI to the glory days, if such a time
ever existed. But, together with a new look at marketing, a commitment
to growth and service to all youth, efficient operations, and more and
better leaders and teaching staff indeed we can make a significant
contribution to the world.
Please take a look at allowing those who would like an opportunity to
try a few things, the rights and freedom that seem reasonable. All
this is … is amplification and the use of electronic
instruments. Simple, easy, and very possible.
Respectfully submitted.
George J. Hopkins
1/12/02
Vincent Ferrera
> "The 2002 Version --- Effort #12 (I do believe)
>
> Presented by George Hopkins
<snip>
> I would love to hear the tremendous contribution available from a
> conga drum.
Conga drums are illegal in DCI?
> Perhaps someday we might enjoy the sound of steel drums, and all
> ethnic percussion, instruments that today are lost in the volume of
> the acoustical performance, and the big open arena.
Many corps have used "ethnic percussion", most forms of which, by the
way, are acoustical.
> And on and on and on. Feel free to add – many creators within
> the activity are looking for the opportunity to do more than I can
> ever describe or envision.
Maybe they could look outside the activity. Who is stopping them?
<more snipping>
> The Audience –- What will they think!!!!!!!
>
> When looking at this question, we have to determine the audience of
> yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
>
> Yesterday -- The Classic Audience of 1975 that continues to dominate
> some of today’s conversation will not like this. These people
> want drum corps the way they remember it and I am very appreciative of
> this thought process. I too like drum corps as it was and is, but I am
> also aware that something needs to change.
>
> This addition would change that product. The problem in catering to
> these people -- they are a diminishing group in terms of numbers.
> Personally, I love them, I want to make them leap from their seats,
> but for the sake of tomorrow, and we cannot use this class of people
> only as the opinion makers for our performing groups.
>
> RAMD will not care for this idea. Some Alumni will not care for this
> idea.
> Some fans will threaten their support and curse any action.
>
> We need to move on in the face of vocal disagreement. It is our
In other words, we need to "grow" the activity by first alienating the
people who love it the way it is (and was).
<yet more cutting>
> There are 20,000 marching bands; there are 2 million young people in
> marching bands; DCI needs to go after these young people as our
> primary audience.
And there are roughly 6 billion people not in marching bands. Why not
go after that potential audience?
> There is no question. Marching music is not going to be a mainstream
> activity indeed we are moving more towards being a relic of a bygone
> age.
It never was mainstream. Neither is classical music, yet is somehow
manages to persist.
> As we reposition ourselves we need to be COOL. The more we can show
> that MUSIC IS COOL, the better are our chances of being around, the
Education is the art of getting young people to appreciate the finer
things in life. You have to elevate their minds, not sink to the
mentality of a 14 year-old.
<more cutting>
> The following paradox is worth examining:
>
> What I am asking is that we all be allowed, some day, to do whatever
> we think is best for our groups. If the purpose of the activity is
> youth development, and the intention of the product is excellence and
> entertainment, all I am asking for, is the chance for all to do this
> in whatever form or fashion they find acceptable.
>
> The other side of this argument is that we need to be "all-acoustic".
> We cannot use this, and we cannot use this, and indeed, we must all be
> the same, live with the same restrictions, and grow only in prescribed
> ways.
First of all, this isn't a paradox. Second, you have to have some
common threads that run through the activity. If everyone is out there
doing their own thing in the name of creativity, then how do we know
that they are part of the same activity?
> because the values of what we offer are timeless. The instrument is
> not the defining feature of the activity; it is but a tool.
Drum and Bugle corps. Hmm, seems to me the instruments do kinda define
the activity, just a little bit.
> Please take a look at allowing those who would like an opportunity to
> try a few things, the rights and freedom that seem reasonable. All
> this is … is amplification and the use of electronic
> instruments. Simple, easy, and very possible.
No one is denying Hopkins or any group he is associated with the "right"
to do whatever they want. If he wants to create a new form of
entertainment, let him go right ahead. The people involved with Star
did it, and drum corps people almost universally applauded there
efforts. Hey, here's an idea, maybe we can have both: traditional drum
corps on the one hand, and, on the other, drum corps-inspired theatrical
productions that aren't bound by any of the traditional "rules". In
nature, evolution adds news species as it retains older ones. It's
called biodiversity. Why can't Hopkins go form a new kind of
drum-corps-based entertainment and leave the old one alone? What is he
afraid of?
NeoCervantes
An Annual Exercise
"The 2002 Version --- Effort #12 (I do believe)
"Equal shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key."
I'm sure many will parse the hell out of this entire post with cuts and
pastes and quips to try to tear it down, but all I need is a little music
history.
Composers of the late 19th century/early 20th century were obviously
very big on innovation, but what some may not recognize is that most all of
their innovations were encapsulated within traditional boundries in order to
make the innovations understandable/palatable; also because that is what the
great masters of the past had given them and, in their awe would never
wholly discard it. Anyway, the beginning of these innovations was also the
beginning of the decline of the audiences of "classical" music. It seemed
that the more innovation there was, the more people there were that turned
their ears to popular music and jazz (not that these are bad, just that
people turned away). This decline in audience came to a head with the
advent of serial music (which is ONLY understood through traditions of the
past, in form, not notes) of Arnold Schoenberg who went so far as to
proclaim his music as THE FUTURE no matter how little it was understood or
wanted in the present (sound like anyone else we know?). Well, we have all
seen how that turned out. Perhaps the parallel here are not exact,
comparison a little loose, the analogy not perfect, but I believe the
essence of truth is there. I am a young man who wants to participate in
this activity and finds it perfect the way it is (in terms of resources
available). The one point I am in agreement with here is that designers are
not geniuses. The problem with this that they should be. We should expect
a lot more from some of the designers out there in my opinion. Some of the
shows in recent times have in my opinion sucked and were quite boring (and
dang it Phantom, do more drill like '89 and less like '96!!!).
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong . . .
Carpettguyy7
GeorgeEDixon
>Date: 1/17/2002 7:48 PM Eastern
>(belch)
>
I raise your "belch" with a barf
Your best fiend
1) I am pretty wired. I can build computers, and I have little problem
installing software on my computers and such. I use and have used
scientific equipment that is on the cutting edge of science. I am a geek
basically. But, I don't see the benefit of electronic additions to the
activity. There are other was to make the pit instruments louder if that
is the goal, and amplificaiton of the human voice is unnecessary, IMO.
It may seem like a doomsaying, but if this proposal passes, then drum
corps will soon become a complete marching band with woodwinds. It will
not be major leap from making saxophone sounds with a keyboard to having
saxophones on the field along with flutes and other such instruments.
One of the things that makes drum corps unique for me is the full brass
aspect of the activity. This change will just take away from the
uniqueness. Whether it will spell the death knell of DCI and groups like
the Cadets is uncertain, but it will be certain that I will not care
about this more mainstream representation.
2) Change for the sake of change is not appropriate. If George could
cite other groups that did a parallel change, then he might have a case
for this change. But, claiming that the genius of drum corps is stifled
by not having electronic instruments is stupid, IMO. If you are a
genius, then you certainly can effect massive change within a set
framework. If you are not a genius or not very good, then you will often
hide behind change to take you to the next level which you will never
reach.
There is still a great deal of room for innovation within the DCI realm
with the rules are they are now. If someone is bored with the
restrictions, then they should take they corps outside the current
governing body or they should leave the acitivity themselves.
3) There will be no new govering body until the corps under the umbrella
choose to leave. These are the corps making these changes. So, why would
they leave something they have changed?
This type of argument is akin to people complaining about the seeding
for DCA championships that occur *every* year. The corps make the rules.
So, I fail to see how anyone can complain that their corps got screwed
since the rules are available ahead of time. If DCI makes the rules, one
would hope that this is a solution to the problems that DCI corps
endure. If the changes are merely some misguided attempt, then the
governing body will die due to mismanagement like many corps that have
died in the past. If the activity is worh maintaining, then it will
continue in a new form perhaps with DCA or the Garden State Cooperative
or another circuit.
4) The choice is simple. DCI control their own corps. If one wants to
follow a different paradim, then junior corps will peel off to start
their own circuit much like how DCI formed in the first place. BUt, if
there is no desire by junior corps to leave the DCI umbrella, then there
will be no new circuit.
Steve
5) I, also, find it interesting that the Cadets spend $35000 every few
years to get new uniforms. I wonder if this is really needed. Has there
been significant changes to the colors or the style of uniform? If not,
why this turn over of uniforms? I can understand the guard changing
uniforms somewhat, but the corps uniforms should last longer than 3-4
years if taken care of. It sounds like the Cadets are getting ripped off
on their uniforms.
"The world is full of Kings and Queens who blind your eyes,
then steal your dreams... It's Heaven and Hell!" - Ronnie James Dio
OrlandoMike4
>marching bands; DCI needs to go after these young people as our
>primary audience.
Now there is a group with lots of disposable income!
OrlandoMike4
Listen to BD's DVD Design team selection. Thats worth a big ole barf!
WheelerAnd
original to add, but I do want to add my voice to those who are speaking
against the inclusion of electronic instruments. I especially like the comment
that if corps want to go outside the boundaries of what drum and bugle corps is
all about, they should go a different route, like Star. There is an outlet for
that kind of innovation and variety, but the drum and bugle corps activity has
and needs to maintain a unique identity.
As to the argument of attracting younger audiences, I think the reality is
this: Most young people who are not marchers themselves or friends/family of
marchers simply aren't going to be that interested in the activity no matter
what instruments you put in it. Kids who like the hard rock-type sounds simply
aren't going to appreciate the complexity and pageantry of drum corps. I know
that's a sweeping statement and there would of course be exceptions, but I
think as a rule it's true.
It's certainly true that the activity needs to be open to some change - any
activity that is totally closed to any innovation will certainly die. But that
doesn't mean that any given change is necessarily good. What we need to
analyze is, would this particular change be good for the activity? My answer
is, No, it would not. In fact, I'd really HATE to see electronic instruments
introduced. But here's my main concern. What percentage of drum corps fans
even know this is being discussed? DCW readers probably do, and those who have
happened across this newsgroup or maybe the Cavies website. How big a
percentage is that? And what is DCI doing to try to identify what the fans and
corps members actually want?
I've read maybe a dozen postings on this so far, both here and on the Cavies'
website. All have been opposed to the idea. That doesn't mean that everyone
is opposed - I obviously haven't read everything. But there's obviously a
considerable percentage of people who are strongly - and I mean, strongly -
opposed to this change. Is DCI listening? Does that small group of people who
will end up voting on this have any way of knowing what we think?
Here's what I would like to see: table this proposal for a year. Give fans,
corps members, and alums a chance to express opinions in a way that can be
quantified. Maybe even hold some "town hall" type meetings. Find out what
people want. Then come back next year and vote on it. Make no mistake - once
the door is opened, it will be very tough to close. There would be absolutely
NO harm in waiting a year on this and giving the people who really care about
the activity a chance to have some input.
I have no way of knowing if any DCI official-types will read this, but if you
do - please, please, give us a chance on this one. It's a very emotional issue
to many people - I've seen some postings that were barely coherent, people were
so upset over it. I've also seen others that were well-reasoned, and I hope
this one is. But PLEASE do not ignore the fans on this one. Give us a chance.
Thanks,
Andrew
Chuck Naffier
"OrlandoMike4" <orland...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117221424...@mb-ch.aol.com...
May I humbly suggest going to this particular link and checking out the
information:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/
$150 Billion in disposable income makes this (the teen market) one of the
most sought after markets in America today.
Not preaching -- just giving resources for those interested enough to find
out more.
Chuck Naffier
Eric Miller
A thought along those same lines....
THroughout music history, there is a pattern of form vs. content.
Basically, which is more important, the music itself? (How the piece
is composed, the mechanics of it) or the meaning of the music? (what
it's portraying)
The emphasis has swung back and forth pretty consistantly. But in the
20th century something happened. It went to far. With the advent of
12 tone rows, serialism, chance music, etc, music went so far to the
"form" side of thing, with no comprehendable meaning to anyone without
a degree in music theory, that the masses revolted. hence popular
music. Music very heavy on meaning, and very simplistic in form.
That rift, coupled with the decrease of music education in public
schools, turned what was once considered mainstream music into
something that the average person has no knowledge of, and no desire
to learn about.
You can see this same situation happening on drum corps. 20th century
music was music composed for other composers, and we are starting to
see corps shows designed for other designers. The result? The person
sitting in the stands is more and more likely to say "Huh?" after a
corps show.
Innovation is not always a bad thing, but it is not necessary for the
growth of the activity. There are other mediums that accommodate what
this proposal wants, and if designers really want electronics, why
don't they design for those venues instead?
-Eric Miller
Americanos Soprano 1997-1998
Americanos Mellophone 1999
Madison Scouts Mellophone 2000-2001
Lee Rudnicki
Although I do happen to think that the addition of electronics could make the
activity more marketable, your rationale for doing so, and the concept of
giving up on the activities current fan base in favor of band kids in Texas is
borderline delusional, and represents one guaranteed way to fold more corps ...
which we [the activity] have gotten pretty collectively good at lately, no?
I now have considerably less faith in the people running the activity than I
had about two hours ago ... which wasn't much.
Lee Rudnicki
OrlandoMike4
>most sought after markets in America today.
When a teen ager can hop on a plane, rent a car, and drive himself to dci for
three days then that income becomes interisting. Untill then they will only
spend that cash on sneekers.
Michael Cahill
> An Annual Exercise
> "The 2002 Version --- Effort #12 (I do believe)
Before I dig into this, a simple question.
In any of the 12 attempts were the members of the corps
asked or polled about these changes?
> The Conservative Approach
> First of all, the intention of these two proposals is to allow for
> the corps of DCI, those who wish to, to utilize the basics of
> amplification and electronic instruments.
The same tired "It's just an option" argument. Pits were just
an option. So were most instrumental additions. They all became
standard necessities which increased cost in varying degrees.
I'd have more respect for the proponents of these changes if
they'd stop forwarding faulty rationales like this.
> The Creative Logic
> There is a school of thought that says true genius arrives when we
> confine the creator, forcing rules and limitations upon the product.
> Only in this way, say some, can we see who indeed is truly a master.
>
> Although a fine philosophy, one might point to the world of drum
> corps and say, "alas, I can see we have very few geniuses devoting
> their skills to the world of marching music".
So all that is keeping geniuses from pouring in to instruct corps is
electronics and woodwinds? Bands have had these for decades.
Where is all the genius?
> I have tried to tell stories without words,
If you really want to tell stories, why not work in an medium that is
capable of telling stories - the theater, film and literature all come
to mind. They're all designed from the ground up to tell stories.
> and I have wished to be able to direct the audience to the
> intention of a magnificent idea.
What magnificent idea are you going to cover in 11 minutes on a
football field? When did simply playing music become so passé?
> I would like to someday see and/or hear:
>
> Keyboard players who attack the instrument at all times with the
> grace and sophistication anticipated by instrument and mallet
> designers.
I suggest you go to a concert hall - the setting these instruments
were designed to be played in. If you're talking about their application
in drum corps, I direct you to SCV and Cavalier pits almost any year.
Superb technique, excellent clarity and all without pounding the
instruments to death.
> The sound of a triangle, wind chimes, or woodblock, at times other
> than those where the winds are forced to play at pppppp.
The following can be heard clearly with horns well above ppppppp:
Woodblock - Cavaliers 1986/7 : Variations on a Korean Folk Song
- Your own Cadets 1991: Short Ride in a Fast Machine
Chimes - SCV 1986/7: Pictures at an Exhibition
Truing - Phantom Regiment 1984: Armenian Dances
That's the short list.
> I would like to hear a show about water, and be able to hear
> the crash of the waves interspersed with music.
Bill Cook dreamed of many things the idiom of drum corps didn't
contain. He smartly went and created his vision elsewhere.
What is stopping you from creating your dream ensemble?
If the prospective audience is a large as you say, it should be
a snap.
> I would love to hear the tremendous contribution available
> from a conga drum.
Find a tape of The San Jose Raiders 1983. Entire snare line
marched and played congas instead of snares. NO problem
hearing them without amps.
> Perhaps someday we might enjoy the sound of steel drums,
> and all ethnic percussion, instruments that today are lost in
> the volume of the acoustical performance, and the big open arena.
Steel Drums - SCV 1983: Entire drum solo melody was played on
steel drums. NO PROBLEM hearing them AT ALL without amps.
Feel free to list ANY ethnic percussion instrument you don't
think we've heard without amps. More than likely we can
find it already used and heard in drum corps.
> Fiscal Responsibility
An oxymoron in DCI.
Be financially responsible. Don't buy what you can't afford.
BTW, we're adding a bunch of instruments. We'll call them options
but they're really not since you'll have to get them to remain
competitive. We realize this will force many of you out of the
game. That's cool because you've been holding us down for too
long anyway.
> Remember now, the use of these technologies is not mandatory.
Same was said for pits, two valves and Bb/F horns. Watch the latter
become standard just as the previous two did. Again, I'd have more
respect for proponents of change and their argument if this bogus
rationale was dropped.
> Competitive Balance
>
> There are reasons for this -- indeed in drum corps, we are not built
> for parity, but alas, this is a conversation for another day.
Way to skirt the major issue.
If there was a serious discussion on competitive parity,
instrumental "option" proposals go out the door. You can't
have parity when some groups get to add toys to their show
while others can't afford it.
> The inclusion of this equipment is not going to change the game
> in and of itself.
Scoring won't be affected? Tour fees? The sound of the idiom?
What part of "the game" isn't affected?
> What it does is allow for people to use new ideas, to project old
> and new sounds, and to look at the creation of a coordinated
> program with a new eye; with additional possibilities.
Maybe the people who need this new gear have just been doing
drum corps far too long. I suggest entirely "new eyes", staff
that hasn't been doing drum corps for 20+ years. When do the
new guys get a chance?
This is one of the most amusing paradoxes in all this. The guys
who tell us we have to change or die have been doing drum corps
for over two decades. Unfortunately the evolution doesn't extend
to management and some staff members - that can stay the same
year after year.
> Yesterday -- The Classic Audience of 1975 that continues to
> dominate some of today's conversation will not like this. These
> people want drum corps the way they remember it and I am very
> appreciative of this thought process. I too like drum corps as it was
> and is, but I am also aware that something needs to change.
May I suggest staff that has been around too long?
> The problem in catering to these people -- they are a diminishing
> group in terms of numbers.
They're all 80 and about to pass away?
> Personally, I love them, I want to make them leap from their seats,
> but for the sake of tomorrow, and we cannot use this class of people
> only as the opinion makers for our performing groups.
Then poll your members. See how much they want to see electronics,
amplification and woodwinds in drum corps. I know the Cadets were
asked if they wanted WW a few years ago. The resounding answer
was "no". Why didn't you listen?
> We need to move on in the face of vocal disagreement. It is our
> responsibility to create a tomorrow for the kids who want to be
> a part of this activity.
And that tomorrow MUST come at a greater cost to fewer participants.
> We need to do what we believe to be right, we need to hold to the
> values of creativity that made drum corps what it is today. Equal
> shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key.
Mr. Hopkins, I'd like to suggest that you investigate the number of
pipe bands in the US. You'll find they outnumber corps by at least
tenfold. They haven't added instrumentation beyond pipes and drums.
Why is it that pipe bands can thrive without all this change? Perhaps
because they aren't attempting to be something they're not.
> In my opinion, we need to recognize that kids are in the stands. They
> grow up plugged in. We can show them it is not a bad thing. Not a bad
> thing at all.
You say these kids watch MTV. Do you watch MTV? They run a show
called UNPLUGGED - where bands come on and do their music with
acoustic instruments. Nutty, huh?
> Our audience is declining. We have the facts.
Please share these facts.
> This in mind, a reasonable evaluation would be that the young people
> are not coming into the stands to replace those who depart for reasons
> of their doing, and simply because they are called from this world.
People have left because they don't like the product or it has become
too expensive. This isn't something of their own doing, it's the doing
of staffs and management who ignore what the fans ask for.
If there were more corps, there would be more alumni to attend shows.
These proposals, along with your Supergroup Plan, leave the activity
with less corps. I don't see how that helps attendance.
> There are 20,000 marching bands; there are 2 million young
> people in marching bands;
Of which 1,995,000 are already getting what they need from BOA,
USSBA, TOB, etc. What you're suggesting is duplication - never a
smart marketing move.
> DCI needs to go after these young people as our primary audience.
The future of DCI is built around 2 million band members? These
high school and college kids are going to fly to see the big regionals?
> There is no question. Marching music is not going to be a
> mainstream activity indeed we are moving more towards
> being a relic of a bygone age.
Again, see pipe bands. Haven't changed, haven't added all the COOL
instruments, yet they still thrive. Their existence and success
disproves the "change or die" mantra.
> As we reposition ourselves we need to be COOL.
I guarantee if you try to sell drum corps by calling it COOL
you'll lose 95% of teens in the first minute.
> Many corps are the best, the absolute best in the world of marching
> music. As such, we have the opportunity to affect tens and thousands
> of young people per year. We are the models of greatness.
I think giving ANY young person a chance to perform, not just those
with talent, is a far greater thing than building "models of greatness".
In fact, I think the attention given to only the top corps is one of the
biggest problems in drum corps.
> Which position is the more radical?
The first, particularly in a competitive activity. Try to get
NASCAR to allow teams to use anything they want in their
cars. Won't happen - that would destroy any equality in the
competition. Same is true for any competitive activity.
> Which the most confining?
The first, given the number of corps that will fold with each
added instrument and the cost that accompanies it. 10 SuperGroups
is far more confining than the 65 or so we have left. It leaves no
place to march for those without immense training in high school.
> Which celebrates the greatness of people, instructors, judges
> and adults, and which looks to control us from our own bad ideas.
Nothing is stopping you from departing as Star did to build your
dream ensemble, other than you.
> The instrument is not the defining feature of the activity; it is
> but a tool.
This is your philosophy of drum corps. Why can't you understand
or respect the fact that others don't share it. They find that the
instrument is far more than just a tool - it defines the sound of
the activity and they love that sound.
> All this is; is amplification and the use of electronic instruments.
> Simple, easy, and very possible.
For the corps that can get free gear. I'm not interested in a DCI
that makes sure those that already have, get more.
Regards,
Michael Cahill
Michael Cahill
Chuck Naffier wrote:
> May I humbly suggest going to this particular link and checking out the
> information:
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/
>
> $150 Billion in disposable income makes this (the teen market) one of the
> most sought after markets in America today.
>
> Not preaching -- just giving resources for those interested enough to find
> out more.
What % of that $150 Billion do the 2 Million MB members make up?
How many of the 2 Million come to corps because we have Korgs?
Regards,
Michael Cahill
Jeffsjetta
Ron in Vegas
>
> A marching member of the corps must do the mixing of the different
> inputs within the confines of the current field and. Coaching is
> acceptable.
Coaching *during the performance* is acceptable?
To whom?
Can the rest of the instructional staff coach from the sidelines during
performances now, too?
Heh...
Anyway:
>
> Rationale and Discussion
>
> The Conservative Approach
> First of all, the intention of these two proposals is to allow for the
> corps of DCI, those who wish to, to utilize the basics of
> amplification and electronic instruments. Although the author would
> favor a " wide-open" approach to diversity, for the sake of the
> masses, the strong suggestion is that we move forward with our feet
> firmly on the ground.
> If, after some time with the basics, people begin to see the
> possibility for quality performance, then perhaps these very proposals
> will be revisited.
I suggest pursuing that Exhibition Class thing you pushed through last time...
The only way this would be acceptable is if it had no affect on the score...
But, like the "voluntary use" of Bbs, that won't happen.
In the end, those corps who either won't use them or can't afford them will
suffer in their overall placement...
(GE being the biggest category in the scoring...)
>
> These proposals have passed the instructors’ caucuses year after
> year, and in fact, even within the management centered Rules Congress
> Vote, there is acceptance.
How have the Business Managers felt about it?
>
> The Creative Logic
> There is a school of thought that says true genius arrives when we
> confine the creator, forcing rules and limitations upon the product.
> Only in this way, say some, can we see who indeed is truly a master.
>
> Although a fine philosophy, one might point to the world of drum corps
> and say, "alas, I can see we have very few geniuses devoting their
> skills to the world of marching music".
Nor will you ever see them, electronics or not...
In the meantime, you're admitting that:
1) Those designing now are inferior to what you would like...
2) They can't continue to produce without fundamental changes in the tools
available to them...
> I have tried to tell stories without words, I have worked to balance
> acoustic sounds that are not meant to be balanced, and yes I have
> lived a life without the inclusion of percussion accessories. I have
> pretended to hear the Latin Percussion on the front sideline, I have
> watched in admiration as keyboard players perfect the art of overhead
> slams, I have prayed in vain for the sound of a saxophone in a grand
> jazz ballad, and I have wished to be able to direct the audience to
> the intention of a magnificent idea.
I suggest that you have been picking the wrong material for outdoor
performances...
>
> What am I hoping to achieve with this change?
>
> I would like to make it possible within the activity, for some new
> developments. Here listed are a few, granted my thoughts alone. Indeed
> giving credit to the minds of the drum corps designers, albeit not
> geniuses J , there is much, much more that is possible.
There you go, insulting your Staff again...
Heh...
>
> I would like to someday see and/or hear:
>
> Keyboard players who attack the instrument at all times with the grace
> and sophistication anticipated my instrument and mallet designers.
> The sound of a triangle, wind chimes, or woodblock, at times other
> than those where the winds are forced to play at pppppp.
You don't listen to SCV much, do you...
Heh...
>
> A show about America, where the words and quotes of great men and
> women are included within the production. Combined with the great
> sounds of brass and percussion, the overriding effect is magnificent.
So now you want a James Earl Jones voice-over?
That's silly...
>
> I would like to hear a show about water, and be able to hear the crash
> of the waves interspersed with music.
Cavies 2000...
>
> I would love to hear the tremendous contribution available from a
> conga drum.
Hawthorne Caballeros, back to the mid-60s...
>
> Perhaps someday we might enjoy the sound of steel drums, and all
> ethnic percussion, instruments that today are lost in the volume of
> the acoustical performance, and the big open arena.
SCV again... You really should listen to them sometime...
I have yet to see any "ethnic percussion" instrument that can't be heard on a
football field...
>
> And on and on and on. Feel free to add – many creators within
> the activity are looking for the opportunity to do more than I can
> ever describe or envision.
Fine, then let them go elsewhere instead of changing Drum Corps to Elsewhere...
Chess Tournaments are also a niche activiy that is rabidly followed by those who
love chess.
The "powers that be" in the NCF don't propose rules allowing a competitor to
yell "King Me!" or "Go Fish" to make chess more palatible to those who don't
follow the game...
Of course, they don't have side interests in checkers companies, wither...
>
> Fiscal Responsibility
>
> The expenditures a corps will make for amplification and electronic
> percussion will vary. One should plan $5000 - $10,000 to get into the
> game, and as the comfort level increases, add on equipment would be a
> possibility.
$5,000-$10,000 extra expense is fiscal responsibility?
I'd like you to sit in on my next salary evaluation...
Heh...
Are members' fees going to increase again to cover these additional costs?
Or are you just going to charge the members actually using this equipment more?
>
> The cost is related to the acquisition of capital items and should be
> considered as an expense over 3-5 years based on depreciation
> schedules. Does this make the initial outlay any easier? Well, that
> depends on whether one was to use cash or finance the price tag.
So, let's see:
An addition 5-10 grand, on top of the increase to go to Bbs in the past 3
years...
Yep, fiscal responsibility - at least for those who get price breaks, I
suppose...
>
> Either way, there is a cost, but it is not extreme. The Cadets for
> example, spend, $35,000 every three to four years to replace uniforms
> (In the old days, every 10-15 years).
How do you justtify the cost, if they only last 1/3 as long?
How much of that is new Color Guard costuming every year?
>
> Remember now, the use of these technologies is not mandatory. Good is
> god and bad is bad. All one has to do is witness a few band shows to
> see this truth in action.
Bands are not drum corps, anymore than the Yankees are great hockey players...
For one who has been in this activity since the 80s, I'm surprised you refuse to
recognize the distinction...
>
> There is also the clear opportunity to share the cost with area bands.
> Joint purchasing, rental, bartering, etc … It is all possible;
> far more possible than some of the expenditures we make today -- like
> filling four buses full of fuel.
Ah, *now* we're getting to it...
It's ultimately a BOA thing...
I'm sure those corps not associated as deeply with band circuits can appreciate
this...
>
> Competitive Balance
>
> I could answer with the reality-based response -- "No Worse Than
> Today"
> The Cavaliers, BD. SVC, and the Cadets hold to the top positions.
Due in part to being able to afford the latest gizmos, and having members on the
Board who decide what and how the judges judge...
> The
> Madison Scouts and Phantom although perhaps slipping a bit in
> occasional years competitively remain as standard bearers in the
> activity, the Crossmen, the Blucoats and the Colts, continue to hold
> top 12 positions in most years and; overall, the balance of power is
> remarkably the same. There are reasons for this -- indeed in drum
> corps, we are not built for parity, but alas, this is a conversation
> for another day.
But we were once, remember?
>
> The point
>
> The inclusion of this equipment is not going to change the game in and
> of itself. What it does is allow for people to use new ideas, to
> project old and new sounds, and to look at the creation of a
> coordinated program with a new eye; with additional possibilities.
> Will good people use it well –- of course. Will those with a
> poor show be able to save it through amplification -- good luck!
Sounds like the old "you don't have to ground your tymps, or use Bbs" nonsense
to me.
Realistically, those who do this are going to see a benefit in their
placement...
Those who don't will suffer for it...
>
> The Audience –- What will they think!!!!!!!
>
> When looking at this question, we have to determine the audience of
> yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
>
> Yesterday -- The Classic Audience of 1975 that continues to dominate
> some of today’s conversation will not like this. These people
> want drum corps the way they remember it and I am very appreciative of
> this thought process. I too like drum corps as it was and is, but I am
> also aware that something needs to change.
You keep using 1975 as a base. Why not 1985 or 1995?
Because your conclusions will be weaker?
>
> This addition would change that product. The problem in catering to
> these people -- they are a diminishing group in terms of numbers.
> Personally, I love them, I want to make them leap from their seats,
> but for the sake of tomorrow, and we cannot use this class of people
> only as the opinion makers for our performing groups.
"This class of people"?
Sounds like another thinly-veiled insult to all Alumni - including *yours*...
>
> RAMD will not care for this idea. Some Alumni will not care for this
> idea.
> Some fans will threaten their support and curse any action.
But Virgil says RAMD don't mean squat...
Heh...
>
> We need to move on in the face of vocal disagreement. It is our
> responsibility to create a tomorrow for the kids who want to be a part
> of this activity. We need to do what we believe to be right, we need
> to hold to the values of creativity that made drum corps what it is
> today. Equal shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key.
Who is "we"?
Aren't the other Directors just a touched miffed by your presumption of speaking
for all of them?
>
> Today -- When we go to Texas we see the possibility. The 11,000 people
> in the stands are predominantly students. They watch MTV, they listen
> to Rock and Rap, they do not attend the opera, they read Seventeen,
> and they look at drum corps, when we are at out best, as " Rock Stars
> for Bands". We give credence to what THEY DO. We are indeed, a
> personification of what is possible.
The audience at one show is your basis for changing?
11,000 isn't a big number; how many were at Finals this year?
How about in 1975, which you like to refer to so much?
>
> They love the excellence of drum corps. These kids love to see the
> THROW DOWN; they want us to go fast and play loud, and to let them
> have FUN.
> None of this will change. The introverted pondering production will be
> the same, and the jovial, fun; fast paced, crowd-pleasing extravaganza
> will be that again -- just more so.
Not hardly...
They love the excellence of corps NOW - you know, the accoustic sound...
I doubt that feedback and crackling speakers will give them any added charge...
(pardon the pun)
>
> In my opinion, we need to recognize that kids are in the stands. They
> grow up plugged in. We can show them it is not a bad thing. Not a bad
> thing at all.
The very fact that they are showing up in these numbers to an accoustic
performance NOW should also tell you something...
>
> Tomorrow –- Our audience is declining. We have the facts.
I'm willing to bet the decline coincides with the programming...
>
> This in mind, a reasonable evaluation would be that the young people
> are not coming into the stands to replace those who depart for reasons
> of their doing, and simply because they are called from this world.
Has there been any polling done to determine if electronics and amplification
will have an effect on ticket sales to these young people?
Or are you just "running it up the flagpole to see who salutes"?
Again, the Exhibition Class proposal from two years ago would seem to fit this
"experiment" better...
Why haven't you pursued that avenue for this?
>
> There are 20,000 marching bands; there are 2 million young people in
> marching bands; DCI needs to go after these young people as our
> primary audience.
What hard evidence do you have that these 2 million kids will be more interested
in drum corps because of electronics?
You can put a diamond necklace on a pig - but it's still a pig...
>
> There is no question. Marching music is not going to be a mainstream
> activity indeed we are moving more towards being a relic of a bygone
> age.
And electronics will not alter anything positively...
The niche market you have now is in danger of leaving, and until there's
evidence to the contrary I doubt that these fundamental changes will increase
your fan base...
Again, if you really want to find out, go the Exhibition route first...
>
> As we reposition ourselves we need to be COOL. The more we can show
> that MUSIC IS COOL, the better are our chances of being around, the
> better is the opportunity to affect the ages, the greater is the
> possibility for a revitalization of what we all hold as good within
> the current activity --- excellence and excitement (sometimes).
I thought Bbs were supposed to help make drum corps more attractive to young
people?
(More "cool"?)
Have there been any quantifiable effects of this?
>
> And in the end…
>
> I would like to think that over time, those with the power to bring
> DCI and the participating corps to greater heights, will consider that
> the inclusion of instruments, electronics, and the amplification of
> such is but a step in our evolution.
I notice you never once mention the magnificent human beings who are supposed to
benefit from all this...
I still think this is for the adults, not the kids...
>
> Many corps are the best, the absolute best in the world of marching
> music. As such, we have the opportunity to affect tens and thousands
> of young people per year. We are the models of greatness.
So why change what you are, and what made you great in the first place?
Aren't you taking a *huge* risk?
>
> As I see it, that model should not be afraid of trying to do new
> things. Instead, as the leaders we should be "reaching for the sky."
> We should show all that the trait of a true winner includes learning
> to adapt to the world, not being afraid of change, and indeed, making
> decisions within the context of change that are good for the
> individual.
How are electronics "good for the individual"?
Unless of course, you mean the adults, not the kids...
>
> The following paradox is worth examining:
>
> What I am asking is that we all be allowed, some day, to do whatever
> we think is best for our groups. If the purpose of the activity is
> youth development, and the intention of the product is excellence and
> entertainment, all I am asking for, is the chance for all to do this
> in whatever form or fashion they find acceptable.
Without doing research to find out if this *is* acceptable to the kids, I find
this disingenuous at best...
>
> The other side of this argument is that we need to be "all-acoustic".
> We cannot use this, and we cannot use this, and indeed, we must all be
> the same, live with the same restrictions, and grow only in prescribed
> ways.
The Marines don't take *everybody*, nor do they wear sailor caps...
>
> Which position is the more radical?
>
> Which the most confining?
>
> Which celebrates the greatness of people, instructors, judges and
> adults, and which looks to control us from our own bad ideas.
Including this one?
Heh...
This latest effort only proves that allowing the inmates to run the asylum is...
well, insane...
>
> For many years the proposals I have presented have asked those with
> power to allow for a greater degree of freedom .It has bee a tough
> road to say the least. We are buried in our traditions and movement
> comes ever so slowly. In the end, time and time again, we move on
> because the values of what we offer are timeless. The instrument is
> not the defining feature of the activity; it is but a tool.
>
> These proposals will not return DCI to the glory days, if such a time
> ever existed.
*If* such a time ever existed!?
What is your criteria for "glory days"?
The late 60s/early 70s when Prelims at most major shows took two days?
(Remember when there *were* major shows besides DCIs?)
The late 70s/early 80s when the entire Finals was broadcast?
The last year in Orlando when the seagulls outnumbered the audience?
> But, together with a new look at marketing, a commitment
> to growth and service to all youth, efficient operations, and more and
> better leaders and teaching staff indeed we can make a significant
> contribution to the world.
The marketing I agree with!
But you can improve your marketing strategy without adding amplifiers...
The increase in attendance in California last year, for example, was not because
you, BD and SCV played Bbs...
It was due to getting the word out...
Ultimately, the biggest obstacle to starting and running a drum corps is
money...
Adding *another* "$5,000 to $10,000" to the load is NOT helping anyone...
>
> Please take a look at allowing those who would like an opportunity to
> try a few things, the rights and freedom that seem reasonable. All
> this is … is amplification and the use of electronic
> instruments. Simple, easy, and verypossible.
Again, Exhibition Class or Brass Theater...
Don't change the rules for eveyone because your designers have a mental block...
Abcde Fghij
beat Bb corps???? Yes they did and they played G bugles so think of
another argument. Also there seems not to be a problem with bands using
amplification!! So saying that there will be problems with space or
connections is mute. We all consider Drum corps better then bands so
corps should be able to figure it out!
Sharcast2
Well hell,
How galling. Defending yourself against REAL adversary is one thing.
But hiding behind fake excuses?
Sharon
Daniel Scerpella
with a spineless weasel who is too afraid to sign his or her own name. I
suggest we killfile this tool.
"Abcde Fghij" <rudej...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9485-3C4...@storefull-614.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
www.cozychops.com
>Date: 1/17/02 6:18 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C475BC1...@columbia.edu>
>
>Drum and Bugle corps. Hmm, seems to me the instruments do kinda define
>the activity, just a little bit.
>
Bugles need no amplification. Hmmm....
Chuck Naffier
I don't know, Michael. How many came because of "G" bugles? There,
now that we've cleared up that little misdirection play. . .
I merely suggested looking at the information since good ol' Orlando
Mike implied that teenagers don't have market power.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Chuck Naffier
Chuck Naffier
Ummm. . . what?
Chuck Naffier
Chuck Naffier
I would guess by your reply that you think Finals Week should be the
big money-maker for DCI? All the other shows COMBINE around the
country to FAR outpace the revenue generated by Finals Week. And THAT
is where the teen market comes in. Local band kids don't have to rent
cars, hop on planes, or drive around alone for 3 days to go to a show
on the DCI tour.
Any more clear?
Chuck Naffier
XxFunky1xx
read something on here that represents some sort of rational thinking. It
doesn't happen on here much, so when I read it I'm extremely grateful.
Mark
Catherine
news:e25106d.02011...@posting.google.com...
> Michael Cahill <mca...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:<3C48210E...@mindspring.com>...
> > Chuck Naffier wrote:
> >
> > > May I humbly suggest going to this particular link and checking out
the
> > > information:
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/
> > >
> > > $150 Billion in disposable income makes this (the teen market) one of
the
> > > most sought after markets in America today.
> > >
> > > Not preaching -- just giving resources for those interested enough to
find
> > > out more.
> >
> >
> > What % of that $150 Billion do the 2 Million MB members make up?
> >
> > How many of the 2 Million come to corps because we have Korgs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Michael Cahill
>
>
> I don't know, Michael. How many came because of "G" bugles?
Quite a number of all the people who have marched in drum corps over the
past decades, who preferred drum corps music over what bands were doing.
> There, now that we've cleared up that little misdirection play. . .
Mr. Cahill was using an example. He could have said "how are electronics
going to pull some of that disposable income to the drum & bugle corps
activity - particularly when corps become indistinguishable from many bands"
or some such.
I would add further that drum corps, IMO, is NOT something which ought to be
viewed primarily as a potential pool of money to be tapped by capitalistic
interests who want a piece of the pie. Such may be an effect, but I don't
think it belongs as a motivation for the defining characteristics and values
of this youth and/or adult activity, er... fraternal organizations.
It's always been more a labor of love of merits, marching, one's fellows and
music. It's like churches that have become less about the people, and more
about the politics, power and money. And while the latter is important,
such are the means and not the ends.
-- Catherine
Michael Cahill
> >
> > How many of the 2 Million come to corps because we have Korgs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Michael Cahill
>
> I don't know, Michael. How many came because of "G" bugles?
> There, now that we've cleared up that little misdirection play. . .
That's not a misdirection Chuck. Mr. Hopkins states adding electronics
etc. will bring more members and fans in from the age group mentioned.
Can anyone project how many will come? Were surveys done?
Research? What?
> I merely suggested looking at the information since good ol'
> Orlando Mike implied that teenagers don't have market power.
>
> Nothing more. Nothing less.
Well, to get an accurate number we have to make an estimate
of how many of the 2 Million MB members will come to drum
corps as fans or members and spend their share of the
disposable income figure listed above.
Regards,
Michael Cahill
Catherine
> > George Hopkins...
<snip>
> > I have tried to tell stories without words,
>
> If you really want to tell stories, why not work in an medium that is
> capable of telling stories - the theater, film and literature all come
> to mind. They're all designed from the ground up to tell stories.
>
> > and I have wished to be able to direct the audience to the
> > intention of a magnificent idea.
>
> What magnificent idea are you going to cover in 11 minutes on a
> football field? When did simply playing music become so passé?
How about the magnificent ideas of patriotism, commitment to one's
community, exciting the audience and interacting with them via immediately
accessible music that "grabs the audience by its balls", rudimental
drumming, military equipment handling, more traditional military marching
and drill design styles, and all those other things that always made drum &
bugle corps a SPECIAL and UNIQUE activity?
Hey - does anyone remember the "story" told by 1960 Belleville Black
Knights? 1962 Hawthorne? 1964 St. Kevin's? 1965 Royal Airs? 1966 Velvet
Knights? 1970 Anaheim Kingsmen? 1971 Yankee Rebels at Houston? 1972 Santa
Clara Vanguard? 1974 MANY corps? 1975 Madison Scouts?
Does anyone even CARE about the "story" those shows told??
> > I would like to someday see and/or hear:
> >
> > Keyboard players who attack the instrument at all times with the
> > grace and sophistication anticipated by instrument and mallet
> > designers.
>
> I suggest you go to a concert hall - the setting these instruments
> were designed to be played in. If you're talking about their application
> in drum corps, I direct you to SCV and Cavalier pits almost any year.
> Superb technique, excellent clarity and all without pounding the
> instruments to death.
Hey now - I *love* ballz-out drumming!!! "Grace and sophistication" in drum
corps is LOUD, BALLS-to-the-WALLS, echoing off the back sidelines and
goosebumps at the presentation of the colors.
And frankly, I don't give a flying fickle finger of fate WHAT the instrument
and mallet designers want. I prefer what the FANS and MEMBERS want -
particularly whether OR NOT those members and fans are required to be
"musicians" of ANY stripe before they can "appreciate" drum corps. In fact,
if drum corps DOESN'T please it's local community from ALL walks of life,
all of the many, something is VERY, VERY wrong IMO.
> > The sound of a triangle, wind chimes, or woodblock, at times other
> > than those where the winds are forced to play at pppppp.
>
> The following can be heard clearly with horns well above ppppppp:
>
> Woodblock - Cavaliers 1986/7 : Variations on a Korean Folk Song
> - Your own Cadets 1991: Short Ride in a Fast Machine
>
> Chimes - SCV 1986/7: Pictures at an Exhibition
>
> Truing - Phantom Regiment 1984: Armenian Dances
>
> That's the short list.
I thought that a drum corps pppppp is a 2 on the Richter scale...
> > I would like to hear a show about water, and be able to hear
> > the crash of the waves interspersed with music.
I would like to hear an exciting drum corps show that lifts the entire
stands off their feet - and I want that at least once per show for each and
every marching member. I want each marching member to know what it's like
when people from all walks of life come up to you to tell you how much they
enjoyed the show - and NOT how much they "appreciated" it.
> Bill Cook dreamed of many things the idiom of drum corps didn't
> contain. He smartly went and created his vision elsewhere.
> What is stopping you from creating your dream ensemble?
> If the prospective audience is a large as you say, it should be
> a snap.
You're right, Mr. Cahill - what Mr. Cook did seems appropriate to me. If
what Mr. Hopkins is saying is really what he's after, he oughtta take the
Cadets and be the only game in town...
Geez Loo-eeze!! Perhaps Mr. Hopkins really has other goals... duya think?
> > I would love to hear the tremendous contribution available
> > from a conga drum.
>
> Find a tape of The San Jose Raiders 1983. Entire snare line
> marched and played congas instead of snares. NO problem
> hearing them without amps.
>
> > Perhaps someday we might enjoy the sound of steel drums,
> > and all ethnic percussion, instruments that today are lost in
> > the volume of the acoustical performance, and the big open arena.
>
> Steel Drums - SCV 1983: Entire drum solo melody was played on
> steel drums. NO PROBLEM hearing them AT ALL without amps.
>
> Feel free to list ANY ethnic percussion instrument you don't
> think we've heard without amps. More than likely we can
> find it already used and heard in drum corps.
I'd like to hear ANY snare line today that might stop my yearning to see the
1972 Anaheim Kingsmen line and/or 1974 SCV again... And a drum solo that
would outexcite an audience like, for just one example, the Bridgemen's
blindfold solo.
> > Fiscal Responsibility
>
> An oxymoron in DCI.
#-- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
#-- <pssst - Mr. Cahill - he's speaking about fiscal responsibility for
those who are making the money, honey.>
> Be financially responsible. Don't buy what you can't afford.
>
> BTW, we're adding a bunch of instruments. We'll call them options
> but they're really not since you'll have to get them to remain
> competitive. We realize this will force many of you out of the
> game. That's cool because you've been holding us down for too
> long anyway.
>
> > Remember now, the use of these technologies is not mandatory.
>
> Same was said for pits, two valves and Bb/F horns. Watch the latter
> become standard just as the previous two did. Again, I'd have more
> respect for proponents of change and their argument if this bogus
> rationale was dropped.
Hey - survival of the fittest. No doubt more reasons will be found to blame
those corps that can't adapt to the evolution and are therefore
stuck-in-the-past, fiscally irresponsible and deserve what they get.
<sarcasm off>
> > Competitive Balance
> >
> > There are reasons for this -- indeed in drum corps, we are not built
> > for parity, but alas, this is a conversation for another day.
>
> Way to skirt the major issue.
The "another day" was 30 years ago. Better late than never.
> If there was a serious discussion on competitive parity,
> instrumental "option" proposals go out the door. You can't
> have parity when some groups get to add toys to their show
> while others can't afford it.
Mr. Cahill, you are just making too much sense. You are, no doubt, unable
to understand "vision" and making connections that aren't there... op,
sorry, that's what I do - I forgot!
> > The inclusion of this equipment is not going to change the game
> > in and of itself.
>
> Scoring won't be affected? Tour fees? The sound of the idiom?
> What part of "the game" isn't affected?
Mr. Hopkins says so. And SURELY he only has the best interests of this
activity at heart - which is constantly proven by all his efforts to change
it!! <sarcasm off again...>
> > What it does is allow for people to use new ideas, to project old
> > and new sounds, and to look at the creation of a coordinated
> > program with a new eye; with additional possibilities.
>
> Maybe the people who need this new gear have just been doing
> drum corps far too long. I suggest entirely "new eyes", staff
> that hasn't been doing drum corps for 20+ years. When do the
> new guys get a chance?
>
> This is one of the most amusing paradoxes in all this. The guys
> who tell us we have to change or die have been doing drum corps
> for over two decades. Unfortunately the evolution doesn't extend
> to management and some staff members - that can stay the same
> year after year.
Oh no - quite often staffmembers and judges change quite rapidly -
particularly if they don't do what EVERYONE wants or speak openly in a
contrary fashion to the wisdom of the "evolution" to make drum corps
better - a goal which is so sadly never borne out in fact as evidenced by
how our activity is "flourishing" while pipe bands, for one example, are
doing better than ever with little evolution at all...
> > Yesterday -- The Classic Audience of 1975 that continues to
> > dominate some of today's conversation will not like this.
or 1970, 1965, 1960...
> > These people want drum corps the way they remember it
We want to see drum & bugle corps in the Key of G by people who know how to
march and execute. Period. Line in the sand.
Just because YOU and YOUR advisors feel limited to merely what has been done
in the past by such conditions doesn't mean there aren't many, MANY creative
people out there RIGHT NOW, young AND old, who would be and ARE ready to
accept, meet and probably exceed your expectations and "negativity".
> > and I am very appreciative of this thought process. I too like drum
> > corps as it was and is, but I am also aware that something needs
> > to change.
#-- You say you like it. But obviously you don't LOVE it. And that's your
problem.
#-- I can make quite a few suggested changes...
> May I suggest staff that has been around too long?
<tee>
> > The problem in catering to these people -- they are a diminishing
> > group in terms of numbers.
>
> They're all 80 and about to pass away?
No - Mr. Hopkins is simply pointing to his and others' success in chasing
them away.
> > Personally, I love them, I want to make them leap from their seats,
> > but for the sake of tomorrow, and we cannot use this class of people
> > only as the opinion makers for our performing groups.
>
> Then poll your members. See how much they want to see electronics,
> amplification and woodwinds in drum corps. I know the Cadets were
> asked if they wanted WW a few years ago. The resounding answer
> was "no". Why didn't you listen?
The operative term was "class of people" - meaning EVERYONE are the only
opinion makers that count.
> > We need to move on in the face of vocal disagreement. It is our
> > responsibility to create a tomorrow for the kids who want to be
> > a part of this activity.
A part of THIS activity - that means DRUM & BUGLE CORPS, and not Summer
Brass Bands International.
> And that tomorrow MUST come at a greater cost to fewer participants.
Well, to those of limited abilities and/or vision...
> > We need to do what we believe to be right, we need to hold to the
> > values of creativity that made drum corps what it is today. Equal
> > shares of tradition and innovation, this is the key.
>
> Mr. Hopkins, I'd like to suggest that you investigate the number of
> pipe bands in the US. You'll find they outnumber corps by at least
> tenfold. They haven't added instrumentation beyond pipes and drums.
>
> Why is it that pipe bands can thrive without all this change? Perhaps
> because they aren't attempting to be something they're not.
I will agree with Mr. Hopkins that we need to do what we believe to be
right. And so I am. Time will tell.
> > In my opinion, we need to recognize that kids are in the stands. They
> > grow up plugged in. We can show them it is not a bad thing. Not a bad
> > thing at all.
>
> You say these kids watch MTV. Do you watch MTV? They run a show
> called UNPLUGGED - where bands come on and do their music with
> acoustic instruments. Nutty, huh?
I think teaching kids that they don't NEED to be plugged in is also of great
value - particularly in an activity BUILT on such an acoustic principle.
> > Our audience is declining. We have the facts.
>
> Please share these facts.
Yes, Mr. Hopkins. Please share the facts that prove that the drum & bugle
corps audience is declining due to cultural changes, stuck-in-the-past olde
pharts and/or causes other than the opinion that what we olde pharts are
seeing on today's DCI field are mere shadows of what corps once was and more
and more like bands. Please explain why, alternatively, the alumni movement
is growing strong and DCA was a gas last year - and G.A.S. was a gas last
year...
> > This in mind, a reasonable evaluation would be that the young people
> > are not coming into the stands to replace those who depart for reasons
> > of their doing, and simply because they are called from this world.
>
> People have left because they don't like the product or it has become
> too expensive. This isn't something of their own doing, it's the doing
> of staffs and management who ignore what the fans ask for.
>
> If there were more corps, there would be more alumni to attend shows.
> These proposals, along with your Supergroup Plan, leave the activity
> with less corps. I don't see how that helps attendance.
<Psst - Mr. Cahill - you are again reasoning logically. Mr. Hopkins much
have goals he isn't sharing... and that's not nice.>
And now I'm bored with this post... Too obviously BS on Hopkins' part IMO.
-- Catherine
Jeffsjetta
Then why promote finals to be THE event of the year...have such
outrageous ticket prices...make cd's and videos and DVDs....why not do it from
all the regionals?
Div23fan
>of how many of the 2 Million MB members will come to drum
Perhaps first, we should ask Mr. Hopkins how he arrives at this bloated figure
of 2 million marching band members, or 20,000 marching bands.
MattV5
>
>
>Chuck Naffier
>
You know... in a way this entire idea of amplification and electronics just
mortifies me.. as a mostly "purist" type of dc fan, I'm horrified that some of
the heavyweights in the activity would even suggest it.
But here's where I get a little of that snippety sort of self-gratification:
It seems that the author of the Amp/Elec proposal (I can't make my fingers type
the name) is trying to get back some of the potential (or maybe lost?) market
for the corps activity... and why is this? Corps used to be a much bigger
deal, have a much farther reaching audience, until .... when? I'll be happy to
tell you... until the "musically-elite" got involved and started to write and
arrange crap that not many had even heard of, much less cared about.. even
after they had heard it performed by a corps. For that matter, especially
after it had been performed by a corps. I mean, who arranges Verdi for a
flippin' drum corps?? I know exactly who, and all I can say is... we told you
so. For a long time, we told you so. Now the big boys are trying to reign it
all back in, and are considering ridiculous synth measures in order to do it.
The answer is simple people. You don't need a Korg sponsorship to bring Corps
back to its Glory Days. You simply need to get rid of the
"You're-Just-Too-Ignorant-To-Understand-Real-Music" types.... and take DC back
to the days where The Bottle Dance and Strawberry Soup battled it out for the
title, while the smaller corps entertained during the Summertime.. And The
Livin' Is Easy.
Matt Vennard
The Colts, 82-84
Chris Maher
Well, since you asked. The arranger for the 1950 St. Vincent's Cadets.
Chris
--
Christopher P. Maher
Maher Associates, Inc.
Actuarial and Computer Consulting
Home Page: http://www.maherassociates.com/
E-Mail: ch...@corpsreps.com
corpreps.com - The Drum Corps Repertoire Database
http://www.corpsreps.com
Mike Poche
> You simply need to get rid of the
>"You're-Just-Too-Ignorant-To-Understand-Real-Music" types.... and take DC
>back
>to the days where The Bottle Dance and Strawberry Soup battled it out for the
>title, while the smaller corps entertained during the Summertime.. And The
>Livin' Is Easy.
Damn, thats a little too long to put on a Tee shirt or bumber sticker.
The Other Mike.....................
I purchase tickets and sit in the stands to support ALL the kids.
I choose not to applaude some corps to show my disgust with design teams that
can't see the sun because their heads are so far up their butts.
Chuck Naffier
It might be time to recalibrate your perception a bit I think. You
and I marched together, but you dissappeared for 20 years while I've
continued on in drum corps. Perhaps I can ask you some questions that
you could think about and maybe respond to? It might help me
understand what it is you want and are unhappy with today. I usually
try to use specific examples in order to make sure we're both talking
about the same thing, so please bear with me.
Was it eletist when 27th Lancers played "Crown Imperial"? Was it
eletist when Santa Clara played Clifton Williams' "Fanfare and
Allegro". I mean, who had heard those pieces? Those were BAND
pieces, not anything anyone cared about. "Young Person's Guide to the
Orchestra"?? YIKES!!!
Concerning Verdi (your example), one might ask you how you can stand
up and ask for more "Bottle Dance", yet not realize that in 1979 the
Santa Clara Vanguard opened with "Tuba Mirum" from Verdi's "Requiem"
and closed with. . . yes. . . the "Bottle Dance". If you think about
it, it was never about the "Bottle Dance". . . it was about SANTA
CLARA doing the "Bottle Dance". It would not get the same reaction
if, say, Phantom Regiment had did it.
I, too, have concerns about musical programming today -- I am often
left scratching my head wondering what it was I was supposed to enjoy.
I, too, grew up playing "Summertime", and loved it. Heck, I liked it
so much that I rearranged it 11 years later and helped put the Colts
in Finals.
But let's not confuse the issues. Amplification and electronics do
not go hand in hand with poor programming. We are boring enough just
being acoustic.
Many today in the instructional and management communities are more
concerned with their placing at DCI than in entertaining the crowd.
Oh, lip service is paid to education, entertainment, musical exposure,
etc., but behind it all is usually an attempt to manipulate placing at
the end of the year. Count on it.
I am here to say you can do both. Even with today's music. . . just
look at Cadets, Boston, and Cavaliers as recently as 2000. Look at
Phantom Regiment, Crossmen, Bluecoats, Madison, Cadets, Santa Clara,
and many others in 2001. There have always been "boring" shows, and
always been shows that were the ones to catch every night. That has
not changed. Think about the corps we used to skip when we marched. .
. and the jokes we used to make about "How come THEY get to perform a
35 minute show"? :-)
Again, this has nothing to do with electronics.
Also, not real thrilled with the implied character assasination of
some people who have done some pretty fine things for drum corps over
the years. George Hopkins is the same person who programmed shows
that get people to spontaneously leap out of their seats every year --
including when you and I marched. Wayne Downey is still the man who
put "La Fiesta", "T.O", "Everybody Loves The Blues", "Ya Gotta Try"
and "Channel One Suite" on the field -- and is doing it again. You
may not agree with everything these people do all the time, but
keeping it civil goes a long way toward establishing a dialogue. . .
Want "Strawberry Soup"? Have I got a treat for you. . .
:-)
Chuck Naffier
Colts Alum and current brass arranger
PS - I hope you are well, Matt. I also hope I have not offended you
-- and apologize in advance if I have. I always thought you were a
talented kid (now of course an adult!), and I enjoyed marching with
you in the soprano line. We were good!
mat...@aol.com (MattV5) wrote in message news:<20020123151358...@mb-de.aol.com>...
Jeffsjetta
originally done w/varied instrumentation and put into drum corps. Chuck, you
joke about a Rush show for Bush...I'd love to see a Rush show...w/out the
electronics stuff. Think of all the great classical music that didn't have
strings on the field.....still great stuff, no?
That's what scares many people....adding that stuff in, what makes drum corps
unique? it's already been done w/electronic toys. Gimme an awesome low brass
section playing the beginning of "witch Hunt"......a sop line screaming on
"Spirit of the Radio"....
what's next...Britney? Aguilera? Yuck.